Questions (moved from another thread)

[colinlindsay]

I presume that this forum believes at the very least that Christianity is Jewish.
I have some serious questions I'd like answering, please. I can't think where else to post.
First, if Christianity is Jewish how does this affect how we deal with the Bible (esp NT). Are there many instances where reformers and other Bible believers interpreted the NT wrongly?
What are MJ principles of hermeutics? How practically do they differ from the the grammatico-historical approach of the reformers?
Was the early church wrong to move away from Jerusalem as the centre of the faith?
Did Paul have unwarranted exposure to Greek forms of thought?
Did the chuch illegitimately use Greek philosophy to formulate its doctrine and practice?

Lastly, as an aside, I see that you 'make space' for non-trinitarians. Are they members of this forum? Can this be part of messianic Judaism? What is the difference between Messianic Christianity and Messianic Judaism? How do you do that?

[ContentInHim]

I presume that this forum believes at the very least that Christianity is Jewish.
I have some serious questions I'd like answering, please. I can't think where else to post.
First, if Christianity is Jewish how does this affect how we deal with the Bible (esp NT). Are there many instances where reformers and other Bible believers interpreted the NT wrongly?
What are MJ principles of hermeutics? How practically do they differ from the the grammatico-historical approach of the reformers?
Was the early church wrong to move away from Jerusalem as the centre of the faith?
Did Paul have unwarranted exposure to Greek forms of thought?
Did the chuch illegitimately use Greek philosophy to formulate its doctrine and practice?

Lastly, as an aside, I see that you 'make space' for non-trinitarians. Are they members of this forum? Can this be part of messianic Judaism? What is the difference between Messianic Christianity and Messianic Judaism? How do you do that?
Wonderful questions, Colin. I've asked the mods to make this it's own thread! :wave:

[LilLamb219]

These posts have been pulled from another thread as they were off-topic to that thread, but now the members of this forum can answer the questions here :)

[Sephania]

I presume that this forum believes at the very least that Christianity is Jewish.
I have some serious questions I'd like answering, please. I can't think where else to post.
First, if Christianity is Jewish how does this affect how we deal with the Bible (esp NT). Are there many instances where reformers and other Bible believers interpreted the NT wrongly?
What are MJ principles of hermeutics? How practically do they differ from the the grammatico-historical approach of the reformers?
Was the early church wrong to move away from Jerusalem as the centre of the faith?
Did Paul have unwarranted exposure to Greek forms of thought?
Did the chuch illegitimately use Greek philosophy to formulate its doctrine and practice?

Lastly, as an aside, I see that you 'make space' for non-trinitarians. Are they members of this forum? Can this be part of messianic Judaism? What is the difference between Messianic Christianity and Messianic Judaism? How do you do that?

I presume that this forum believes at the very least that Christianity is Jewish. This forum is made up of believers in many things, but I don't know of anyone here that would say that Christianity is Jewish.


I have some serious questions I'd like answering, please. I can't think where else to post. We welcome questions :)

First, if Christianity is Jewish how does this affect how we deal with the Bible (esp NT). See this is where an assumption is wrong. I am not sure what you mean by dealing with the Bible so could you explain more what you mean by that please?


Are there many instances where reformers and other Bible believers interpreted the NT wrongly? I have found that when the Jewish scriptures are separated from the acts of Yeshua and he himself is, there is very veiled understanding at least and at most, a whole different religion is formed.

What are MJ principles of hermeutics? depends on who you talk to, but I would say for the most part, the interpretation is seen through a Hebraic perspective, not a Romanized one.

How practically do they differ from the the grammatico-historical approach of the reformers? Give me some examples.

Was the early church wrong to move away from Jerusalem as the centre of the faith? Depends on who you see as the early 'church'. The Jewish believers stayed there until death or destruction came. Jerusalem is not the center of faith, Yeshua is. Jerusalem is his holy city, but our focus is to be on him, else we make that an idol even.


Did Paul have unwarranted exposure to Greek forms of thought? unwarrented? not sure what you mean by that. He was living in a Hellinized culture and was familiar with it enough to debate very well and expose the dangers.

Did the chuch illegitimately use Greek philosophy to formulate its doctrine and practice? I would have to say yes, and it still remains today. This is one of the biggest differences in Messianic Judaism and CHristianity, although I have seen many a Messianic congregation absorb these things in by the influx of too many gentiles.

Lastly, as an aside, I see that you 'make space' for non-trinitarians. Are they members of this forum? That is a unique term. First let me correct you and say that the forum members have no say in this, this is the legalities of the owner and those he has put in charge. It is all based on the registration agreement involving the Nicene Creed. We as members here do consider them members, but they are treated though like black sheep sometimes. ( like this thread was not opened as was the other one you posted this in so they can't reply)

Can this be part of messianic Judaism? Sorry, can what be?

What is the difference between Messianic Christianity and Messianic Judaism?
I don't believe in any Messianic Christianity, there are those who are considered Hebrew Christians, who are Jewish by birth but are in Christian churches and adopt the Christian points of view.

How do you do that? How do I do what?

Let me ask you a question, how do you stumble into our forum? Have you been searching for something?

Shalom to you

Keli Nivchar

[visionary]

I will give these questions a shot...I presume that this forum believes at the very least that Christianity is Jewish.Christ is Jewish. Christ's faith is Jewish.I have some serious questions I'd like answering, please. I can't think where else to post.I hope this opening up a thread just for your questions helps:wave:
First, if Christianity is Jewish how does this affect how we deal with the Bible (esp NT). If the Jewish writers of the NT are to be understood, it would make more sense to see from the jewish mindset. Are there many instances where reformers and other Bible believers interpreted the NT wrongly?Hey, it wouldn't be the first time, nor the last that us human's get it wrong. What are MJ principles of hermeutics? Sorry do not have an answer for you on this one. How practically do they differ from the the grammatico-historical approach of the reformers?I would say the best way to find out the neuonces of understanding from the hebrew approach is to check out the different subjects studied and conversed on. We do have a FAQ for those who want to get an over vbiew. Check it out. Was the early church wrong to move away from Jerusalem as the centre of the faith?In 70AD when the persecution was so ferocious, that Yeshua had warned to believers to flee when they see the abomination, it put an end to Jerusalem being the center of faith. But the day is coming when it will be restored to its original glory in purpose and in deed. Did Paul have unwarranted exposure to Greek forms of thought?Paul's exposure to the best of Jewish teachers of His time and the exposure to Yeshua in His glory, outshone any undesireable greek influence from penatrating Paul's mission. Greek interpretation in later years of his written words has effected the believer's understanding in ways that Paul never intended. Did the chuch illegitimately use Greek philosophy to formulate its doctrine and practice?If you find pagan rituals, doctrines that are in the church today, then you can say that.
Lastly, as an aside, I see that you 'make space' for non-trinitarians. Are they members of this forum? They were members but doctrinal authority of CF clarified what is acceptable for Messianic Judiasm section and so those who took a stand for what they believe are placed outside the Nicene Creed as understood by orthodox. They are not outside in our hearts and minds though. We love them all as brothers and sisters that they are. We try to have as many threads as possible open so that they may continue to participate. We do not like the way the situation is now, and wish that it was back the way it was before when they were allowed to with us. Can this be part of messianic Judaism? Non-trinitarians MJ's are MJ's in our eyes. What is the difference between Messianic Christianity and Messianic Judaism? I think that Keli Nivchar answered that very well for you. How do you do that?:scratch: Sorry, have no idea on this question.

[Athaliamum]

Long time, no post for me - but I'll give these a crack and hopefully can put them in a way that will satisfy your obvious deep "thinker" way of processing information. I believe you want logical and detailed answers - I do hope though this is not fishing for a debate, as has been done in the past under the guise of sincere question askinig.

I presume that this forum believes at the very least that Christianity is Jewish.
Christianity isn't Jewish - that's why it's got it's own name.
I think it is important to point out here that there is a big difference between the ethnic "Jewishness" as in the race of Jews and "Torah submissiveness" and faith. Being Jewish doesn't make people Torah submissive and being Torah submissive doesn't make someone Jewish. Unfortunately because race and faith have been ingrained as a mutual concept for such a long period of time it can be difficult to separate so that we may better understand things.

Christianity as a whole states that the death of Jesus/Yeshua negated God's Torah (note God gave Torah to the Jews, the Jews did not invent Torah). As the main premeis of Messianic Judaism is a belief in Yeshua and Torah, so they are not the same. We do however find common ground on the belief that Yeshua(Jesus) is savior and lord.

A quick synopsis of differences:

Judaism believes in Torah alone.
Christianity believes in Jesus alone.
Messianic Judaism believes that Jesus/Yeshua is Torah incarnate, so both are mutually inclusive and can not be separated.

First, ... how does this affect how we deal with the Bible (esp NT).
The bible was never meant to be read in "parts". We get to cheat these days with chapter and verse numbers - and cheating it is, cheating ourselves from a full understanding of it's concepts. A text without a context is a pretext and a pretext can be used to prove anything. The bible must be read in context. All of the bible is Torah, from Genesis to Revelation, and we can't pick it to pieces to suit ourselves. Unfortunately it is common "christian" practice is to separate the bible into parts, and out of sequence parts at that, because of it's "Torah is no longer applicable stance". So it must separate and remove the bible's text from it's context. The OT becomes a "for information on the past only" format - I am yet to understand this stance however as several of the books of prophecy are about the end days and have direct reference to Torah submissiveness.

Are there many instances where reformers and other Bible believers interpreted the NT wrongly?

I would say it is more to do with how individuals interpret and are taught as status quo how to interpret that is the issue. This is another context issue. Context not just only of the lines and paragraphs preceding a verse but the context of the person writing it and to the people he was writing it to and the culture they were a part of. This of course leads on to your next question....

What are MJ principles of hermeutics?

Context, consistancy and prayer

How practically do they differ from the the grammatico-historical approach of the reformers?

They require a lack of bias and self-serving motivations.

Was the early church wrong to move away from Jerusalem as the centre of the faith?

That one is a hard one. I wouldn't be quick to make a wrong or right call on that one.

I leave the rest of the questions for later.

[Kalanit]

Christianity is Hellenize. It is not Jewish.
The first believers in Yeshua were not Christians - they were Jews.

When the ruling body of believers moved away from being a Jewish sect and became Hellenized, dismissing and even altering aspects of scripture - yes, that was wrong. And the "Church" has suffered because of that mistake.

Rav Shaul (Paul) was a Hebrew Parush (Pharisee.) He was well educated and had Roman citizenship. (Just like a religious Jew can speak Hebrew and English, live in NY, and have US citizenship.) Shaul could speak to the Greeks - in fact, he was chosen to help them understand the whole Jewish concept of the Messiah - but he never abandoned his Jewish faith for a Gentile one. He stayed a Parush and was Torah observant the whole way through.

If you do a study on Greek thought VS. Hebrew thought you will find the two differ quite a bit. Both perspective have value. However, The Essence of faith in Messiah (as well as the context of scripture) is seen through Hebraic thought - because- it comes from the Hebrews. Would you try to read a Chinese manuscript using the German language, German culture, German thought process? It wouldn't make since - and if it were a religious text - erroneous doctrine would be a sure result.

The Brit Hadasha (NT) has been translated and read through a Greek view point. When read in Context, the Hebraic nature is clearly seen.

Non-Trins - I really don't know what their exact position is. Personally, I believe ha Shem has a Triune Nature. Sometimes, the way Christians verbalize that (or even believe) is that G-d is 3 different people. MJ's believe G-d is Echad - One. I see no contradiction in the One G-d, Creator, Ruler of the Universe, having multiple aspects of Himself... or revealing Himself in various ways. Ha Shem tells us He is One - and I know He doesn't like being put in a box - so, I let Him BE who He IS.

[Sephania]

One thing I would like to add for clarification about those who are deemed NON trinitarian Messianics on this forum. There are some ( not all) who bear the menorah that deny that Yeshua is G-d. Most all Messianics do agree on that , that Yeshua is G-d. Just for your edification if you are reading a post and see that Icon.

[colinlindsay]

Let me get at a practical example.
Take some parables. The "Pearl of Great Price" is traditionally taken to refer to the believer finding Christ or His Kingdom, and then giving up everything in order to get it.
Do MJs (along with other evangelicals) alternatively take the man walking in the field to be Christ and the Pearl to be Israel and selling everything to be His sacrifice on the cross.
I'm taking this as a practical example of how our hermeneutical presuppositions affect our interpretations.

[HaReb]

I would say the pearl is Y'shua, the field is the whole Jewish faith and the person who bought the field, who paid the price, is G_d (as Father) in sending his only begotten son to be the pearl in the field. For that field I would give everything, as G_d did. As Sha'ul says, I counted everything as loss to gain knowing Y'shua.

[colinlindsay]

Now we've got a third interpretation!
Is this inevitable with understanding the Bible "Sola Scriptura", each man or denomination finding his own understanding.
I was just HOPING that Jewish closeness to the whole project of Scripture might lay down the best principles for interpretation.

[ContentInHim]

Hi Colin,

I don't think Sola Scriptura is the problem if each man is looking to the Holy Spirit for interpretation. Isn't he our teacher today? And if his revelation to one is different than his revelation to another regarding a certain scripture, it might be that the differences are due to different levels of readiness. I'm thinking of the Good Samaritan which has a lovely surface meaning, but many many deeper meanings also!

As for Jewish interpretation, especially rabbinical, there are many methods for interpreting a single scripture, one of which is to take the exact antithesis of the clear meaning and argue from that point. :eek: That's not to say there there is not illumination in reading Midrash, etc. and I love doing so when studing the weekly Parasha, but for the believer it can not be the be all and end all of scriptural wisdom. :)

[colinlindsay]

< < As for Jewish interpretation, especially rabbinical, there are many methods for interpreting a single scripture, one of which is to take the exact antithesis of the clear meaning and argue from that point. :eek: That's not to say there there is not illumination in reading Midrash, etc. and I love doing so when studing the weekly Parasha, but for the believer it can not be the be all and end all of scriptural wisdom. :) > >
Could you give examples of how an interpretation of the NT using Midrash would be different to a typical reformers' vie? I've tried to use an example about the Pearl of Great Price where some dispensationalists have seen Israel as the pearl rather that the Kingdom of God/heaven.
Also the Rabbinical approach you mentioned. Taking the opposite? Why would you want to do that?

[ContentInHim]

< < As for Jewish interpretation, especially rabbinical, there are many methods for interpreting a single scripture, one of which is to take the exact antithesis of the clear meaning and argue from that point. :eek: That's not to say there there is not illumination in reading Midrash, etc. and I love doing so when studing the weekly Parasha, but for the believer it can not be the be all and end all of scriptural wisdom. :) > >
Could you give examples of how an interpretation of the NT using Midrash would be different to a typical reformers' vie? I've tried to use an example about the Pearl of Great Price where some dispensationalists have seen Israel as the pearl rather that the Kingdom of God/heaven.
Also the Rabbinical approach you mentioned. Taking the opposite? Why would you want to do that?
I'm not at my house and won't return for another month but if you remind me I will scare up my notes.

As for the opposite of the clear view - it's a mystery, is it not? Why would anyone do it? I haven't a clue and certainly can't consider it wisdom. I'm a pretty literal reader of scripture so I can't understand it either. :wave:

[colinlindsay]

Moriel Ministries describes itself as “a teaching ministry to believers that stresses the need to rediscover the scriptures as Hebraic literature (as opposed to Hellenistic literature),
demanding the hermeneutic models of Second Temple Period Judaism as a basis in biblical interpretation" http://www.moriel.org/moriel.htm (http://www.moriel.org/moriel.htm)

Is this just divisive arrogance? What does this mean in practice? Does it mean that we interpret parables differently?

[ContentInHim]

Hi Colin,

I didn't fully investigate the website you posted but will respond to the rest of your question.

I don't believe that viewing scripture from the Hebraic viewpoint is divisive arrogance - after all, Yeshua and his disciples were HEBREWS. They learned Hebrew scripture. They viewed their world as Hebrews. They also ended up viewing Yeshua as their Hebrew Messiah. Cornelius was humble enough to understand that HIS messiah was Hebrew.

[Steve Petersen]

http://www.capernauminstitute.com/

[HaReb]

I was just HOPING that Jewish closeness to the whole project of Scripture might lay down the best principles for interpretation

The best way to interpret Scripture is take the view that G_d provides it for a purpose - first off, we either accept that, or not. If there are parts we do not understand there are only two possibilities: either G_d made a mistake or we are wrong in our understanding. Which do you think is right?