Questions about hell

[Don5925]

I have been reading a bit about the Orthodox concept of hell and it generated questions. Am right in understanding that hell is somewhat a temporary assignment, at least until the second coming?

Will hell 'close' at the end times?

Is this somewhat analogous to purgatory in that it provides a mechanism for assistance to those have passed without sending them to a scripturally undefined place?

:scratch:

Thanks in advance for any insight.

[_Shannon_]

I think it's rather that from one's particular judgement until the General Judgement that a soul receives a foretaste of their punishments or rewards that they will experience in full after the Second Coming.

[WarriorAngel]

:scratch:

Hell is not permanent?
Or it is not met until after the second coming?

[RobNJ]

Hell is to be avoided!

[buzuxi02]

Hell (gehenna fire) is the place reserved for Death, Satan and the very evil AFTER the second coming.

Orthodoxy does not speak of Hell but of Hades. The more you sin the further your seperation from God who is light and deeper into darkness you are.

Its all the same place but degrees of seperation.

[xristos.anesti]

I have been reading a bit about the Orthodox concept of hell and it generated questions. Am right in understanding that hell is somewhat a temporary assignment, at least until the second coming?

Will hell 'close' at the end times?

Is this somewhat analogous to purgatory in that it provides a mechanism for assistance to those have passed without sending them to a scripturally undefined place?

:scratch:

Thanks in advance for any insight.

The straight-forward answer is that hell is permanent – this is according to the Scriptures.

I think that anyone can see that from what the Lord our God said in (i.e.) Mt. 25, 46.

So, speaking from the point of pure and simple dogmatics – Lord said everlasting, therefore it is everlasting.

Also, I am not sure where and how did you get that the hell is somehow temporary; that is, temporary to the period until the advent – it is not – there shall be hell (HADES) after this point in time.

There are some who ask questions of hell from a physical aspect of time.

Will the time exist after the Second Coming, thus will the existence of hell be in time – or out of time (beyond time) and what will this mean – in this sense.

Regardless of these issues, the “feature” of Hades is eternal in a way that from what is revealed to us right now – the hell is permanent, forever and ever in time or out of it, with time or beyond it.

Many years.

[Don5925]

OK, thanks. I guess my question ultimately is prayers offered for the departed are offered to help them out of where/what? Or am I mistake that OC offers prayers for the departed? I am trying to understand the OC's approach to this. Thanks again.

[Ioan cel Nou]

OK, thanks. I guess my question ultimately is prayers offered for the departed are offered to help them out of where/what? Or am I mistake that OC offers prayers for the departed? I am trying to understand the OC's approach to this. Thanks again.
Yes, we have prayers for the departed and no it's not to get them out of purgatory (which is obviously what you're getting at), not even by another name. I'd say that we don't pray for them to get 'out' of anywhere, but rather for the forgiveness of God and that they might be reconciled to Him. There simply is no necessity to envisage this as praying them 'out' of anywhere at all.

In Orthodox belief the dead don't go immediately to heaven or hell after the particular judgement but get a foretaste of it, as has already been said by others above. Only at the Last Judgement does it become permanent, so to speak.

James

[Don5925]

Now I get it. I wasn't looking for an argument over purgatory, just trying to get the stance. Thanks. Don

[_Shannon_]

OK, thanks. I guess my question ultimately is prayers offered for the departed are offered to help them out of where/what? Or am I mistake that OC offers prayers for the departed? I am trying to understand the OC's approach to this. Thanks again.
I don't know if this is the Ortodox viewpoint or no-- but I always viewed it that prayers are outside of time. Therefore our prayers now change the cosmos for all time and perhaps allows a person to repent and be saved at the moment of death or in some other un-understandable way.

Another thing about praying for the dead-- is that it changes us, it allows us to live with the reality of death.

Again I don't know if my view is Orthodox or not...

[xristos.anesti]

We pray for the departed for it is proper and right, for in God all are alive as God is not God of the dead but of alive. And hoping always in immeasurable mercy of the All-merciful we, as sickly and evil as we are - pray for the many mercies of God.

It is a mystery of God and faith in him, for He said that should we have even little faith we would say to the mountain to move and it would – so, that being so unreasonable and impossible being made reasonable and possible by the word of the Word (Logos) we, hoping in the mercy, pray for those who went before us praying with those who went before us – for that is unreasonable too, but it was made reasonable by our faith.

And the blessed Apostle said that what is taught is stumbling block to the Jews and madness to the Greeks, meaning – this faith ours is a little bit crazy, for God’s love for us made everything crazy.

I speak not with disrespect but out of love for Him.

We were created for the communion with God and in the first moment of exercising our free will we said to God that we choose the lie and not Him, so we fell. The smart thing was to let us be, for having made our choice we deserved our consequence – the salary of the decision underneath the tree now left to be received.

But, God being loving God did an illogical thing out of Divine Love – and even we, the fallen – being however created as an icon of God know about things done out of love - it is not smart that a father or a mother shall give their life for their child – nor a husband for his wife…

So, God came and died so that everything can be re-created.


It is illogical, that one would give their life for someone else – and the Lord says that one might give his life for a good person – but how crazy is to give a life for an evil man, how much crazier is it that God shall give His life for us. God loves us – and love is often illogical.

And if you doubt me, look what the smart of this world speak about people who believe – we are certifiably crazy.

Anyhow, we all hope in things crazy and illogical, unreasonable and impossible. Out of faith and in love we pray to God for the living and the departed – for why not do it?

If God is the God of the impossible, then one more thing that is impossible - that we pray for, among myriads of other impossible things – won’t hurt.

It is an experience of the Church that impossible things happen thus we pray for them.

Now, a righteous man can say that we should not pray for the dead for they do not deserve a thing – for they had their chance and did not use it.

O’ what a blasphemy is that? And what did you – o’ righteous man deserve?

It is good to pray for the dead – for if one can pray for alive then one can “expect” something to happen, but when you pray for the dead then your faith is blind – and blind faith is the faith that see.

For even Christ on that Friday went and preached to the spirits in the prison – so if He went and spoke to those – we pray for these – having hope and with faith.

[WarriorAngel]

Hell (gehenna fire) is the place reserved for Death, Satan and the very evil AFTER the second coming.

Orthodoxy does not speak of Hell but of Hades. The more you sin the further your seperation from God who is light and deeper into darkness you are.

Its all the same place but degrees of seperation.

SO basically, there is a hell, but no one goes until after the second coming?

Interesting. I don't see how that works. :scratch: then again I am used to the mystical writings of Saints who saw hell and said many are there now.

But maybe I misunderstood you. It becomes a place for satan and the very evil after the second coming?
IE, they are free to roam until after the second coming?

Did any EO Saint while alive ever experience the mystical apparitions? And can you give me something to read. :wave: I am a Saint junky.:thumbsup:

[Kristos]

Paradise and Hell will be twofold in nature, spiritual and physical. At present, because the body is still in the grave, both the reward and the punishment are spiritual. Therefore, we speak of Hades (i.e., the place of the souls of the dead) because, as such, Hell (i.e., the place of everlasting spiritual and physical torment) has not yet commenced. Hades was despoiled by our Saviour by His descent to there and by His Resurrection, but Hell, on the contrary, shall be eternal. In that day, Christ shall say unto those on the left, "Depart from Me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the Devil and his angels" (Matt. 25:41). This is attested to in the Gospels by the demons also, in the miracle of the healing of the demoniac who lived in the district of the Gadarenes. For, at the approach of our Saviour, the demons cried out, "What have we to do with Thee, Jesus, Thou Son of God? Art Thou come hither to torment us before the time?" Thus, they are not yet in Hell, but they do know that a Day has been appointed when Hell shall commence. Hades should not be confused with the RCC concept of Purgatory - they are different. Never the less, as the Scriptures attest, that the prayers and fasts made by the living for the sake of the dead have a beneficial effect on the souls of the dead and upon us, and that even the souls that are in darkness are benefited by our prayers and fasts.

[NyssaTheHobbit]

You want stuff to read? I have a bunch of links here, along with quotes from research I've done: http://webpages.charter.net/nyssacugan/cgn_000015.htm

We pray for the departed for it is proper and right, for in God all are alive as God is not God of the dead but of alive. And hoping always in immeasurable mercy of the All-merciful we, as sickly and evil as we are - pray for the many mercies of God.

It is a mystery of God and faith in him, for He said that should we have even little faith we would say to the mountain to move and it would – so, that being so unreasonable and impossible being made reasonable and possible by the word of the Word (Logos) we, hoping in the mercy, pray for those who went before us praying with those who went before us – for that is unreasonable too, but it was made reasonable by our faith.

And the blessed Apostle said that what is taught is stumbling block to the Jews and madness to the Greeks, meaning – this faith ours is a little bit crazy, for God’s love for us made everything crazy.

I speak not with disrespect but out of love for Him.

We were created for the communion with God and in the first moment of exercising our free will we said to God that we choose the lie and not Him, so we fell. The smart thing was to let us be, for having made our choice we deserved our consequence – the salary of the decision underneath the tree now left to be received.

But, God being loving God did an illogical thing out of Divine Love – and even we, the fallen – being however created as an icon of God know about things done out of love - it is not smart that a father or a mother shall give their life for their child – nor a husband for his wife…

So, God came and died so that everything can be re-created.


It is illogical, that one would give their life for someone else – and the Lord says that one might give his life for a good person – but how crazy is to give a life for an evil man, how much crazier is it that God shall give His life for us. God loves us – and love is often illogical.

And if you doubt me, look what the smart of this world speak about people who believe – we are certifiably crazy.

Anyhow, we all hope in things crazy and illogical, unreasonable and impossible. Out of faith and in love we pray to God for the living and the departed – for why not do it?

If God is the God of the impossible, then one more thing that is impossible - that we pray for, among myriads of other impossible things – won’t hurt.

It is an experience of the Church that impossible things happen thus we pray for them.

Now, a righteous man can say that we should not pray for the dead for they do not deserve a thing – for they had their chance and did not use it.

O’ what a blasphemy is that? And what did you – o’ righteous man deserve?

It is good to pray for the dead – for if one can pray for alive then one can “expect” something to happen, but when you pray for the dead then your faith is blind – and blind faith is the faith that see.

For even Christ on that Friday went and preached to the spirits in the prison – so if He went and spoke to those – we pray for these – having hope and with faith.

:amen:

[SeraphimSarov]

It is good to pray for the dead – for if one can pray for alive then one can “expect” something to happen, but when you pray for the dead then your faith is blind – and blind faith is the faith that see.

:amen::amen::amen:

I am putting that in my signature if you have no objections!

[michaeldimmickjr]

Hell (gehenna fire) is the place reserved for Death, Satan and the very evil AFTER the second coming.

Orthodoxy does not speak of Hell but of Hades. The more you sin the further your seperation from God who is light and deeper into darkness you are.

Its all the same place but degrees of seperation.

this is not what i have been taught. possibly i am wrong, but i need to clear this up...

there can be no separation from God. regardless if we are in "heaven" or "hell" we will be so in His presence.

is that wrong?

and the more you sin the more you are separated? what about the sacrament of penance? what would be the point of confessing your sins and your priest telling you to forget them and move on? to me that cancels out any type of "running sin total..."

i am not trying to debate... i only want to know what we believe.

in IC XC,
michael

[NyssaTheHobbit]

I'd say, go with what your priest told you. :)

[Xpycoctomos]

I don't know if this is the Ortodox viewpoint or no-- but I always viewed it that prayers are outside of time. Therefore our prayers now change the cosmos for all time and perhaps allows a person to repent and be saved at the moment of death or in some other un-understandable way.

Another thing about praying for the dead-- is that it changes us, it allows us to live with the reality of death.

Again I don't know if my view is Orthodox or not...
This is how I understand it. If you're wrong... I'm wrong along with you and will benefit just as much from any correction (I haven't read past your post yet).

John

[buzuxi02]

this is not what i have been taught. possibly i am wrong, but i need to clear this up...

there can be no separation from God. regardless if we are in "heaven" or "hell" we will be so in His presence.

is that wrong?

and the more you sin the more you are separated? what about the sacrament of penance? what would be the point of confessing your sins and your priest telling you to forget them and move on? to me that cancels out any type of "running sin total..."

i am not trying to debate... i only want to know what we believe.

in IC XC,
michael

God is omnipresent. And holy people are closer to God than sinners. "Hamartia" (greek for sin) means missing the mark. The mark of holiness. The further you miss the mark the further is your seperation from God. God is Light but the truly evil will be in outer darkness. Another words they will be so distant from God, the Source of Light.

Read the parable of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16.19-31 with emphasis on verse 26.

Many people think that everyone is "equal" in heaven this is not true. An average joe will not inherit the same treasures and rewards as a mother Theresa etc. (see matthew 11.11, 18.1-4).
And a nominally evil person will not inherit equal torment as Hitler.

[WarriorAngel]

I think I will look up the theology of the EO on hell.

I am really confused now. :hug: God Bless.

[OrthoCanuck]

I think I will look up the theology of the EO on hell.

I am really confused now. :hug: God Bless.
Perhaps it is because we don't know exactly what hell will be like. It is a mystery that all of us will one day find out about (whether we end up there or not). We don't have hard and rigid definitions on a lot of our theology. It allows for variety of opinions and for mystery.

I'm starting to wonder if some RCs (NOT directed at anyone in particular) keep having a difficult time with Orthodoxy because they are used to things being spelled out for them in almost every detail (almost to the point of being defined to death)?

As for hell there are opinions ranging from the subjective view (eg. God's love will be like hell to some and heaven to others), to more familiar views (such as fire and brimstone, etc.).

The final point is that it sucks and I don't want to be there. Lord, have mercy!



Peace.



PS. http://www.philthompson.net/pages/library/riveroffire.html "River of Fire" is a good read for one perspective on hell. It is a perspective that many people in my parish believe.

[Xpycoctomos]

Perhaps it is because we don't know exactly what hell will be like. It is a mystery that all of us will one day find out about (whether we end up there or not). We don't have hard and rigid definitions on a lot of our theology. It allows for variety of opinions and for mystery.

I'm starting to wonder if some RCs (NOT directed at anyone in particular) keep having a difficult time with Orthodoxy because they are used to things being spelled out for them in almost every detail (almost to the point of being defined to death)?

As for hell there are opinions ranging from the subjective view (eg. God's love will be like hell to some and heaven to others), to more familiar views (such as fire and brimstone, etc.).

The final point is that it sucks and I don't want to be there. Lord, have mercy!



Peace.

Great post, especially the last two paragraphs because the first bolded one shows that there is mroe than one point of view of hell among the Church Fathers and the second (and last posted here) becuase... it's probalby all that needs to be said on the issue in all reality)

John

PS: I took out your PS only because I have yet to read the book although I have heard only good things about it.

[Don5925]

I don't feel bad about being confused and starting this thread, although the last has helped the most. I am glad of all the input. Some may have thought I was out to pick at 'purgatoryesqe' issues between our Church. Hopefully you all realize I was wanting the knowledge for knowledge sake.

As for the remark that the Catholic Church defines everything. . . Yeah. If you ask a question someone will pick up the Bible, or Catechism, or a Papal Bull and tell you the exact answer, and yes their will be an exact answer. Don't get me wrong, I'm not ready to play for another team but I can admit where I see a potential problem. That said, I have a deep respect for the EO Churches and my fervent hope is that we can all embrace our similarities and try to truly understand our differences.

Thanks again, Don

[NyssaTheHobbit]

As for the remark that the Catholic Church defines everything. . . Yeah. If you ask a question someone will pick up the Bible, or Catechism, or a Papal Bull and tell you the exact answer, and yes their will be an exact answer. Don't get me wrong, I'm not ready to play for another team but I can admit where I see a potential problem. That said, I have a deep respect for the EO Churches and my fervent hope is that we can all embrace our similarities and try to truly understand our differences.

That's exactly why I've had so much trouble researching Orthodoxy! I finally had to decide, is it or isn't it the continuation of the ancient Church, and dive in hoping my priest could clear things up.