Wiki: Word of Faith forum

[Balance]

interesting. so now you have a revelation that agrees with scripture but it's not what the wiki is about so you won't share. So let us indeed lay your arguement aside.

this is the first sentence.


does anyone wish to modify this statement in any way?

seconded

[J4Jesus]

I can't beleive only Balance and I posted the last 2 days. Where is everyone? I've been here but just waiting for someone to say something

[pdudgeon]

I can't beleive only Balance and I posted the last 2 days. Where is everyone? I've been here but just waiting for someone to say something

it is always good to wait before the Lord.:) when the Spirit moves us i am sure we will go on.

[J4Jesus]

it is always good to wait before the Lord.:) when the Spirit moves us i am sure we will go on.
True but I thought we were wanting to get it done. But as long as what is posted now on here and the sticky that is sufficent for the moment

[Trish1947]

Well I don't know what else to say, I have already agreed. LOL..

[J4Jesus]

(edit)

[Trish1947]

[quote]
THE CREATION OF MAN, HIS FALL AND REDEMPTION
The first man (named Adam in the Bible) was a perfect being created by God. He was endowed with a physical body, and an imortal spirit and soul. As such his spirit and soul were the image of God the Father and God, the Holy Spirit, while his physical body reflected the incarnate Jesus, God the Son. Thus man was made in the likeness and image of God. 1 Cor. 15:45-49.
________

Well I don't agree with this, but does it mean I'm no longer Word of Faith? Isn't it a little too close to saying the first Adam was begotten as Jesus was? Jesus was all God and all man. Adam was not. Adam never once called God his Father, to imply that they were "genetically" linked as in relationship, it would make the scriptures a lie, because the Word says that Jesus was the firstborn of many brethren, He was the only begotten Son of God up until that time.

[DavidPresently]

THE CREATION OF MAN, HIS FALL AND REDEMPTION
The first man (named Adam in the Bible) was a perfect being created by God. He was endowed with a physical body, and an imortal spirit and soul. As such his spirit and soul were the image of God the Father and God, the Holy Spirit, while his physical body reflected the incarnate Jesus, God the Son. Thus man was made in the likeness and image of God. 1 Cor. 15:45-49.

Well I don't agree with this, but does it no longer mean I'm Word of Faith? Isn't it a little too close to saying the first Adam was begotten as Jesus was? Jesus was all God and all man. Adam was not.

I can't agree on it either. It adds what one wants to THINK the first Adam was made like rather than what Scripture says. I repeat, the Scripture never says or alludes to the first Adam being "immortal" anything. Perfect in his creation, yes, but he could die (be tempted by sin and made subject to death by his weakness) and he did. God cannot be tempted with sin, sin, and then die. Jesus laid down his life of his own accord. He did not sin. His being son of man could be tempted, but his being Son of God could not. He did not sin and die. He laid his life down of his own accord. And he took it back up again.

I can agree with exactly what the Scripture says about it - so if we word the statement without adding tradition on what men THINK it means, we'll agree. Something like this:

God planned to created man in the image and likeness of God (Gen 1:26). He (the Word) created by the divine will of God concerning man's creation as male and female (Gen 1:27, John 1). God shaped man from the dust of the earth and the Holy Spirit gave him the breath of life, making the first man (Adam) a living soul (Gen 2:7). [note not for statement but for you guys - the actual enacting of the type and shadow in 2:7 was AFTER the creation week and sixth day of 1:27 - read it in the Bible with no preconceived traditional thinking and you'll see it]

Man (male and female) disobeyed God's instructions given to them to warn them against death. They ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and entered into the rule of death over them (Gen 2:17, 3:6).

We believe in one Way for man to be redeemed from sin and death that he has fallen into, that Way is Jesus Christ our Lord, who came in the flesh as a living soul like us, died on the cross, was buried, resurrected on the third day, and has ascended to the right hand of his Father in heaven, as our Advocate and Redeemer. The first Adam was made a living soul, the Last Adam, the Lord from Heaven, a Life-giving Spirit (John 14:6, Rom 5:17-18, 1 Cor 15:45-47).

[J4Jesus]

Thats what we were talking about before then decided against it.

[J4Jesus]

When we left off I thought we basically agreed on this statement of Pete's except maybe the first part. Then we agreed to agree.. So I was wondering why not have that as is, if all agree and these points from our sticky? That would take care of part of it.
I would like to add a reference but first things first.

The section about what we believe concerning the scriptures has been updated.



Moving on....MAN, HIS FALL AND REDEMPTIONMan is a created being, made in the likeness and image of God, but through Adam's transgression and fall, sin came into the world. The Bible says "...all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God," and "...There is none righteous, no, not one." (Rom. 3:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rom%203:10;&version=9;); 3:23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rom%203:23;&version=9;)). Jesus Christ, the Son of God, was manifested to undo the works of the devil and gave His life and shed His blood to redeem and restore man back to God (Rom. 5:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rom%205:14;&version=9;); 1 John 3:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20John%203:8;&version=9;)).

Salvation is the gift of God to man, separate from works and the Law, and is made operative by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, producing works acceptable to God (Eph. 2:8-10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Eph%202:8-10;&version=9;)).Keep in mind that there are 5 subheadings under salvation and this is only the first.

Discuss.

-----

Concerning Salvation, WE BELIEVE:

That all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God. (Romans 3:23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=3&verse=23&version=9&context=verse))
That salvation is a free gift that can not be earned by works. (Ephesians 2:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=eph%202:8;&version=9;))
That Jesus is the only way to receive salvation. (John 14:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=14&verse=6&version=9&context=verse), Acts 4:12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%204:12;&version=47;))
That unless we are born again, we will not see the Kingdom of God. (John 3:3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%203:3;&version=9;))
That while we were yet sinners, God demonstrated His love for us by sending us Jesus. (Romans 5:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rom%205:8;&version=9;))
That when we repent of our sins, that God is faithful and just to forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (1 John 1:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=69&chapter=1&verse=9&version=9&context=verse))
That when we confess with our mouths that Jesus is Lord and believe in our hearts that God raised Him from the dead, we will be saved. (Romans 10:9-13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rom%2010:9-13;&version=9;))
That Jesus' sacrifice for us is full and sufficient for our redemption and full restoration into right relationship with the Father. (Hebrews 7:27 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Heb%207:27;&version=9;), Romans 3:21-22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rom%203:21-22;&version=9;))
That when you have received the free gift of salvation, you become a new creature in Christ, old things are passed away and all things become new. (2 Corinthians 5:17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=54&chapter=5&verse=17&version=9&context=verse))
That everyone will face judgment at death, and anyone who dies without receiving the free gift of salvation has no further opportunity to hear the Gospel and repent and will face eternal retribution for their sins in hell. (Hebrews 9:27 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%209:27;&version=9;), Revelation 19:20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%2019:20&version=9))

[J4Jesus]

What I just now posted is exactly like Rhema's tenets of faith and then exactly like our sticky .

[pdudgeon]

since we cannot agree on how best to change the first sentence, then we should leave it as is, incorporate the changes that J4Jesus suggested we add in, and then add on the last two parts of the whole. that would make it as follows:

Man is a created being, made in the likeness and image of God, but through Adam's transgression and fall, sin came into the world.

Concerning Salvation, WE BELIEVE:
That all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God. (Romans 3:23)
That salvation is a free gift that can not be earned by works. (Ephesians 2:8)
That Jesus is the only way to receive salvation. (John 14:6, Acts 4:12)
That unless we are born again, we will not see the Kingdom of God. (John 3:3)
That while we were yet sinners, God demonstrated His love for us by sending us Jesus. (Romans 5:8)
That when we repent of our sins, that God is faithful and just to forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (1 John 1:9)
That when we confess with our mouths that Jesus is Lord and believe in our hearts that God raised Him from the dead, we will be saved. (Romans 10:9-13)
That Jesus' sacrifice for us is full and sufficient for our redemption and full restoration into right relationship with the Father. (Hebrews 7:27, Romans 3:21-22)
That when you have received the free gift of salvation, you become a new creature in Christ, old things are passed away and all things become new. (2 Corinthians 5:17)
That everyone will face judgment at death, and anyone who dies without receiving the free gift of salvation has no further opportunity to hear the Gospel and repent and will face eternal retribution for their sins in hell. (Hebrews 9:27, Revelation 19:20)

[top]RESURRECTION OF THE JUST AND THE RETURN OF OUR LORD
The angels said to Jesus' disciples, "...This same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven." His coming is imminent. When He comes, "...The dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air..." (Acts 1:11; 1 Thess. 4:16,17).
Following the Tribulation, He shall return to earth as King of kings, and Lord of lords, and together with His saints, who shall be kings and priests, He shall reign a thousand years (Rev. 5:10;20:6).

[top]HELL AND ETERNAL RETRIBUTION
The one who physically dies in his sins without accepting Christ is hopelessly and eternally lost in the lake of fire and, therefore, has no further opportunity of hearing the Gospel or repenting. The lake of fire is literal. The terms "eternal" and "everlasting," used in describing the duration of the punishment of the damned in the lake of fire, carry the same thought and meaning of endless existence as used in denoting the duration of joy and ecstasy of saints in the Presence of God (Heb. 9:27; Rev. 19:20).



if this is acceptable vote yes
if this is not acceptable vote no

[J4Jesus]

What about putting the whole first thing instead of the first sentence? There are a few duplication there, the first two point are. But in the statement before the points there are references that are NOT in on points.

But we could go with the shorter version and not put it all in there.


Concerning Salvation, WE BELIEVE:


Man is a created being, made in the likeness and image of God, but through Adam's transgression and fall, sin came into the world. The Bible says "...all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God," and "...There is none righteous, no, not one." (Rom. 3:10; 3:23). Jesus Christ, the Son of God, was manifested to undo the works of the devil and gave His life and shed His blood to redeem and restore man back to God (Rom. 5:14; 1 John 3:8). Salvation is the gift of God to man, separate from works and the Law, and is made operative by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, producing works acceptable to God (Eph. 2:8-10).

WE BELIEVE:

That all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God. (Romans 3:23)

That salvation is a free gift that can not be earned by works. (Ephesians 2:8)

That Jesus is the only way to receive salvation. (John 14:6, Acts 4:12)

That unless we are born again, we will not see the Kingdom of God. (John 3:3)

That while we were yet sinners, God demonstrated His love for us by sending us Jesus. (Romans 5:8)

That when we repent of our sins, that God is faithful and just to forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (1 John 1:9)

That when we confess with our mouths that Jesus is Lord and believe in our hearts that God raised Him from the dead, we will be saved. (Romans 10:9-13)

That Jesus' sacrifice for us is full and sufficient for our redemption and full restoration into right relationship with the Father. (Hebrews 7:27, Romans 3:21-22)

That when you have received the free gift of salvation, you become a new creature in Christ, old things are passed away and all things become new. (2 Corinthians 5:17)

That everyone will face judgment at death, and anyone who dies without receiving the free gift of salvation has no further opportunity to hear the Gospel and repent and will face eternal retribution for their sins in hell. (Hebrews 9:27, Revelation 19:20)

[top]RESURRECTION OF THE JUST AND THE RETURN OF OUR LORD
The angels said to Jesus' disciples, "...This same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven." His coming is imminent. When He comes, "...The dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air..." (Acts 1:11; 1 Thess. 4:16,17).
Following the Tribulation, He shall return to earth as King of kings, and Lord of lords, and together with His saints, who shall be kings and priests, He shall reign a thousand years (Rev. 5:10;20:6).

[top]HELL AND ETERNAL RETRIBUTION
The one who physically dies in his sins without accepting Christ is hopelessly and eternally lost in the lake of fire and, therefore, has no further opportunity of hearing the Gospel or repenting. The lake of fire is literal. The terms "eternal" and "everlasting," used in describing the duration of the punishment of the damned in the lake of fire, carry the same thought and meaning of endless existence as used in denoting the duration of joy and ecstasy of saints in the Presence of God (Heb. 9:27; Rev. 19:20).

[J4Jesus]

If we go with the shorter version I would like to add this reference


Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

This was one thing we were talking about when we stopped working on it and it was never added.


and add

Luke 13:5

to the point that says
'That when we repent of our sins ...'

( this verse says 'I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.'] Because repentence is neccessary for salvation.

Actually what we have there 1 John 1:9 is written to Christians.
Or maybe we could add that to another part. Its important.

[pdudgeon]

ok, if we add the whole first part...Concerning Salvation, WE BELIEVE:


Man is a created being, made in the likeness and image of God, but through Adam's transgression and fall, sin came into the world. The Bible says "...all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God," and "...There is none righteous, no, not one." (Rom. 3:10; 3:23). Jesus Christ, the Son of God, was manifested to undo the works of the devil and gave His life and shed His blood to redeem and restore man back to God (Rom. 5:14; 1 John 3:8). Salvation is the gift of God to man, separate from works and the Law, and is made operative by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, producing works acceptable to God (Eph. 2:8-10).



add all except the first sentence ("That all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God. (Romans 3:23)") of the second part which is duplicated above in the second sentence of the first part...so it would look like this:

Concerning Salvation, WE BELIEVE:

That salvation is a free gift that can not be earned by works. (Ephesians 2:8)
That Jesus is the only way to receive salvation. (John 14:6, Acts 4:12)
That unless we are born again, we will not see the Kingdom of God. (John 3:3)
That while we were yet sinners, God demonstrated His love for us by sending us Jesus. (Romans 5:8)
That when we repent of our sins, that God is faithful and just to forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (1 John 1:9, Luke 13:5)
That when we confess with our mouths that Jesus is Lord and believe in our hearts that God raised Him from the dead, we will be saved. (Romans 10:9-13)
That Jesus' sacrifice for us is full and sufficient for our redemption and full restoration into right relationship with the Father. (Hebrews 7:27, Romans 3:21-22)
That when you have received the free gift of salvation, you become a new creature in Christ, old things are passed away and all things become new. (2 Corinthians 5:17)
That everyone will face judgment at death, and anyone who dies without receiving the free gift of salvation has no further opportunity to hear the Gospel and repent and will face eternal retribution for their sins in hell. (Hebrews 9:27, Revelation 19:20)

and then add the last suggestion as the second sentence of the last part so it looks like this:
[top]RESURRECTION OF THE JUST AND THE RETURN OF OUR LORD
The angels said to Jesus' disciples, "...This same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven." His coming is imminent. When He comes, "...The dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air..." (Acts 1:11; 1 Thess. 4:16,17).
Following the Tribulation, He shall return to earth as King of kings, and Lord of lords, and together with His saints, who shall be kings and priests, He shall reign a thousand years (Rev. 5:10;20:6).

[top]HELL AND ETERNAL RETRIBUTION
The one who physically dies in his sins without accepting Christ is hopelessly and eternally lost in the lake of fire and, therefore, has no further opportunity of hearing the Gospel or repenting.
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. (Rom. 5:9)
The lake of fire is literal. The terms "eternal" and "everlasting," used in describing the duration of the punishment of the damned in the lake of fire, carry the same thought and meaning of endless existence as used in denoting the duration of joy and ecstasy of saints in the Presence of God (Heb. 9:27; Rev. 19:20).

i think i've got everything you wanted in there, but check and see.

[Trish1947]

Quote:
[top]HELL AND ETERNAL RETRIBUTION
The one who physically dies in his sins without accepting Christ is hopelessly and eternally lost in the lake of fire and, therefore, has no further opportunity of hearing the Gospel or repenting. The lake of fire is literal. The terms "eternal" and "everlasting," used in describing the duration of the punishment of the damned in the lake of fire, carry the same thought and meaning of endless existence as used in denoting the duration of joy and ecstasy of saints in the Presence of God (Heb. 9:27; Rev. 19:20).

Oh my, I never realized how "other Word of Faithy" I am becoming, the more I look into the word. LOL

For instance, the scriptures say that even death and hell will be thrown in the lake of fire, then this denotes that the place known as hell will no longer exist, and neither will death. And other people will be judged out of other books that are opened, and some are rewarded for their works of kindness, helping a prophet, shall receive a prophets reward, giving a cup of cold water in his name shall not lose their reward. I'm not saying they go to Heaven, Heaven is for the redeemed of the Lord, but they are rewarded perhaps an earthly life, thats not eternal? So to say that everyone has no opportunity for some sort of life after death, if they haven't accepted Christ, I'm still working on that not losing their reward thing, and why all these other books, and what for? If your not in the Lambs book of Life, then you don't have eternal life. So why is it even necessary to keep other books to judge people by?

[J4Jesus]

What is in red is already on there, its underlined ,highlighted in the first part..




ok, if we add the whole first part...
Quote:
Concerning Salvation, WE BELIEVE:


Man is a created being, made in the likeness and image of God, but through Adam's transgression and fall, sin came into the world. The Bible says "...all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God," and "...There is none righteous, no, not one." (Rom. 3:10; 3:23). Jesus Christ, the Son of God, was manifested to undo the works of the devil and gave His life and shed His blood to redeem and restore man back to God (Rom. 5:14; 1 John 3:8). Salvation is the gift of God to man, separate from works and the Law, and is made operative by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, producing works acceptable to God (Eph. 2:8-10).




Quote:
Concerning Salvation, WE BELIEVE:

That salvation is a free gift that can not be earned by works. (Ephesians 2:8)

That Jesus is the only way to receive salvation. (John 14:6, Acts 4:12)
That unless we are born again, we will not see the Kingdom of God. (John 3:3)
That while we were yet sinners, God demonstrated His love for us by sending us Jesus. (Romans 5:8)
That when we repent of our sins, that God is faithful and just to forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (1 John 1:9, Luke 13:5)
That when we confess with our mouths that Jesus is Lord and believe in our hearts that God raised Him from the dead, we will be saved. (Romans 10:9-13)
That Jesus' sacrifice for us is full and sufficient for our redemption and full restoration into right relationship with the Father. (Hebrews 7:27, Romans 3:21-22)
That when you have received the free gift of salvation, you become a new creature in Christ, old things are passed away and all things become new. (2 Corinthians 5:17)
That everyone will face judgment at death, and anyone who dies without receiving the free gift of salvation has no further opportunity to hear the Gospel and repent and will face eternal retribution for their sins in hell. (Hebrews 9:27, Revelation 19:20)
and then add the last suggestion as the second sentence of the last part so it looks like this:

Quote:
[top]RESURRECTION OF THE JUST AND THE RETURN OF OUR LORD
The angels said to Jesus' disciples, "...This same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven." His coming is imminent. When He comes, "...The dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air..." (Acts 1:11; 1 Thess. 4:16,17).
Following the Tribulation, He shall return to earth as King of kings, and Lord of lords, and together with His saints, who shall be kings and priests, He shall reign a thousand years (Rev. 5:10;20:6).

[top]HELL AND ETERNAL RETRIBUTION
The one who physically dies in his sins without accepting Christ is hopelessly and eternally lost in the lake of fire and, therefore, has no further opportunity of hearing the Gospel or repenting.
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. (Rom. 5:9)
The lake of fire is literal. The terms "eternal" and "everlasting," used in describing the duration of the punishment of the damned in the lake of fire, carry the same thought and meaning of endless existence as used in denoting the duration of joy and ecstasy of saints in the Presence of God (Heb. 9:27; Rev. 19:20).
i think i've got everything you wanted in there, but check and see.


You did add this reference


Luke 13:5


But wouldn't it be better instead to add it this way


'That we must repent of sin' (Luke 13:5 )

Since this is for salvation.

And maybe when we get to what

WE BELIEVE ABOUT SANCTIFICATION
add

That if we confess our sins, that God is faithful and just to forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (1 John 1:9

Because 1 John is written to Christians

[J4Jesus]

Quote:
[top]HELL AND ETERNAL RETRIBUTION
The one who physically dies in his sins without accepting Christ is hopelessly and eternally lost in the lake of fire and, therefore, has no further opportunity of hearing the Gospel or repenting. The lake of fire is literal. The terms "eternal" and "everlasting," used in describing the duration of the punishment of the damned in the lake of fire, carry the same thought and meaning of endless existence as used in denoting the duration of joy and ecstasy of saints in the Presence of God (Heb. 9:27; Rev. 19:20).

Oh my, I never realized how "other Word of Faithy" I am becoming, the more I look into the word. LOL

For instance, the scriptures say that even death and hell will be thrown in the lake of fire, then this denotes that the place known as hell will no longer exist, and neither will death. And other people will be judged out of other books that are opened, and some are rewarded for their works of kindness, helping a prophet, shall receive a prophets reward, giving a cup of cold water in his name shall not lose their reward. I'm not saying they go to Heaven, Heaven is for the redeemed of the Lord, but they are rewarded perhaps an earthly life, thats not eternal? So to say that everyone has no opportunity for some sort of life after death, if they haven't accepted Christ, I'm still working on that not losing their reward thing, and why all these other books, and what for? If your not in the Lambs book of Life, then you don't have eternal life. So why is it even necessary to keep other books to judge people by?

All that wordy-ness would probably be for another thread ^_^
(Those who are saved will be rewarded according to their works, which is in those books ;)

[Trish1947]

All that wordy-ness would probably be for another thread ^_^
(Those who are saved will be rewarded according to their works, which is in those books ;)
o.k. fine. no discussions from me at all. It's apparent that all is to be said is sort of like a court room, either answer "yes or no."

[J4Jesus]

o.k. fine. no discussions from me at all. It's apparent that all is to be said is sort of like a court room, either answer "yes or no."


^_^ No I wasn't saying that ! I meant that would be alot of things to think about and discuss. But I didn't see where we would be putting all that on this.
OR did you have suggestion how to say and do that? :confused:

[DavidPresently]

When we left off I thought we basically agreed on this statement of Pete's except maybe the first part. Then we agreed to agree.. So I was wondering why not have that as is, if all agree and these points from our sticky? That would take care of part of it.
I would like to add a reference but first things first.

We agree with what you posted. What I can't agree with is the wording pdudgeon offered. It leaves Scripture and gets into interpretive theology. Nothing wrong with that - but we disagree with HOW it worked. But we can all agree on statements found in the Scripture - I've already shared I think we should stick with the basic statements you've posted a few times now.

[DavidPresently]

Quote:
[top]HELL AND ETERNAL RETRIBUTION
The one who physically dies in his sins without accepting Christ is hopelessly and eternally lost in the lake of fire and, therefore, has no further opportunity of hearing the Gospel or repenting. The lake of fire is literal. The terms "eternal" and "everlasting," used in describing the duration of the punishment of the damned in the lake of fire, carry the same thought and meaning of endless existence as used in denoting the duration of joy and ecstasy of saints in the Presence of God (Heb. 9:27; Rev. 19

Oh my, I never realized how "other Word of Faithy" I am becoming, the more I look into the word. LOL

For instance, the scriptures say that even death and hell will be thrown in the lake of fire, then this denotes that the place known as hell will no longer exist, and neither will death. And other people will be judged out of other books that are opened, and some are rewarded for their works of kindness, helping a prophet, shall receive a prophets reward, giving a cup of cold water in his name shall not lose their reward. I'm not saying they go to Heaven, Heaven is for the redeemed of the Lord, but they are rewarded perhaps an earthly life, thats not eternal? So to say that everyone has no opportunity for some sort of life after death, if they haven't accepted Christ, I'm still working on that not losing their reward thing, and why all these other books, and what for? If your not in the Lambs book of Life, then you don't have eternal life. So why is it even necessary to keep other books to judge people by?

We aren't there yet, but I agree - the traditional statement doesn't exactly match all Scripture has to say about the subject. I did extensive study on the topic of hell after the Spirit led me a couple of years ago, and noticed some differences in what Scripture says and what tradition says. But, that has been such a sacred cow, I refuse to touch on it anymore if the people show an unwillingness to examine such things. And most are not at this time willing to examine such things unbiased from the Scripture alone.

Though we say we are "Scripture only" as our authority, we have often proven we aren't totally that yet, in word and deed. But we believing in being so - and my God help us get there fully.

I barely scratched the surface touching on it when I first came to the forum - testing the waters - and had TheGloryIsHere report it and say I couldn't possibly be WoF over it. I requested that Scripture be used to show where I missed it - I was sincere in that request and still am - because if I'm in error I don't want to stay there. I am correctable. Though I've been grieved at the lack of such around these parts (CF) in my short time here (Pete knows what I mean now, I'm sure - if the rest of you don't).

Pdudgeon impressed me by being correctable recently on feast dates. I believe that is the first person I've seen openly admit error and correct it on here. Everyone else (the ones who argue back and forth even after shown plainly with Scripture they are wrong) just exalts their knowledge and stands on the ground of "I'm right" rather than "the Word is right." We can properly label that "pride of knowledge" and it is the leaven of the Pharisees that puffs men up.

*Btw - I have no animosity against TGIH, who I mentioned above - all that happened publicly and we both moved on - in love - the best way we knew how without causing strife. I was impressed by her part in that - though I do think the courtesy of answering my request would have been nice - but not necessary.

[J4Jesus]

We agree with what you posted. What I can't agree with is the wording pdudgeon offered. It leaves Scripture and gets into interpretive theology. Nothing wrong with that - but we disagree with HOW it worked. But we can all agree on statements found in the Scripture - I've already shared I think we should stick with the basic statements you've posted a few times now.
Old history .
I think what happened was what was quoted from before we did all that :)
So look at her last one and my last one

[DavidPresently]

Old history .
I think what happened was what was quoted from before we did all that :)
So look at her last one and my last one

My apologies for missing whatever I missed - and any confusion it caused - carry on. :wave:

[Trish1947]

We aren't there yet, but I agree - the traditional statement doesn't exactly match all Scripture has to say about the subject. I did extensive study on the topic of hell after the Spirit led me a couple of years ago, and noticed some differences in what Scripture says and what tradition says. But, that has been such a sacred cow, I refuse to touch on it anymore if the people show an unwillingness to examine such things. And most are not at this time willing to examine such things unbiased from the Scripture alone.

Though we say we are "Scripture only" as our authority, we have often proven we aren't totally that yet, in word and deed. But we believing in being so - and my God help us get there fully.

I barely scratched the surface touching on it when I first came to the forum - testing the waters - and had TheGloryIsHere report it and say I couldn't possibly be WoF over it. I requested that Scripture be used to show where I missed it - I was sincere in that request and still am - because if I'm in error I don't want to stay there. I am correctable. Though I've been grieved at the lack of such around these parts (CF) in my short time here (Pete knows what I mean now, I'm sure - if the rest of you don't).

Pdudgeon impressed me by being correctable recently on feast dates. I believe that is the first person I've seen openly admit error and correct it on here. Everyone else (the ones who argue back and forth even after shown plainly with Scripture they are wrong) just exalts their knowledge and stands on the ground of "I'm right" rather than "the Word is right." We can properly label that "pride of knowledge" and it is the leaven of the Pharisees that puffs men up.

*Btw - I have no animosity against TGIH, who I mentioned above - all that happened publicly and we both moved on - in love - the best way we knew how without causing strife. I was impressed by her part in that - though I do think the courtesy of answering my request would have been nice - but not necessary.
Sure, I agree whole heartedly. My point being when statements are made as iron clad facts, then were putting these things above what the Spirit may want to reveal. Other than iron clad basics that we know about as scripturally sound. Going beyond the basics, our statements of faith for each person are only as up to date as our last revelation of the Word of God, and when getting into some area's that can be debated, maybe shouldnt be stated at all. Afterall it's what we actually agree on that puts together a cover statement. I like SOF's that can be changed with each revealing of Gods Word. So as far as what I'm seeking now, I will vote no, on the particular statement that people are forever burning in the lake of fire, when death and hell are being thrown in to be distroyed. Seems rather strange to me that death and hell suffers eternally in the lake of fire also.

[probinson]

OK. Here goes:

Concerning Salvation, WE BELIEVE:We believe that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. (Romans 3:23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=3&verse=23&version=9&context=verse)). We believe that is is by grace we are saved through faith, and not of ourselves, and that Jesus is the only way to receive the gift of salvation (Ephesians 2:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=eph%202:8;&version=9;), John 14:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=14&verse=6&version=9&context=verse), Acts 4:12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%204:12;&version=47;)).

We believe that unless we are born again, we will not see the Kingdom of God, and while we were yet sinners, God demonstrated His Love for us by sending us His Son, Jesus to die for our sins (John 3:3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%203:3;&version=9;), Romans 5:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rom%205:8;&version=9;)).

We believe that when we repent of our sins, that God is faithful and just to forgive our sins and cleanse us of all unrighteousness, and that when we confess with our mouths that Jesus is Lord, and believe in our hearts that God raised Him from the dead, we are saved (1 John 1:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=69&chapter=1&verse=9&version=9&context=verse), Romans 10:9-13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rom%2010:9-13;&version=9;)).

We believe that Jesus' sacrifice for us is full and sufficient for our redemption and full restoration into right relationship with the Father, and when you have received the free gift of salvation, you become a new creature in Christ, old things are passed away and all things become new (Hebrews 7:27 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Heb%207:27;&version=9;), Romans 3:21-22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rom%203:21-22;&version=9;), 2 Corinthians 5:17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=54&chapter=5&verse=17&version=9&context=verse)).

We believe that everyone will face judgment at death, and anyone who dies without receiving the free gift of salvation has no further opportunity to hear the Gospel and repent and will face eternal retribution for their sins in hell. (Hebrews 9:27 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%209:27;&version=9;), Revelation 19:20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%2019:20&version=9)).
The above is a rewrite of the sticky currently at the top of the WoF forum. It says basically the same thing, but in paragraph format, and I made some modifications to the verbiage to try and make it as close to scripture as possible.

I see there is some debate on the judgment and hell, so feel free to tweak and adjust this as necessary. I personally have no problem with what is stated above as-is (obviously ;)), so please feel free to point out where we should make clarifications, additions or modifications.

[pdudgeon]

Pete, a tiny addition...can you plug in the emphasized part in this phrase (which was in the original) about works?That salvation is a free gift that can not be earned by works. (Ephesians 2:8)


you've got the scripture reference in there already.

and on the first line change the last word 'is' to 'if';)

[probinson]

Pete, a tiny addition...can you plug in the emphasized part in this phrase (which was in the original) about works?

you've got the scripture reference in there already.

and on the first line change the last word 'is' to 'if';)
How's about this;
We believe that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. (Romans 3:23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=3&verse=23&version=9&context=verse)). We believe that by grace we are saved through faith, salvation can not be obtained through works, and that Jesus is the only way to receive the gift of salvation (Ephesians 2:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=eph%202:8;&version=9;), John 14:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=14&verse=6&version=9&context=verse), Acts 4:12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%204:12;&version=47;)).

We believe that unless we are born again, we will not see the Kingdom of God, and while we were yet sinners, God demonstrated His Love for us by sending us His Son, Jesus to die for our sins (John 3:3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%203:3;&version=9;), Romans 5:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rom%205:8;&version=9;)).

We believe that when we repent of our sins, that God is faithful and just to forgive our sins and cleanse us of all unrighteousness, and that when we confess with our mouths that Jesus is Lord, and believe in our hearts that God raised Him from the dead, we are saved (1 John 1:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=69&chapter=1&verse=9&version=9&context=verse), Romans 10:9-13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rom%2010:9-13;&version=9;)).

We believe that Jesus' sacrifice for us is full and sufficient for our redemption and full restoration into right relationship with the Father, and when you have received the free gift of salvation, you become a new creature in Christ, old things are passed away and all things become new (Hebrews 7:27 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Heb%207:27;&version=9;), Romans 3:21-22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rom%203:21-22;&version=9;), 2 Corinthians 5:17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=54&chapter=5&verse=17&version=9&context=verse)).

We believe that everyone will face judgment at death, and anyone who dies without receiving the free gift of salvation has no further opportunity to hear the Gospel and repent and will face eternal retribution for their sins in hell. (Hebrews 9:27 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%209:27;&version=9;), Revelation 19:20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%2019:20&version=9)).

[J4Jesus]

Pete are you saying you want to just go back to our sticky (that's what this is) and forget the first part we stated earlier which was the statement from Rhema?

[probinson]

Pete are you saying you want to just go back to our sticky (that's what this is) and forget the first part we stated earlier which was the statement from Rhema?
Well, it doesn't really "forget" the RHEMA statement. It just says basically the same thing in different words.

I think that the statement I made above (which is very much just our sticky reformatted) is sufficient for a statement about what we believe concerning salvation, but if others feel that more needs to be addressed, or if we've missed something from the RHEMA statement that we should include, then by all means, suggest away.

[J4Jesus]

Pete

ONe part wasn't included about the blood

Can we added this reference if we go only with the shorter version ? We were going to do that last year but stopped working on this.

Rom5:9



( which is Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.)

I would like to consider changing this point from this--


'We believe that when we repent of our sins, that God is faithful and just to forgive our sins and cleanse us of all unrighteousness, and that when we confess with our mouths that Jesus is Lord, and believe in our hearts that God raised Him from the dead, we are saved (1 John 1:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=69&chapter=1&verse=9&version=9&context=verse), Romans 10:9-13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rom%2010:9-13;&version=9;)).'

to this --

'We believe that when we repent of our sins, that we are justified by his blood, and that when we confess with our mouths that Jesus is Lord, and believe in our hearts that God raised Him from the dead, we are saved ( Rom 5:9, Romans 10:9-13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rom%2010:9-13;&version=9;)).'


(In Luke 13:5 -it says 'I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.'] Because repentence is neccessary for salvation.

We are talking about SALVATION now. and actually what we have there on the sticky 1 John 1:9 is written to Christians.

When we get to it we could add that to the part, what

WE BELIEVE ABOUT SANCTIFICATION, which is very important.

That if we confess our sins, that God is faithful and just to forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (1 John 1:9)


Or if you would like to reword what I am suggested here or combine them some way .

[Trish1947]

OK. Here goes:



Concerning Salvation, WE BELIEVE:We believe that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. (Romans 3:23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=3&verse=23&version=9&context=verse)). We believe that is is by grace we are saved through faith, and not of ourselves, and that Jesus is the only way to receive the gift of salvation (Ephesians 2:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=eph%202:8;&version=9;), John 14:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=14&verse=6&version=9&context=verse), Acts 4:12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%204:12;&version=47;)).

We believe that unless we are born again, we will not see the Kingdom of God, and while we were yet sinners, God demonstrated His Love for us by sending us His Son, Jesus to die for our sins (John 3:3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%203:3;&version=9;), Romans 5:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rom%205:8;&version=9;)).

We believe that when we repent of our sins, that God is faithful and just to forgive our sins and cleanse us of all unrighteousness, and that when we confess with our mouths that Jesus is Lord, and believe in our hearts that God raised Him from the dead, we are saved (1 John 1:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=69&chapter=1&verse=9&version=9&context=verse), Romans 10:9-13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rom%2010:9-13;&version=9;)).

We believe that Jesus' sacrifice for us is full and sufficient for our redemption and full restoration into right relationship with the Father, and when you have received the free gift of salvation, you become a new creature in Christ, old things are passed away and all things become new (Hebrews 7:27 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Heb%207:27;&version=9;), Romans 3:21-22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rom%203:21-22;&version=9;), 2 Corinthians 5:17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=54&chapter=5&verse=17&version=9&context=verse)).

We believe that everyone will face judgment at death, and anyone who dies without receiving the free gift of salvation has no further opportunity to hear the Gospel and repent and will face eternal retribution for their sins in hell. (Hebrews 9:27 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%209:27;&version=9;), Revelation 19:20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%2019:20&version=9)).The above is a rewrite of the sticky currently at the top of the WoF forum. It says basically the same thing, but in paragraph format, and I made some modifications to the verbiage to try and make it as close to scripture as possible.

I see there is some debate on the judgment and hell, so feel free to tweak and adjust this as necessary. I personally have no problem with what is stated above as-is (obviously ;)), so please feel free to point out where we should make clarifications, additions or modifications.
Maybe just a little tweak..
Quote:
"We believe that everyone will face judgement at death."

Christians have already passed from death unto life by being in Jesus, and abiding in Him, and there is no condemation to those in Christ.

Maybe we can say, those that die without receiving Jesus Christ and His sacrifice for their sin face judgment.

[J4Jesus]

Maybe just a little tweak..
Quote:
"We believe that everyone will face judgement at death."

Christians have already passed from death unto life by being in Jesus, and abiding in Him, and there is no condemation to those in Christ.

Maybe we can say, those that die without receiving Jesus Christ and His sacrifice for their sin face judgment.

I don't see that it is saying that. Could you please quote the point you are talking about?:)

What I am reading sounds right.

We believe that everyone will face judgment at death, and anyone who dies without receiving the free gift of salvation has no further opportunity to hear the Gospel and repent and will face eternal retribution for their sins in hell. (Hebrews 9:27 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%209:27;&version=9;), Revelation 19:20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%2019:20&version=9)).

[J4Jesus]

To me these says the same thing but you are wanting to turn the statement around, correct?
If so no problem . That's fine

[Trish1947]

I don't see that it is saying that. Could you please quote the point you are talking about?:)

What I am reading sounds right.

We believe that everyone will face judgment at death, and anyone who dies without receiving the free gift of salvation has no further opportunity to hear the Gospel and repent and will face eternal retribution for their sins in hell. (Hebrews 9:27 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%209:27;&version=9;), Revelation 19:20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%2019:20&version=9)).
o.k. maybe it's nit picking. Being before the judgement seat of Christ isn't the same as being judged as an unforgiven sinner without Christ. In other words going to this judgement seat of Christ is for the church body that has already passed from death unto life. They are not the same judgements.

[J4Jesus]

Trish
See post 783 :)

[Trish1947]

Trish
See post 783 :)
o.k. I didn't see this post. What I would like to see is this statement dropped, "Everyone will face judgement at death." It would be confusing to those that might interpret it to mean even if they accepted Christ, they would be judged the same way.

[J4Jesus]

Pete

on that point I would like to add the word
"literal '

'....their sins in a literal hell.'

and this reference in Rev. instead of that one. I think would be better, it emphasizes 'forever.'

Revelation 20:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=20&verse=10&version=9&context=verse)

But first, since thats at the end, the other points I made about 3 times ;) ;)
Post 780
Thanks

[pdudgeon]

o.k. maybe it's nit picking. Being before the judgement seat of Christ isn't the same as being judged as an unforgiven sinner without Christ. In other words going to this judgement seat of Christ is for the church body that has already passed from death unto life. They are not the same judgements.

If we add a reference for 1Peter 1:17-20 here We believe that everyone will face judgment at death, and anyone who dies without receiving the free gift of salvation has no further opportunity to hear the Gospel and repent and will face eternal retribution for their sins in hell. (Hebrews 9:27, Revelation 19:20). it might help to explain both the judgement for Christians and Christ's blood which redeems us.:D

[Trish1947]

If we add a reference for 1Peter 1:17-20 here it might help to explain both the judgement for Christians and Christ's blood which redeems us.:D
Quote:
and will face eternal retribution for their sins in hell. (Hebrews 9:27, Revelation 19:20).

We were not told to repent of all our sins in the New Testament and then believe. We are told to repent and believe the Gospel. They didn't believe it. So they needed to repent of non-belief. There is only one sin that people will be judged for according to scripture, because all other sin has been paid for. Jesus said, "and this is the sin..that they believe not in the One that was sent"..period. This is what people are going to face, not if they have repented of all their sin. Most people that hear the Gospel for the first time, come to that all have sinned and come short, as soon as they hear it, it's believed. They accept Jesus as savior, before taking any account what so ever of all their sins in their life. Being born again of the Spirit, and learning to walk in that, takes care of all those sin problems as God gives the increase through the new birth. Sometimes I think we are the ones that get in the way of people coming to the knowledge of the truth. If we couldn't stop sinning before we heard it, what makes us think that after we heard it, without the new birth taking place, we can repent, (stop sinning) and have the power to do so in our lives, without it, and then believe the Gospel? Thats why Jesus came.. to save sinners.
So this quote is misleading why people are judged and for what sin.

[DavidPresently]

I still think we should keep it simple and worded as in the Scripture as closely as possible. In every portion of the SoF. I haven't had time to go through each statement and edit a bit to make it word like Scripture does. Maybe someone else does or maybe I will later.

We could debate theology for weeks - we aren't going to all agree on how everything works though we all agree on what is actually stated in Scripture, because we are all at different places in our development in Messiah, since being newly born of the Spirit.

[Trish1947]

I still think we should keep it simple and worded as in the Scripture as closely as possible. In every portion of the SoF. I haven't had time to go through each statement and edit a bit to make it word like Scripture does. Maybe someone else does or maybe I will later.

We could debate theology for weeks - we aren't going to all agree on how everything works though we all agree on what is actually stated in Scripture, because we are all at different places in our development in Messiah, since being newly born of the Spirit.
I do get off into theology, alot, don't mean too. But stateing what sin people will be judged for could make it plain why God will judge them. First you must believe one thing, not do many things at first to be accepted.

[DavidPresently]

I do get off into theology, alot, don't mean too. But stateing what sin people will be judged for could make it plain why God will judged them. First you must believe one thing, not do many to be accepted.

I understand completely, trust me. I have the same...STRENGTH! :thumbsup: I find myself having to remind myself to refrain often on here from getting into it.

[Trish1947]

I understand completely, trust me. I have the same...STRENGTH! :thumbsup: I find myself having to remind myself to refrain often on here from getting into it.
I'm glad your here..I will keep in mind what you have said. I think I have debated way too much in this forum.. LOL.. So I will take a break from this for awhile.

[pdudgeon]

I do get off into theology, alot, don't mean too. But stateing what sin people will be judged for could make it plain why God will judge them. First you must believe one thing, not do many things at first to be accepted.

trish i agree with you that we must believe one thing which has already been stated, namely believing that Jesus is our only saviour, that we were sinners and that those sins have been paid for by Jesus' blood for us. that would answer God's first question to us--"What have you done with My Son?"
the Christian's 'judgement' is where all the things we have done for Christ while here on earth will pass thru the fiery judgement of His refining fire, so that only those acts done from pure love of Him will remain to be rewarded. And we will all be casting our rewards and crowns at His feet, because nothing we have done or will do can be compared to what He has already done for us.:bow:
the unsaved will also have their judgement (known as "The Great White Throne" judgement) at the end, and they will eventually bow to Jesus acknowledging Him as Lord. But it will be an acknowledgement come too late to save them, so yes, they do go into hell because they cannot be in heaven.

to summarize, yes, men do die once and then they come to the judgement of God.

[DavidPresently]

trish i agree with you that we must believe one thing which has already been stated, namely believing that Jesus is our only saviour, that we were sinners and that those sins have been paid for by Jesus' blood for us. that would answer God's first question to us--"What have you done with My Son?"
the Christian's 'judgement' is where all the things we have done for Christ while here on earth will pass thru the fiery judgement of His refining fire, so that only those acts done from pure love of Him will remain to be rewarded. And we will all be casting our rewards and crowns at His feet, because nothing we have done or will do can be compared to what He has already done for us.:bow:
the unsaved will also have their judgement (known as "The Great White Throne" judgement) at the end, and they will eventually bow to Jesus acknowledging Him as Lord. But it will be an acknowledgement come too late to save them, so yes, they do go into hell because they cannot be in heaven.

to summarize, yes, men do die once and then they come to the judgement of God.

A couple things there aren't technically/exactly scripturally correct - I don't think. This is an example of when I have to remind myself to refrain from correcting something though and getting in a deep theological debate.

But, I fully see where the understanding is coming from. And it isn't necessarily off - just not exactly on target. Think of a target - we don't always hit the bullseye but we can still be close. At least we're hitting the target and not shooting in the wrong direction.

I'm glad to be among people aiming for the target. I've been among some groups that I'm not sure what they are aiming at, but it isn't the right target. :sorry:

[J4Jesus]

Can we put that on the shelf now and move on ? I have a suggestion how to reword the last point later. :)
I tweeked the 3rd point and added some references. I suggest we see if we can agree on these other points first.


Do you agree with these points for our WOF statement?

YES: J4Jesus


NO:

We believe that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. (Romans 3:23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=3&verse=23&version=9&context=verse)). We believe that by grace we are saved through faith, salvation can not be obtained through works, and that Jesus is the only way to receive the gift of salvation (Ephesians 2:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=eph%202:8;&version=9;), John 14:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=14&verse=6&version=9&context=verse), Acts 4:12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%204:12;&version=47;)).


We believe that unless we are born again, we will not see the Kingdom of God, and while we were yet sinners, God demonstrated His Love for us by sending us His Son, Jesus to die for our sins (John 3:3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%203:3;&version=9;), Romans 5:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rom%205:8;&version=9;)).

We believe that when we repent, confess with our mouths that Jesus is Lord, and believe in our hearts that God raised Him from the dead, that we are now justified by his blood, and shall be saved from wrath through him ( Luke 13:5, Romans 10:9-13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rom%2010:9-13;&version=9;), Rom 5:9 ).

We believe that Jesus' sacrifice for us is full and sufficient for our redemption and full restoration into right relationship with the Father, and when you have received the free gift of salvation, you become a new creature in Christ, old things are passed away and all things become new (Hebrews 7:27 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Heb%207:27;&version=9;), Romans 3:21-22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rom%203:21-22;&version=9;), 2 Corinthians 5:17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=54&chapter=5&verse=17&version=9&context=verse)).










.

[pdudgeon]

looks good to me.:thumbsup:

Do you agree with these points for our WOF statement?

YES: J4Jesus. pdudgeon

[probinson]

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h128/petesarah/62s.jpg

Translation: YES! :D

[J4Jesus]

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h128/petesarah/62s.jpg

Translation: YES! :D
Oops at first I thought you were voting yes but you said brother on there,so I guess you were talking to David . I don't look like a brother do I .^_^
So what about the statement? ;)

[DavidPresently]

That is - Yes #3.

[J4Jesus]

That is - Yes #3.

David
Does that include a YES for all those points not just the 3rd point? :confused:

[DavidPresently]

David
Does that include a YES for all those points not just the 3rd point? :confused:
:D

The only statement I couldn't go with was saying "immortal soul and spirit" about the first Adam. I believe that to be unscriptural.

The only other statement so far that I could nit-pick would be about the judgments to come after this death. The statement isn't perfect. But, I'm about this age now and our mission. I don't really care if everyone knows the particulars of how the judgments are going down then - because they'll find out then - and even Christians when they see how it is done then will go, oops, I guess we were wrong. Maybe we should have studied that out in Scripture a little better instead of taking the RCC's word on some of that traditional thinking and passing it on in the reforming churches.

It just simply doesn't matter what we believe about THEN right NOW. What is important is NOW and what we do with Jesus NOW.

NOW is why my name is DavidPRESENTLY on here, and why my wife goes on here by KathyNOW. It is always most productive to be living in God now, and be letting him mold and shape us and reshape us now, and serve him and others now. We can misinterpret the future, but we are experiencing now - and that is where faith is (NOW faith is...)

:wave:

[J4Jesus]

David THIS is what we are voting on and I do not see the statement you mention on here. If its here please quote it. I take that as a YES for all these ?


Do you agree with these points for our WOF statement?

YES: J4Jesus, pdudgeon, Trish1947, DavidPresently


NO:

We believe that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. (Romans 3:23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=3&verse=23&version=9&context=verse)). We believe that by grace we are saved through faith, salvation can not be obtained through works, and that Jesus is the only way to receive the gift of salvation (Ephesians 2:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=eph%202:8;&version=9;), John 14:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=14&verse=6&version=9&context=verse), Acts 4:12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%204:12;&version=47;)).


We believe that unless we are born again, we will not see the Kingdom of God, and while we were yet sinners, God demonstrated His Love for us by sending us His Son, Jesus to die for our sins (John 3:3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%203:3;&version=9;), Romans 5:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rom%205:8;&version=9;)).

We believe that when we repent, confess with our mouths that Jesus is Lord, and believe in our hearts that God raised Him from the dead, that we are now justified by his blood, and shall be saved from wrath through him ( Luke 13:5, Rom 10:9-13, Rom 5:9 ).

We believe that Jesus' sacrifice for us is full and sufficient for our redemption and full restoration into right relationship with the Father, and when you have received the free gift of salvation, you become a new creature in Christ, old things are passed away and all things become new (Hebrews 7:27 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Heb%207:27;&version=9;), Romans 3:21-22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rom%203:21-22;&version=9;), 2 Corinthians 5:17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=54&chapter=5&verse=17&version=9&context=verse)).






[Edit :count]

[Trish1947]

I vote yes.

I took alittle time to ponder what David has been saying. I remember I didn't need all this deeper theological understandings to get to know Jesus and what I had to do to be forgiven. The basics are there. So sorry about driving people into another debate.

[DavidPresently]

David THIS is what we are voting on and I do not see the statement you mention on here. If its here please quote it. So are these statements a YES or a NO?


Do you agree with these points for our WOF statement?

YES: J4Jesus, pdudgeon, Trish1947


NO:

We believe that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. (Romans 3:23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=3&verse=23&version=9&context=verse)). We believe that by grace we are saved through faith, salvation can not be obtained through works, and that Jesus is the only way to receive the gift of salvation (Ephesians 2:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=eph%202:8;&version=9;), John 14:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=14&verse=6&version=9&context=verse), Acts 4:12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%204:12;&version=47;)).


We believe that unless we are born again, we will not see the Kingdom of God, and while we were yet sinners, God demonstrated His Love for us by sending us His Son, Jesus to die for our sins (John 3:3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%203:3;&version=9;), Romans 5:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rom%205:8;&version=9;)).

We believe that when we repent, confess with our mouths that Jesus is Lord, and believe in our hearts that God raised Him from the dead, that we are now justified by his blood, and shall be saved from wrath through him ( Luke 13:5, Rom 10:9-13, Rom 5:9 ).

We believe that Jesus' sacrifice for us is full and sufficient for our redemption and full restoration into right relationship with the Father, and when you have received the free gift of salvation, you become a new creature in Christ, old things are passed away and all things become new (Hebrews 7:27 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Heb%207:27;&version=9;), Romans 3:21-22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rom%203:21-22;&version=9;), 2 Corinthians 5:17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=54&chapter=5&verse=17&version=9&context=verse)).






[Edit :count]

Sorry that I confused you - I was saying yes to that, yes to the next part, and yes to the next part. Ahead of time - so for now - just put YES :D

[J4Jesus]

EDIT:corrections

OK thanks Trish and David :)
While we're on a roll... you two chew on this and we will get back to it later ;) .
For the last point we were debating , consider this :


We believe that those that physically die without receiving Jesus Christ and His sacrifice have no further opportunity to hear the Gospel and repent. They are eternally lost and will face eternal retribution for their sins in a literal hell. (Hebrews 9:27, Rev 20:10, Rev 20:14)

[pdudgeon]

OK thanks Trish and David :)
While we're on a roll... chew on this and we will get back to it later ;) .
For the last puint we wre debating , consider this :


We believe that those that physically die without receiving Jesus Christ and His sacrifice has no further opportunity to hear the Gospel and repent. They are eternally lost and will face eternal retribution for their sins in a literal hell. (Hebrews 9:27, Rev 20:10, Rev 20:14)


yes on this too.:thumbsup: (edit...in that first sentence change 'has no further opportunity" to 'have no further opportunity")

[Trish1947]

We believe that those that physically die without receiving Jesus Christ and His sacrifice has no further opportunity to hear the Gospel and repent. We believe that those that physically die without receiving Jesus Christ and His sacrifice has no further opportunity to hear the Gospel and repent. They are eternally lost and will face eternal retribution for their sins in a literal hell. (Hebrews 9:27, Rev 20:10, Rev 20:14)
I'm trying not to be "theological".^_^

If we changed They are eternally lost and will face eternal retribution for their sins in a literal hell. (Hebrews 9:27, Rev 20:10, Rev 20:14)

To.."They are eternally lost and will face eternal retribution for sin, in a literal hell".

That way it sort of answers the debate we had about what the sin is.. but doesn't take away from the scriptures.

If we don't agree with it, then just put me down as a yes, on the way it's stated.

[J4Jesus]

I'm trying not to be "theological".^_^

If we changed They are eternally lost and will face eternal retribution for their sins in a literal hell. (Hebrews 9:27, Rev 20:10, Rev 20:14)

To.."They are eternally lost and will face eternal retribution for sin, in a literal hell".

That way it sort of answers the debate we had about what the sin is.. but doesn't take away from the scriptures.

If we don't agree with it, then just put me down as a yes, on the way it's stated.

Strike the "s". Got it ;) (Altho I prefer the other way since they didn't accept the sacrifice.. I'll stop there ^_^ )



We believe that those that physically die without receiving Jesus Christ and His sacrifice has no further opportunity to hear the Gospel and repent. We believe that those that physically die without receiving Jesus Christ and His sacrifice has no further opportunity to hear the Gospel and repent. They are eternally lost and will face eternal retribution for sin, in a literal hell. (Hebrews 9:27, Rev 20:10, Rev 20:14)

How about

'...will be eternally lost in a literal hell.'

We believe that those that physically die without receiving Jesus Christ and His sacrifice has no further opportunity to hear the Gospel and repent. We believe that those that physically die without receiving Jesus Christ and His sacrifice has no further opportunity to hear the Gospel and repent, and will be eternally lost in a literal hell. (Hebrews 9:27, Rev 20:10, Rev 20:14)

[DavidPresently]

I would only reword the last part that says "They are eternally lost and will face eternal retribution for their sin, in a literal hell. (Hebrews 9:27, Rev 20:10, Rev 20:14)"

This is the way I'd word it:

"They are condemned and will be cast into the lake of fire, the second death, with the devil and his evil spirits, to pay the full retribution of their sin without grace or mercy. That judgment is eternal, and cannot be revoked. *add Rev 20:15

The part in blue is based on the Scripture references given plus Rev 20:15. The red I believe to be Scripturally true, but references need added - none that we have listed say such.

I worded it as I did because I can see theological loopholes in the other one, where it could be debated using Scripture. But, it isn't a bid deal to me if no one else thinks that could be a problem.

[probinson]

Just as an FYI, I'm here, I'm watching, I'm agreeing, and I'll speak up when I see something I disagree with.

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h128/petesarah/Smilies/popcorn.gif

[J4Jesus]

David
Since these are to be simple statements (I thought) all that you added are so many more points we can debate ^_^ I guess I could come back next month and see how you all are doing ;)
So you do not agree this is true?
I know we can get into alot of deep teaching about every point. But do you believe this? That is what I want to know :)

We believe that those that physically die without receiving Jesus Christ and His sacrifice has no further opportunity to hear the Gospel and repent, and will be eternally lost in a literal hell. (Hebrews 9:27, Rev 20:10, Rev 20:14)

[pdudgeon]

I would only reword the last part that says "They are eternally lost and will face eternal retribution for their sin, in a literal hell. (Hebrews 9:27, Rev 20:10, Rev 20:14)"

This is the way I'd word it:

"They are condemned and will be cast into the lake of fire, the second death, with the devil and his evil spirits, to pay the full retribution of their sin without grace or mercy. That judgment is eternal, and cannot be revoked. *add Rev 20:15

The part in blue is based on the Scripture references given plus Rev 20:15. The red I believe to be Scripturally true, but references need added - none that we have listed say such.

I worded it as I did because I can see theological loopholes in the other one, where it could be debated using Scripture. But, it isn't a bid deal to me if no one else thinks that could be a problem.


ok, i like this because it does close a lot of loopholes. you might also add Rev. 21:6, 8 as a reference. "It is finished' implies that there will be no grace or mercy shown, and God's judgement is final for those who are not saved. Mat 25:41,46 as a reference is also for this.

so far we're good to go!:thumbsup:

(are you still keeping up with all this, Pete? i think we're on a roll!~)

[J4Jesus]

Just as an FYI, I'm here, I'm watching, I'm agreeing, and I'll speak up when I see something I disagree with.

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h128/petesarah/Smilies/popcorn.gif

Well then agree with the first sentence of my last post! :P ^_^

[J4Jesus]

OK Trish what do you say about this?


We believe that those that physically die without receiving Jesus Christ and His sacrifice has no further opportunity to hear the Gospel and repent. We believe that those that physically die without receiving Jesus Christ and His sacrifice has no further opportunity to hear the Gospel and repent. They are condemned and will be cast into the lake of fire, the second death, with the devil and his evil spirits, to pay the full retribution of their sin without grace or mercy. That judgment is eternal, and cannot be revoked. (Hebrews 9:27, Matt 25:41,46 , Rev 21:6, 8, Rev 20:10, 14, 15)




We believe that those that physically die without receiving Jesus Christ and His sacrifice has no further opportunity to hear the Gospel and repent, and will be eternally lost in a literal hell. (Hebrews 9:27, Rev 20:10, Rev 20:14)

[pdudgeon]

you know what i just realized? we don't have anything in here yet about the gifts of the Holy Spirit? :swoon:

not that i want us to work on that right yet, but it is something we'll have to add when we have finished the rest of the headdings. Save a space, Pete!

[J4Jesus]

you know what i just realized? we don't have anything in here yet about the gifts of the Holy Spirit? :swoon:

not that i want us to work on that right yet, but it is something we'll have to add when we have finished the rest of the headdings. Save a space, Pete!


Thats farther down.
If you will see how the Rhema tenets are on the wiki, we were going by that.
But on this part concerning salvation we decided to use our list since we already had it done.


This is not all inclusive! We only got as far as salvation when we were working on it last year.
When we get this done then we will get to the other points. We need to do healing too. And more specific things like confession etc.

[pdudgeon]

umm nope, they're not mentioned in the Holy Spirit section and believe me, i looked! would our faces be red if we forgot those!:blush: :bow:

so save a space, pete. :wave: we'll get to those in a little bit.

[J4Jesus]

umm nope, they're not mentioned in the Holy Spirit section and believe me, i looked! would our faces be red if we forgot those!:blush: :bow:

so save a space, pete. :wave: we'll get to those in a little bit.

It mentions the Holy Spirit, all we have to do is add about the gifts. Healing is on the wiki. I think most assume if you believe in the baptism and speaking in tongues you believe in the gifts. Those who dont believe it is why they dont want the baptism. But for a forum we do need to add that part.


We may not need the headings as large as the largest font ^_^

[DavidPresently]

David
Since these are to be simple statements (I thought) all that you added are so many more points we can debate ^_^ I guess I could come back next month and see how you all are doing ;)
So you do not agree this is true?
I know we can get into alot of deep teaching about every point. But do you believe this? That is what I want to know :)

We believe that those that physically die without receiving Jesus Christ and His sacrifice has no further opportunity to hear the Gospel and repent, and will be eternally lost in a literal hell. (Hebrews 9:27, Rev 20:10, Rev 20:14)

Yes, but I find it somewhat faulty - not because what it states is wrong, but because of what I described before concerning theological loopholes. I could nit-pick it to death with Scripture quotes and make it look silly. That means someone else could to. Including someone who doesn't believe in hell (lake of fire aka second death being meant in the statement above and hell being a poor choice of words THEOLOGICALLY, because hell is thrown in there - hell being the grave in Scripture).

The way I reworded it does not change what WE mean by the above statement, but it does seal it up a bit and make it worded more like Scripture, so no one can...what's the right word..debunk? it.

But again, I can get way into depth of the jots and tittles of the matter but understand for the SoF it isn't necessary. And if everyone else wants to stick with the wording quoted above in your statement, then I'm fine with it.

[DavidPresently]

ok, i like this because it does close a lot of loopholes. you might also add Rev. 21:6, 8 as a reference. "It is finished' implies that there will be no grace or mercy shown, and God's judgement is final for those who are not saved. Mat 25:41,46 as a reference is also for this.

so far we're good to go!:thumbsup:

(are you still keeping up with all this, Pete? i think we're on a roll!~)

Those are good references to add.

[J4Jesus]

But again, I can get way into depth of the jots and tittles of the matter...
Ohhhh don't I know it!! :P LOL ! Me too! But I dont argue about it for 3 weeks ;) :D
Right, we can't on the statement.

[DavidPresently]

Galatians 6:9 KJVR And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

hehe. We're looking for the reward!!!

Thank God! We will make it through!

We should be ready to work on the gifts of the Spirit statement, confession of faith, and healing...this year. If we stay at it. ^_^

Smile! :D Laugh - it's good medicine.

[DavidPresently]

Ohhhh don't I know it!! :P LOL ! Me too! But I dont argue about it for 3 weeks ;) :D
Right, we can't on the statement.

Hey, that's just because you are more mature than me!! Well, until you started rubbing it in. But, I guess it was worth it for you, huh. :D

[J4Jesus]

Hey, that's just because you are more mature than me!! Well, until you started rubbing it in. But, I guess it was worth it for you, huh. :D

I am? :eek: Thanks!
You didn't know I was sitting here trying not to use this several time ? :doh:
LOL! I couldn't find a smilie that bites his tongue! OUCH! But I understand how us preachers and teachers have 2000 words vs. the average person's 100 . (another time, another thread);)

I sure hope you know I'm just joking with you because you are so good natured about it! :D

[Trish1947]

OK Trish what do you say about this?


We believe that those that physically die without receiving Jesus Christ and His sacrifice has no further opportunity to hear the Gospel and repent. We believe that those that physically die without receiving Jesus Christ and His sacrifice has no further opportunity to hear the Gospel and repent. They are condemned and will be cast into the lake of fire, the second death, with the devil and his evil spirits, to pay the full retribution of their sin without grace or mercy. That judgment is eternal, and cannot be revoked. (Hebrews 9:27, Matt 25:41,46 , Rev 21:6, 8, Rev 20:10, 14, 15)

21:6, 8 as a reference. "It is finished' implies that there will be no grace or mercy shown, and God's judgement is final for those who are not saved. Mat 25:41,46

OR


We believe that those that physically die without receiving Jesus Christ and His sacrifice has no further opportunity to hear the Gospel and repent, and will be eternally lost in a literal hell. (Hebrews 9:27, Rev 20:10, Rev 20:14)
Well it challenges my theological mind set. LOL..Not really, The first one.. It makes me want to repent all over again.!! It's pretty plain, thats it's not good to die without Christ. But I prefer the second one. I know I'm probably behind here, and havent really been on the computer even though it looked like I have.

We just got some horrible news of a suicide in the family. And right now, I can't even think.

[J4Jesus]

OH I'm sorry Trish :cry:
You rest in the Lord, And we can get back to this later ok? :) whenever you're ready
But we can go with the last one if they will since I think they said ok but preferred the other.

[J4Jesus]

Actually, David and Pdudgeon
I was going to put that last part in too. But I thought maybe to keep it simple just put the reference, would be sufficient. (since its almost word for word)
Read the references I had.
We could put some of those references on the other too for clarification.

[Trish1947]

OH I'm sorry Trish :cry:
You rest in the Lord, And we can get back to this later ok? :) whenever you're ready
But we can go with the last one if they will since I think they said ok but preferred the other.
Thank you so much. Here we are talking about the judgements. It was my ex-son-in-law. I had just led this young man to the Lord not six months ago. He was so happy. I'm just sick.

[J4Jesus]

Thank you so much. Here we are talking about the judgements. It was my ex-son-in-law. I had just led this young man to the Lord not six months ago. He was so happy. I'm just sick.
When they are young in the Lord, sometimes its a struggle. They arent real grounded and its easy to get discouraged. The Holy Spirit is your comfort. He's there to lean on and cry to and to hold you :)

[Trish1947]

When they are young in the Lord, sometimes its a struggle. They arent real grounded and its easy to get discouraged. The Holy Spirit is your comfort. He's there to lean on and cry to and to hold you :)
Thank you for those comforting words. And it is so true. I'll let you get back to the task at hand. I'll be back later on.

[J4Jesus]

We'll be praying for you and your family :)
God bless

[DavidPresently]

Trish, I'm sorry to see the news about what you are going through. May you find strength in the Lord.

[Trish1947]

Update: Thank God he didn't commit suicide. The coroner said it was murder, made to look like a suicide. They found him hanging from a tree in his backyard, but with some evidence found that he was dead before that. I don't know why this makes me feel better, it is still just tragic, I remember the joy he felt when he knew God had forgiven him.

I am ready to proceed with the SOF anytime you are.

[DavidPresently]

Update: Thank God he didn't commit suicide. The coroner said it was murder, made to look like a suicide. They found him hanging from a tree in his backyard, but with some evidence found that he was dead before that. I don't know why this makes me feel better, it is still just tragic, I remember the joy he felt when he knew God had forgiven him.

I am ready to proceed with the SOF anytime you are.

May the investigators be blessed in their work and may justice be served.

Thank God for you and your witness to that young man! May you be blessed and filled with joy in the grace of God at work in and through you.

[LeadWorship]

Let my yea's be yea, and let me say yea on this as well.

"Yea".

David THIS is what we are voting on and I do not see the statement you mention on here. If its here please quote it. I take that as a YES for all these ?


Do you agree with these points for our WOF statement?

YES: J4Jesus, pdudgeon, Trish1947, DavidPresently


NO:

We believe that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. (Romans 3:23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=3&verse=23&version=9&context=verse)). We believe that by grace we are saved through faith, salvation can not be obtained through works, and that Jesus is the only way to receive the gift of salvation (Ephesians 2:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=eph%202:8;&version=9;), John 14:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=14&verse=6&version=9&context=verse), Acts 4:12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%204:12;&version=47;)).


We believe that unless we are born again, we will not see the Kingdom of God, and while we were yet sinners, God demonstrated His Love for us by sending us His Son, Jesus to die for our sins (John 3:3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%203:3;&version=9;), Romans 5:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rom%205:8;&version=9;)).

We believe that when we repent, confess with our mouths that Jesus is Lord, and believe in our hearts that God raised Him from the dead, that we are now justified by his blood, and shall be saved from wrath through him ( Luke 13:5, Rom 10:9-13, Rom 5:9 ).

We believe that Jesus' sacrifice for us is full and sufficient for our redemption and full restoration into right relationship with the Father, and when you have received the free gift of salvation, you become a new creature in Christ, old things are passed away and all things become new (Hebrews 7:27 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Heb%207:27;&version=9;), Romans 3:21-22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rom%203:21-22;&version=9;), 2 Corinthians 5:17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=54&chapter=5&verse=17&version=9&context=verse)).[Edit :count]

I like the nit-picking though. We don't want to rashly throw this out there to be trampled. Let's keep our inspiritaion Divine, and our measuring stick the Word as we continue to pull each point together.

And for what it's worth, if it takes 3 weeks to fully delve into a point that produces more clarity in its meaning, I think its worth it.

[J4Jesus]

Do you agree with these points for our WOF statement?


YES: J4Jesus, pdudgeon, Trish1947, DavidPresently. LeadWorship, TheGloryisHere


NO:


We believe that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. (Romans 3:23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=3&verse=23&version=9&context=verse)). We believe that by grace we are saved through faith, salvation can not be obtained through works, and that Jesus is the only way to receive the gift of salvation (Ephesians 2:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=eph%202:8;&version=9;), John 14:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=14&verse=6&version=9&context=verse), Acts 4:12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%204:12;&version=47;)).


We believe that unless we are born again, we will not see the Kingdom of God, and while we were yet sinners, God demonstrated His Love for us by sending us His Son, Jesus to die for our sins (John 3:3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%203:3;&version=9;), Romans 5:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rom%205:8;&version=9;)).

We believe that when we repent, confess with our mouths that Jesus is Lord, and believe in our hearts that God raised Him from the dead, that we are now justified by his blood, and shall be saved from wrath through him ( Luke 13:5, Rom 10:9-13, Rom 5:9 ).

We believe that Jesus' sacrifice for us is full and sufficient for our redemption and full restoration into right relationship with the Father, and when you have received the free gift of salvation, you become a new creature in Christ, old things are passed away and all things become new (Hebrews 7:27 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Heb%207:27;&version=9;), Romans 3:21-22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rom%203:21-22;&version=9;), 2 Corinthians 5:17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=54&chapter=5&verse=17&version=9&context=verse)).

[TheGloryisHere]

Do you agree with these points for our WOF statement?

YES: J4Jesus, pdudgeon, Trish1947, DavidPresently. LeadWorship


NO:

We believe that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. (Romans 3:23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=3&verse=23&version=9&context=verse)). We believe that by grace we are saved through faith, salvation can not be obtained through works, and that Jesus is the only way to receive the gift of salvation (Ephesians 2:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=eph%202:8;&version=9;), John 14:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=14&verse=6&version=9&context=verse), Acts 4:12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%204:12;&version=47;)).


We believe that unless we are born again, we will not see the Kingdom of God, and while we were yet sinners, God demonstrated His Love for us by sending us His Son, Jesus to die for our sins (John 3:3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%203:3;&version=9;), Romans 5:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rom%205:8;&version=9;)).

We believe that when we repent, confess with our mouths that Jesus is Lord, and believe in our hearts that God raised Him from the dead, that we are now justified by his blood, and shall be saved from wrath through him ( Luke 13:5, Rom 10:9-13, Rom 5:9 ).

We believe that Jesus' sacrifice for us is full and sufficient for our redemption and full restoration into right relationship with the Father, and when you have received the free gift of salvation, you become a new creature in Christ, old things are passed away and all things become new (Hebrews 7:27 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Heb%207:27;&version=9;), Romans 3:21-22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rom%203:21-22;&version=9;), 2 Corinthians 5:17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=54&chapter=5&verse=17&version=9&context=verse)).
I vote yes

[TheGloryisHere]

Hell is not forever. The Bible says all of hell will be thrown in the lake of fire. But, I don't feel it's needed to decide who gets to post here or not. So, maybe my vote isn't needed on this one.

[J4Jesus]

Hell is not forever. The Bible says all of hell will be thrown in the lake of fire. But, I don't feel it's needed to decide who gets to post here or not. So, maybe my vote isn't needed on this one.

We had all that on here but it was kind of graphic at the moment. We will work on that point later. :) Right now its just the first 4 points. I added you.

[Father Rick]

I hate to go back to re-work something, but wanted to point out something that seems to have been overlooked: We believe in the one, true God. Our God is manifested in three separate, distinct, eternal Persons - the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost (Spirit); these three are one (Deut. 6:4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deut%206:4&version=9); Phil. 2:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Phil%202:6;&version=9;); 1 John 5:7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20John%205:7;&version=9;)). God the Father is greater than all; the Sender of the Word (Logos) and the Begetter (John 14:28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2014:28;&version=9;); John 16:28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2016:28;&version=9;); John 1:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%201:14;&version=9;)). The Son is the Word made flesh, the One Begotten, and has existed with the Father from the beginning (John 1:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%201:1;&version=9;); John 1:18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%201:18;&version=9;); John 1:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%201:14;&version=9;)). The Holy Ghost (Spirit) proceeds from the Father, is sent forth by the Son, and testifies of Him (Jesus) (John 14:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2014:16;&version=9;); John 15:26 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2015:26;&version=9;)).This states that the Son existed with the Father from the beginning, but does not say the same about the Holy Spirit, and since it does specifically state the Spirit proceeds from the Father, this could easily be interpretted as the Spirit "coming later"... not existing from the beginning with the Father and the Son.

[DavidPresently]

I hate to go back to re-work something, but wanted to point out something that seems to have been overlooked: This states that the Son existed with the Father from the beginning, but does not say the same about the Holy Spirit, and since it does specifically state the Spirit proceeds from the Father, this could easily be interpretted as the Spirit "coming later"... not existing from the beginning with the Father and the Son.

The primary reason it is important to state such specifically about Jesus is that there are many today who are turning to believe that he did not pre-exist but came to be in Mary's womb.

I've never heard of anyone who believes in Messiah arguing that the Holy Spirit didn't exist until some certain point in time, such as Pentecost in Acts 2. Therefore, there is no need to state such specifically at this time.

But, you are correct, the statement about God is not complete - it doesn't give every detail about what we believe about God - it is a general statement that shows the most important points to us.

Do you know of anyone that believes or teaches that the Holy Spirit is not eternal??

BTW - it is indirectly stated that the Holy Spirit is eternal, as it says all three persons are eternal. First line.

[J4Jesus]

The primary reason it is important to state such specifically about Jesus is that there are many today who are turning to believe that he did not pre-exist but came to be in Mary's womb.

I've never heard of anyone who believes in Messiah arguing that the Holy Spirit didn't exist until some certain point in time, such as Pentecost in Acts 2. Therefore, there is no need to state such specifically at this time.

But, you are correct, the statement about God is not complete - it doesn't give every detail about what we believe about God - it is a general statement that shows the most important points to us.

Do you know of anyone that believes or teaches that the Holy Spirit is not eternal??

BTW - it is indirectly stated that the Holy Spirit is eternal, as it says all three persons are eternal. First line.

Right. Eternal mean He always exist. Besides the statement these three are ONE. So Father, Son, Spirit would all have to had always existed or none did. I have never heard anyone argue that point either. It's true we can't go into depth on the general rules, or it would be detailed and cease to be general ;).

[lyonguard]

I vote yes.

BTW, it's really hot here in NC. I'm sure glad I'm a Christian because if I hate the heat here I know I couldn't stand the lake of fire!

[Trish1947]

Right. Eternal mean He always exist. Besides the statement these three are ONE. So Father, Son, Spirit would all have to had always existed or none did. I have never heard anyone argue that point either. It's true we can't go into depth on the general rules, or it would be detailed and cease to be general ;).
Well it does say in the Bible that Gen 1:2 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Gen&c=1&v=2&version=KJV#2) And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

It also says: Col 1:16 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Col&c=1&v=16&version=KJV#16) For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

So is there a difference in the Holy Spirit and the Spirit of God? I personally don't think so, but it's visable in scripture that the Spirit of God who is a Spirit, was present at the creation.

[J4Jesus]

I started to post Gen 1 too

[J4Jesus]

Just as an FYI, I'm here, I'm watching, I'm agreeing, and I'll speak up when I see something I disagree with.

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h128/petesarah/Smilies/popcorn.gif
'agreeing' ;)

OK

[J4Jesus]

Do you agree with these points for our WOF statement?



YES: J4Jesus, pdudgeon, Trish1947, DavidPresently. LeadWorship, TheGloryisHere. lyonguard, probinson



NO: ---


We believe that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. (Romans 3:23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=3&verse=23&version=9&context=verse)). We believe that by grace we are saved through faith, salvation can not be obtained through works, and that Jesus is the only way to receive the gift of salvation (Ephesians 2:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=eph%202:8;&version=9;), John 14:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=14&verse=6&version=9&context=verse), Acts 4:12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%204:12;&version=47;)).


We believe that unless we are born again, we will not see the Kingdom of God, and while we were yet sinners, God demonstrated His Love for us by sending us His Son, Jesus to die for our sins (John 3:3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%203:3;&version=9;), Romans 5:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rom%205:8;&version=9;)).

We believe that when we repent, confess with our mouths that Jesus is Lord, and believe in our hearts that God raised Him from the dead, that we are now justified by his blood, and shall be saved from wrath through him ( Luke 13:5, Rom 10:9-13, Rom 5:9 ).

We believe that Jesus' sacrifice for us is full and sufficient for our redemption and full restoration into right relationship with the Father, and when you have received the free gift of salvation, you become a new creature in Christ, old things are passed away and all things become new (Hebrews 7:27 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Heb%207:27;&version=9;), Romans 3:21-22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rom%203:21-22;&version=9;), 2 Corinthians 5:17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=54&chapter=5&verse=17&version=9&context=verse)).









.

[DavidPresently]

Well it does say in the Bible that Gen 1:2 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Gen&c=1&v=2&version=KJV#2) And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

It also says: Col 1:16 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Col&c=1&v=16&version=KJV#16) For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

So is there a difference in the Holy Spirit and the Spirit of God? I personally don't think so, but it's visable in scripture that the Spirit of God who is a Spirit, was present at the creation.

I've never known or heard of a believer in Messiah disputing such (the Holy Spirit being eternal with the Father and Son). Plus, it is stated in our statement about God. The reason for the more specific statement about Jesus being the Son who was with the Father (and Holy Spirit) in the beginning, is because there are groups today teaching/preaching that the Son did not exist until the conception in Mary, and that he is just an exalted man. I personally know some who believe that and argue it. Against what Scripture says.

[DavidPresently]

Do you agree with these points for our WOF statement?



YES: J4Jesus, pdudgeon, Trish1947, DavidPresently. LeadWorship, TheGloryisHere. lyonguard, probinson



NO: ---


We believe that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. (Romans 3:23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=3&verse=23&version=9&context=verse)). We believe that by grace we are saved through faith, salvation can not be obtained through works, and that Jesus is the only way to receive the gift of salvation (Ephesians 2:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=eph%202:8;&version=9;), John 14:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=14&verse=6&version=9&context=verse), Acts 4:12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%204:12;&version=47;)).


We believe that unless we are born again, we will not see the Kingdom of God, and while we were yet sinners, God demonstrated His Love for us by sending us His Son, Jesus to die for our sins (John 3:3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%203:3;&version=9;), Romans 5:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rom%205:8;&version=9;)).

We believe that when we repent, confess with our mouths that Jesus is Lord, and believe in our hearts that God raised Him from the dead, that we are now justified by his blood, and shall be saved from wrath through him ( Luke 13:5, Rom 10:9-13, Rom 5:9 ).

We believe that Jesus' sacrifice for us is full and sufficient for our redemption and full restoration into right relationship with the Father, and when you have received the free gift of salvation, you become a new creature in Christ, old things are passed away and all things become new (Hebrews 7:27 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Heb%207:27;&version=9;), Romans 3:21-22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rom%203:21-22;&version=9;), 2 Corinthians 5:17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=54&chapter=5&verse=17&version=9&context=verse)).









.

Unanimous among the regular participants and voters once again. I'd say we can safely move on now. :wave:

[probinson]

Unanimous among the regular participants and voters once again. I'd say we can safely move on now. :wave:
Sounds good.

I'll put this part into the wiki tomorrow

[J4Jesus]

Unanimous among the regular participants and voters once again. I'd say we can safely move on now. :wave:

Some are gone on the weekend or too busy to get on here .

But we could starting work on the others. There were two other parts under

Concerning Salvation, WE BELIEVE
on the wiki besides the one we had been trying to re-word.

[top] (http://www.christianforums.com/t5672300#top)SANCTIFICATION

The Bible teaches that without holiness no man can see the Lord. We believe in the Doctrine of Sanctification as a definite, yet progressive work of grace, commencing at the time of regeneration and continuing until the consummation of salvation at Christ's return (Heb. 12:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Heb%2012:14;&version=9;); 1 Thess. 5:23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Thess%205:23;&version=9;); 2 Peter 3:18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Peter%203:18;&version=9;); 2 Cor. 3:18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Cor%203:18;&version=9;); Phil. 3:12-14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Phil%203:12-14;&version=9;); 1 Cor. 1:30 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Cor%201:30;&version=9;)).[top] (http://www.christianforums.com/t5672300#top)RESURRECTION OF THE JUST AND THE RETURN OF OUR LORD

The angels said to Jesus' disciples, "...This same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven." His coming is imminent. When He comes, "...The dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air..." (Acts 1:11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%201:11;&version=9;); 1 Thess. 4:16,17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Thess%204:16-17;&version=9;)).Following the Tribulation, He shall return to earth as King of kings, and Lord of lords, and together with His saints, who shall be kings and priests, He shall reign a thousand years (Rev. 5:10;20:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%205:10;20:6;&version=9;)).

[J4Jesus]

David some of us agreed on either one of the one you and Trish were working on. Do you want to see how you two can reword that other one? I can repost the last 1 or 2 versions if you wish..

[Trish1947]

I've never known or heard of a believer in Messiah disputing such (the Holy Spirit being eternal with the Father and Son). Plus, it is stated in our statement about God. The reason for the more specific statement about Jesus being the Son who was with the Father (and Holy Spirit) in the beginning, is because there are groups today teaching/preaching that the Son did not exist until the conception in Mary, and that he is just an exalted man. I personally know some who believe that and argue it. Against what Scripture says.
I had no idea anyone believed this. O.k. moving on then.

[J4Jesus]

[top]HELL AND ETERNAL RE