Please explain the Trinity

[Eleknar]

I know the Trinity is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. What I want to know is how does this work? This is probably a stupid question but they are three separate beings but they are all the same correct? Also, when I pray which am I praying to or can I pray to either of the three or all three at the same time. I am a Christian and I should probably already know this stuff but I don't. Please help. Thank you. God bless.

Kory

[stone]

Also, when I pray which am I praying to or can I pray to either of the three or all three at the same time.

Kory

Mathew

6:8
Therefore do not be like them. For your Father knows the things you have need of before you ask Him.

6:9
In this manner, therefore, pray: Our Father in heaven, Hallowed be Your name.

6:10
Your kingdom come. Your will be done On earth as it is in heaven.

6:11
Give us this day our daily bread.

6:12
And forgive us our debts, As we forgive our debtors.

6:13
And do not lead us into temptation, But deliver us from the evil one. For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.

[stone]

I think its best to start from the beginning:

Genesis 1:1-2 1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Here you see that gd created the heavens, then the earth.

Nothing is further mentioned of the heavens, but of the earth.

The spirit of gd, is of course the holy spirit.

You can see the distinction between the two here.

[stone]

Mt 12:32
Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.



John 1:1-4
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.


John 1:5-14
5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

[malckiah]

Well, there are alot of things about God that cannot be explained.....i feel i can give you a very basic idea, but God is soooo much more than our brains can comprehend!
Maybe a way to understand is to make a comparison....for instance, look at an egg. It's one item....Egg. Yet it has three parts...the shell, the white part, then the yellow yoke in the middle.

As far as praying....All three play a vital part.
We are to pray in The Power of The Holy Spirit....you should ask that The Spirit guide you in your prayer each time before you pray.
You are only able to go into God's presence because of what Jesus did for you.....So you are to pray in Jesus name...or in other words....pray knowing that you are able to come into the presense of God The Father ONLY because of the sacrifice made on your behalf by Jesus and your sins are forgiven!
Then ofcourse you are praying to God The Father.

So...1. You pray with the guidance of The Holy Spirit.
2. You pray to God The Father
3. You pray to God The Father through Jesus Christ!

I hope this was helpful my friend! God Bless!:wave:

[flyingsum0]

The Father is the protein the body needs: He helps us grow and makes us strong.
The Son is like carbohydrates we eat; He gives us vitality and strength to help and teach others.
Holy Spirit is like our vitamins; He keeps us healthy and able defending against infections - Evil and the temptations of Satan.

[stone]

wow, your a big guy.

ummm... yea, what he said. :thumbsup:

[Peregrino]

I am not Roman Catholic, but I acknowledge they have an impressive theological framework. So here's the article on this subject from the Catholic Encyclopedia: The Trinity (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15047a.htm). It's theologically formal at times, but it is abundant in scriptural foundations.

[Mling]

You seem to have the basic concept of the Trinity. Is the problem just that you are having trouble wrapping your mind around separate and yet the same?

If that's the case then, sadly, there isn't a whole lot another person can do to help clarify. It's one of those things that you have to keep stretching your brain at until suddenly, it fits. It might help to study Hinduism a bit and try to understand how their mythology works. After that, the Trinity is downright easy!

What it comes down to is, they, as the Three, compose the One, but the One is more than just an organization of three entities. They are three manifestations of the same diety.

[Eleknar]

I think that's my problem, having trouble wrapping my mind around that concept. I'll be alright.

[Sophrosyne]

The most simplest but effective explanation of the trinity I have come across is as follows:
The Father is the planner,
The Son is the Doer, the one that does it all,
The Holy Spirit is the Empowerer and Revealer.
This is very oversimplified as there a many attributes shared by all 3 persons of the trinity, but it gives you a rough starting point to build upon.

[biblelife]

It is impossible to explain Trinity. Only faith in Trinity!

[DavidPresently]

The confusion is not over the three portion, but the "one" portion. I believe most of this confusion is over language barrier - that is, things getting lost in translation.

Before I go further, I want to be clear that I agree with "God in three persons," and the Nicene Creed. However, as the OP stated, the issue is not with whether we believe that, which the Scriptures state, but HOW it works out.

I did an exhaustive study from the Hebrew language, starting with the beginning (Genesis), concerning the subject, along with other subjects, and found that the understanding given in the foundational OT teachings, which Jesus and his disciples preached and taught from, is often quite different, not in principles, but in details, than the Greco-Roman mindset understood in "traditional Christianity" of today.

I'll give you a few examples quickly and then leave it to you to study it out yourself, prayerfully, and come to your own conclusion, if it is a subject you are interested in and want to get past.

Elohim is the most common Hebrew word that we translate as "God." However, the word Elohim has a lot of meaning packed into that one word, while "God" is a generic term that is non-specific in such detail as found in Elohim.

In the Paleo Hebrew, letter by letter, the literal meaning of Elohim is "Mighty Ruling (or Shepherding) Spirits." They (Gen 1:26) are all three things - Mighty, Shepherds/Rulers (God), and Spirits. The rest of the Scriptures bear this out about all three persons. I'm sure you can see that, so I won't go further in proving that point specifically.

Elohim is plural (having the "im" suffix making it plural in Hebrew). Though tradition states that this is just for magnitude purposes, and not numerical, this is not always true as we can see in Genesis 1:26 very clearly, and in other passages where the three are mentioned separately.

Elohim, the plural masculine term, comes from putting two singular terms together from ancient Hebrew. El, which is singular masculine and in ancient Hebrew literally means Mighty Shepherd, and Eloah, the singular feminine, which literally means Mighty Shepherd Spirit. Putting them together we get the plural that mixes masculine and feminine.

Concerning Eloah, we can see scripturally which person of the three does the feminine type working displayed in the types and shadows of the feminine such as women. The Holy Spirit broods over the earth like a mother bird her nest. The Holy Spirit births forth the children of God (John 3). The Holy Spirit is a nurturing Comforter, as Jesus described saying, "I do not leave you as orphans." Though there is apparently not true gender in the spirit, as we think of in the flesh, the works are what we would consider feminine, so the words in Hebrew, of the ancient Hebrew forefathers of faith, were feminine at times.

The confusion seems to come in from two primary angles. First, when Genesis 1:26 clearly says "Let us," plural, and Genesis 1:27 then says "he," singular. The revelation I've received on this from our Lord, is that the "Us," is the family of God (Elohim) making a family decision to create a creature in their own image and likeness (man). He (the Word, Son) is the "he" in Genesis 1:27 that actually did his Father's will displayed in the Father saying "Let US." The Holy Spirit was then the one working with the Word, to bring it to pass.

We see this way in which they operate together. Father = Architect (planner), head of family, primary decision maker (just like the type and shadow is to be). He wills, and we are to pray "Your will be done." Son = Word, who declares the thing by his word of faith, given to him by his Father's plan/will. And, the Holy Spirit = the one acting like a mother birthing forth the creation and nurturing it. That is, the one who takes care of the house.

The type and shadow (man, woman, children) was created to give us a clue about this, though the family in heaven obviously is not in gender like the physical creatures, but those types and shadows do speak of a principle of their unity and operation.

It is not an accident of how Adamkind was created, male and female, and birthing forth natural children, who can then later become spiritual children of God (John 3). Every thing God (Father) wills, and had done, is for a reason.

So, we see that they are the "family named in heaven," and we become a part of it under them as their children, by the work spoken of in John 3.

Ephesians 3:14-15 MKJV For this cause I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, (15) of whom the whole family in Heaven and earth is named,

Jesus came in his Father's name, according to the Scriptures. What is that name? What is the family name? Do you know?

Pro 30:4 Who has gone up to Heaven and has come down? Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has bound the waters in His garments? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name, and what is His Son's name? Surely you know.

The family name is found in the Hebrew texts, as given to Moses. Transliterated out directly into English, we get letter for letter, YHWH. The pronunciation of this as it would have been in ancient Hebrew is debated. The truth is, we aren't sure how Moses and others pronounced it. Today, the most commonly known among us is "Jehovah." Others go with "Yahweh," which has come about by more research than was available hundreds of years ago when they said "Jehovah." I personal, after some research into paleo Hebrew, instead of modern which has changed from the original, believe it is actually more like Jehovah, on when de-anglicized, it comes out as "Yahuah." The short form we all know and agree on pronunciation as "Yah," as in HalleluYah which means in Hebrew, "Praise you Yah." You may have said that or heard it before without knowing, being ignorant.

The name of Jesus in ancient Hebrew, concerning pronunciation, is also debatable. It is the same name given to Hosea by Moses, who changed his name to "Joshua." De-anglicizing this brings us to Yahshua, which you'll see me use sometimes. It means, "Yah he saves" or "Yah is salvation." It is a contraction of the longer for Yahuah Shua, or Jehovah Shua, and a putting together of Yahuah and Yasha (which means to bring out into an open place, that is, to give liberty to - freedom). Think of that in line with Isaiah 61 for some good meditating on the Word time! :yum:

A further contracted form that was common in Judea 2000 years ago, due to the Aramaic dialect common there, was Yeshua or Y'shua. You may have noticed this form in Aramaic in "The Passion of the Christ" by Mel Gibson. His research was accurate.

We get "Jesus" from going from Yeshua in Aramaic, to Iesous in Greek, to Yesoos in old English, to Jesus in modern English. It is all due to language change over time, that the name in modern English has become pronounced so differently than 2000 years ago by the Hebrews (apostles).

The confusion over how they are "one," is also a "lost in translation" issue, when it comes to the details. Again, we all agree with the Nicene Creed, in the foundational principles there of belief. The details of "how" is the mystery and what we may be confused about.

In the OT it says, "Hear, oh Israel, Yahuah/Jehovah your Elohim, Yahuah is one." The word there translated as "one," is echad, and literally means "unity," not the number one. Translated literally, the text then reads into English, "Hear, oh Israel, Yahuah your Mighty Shepherd Spirits, Yahuah is unified.

Jesus taught the same exact thing in the NT.

John 17:11 MKJV And now I am in the world no longer, but these are in the world, and I come to You, Holy Father. Keep them in Your name, those whom You have given Me, so that they may be one as We are.

That is, they want us to be unified (echad) just as they are unified (echad). This does not mean we are all the same person, it means we are different individuals in unity.

The unity, according to the Scriptures, of Elohim (Father, Son, Holy Spirit), is so perfect, that they are exactly alike in mind/will and purpose, with only their functions (roles) in regard to their creation being differentiated. This is why Jesus could tell Philip basically, "He who has seen me, has seen the Father." He's in the exact same image/likeness - they are no different in being, but only in their works concerning creation.

John 14:8-9 MKJV Philip said to Him, Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us. (9) Jesus said to him, Have I been with you such a long time and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father. And how do you say, Show us the Father?

Jesus obviously didn't mean literally, he meant in principle - because he's the perfect image begotten of the invisible God as Paul said. For now, he is the only Way for us to see the Father, to know him. "No man goes to the Father, but through me."

We know he and the Father are separate persons, as we all here agree, because it is clearly taught so in the NT Scriptures. We also know that the Holy Spirit is another separate person.

So then, being separate persons, how are they one? By being in absolutely perfect unity - so perfect, that at this time in our experience, we can't fathom it. We've not yet been that unified with anyone else, even our own natural parents, siblings, or spouses.

So, to wrap up, some things are just lost in translation, but the details of "how" they work is right there in the Scriptures, if we search diligently. The meanings of Elohim from ancient times (not modern Judaism which has strayed, obviously) and echad, are important in understanding "One God in three persons."

If you search some of the earlier "church fathers" writings, you'll find some of them mentioned some of these things, but the knowledge was lost through the "dark ages," when knowledge was kept from the "common man" until the common man began to break free from that tyranny and was given the Scriptures for himself to study, finally.

I hope this helps!

Your servant in Messiah,

David

[sonofkorah]

If you understood everything about God, then I would suggest that you have a god that is about the same size and capacity as yourself. By definition, would that really be God?

:)

[jive4005]

Explaining the Trinity... like peeling an onion, every time you reveal something, it then reveals something else that is new.

I KNOW what the bible tells me, I know what the learned experts (at least some of them) say.
I know, in my head, several reasons for this and that.

But God don't speak to me thru my head... He uses much deeper ways.

I am a happy man... I can say I walk with God. Not being prideful... simply at peace and elated.

This is what my faith and my heart know about the Trinity.

First, don't get hung up on labels of the various parts, it's all of one real and existing supreme being... I call Him Daddy, Abba, Lord, God, Jesus, Holy Spirit, Father, Savior...

and I have much trouble separating one from another... but I do see both subtle and great differences in Them.

When I think of Abba (Father) I indeed think of a Daddy... but also realize that my Daddy is also the magnificent Creator of the entire universe, Maker, Shaker, Power Incarnate. This is the God who tasks me and chids me and prods me towars obedience... and blesses my greatly.

I see Jesus (Son) I see God's manifesttion of Himself for man. I see a God so loving, He couldn't get close enough to us without having been with us and in us.
Certainly Christ came because of His plan, but I believe God really enjoyed coming and living with us. He tells me He still does. He says He lives in our praises.

When I think of the Holy Spirit (THIS is the tough one) I think about the very Power of God. I believe that power to be a small part of what we understand as love. I believe that God and Power and Christ and Spirit are all inseparable from what we call God... whom I call Abba.

God is so much more than just the limits we put upon understanding Him.
When Christ taught us about the Trinity, He was showng us the Love. He was trying to explain very complex spiritual concepts to limited human brains. He was trying to show us the extremes God to in order to bless us, contact us, empower us and reside with and in us!

Now, nobody is going to put this defintion into any book, but I pray and hope it touches hearts and perhaps a few "Greek" minds.

[james415]

I know the Trinity is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. What I want to know is how does this work? This is probably a stupid question but they are three separate beings but they are all the same correct? Also, when I pray which am I praying to or can I pray to either of the three or all three at the same time. I am a Christian and I should probably already know this stuff but I don't. Please help. Thank you. God bless.

Kory
Think of the Trinity as 3 attributes of one entity. They are not separate but one.

[Cris413]

It is very difficult in our limited understanding to fully grasp the concept of God in three persons. It's one of the many reasons we walk by faith and not by sight.

I have a tendency not to dwell on the how of the Trinity but find great comfort in a portion of the why of the Trinity.

To my knowledge there are no other gods of any religion that claim a "triunity" which, to me is just one of the many things that sets christianity apart from all other "religions"

How could we have a personal relationship with God if He were only an omnipotent being sitting high in the heavens far apart from us. - God the Father

How could we have a personal God if we thought He had no way to completely understand what it's like to be the creation (of course God understands everything). We would consider He would have no relatability with us. How could Holy God take the sin of the world upon Himself without becoming flesh - God the Son

How better to demonstrate His great and perfect love for us that He would come and dwell among us, in the flesh, to suffer and die for our sins that we through Him would have everlasting life, acceptable in His righteousness alone to be in His presence.

How could we have a personal relationship with God without the supernatural, spiritual indwelling - God The Holy Spirit - to teach, guide, deepen and grow in our relationship with Him. The Holy Spirit to equip and empower us, in Him, for His good will and puprose.

All three aspects (persons) of One God that makes our God personal, present and everlasting.

How awesome is our God!

[DeanM]

You have to remember that the words in the bible are very old. The analogies are designed to make sense to the people at that time. People back then had a hard time understanding that seemingly different things are actually the same things in different forms.

Look at water. It can be liquid water, or solid ice, or gaseous steam. Molecularly, it's all the same. But try to use an analogy of molecules 2 thousand years ago, and you run into problems. Instead, water would have to be described as three things. Liquid water quenches your thirst. Ice allows you to walk across the lake. Steam can burn your skin.

It's all the same thing, but described in a way that people would be able to understand it back then.

Likewise, the explanation of God was split up into three things so that people could make sense of it. This was done, not because God is three things, but because God exists in three forms; like water does.

(I'm not saying God is like water. I'm saying the explanation of each follows a parallel)

When you pray, you could simply pray to God.

The trinity only seems complicated because it was, at the time, the best way to look at the various forms of God. Nowadays, we understand that the same thing can be in different forms, which makes us wonder why anyone bothered to describe God in this fashion.

Look at the first line of the Nicean Creed:
"I believe in one God."

There's all ya need to know.

Everything else (in terms of the descriptions of God's three forms) is designed for people of a different age and level of understanding.

I try not to get caught up in it.

There's one God. I pray to God.

Blessings

[DavidPresently]

You have to remember that the words in the bible are very old. The analogies are designed to make sense to the people at that time. People back then had a hard time understanding that seemingly different things are actually the same things in different forms.

Look at water. It can be liquid water, or solid ice, or gaseous steam. Molecularly, it's all the same. But try to use an analogy of molecules 2 thousand years ago, and you run into problems. Instead, water would have to be described as three things. Liquid water quenches your thirst. Ice allows you to walk across the lake. Steam can burn your skin.

It's all the same thing, but described in a way that people would be able to understand it back then.

Likewise, the explanation of God was split up into three things so that people could make sense of it. This was done, not because God is three things, but because God exists in three forms; like water does.

(I'm not saying God is like water. I'm saying the explanation of each follows a parallel)

When you pray, you could simply pray to God.

The trinity only seems complicated because it was, at the time, the best way to look at the various forms of God. Nowadays, we understand that the same thing can be in different forms, which makes us wonder why anyone bothered to describe God in this fashion.

Look at the first line of the Nicean Creed:
"I believe in one God."

There's all ya need to know.

Everything else (in terms of the descriptions of God's three forms) is designed for people of a different age and level of understanding.

I try not to get caught up in it.

There's one God. I pray to God.

Blessings

I certainly agree with a personal relationship with God through the work of the cross being most important, regardless of our head knowledge. This is often my admonish to others getting hung up (struggling over) head knowledge confusion. I agree in exhorting the OP here along these lines.

I also for a long time had the exact 1 God 3 manifestations view until I was slightly corrected. It isn't most important that we understand how they work together as one God/Elohim, it is important we know the Way by faith, and follow him daily. So, I don't desire to correct anything you said about God in three persons or debate that.

However, I must respectfully disagree with the dishonoring of the Scriptures that came in your post, in a nut shell, calling such outdated old words for a people back then, but not for us today.

Beware of high-mindedness. The Scriptures are every bit as valid today as they ever have been, and there is something for us to learn from every single word and jot and tittle. We are even told that God sovereignly chose the Hebrews to give the Scriptures through, and their language he gave them. If you want to be great, and not least in the Kingdom, I admonish you get on board with this by faith.

I usually see such responses when someone does not want the Scriptures correcting their preconceived ideas about something. I'm not saying you are doing this - but check anyway with your Lord and Savior. Because if we will just judge ourselves before him, humbly, we will not be judged, as Paul said.

This is what I mean by saying, none of the Scriptures are old or invalid for us today (such is a lie that has been accepted by many though), but every part is valid to teach us something about God and his Kingdom. If not, those believing such can just start ripping out the pages in their Bible that are invalid, as they don't need all 66 books we have now, or more for Catholics.

Matthew 5:17-19 MKJV Do not think that I have come to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I have not come to destroy but to fulfill. (18) For truly I say to you, Till the heaven and the earth pass away, not one jot or one tittle shall in any way pass from the Law until all is fulfilled. (19) Therefore whoever shall relax one of these commandments, the least, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of Heaven. But whoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of Heaven.

Jesus clearly states, with no apologies to those who would disagree then, or now, that he didn't come to do away with any of his own Word. He came to fulfill, and show us the proper Way to live accordingly. He warns those who will do away with any part and teach others likewise, that their reward, or punishment rather, will be that they'll be least in the Kingdom (least rewarded). He admonishes those who will practice and teach such that they shall be greatest in the Kingdom.

Do you believe his words, or are those outdated, too?

If I've misunderstood how you were speaking in regard to the Scriptures, and you were not meaning to dishonor such and prop up your own knowledge over them, then please, just explain and be accountable. This is written to you as a gentle correction and admonishment to do right, in love, with no condemnation. I hope you receive it so, with all humility, and don't think I'm trying to pick a fight.

Your servant in Messiah,

David

[Floatingaxe]

You seem to have the basic concept of the Trinity. Is the problem just that you are having trouble wrapping your mind around separate and yet the same?

If that's the case then, sadly, there isn't a whole lot another person can do to help clarify. It's one of those things that you have to keep stretching your brain at until suddenly, it fits. It might help to study Hinduism a bit and try to understand how their mythology works. After that, the Trinity is downright easy!

What it comes down to is, they, as the Three, compose the One, but the One is more than just an organization of three entities. They are three manifestations of the same diety.


Study what? :doh: :eek: :swoon:

[DeanM]

I certainly agree with a personal relationship with God through the work of the cross being most important, regardless of our head knowledge. This is often my admonish to others getting hung up (struggling over) head knowledge confusion. I agree in exhorting the OP here along these lines.

I also for a long time had the exact 1 God 3 manifestations view until I was slightly corrected. It isn't most important that we understand how they work together as one God/Elohim, it is important we know the Way by faith, and follow him daily. So, I don't desire to correct anything you said about God in three persons or debate that.

However, I must respectfully disagree with the dishonoring of the Scriptures that came in your post, in a nut shell, calling such outdated old words for a people back then, but not for us today.

Beware of high-mindedness. The Scriptures are every bit as valid today as they ever have been, and there is something for us to learn from every single word and jot and tittle. We are even told that God sovereignly chose the Hebrews to give the Scriptures through, and their language he gave them. If you want to be great, and not least in the Kingdom, I admonish you get on board with this by faith.

I usually see such responses when someone does not want the Scriptures correcting their preconceived ideas about something. I'm not saying you are doing this - but check anyway with your Lord and Savior. Because if we will just judge ourselves before him, humbly, we will not be judged, as Paul said.

This is what I mean by saying, none of the Scriptures are old or invalid for us today (such is a lie that has been accepted by many though), but every part is valid to teach us something about God and his Kingdom. If not, those believing such can just start ripping out the pages in their Bible that are invalid, as they don't need all 66 books we have now, or more for Catholics.

Matthew 5:17-19 MKJV Do not think that I have come to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I have not come to destroy but to fulfill. (18) For truly I say to you, Till the heaven and the earth pass away, not one jot or one tittle shall in any way pass from the Law until all is fulfilled. (19) Therefore whoever shall relax one of these commandments, the least, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of Heaven. But whoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of Heaven.

Jesus clearly states, with no apologies to those who would disagree then, or now, that he didn't come to do away with any of his own Word. He came to fulfill, and show us the proper Way to live accordingly. He warns those who will do away with any part and teach others likewise, that their reward, or punishment rather, will be that they'll be least in the Kingdom (least rewarded). He admonishes those who will practice and teach such that they shall be greatest in the Kingdom.

Do you believe his words, or are those outdated, too?

If I've misunderstood how you were speaking in regard to the Scriptures, and you were not meaning to dishonor such and prop up your own knowledge over them, then please, just explain and be accountable. This is written to you as a gentle correction and admonishment to do right, in love, with no condemnation. I hope you receive it so, with all humility, and don't think I'm trying to pick a fight.

Your servant in Messiah,

David
Hi David,

If I came across as seeming like I was trying to discredit scripture, i apologise.

I believe you are refering to my statement: "You have to remember that the words in the bible are very old."

I think this is true. Old does not mean without value. It means written long ago.

I also said:

"The analogies are designed to make sense to the people at that time. People back then had a hard time understanding that seemingly different things are actually the same things in different forms."

Here, i am stating my opinion that people back then did not have a working knowledge of atomic physics, and that the analogy of God's trinity and the states of water would not have made sense to them. I believe that this is a fair statement.

I don't believe that I said anything that tries to devalue the scripture. I merely am trying to provide an analogy that helps me make sense of the trinity. And the fact this analogy could not have been used in the bible, because of when it was written.

I hope this makes sense. I really do not want to come across as devaluing scripture.

Blessings

[jive4005]

I think Dean certainly make his points without any wrong motives or intent. At least I don't hear any. If we all had to post in entirty we'd never get off-line.

I understand the strong feelings involved and the desire to make sure people "get it!"... that the Bible is indeed PERFECT. It is.
Dean expresses well (at least to me) the point of God speaking to people on their own level.

[DavidPresently]

Hi David,

If I came across as seeming like I was trying to discredit scripture, i apologise.

I believe you are refering to my statement: "You have to remember that the words in the bible are very old."

I think this is true. Old does not mean without value. It means written long ago.

I also said:

"The analogies are designed to make sense to the people at that time. People back then had a hard time understanding that seemingly different things are actually the same things in different forms."

Here, i am stating my opinion that people back then did not have a working knowledge of atomic physics, and that the analogy of God's trinity and the states of water would not have made sense to them. I believe that this is a fair statement.

I don't believe that I said anything that tries to devalue the scripture. I merely am trying to provide an analogy that helps me make sense of the trinity. And the fact this analogy could not have been used in the bible, because of when it was written.

I hope this makes sense. I really do not want to come across as devaluing scripture.

Blessings

Many thanks for your clarification! I so still believe the analogies and types and shadows are very valid for us to learn by, and we do well to do so.

You may not be aware of this, so I offer this as something maybe you can look into and get excited about, concerning just how relevant the analogies of the Scriptures are, in the Hebrew mindset (in the Greco-Roman mindset much gets lost in translation as I said), concerning modern science.

Genesis 1, in the ancient Hebrew wording, does speak of the different states of matter, and atomic science. These three things are spoken of in the Hebrew - solid, liquid, gas. Also, Paul speaks of the things visible to us, being formed out of the things not visible. Modern science has proven this true that atomic particles, unseen to us, do indeed make up the seen things.

Though the ancients may or may not have had such scientific knowledge, the Word certainly did.

In the Hebrew Scriptures, there is much more in there with depth of meaning than meets the eyes. Part of the reason when we miss this is that we don't study the Hebrew language and mindset of the fathers of faith, who were chosen, and their language chosen, to convey the foundation of the message of God to all mankind.

Another thing even more important is obviously revelation from the Holy Spirit to the believer, concerning things in the Scriptures.

So, I think you may be excited to study out in Genesis 1 and find out that more knowledge now proven true by science is stated there in the Hebrew than most have realized, if one looks into the original Hebrew, as the English looses things in translation.

Genesis 1:6-10 MKJV And God said, Let there be an expanse in the middle of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. (7) And God made the expanse, and divided the waters which were under the expanse from the waters which were above the expanse; and it was so. (8) And God called the expanse, Heavens. And the evening and the morning were the second day. (9) And God said, Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together to one place, and let the dry land appear; and it was so. (10) And God called the dry land, Earth. And He called the gathering together of the waters, Seas. And God saw that it was good.

Waters: Hebrew word is mayim.

In modern Hebrew this simply means "waters." In ancient Hebrew there is a deeper richness of meaning that has been lost.

The letters are Mem, Yad, Mem (MYM). Mem is a pictogram in ancient Hebrew of waves of water. The meaning other than simply "water" can be chaos (tossed to and from like James said), mighty (like rivers of living water), or blood (such as atones for sins).

The ancient Hebrew concept of water was "that which flows." That is, mem (water) meant, what flows, not just water - any liquid, including blood that flows from the body.

Yad is a pictogram of an arm with a closed (grasping) hand and means usually in practical terms, work, throw, or worship. This is also the first letter in the name "Yahuah" or "Jehovah" as most pronounce it. MYM thus gives the significance of the great hand of "Jehovah" in the MIDST of the waters (flowing things), even as we see examples such as the parting of the Red Sea, in type and shadow. That is MYM is WatersYahWaters, as we see in types and shadows used in the Scriptures such as "living waters" and such as "former and latter rains," etc, with the Spirit of God in the MIDST of those "waters." The depth of meaning here in the Hebrew should be something we can get excited about, concerning just how awesome the revelation of the Scriptures, inspired by the Spirit, actually are, though we haven't found the bottom of their depths yet.

By the way, I think this is a good reason for God choosing Hebrew, not English or something, to lay the foundation of faith Scriptures (OT) through the Hebrew prophets, as the Hebrew language is much richer in this way of symbolizing great and deep truths, whereas English is a mutt language made up of words from many other languages, including Hebrew, Greek, Latin (lots of Latin), German, etc.

Heavens: Hebrew is shamayim. The letters are Shin, Mem, Yad, Mem. SMYM. You may have already noticed that this is mayim with the addition of Shin, so we don't need to cover the mayim part, just the Shin addition, and its meaning.

Shin is a pictogram of front teeth, and can practically mean, sharp, press, eat, or two. We are not speaking about practical things, but figurative things, even "heavenly" things here, so what can two front teeth have to do with being added to mayim (waters, flowing things) to make "the heavens?"

First, say "shhhhh," the sound of the letter Shin, and you have the sound of breath passing from your mouth to the outside world. Spirit in Hebrew is Ruach and literally means Breath or Wind, like in Acts 2 "a Mighty Rushing Wind." Which sounds like "shhhhhhh."

See, the gases, air, heavens, or LOFTY things, are much like the waters/liquids, in that they flow, even more freely than the liquids, due to this added ingredient of "shhhhhh," the "Mighty Rushing Wind," aka Holy Spirit.

Unlike modern science, the ancient Hebrew statements here include God as the cause and sustainer of all these things, instead of trying to get rid of him. They saw God active in all, liquids, gases, and anything else, and their language is structured to reveal this God they knew.

Earth: The Hebrew is Erets. The letters are Alef, Rosh, and Tsad. ARTs. Alef is also the first letter in El and Eloah and Elohim. Alef is the pictogram of the head of an ox, meaning strong, power, and or leader. It is also the first letter of the alef-bet in Hebrew, which is what Jesus called himself in the Hebrew tongue, "I am the Alef and the Taw (last letter)." Meaning he is the Word, totally, from beginning to end (In the beginning was the Word...). The Alef-Taw is actually found in Genesis 1, by the way, which John expounds on in John 1, though most don't realize it is there in Genesis 1 in the Hebrew, because the English translations don't mention it, even in footnotes.

Rosh is a pictogram of the head of a man and means, first, top, or beginning. So, the first two letters in Erets both have similar meanings, one being the head of the ox, and the other the head of a man. I tell you a mystery, read Ezekiel 1 and you will see that the earthly side of the working is that of the face of the ox (earthly labor), and the face of the man (earthly relationships).

Tsad is a pictogram of man on his side (as in lying down on a firm foundation). It means, wait, chase, snare, and or hunt. "Wait on the Lord" comes to mind for me, and "Those who wait on the Lord shall renew their strength."

We could then have Alef speaking of the First, the Word, "firstborn of all creation," as Paul said, through whom all things are made, and then have the Rosh as the head of man (first Adam) who came first, in the beginning to earth, and then the Tsad meaning, he was made to "lie down in green pastures" on the earth to "wait on the Lord" and renew his strength. That is, to wait on the Lord's salvation for mankind, which comes from the cornerstone of the solid foundation he rests on while waiting, the Alpha and Omega, that is, the Alef and the Taw, the Word from the beginning, blessed be his name!

The meaning of this "Erets" in context, not letter by letter in the deeper meaning, but by definition in the superficial meaning, the Kingdom gospel account I mentioned aside, is that Erets means the solid or FIRM things. Even the foundation, as in "the foundations of the deep." We trust the earth is founded on the firm foundation and we can wait on it confidently.

Anyway, not only is the richness of the Gospel message in the Hebrew lettering of that language, but also the scientific knowledge of that which flows (liquids) and that which is lofty (floats, gases), and that which is firm foundation (solids) are all present in that short little quote from Genesis I posted here.

What wonders and deep riches are in the Law of God, which includes Genesis, which is what the psalmist spoke of in 119. HalleluYah!

Understanding the Gospel more fully requires we also understand the foundational understandings from Hebrew in Genesis and elsewhere, which is why John referred us back to this to start with in the beginning of his gospel account.

Think about it - and be blessed accordingly to know God and his plan better!

Yours in Messiah,

David