Searching for a Church

[lily00]

HI! I just moved from HOuston, and I am trying to find a church in Austin that can say yes to all of these questions. It is the criteria I use to find a church but mostly it is number 7 that I can't get a yes on. I did a lot of research on it to conclude that tithing is from the law and is no longer for Christians today. Anyway, if you know a church that does teach absolutely from the Truth of God's Word, please let me know so I can go!
1.Do you believe that the Bible is the only inspired Word of God, and that it is without error in its entirety (2 Tim. 3:16; 2 Pet. 1:20, 21; Psa. 119:160; Jn. 17:17; Rev. 22:18, 19; Jude 1:3)?

2.Do you believe that Jesus Christ always was from eternity past, is, and always will be God (Jn. 1:1, 2, 14; 8:58; Micah 5:2; Rev. 22:13, 16; 1:8)?

3.Do you believe that a person is saved (becomes a Christian) and will therefore go to heaven simply by believing that Jesus Christ, God’s Son, died (and thereby paid the complete penalty) for all of the believing person’s sins, so that he is completely forgiven and declared perfect in the eyes of God (Eph. 2:8, 9; 1 Cor. 15:1-4; 1 Pet. 3:18; 1:3-5; Col. 2:13, 14; Acts 13:38, 39)?

4.Do you believe that once a person is saved (becomes a Christian) he cannot lose his salvation nor forfeit going to heaven under any circumstances (Eph. 1:13, 14; 4:30; 2:8, 9; Rom. 11:28, 29; Heb. 10:10; Gal. 3:1-3; 1 Jn. 5:11-13; Jn. 6:47)?

5.Do you believe that the following gifts of the Holy Spirit ended before the year AD 95 and are no longer for Christians for today: speaking in tongues, the ability to heal anybody or everybody at will, direct personal revelations/prophecies from God, and the ability to perform miracles?

[1 Cor. 14:21, 22; Isa. 28:1, 11, 13, 14 – this sign of impending judgment for unbelieving Jews was fulfilled in AD 70 with the destruction of Jerusalem by the Roman army (On page 616 of J.D. Douglas’ book The New Bible Dictionary, it states, “In AD 70 the Roman general Titus systematically forced his way into Jerusalem, and destroyed the fortifications and the Temple.” On page 578 of Merrill Unger’s book Unger’s Bible Dictionary, it states, “In 70 AD the Romans destroyed the city (Jerusalem) and massacred its inhabitants.”); 1 Cor. 13:8-10 – this partial knowledge and prophesying was done away with when the perfect/perfection or completion of the Bible came about in AD 95. There is no more special knowledge or prophecies coming directly from God, as revelations from God are no longer needed, Rev. 22:18, 19 – since the completion of the New Testament by AD 95, God no longer needed to authenticate His spokesmen with miraculous powers (2 Cor. 12:12; Acts 14:3; Heb. 2:3, 4) in order to show that they were speaking His word.].

6.Do you believe that all Christians should be evangelizing (sharing the gospel with) unbelievers and building up and equipping (teaching, training, and trait-building Christian character in) believers if these Christians have the capability and opportunity to do so (Matt. 28:19, 20; Acts 10:42, 43; 13:46, 47; 1 Pet. 2:9; Phil. 1:7, 12, 13, 21; 4:9; Rom. 14:19; 1 Thes. 5:11; Eph. 4:11-13)?

7.Do you believe that it is not essential for a Christian to tithe (give 10% of his income) to a church in order to be a good, obedient Christian (2 Cor. 9:7; Rom. 10:4; 6:14, 15; 7:6)?

8.Do you believe that it is not essential to go to a building called “a church” on Sundays in order to be a good, obedient Christian (Col. 2:16, 17; 4:15; Rom. 14:4, 5; 16:5; 1 Cor. 16:19; Philemon 1:2)?

[Stormy]

Isn't this how the denominations started? Everyone wanting to set there own rules? Why is it so important to you to have them believe exactly as you do? Just go, be with others and know..Mat 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

[lily00]

I am not looking at rules, I am looking at truth. It is like sending your child to a school that teaches that the world is square, and that the grass is blue, and that air isn't needed to breathe. How much more important is going to a church that teaches the truth? I agree that I am not part of a "religion," but part of the body of Christ and that it is as you say in Matthew 18:20, though it it is talking of a specific meeting where the church seeks the reconciliation of two Christians separated by some sin. But more importantly I am a child of God who will follow God before the majority of Christians that are blinded by false doctrine. I cannot subject myself to that. Am I forsaking the assembly of the church? No, not at all, but I have not found one that is like-minded in these areas of my personal beliefs (except for my church in HOuston) taken from the heart of God's Word and I strongly desire that.

[mdaniel]

I did a lot of research on it to conclude that tithing is from the law and is no longer for Christians today.

I agree. If you are going to let a minor issue like tithing prevent you from attending a church then you'll never find a church you like.. You have to take the wheat and leave the chaff.

Ideally you want a church that speaks well of Jesus and his word, and often.

[JolieHeart]

*Drops her two cents into the tip jar...*

Tithing and offerings are between you, the giver, and God. We all agree that he loves a cheerful giver. As long as a person gives from the heart, I personally cannot see God holding that against anyone.
If you don't tell the church what your income is, then how can the church judge your tithe amount?

I am interested in the research you mentioned lily00, about tithing not being applicable to Christians today. Will you please share your info?

*Runs to find the Scriptures that tell of tithing a third, not a tenth, during those special years...*

[lily00]

Here is a small summary Jolie, I hope this helps.

Those who teach that Christians should tithe usually base their opinion on such passages as Lev. 27:30-33; Num. 18:21-24; Deut. 11:31, 32; 12:5, 8-11; 14:22-26; and Mal. 3:8-10.
But as you read these passages, you find some interesting facts that aren’t often mentioned by those who teach tithing. For example, in the Lev. 27:31-34 passage, verse 34 states, “These are the commands the Lord gave Moses on Mount Sinai for the Israelites.” So, who was the command to tithe given? Was it to Christians or to the Israelites? It says that it was to the Israelites (physical descendants of Abraham). Christians (believers in the Lord Jesus Christ) and Israelites are 2 different categories of people (Rom. 11; 9:30-32).
In the Num. 18:21-24 passage, verse 21 says, “I give to the Levites all the tithes in Israel as their inheritance in return for the work they do while serving at the Tent of Meeting.“ To whom were the tithes to go? Was it to the Levites (vss. 21, 24) or to Christian ministers/pastors/elders? It says that it was to the Levites (descendants of the tribe of Levi who were set apart for the service of the tent of meeting/tabernacle/sanctuary and subordinate to the priests, Aaron’s descendants – Num. 1:53; 3:1-9; 18:21-31). Levites and Christian ministers/elders/overseers are 2 different categories of people (Heb. 7:11-28; 1 Tim. 3:2-7; Titus 1:5-9) as are the tent of meeting and churches 2 different things (Ex. 25-27, 30; Rom. 16:5; 1 Cor. 16:19; Col. 4:15).
In the Deut. 11:31, 32; 12:5, 8-11; 14:22-26 passages, God tells the Israelites to bring their tithes to the place He would choose in Israel from among all their tribes to put His name there for His dwelling (vss. 5, 6, 10, 11). So, where were the Israelites to bring their tithes? Was it to the one place in Israel where the tabernacle (later the temple) stood, or was it to every church building in which Christians would meet? It says that it was “the (one) place God will choose from among all your (Israel’s) tribes to put His name” (vs. 5), and not as/where anyone/everyone sees fit (vs. 8). The tabernacle (Ex. 25-27, 30), later the temple in Jerusalem (1 Kings 3:1; 6; 8) is different from churches (1 Cor. 1:2; 16:19; Gal. 1:2; Col. 4:15; 1 Thes. 1:1). The Israelites brought their tithes to the one place of Jerusalem’s temple (2 Chron. 31:5,10; Neh. 12:43, 44; Mal. 3:8-10). Also, 10% (tithe) of the Israelites’ produce was to be brought by the family and eaten together once a year (Deut. 14:22, 23, 26). Are Christian churches who teach tithing doing this? Or, do they pick and choose what they want to teach and obey out of the Old Testament that which was written for the Israelites?
In Deut. 14:28, 29 it says, “At the end of every 3 years, bring all the tithes of that year’s produce and store it in your towns, so that the Levites and the aliens, the fatherless and widows who live in your towns may come and eat and be satisfied…” Deut. 26:12-15 basically states the same thing for the Israelites to do. Again, it’s the Israelites who are to do this in the land of Israel as the context shows. This once every 3-year-tithe is to be given to the local needy people where the Israelite lived. It’s interesting to note that the churches or Christians who teach that we Christians should tithe to our churches, never tell us to tithe once every 3 years to the needy people around us. How come? Is it because the churches or pastors are not the benefactors of this tithe?
In Mal. 3:8-10, God tells the Israelites (descendants of Jacob – vs. 6) to not rob Him by withholding their “tithes and offerings”. God goes on to tell these Israelites, “Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, so that there may be food in My house.” Again, this command is to the Israelites, not Christians. And they are to bring the tithes to God’s storehouse/house (another name for the temple – 1 Kings 3:1; 6:1, 2; 8:6), not to the churches.
Tithing was a requirement for the Israelites under the Law of Moses/law (Lev. 26:46 with 27:30-34; Deut. 26:12 - 27:3 with 4:44, 45; 1 Kings 2:3).
But Christians (believers in the Lord Jesus Christ) are not Israelites and are not under the law/Law – Rom. 10:4; 6:14, 15; 7:4-6; Gal. 3:24, 25; 4:21-31; 5:18; 1 Cor. 9:20.
No instruction in Acts or in the Epistles suggests that tithing is to be practiced by Christians. Christians are to give to the needy (Rom. 12:13) and to their spiritual teachers (Gal. 6:6). Christians are to give as they desire in their heart (2 Cor. 9:7), and as a balanced response to the needy (2 Cor. 8:12-15). But no percentages are mandated.


Here is the real question I guess I would like to present to all of you'll. Is it compromise to go to a church that teaches differently to what you believe? And if it is compromise dealing with God, then wouldn't that be wrong? :( It would be great to go. I am feeling kind of alone here in Leander with hardly anyone my age, but I must put God first in all that I do. I love God too much to put Him before someone else.

~ thanks to the Holy Bible, my pastor (this summary), and other resources...

[AllTalkNoAction]

I am not looking at rules, I am looking at truth. Are you open to scriptural correction on points 3, 4 & 5 ?

[lily00]

Are you open to scriptural correction on points 3, 4 & 5 ?
Yes sir.

[Amisk]

HI! I just moved from Houston, and I am trying to find a church in Austin that can say yes to all of these questions. It is the criteria I use to find a church but mostly it is number 7 that I can't get a yes on. I did a lot of research on it to conclude that tithing is from the law and is no longer for Christians today. Anyway, if you know a church that does teach absolutely from the Truth of God's Word, please let me know so I can go!
1.Do you believe that the Bible is the only inspired Word of God, and that it is without error in its entirety (2 Tim. 3:16; 2 Pet. 1:20, 21; Psa. 119:160; Jn. 17:17; Rev. 22:18, 19; Jude 1:3)?

2.Do you believe that Jesus Christ always was from eternity past, is, and always will be God (Jn. 1:1, 2, 14; 8:58; Micah 5:2; Rev. 22:13, 16; 1:8)?

3.Do you believe that a person is saved (becomes a Christian) and will therefore go to heaven simply by believing that Jesus Christ, God’s Son, died (and thereby paid the complete penalty) for all of the believing person’s sins, so that he is completely forgiven and declared perfect in the eyes of God (Eph. 2:8, 9; 1 Cor. 15:1-4; 1 Pet. 3:18; 1:3-5; Col. 2:13, 14; Acts 13:38, 39)?

4.Do you believe that once a person is saved (becomes a Christian) he cannot lose his salvation nor forfeit going to heaven under any circumstances (Eph. 1:13, 14; 4:30; 2:8, 9; Rom. 11:28, 29; Heb. 10:10; Gal. 3:1-3; 1 Jn. 5:11-13; Jn. 6:47)?

5.Do you believe that the following gifts of the Holy Spirit ended before the year AD 95 and are no longer for Christians for today: speaking in tongues, the ability to heal anybody or everybody at will, direct personal revelations/prophecies from God, and the ability to perform miracles?

[1 Cor. 14:21, 22; Isa. 28:1, 11, 13, 14 – this sign of impending judgment for unbelieving Jews was fulfilled in AD 70 with the destruction of Jerusalem by the Roman army (On page 616 of J.D. Douglas’ book The New Bible Dictionary, it states, “In AD 70 the Roman general Titus systematically forced his way into Jerusalem, and destroyed the fortifications and the Temple.” On page 578 of Merrill Unger’s book Unger’s Bible Dictionary, it states, “In 70 AD the Romans destroyed the city (Jerusalem) and massacred its inhabitants.”); 1 Cor. 13:8-10 – this partial knowledge and prophesying was done away with when the perfect/perfection or completion of the Bible came about in AD 95. There is no more special knowledge or prophecies coming directly from God, as revelations from God are no longer needed, Rev. 22:18, 19 – since the completion of the New Testament by AD 95, God no longer needed to authenticate His spokesmen with miraculous powers (2 Cor. 12:12; Acts 14:3; Heb. 2:3, 4) in order to show that they were speaking His word.].

6.Do you believe that all Christians should be evangelizing (sharing the gospel with) unbelievers and building up and equipping (teaching, training, and trait-building Christian character in) believers if these Christians have the capability and opportunity to do so (Matt. 28:19, 20; Acts 10:42, 43; 13:46, 47; 1 Pet. 2:9; Phil. 1:7, 12, 13, 21; 4:9; Rom. 14:19; 1 Thes. 5:11; Eph. 4:11-13)?

7.Do you believe that it is not essential for a Christian to tithe (give 10% of his income) to a church in order to be a good, obedient Christian (2 Cor. 9:7; Rom. 10:4; 6:14, 15; 7:6)?

8.Do you believe that it is not essential to go to a building called “a church” on Sundays in order to be a good, obedient Christian (Col. 2:16, 17; 4:15; Rom. 14:4, 5; 16:5; 1 Cor. 16:19; Philemon 1:2)?



I need to ask a few questions to get an understanding of where you are coming from.

This church that you attended in Houston, did it have a church building?

Was the pastor paid a salary?

What church denomination was it associated with?

It sounds much like a group here in Canada who refer to themselves as "The Friends" (by the way they are not Quakers".) They meet only in homes. They teach no tithing and some of the rest of the things you are asking about?

Just wondering.

[AllTalkNoAction]

3.Do you believe that a person is saved (becomes a Christian) and will therefore go to heaven simply by believing that Jesus Christ, God’s Son, died (and thereby paid the complete penalty) for all of the believing person’s sins, so that he is completely forgiven and declared perfect in the eyes of God (Eph. 2:8, 9; 1 Cor. 15:1-4; 1 Pet. 3:18; 1:3-5; Col. 2:13, 14; Acts 13:38, 39)?
Many people who call Jesus Lord will be told "I never knew you", these are not atheists, they are poeple that believe the above.

Believing on Jesus means receiving the Life, not just believing in the death.

Eph.2:8-9 talks about grace, just because you are not under law does not mean you have received that grace !

Grace is what Jesus was full of - the nature & works of God. We receive that grace by receiving the Holy Spirit ("the Spirit of grace and of supplications" - Zech.12:10). Until then you are still "in the flesh", even though you may believe in Jesus as best you can understand him.

The Spirit was not given until after Jesus had returned to the Father, so the disciples didn't enter into New Testament salvation until Pentecost (Acts 2:4, 33, Titus 3:5-6). Then Acts shows them meeting various people who already believed in Jesus as best they could understand, but were known not to have received the Spirit yet - Acts 8:12-16; 10:36-39, 44-46; 19:1-6.
And it was known precisely when people did receive the Spirit - but the sign of speaking (praying) in tongues.
There is only one gospel, one way of salvation, so it must be the same today.
Until you receive the same you are still "in the flesh" / "in sin", "unwashed", "unregenerate".


4.Do you believe that once a person is saved (becomes a Christian) he cannot lose his salvation nor forfeit going to heaven under any circumstances (Eph. 1:13, 14; 4:30; 2:8, 9; Rom. 11:28, 29; Heb. 10:10; Gal. 3:1-3; 1 Jn. 5:11-13; Jn. 6:47)?
Paul, writing to the Christians at Rome says:-
Ro:11:22: Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

The bible also speaks of "a falling away" - to fall away, one must first come to The Lord.
And the Old Testament is cited as example and warning of how many that were delivered from Egypt didn't enter the prtomised land, because of unbelief.

OSAS was the first heresy because it is effectively saying "the resurrection is passed already".


5.Do you believe that the following gifts of the Holy Spirit ended before the year AD 95 and are no longer for Christians for today: speaking in tongues, the ability to heal anybody or everybody at will, direct personal revelations/prophecies from God, and the ability to perform miracles?
No, Jesus Christ has not changed. He is still healing the sick physically, and now greater works, spiritual blindness, deadness etc is being healed through having His Spirit indwelling.

John 14:12: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.



[1 Cor. 14:21, 22; Isa. 28:1, 11, 13, 14 – this sign of impending judgment for unbelieving Jews was fulfilled in AD 70 with the destruction of Jerusalem by the Roman army but Isaiah 28:11-12 actually prophesies of tongues:-
"This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing:"

NOT that it is a destructive foreign army !

Matt.11:28 & Acts 3:19 also speak of rest and refreshing coming from Jesus, the baptiser in the Holy Spirit. And Paul identifies the prophecy as of speaking in tongues which edifies the speaker - draws on God's love which means we can rest and be refreshed.



1 Cor. 13:8-10 – this partial knowledge and prophesying was done away with when the perfect/perfection or completion of the Bible came about in AD 95.
No, that passage (v12) speaks of 2 time periods, "now" and "then".

"Then" Christians shall see face to face and know even as they are known - that time has yet to come (when Jesus, the perfect one) comes, so we are still in "now" where tongues, prophecy and the other gifts remain for God to communicate with his people personally.

It is true that the New Covenant will not change but under that Covenant God is still showing that he knows about our collective and individual circumstances here in the 21st Century. These revelations and prophecies don't add to doctrine, but they make the intimacy of God as real to us today as it ever was with the disciples.

[JolieHeart]

Lily00 thank you very much for the informative summary. It is certainly thorough.

I came across this:
The New Testament nowhere commands, or even recommends that Christians submit to a legalistic tithe system. Paul states that believers should set aside a portion of their income in order to support the church (1 Corinthians 16:1-2).
(key word: LEGALISTIC tithe system)

The New Testament nowhere assigns a certain percentage of income to set aside, but only says it is to be “in keeping with his income” (1 Corinthians 16:2). The Christian church has essentially taken the 10% figure from the Old Testament tithe and applied it as a “recommended minimum” for Christians in their giving. Although the New Testament does not identify a specific amount or percentage to give, it does talk about the importance and benefits of giving. They should give as they are able, “in keeping with his income.” Sometimes that means giving more than a tithe, sometime that may mean giving less than a tithe. It all depends on the ability of the Christian and the needs of the church. Each and every Christian should diligently pray and seek God’s wisdom as to whether to participate in tithing and/or for how much he or she should give (James 1:5). “Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver” (2 Corinthians 9:7).

I am not trying to be argumentative by pointing out the following.
A. Nowhere does the Bible say to stop tithing or giving to one's church/temple. The NT states one should give in keeping with one's income.
B. Other laws were given to Moses and the Israelites, such as the Ten Commandments. NT says to obey God's laws/commandments, not all but the tithing one.

My question: Are you refuting all tithing, or are you refuting the ten percent amount?

I will read and study this issue further. Thank you again for the explanative summary and sources. God bless.

[lily00]

I need to ask a few questions to get an understanding of where you are coming from.

This church that you attended in Houston, did it have a church building? we met in the pastor's house.

Was the pastor paid a salary? he has several sponsors, but not a salary. He never takes up an offering but we do give out of newness of the spirit, out of respect, and by what the Bible teaches (which after a start working for the first time, it can mean even more then 10% by whatever God lays on my heart to give to the church I decided to try up here... I decided to try taking a look).

What church denomination was it associated with?
non-denominational (most closely to Baptist, yet a few differing beliefs including the tithing issue and predestination)

It sounds much like a group here in Canada who refer to themselves as "The Friends" (by the way they are not Quakers".) They meet only in homes. They teach no tithing and some of the rest of the things you are asking about?

Just wondering.I always love looking into new things. I will look up "The Friends." :) (in bold)

[lily00]

Lily00 thank you very much for the informative summary. It is certainly thorough.

I came across this:
The New Testament nowhere commands, or even recommends that Christians submit to a legalistic tithe system. Paul states that believers should set aside a portion of their income in order to support the church (1 Corinthians 16:1-2).
(key word: LEGALISTIC tithe system)

The New Testament nowhere assigns a certain percentage of income to set aside, but only says it is to be “in keeping with his income” (1 Corinthians 16:2). The Christian church has essentially taken the 10% figure from the Old Testament tithe and applied it as a “recommended minimum” for Christians in their giving. Although the New Testament does not identify a specific amount or percentage to give, it does talk about the importance and benefits of giving. They should give as they are able, “in keeping with his income.” Sometimes that means giving more than a tithe, sometime that may mean giving less than a tithe. It all depends on the ability of the Christian and the needs of the church. Each and every Christian should diligently pray and seek God’s wisdom as to whether to participate in tithing and/or for how much he or she should give (James 1:5). “Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver” (2 Corinthians 9:7).

I am not trying to be argumentative by pointing out the following.
A. Nowhere does the Bible say to stop tithing or giving to one's church/temple. The NT states one should give in keeping with one's income.
B. Other laws were given to Moses and the Israelites, such as the Ten Commandments. NT says to obey God's laws/commandments, not all but the tithing one.

My question: Are you refuting all tithing, or are you refuting the ten percent amount?

I will read and study this issue further. Thank you again for the explanative summary and sources. God bless.
Dear Jolie, and thank you for your kind response! No, I am not refuting all tithing. If 10% is what a person has in his heart to give, then by all means, though tithing is not a NT command, giving is! But I am talking of the "legalistic tithe" that most churches imply today is still God's command when clearly it isn't. If a church clearly distinguished it as a "recommended minimum," then I would have no problem with it, because giving is something God commands us to do, but saying that giving 10% is essential to being a good, obedient Christian is wrong, because now we are not tied down to a minimum but can truly give out of our love for God...

"But now we have been released from the law, having died to that by which we were bound; so that we serve in newness of the spirit and not in oldness of the letter." Romans 7:6 and also...

"For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes." Romans 10:4

Still, I have decided to try this Baptist church near our house. They seem like a very warm church and I guess I can leave for that day if I find something wrong with that tithing message taking straight from the OT! :) God bless.

Oh, but about the 10 commandments. Every one of the commandments except for "Keep the sabbath day to sanctify it" is repeated in the NT. Everything becomes new after the resurrection of Jesus Christ and so, yeh, legalistic tithing and things like keeping the sabbath day to sanctify it is ended (why not worship God every day through the life you live you know?) I have awesome info on the 4th commandment also if you would like to see...) But otherwise, we would still be required to attend all those feasts and not eat pork or "unclean animals" if things did not become new and we were no longer under the law! ^_^

[lily00]

Many people who call Jesus Lord will be told "I never knew you", these are not atheists, they are poeple that believe the above.

Believing on Jesus means receiving the Life, not just believing in the death.

Eph.2:8-9 talks about grace, just because you are not under law does not mean you have received that grace !

Grace is what Jesus was full of - the nature & works of God. We receive that grace by receiving the Holy Spirit ("the Spirit of grace and of supplications" - Zech.12:10). Until then you are still "in the flesh", even though you may believe in Jesus as best you can understand him.

The Spirit was not given until after Jesus had returned to the Father, so the disciples didn't enter into New Testament salvation until Pentecost (Acts 2:4, 33, Titus 3:5-6). Then Acts shows them meeting various people who already believed in Jesus as best they could understand, but were known not to have received the Spirit yet - Acts 8:12-16; 10:36-39, 44-46; 19:1-6.
And it was known precisely when people did receive the Spirit - but the sign of speaking (praying) in tongues.
There is only one gospel, one way of salvation, so it must be the same today.
Until you receive the same you are still "in the flesh" / "in sin", "unwashed", "unregenerate".


Paul, writing to the Christians at Rome says:-
Ro:11:22: Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

The bible also speaks of "a falling away" - to fall away, one must first come to The Lord.
And the Old Testament is cited as example and warning of how many that were delivered from Egypt didn't enter the prtomised land, because of unbelief.

OSAS was the first heresy because it is effectively saying "the resurrection is passed already".


No, Jesus Christ has not changed. He is still healing the sick physically, and now greater works, spiritual blindness, deadness etc is being healed through having His Spirit indwelling.

John 14:12: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.


but Isaiah 28:11-12 actually prophesies of tongues:-
"This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing:"

NOT that it is a destructive foreign army !

Matt.11:28 & Acts 3:19 also speak of rest and refreshing coming from Jesus, the baptiser in the Holy Spirit. And Paul identifies the prophecy as of speaking in tongues which edifies the speaker - draws on God's love which means we can rest and be refreshed.



No, that passage (v12) speaks of 2 time periods, "now" and "then".

"Then" Christians shall see face to face and know even as they are known - that time has yet to come (when Jesus, the perfect one) comes, so we are still in "now" where tongues, prophecy and the other gifts remain for God to communicate with his people personally.

It is true that the New Covenant will not change but under that Covenant God is still showing that he knows about our collective and individual circumstances here in the 21st Century. These revelations and prophecies don't add to doctrine, but they make the intimacy of God as real to us today as it ever was with the disciples.
Thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts with me ATNA! Let me take a look and look back in the scripture and I will answer back to you. It might take me a little bit of time though!

[jive4005]

The only church worth going to is going to be the one that preaches Christ! You shouldn't have any trouble finding a bible based church in your area (I love the Bible Belt).

You'll only find the right church with pure motives and by the grace of God. He will show you where and who as soon as you (and I) show Him we are bonefide "seekers" of His face. THAT is when the real fun begins!

His,
Rev J

ps: personally, I would look for one that is includes blacks, whites, red, yellows and any other of God's wonderful colors. And watch out for churchs who talk it but don't walk it!

[JolieHeart]

*Runs in and gets a seat on the comfy couch, ready to take more notes... *

I sooo love brainfood (inspiring topics and learning new things) !!

Thank you lily for explaining all that. You are a delightful teacher. I had no idea that we are able to eat pork now. In my limited knowledge I thought the no-pork rule had to do with a lack of refrigeration and/or prompt cooking methods.

Best wishes regarding your neighborhood Baptist church visit!!

[lily00]

The only church worth going to is going to be the one that preaches Christ! You shouldn't have any trouble finding a bible based church in your area (I love the Bible Belt).

You'll only find the right church with pure motives and by the grace of God. He will show you where and who as soon as you (and I) show Him we are bonefide "seekers" of His face. THAT is when the real fun begins!

His,
Rev J

ps: personally, I would look for one that is includes blacks, whites, red, yellows and any other of God's wonderful colors. And watch out for churchs who talk it but don't walk it!
Amen Rev, I completely agree with that! ^_^ In the past, I judged a church by how the choir sang and how many youth there was... but now it is different. All that truly matters to me is finding a place where Christ is preached, and they teach the Bible accurately. Once I discover which places have that, then I can decide which one God is looking to lead me to. It is so hard though, because I came from this outstanding church where everyone around me was spirit-filled almost 100% of the time (even on campus when we witnessed and discipled people) and we just encouraged and exhorted each other. We are still so close though hours apart, but now I have to find a church that I will always be comparing my Forest Lane Bible Church with. Especially since many churches these days do talk it but don't walk it!

The first step was the hardest. But the church I tried tonight was a very warm Baptist church and I really liked it. We are going through the Book of Revelation, and I was very happy! I'll get to do an even deeper study at home on it. ^_^

[lily00]

*Runs in and gets a seat on the comfy couch, ready to take more notes... *

I sooo love brainfood (inspiring topics and learning new things) !!

Thank you lily for explaining all that. You are a delightful teacher. I had no idea that we are able to eat pork now. In my limited knowledge I thought the no-pork rule had to do with a lack of refrigeration and/or prompt cooking methods.

Best wishes regarding your neighborhood Baptist church visit!!
:blush: I am just an unworthy-slave. Truth comes from God's Word, and every gift, or ability, or knowledge that we have is from God, so anything good isn't really from any person, only from God for He has blessed us with all that we have. We came into this world with nothing and we will depart with nothing as well.

But as for the pork thing, there are a ton of laws in the Old Testament that are not for Christians today. When I was about 15, I went through this phase of not eating pork for about week, because I thought that I was still suppose to do all of those things in the Old Testament. I couldn't last any longer! ^_^ They were killing some hogs so I had tears of happiness eating pork chops for weeks afterward! Not until a much later date was I taught about how Christians were no longer under the law. It kind of ties into how they had to sacrifice animals for the forgiveness of their sins. We surely don't need that anymore! Our sins were paid for on the cross for ALL time!

But the thing with tithing though, is 100% of what we have belongs to the Lord, so not even a "recommended amount" is a high enough amount compared to all that God has given us! God bless.

[lily00]

Lol. I can't seem to find the non-quaker Friends you are talking about on the internet!

[jive4005]

GBY lily... I'm so glad God filled you up in that former church.... now YOU get to go and share that, most likely in churches and with people maybe not so inspired and spirit filled. Now YOU get to be the rabbi...

after all... we are a Royal Priesthood!

His,
Rev J

[lily00]

What's a rabbi? Is it like a spiritual leader? :confused:

edit: Ooh, never mind! I know what a rabbi is. Judas called Jesus a rabbi. Teacher

[lily00]

This is from my pastor from Houston...

Does a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ have to keep the “Law/law” in order to: get saved (become a Christian), stay saved (remain a Christian), get to heaven (have eternal life), or become a good Christian?

The answer is absolutely, “No”!

Some terms need to be defined and/or clarified.
“Law/law” is a term employed around 200 times in the Bible and signifies the revealed will of God with respect to human conduct. It includes all the Divine commands and principles for regu­lating man’s moral life without and within. It is used in different senses in the Bible. Such as:

(a) the requirements of human government for those people under its jurisdiction (i.e., Esther 1:8, 13, 15, 19).
(b) the Divinely instituted rule of life for the Israelites in Israel. The Law of Moses included the commandments, ordinances/judgments, statutes/decrees, and testimonies/stipulations (i.e., Deut. 6:1-3, 17; 1 Kings 2:3). It regulated the Israelites moral, social, and religious life in Israel.
(c) the entire Old Testament (i.e., in Rom. 3:19, “Law” refers to the quotes found in verses 4-18, which come from various parts of the O.T., such as from Psa. 51:4; 14:1-3; 53:1-4; 5:9; 140:3; 10:7; Isa. 59:7f), (i.e., in Jn. 12:34, “Law” refers to what is said about Christ in Isa. 9:7; Ezek. 37:25; Dan. 7:14), (i.e., in 1 Cor. 14:21, “Law” refers to what is said in Isa. 28:11f).
the entire O.T. except for the Prophets (i.e., Matt. 5:17; Acts 13:15; Rom. 3:21).
the Pentateuch (the first 5 books of the O.T. – i.e., Lk. 24:44).
(d) a governing and operating principle (i.e., Rom. 3:27; 7:21, 23; 8:2).
– Unger’s Bible Dictionary, p. 646.
– The New Bible Dictionary, p. 721.

“Covenant” – when used of God’s relation to man, is a term meaning – a promise on the part of God to arrange His providences for the welfare of those who should render Him obed­ience (Unger’s Bible Dictionary, p. 224).

– a clear statement of God’s purposes and intentions expressed in terms that bind God by solemn oath to perform what He has promised (Expository Dictionary of Bible Words, p. 194).
– the human response to the Divinely announced purpose is always important, lead­ing as it does to blessing for obedience and discipline for disobedience (The New Scofield Reference Bible, p. 5).

The “first” covenant (Heb. 8:7, 13; 9:1, 15, 18), “old” covenant (Heb. 8:13), and “Mosaic” covenant (Heb. 8.9) are all the same covenant (Heb. 8:7-9, 13; 9:18-20).

The “first”/”Mosaic” covenant regulates the personal, social, and religious life of Israel (Ex. 20:1 – 31:18). God will bless each generation of Israelites if they keep His laws and discipline each generation of Israelites if they break His laws (Ex. 23:20-33; 19:5, 6; Deut. 7:9 – 8:20; 11:8-28; 28:1-68; 30:1-20). This covenant was renewed at different periods of Jewish history (Deut. 29; Josh. 24; 2 Chron. 15:23, 29, 34; Ezra 10; Neh. 9, 10). It was the constitution of the nation of Israel. It was based on human effort, not on promise, for its performance.

The “second” covenant (Heb. 8:7), the “new” covenant (Heb. 9:15), and the “better” covenant (Heb. 7:22; 8:6) are all the same covenant.
(Vine’s An Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, p. 243).

The “new” covenant includes the promised eternal forgiveness and transformation of God’s peo­ple based on Christ’s shed blood (Heb. 8:10, 12; Matt. 26:28; Lk. 22:20). This new covenant took effect when Jesus died on the cross for the payment of the believer’s sins (Mk. 14:24; 1 Cor. 11:25). The new covenant takes the righteousness that was expressed in the law (old/Mosaic covenant – Rom. 7:12) and supernaturally infuses that righteousness into the very character of the believer – Rom. 8:3, 4; Heb. 10:10, 14-17. Thus, Hebrews quotes the O.T. foreview (Jer. 31:33, 34) as something that is now through Christ, our (Christians) own (Heb. 10:10, 14, 18). The new covenant is to be fulfilled eschatologically (at the end of this earth’s history – during the Millennium) with repentant Israel (Heb. 8:8), but participated in soteriologically (through salvation) by the Church/Christians today (Heb. 10:10-18).
(The New Scofield Reference Bible, p.1317).
Though the new covenant is specifically focused on Israel (Heb. 8:8), its blessings are extended to all Christians from the time of Jesus’ death (Lk. 22:20; 2 Cor. 3:6).
(a) an inner inclination to obey God – Heb. 8:10.
(b) a firm relationship with God – Heb. 8:10.
(c) the personal knowledge of God – Heb. 8:11.
(d) the forgiveness of sins – Heb. 8:12.

The 10 Commandments are included in or synonymous with the first/Mosaic/old covenant (Ex. 34:27, 28; Deut. 4:13).
The 10 Commandments are included in or synonymous with the Law (James 2:10-12; Rom. 13:8-10).
The Mosaic covenant (Ex. 19:5; Deut. 5:2, 3) is the same as the Mosaic Law or law (Deut. 4:8, 44, 45; 5:1).
The law (Deut. 4:44, 45) is the same as the Law of Moses (1 Kings 2:3).

Now, let’s see why the believer in the Lord Jesus Christ need not keep the Law/law to be saved, stay saved, get to heaven, or be a good Christian.

First, the law/Mosaic Law or covenant was for the Israelites (Ex. 19:1-6; 20:2, 22; 21:1; 24:3; Lev. 26:13-16, 46; 19:1-5; Deut. 5:1-3; 2 Kings 21:8; Neh. 8:1; Mal. 4:4) living in the promised land of Israel (Deut. 4:14; 6:22-24; 12:8, 9; 11:31, 32; 5:31) and not for the Gentiles in the world (Ex. 19:4-6; Deut. 7:1-8; 13:11; 14:2, 21). Aliens living in the land of Israel, however, were obligated to keep the law also (Num. 9:14, 15; 15:14-16, 29, 30; 19:10; Deut. 29:10-12; 31:12; Lev. 16:29; 17:12, 15; 18:26).

Second, the law/covenant (Mosaic) was meant to be temporary and was to end with the death of Jesus Christ (Jer. 31:31, 32; Heb. 8:6-13; 10:1-9; 7:11-22; Lk. 16:16; Eph. 2:13-16; 2 Cor. 3:5-14; Gal. 3:16, 19; Rom. 10:4; Col. 2:13, 14).

Third, justification/righteousness/sonship/salvation are obtained not by keeping/obeying the law/Mosaic Law or covenant, but by grace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ (Gal. 2:16; 3:2-26; 4:4, 5; 5:4; Rom. 3:20-28; 4:1-5; 6:14; 7:4-6; 9:30-32; 11:6; Acts 15:1, 5-11; Eph. 2:8, 9; 2 Tim. 1:9; Titus 3:5; Gal. 4:21-31).

Fourth, sanctification/spiritual growth/progressive holiness or being a good Christian is gained by being controlled and led by the Holy Spirit (Gal. 5:16, 18, 22, 23; Rom. 7:6; 8:2-4, 14; 1 Cor. 9:20).

Fifth, love for God and people is to be the guiding principle in living a holy/righteous life as a Christian, and in fact, fulfills/carries out/fully meets or is the essence of the Law (Rom. 13:8-10; Gal. 5:14; James 2:8; 1 Tim. 1:5; 1 Cor. 16:14; Col. 3:14; Matt. 22:38-40).

2 Cor. 3:7, 11 – “Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses be­cause of its glory, fading though it was, will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? … And if what was fading away came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!”

[AllTalkNoAction]

Lily – what is your response to the points I made in #10 of this thread ?

[DeanM]

If it were me in a new town, I would attend a few services around town and see where I felt the most comfortable with the people and their message.

Beyond that, I am hopeful that the church is in agreement with my beliefs. Whether they are or not, I would want to be with people who are striving to be good Christians.

Blessings

[lily00]

Lily – what is your response to the points I made in #10 of this thread ?
I am taking my time on that. I will respond Monday, but I really love bits about eternal security and everything so I want to make sure and give you a good answer. Please be patient for I am looking up the scripture you are talking about. :hug:

[JolieHeart]

*Peeks back in and waves*

[Zecryphon]

"HI! I just moved from HOuston, and I am trying to find a church in Austin that can say yes to all of these questions. It is the criteria I use to find a church but mostly it is number 7 that I can't get a yes on. I did a lot of research on it to conclude that tithing is from the law and is no longer for Christians today. Anyway, if you know a church that does teach absolutely from the Truth of God's Word, please let me know so I can go!"

I am completely biased, but my advice to you would be to find the nearest conservative Lutheran church and start attending. ;)

"1.Do you believe that the Bible is the only inspired Word of God, and that it is without error in its entirety (2 Tim. 3:16; 2 Pet. 1:20, 21; Psa. 119:160; Jn. 17:17; Rev. 22:18, 19; Jude 1:3)?"


Yep, not gonna save me though.

"2.Do you believe that Jesus Christ always was from eternity past, is, and always will be God (Jn. 1:1, 2, 14; 8:58; Micah 5:2; Rev. 22:13, 16; 1:8)?"


Yep, not gonna save me though.

"3.Do you believe that a person is saved (becomes a Christian) and will therefore go to heaven simply by believing that Jesus Christ, God’s Son, died (and thereby paid the complete penalty) for all of the believing person’s sins, so that he is completely forgiven and declared perfect in the eyes of God (Eph. 2:8, 9; 1 Cor. 15:1-4; 1 Pet. 3:18; 1:3-5; Col. 2:13, 14; Acts 13:38, 39)?"


Nope. I believe a person is saved, when they have had a revelation from the Holy Spirit and that revelation is, that they are have broken God's moral law, the 10 Commandments, are worthy of being sent straight to Hell when they die, because God is just and holy and they now need a savior to step in and save them because they can't save themselves. That savior is Jesus Christ. A person is saved when they repent of their sins, which means they acknowledge, confess and turn from their sins and place their faith and trust in Him for salvation and eternal life. Only then is a person soundly saved. Even Satan and the demons believe that Jesus Christ is God's Son and died on the cross. Are they going to Heaven at any time in the forseeable future?


"4.Do you believe that once a person is saved (becomes a Christian) he cannot lose his salvation nor forfeit going to heaven under any circumstances (Eph. 1:13, 14; 4:30; 2:8, 9; Rom. 11:28, 29; Heb. 10:10; Gal. 3:1-3; 1 Jn. 5:11-13; Jn. 6:47)?"


I'm looking into this one.

"5.Do you believe that the following gifts of the Holy Spirit ended before the year AD 95 and are no longer for Christians for today: speaking in tongues, the ability to heal anybody or everybody at will, direct personal revelations/prophecies from God, and the ability to perform miracles?"


Yep.

"6.Do you believe that all Christians should be evangelizing (sharing the gospel with) unbelievers and building up and equipping (teaching, training, and trait-building Christian character in) believers if these Christians have the capability and opportunity to do so (Matt. 28:19, 20; Acts 10:42, 43; 13:46, 47; 1 Pet. 2:9; Phil. 1:7, 12, 13, 21; 4:9; Rom. 14:19; 1 Thes. 5:11; Eph. 4:11-13)?"


Yep, but evangelism is a serious business that should not be entered into lightly. People who are new to the faith should not immediately go out into the streets to witness. When the disciples were given the Great Commission by Jesus in Matthew, they had been living and studying with him for at least two or three years. They knew their stuff. We too, if we want to be effective, MUST know our stuff too, so we are not tripped up or confused by the world out there. Whe have to know what we believe and why we believe it. We need a great defense as well as a great offense. We're sharing a message with the world that has eternal ramifications and consequences, the stakes are just too high for a newbie to be engaged in this activity.


7.Do you believe that it is not essential for a Christian to tithe (give 10% of his income) to a church in order to be a good, obedient Christian (2 Cor. 9:7; Rom. 10:4; 6:14, 15; 7:6)?

No, I believe it is essential that we tithe. Everything we have comes from God our Father. What does it say about what kind of stewards we are with God's possessions if we just want to keep it all to ourselves and do not show our gratitude to God for all He has done for us?

"8.Do you believe that it is not essential to go to a building called “a church” on Sundays in order to be a good, obedient Christian (Col. 2:16, 17; 4:15; Rom. 14:4, 5; 16:5; 1 Cor. 16:19; Philemon 1:2)?"

No, I do not believe that. You can not forsake the gathering of the saints. Now if you are handicapped or unable to attend for some other reason, illness, etc., then you should work on finding a way to have fellowship with other believers. There is a way to have this and not leave your house. There is a ministry called Lifechurch.tv that you can watch right from your own home. You can also go to www.secondlife.com (http://www.secondlife.com) and download the free software and find other Christians to interact with that way. It's a free online game where Christians, who are a small minority of the total population, have established ministries, churches, prayer groups, etc. to share their faith with other Christians and the world at large. It's a great evangelism tool and a great alternative to going to church if you absolutely can not go. I believe it is important to attend church also, because that is where we honor and worship God and are able to come to His table in Communion.

[ozell]

hi lily00

HI! I just moved from HOuston, and I am trying to find a church in Austin that can say yes to all of these questions. It is the criteria I use to find a church but mostly it is number 7 that I can't get a yes on. I did a lot of research on it to conclude that tithing is from the law and is no longer for Christians today. Anyway, if you know a church that does teach absolutely from the Truth of God's Word, please let me know so I can go!


1.Do you believe that the Bible is the only inspired Word of God, and that it is without error in its entirety (2 Tim. 3:16; 2 Pet. 1:20, 21; Psa. 119:160; Jn. 17:17; Rev. 22:18, 19; Jude 1:3)?

Our purpose is to learn the uncut word of God according to the Prophets (old testament) and Apostles (new testament). We observe the Lord's Sabbath Day. We observe all of the Lord's Feast Days, as outlined in the 23rd chapter of Leviticus. We observe the Lord's Dietary Law, as outlined in Leviticus, Chapter 11. We teach, and observe the Royal Law, which is the Ten Commandments. We believe in the resurrection. We believe that Jesus is the King of Israel and that he will rule over the House of Jacob forever. We believe that Jesus is the God of all people, and that his house "shall be a house of prayer for all people."
(Isaiah 56:7)

2.Do you believe that Jesus Christ always was from eternity past, is, and always will be God (Jn. 1:1, 2, 14; 8:58; Micah 5:2; Rev. 22:13, 16; 1:8)?

Jesus is the past, the present and forever
Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

3.Do you believe that a person is saved (becomes a Christian) and will therefore go to heaven simply by believing that Jesus Christ, God’s Son, died (and thereby paid the complete penalty) for all of the believing person’s sins, so that he is completely forgiven and declared perfect in the eyes of God (Eph. 2:8, 9; 1 Cor. 15:1-4; 1 Pet. 3:18; 1:3-5; Col. 2:13, 14; Acts 13:38, 39)?

Mt 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Jms 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

4.Do you believe that once a person is saved (becomes a Christian) he cannot lose his salvation nor forfeit going to heaven under any circumstances (Eph. 1:13, 14; 4:30; 2:8, 9; Rom. 11:28, 29; Heb. 10:10; Gal. 3:1-3; 1 Jn. 5:11-13; Jn. 6:47)?

1Pt 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

Ezek 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

5.Do you believe that the following gifts of the Holy Spirit ended before the year AD 95 and are no longer for Christians for today: speaking in tongues, the ability to heal anybody or everybody at will, direct personal revelations/prophecies from God, and the ability to perform miracles?


who give these gift? Jesus: Jesus is still here after AD95

1Cor 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
1Cor 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;


6.Do you believe that all Christians should be evangelizing (sharing the gospel with) unbelievers and building up and equipping (teaching, training, and trait-building Christian character in) believers if these Christians have the capability and opportunity to do so (Matt. 28:19, 20; Acts 10:42, 43; 13:46, 47; 1 Pet. 2:9; Phil. 1:7, 12, 13, 21; 4:9; Rom. 14:19; 1 Thes. 5:11; Eph. 4:11-13)?

only if that christian have the wisdom, knowledge and understanding from the LORD.
Prov 1:2 To know wisdom and instruction; to perceive the words of understanding;
Prov 1:5 A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels:
Prov 2:2 So that thou incline thine ear unto wisdom, and apply thine heart to understanding;
Prov 2:3 Yea, if thou criest after knowledge, and liftest up thy voice for understanding;
Prov 2:6 For the LORD giveth wisdom: out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding.
Prov 2:11 Discretion shall preserve thee, understanding shall keep thee:
Prov 3:4 So shalt thou find favour and good understanding in the sight of God and man.
Prov 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
Prov 3:13 Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding.

7.Do you believe that it is not essential for a Christian to tithe (give 10% of his income) to a church in order to be a good, obedient Christian (2 Cor. 9:7; Rom. 10:4; 6:14, 15; 7:6)?


Isa 55:1 Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.

2: Wherefore do ye spend money for that which is not bread? and your labour for that which satisfieth not? hearken diligently unto me, and eat ye that which is good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness.

3: Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.

8.Do you believe that it is not essential to go to a building called “a church” on Sundays in order to be a good, obedient Christian (Col. 2:16, 17; 4:15; Rom. 14:4, 5; 16:5; 1 Cor. 16:19; Philemon 1:2)?

Jesus went into a building
Lk 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

ozell

[JolieHeart]

I believe that one does not have to be in a recognized church/temple type of building to worship. One can worship anywhere, at any time. GBU all.

[lily00]

Atna, sorry it has been taking me so long to respond, but I haven't forgotten. The past two days though, I had to go to Houston to move my things to Leander, and I just started my job today, so it might take me longer then suspected. I am doing a study on this though, because you gave really good responses, though misinterpreted responses. I am looking over it well though, so I really want to get back to you on this if you don't mind the wait. Thanks though, this is really great! lily00:angel:

[lily00]

"HI! I just moved from HOuston, and I am trying to find a church in Austin that can say yes to all of these questions. It is the criteria I use to find a church but mostly it is number 7 that I can't get a yes on. I did a lot of research on it to conclude that tithing is from the law and is no longer for Christians today. Anyway, if you know a church that does teach absolutely from the Truth of God's Word, please let me know so I can go!"

I am completely biased, but my advice to you would be to find the nearest conservative Lutheran church and start attending. ;)

"1.Do you believe that the Bible is the only inspired Word of God, and that it is without error in its entirety (2 Tim. 3:16; 2 Pet. 1:20, 21; Psa. 119:160; Jn. 17:17; Rev. 22:18, 19; Jude 1:3)?"


Yep, not gonna save me though.

"2.Do you believe that Jesus Christ always was from eternity past, is, and always will be God (Jn. 1:1, 2, 14; 8:58; Micah 5:2; Rev. 22:13, 16; 1:8)?"


Yep, not gonna save me though.

"3.Do you believe that a person is saved (becomes a Christian) and will therefore go to heaven simply by believing that Jesus Christ, God’s Son, died (and thereby paid the complete penalty) for all of the believing person’s sins, so that he is completely forgiven and declared perfect in the eyes of God (Eph. 2:8, 9; 1 Cor. 15:1-4; 1 Pet. 3:18; 1:3-5; Col. 2:13, 14; Acts 13:38, 39)?"


Nope. I believe a person is saved, when they have had a revelation from the Holy Spirit and that revelation is, that they are have broken God's moral law, the 10 Commandments, are worthy of being sent straight to Hell when they die, because God is just and holy and they now need a savior to step in and save them because they can't save themselves. That savior is Jesus Christ. A person is saved when they repent of their sins, which means they acknowledge, confess and turn from their sins and place their faith and trust in Him for salvation and eternal life. Only then is a person soundly saved. Even Satan and the demons believe that Jesus Christ is God's Son and died on the cross. Are they going to Heaven at any time in the forseeable future?


"4.Do you believe that once a person is saved (becomes a Christian) he cannot lose his salvation nor forfeit going to heaven under any circumstances (Eph. 1:13, 14; 4:30; 2:8, 9; Rom. 11:28, 29; Heb. 10:10; Gal. 3:1-3; 1 Jn. 5:11-13; Jn. 6:47)?"


I'm looking into this one.

"5.Do you believe that the following gifts of the Holy Spirit ended before the year AD 95 and are no longer for Christians for today: speaking in tongues, the ability to heal anybody or everybody at will, direct personal revelations/prophecies from God, and the ability to perform miracles?"


Yep.

"6.Do you believe that all Christians should be evangelizing (sharing the gospel with) unbelievers and building up and equipping (teaching, training, and trait-building Christian character in) believers if these Christians have the capability and opportunity to do so (Matt. 28:19, 20; Acts 10:42, 43; 13:46, 47; 1 Pet. 2:9; Phil. 1:7, 12, 13, 21; 4:9; Rom. 14:19; 1 Thes. 5:11; Eph. 4:11-13)?"


Yep, but evangelism is a serious business that should not be entered into lightly. People who are new to the faith should not immediately go out into the streets to witness. When the disciples were given the Great Commission by Jesus in Matthew, they had been living and studying with him for at least two or three years. They knew their stuff. We too, if we want to be effective, MUST know our stuff too, so we are not tripped up or confused by the world out there. Whe have to know what we believe and why we believe it. We need a great defense as well as a great offense. We're sharing a message with the world that has eternal ramifications and consequences, the stakes are just too high for a newbie to be engaged in this activity.


7.Do you believe that it is not essential for a Christian to tithe (give 10% of his income) to a church in order to be a good, obedient Christian (2 Cor. 9:7; Rom. 10:4; 6:14, 15; 7:6)?

No, I believe it is essential that we tithe. Everything we have comes from God our Father. What does it say about what kind of stewards we are with God's possessions if we just want to keep it all to ourselves and do not show our gratitude to God for all He has done for us?

"8.Do you believe that it is not essential to go to a building called “a church” on Sundays in order to be a good, obedient Christian (Col. 2:16, 17; 4:15; Rom. 14:4, 5; 16:5; 1 Cor. 16:19; Philemon 1:2)?"

No, I do not believe that. You can not forsake the gathering of the saints. Now if you are handicapped or unable to attend for some other reason, illness, etc., then you should work on finding a way to have fellowship with other believers. There is a way to have this and not leave your house. There is a ministry called Lifechurch.tv that you can watch right from your own home. You can also go to www.secondlife.com (http://www.secondlife.com) and download the free software and find other Christians to interact with that way. It's a free online game where Christians, who are a small minority of the total population, have established ministries, churches, prayer groups, etc. to share their faith with other Christians and the world at large. It's a great evangelism tool and a great alternative to going to church if you absolutely can not go. I believe it is important to attend church also, because that is where we honor and worship God and are able to come to His table in Communion.
Thank you for your responses. I don't know what Lutheran is so that is something else I will have to look up. :D

I guess I can say this now though. There are two different meanings to "believe". One is used like as with the demons. What about in John 3:16 though? "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life." Clearly, this isn't the same as what the other means. This is the type of "believe" I mean in my question. It isn't just believing in a man that performed miracles, preached God's word, and died on a cross 2000 years ago whom people say died for their sins. I believed that way for the longest. It is trusting in a saviour, the living Lord Jesus Christ, the sovereign God, who caught sinners by the thread of their britches and took them from the flames to be in His presence. I am just trying to stress that salvation is NOT by works, but it is by trusting in Jesus Christ's death on the cross alone as payment for our sins. Believing in that way, you do have eternal life and I am completely sure of that!

But also, it isn't just breaking the 10 commandments that makes you a sinner. Adam's original sin was imputed into all of mankind... we are born wretched sinners who need God's grace...

[lily00]

hi lily00






Our purpose is to learn the uncut word of God according to the Prophets (old testament) and Apostles (new testament). We observe the Lord's Sabbath Day. We observe all of the Lord's Feast Days, as outlined in the 23rd chapter of Leviticus. We observe the Lord's Dietary Law, as outlined in Leviticus, Chapter 11. We teach, and observe the Royal Law, which is the Ten Commandments. We believe in the resurrection. We believe that Jesus is the King of Israel and that he will rule over the House of Jacob forever. We believe that Jesus is the God of all people, and that his house "shall be a house of prayer for all people."
(Isaiah 56:7)



Jesus is the past, the present and forever
Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.



Mt 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Jms 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.



1Pt 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

Ezek 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.



who give these gift? Jesus: Jesus is still here after AD95

1Cor 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
1Cor 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;




only if that christian have the wisdom, knowledge and understanding from the LORD.
Prov 1:2 To know wisdom and instruction; to perceive the words of understanding;
Prov 1:5 A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels:
Prov 2:2 So that thou incline thine ear unto wisdom, and apply thine heart to understanding;
Prov 2:3 Yea, if thou criest after knowledge, and liftest up thy voice for understanding;
Prov 2:6 For the LORD giveth wisdom: out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding.
Prov 2:11 Discretion shall preserve thee, understanding shall keep thee:
Prov 3:4 So shalt thou find favour and good understanding in the sight of God and man.
Prov 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
Prov 3:13 Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding.



Isa 55:1 Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.

2: Wherefore do ye spend money for that which is not bread? and your labour for that which satisfieth not? hearken diligently unto me, and eat ye that which is good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness.

3: Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.

8.Do you believe that it is not essential to go to a building called “a church” on Sundays in order to be a good, obedient Christian (Col. 2:16, 17; 4:15; Rom. 14:4, 5; 16:5; 1 Cor. 16:19; Philemon 1:2)?

Jesus went into a building
Lk 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

ozell
Very interesting. Are you Orthodox? I don't run into this a lot at all.

[ozell]

hi lily00

Sorry for being late in my response.

Very interesting. Are you Orthodox? I don't run into this a lot at all.

No.

I and the church I attend are christians and we believe all the words of God.

what make us unique is the way our lesson or setup.
which helps in our understanding.

Isa 28v9: Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
10: For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
11: For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
12: To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
13: But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

2Tm 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

this is the key to understanding the bible

[lily00]

hi lily00

Sorry for being late in my response.



No.

I and the church I attend are christians and we believe all the words of God.

what make us unique is the way our lesson or setup.
which helps in our understanding.

Isa 28v9: Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
10: For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
11: For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
12: To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
13: But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

2Tm 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

this is the key to understanding the bible
I agree. How do you interpret these verses?

"For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes." Romans 10:4

"But now we have been released from the law, having died to that by which we were bound; so that we serve in newness of the spirit and not in oldness of the letter." Romans 7:6

[ozell]

I agree. How do you interpret these verses?

"For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes." Romans 10:4

"But now we have been released from the law, having died to that by which we were bound; so that we serve in newness of the spirit and not in oldness of the letter." Romans 7:6


what law? There are many laws in the bible

is Jesus the end of the 10 commandments?
is Jesus the end of the feast days?
is Jesus the end of dietary laws?

keep in mind the the apostles kept the above long after Jesus death and resurrection.

Is Jesus the end of animal sacrifice?
animal sacrifice was a law.

read what Paul says in Hebrew 10

Heb10v1: For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
2: For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
3: But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
4: For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
5: Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

what law was nailed to the cross?
what law has ended?
we know it 's not the commandments for we still sin.
what law was a school master until Jesus came?

ANIMAL SACRIFICE! this was a law.

before Jesus came in the flesh when a man sinned blood had to be shed.

[AllTalkNoAction]

Many seek a church that suits them, but God seeks people to worship him his way.
I hope you find a church that pleases God soon lily (and anyone else).
Only by being active in such a church are we serving God and loving people with his love, not man's.

I chose my name because polite discussion about the things of God is no substitute for actually doing the things it says.

[ozell]

The search for a church of God starts with understanding the word of God. This is how we find the church of God

Eccl 12v9: And moreover, because the preacher was wise, he still taught the people knowledge; yea, he gave good heed, and sought out, and set in order many proverbs.

10: The preacher sought to find out acceptable words: and that which was written was upright, even words of truth.

Jer 3:15 And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding.

ozell

[TheGloryisHere]

I think you're going to have a hard time finding a church here (in austin). The closest I can say you might be, is Baptist. But, as far as I know, they do believe in tithing. I don't know of any church here that doesnt' believe in tithing, including in Bastrop where I go to church now. All the non-denominational churches in Austin are Spirit filled and I believe they all speak in tongues. Unless there is a new one I haven't tried that has started up in the last few years. Guess you could call them on the phone and ask. We have a lot of them, though.

[JolieHeart]

*Inserts a plastic nickel of thought: Come to think of it, I don't think there are any churches which actively negate the 10% tithing. As businesses, they are dependent upon income. Whether legalistically or recommended amounts, it would be interesting to find a house of worship that actively puts the idea out there that ten percent is not the "correct" (for lack of a better word) amount. Once folks understand what lily00 has pointed out about the ten percent legal tithe, folks might be inclined to withhold more from the offering plate. Perhaps this is why the issue is not widely known and not often discussed from the pulpit.

God bless you all.

[lily00]

I think you're going to have a hard time finding a church here (in austin). The closest I can say you might be, is Baptist. But, as far as I know, they do believe in tithing. I don't know of any church here that doesnt' believe in tithing, including in Bastrop where I go to church now. All the non-denominational churches in Austin are Spirit filled and I believe they all speak in tongues. Unless there is a new one I haven't tried that has started up in the last few years. Guess you could call them on the phone and ask. We have a lot of them, though.
Well, yes. There are very few non-denominational churches that don't speak in tongues, so I am definitely checking out Baptist churches because I had gone to a Baptist church all of my life before entering into my ministry. And most who were at Forest Lane Bbiel had come from a Baptist church as well. Sadly, that is true. And I am just not sure if it is compromise or not going to a church that does tithe, though I am checking one out.

[tattooedchristians]

Hi, I am very new here and this post seemed to start as someone searching for a church. So if anyone is living in the Southlake TX area we have been going to a Non Denominational called Gateway. Come visit you will not be disappointed. God Bless

[lily00]

Welcome to Christian Forums tc! :hug: If you need any help finding anything, just pm me (private message, Lol. I had no idea what that was when I first got on!).

And thank you. If that is in Austin, I have no idea where that is...

[AllTalkNoAction]

Hi lily, u said u were open to correction on points 3,4 & 5, u said u were going to get back to me . . . r u still interested ?

[YourChild]

I am not looking at rules, I am looking at truth. It is like sending your child to a school that teaches that the world is square, and that the grass is blue, and that air isn't needed to breathe. How much more important is going to a church that teaches the truth? I agree that I am not part of a "religion," but part of the body of Christ and that it is as you say in Matthew 18:20, though it it is talking of a specific meeting where the church seeks the reconciliation of two Christians separated by some sin. But more importantly I am a child of God who will follow God before the majority of Christians that are blinded by false doctrine. I cannot subject myself to that. Am I forsaking the assembly of the church? No, not at all, but I have not found one that is like-minded in these areas of my personal beliefs (except for my church in HOuston) taken from the heart of God's Word and I strongly desire that.


ummm...some of the rules here I would have to answer no. (like the one about the gifts of the Holy Spirit, I know these gifts are still operating today. if you dont believe God still distributes these gifts to you then apparently you're not going to receive it)

[AllTalkNoAction]

Hi lily, u said u were open to correction on points 3,4 & 5, u said u were going to get back to me . . . r u still interested ?
Evidently not.