Mormans, Jehovah's Witness and Seventh-day Advintist [Archive]

Aibrean

29th June 2007, 11:02 PM

Some people declare Adventists to be a cult but that is not true. A cult is someone who puts their own teachings above the Bible which we do not do. We use Scripture for everything.
As for 7th Day Adventists. My fiance's family is all SDA and when he told them he was going to be baptized at a Lutheran church his mother had a fit saying she did not approve and that Lutherans were "the devil". She called her mother and told her about it so she's upset too.

Where in the Bible does it say that Catholics and Lutherans (and pretty much everyone else that goes to church on Sunday) are "the devil"?

How can a denomination with so much hate against fellow believers ever be considered a true "follower of the Bible"?

The statement I expressed above is due to the fact of the brainwashing of SDA on those in the congregation and children that go through their schooling. To stress this...I pull this quote:
"Adventists believe, on the basis of biblical predictions, that just prior to the second coming of Christ this earth will experience a period of unprecedented turmoil, with the seventh-day Sabbath as a focal point. In that context, we expect that world religions--including the major Christian bodies as key players--will align themselves with the forces in opposition to God and to the Sabbath."

Basically it says everyone who isn't SDA is going to be on the side of the devil in the last days. That is a bunch of crap.

Kazamataz

29th June 2007, 11:12 PM

As for 7th Day Adventists. My fiance's family is all SDA and when he told them he was going to be baptized at a Lutheran church his mother had a fit saying she did not approve and that Lutherans were "the devil". She called her mother and told her about it so she's upset too.

Where in the Bible does it say that Catholics and Lutherans (and pretty much everyone else that goes to church on Sunday) are "the devil"?

How can a denomination with so much hate against fellow believers ever be considered a true "follower of the Bible"?

The statement I expressed above is due to the fact of the brainwashing of SDA on those in the congregation and children that go through their schooling. To stress this...I pull this quote:
"Adventists believe, on the basis of biblical predictions, that just prior to the second coming of Christ this earth will experience a period of unprecedented turmoil, with the seventh-day Sabbath as a focal point. In that context, we expect that world religions--including the major Christian bodies as key players--will align themselves with the forces in opposition to God and to the Sabbath."

Basically it says everyone who isn't SDA is going to be on the side of the devil in the last days. That is a bunch of crap.
WOW ok that does sound like a cult to me.

Are SDA's the people who belive in having more than one wife?

(besides muslims i mean)

Aibrean

29th June 2007, 11:14 PM

That would be mormons. Also, the watchtower thing, that might be an offshoot of Adventists or it could be some other sect.
Mormons (in Utah) believe in works in addition to faith, as in there are other ways to get to heaven...and they take heaven as more of a caste system. They take more than one wife.

At least that's what I've discovered through my research.

BTW, that SDA quote is pulled directly off of their site.

It seems like every "denomination/religion" started by people having a vision twists the Bible or dilutes it.

Mankin

29th June 2007, 11:37 PM

I don't believe that Lutherns are the "devil". I am not a fundamentalist Adventist. Adventist is not a cult because we follow the Bible in its entirerty. Do not bash my religion. Also about prophets. It is said in the Bible that in the last days people will have visions. The Bible has a code of standards as to how to determine whether these prophets are real or false.

Mankin

29th June 2007, 11:40 PM

Adventists do not have their own version of the Bible. Ellen G White, our prophet, used everything from the Bible. She only received three years of education yet she was able to write many books. Prophets and Kings and Patriarchs and Prophets are very interesting complentaries on the Bible. She said that she did not want to be called a prophet, she was just God's servant. She did prophecy at times. One time she held a large book with her arm stretched out for two hours. Such a feat is impossible for someone as weak as her so there had to be some divine precense at work.

Mankin

29th June 2007, 11:42 PM

That person that called it the devil was obviously just mad and conservative. I think it has to do with the Sabbath thing. The fourth commandment is of the ten commandments, "Keep the seventh day the Sabbath holy." The Bible is clear on this.

Mankin

29th June 2007, 11:43 PM

I don't follow Ellen White blindly, I don't follow her at all. Not everything she said was divinely inspired. I believe she was a prophet worth mentioning, but we Adventists do not put her above the Bible. She said not to put herself above the Bible.

Mankin

29th June 2007, 11:45 PM

On a further note, Adventists do not believe that Adventists are the focal point of Revalation. THey believe in something called the remaining church in the last days. They believe that many Christians will be part of this church that do not bow to the Beast. I am open to different ideas in Revalation and I do not agree with a lot of things my fellow Adventists say.

Mankin

29th June 2007, 11:47 PM

Ask questions on the Seventh Day Adventist forum before you form a judgment. You can ask questions either on the main forum or progressive Adventists sub forum, which is the more liberal Adventists.

Aibrean

30th June 2007, 12:08 AM

I'm bashing SDA as a whole, not your "religion" or your church . I find SDA can be initially thought of as a cult because of the warped theology that many cling to and the steep amount of legalism. There are some SDA churches that have realized that and are more "universally Christian" in their theology. One in point is the SDA church in Kettering, Ohio (home to the Kettering Medical Center). I haven't heard anything there that would make me believe they would ever consider me "evil". I went to another SDA church near Pittsburgh that didn't even have an ordained minister, didn't read from the Bible (he read from the Great Controversy) and was "preaching" about different planets parallel to ours.

The SDA "church" was started up by Millerites that thought the world was going to end in 1844. They didn't even adopt the Trinity until the 20th century. As for the basis of why Christian denominations believe worshiping on Sunday is okay, read the passage below.

Romans 14:5-12

5One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.

6He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God.

7For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone.

8If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.
9For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

10You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat.

11It is written:
" 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord,
'every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will confess to God.' "
12So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.

SDA baptisms are considered legitimate and the most important fundamental belief is there. Cults are those that don't believe Jesus is the way, truth, and life and there are other ways to get to heaven other than believing we have God's grace through our faith in Jesus. SDA is definitely not a cult, but the way they do "business" makes it seem that way at times.

Aibrean

30th June 2007, 12:09 AM

The quote I pulled is directly from the SDA website...

adventist.org/beliefs/statements/main_stat42.html

Kazamataz

30th June 2007, 02:07 AM

Ok so SDA aren't a cult but they may appear to be a cult if you don't fully understand them?

no wonder i'm confused :0)

Kazamataz

30th June 2007, 02:08 AM

So do SDA's worship this Ellen G White person too?

who is she? and why is she so special?

Kazamataz

30th June 2007, 02:10 AM

So are SDA's the people who go to church on Saturday?

Kazamataz

30th June 2007, 02:10 AM

Maybe i should just post all my questions about SDA's in the SDA thread.

Aibrean

30th June 2007, 07:38 AM

Maybe i should just post all my questions about SDA's in the SDA thread.
They don't worship Ellen...she is like the John Calvin or Martin Luther to them. Some sects consider her almost as a prophet because of the visions she had and when it starts getting "cultish" is when they take her words over the Bible. When I went to that one church I was like "what ARE they reading from?" because I hadn't ever heard the words before. That's when I noticed no one had the Bible in their hands and then people in congregation were asking the "lack thereof minister" really deep questions like "will God answer our questions in heaven?" and the guy said "No". How does he know?? Has he died?

Like I said, not all churches are like that, it just depends on where you go.

Mankin

30th June 2007, 01:31 PM

Read my previous post. We don't worship Ellen although I think sometimes some Adventists put her ideas up on a higher pedastal than the Bible. She did not want that to happen. She did not want to known as a prophet.

Eila

1st July 2007, 03:16 AM

She did not want to known as a prophet.

Actually she said:

"Early in my youth I was asked several times, Are you a prophet? I have ever responded, I am the Lord's messenger. I know that many have called me a prophet, but I have made no claim to this title. My Saviour declared me to be his messenger. 'Your work,' he instructed me, 'is to bear my word. ... It is not you that speaketh: it is the Lord that giveth the messages of warning and reproof. Never deviate from the truth under any circumstances . Give the light I shall give you. The messages for these last days shall be written in books, and shall stand immortalized, to testify against those who have once rejoiced in the light, but who have been led to give it up because of the seductive influences of evil.' Why have I not claimed to be a prophet?--Because in these days many who boldly claim that they are prophets are a reproach to the cause of Christ; and because my work includes much more than the word 'prophet' signifies." (Review and Herald, July 26, 1907)

From Selected Messages Volume 1

"The Work of a Prophet and More

During the discourse, I said that I did not claim to be a prophetess. Some were surprised at this statement, and as
36
much is being said in regard to it, I will make an explanation. Others have called me a prophetess, but I have never assumed that title. I have not felt that it was my duty thus to designate myself. Those who boldly assume that they are prophets in this our day are often a reproach to the cause of Christ. {1SM 35.6} My work includes much more than this name signifies. I regard myself as a messenger, entrusted by the Lord with messages for His people.--Letter 55, 1905. {1SM 36.1}

I am now instructed that I am not to be hindered in my work by those who engage in suppositions regarding its nature, whose minds are struggling with so many intricate problems connected with the supposed work of a prophet. My commission embraces the work of a prophet, but it does not end there. It embraces much more than the minds of those who have been sowing the seeds of unbelief can comprehend.--Letter 244, 1906. (Addressed to elders of Battle Creek church.) {1SM 36.2}"

She didn't claim to be a prophetess, but more than a prophetess. And not just more than a prophetess, but more than can be comprehended.

Kazamataz

1st July 2007, 04:01 AM

She didn't claim to be a prophetess, but more than a prophetess. And not just more than a prophetess, but more than can be comprehended.

Now I don't like the sounds of that. Sounds like she placed herself on a pedestal.

Mankin

1st July 2007, 11:57 PM

She was humble though. She just said her work was more than just being a prophet.

texastig

2nd July 2007, 12:03 AM

Doesn't the SDA believe the Michael the ArchAngel is Jesus?
Thanks,
TexasTig

Aibrean

2nd July 2007, 06:56 AM

Doesn't the SDA believe the Michael the ArchAngel is Jesus?
Thanks,
TexasTig
None that I've ever been to.

Eila

2nd July 2007, 03:08 PM

Doesn't the SDA believe the Michael the ArchAngel is Jesus?
Thanks,
TexasTig

They do believe Jesus is Michael the ArchAngel and the Son of God, although I believe the current understanding is that Jesus was not a created being. Many SDAs (to my knowledge) believe Michael is another name for Jesus.

Mankin

3rd July 2007, 11:44 AM

Yes, we do believe that Michael is another name for Jesus. As for the Saturday thing. We believe in worshiping on Saturday because of the ten commandments. The fourth commandment says, "Thou shall keep the seventh day, the sabbath, holy. You shall not labor on that day" At the beginning of creation, God ordained the seventh day as a day of rest.

djconklin

4th July 2007, 08:13 AM

Basically it says everyone who isn't SDA is going to be on the side of the devil in the last days. That is a bunch of crap.

I would agree that the 1st sentence is a "bunch of crap." SDA's do NOT teach that everyone has to be SDA in the last days. We don't even believe that all SDA's will be saved--so why would teach that everyone else has to be SDA? However, in the very last days God does say:

"... Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues." (Rev. 18:4)

This implies that there will be two sets of people on the last days: those who serve God with all their heart, mind and strength and love their neighbors as themselves, and those who don't.

Kazamataz

4th July 2007, 08:17 AM

xristos.anesti

4th July 2007, 12:08 PM

Kazamataz, mate - as someone who was SDA - I see SDA as a cult.

Don't get me wrong, there is a lot of good people, truly good people in SDA.

Also, I am not sure about what Mankin is talking about - but, you see, SDA considers EGW to be THE prophetess– and for someone to be a true SDA he has to believe that she is THE prophetess.

Now Mankin probably does not believe her, but then he is like a Roman Catholic who does not hold Papal infallibility, or a JW who does not read Watchtower - so honestly, ask yourself, is that person really a Roman Catholic/JW if he does not hold these things.

Same here.

The 18th doctrine of SDA (The Gift of Prophecy) states:

One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen. G. White. As the Lord's messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction...

So, SDA members can say whatever they want – some probably do not hold every one of 27 doctrines they have (at least listed as the main ones), but to be a true member of the SDA you have to hold them – and in holding them, you have to hold that EGW is THE prophetess who’s writings are authoritative source of truth.

Now, I am an Orthodox – we have thousands of fathers – but none is authoritative source of truth – neither was Luther, Calvin, Wesley…. I mean, in all honesty, not even Roman Pope has these prerogatives as EGW doea – she is authoritative and a prophetess – she “predicted” future – trust me – she is a big thing in SDA, the best one since sliced bread…

Anyway, I believe (rather subjectively but) – having been exposed to SDA – that they are as cultish as JW – not worse, but as cultish – I can not comment on Mormons as I do not know them, but I know JW and SDA and trust me (if you can trust a person who is an Eastern Orthodox who was a former SDA and is a wog ^_^ ) SDA can say whatever they want - when you are a SDA you believe into mama.

Eila

4th July 2007, 10:11 PM

I would agree that the 1st sentence is a "bunch of crap." SDA's do NOT teach that everyone has to be SDA in the last days. We don't even believe that all SDA's will be saved--so why would teach that everyone else has to be SDA? However, in the very last days God does say:

"... Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues." (Rev. 18:4)

This implies that there will be two sets of people on the last days: those who serve God with all their heart, mind and strength and love their neighbors as themselves, and those who don't.

I think she was expressing the SDA belief that Christians need to keep the Sabbath in the end times in order to be saved. This is reflected in the mission statement and evangelism efforts of the SDA church.

The belief that Christians who are not-SDAs will need to join the remnant group is from Revelation where it says the saints are those who 'keep the commandments and have the testimony of Jesus". It is from Revelation, but SDAs use Ellen White to define those terms. Ellen White has said that the Sabbath commandment shines brighter than all the others and SDAs focus on this commandment above all the others. SDAs point out that the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy and Ellen White is defined by SDAs as the "spirit of prophecy". So if you come right down to it the quote from Revelation "keep the commandments and have the testimony of Jesus" is defined by many SDAs as a group that keeps the Sabbath and believes in Ellen Whites writings.

Kazamataz

5th July 2007, 12:36 AM

I think she was expressing the SDA belief that Christians need to keep the Sabbath in the end times in order to be saved. This is reflected in the mission statement and evangelism efforts of the SDA church.

The belief that Christians who are not-SDAs will need to join the remnant group is from Revelation where it says the saints are those who 'keep the commandments and have the testimony of Jesus". It is from Revelation, but SDAs use Ellen White to define those terms. Ellen White has said that the Sabbath commandment shines brighter than all the others and SDAs focus on this commandment above all the others. SDAs point out that the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy and Ellen White is defined by SDAs as the "spirit of prophecy". So if you come right down to it the quote from Revelation "keep the commandments and have the testimony of Jesus" is defined by many SDAs as a group that keeps the Sabbath and believes in Ellen Whites writings.

WOW ok now i really have the answer to the whole saturday church thing then. So Ellen G White says that remembering the Sabbath is the most important commandment.

However when Jesus himself was asked what is the greatest commandment he simply said Love.

Below are three different bible translations (i can get more if you need me too) but they all say the same thing.

Jesus said nothing was more important than love.

I no longer need to ask any more questions about SDA i have my answers now. It's a cult and I will be staying far away from it.

Mark 12:28-31 (New International Version)
28One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"

29"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.[e]

30Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'[f]

31The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[g]There is no commandment greater than these."

Mark 12:28-31 (King James Version)

28And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?

29And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

30And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

31And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

Mark 12:28-31 (New Living Translation)

The Most Important Commandment

28 One of the teachers of religious law was standing there listening to the debate. He realized that Jesus had answered well, so he asked, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”

29 Jesus replied, “The most important commandment is this: ‘Listen, O Israel! The Lord our God is the one and only Lord.

30 And you must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind, and all your strength.’[a]

31 The second is equally important: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] No other commandment is greater than these.”

Mankin

5th July 2007, 11:54 AM

No she did not say keeping the Sabbath was the most important commandment. JW have their own version of the Bible, Seventh Day Adventists do not. Being cultish means puting your own teaching above Holy Scripiture which we don't do. I have heard many interpretations of Scripture that I might call cultic, the secret rapture for one. That does not make the church cultic. In the Bible, it says in the Last days, people will prophecy. I believe she was a prophetess to a certain point. I don't believe every thing she said about certain doctrines, but her books do have good insight into the Bible.

xristos.anesti

5th July 2007, 12:33 PM

WOW ok now i really have the answer to the whole saturday church thing then. So Ellen G White says that remembering the Sabbath is the most important commandment.

However when Jesus himself was asked what is the greatest commandment he simply said Love.

Below are three different bible translations (i can get more if you need me too) but they all say the same thing.

Jesus said nothing was more important than love.

I no longer need to ask any more questions about SDA i have my answers now. It's a cult and I will be staying far away from it.

Mark 12:28-31 (New International Version)
28One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"

29"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.[e]

30Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'[f]

31The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[g]There is no commandment greater than these."

Mark 12:28-31 (King James Version)

28And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?

29And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

30And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

31And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

Mark 12:28-31 (New Living Translation)

The Most Important Commandment

28 One of the teachers of religious law was standing there listening to the debate. He realized that Jesus had answered well, so he asked, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”

29 Jesus replied, “The most important commandment is this: ‘Listen, O Israel! The Lord our God is the one and only Lord.

30 And you must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind, and all your strength.’[a]

31 The second is equally important: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] No other commandment is greater than these.”

And you will do well to do so, for cults are dangerous indeed.

Many years.

Eila

5th July 2007, 04:47 PM

No she did not say keeping the Sabbath was the most important commandment.

She said in Maranatha chapter 237 titled "Importance and Glory of the Sabbath":

" I saw the ten commandments written on them [the tables of stone] with the finger of God. On one table were four, and on the other six. The four on the first table shone brighter than the other six. But the fourth, the Sabbath commandment, shone above them all; for the Sabbath was set apart to be kept in honor of God's holy name. The holy Sabbath looked glorious--a halo of glory was all around it. I saw that the Sabbath commandment was not nailed to the cross. If it was, the other nine commandments were; and we are at liberty to break them all, as well as to break the fourth. . . . {Mar 245.3} I saw that the holy Sabbath is, and will be, the separating wall between the true Israel of God and unbelievers; and that the Sabbath is the great question to unite the hearts of God's dear, waiting saints."

Life Sketches of Ellen White page 95 says

"Elder Bates was resting upon Saturday, the seventh day of the week, and he urged it upon our attention as the true Sabbath. I did not feel its importance, and thought that he erred in dwelling upon the fourth commandment more than upon the other nine. {LS 95.3}
But the Lord gave me a view of the heavenly sanctuary. The temple of God was open in heaven, and I was shown the ark of God covered with the mercy seat. Two angels stood one at either end of the ark, with their wings spread over the mercy seat, and their faces turned toward it. This, my accompanying angel informed me, represented all the heavenly host looking with reverential awe toward the law of God, which had been written by the finger of God. {LS 95.4}

Jesus raised the cover of the ark, and I beheld the tables of stone on which the ten commandments were written. I was amazed as I saw the fourth commandment
96
in the very center of the ten precepts, with a soft halo of light encircling it. Said the angel, "It is the only one of the ten which defines the living God who created the heavens and the earth and all things that are therein.""

JW have their own version of the Bible, Seventh Day Adventists do not.

Have you seen the Clear Word Bible? I don't think it is being called a Bible anymore but a devotional paraphrase. You can see one of the many different printings here: http://www.adventistbookcenter.com/Detail.tpl?sku=187895136X

Mankin

5th July 2007, 05:13 PM

You call Adventist a cult, but I could say Orthodoxy or Roman Catholic is a cult. A pope praying to the saints, and asking priests to forgive sins is all cultish in nature and does not have support from the Bible. Jesus never said he needed a replacement on earth, pope, and people who are dead are dead. They don't immediately go to heaven as many denominations will make you think. The Bible itself says so. It says the dead in Christ will rise on Judgment Day and join those alive who are Christians.

Mankin

5th July 2007, 05:14 PM

Cult is all how you interpret the word.

Mankin

5th July 2007, 05:15 PM

Love your neighbor and love God are not part of the Ten commandments. They are extremely important but they are not active commands in the Ten commandments.

Aibrean

5th July 2007, 05:41 PM

Eila

5th July 2007, 05:49 PM

Love your neighbor and love God are not part of the Ten commandments. They are extremely important but they are not active commands in the Ten commandments.

Yes, I think it is important to note that the command Jesus said was most important to the Jews did not even come from the 10 commandments.

Mankin

5th July 2007, 09:23 PM

RCC and Orthodox use saints and priests as an intercessor in prayer. I do have a comment about heaven. The original Greek translates that those who are saved will stay and those who aren't will be taken. It is how you interpret the Bible.

I still hold to the fact that I believe some SDA sects put EW above the Bible because I have been to some churches that solely based everything off (including readings and a sermon) of The Great Controversy.
Well, some RCC don't read from the Bible a lot and use stories of saints for the entire mass. The Great Controversy is about the Bible. If Adventists are putting EW over the Bible, than they are not following what she said. She did not want to be put on a pedastal above the Bible. My church rarely talks about EW. Every once and a while, we will mention something from her books, but that is about it.

xristos.anesti

6th July 2007, 01:42 AM

Mankin, but no one apart from Mormons and you (as far as I know) have a prophet(ess) who's words are authoritative source of truth.

Now maybe you are not as much of a SDA as I was and for you EGW is not authoritative source of truth (see Doctrine number 18) but for me - she was the prophet - she was the vision. And I wonder how can you consider yourself SDA when you can openly state that you do not follow her at all - or anything to that effect.

She has more influence on the SDA church than anyone of the men or women under the sun - or any saint or anyone else for that matter has influence on any other organisation, except Mormons and Moslems who have their prophets who are authoritative sources of “truth”.

Again, SDA is a cultish organisation and we the former SDA are witness to that - if you are wise you will join the ranks of former SDA for you are free from the Jewish law - it is all shadow of things to come brother, shadow and nothing else.

Aibrean

6th July 2007, 07:19 AM

Well, some RCC don't read from the Bible a lot and use stories of saints for the entire mass. The Great Controversy is about the Bible. If Adventists are putting EW over the Bible, than they are not following what she said. She did not want to be put on a pedastal above the Bible. My church rarely talks about EW. Every once and a while, we will mention something from her books, but that is about it.
have you ever been to a mass?

Mankin

6th July 2007, 01:05 PM

The Fourth Commandment is not part of the Jewish law. It is a commandment. No I have not been to a mass, but several Catholic people who have been coming to my church have said that they really like our church because our sermons are all about the Bible.

Mankin

6th July 2007, 01:06 PM

The Bible said that there would be prophets in the last days. Some of the things that EW said were prophecies, others were just her advice from her old time.

Mankin

6th July 2007, 01:24 PM

The pope's words are declared to be infalliable as well. My mother agrees with me on the EW thing. Back in her day, everything was weighed on what Ellen White said. Now people are realizing that some of the things she said were advice and not prophecies. I have found that Adventicism has the largest amount of truth among the Christian sects. Sure there are some things in it that I disagree with, but I find more untruths in other sects.

Eila

6th July 2007, 02:47 PM

The Fourth Commandment is not part of the Jewish law. It is a commandment.

I think this is where many former Adventists disagree because there is no Biblical evidence that the 10 commandments were given to anyone but the Jews. In fact the Bible calls the 10 commandments the words of the covenant. Not our covenant, but the old covenant. Our covenant was inaugurated by His blood. Jesus didn't distinguish between the 10 commandments and the rest of the law - it was all the law and He said that not one portion of the law (notice it is not the 10 commandments) would pass away until all was fulfilled. All was fulfilled in Jesus. He fulfilled the old covenant and inaugurated a new covenant. The old covenant was shadows of Jesus - the new covenant is the reality of Jesus and what He has already done.

Eila

6th July 2007, 03:08 PM

The Bible said that there would be prophets in the last days. Some of the things that EW said were prophecies, others were just her advice from her old time.

Would you consider anything where EW said "I was shown", "I saw" or "I have been shown" as something that was from God and therefore they must be true?

Mankin

6th July 2007, 03:58 PM

Paul said in Corthians that we are no longer under the law, but he said in the next verse, "Does this mean we should go on sinning? Certainly NOT!" The New Testament states again and again that we follow the Ten Commandments because we want to not because our salvation depends upon it. We want to follow them because we know that it is God's perfect law. When the rich young ruler asked Jesus how to obtain eternal life, Jesus named a few of the commandments. When the rich young ruler said he had followed all these commands, Jesus said for him to sell his posessions and follow him. The rich young ruler did not follow him. No where in the Bible does it say that the Ten Commandments are void. The new covenant is that we follow the Ten Commandments because we love God and know that his ways are perfect, not because we want to follow it to be saved.

Mankin

6th July 2007, 03:59 PM

Under your reasoning, we should have pre marital sex, steal, curse your parents, and murder.

Mankin

6th July 2007, 04:00 PM

Mankin

6th July 2007, 04:01 PM

Some Christians say that you shouldn't kill babies but that the Ten Commandments are void. That is crap. If they are void, then murdering people would be fine.

Eila

6th July 2007, 04:11 PM

Paul said in Corthians that we are no longer under the law, but he said in the next verse, "Does this mean we should go on sinning? Certainly NOT!"
I think this is where we differ. SDAs believe you need to hold up the 10 commandments to live a life for God. Howver, I believe our actions change because we have God living in us changing us.
2 Corithians 3 talks about the 10 commandments and how they were glorious, but the ministry of the Spirit (Christ living in us) is far more glorious.

The New Testament states again and again that we follow the Ten Commandments because we want to not because our salvation depends upon it.

You will have to point out where the NT says that we follow the 10 commandments because we want to. If you don't believe your salvation is dependent on keeping the 10 commandments then what happens to your salvation if you break a commandment?

No where in the Bible does it say that the Ten Commandments are void. The new covenant is that we follow the Ten Commandments because we love God and know that his ways are perfect, not because we want to follow it to be saved.

2 Corinthians 3 is a good read. Here is a short portion

"4Such is the confidence that we have through Christ toward God. 5Not that we are sufficient in ourselves to claim anything as coming from us, but our sufficiency is from God, 6who has made us competent to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
7Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at Moses' face because of its glory, which was being brought to an end, 8will not the ministry of the Spirit have even more glory? 9For if there was glory in the ministry of condemnation, the ministry of righteousness must far exceed it in glory. 10Indeed, in this case, what once had glory has come to have no glory at all, because of the glory that surpasses it. 11For if what was being brought to an end came with glory, much more will what is permanent have glory."

The Bible doesn't say that the 10 commandments are void. They were not voided, but fulfilled. They were glorious, but they are the ministry of death. And now they have come to have no glory at all because of what we now have.

Ministry of death - 10 commandments- come to an end - had glory
Ministry of the Spirit - our actions change by beholding Him - permanant - surpassing glory

Eila

6th July 2007, 04:12 PM

Under your reasoning, we should have pre marital sex, steal, curse your parents, and murder.

Is the 10 commandments the reason why you don't do those things?

Eila

6th July 2007, 04:15 PM

Paul said himself that we should not go on sinning. What he tried to say is that following the law alone won't save us. We need Jesus's blood. On another note, there is scientic evidence that one day of rest away from work is good for people. God knew what he was doing when he set up the Sabbath.

Resting is a good thing to do :) The Sabbath was a shadow of the reality of Christ. There still remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. This Sabbath is a resting from our labors - not our physical labors, but resting in Jesus. Resting in Him for our salvation. This rest is 24/7.

Eila

6th July 2007, 04:23 PM

Some Christians say that you shouldn't kill babies but that the Ten Commandments are void. That is crap. If they are void, then murdering people would be fine.

We are not commandless. Our commands are specified in the new covenant.

I'm sure you are familiar with Revelation 12 " 17Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus."

John wrote Revelation and he also wrote 1 John. In 1 John he specifies what the "commandments" and the "testimony" are.

1 John 3 says "21Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence before God; 22and whatever we ask we receive from him, because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him. 23And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us. 24Whoever keeps his commandments abides in him, and he in them. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us."

1 John 5 "7For there are three that testify: 8the Spirit and the water and the blood; and these three agree. 9If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater, for this is the testimony of God that he has borne concerning his Son. 10Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son. 11And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life."

Both commandments and testimony are specifically defined and neither of them refer to the 10 commandments or EGW.

A person who acts with apage love will not even think of murdering someone. A person who acts with agape love will not even thing of stealing from someone. We are under a much higher law than "thou shalt not murder".

xristos.anesti

6th July 2007, 04:31 PM

Brother Mankin, if you could just see the freedom - the peace - the simple hope - the courage of leaving the SDA and all it is being taught in that church.

I used to sit there and wait for the sermon to come, to lift me, to give me hope and courage - and I used to measure what the pastor says and think of it as soft or as hard, as uplifting or as not uplifting and had not happiness and was afraid that I am not warm nor cold but lukewarm – and I was neither – I was dead.

I used to sing songs and think about the issues and how nothing means nothing, and how I will never keep the law, how I will never be as EGW said I should be – I had nothing - I was Laodicean and was to be spat out. Will I be there when the Service above is closed, will I be good enough?

And for ages never had peace, and all was empty – and only a former SDA can understand what I speak of – and those current ones who are honest enough, who are not afraid.

Sabbath is shadow, law is the shadow, Old Testament is the shadow – it is all nothing but Christ Jesus who came to give us freedom, who re-created everything so that will again be good – and as the first Adam fell to consequences of his sin – so does New Adam raising all to the consequences of resurrection – new law, Lord’s commandments – love God with all you heart and all you soul and the fellow human as you love yourself – no Sabbath, no clean food, nothing – for we are free in Christ, we are new in Christ – and what is new does not need old to be slaved under, for we are the new creation.

For it is all ministration of death that is passing by and is fulfilled in Him – the New Adam. Christ not EGW, truth not plagiarism, freedom not enslavement –

There is no happiness where you are and you know it.

God bless you.

Mankin

6th July 2007, 04:35 PM

Mankin

6th July 2007, 04:38 PM

Mankin

6th July 2007, 04:40 PM

Without laws, there can be no freedom. There can be only chaos. God is just so he knows what laws are good for us. No other laws in Leviticus are called Comandments.

xristos.anesti

6th July 2007, 04:53 PM

I thank you for your advice, but I still don't agree with you. What Biblical evidence do you have to say that Sabbath and the Old Testament is shadow? God leads us in different paths. Sometimes, he leads us away from our sect of Christianity. Just a question, why did you join the Eastern Orthodox sect?

Well, first of all I you wish evidence that Sabbath is the shadow I will share with you, but I will not nor I wish to argue.

In order to do this we can open an official debate that uses existing rules - or rules that you and me will agree upon. I find no benefit in "general theology" type argument nor I know anyone who does.

It is up to you - send me a pm if you wish to have a formal debate - or whatever you wish - and then we will agree as to what will we do.

As far as the Orthodox Church is concerned - and why I joined it - simply, it is where God has led me and where I have found the faith in Christ, without addition, without deletion, without change - the fullness of what was given once to us for the slavation of souls and right glory to God.

Mankin

6th July 2007, 06:51 PM

I don't feel like debating on it right now but I will tell you when or if I do. Just a question, why do Orthodoxs think they need priests and saints to pray for them.

Eila

6th July 2007, 07:09 PM

No sect or church is perfect. Only God is perfect. Never in the Bible did he say his Ten Commandments were void. When Jesus died, he allowed God and his commandments to be written on our hearts not on stone.

They were not voided, but fulfilled. I agree with how the Amplified version states it in Romans 10 "4For Christ is the end of the Law [the limit at which it ceases to be, for the Law leads up to Him Who is the fulfillment of its types, and in Him the purpose which it was designed to accomplish is fulfilled. That is, the purpose of the Law is fulfilled in Him] as the means of righteousness (right relationship to God) for everyone who trusts in and adheres to and relies on Him."

Mankin, God didn't write the ministry of death on our hearts, but Himself. He lives within us guiding us. 1 Timothy 1 says that the law was not made for the righteous. It was made for those who did not have God living in them guiding them. Galatians 5 talks about living in the Spirit letting the Spirit guide us. Paul says that if we are led the Spirit we are not under the law. If I have Christ living in me guiding me what use do I have for the law? Lifting up the law condemns and causes more sin. Lifting up Christ alone causes a person to act like the righteous person God made them to be.

xristos.anesti

6th July 2007, 07:31 PM

I don't feel like debating on it right now but I will tell you when or if I do.

Not a problem brother, say hi when you do.

Just a question, why do Orthodoxs think they need priests and saints to pray for them.

Brother, you know where our forum is, why don’t you come and ask the questions that might interest you, it is better to receive advice from many than from one, for I am fool and nothing good comes out of me.

Priests have their duty and that is to serve and feed the people in day to day pastoral activities of the Church receiving their rights from Orthodox Episcopes (Bishops) and all who preserved Orthodox faith from the birthday of the Church until now.

Similar to SDA pastors, Orthodox priests are made into service by the custom of laying of the hands – their duties and obligations are not that much different from a pastor of SDA church – they take care of pastoral needs of the flock – obviously there are differences, but that can be a topic of a different thread. Why we ask the priests to pray for us - well same as the Saints and other brothers and sisters, it is good that our friends should pray for us and all world.

Now, it will be known to you that we are encouraged to pray for one another as it is proper and right and it was the Tradition of the Church from the start. Body of Christ breathes through prayer and lives through Communion (Eucharist); so it is proper and right that one shall pray for another.

Contrary to SDA which believes in Soul Sleep, Orthodox Church holds – as was the custom of the Apostles that those departed are not in the state of soul sleep but are rather members of the Church in heaven and we are surrounded by them – thus when we ask for the intercessions of those who came before us, and who surround us in the cloud of witnesses we are really not asking for anything else but for a prayer of a friend.

We do not believe that anyone but God, to Whom glory for ever - is to forgive sins – except when it is sinned against a person for that is when a person have the ability to forgive sins - when it was sinned against the person. Otherwise, it is a Divine prerogative to forgive sins against God and no one's else's as you know. So, when we pray for intercession the formulae is not O’ saint such and such forgive me what I did today, but rather O’ saint such and such pray to God for me; for as I said before for us, they are alive in God for God is not God of the dead but of the living and thus we ask our friends, brothers, sisters that went before us to pray to God for us.

In order to understand this one has to believe that Saints exist and that they are sensitive (that is perceptive) and not dead and forgotten. However, it is hard science for a SDA to understand this as SDA does not hold these views.

God helps and many years.

Pj.

Mankin

6th July 2007, 08:16 PM

We still have to follow the law. The law does not condemn. Adventists do not use the law to condemn people. The law is written on our hearts so we obey it because we want to not because we have to. The law is the standard for behavior. Jesus said the Sabbath was created for man's benefit. It is a day to renew your relationship with God without the distractions of todays modern world.

Eila

6th July 2007, 08:40 PM

We still have to follow the law. The law does not condemn.

What need is there to follow the law if you have the One who made the law guiding you? Are we to follow the letter or the Spirit? 2 Corinthians 3 does say that the 10 commandments are the ministry of death and the ministry of condemnation.

The law is written on our hearts so we obey it because we want to not because we have to. The law is the standard for behavior.

Why would you need to follow the letter of the law when the ministry of the Spirit is more glorious? Many people can follow the 10 commandments without difficulty. As Christians we are held to a higher standard - agape love. It isn't hard to not kill our neighbor - most people in this world don't murder. Jesus taught a higher standard and that is the standard of the new covenant. Not only should we not murder, but we should do good to those who do us wrong.

Jesus said the Sabbath was created for man's benefit. It is a day to renew your relationship with God without the distractions of todays modern world.

If someone wants to set aside a day to spend with God alone that is great. However, that can be done any day. The Sabbath command of the old covenant was a shadow of the rest we have in Jesus. It is listed in the Bible as a feast just like the other celebrations that were shadows of Jesus. Resting in Jesus for our salvation is the completed and fulfilled Sabbath rest. Working to gain salvation or keep salvation is not resting. Many SDAs are actually working instead of resting when they keep the Sabbath because they believe you need to keep the Sabbath to keep your salvation. Resting in Jesus is resting in His complete work. He did it all!

Mankin

6th July 2007, 09:00 PM

Yes, we should strive for love but what you are saying is riduculous. Did Jesus get rid of the Sabbath? No he did not. The Ten Commandments are not some prophecy they are commandments.

Eila

6th July 2007, 09:46 PM

Yes, we should strive for love but what you are saying is riduculous. Did Jesus get rid of the Sabbath? No he did not. The Ten Commandments are not some prophecy they are commandments.

Ceremonial aspects to the law were commands and shadows at the same time. The weekly Sabbath was a weekly ceremony and it was a sign of the old covenant. The whole law was commanded to Israel. The Ten Commandments are more accurately translated as the 10 Words. The 10 Words were the words of the covenant. We are under a new covenant of His blood.

Jesus didn't get rid of the Sabbath - He fulfilled it. It is complete in Him. Jesus said in Matthew 5 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished." Jesus said He came to fulfill the law and that is what He did. The law as a whole either all stands or all falls according to Jesus' statement. Either you believe that all was not accomplished and you keep all 613 commands or you believe that all was accomplished in Jesus.

Mankin

6th July 2007, 10:48 PM

You still provide no Biblical evidence for your claims. Your only evidence is based on your own opinions. Jesus expanded on the commandments. Murder, Jesus said if you are angry with someone that you say you want to kill them then you are subject to judgment. He said anyone that looks on a woman with lust has commited adutltry in his heart. Jesus kept the Sabbath and does being fuffiled make it void? NO! We still keep it because we know that it is God's perfect law. God established the Sabbath at the beginning of time! THIS was before sin entered the world. It was before mankind fell into sin. The Ten Commandments are not prophecies or things needed to be fufilled. The only thing they don't do is condemn us anymore for we know that if we repent and ask God for forgiveness than we are saved. Paul himself said we should not still go on sinning though. What is sin? It literaly means trangression of the law. What is the law? God's Ten Commandments.

Mankin

6th July 2007, 10:50 PM

The laws of sacrificing animals pointed to Christ. The other Levitical laws were God's way of keeping the Israelites healthy. A lot of the laws in Leviticus are just common sense anyway. One law states not to have sexual relationships with your mother.

Mankin

6th July 2007, 11:06 PM

Ugh. I am a bit tired of debating right now. But I might as well go on. The Sabbath was changed to Sunday by Emperor Constantine. It was a way to keep the pagans happy because their holy day was Sunday.

Eila

6th July 2007, 11:09 PM

You still provide no Biblical evidence for your claims. Your only evidence is based on your own opinions.

I would be happy to provide Biblical evidence. What points are you referring to specifically. I have given many Biblical references in this thread so if you could let me know what you are referring to I will address it.

Jesus expanded on the commandments. Murder, Jesus said if you are angry with someone that you say you want to kill them then you are subject to judgment. He said anyone that looks on a woman with lust has commited adutltry in his heart. Jesus kept the Sabbath and does being fuffiled make it void? NO! We still keep it because we know that it is God's perfect law.

Matthew 5 is a great place to read. Jesus describes that nothing will pass away from the law (all 613 commands) until all is accomplished. He then goes on to define commands from the law. Notice the commands are from the 10 commandments as well as the book of the law.

Yes the law was glorious - notice I said was. 2 Corinthians 3 says "9For if there was glory in the ministry of condemnation, the ministry of righteousness must far exceed it in glory. 10Indeed, in this case, what once had glory has come to have no glory at all, because of the glory that surpasses it. 11For if what was being brought to an end came with glory, much more will what is permanent have glory."

The 10 commandments had glory. But compared to the ministry of righteousness they have come to have no glory at all. They came to an end in Jesus.

God established the Sabbath at the beginning of time! THIS was before sin entered the world. It was before mankind fell into sin.
The Sabbath in the garden was not the 10 commandments - it was God resting.

The Ten Commandments are not prophecies or things needed to be fufilled. The only thing they don't do is condemn us anymore for we know that if we repent and ask God for forgiveness than we are saved.

Ceremonial laws were commands and shadows. Leviticus 23 says
"1The LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 2"Speak to the people of Israel and say to them, These are the appointed feasts of the LORD that you shall proclaim as holy convocations; they are my appointed feasts. 3"Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, a holy convocation. You shall do no work. It is a Sabbath to the LORD in all your dwelling places. ..." In that same chapter it lists the Passover, Feast of Firstfruits, Feast of Weeks, Day of Atonement, etc. All of the feasts were shadows of Jesus.

The 10 commandments never stop condemning. They are the ministry of condemnation. The Bible says the law was given to point out sin.

Paul himself said we should not still go on sinning though. What is sin? It literaly means trangression of the law. What is the law? God's Ten Commandments.

I'm not advocating sinning. I'm saying the law has nothing to do with a born-again believer.

Where does the Bible define the law as the 10 commandments? You referenced 1 John 3. If you keep reading that chapter you will see our commands specifically defined.

Eila

6th July 2007, 11:20 PM

Ugh. I am a bit tired of debating right now. But I might as well go on.

We don't need to debate. We can just have a friendly discussion :)

The Sabbath was changed to Sunday by Emperor Constantine. It was a way to keep the pagans happy because their holy day was Sunday.

Early Christians were gathering together on the Lord's Day at the time of the apostles. In writings of the early church you will find many references to the Lord's Day being Sunday.

Here are a few early quotes: (emphasis mine)

" The Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians 8-10 (c. 110 A.D.)
"Do not be deceived by strange doctrines or antiquated myths, since they are worthless. For if we continue to live accordance with Judaism, we admit that we have not received grace. For the most godly prophets lived in accordance with Christ Jesus. This is why they were persecuted, being inspired as they were by His grace in order that those who are disobedient might be fully convinced that there is one God who revealed Himself through Jesus Christ His Son, who is His Word which came forth from silence, who in every respect pleased Him who sent Him. If, then, those who had lived in antiquated practices came to newness of hope, no longer keeping the Sabbath but living in accordance with the Lord's day, on which our life also arose through Him and His death (which some deny), the mystery through which we came to believe, and because of which we patiently endure, in order that we might be found to be disciples of Jesus Christ, our only teacher, how can we possibly live without Him, whom even the prophets, who were His disciples in the Spirit, were expecting as their teacher? Because of this He for whom they rightly waited raised them from the dead when He came. Therefore let us not be unaware of His goodness. For if He were to imitate the way we act, we are lost. Therefore, having become His disciples, let us learn to live in accordance with Christianity. For whoever is called by any other name than this one does not belong to God. Throw out, therefore, the bad leaven, which has become stale and sour, and reach for the new leaven, which is Jesus Christ. Be salted with Him, so that none of you become rotten, for by your odor you will be examined. It is utterly absurd to profess Jesus Christ and to practice Judaism. For Christianity did not believe in Judaism, but Judaism in Christianity, in which "every tongue" believed and "was brought together" to God.""

" Epistle of Barnabas 2:4-6 (c. 130 A.D.)
"For He has made it clear to us through all the prophets that He needs neither sacrifices nor whole burnt offerings nor general offerings, saying on one occasion: 'What is the multitude of your sacrifices to Me?' says the Lord. 'I am full of whole burnt offerings, and I do not want the fat of lambs and blood of bulls and goats, not even if you come to appear before Me. For who demanded these things from your hands? Do not continue to trample My court. If you bring fine flour, it is in vain; incense is detestable to Me; your new moons and sabbaths I cannot stand.' Therefore He has abolished these things, in order that the new law of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is free from the yoke of compulsion, might have its offering, one not made by man."

Epistle of Barnabas 15:8-9 (c. 130 A.D.)
"Finally, He says to them: 'I cannot bear your new moons and sabbaths.' You see what He means: it is not the present sabbaths that are acceptable to Me, but the one that I have made; on that Sabbath, after I have set everything at rest, I will create the beginning of an eighth day, which is the beginning of another world. This is why we spend the eighth day in celebration, the day on which Jesus both arose from the dead and, after appearing again, ascended into heaven." "

Justin Martyr (c. 100-165 A.D.) "
The First Apology of Justin, Chapter 67
"And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things ... But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Savior on the same day rose from the dead."

Mankin

6th July 2007, 11:24 PM

Mankin

6th July 2007, 11:27 PM

Eila

6th July 2007, 11:35 PM

The change of Sabbath to Sunday was beginning then. God declared the seventh day holy after creation. The phrase not under the law, means that even though I cannot perfectly follow the law, I can still be saved by Jesus' blood. That does not mean we should keep on sinning(transgressing the law). What better example of the law in the Ten Commandments. The Ten Commandments were God's standards. He would have said in the Bible if he considered even one of them void.

You also find the apostles meeting on Sunday and John used the term the Lord's day.

My problem with saying that the transgression of the law is transgression the 10 commandments is that the Bible doesn't say that. It says law, not 10 commandments. In 1 John 3 it defines our commands under the new covenant - to believe in Jesus and agape love one another.

I believe 2 Corinthians 3 clearly shows we are no longer under the 10 commandments. It comes right out and says they have been brought to an end. (emphasis mine)

"4Such is the confidence that we have through Christ toward God. 5Not that we are sufficient in ourselves to claim anything as coming from us, but our sufficiency is from God, 6who has made us competent to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
7Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at Moses' face because of its glory, which was being brought to an end, 8will not the ministry of the Spirit have even more glory? 9For if there was glory in the ministry of condemnation, the ministry of righteousness must far exceed it in glory. 10Indeed, in this case, what once had glory has come to have no glory at all, because of the glory that surpasses it. 11For if what was being brought to an end came with glory, much more will what is permanent have glory.

12Since we have such a hope, we are very bold, 13not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face so that the Israelites might not gaze at the outcome of what was being brought to an end. 14But their minds were hardened. For to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away. 15Yes, to this day whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their hearts. 16But when one turns to the Lord, the veil is removed. 17Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit."

Eila

6th July 2007, 11:42 PM

I never said that love and righteouseness was not as important or more important than the Ten Commandments. We still have to keep the commandments to our best ability because it is what God wants us to do. What is sin? Trangression of the law. What is the law? The Ten Commandments and loving our neighbors and God.

1 John 3 is the place that says sin is the transgression of the law. Where do you find the new covenant law defined as the 10 commandments and loving our neighbors and God?

JonMiller

7th July 2007, 04:20 AM

Have you seen the Clear Word Bible? I don't think it is being called a Bible anymore but a devotional paraphrase.

I don't know much about it (although I do have a copy, it was my dad's). Every church I have been to uses either the King James version or the New International Version.

I personally prefer the Revised Standard Version.

JM

JonMiller

7th July 2007, 04:22 AM

I agree that some SDA's act cult like towards EGW. The majority (no longer?) do though.

This has been the case since the 50s at least, when the SDA church made a move towards being evangelical.

Note that there are still groups that are strongly against this (the move towards being evangelical).

JM

JonMiller

7th July 2007, 04:25 AM

I think this is where many former Adventists disagree because there is no Biblical evidence that the 10 commandments were given to anyone but the Jews. In fact the Bible calls the 10 commandments the words of the covenant. Not our covenant, but the old covenant. Our covenant was inaugurated by His blood. Jesus didn't distinguish between the 10 commandments and the rest of the law - it was all the law and He said that not one portion of the law (notice it is not the 10 commandments) would pass away until all was fulfilled. All was fulfilled in Jesus. He fulfilled the old covenant and inaugurated a new covenant. The old covenant was shadows of Jesus - the new covenant is the reality of Jesus and what He has already done.

We are not saved by the law. We are convicted by the law.

Without the law there would be no sin, and no need of a savior. We are saved by grace. That is the new covenant.

This is all from Paul. The law is still needed to convict.

JM

JonMiller

7th July 2007, 04:31 AM

You will have to point out where the NT says that we follow the 10 commandments because we want to. If you don't believe your salvation is dependent on keeping the 10 commandments then what happens to your salvation if you break a commandment?

Nothing. But if we had Christ within us, would we go around breaking His commandments? (there are Historic adventists who would disagree with me, but their position hasn't been the majority position in over 50 years)

2 Corinthians 3 is a good read. Here is a short portion

"4Such is the confidence that we have through Christ toward God. 5Not that we are sufficient in ourselves to claim anything as coming from us, but our sufficiency is from God, 6who has made us competent to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
7Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at Moses' face because of its glory, which was being brought to an end, 8will not the ministry of the Spirit have even more glory? 9For if there was glory in the ministry of condemnation, the ministry of righteousness must far exceed it in glory. 10Indeed, in this case, what once had glory has come to have no glory at all, because of the glory that surpasses it. 11For if what was being brought to an end came with glory, much more will what is permanent have glory."

Exactly, the letter kills and the spirit gives life. Without the letter killing, there woudl be nothing for the spirit to give life to.

We are no longer saved by the law. That was the covenant with Israel." Keep my commandments and I will bless you". The covenant with us is a"ccept my Grace and you will be saved".

There is nothing to be saved from without the law. The law has nothing to do with the covenant, it just condemns.

JM

JonMiller

7th July 2007, 04:34 AM

1 John 3 is the place that says sin is the transgression of the law. Where do you find the new covenant law defined as the 10 commandments and loving our neighbors and God?

Where does the NT talk about a new law? There is never a discussion of a new law, rather there is discussion of a new covenant. A new way to be saved from the law.

JM

JonMiller

7th July 2007, 04:40 AM

They were not voided, but fulfilled. I agree with how the Amplified version states it in Romans 10 "4For Christ is the end of the Law [the limit at which it ceases to be, for the Law leads up to Him Who is the fulfillment of its types, and in Him the purpose which it was designed to accomplish is fulfilled. That is, the purpose of the Law is fulfilled in Him] as the means of righteousness (right relationship to God) for everyone who trusts in and adheres to and relies on Him."

Mankin, God didn't write the ministry of death on our hearts, but Himself. He lives within us guiding us. 1 Timothy 1 says that the law was not made for the righteous. It was made for those who did not have God living in them guiding them. Galatians 5 talks about living in the Spirit letting the Spirit guide us. Paul says that if we are led the Spirit we are not under the law. If I have Christ living in me guiding me what use do I have for the law? Lifting up the law condemns and causes more sin. Lifting up Christ alone causes a person to act like the righteous person God made them to be.

How could the spirit of God be against His law? As the Bible says, a hosue divided against itself can not stand.

Now I would like to say that I tihnk it is perfectly fine for people to not be SDA, and while I think that without a doubt the Sabbath is right day to worship on, worshiping on any other day is good also. I also think that the SDA church has more then it's fair share of hypocrits and legalists... in part because of EGW.

But:
The position on state of the dead is correct.
The position on conditional immortality is correct.
The position on the Sabbath is correct.

To name the three of our positoins that our pretty unique.

JM

Eila

7th July 2007, 04:43 AM

We are not saved by the law. We are convicted by the law.

Without the law there would be no sin, and no need of a savior. We are saved by grace. That is the new covenant.

This is all from Paul. The law is still needed to convict.

JM

I disagree. Sin was in the world before the law was given.

Romans 5 " 12Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned-- 13for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. 14Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come."

Sin is also defined as all unrighteousness, not doing the right thing, and whatever is not of faith. Adam and Eve sinned, yet they did not have the law. The patriarchs sinned, yet they did not have the law.

1 Timothy 1 says the law was not made for the righteous. It was made for the unregenerate man, not for man who has the Spirit living in him.

The law was given to increase sin. It can't increase something that doesn't already exist.

Eila

7th July 2007, 04:47 AM

Nothing.

:thumbsup:

But if we had Christ within us, would we go around breaking His commandments? (there are Historic adventists who would disagree with me, but their position hasn't been the majority position in over 50 years)

If you are talking about the 10 commandments then I disagree. Our commands are not the words of the old covenant.

Exactly, the letter kills and the spirit gives life. Without the letter killing, there woudl be nothing for the spirit to give life to.

I see what you are saying, but disagree. Sin was around before the letter. Sin passed to all mankind because of Adam's sin.

We are no longer saved by the law. That was the covenant with Israel." Keep my commandments and I will bless you". The covenant with us is a"ccept my Grace and you will be saved".

There is nothing to be saved from without the law. The law has nothing to do with the covenant, it just condemns.

JM

I don't think anyone was ever saved by the law. Salvation has always been by grace through faith. Israel was blessed when they followed God's laws, but that was not their salvation.

Eila

7th July 2007, 05:02 AM

Where does the NT talk about a new law? There is never a discussion of a new law, rather there is discussion of a new covenant. A new way to be saved from the law.

JM

Hebrews 7 "11Now if perfection had been attainable through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need would there have been for another priest to arise after the order of Melchizedek, rather than one named after the order of Aaron? 12For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well."

There was a change in the priesthood and a change in the law as well. According to Matthew 5 the old covenant law sits as a whole unit. It is either all in force or all fulfilled. Either you are supposed to wear tassels, not eat unclean meats, keep all the feasts, etc or you are under the law of the new covenant.

The law of the new covenant is defined in 1 John 3 and it does not resemble the law of the old covenant.

The new covenant is a totally new covenant and not an old one re-worked. The old covenant was given on Sinai. On the exact anniversary of the giving of the old covenant on Sinai the new covenant was given at Pentecost. The Spirit came. The Sinai covenant was of the letter. The new covenant is of the Spirit.

The 10 commandments are specially mentioned in the new testament and in reference to the new covenant it says that we are not to live according to the letter, but the Spirit. This is not refering to the essence of the law, but the Spirit of God.

We cannot put new wine into old wineskins - we put new wine into new wineskins.

Eila

7th July 2007, 05:15 AM

How could the spirit of God be against His law? As the Bible says, a hosue divided against itself can not stand.

The Spirit will hold the person to a higher moral standard than "thou shalt not kill". The 10 commandments are the ministry of death. The commandments are the power of sin. The ministry of the Spirit is where God changes us to be more like Him. We no longer want to do the things we used to do. This is not our work, but His work in us. To hold up the ministry of death does diminish the ministry of the Spirit. It causes more sin to abound. 2 Corinthians 3 says that the 10 commandments were glorious. But they have come to have no glory at all because of the ministry of the Spirit. Christ at work in us does far more to change us than anyone trying to keep a law.

Now I would like to say that I tihnk it is perfectly fine for people to not be SDA, and while I think that without a doubt the Sabbath is right day to worship on, worshiping on any other day is good also. I also think that the SDA church has more then it's fair share of hypocrits and legalists... in part because of EGW.

But:
The position on state of the dead is correct.
The position on conditional immortality is correct.
The position on the Sabbath is correct.

To name the three of our positoins that our pretty unique.

JM

I do disagree with all 3 positions :) The Bible says our spirit returns to God when we die. The Bible says our spirit is born again and that we have already passed from death into life. Eternal life is received the moment you are born again. The Sabbath is the right day if you believe you should follow the old covenant law.

JonMiller

7th July 2007, 05:35 AM

The Spirit will hold the person to a higher moral standard than "thou shalt not kill". The 10 commandments are the ministry of death. The commandments are the power of sin.

I Am not sure what you mean by this.

The ministry of the Spirit is where God changes us to be more like Him. We no longer want to do the things we used to do. This is not our work, but His work in us.

I agree. That is what I said.

To hold up the ministry of death does diminish the ministry of the Spirit. It causes more sin to abound. 2 Corinthians 3 says that the 10 commandments were glorious. But they have come to have no glory at all because of the ministry of the Spirit. Christ at work in us does far more to change us than anyone trying to keep a law.

Umm... I think you are misunderstanding me. A person keeps the law because they are saved. They don't keep the law to become saved. If you are changed by God's grace, if you have the spirit of God within you, then you will change.. to become more like Christ, and to keep His commandments.

"If you live me, keep my commandments".

I agree that old school adventists are often legalists, and focus on keeping the law, rather then on the changing power of Christ.

I do disagree with all 3 positions :) The Bible says our spirit returns to God when we die. The Bible says our spirit is born again and that we have already passed from death into life. Eternal life is received the moment you are born again. The Sabbath is the right day if you believe you should follow the old covenant law.

Uh, how does that have anything to do with Conditional Immortality? I don't think you understand what conditional immortality means, or you are choosing to address something that I didn't talk about (And don't agree with), instead of what I did talk about.

You keep hitting on a point (needing to do works, not being saved when you accept Christ's grace, etc), that isn't held by myself or many adventsts, and that the denomination as a whole hasn't held for 50ish years. I know that individuals hvae been, and still are, legalists. That is something that needs fixing, and I ge tinto arguments on the SDA forums here about that.

Also, the Bible says that the dead know nothing. It compares death to a sleep. It refers to spirts as false spirits. Even the people from the OT who appear in the NT were brought up to heaven, not spirits.

So the Sabbath had something to do with the old covenant, as you use to be saved by keeping it. Now, you will desire to keep it, if God has shown it to you (and I Think many Christians He hasn't, and so they desire to keep another day, like sunday, instead). However, it was also indepdent of the old coevenant, as it was part of the law... which is a seperate thing then the covenant.

If there is no law there is no sin. If there is no sin, there is no need for a Savior. If there is no need for a Savior, then there can be no Grace. We don't become saved by the law, we are condemned by it. Because we cannot (in our sinful state) succeed with respect to it, it is death to us. But it is God's nature, and so when we take Christ into our hearts, we will reflect His nature to our surroundings.

I think that some adventists legalists created a misunderstadning of the law in your mind, and when you recognized that, you rejected everything to do with the law, although the idea you are expressing is the same. ("The ministry of the Spirit is where God changes us to be more like Him.") It is just that the law has become so tainted to you, that you can't call it by it's right name.

JM

JonMiller

7th July 2007, 05:43 AM

I disagree. Sin was in the world before the law was given.

Romans 5 " 12Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned-- 13for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. 14Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come."

Sin is also defined as all unrighteousness, not doing the right thing, and whatever is not of faith. Adam and Eve sinned, yet they did not have the law. The patriarchs sinned, yet they did not have the law.

1 Timothy 1 says the law was not made for the righteous. It was made for the unregenerate man, not for man who has the Spirit living in him.

The law was given to increase sin. It can't increase something that doesn't already exist.

Sin came into the world because Adam and Eve (in the myth in Genesis) disobeyed God's law.. not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Law is "any rule or injunction that must be obeyed" (from dictionary.com). The law given at Mt. Sinai was an expression... but I don't think that man how he is now can fully comprehend the law of God, and I doubt if it is fully written down in any location. God's law still exists, it is inherent to His nature. And He is unchangings. If it didn't exist, then there would be no more sin. But I have repeated this point over and over again, and it is clearest said by Paul, so if you want to read it again, you may there.

Incidently, it is also in the myth of genesis that we see the Sabbath for the first time, as God took a rest after His creation, and honored that day (made it holy).

By the way, in refering to the myth I am not making a judgement to whether that was the way things happened or not. I think that, since the Bible is the word of God, that even if it isn't the way it happened, it is still symbolically true. This is so that in this forum, with people of amny different beleifs, we don't get into an argument about the validity of genesis, which would be a sidetrack.

JM

JonMiller

7th July 2007, 05:46 AM

:thumbsup:

I don't think anyone was ever saved by the law. Salvation has always been by grace through faith. Israel was blessed when they followed God's laws, but that was not their salvation.

Yes, they were still saved by Jesus Christ. They couldn't be perfect then either. They were saved by following the laws laid forth by Moses detailing hte sacrifices/etc.

We are not saved in this fashion. We are saved by accepting Christ's gift of Grace directly.

JM

JonMiller

7th July 2007, 05:50 AM

If you are talking about the 10 commandments then I disagree. Our commands are not the words of the old covenant.

I see what you are saying, but disagree. Sin was around before the letter. Sin passed to all mankind because of Adam's sin.

I am not talking about commands, I am talking about God's nature. His nature was expressed in the 10 commandments... (not saying that that was a complete expression) They had nothing to do with the covenant. The covenant was about the blessing from keeping the law, and the symbolic sacrifices which pointed to Chirst.

Sin was around from Adam. That was breaking the letter of God's law ("Don't eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil").

JM

JonMiller

7th July 2007, 05:55 AM

Mankin

7th July 2007, 12:50 PM

Mankin

7th July 2007, 12:51 PM

And destite what you may interpret, the Bible does not say that your spirit goes back to God. It says your breath of life goes back to God. The breath of life is an unconscious thing.

Eila

7th July 2007, 02:06 PM

I Am not sure what you mean by this.

The Spirit will hold the born-again person with the Spirit living in them to a higher standard than "thou shalt not". Jesus explained this in Matthew 5. For instance,
" 38"You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' 39But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if anyone would sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42Give to the one who begs from you, and do not refuse the one who would borrow from you."

Umm... I think you are misunderstanding me. A person keeps the law because they are saved. They don't keep the law to become saved. If you are changed by God's grace, if you have the spirit of God within you, then you will change.. to become more like Christ, and to keep His commandments.

No one keeps the law because they are saved. Do you know anyone who keeps all 613 commands?

Yes, those who are born again and have the Spirit in the will change. Not by keeping the law. The fruit of the Spirit within is not law keeping but love, joy, peace, etc.

"If you live me, keep my commandments".

And what were the commands Jesus is referring to in JOhn 14/15?

"10If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love. 11These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full.
12"This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. 13Greater love has no one than this, that someone lays down his life for his friends. 14You are my friends if you do what I command you. 15No longer do I call you servants, for the servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you. 16You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you. 17These things I command you, so that you will love one another."

This command is the same command found in 1 John 3.

Uh, how does that have anything to do with Conditional Immortality? I don't think you understand what conditional immortality means, or you are choosing to address something that I didn't talk about (And don't agree with), instead of what I did talk about.

Sorry for the confusion. The Bible says we have eternal life now. If we die and cease to be then how do we have eternal life?

Also, the Bible says that the dead know nothing. It compares death to a sleep. It refers to spirts as false spirits. Even the people from the OT who appear in the NT were brought up to heaven, not spirits.

Yes, I do believe the dead know nothing - nothing more of life on earth. The context of Ecclesiates is "under the sun". Our bodies do sleep in death. It never says our spirit sleeps in death.

Yes, there are some false or evil spirits. But we are spirit beings created in the image of God. The Bible says that His Spirit testifies with our spirit. The same Greek word is used for Spirit as spirit.

So the Sabbath had something to do with the old covenant, as you use to be saved by keeping it. Now, you will desire to keep it, if God has shown it to you (and I Think many Christians He hasn't, and so they desire to keep another day, like sunday, instead). However, it was also indepdent of the old coevenant, as it was part of the law... which is a seperate thing then the covenant.

How can you separate the words of the covenant from the covenant?

Exodus 34:28 "Moses was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights without eating bread or drinking water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant—the Ten Commandments."

Deut 4:13 " He declared to you his covenant, the Ten Commandments, which he commanded you to follow and then wrote them on two stone tablets.

If there is no law there is no sin. If there is no sin, there is no need for a Savior. If there is no need for a Savior, then there can be no Grace. We don't become saved by the law, we are condemned by it. Because we cannot (in our sinful state) succeed with respect to it, it is death to us. But it is God's nature, and so when we take Christ into our hearts, we will reflect His nature to our surroundings.

Sin was around before the law. Sin nature passed to all people because of Adam's sin.

I think that some adventists legalists created a misunderstadning of the law in your mind, and when you recognized that, you rejected everything to do with the law, although the idea you are expressing is the same. ("The ministry of the Spirit is where God changes us to be more like Him.") It is just that the law has become so tainted to you, that you can't call it by it's right name.

JM

Adventist legalists had nothing to do with my position. My position changed because of what I read in the Bible. The law is useful when used lawfully. It was not intended for anyone who has the Spirit. If you put new wine into old wineskins they will burst.

Eila

7th July 2007, 02:13 PM

Sin came into the world because Adam and Eve (in the myth in Genesis) disobeyed God's law.. not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Law is "any rule or injunction that must be obeyed" (from dictionary.com). The law given at Mt. Sinai was an expression... but I don't think that man how he is now can fully comprehend the law of God, and I doubt if it is fully written down in any location. God's law still exists, it is inherent to His nature. And He is unchangings. If it didn't exist, then there would be no more sin. But I have repeated this point over and over again, and it is clearest said by Paul, so if you want to read it again, you may there.

Sin is more than simply a transgression of a law. Paul is the one who said that sin was in the world before the law was given. The law given to Israel was more than the 10 commandments. In Matthew 5 Jesus said not one portion of the law would pass away until all was fulfilled. God doesn't change, but He does stand by His word. If He commanded people to wear tassels and you believe all commands are unchanging you should still be wearing tassels.

Incidently, it is also in the myth of genesis that we see the Sabbath for the first time, as God took a rest after His creation, and honored that day (made it holy).

Thank you for letting me know your position. However, if you believe it is a myth how do you know the Sabbath in creation isn't a myth?

Eila

7th July 2007, 02:16 PM

Yes, they were still saved by Jesus Christ. They couldn't be perfect then either. They were saved by following the laws laid forth by Moses detailing hte sacrifices/etc.

We are not saved in this fashion. We are saved by accepting Christ's gift of Grace directly.

JM

I don't believe anyone in the old covenant was saved by their works. They were in a covenant of works, but no amount of works (past or present) can save anyone. Look at Hebrews 11 - the OT saints received righteousness by faith.

Eila

7th July 2007, 02:22 PM

I am not talking about commands, I am talking about God's nature. His nature was expressed in the 10 commandments... (not saying that that was a complete expression) They had nothing to do with the covenant. The covenant was about the blessing from keeping the law, and the symbolic sacrifices which pointed to Chirst.

Sin was around from Adam. That was breaking the letter of God's law ("Don't eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil").

JM

According to the Bible the 10 commandments were the actual words of the covenant. You cannot separate the covenant from the 10 commandments.

1 Kings 8:21 says "21And there I have provided a place for the ark, in which is the covenant of the LORD that he made with our fathers, when he brought them out of the land of Egypt."

Hebrews 9:4 says "4having the golden altar of incense and the ark of the covenant covered on all sides with gold, in which was a golden urn holding the manna, and Aaron's staff that budded, and the tablets of the covenant."

The 10 commandments are continually called the covenant or words of the covenant.

Where does it say that Adam and Eve received a written law?

Mankin

7th July 2007, 02:27 PM

Just because they did not receive a written law does not mean that the law did not exist at that time. God called the Ten Commandments a lasting forevor covenant. Forever mean forever. You cannot argue with facts.

Eila

7th July 2007, 02:28 PM

See my other posts showing that Adam and Eve, and all other's, have had the law. Either written in stone (10 commandments), or given verbally ("don't eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil"), or displayed in nature (I am not remembering Paul's wording at the time, I am up 6 horus later then I desired).

How does "don't eat the fruit" equal the old covenant law? Paul in Galatians 3 says that law did not come until 430 years after Abraham.

"16Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, "And to offsprings," referring to many, but referring to one, "And to your offspring," who is Christ. 17This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. 18For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise."

If you aren't convicted of sin, why do you need a savior? Why would you need to even concern yourself with Him? He would be completely superfulous. A savior saves you from something. If there is nothing to be saved from, then there is no such thing as a savior.

JM

Sin passes to all people - not because of how they live but because of Adam's sin. All people are born with a sin nature.

Christians do not need the law to convict of sin. This is the job of the Holy Spirit.

John 16 "7Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you. 8And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment: 9concerning sin, because they do not believe in me;"

Mankin

7th July 2007, 02:29 PM

You can not prove that the Ten Commandments were fufullied because it was a forever covenant and it was not a prophecy like the sacrifices in the Old Testament were. There is a new covenant but it does not abolish the Ten Commandments. You cannot prove anything because you do not have scripture evidence and Paul is very clear that we should not keep on sinning.

Mankin

7th July 2007, 02:33 PM

Don't argue with facts. Sin is transgression of the law. Adam and Eve broke God's law not to eat from the tree. What higher standard do you say the Spirit calls us to do? To love one another? Well Jesus told us to do that but he did not say that the Ten Commandments mean nothing now. If they do mean something, than the Sabbath means something. Paul kept the Sabbath, the apostles kept the Sabbath. Jesus kept the Sabbath. Why would they keep it if they knew it was void. You are using vague verses to support your position. All you use is new and old covenants when it is clear in the Bible that we keep the Commandments now because we love Jesus not because we think it will save us.

Eila

7th July 2007, 02:35 PM

Like mjora said, if you love Christ, then why do you go around and break his commands. Christ gave his life for us. Shouldn't we respect him enough for that by keeping his commands and spreading his message. All Ten Commandments are for our own moral benefit. David devoted the longest chapter in the Bible to how he loved God's perfect law. Breaking a commandment won't effect our salvation because we can ask Jesus to forgive us. No other law in the Bible is called a command. Under your philosophy Ellia, everyone would still be sinning without repenting. We do need to strive for more than just what the Ten Commandments say.

Where did I say I go around sinning? The 10 commandments were glorious, but they have come to have no glory at all because of the glory that excels - the ministry of the Spirit.

Breaking a command does affect your salvation if you need to repent to stay saved.

Are you saying that every use of the word "command" means the 10 commandments? What about Exodus 23 "15You shall keep the Feast of Unleavened Bread. As I commanded you, you shall eat unleavened bread for seven days at the appointed time in the month of Abib, for in it you came out of Egypt. None shall appear before me empty-handed."

What makes you think that the Spirit will lead people to sin?

Mankin

7th July 2007, 02:35 PM

If you love me keep my commandments. The Ten Commandments are called commandments. No other laws in the Bible are called this. No other verses are so clear. The Ten Commandments are perfect. You must strive beyond them yes, but that does not make them void or part of the old covenant like you insist. The law required a sacrifice, Jesus fufilled that sacrifice. The law is still important, but if we sin we can ask for repentence and be saved.

Mankin

7th July 2007, 02:36 PM

The Spirit is our conscious. It makes us feel guilty when we know we have done something wrong and it guides us towards God's work.

Mankin

7th July 2007, 02:38 PM

The ministry of the Spirit still holds to the Ten Commandments. We have to be sorry for our sins in order to be forgiven. We have to ask God to forgive us. We can't just go on sinning (transgressing the law or just plain old sinning) without being sorry for it. Paul himself said that.

Mankin

7th July 2007, 02:40 PM

God is also a God of justice as well as love. The Ten Commandments are lasting, Leviticus passes away. True we have to strive for more than just the commandments, like preaching to people and loving people, but we can't go on sinning.

Mankin

7th July 2007, 02:41 PM

Jesus would have told us if he was going to get rid of the Sabbath. No matter how much you try, you cannot argue with simple facts.

Eila

7th July 2007, 02:43 PM

And destite what you may interpret, the Bible does not say that your spirit goes back to God. It says your breath of life goes back to God. The breath of life is an unconscious thing.

It uses the Hebrew word ruwach which is often interpeted as spirit. The Hebrew word ruwach is defined by Strongs as:

07307 ruwach {roo'-akh}
from 07306; TWOT - 2131a; n f
AV - Spirit or spirit 232, wind 92, breath 27, side 6, mind 5, blast 4,
vain 2, air 1, anger 1, cool 1, courage 1, misc 6; 378
1) wind, breath, mind, spirit
1a) breath
1b) wind
1b1) of heaven
1b2) quarter (of wind), side
1b3) breath of air
1b4) air, gas
1b5) vain, empty thing
1c) spirit (as that which breathes quickly in animation or agitation)
1c1) spirit, animation, vivacity, vigour
1c2) courage
1c3) temper, anger
1c4) impatience, patience
1c5) spirit, disposition (as troubled, bitter, discontented)
1c6) disposition (of various kinds), unaccountable or uncontrollable
impulse
1c7) prophetic spirit
1d) spirit (of the living, breathing being in man and animals)
1d1) as gift, preserved by God, God's spirit, departing at
death, disembodied being
1e) spirit (as seat of emotion)
1e1) desire
1e2) sorrow, trouble
1f) spirit
1f1) as seat or organ of mental acts
1f2) rarely of the will
1f3) as seat especially of moral character
1g) Spirit of God, the third person of the triune God, the Holy Spirit,
coequal, coeternal with the Father and the Son
1g1) as inspiring ecstatic state of prophecy
1g2) as impelling prophet to utter instruction or warning
1g3) imparting warlike energy and executive and administrative power
1g4) as endowing men with various gifts
1g5) as energy of life
1g6) as manifest in the Shekinah glory
1g7) never referred to as a depersonalised force

Breath and spirit are sometimes used interchangably. Jesus breathed on the disciples so they would receive the Holy Spirit.

His breath doesn't testify with our breath. His Spirit testifies with our spirit. Do you consider the Holy Spirit to be an unconscious thing?