And it begins

[Guineverelyndy]

My mom and I had a short discussion the other day about why I don't believe in Calvinism anymore. You would think I had just told her I am abandoning Christ or something, or that I had just grown two heads. She is insisting that I "just read this one book," which I am going to attempt to avoid without ever actually saying "no." ;)

She was most concerned that I don't believe in Total Depravity, although she was quick to point out that she thinks babies go to Heaven if they die. I asked her how they can go to Heaven if they have supposedly sinned since conception? She didn't have an answer for that.

We'll see what happens.

Yikes.

[Thekla]

Hey, GL -

not an easy position to be in :(
My experience with family was (mostly) pretty supportive - what a blessing !

I've been reading Ancestral Sin by Fr. Romanides - a huge chunk of differences can be traced to differences in understanding of this issue. It may not be in time for this discussion (with your mom) but could be helpful in the long run.

Just be honest ...

[Padraig]

My mom and I had a short discussion the other day about why I don't believe in Calvinism anymore. You would think I had just told her I am abandoning Christ or something, or that I had just grown two heads. She is insisting that I "just read this one book," which I am going to attempt to avoid without ever actually saying "no." ;)

She was most concerned that I don't believe in Total Depravity, although she was quick to point out that she thinks babies go to Heaven if they die. I asked her how they can go to Heaven if they have supposedly sinned since conception? She didn't have an answer for that.

We'll see what happens.

Yikes.
An all too common occurrence unfortunately. Most of us will have had similar experiences. Time will help. Don't make the mistake I made and try to convince them by argument. Let your light speak for you. Our prayers are with you during this transition.

Slainté,
Dn Kevin

[Monica, child of God]

I am a former Calvinist and my husband still is. It is hard. We are both Christians but sometimes we both feel that the other pratices a totally different religion :(

M.

[SeraphimSarov]

You would think I had just told her I am abandoning Christ or something, or that I had just grown two heads.

I've heard that one before. Prayers going up. :crosseo:

[ClementofRome]

My story is not different from yours. PM me, if you like, and we can compare notes.

Forgive me.

Uncle Clem

PS....actually, you should "read the one book"....just with your new lenses.

[Jacob4707]

Just tell her that you were predestined to reject Calvinism and that since your mind is part of your total depravity, there is no way that logical arguments or the writings of men/women - who are also totally depraved and hence incapable of correctly explicating the truth - can get through to you, either because 1) you are too totally depraved to be able to understand what they are saying, or 2) their own total depravity makes anything they write veer from the truth. :D

Well, it's a thought....

[Guineverelyndy]

Thank you all for your prayers and encouragement - it's all much appreciated!

The difficulty for me is that my parents have worked so hard my entire life to teach me about God, and train me to actually love and obey Him. I don't want them to ever feel like I'm looking down on them, or that I don't respect their opinions. But honestly, looking back now, Calvinism just looks so freakin' bizarre! I still understand it intellectually but I keep wondering, "How did I think that?"

Another difficult thing is that I've not been quite myself lately. It's just been a major bout with depression, and Orthodoxy has really, really helped, but I'm sure all my parents see is that I'm not like myself and I'm getting involved in this other church that doesn't make sense to them. It probably looks linked in their eyes. I'm trying really hard to act in such a way that they'll see a difference, but there's only so much I can do.

[Orthocat]

Just tell her that you were predestined to reject Calvinism and that since your mind is part of your total depravity, there is no way that logical arguments or the writings of men/women - who are also totally depraved and hence incapable of correctly explicating the truth - can get through to you, either because 1) you are too totally depraved to be able to understand what they are saying, or 2) their own total depravity makes anything they write veer from the truth. :D

Well, it's a thought....


Bwaahaaaa!!!! ^_^


I love it!

That is the best answer I have ever heard!



aaah, Blessed Augustine and Mr. Calvin...what have you done? :sigh:

[FlyFast]

I've been through, and continue to have, these types of family issues. As you know, they can be very frustrating, stressful, and even depressing.
I agree with the earlier post, don't try to convince anyone by persuasive arguments. It is rarely helpful or productive.
I'll be praying for you.
Ignatios

[SeraphimSarov]

I agree with the earlier post, don't try to convince anyone by persuasive arguments. It is rarely helpful or productive.


Man oh man, is that ever the truth. Discussing beliefs and arguing them are two very different things, and the latter is usually far more destructive than helpful (according to my experience anyway).

[EmperorConstantine]

Wise man say "Live by example".

[Prawnik]

I am not now, nor have I ever been, nor have I any present intent of becoming a Calvinist, but "total depravity" does sound depressing and kind of pointless, since we aren't able to do anything at all right anyway, like puppets or playthings.

@Jacob: dratted repCops.

[MariaRegina]

My story is not different from yours. PM me, if you like, and we can compare notes.

Forgive me.

Uncle Clem

PS....actually, you should "read the one book"....just with your new lenses.

Good idea, Uncle Clem.

Perhaps you can read slowly from that book and quote the pregnant passages here at TAW. Then we can compare and contrast it with the Ancient Fathers. Finally when your mom asks about your readings you can give her the truth from the Orthodox perspective. Then maybe, just maybe, both of you will approach Orthodoxy together. Hey, it has happened.

But you must take this ever so slowly and try to find points of agreement too. The points of agreement will help her realize that we are not that weird. While the areas of disagreement can be pointed out to be strange teachings that are not consistant with Ancient Christianity.

[Guineverelyndy]

Thank you. All good suggestions. I might read the book, but then again I have a list of other things I would prefer to read before it. I guess I'll just continue on as I have been.

I had an interesting conversation with my brother on Sunday. I asked him how church was, and he didn't like it too much mostly because he doesn't like the worship team (I don't blame him). Anyway, we started talking about styles of worship and honestly, I was kind of blown away by the weight that personal preference had in determining which style of worship he wanted to practice. I cannot judge because I know I've done the same thing, but it really shocked me. I think I asked him shouldn't we be thinking about what God would prefer since worship is for Him? He disagreed that there is any form that God would prefer than another. I kind of got the feeling this was because he didn't want God to prefer one type over another, but I didn't say that. My brother, by the way, is not exactly a nominal Christian - he's very, very devoted to God. I think that's why this surprised me. He's not exactly into staying comfortable.

[Jacob4707]

My brother, by the way, is not exactly a nominal Christian - he's very, very devoted to God. I think that's why this surprised me. He's not exactly into staying comfortable.

It sounds like Orthodoxy is tailor-made for him, then - but he just doesn't know it yet! :)

My earlier post was a bit facetious, so please take it as being that. Prayer and no argumentative discussions is probably the best advice.

[Guineverelyndy]

It sounds like Orthodoxy is tailor-made for him, then - but he just doesn't know it yet! :)

My earlier post was a bit facetious, so please take it as being that. Prayer and no argumentative discussions is probably the best advice.
I figured it was facetious. :) And pretty funny!

[nikostheater]

I am probably the wrong person to give advice in situations like that,but i think that is nice NOT to push things and stuff...i think it is better to let things go naturally and hopefully to settle the things up..
And try to avoid conversations that they are recipe for frustration...

[27B6]

You have my prayers, Guineverelyndy.

And if you still feel like you are suffering from depression, even a little, I hope you see a doctor about it. A mental health professional can help you pinpoint the source of the sadness, whether physiological, psychological, or philosophical, and recommend ways to address it.