Secular music?

[Followers4christ]

Should we have a "Secular music" sub fourm on a "Christian" site? The secular music sub forum is for people to glorify bands like Marilyn Manson,Insane clown posse,Black sabbath and events like Ozzfest and the Warped tour.Both tours have a deep satanic message and Secular music is filled with sex,drugs,bad language and violence.Is this the sort of junk we should have on a Christian site? What are your thoughts on the subject? God Bless

[pgp_protector]

When you talk about "secular" are you meaning non-religious, or anti-religious ?

The normal use of secular would just be non-religious.

[pgp_protector]

Also I'd love for you to point out the Sex, Drugs, Bad language or violence in my "secular music" Cds
Beethovens' Symphony #9
The Best Of Babylon 5
Big Sur
Close Encounters Soundtrack
Galaxies
Kokopeli
Mozart Symphonies #40
Ocean Surf
The Romantic Classics
Star Wars Sound Track (1 & 2)
Time Warp
Universe Sampler 90
Xanadu

[Floatingaxe]

If music doesn't do what it was created to do--glorify God, :clap: then I have nothing to do with it---if I can. Kinda hard when you're shopping and they are piping in the junk.

[pgp_protector]

If music doesn't do what it was created to do--glorify God, :clap: then I have nothing to do with it---if I can. Kinda hard when you're shopping and they are piping in the junk.
So no happy birthday for you ?

[flod logic]

We'd better not talk about secular books or movies either.

[Floatingaxe]

So no happy birthday for you ?

Only if sung in a Godly way! ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ :P

[staveoffzombies]

Wait, so all music ever made has to be directly praising God for you to listen to it?

[Floatingaxe]

Wait, so all music ever made has to be directly praising God for you to listen to it?


Really? Yes. God created music to glorify Himself. I believe that is its purpose...always was, until the worship leader in Heaven, Lucifer, rebelled and took music and perverted it to glorify himself. We pawns buy into it.

[staveoffzombies]

Sooooo, if I listen to a song that has a positive message, or thought-provoking lyrics, yet they don't directly reference God in any way...then that would be Satanic influence?

[Anwar]

Sooooo, if I listen to a song that has a positive message, or thought-provoking lyrics, yet they don't directly reference God in any way...then that would be Satanic influence?
you jus said it yourself...if it doesnt glorify god...or at least packs some kind of message with a godly influence dont listen to it

[Zecryphon]

When you talk about "secular" are you meaning non-religious, or anti-religious ?

The normal use of secular would just be non-religious.
My feeling is that when the OP, who is most likely hyped up on Ron Luce's battle rhetoric, talks about secular music, he's referring to what Ron personally objects to. Look at the bands he's listed, these aren't just secular bands, these are bands that certain Christians have deemed satanic, but rarely ever are. How come musicians like Pink, U2, Aerosmith, Madonna, Snoop Dogg, Snow Patrol, etc. aren't listed?

Everything you listen to or hear has to be filtered through the written word of God and tested to see if it's glorifying to God. That includes Christian music today that is so popular. There is more that is damaging to a Christian in today's Christian music than you will ever find in anything by the band's listed above by the OP.

Personally I listen to heavy metal music and other secular music as well, while there are references to satan in a couple of the songs I listen to, it's not outright glorification of him. Alot of heavy metal music deals with themes other than the devil. It is probably the among the most intelligent and creative music out there.

Plus, another factoid the OP probably doesn't want you to know is that the "evil" heavy metal bands have Christians in them. Iron Maiden is one. The drummer Nicko McBrain became a born-again Christian in 2000. Their music has been influenced by his conversion to Christianity and is dealing with religion in a some of their more recent songs. What we as a Christian site have to stop doing is deciding for everyone else what is "Christian" and what is not based upon our own personal feelings. What happened to loving people where they're at? You don't want to listen to secular music, fine, don't. But don't make it into a pseudo-sin for others because it doesn't match up to your preconcieved notions of what is right according to you. Also, more bands than just the ones the OP has listed are discussed in that sub-forum, which is open to all people, not just Christians. That forum doesn't exist just for Black Sabbath, ICP and Ozzy and his music festival. This issue has already been dealt with, by CF. They put that sub-fourm in the area of this forum that is open to everyone. I think this guy is just trying to stir a pot that need not be stirred anymore.

[Edial]

Beatles wrote "All you need is love, taa-ta-ta-taa". :)

If I sing it with a transcending New Age understanding - one thing.

If I sing it with understanding that humanism is the answer to all - another thing.

If a little child sings it in innocence - yet another thing. :)

Just an opinion.

Thanks, :)
Ed

[Floatingaxe]

Sooooo, if I listen to a song that has a positive message, or thought-provoking lyrics, yet they don't directly reference God in any way...then that would be Satanic influence?


Well, who is doing the thought-provoking? Who is doing the creating of that music?

If it isn't anointed or created by the anointed, then I wouldn't trust the thoughts it generates. God can cause me to think on things I need to address without a secular message to initiate it. He is Lord, and He will direct me using His own delivery system to my mind and heart!

I have given control of my mind over to the Holy Spirit. He shows me what is right and good for me.

[MaidforHim]

Are we talking about a forum specificly for satanic music or one for secular music? Satanic music is not secular, satanist have a religion.

When I think secular music I think of any and all forms of music that are not about God or for worshipping Him.

That would include everything from Mary Had a Little Lamb to Row Row Row Your Boat ... Harry Chapins - Cats in the Cradle to John Denvers - Thank God I'm a Country Boy right on out to Black Sabbath and worse.

God made flowers I don't see anything wrong with someone singing about them.

He created love and I don't see anything wrong with a romantic love song ... or instrumental dance music or ???

I think music containing or glorifying sex, drugs and violence or disrespecting God are wrong for obvious reasons. Not all secular music contains these elements.

It is hard to listen to some secular stations for very long without hearing a song that not only contains sexual references but even graphic description. I hate that!

However, there are secular stations that don't play that trash and I don't see anything wrong with listening to songs about the lighter, more innocent or enjoyable sides of life. Life is a blessing and I think it's OK to enjoy it or sing about it in a wholesome way.

I think if CF wants to have a secular music forum that's great as long as their are some rules... like no profane, immoral or evil music discusion in a way that glorifies this type of music, sin or disrespect of God.

[sebastian]

I think this comes under "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling". for some it may be a problem to other not so. it's a well known fact that wesley took the tunes of drinking songs and put christian lyrics to them, how did he know the tune in the first place? Also how many worship songs do you know that has not been influenced by secular music, come to think of it, you do realise that the scales and keys we use in the west are of pre-christian ancient greek origin?

[Floatingaxe]

I think this comes under "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling". for some it may be a problem to other not so. it's a well known fact that wesley took the tunes of drinking songs and put christian lyrics to them, how did he know the tune in the first place? Also how many worship songs do you know that has not been influenced by secular music, come to think of it, you do realise that the scales and keys we use in the west are of pre-christian ancient greek origin?


Hmmm...music is a creation of God (not Greeks) for Himself and we are allowed to participate in it for His glory, His pleasure and our own blessing.

[sebastian]

Hmmm...music is a creation of God (not Greeks) for Himself and we are allowed to participate in it for His glory, His pleasure and our own blessing.
yes, but the greeks formalised the scales we use in the west. there are 8 modes if i remember rightly and they are what we use, but more commonly just 2 of them which we call the major and minor scales. anyway that same logic can be applied to death metal as God created music. what matters is not the style, but the intent behind it. and if i can listen to a non-christian talk about how he feels about life i can listen to one sing about it.

[Zecryphon]

Well, who is doing the thought-provoking? Who is doing the creating of that music?

If it isn't anointed or created by the anointed, then I wouldn't trust the thoughts it generates. God can cause me to think on things I need to address without a secular message to initiate it. He is Lord, and He will direct me using His own delivery system to my mind and heart!

I have given control of my mind over to the Holy Spirit. He shows me what is right and good for me.
"Well, who is doing the thought-provoking? "

Wouldn't it be the individual who does it? I mean what is thought provoking to one person may not be so thought provoking to another.

"Who is doing the creating of that music? "

This is debatable. It could all go back to God since it would ultimately be God who gifted that person with the ability to write music and lyrics.


"If it isn't anointed or created by the anointed, then I wouldn't trust the thoughts it generates."

But there is a variable here, which is the person hearing this music. Plus how does one receive the anointing of God? And how can we be sure that just because a secular musician has recorded music that they are not annointed? We do not know for certain what is in their heart or what their standing is in relation to God.


"God can cause me to think on things I need to address without a secular message to initiate it."

This is true. It is also true that God can use other means to get us to reflect upon things He wants us to reflect upon. He does indeed work in strange ways and can use the things in our lives to draw us closer to Him.

"He is Lord, and He will direct me using His own delivery system to my mind and heart!"

And secular music, books, movies, tv, etc. are beyond God's dominion? He absolutely can not use those to reach us?


"I have given control of my mind over to the Holy Spirit. He shows me what is right and good for me."

I disagree that you gave anything over to the Holy Spirit. I think the Holy Spirit took control of your mind from you. We will never choose anything good because of our sinful nature. When the Spirit works in our lives, it's not because we let Him, it's because that's what God has sent Him to do.

[pgp_protector]

And what of instrumental music ?
Is it bad (it doesn't "praise God", it doesn't praise anything)

[Floatingaxe]

yes, but the greeks formalised the scales we use in the west. there are 8 modes if i remember rightly and they are what we use, but more commonly just 2 of them which we call the major and minor scales. anyway that same logic can be applied to death metal as God created music. what matters is not the style, but the intent behind it. and if i can listen to a non-christian talk about how he feels about life i can listen to one sing about it.


And God is glorified in it how?
Questions to consider when choosing music to listen to:

What is the spirit behind the song?
Who or what does it exalt? The world? The flesh? The devil? Jesus?
Does it edify the believer? Philippians 4:8 And now, dear brothers and sisters, one final thing. Fix your thoughts on what is true, and honorable, and right, and pure, and lovely, and admirable. Think about things that are excellent and worthy of praise.Make a choice to have a positive answer to all questions!

Deuteronomy 7:26
Do not bring any detestable objects into your home, for then you will be destroyed, just like them. You must utterly detest such things, for they are set apart for destruction.

[Floatingaxe]

Good post, Zecryphon, except I differ in this:


I disagree that you gave anything over to the Holy Spirit. I think the Holy Spirit took control of your mind from you. We will never choose anything good because of our sinful nature. When the Spirit works in our lives, it's not because we let Him, it's because that's what God has sent Him to do.



It is for us to relinquish control to the Holy Spirit. Get off that throne and let God have it.

We lay our sinful natures at the cross. We take on the new nature of God and His holiness. We are continually at war concerning this very thing in our selves, but we are adopted into that Forever Family and we are citizens of Heaven...not earth.

The Holy spirit cannot work anything in us unless we co-operate by relinquishing our grip on our will.

[sebastian]

And God is glorified in it how?
Questions to consider when choosing music to listen to:

What is the spirit behind the song?
Who or what does it exalt? The world? The flesh? The devil? Jesus?
Does it edify the believer? Philippians 4:8 And now, dear brothers and sisters, one final thing. Fix your thoughts on what is true, and honorable, and right, and pure, and lovely, and admirable. Think about things that are excellent and worthy of praise.Make a choice to have a positive answer to all questions!

Deuteronomy 7:26
Do not bring any detestable objects into your home, for then you will be destroyed, just like them. You must utterly detest such things, for they are set apart for destruction.





if a song is about love, is that evil? if it is about enjoying life is that bad? or if it is about the desire for good things in the world? all of which secular music can do, it can also be about the pain of being alone, the longing for something good. these are real people's feelings and i don;t see why i should be told to ignore them when I haven't felt convicted about it myself, i have stopped listening to some music because of the content, one of my favorite songs infact (which had no words!). I mean if you want to become so strict about it, and i don;t mean this as an attack, but does a floating axe glorify God or does it conjure the image of violence? or am i just being over the top now? (which i think i am btw)

[Floatingaxe]

if a song is about love, is that evil? if it is about enjoying life is that bad? or if it is about the desire for good things in the world? all of which secular music can do, it can also be about the pain of being alone, the longing for something good. these are real people's feelings and i don;t see why i should be told to ignore them when I haven't felt convicted about it myself, i have stopped listening to some music because of the content, one of my favorite songs infact (which had no words!). I mean if you want to become so strict about it, and i don;t mean this as an attack, but does a floating axe glorify God or does it conjure the image of violence? or am i just being over the top now? (which i think i am btw)


If the "love song" causes you to think fleshly thoughts, then where is God glorified?

Nostalgia for past sin is often brought about by certain music. To ruminate on past sin is fleshly thinking and has the potential to cause us to become disquieted in our spirits, depressed, and even can cause us to give in to sin. Worst case scenario, it can drive us to self-destruction.

The person who spends the entire day listening to secular music feels the desire to do what he listens to. If he listens to music that speaks about things that can’t be, sadness, frustration, and the pain that life has given him, he will end up depressed, bitter, drinking, or committing suicide.

[pgp_protector]

And what of instrumental music ?
Is it bad (it doesn't "praise God", it doesn't praise anything)
Floatingaxe ???

[Zecryphon]

Good post, Zecryphon, except I differ in this:



It is for us to relinquish control to the Holy Spirit. Get off that throne and let God have it.

We lay our sinful natures at the cross. We take on the new nature of God and His holiness. We are continually at war concerning this very thing in our selves, but we are adopted into that Forever Family and we are citizens of Heaven...not earth.

The Holy spirit cannot work anything in us unless we co-operate by relinquishing our grip on our will.
So according to what you have said here, God does not get all the glory when it comes to saving you because He can not do anything until YOU let Him? Where is that in the Bible?

[Floatingaxe]

Floatingaxe ???

We have to keep in mind the fact that we have music in each part of our body: breathing, in our heartbeat, in each molecule of our being. Because we have music within us, we are attracted to different melodies and rhythms. It is natural to us because God created us that way.


With regard to lyric-less music, we need to pay attention to what it generates in us. We also would do well to research who the composer is. Did he or she live a life of debauchery? If they were obviously into degradation, then the music would not be a vehicle for blessing, having been hatched out of darkness, would it?

We can’t forbid ourselves to listen to music, but we do have to know how to use it in a way that won’t bring us negative consequences. Music will influence our behaviour. For example, people with nervous disorders or with hyperactive children can play soft music to calm them and to reduce anxiety. Frequently we move our feet, fingers, or head to the rhythms that we listen to, and we unconsciously sing songs that we may not even like! We do it because that song sticks in our minds.

Satan made a plan to get inside our minds and hearts through music, so that he can control our behaviours, and rule our lives. Then he is able to lead us to his original purpose of destruction and death, both physically and spiritually. Satan wants to steal everything that we love…our families, feelings, friends, and finally ourselves as people.

John 10:10
The thief comes only to steal, to kill and to destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.

[Floatingaxe]

So according to what you have said here, God does not get all the glory when it comes to saving you because He can not do anything until YOU let Him? Where is that in the Bible?


Romans 8:6 and 12-14
So letting your sinful nature control your mind leads to death. But letting the Spirit control your mind leads to life and peace...
you have no obligation to do what your sinful nature urges you to do. For if you live by its dictates, you will die. But if through the power of the Spirit you put to death the deeds of your sinful nature, you will live. For all who are led by the Spirit of God are children of God.



We have a choice to make. Allow the Holy Spirit dominion, or be a carnal Christian. This is about consecration.

[Zecryphon]

If the "love song" causes you to think fleshly thoughts, then where is God glorified?

Nostalgia for past sin is often brought about by certain music. To ruminate on past sin is fleshly thinking and has the potential to cause us to become disquieted in our spirits, depressed, and even can cause us to give in to sin. Worst case scenario, it can drive us to self-destruction.

The person who spends the entire day listening to secular music feels the desire to do what he listens to. If he listens to music that speaks about things that can’t be, sadness, frustration, and the pain that life has given him, he will end up depressed, bitter, drinking, or committing suicide.

"If the "love song" causes you to think fleshly thoughts, then where is God glorified? "

Why is this always the automatic end result of listening to a secular song? Why can't a Christian just listen to the story the song tells and think to themselves "oh man, I remember when that was me. Thank God I have a new heart and a new desire and I am no longer like the person in this song. Praise God!

"Nostalgia for past sin is often brought about by certain music. To ruminate on past sin is fleshly thinking and has the potential to cause us to become disquieted in our spirits, depressed, and even can cause us to give in to sin. Worst case scenario, it can drive us to self-destruction."

Only if you still long for that sin. If that is the case then you should not be listening to certain types of music until you are stronger in your faith. But because you are weak in one area does not mean that all secular music is bad for all people. Remember all things are permissible but not all things are beneficial. This would be one area that would not be beneficial and therefore should be avoided.


"The person who spends the entire day listening to secular music feels the desire to do what he listens to."

I spend my entire day listening to Christian podcasts and secular music. I tend to spend my evenings proclaiming Christ and the truth of God's written word to all the people I meet in Second Life. But why do I do that? Why wouldn't I act upon the negative emotions that secular music should be creating in me?

"If he listens to music that speaks about things that can’t be, sadness, frustration, and the pain that life has given him, he will end up depressed, bitter, drinking, or committing suicide."

He doesn't have to. The new spirit that resides in him is stronger than any of those things. A person who is susceptible to the things you mention should not be listening to secular music. Unfortunately, we can't go around practicing psychiatry or psychology without a license. God will let the person know if what they are doing is beneficial or not. Sometimes a person may have to self-destruct before they hear the message coming from God. God uses our trials and tribulations and allows them to happen to us, so that we will be prepared for future situations in our walk with him.

[Floatingaxe]

"If the "love song" causes you to think fleshly thoughts, then where is God glorified? "

Why is this always the automatic end result of listening to a secular song? Why can't a Christian just listen to the story the song tells and think to themselves "oh man, I remember when that was me. Thank God I have a new heart and a new desire and I am no longer like the person in this song. Praise God!

"Nostalgia for past sin is often brought about by certain music. To ruminate on past sin is fleshly thinking and has the potential to cause us to become disquieted in our spirits, depressed, and even can cause us to give in to sin. Worst case scenario, it can drive us to self-destruction."

Only if you still long for that sin. If that is the case then you should not be listening to certain types of music until you are stronger in your faith. But because you are weak in one area does not mean that all secular music is bad for all people. Remember all things are permissible but not all things are beneficial. This would be one area that would not be beneficial and therefore should be avoided.


"The person who spends the entire day listening to secular music feels the desire to do what he listens to."

I spend my entire day listening to Christian podcasts and secular music. I tend to spend my evenings proclaiming Christ and the truth of God's written word to all the people I meet in Second Life. But why do I do that? Why wouldn't I act upon the negative emotions that secular music should be creating in me?

"If he listens to music that speaks about things that can’t be, sadness, frustration, and the pain that life has given him, he will end up depressed, bitter, drinking, or committing suicide."

He doesn't have to. The new spirit that resides in him is stronger than any of those things. A person who is susceptible to the things you mention should not be listening to secular music. Unfortunately, we can't go around practicing psychiatry or psychology without a license. God will let the person know if what they are doing is beneficial or not. Sometimes a person may have to self-destruct before they hear the message coming from God. God uses our trials and tribulations and allows them to happen to us, so that we will be prepared for future situations in our walk with him.


Good things there! It's all about being holy as He is holy, eh?

1 Peter 1:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=67&chapter=1&verse=16&version=50&context=verse)
because it is written, “Be holy, for I am holy.”

[sebastian]

If the "love song" causes you to think fleshly thoughts, then where is God glorified?

Nostalgia for past sin is often brought about by certain music. To ruminate on past sin is fleshly thinking and has the potential to cause us to become disquieted in our spirits, depressed, and even can cause us to give in to sin. Worst case scenario, it can drive us to self-destruction.

The person who spends the entire day listening to secular music feels the desire to do what he listens to. If he listens to music that speaks about things that can’t be, sadness, frustration, and the pain that life has given him, he will end up depressed, bitter, drinking, or committing suicide.

then it isn't a love song it's about something else, i don't listen to stuff like that.
The person who spends the entire day listening to secular music feels the desire to do what he listens to. If he listens to music that speaks about things that can’t be, sadness, frustration, and the pain that life has given him, he will end up depressed, bitter, drinking, or committing suicide.
in some cases i think it can enhance feelings already within that person, but it will not make them do anything though. music is emotive but nothing more than that. I agree we need to think about what we listen to, (or look at, or think about etc.) but that applies to everything, even worship music, to be honest if i had to listen to worship music allday i'd go mad so much of it is often dishonest and clichéd and therfore meaningless, but will we happily accept that because it has a christian tag?
anything can be bad for us despite what label is attached to it, but the same goes for what can be good for us.

you didn;t answer my point about your axe by the way.

[staveoffzombies]

So does this apply to any kind of written word then? We can't read any poetry that isn't directly in line with our beliefs? We can't watch any movie or play that has any concepts or ideas that may be outside of what we believe? What about lyrics that may be personal in nature, or lyrics that are philisophical in nature? We have to avoid those because we may be exposed to some new or different idea?

Are we to completely shut ourselves off from everything not directly related to our little bubble of belief? I am fully in agreement that music in church should be directly glorifying to God, but to stretch that definition out to every single facet of life is ludicrous.

[Zecryphon]

Romans 8:6 and 12-14
So letting your sinful nature control your mind leads to death. But letting the Spirit control your mind leads to life and peace...
you have no obligation to do what your sinful nature urges you to do. For if you live by its dictates, you will die. But if through the power of the Spirit you put to death the deeds of your sinful nature, you will live. For all who are led by the Spirit of God are children of God.



We have a choice to make. Allow the Holy Spirit dominion, or be a carnal Christian. This is about consecration.
How do you reconcile those verses with Romans 7:18-19:

So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. Rom 7:18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out.

So if we do not have the power to do good, or what is right, who is interceding on our behalf to cause us to do what is right? For instance,calling upon the name of Jesus Christ to save us from God's wrath?

[Floatingaxe]

I mean if you want to become so strict about it, and i don;t mean this as an attack, but does a floating axe glorify God or does it conjure the image of violence? or am i just being over the top now? (which i think i am btw)

My floating axe is from the story of Elisha in 2 Kings 6. No violence is even remotely attached to it.

It is a God-glorifying element of my life.

[Floatingaxe]

How do you reconcile those verses with Romans 7:18-19:

So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. Rom 7:18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out.

So if we do not have the power to do good, or what is right, who is interceding on our behalf to cause us to do what is right? For instance,calling upon the name of Jesus Christ to save us from God's wrath?



What are you asking? We all have the war within us as Paul did. We all have the power of the Holy Spirit to overcome! It is up to us to allow Him to control us and thereby we defeat the enemy working against us.

None of those scriptures clash in any way in their meaning. It's all good!

[sebastian]

My floating axe is from the story of Elisha in 2 Kings 6. No violence is even remotely attached to it.

It is a God-glorifying element of my life.

puh, there goes that argument!

[pgp_protector]

We have to keep in mind the fact that we have music in each part of our body: breathing, in our heartbeat, in each molecule of our being. Because we have music within us, we are attracted to different melodies and rhythms. It is natural to us because God created us that way.
I must of missed this in the bible.
Now I have heard about thought like this before I was Christian & when looking into the "new age" movement, but never in the bible. Care to point it out in the bible where Every Molecule has Music in it ?



With regard to lyric-less music, we need to pay attention to what it generates in us. We also would do well to research who the composer is. Did he or she live a life of debauchery? If they were obviously into degradation, then the music would not be a vehicle for blessing, having been hatched out of darkness, would it?
I know of no sinless composers, and I don't recall Jesus composing too much music.
Also any scripture to back this up ?


...snip...

[Floatingaxe]

So does this apply to any kind of written word then? We can't read any poetry that isn't directly in line with our beliefs? We can't watch any movie or play that has any concepts or ideas that may be outside of what we believe? What about lyrics that may be personal in nature, or lyrics that are philisophical in nature? We have to avoid those because we may be exposed to some new or different idea?

Are we to completely shut ourselves off from everything not directly related to our little bubble of belief? I am fully in agreement that music in church should be directly glorifying to God, but to stretch that definition out to every single facet of life is ludicrous.


Proverbs 7:2
Obey my commands and live! Guard my instructions as you guard your own eyes.

1 John 2:16
For all that is in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—is not of the Father but is of the world.

[sebastian]

Every Molecule has Music in it ?
to be fair, everything does vibrate and resonate at a certain frequency, even the earth as a whole makes a note.

[pgp_protector]

to be fair, everything does vibrate and resonate at a certain frequency, even the earth as a whole makes a note.
While it's true that they vibrate,
vibrate != music.
I'll even give you string theory, (cool subject but a bit OT for this thread ;) )

[pgp_protector]

Proverbs 7:2
Obey my commands and live! Guard my instructions as you guard your own eyes.

1 John 2:16
For all that is in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—is not of the Father but is of the world.


So is this forum on the internet in the world ?

[twistedsketch]

Floatingaxe, I understand what you're getting at, but not one of the verses you listed condemns secular music in general.

"Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things." - Philippians 4:8 (emphasis mine)

God does not need to be overtly mentioned in order for a song, book, movie scene, or painting to be any of these things.

[Zecryphon]

What are you asking? We all have the war within us as Paul did. We all have the power of the Holy Spirit to overcome! It is up to us to allow Him to control us and thereby we defeat the enemy working against us.

None of those scriptures clash in any way in their meaning. It's all good!
Was it also up to us to allow the Holy Spirit to draw us to God? Or did the Holy Spirit do that independent of our will?

[Floatingaxe]

to be fair, everything does vibrate and resonate at a certain frequency, even the earth as a whole makes a note.


Whoohooo! :thumbsup: Creation sings!!

Isaiah 55:12
You will live in joy and peace.
The mountains and hills will burst into song,
and the trees of the field will clap their hands!

[Floatingaxe]

Was it also up to us to allow the Holy Spirit to draw us to God? Or did the Holy Spirit do that independent of our will?


So, where I assumed we had agreement in thought, I see a bit of opposition.

The Holy Spirit draws us to God. We, in resulting relationship with God, then must consecrate ourselves to Him.

You know the answer. Why the test? What has that to do with this? Once saved, we are to seek after God and His ways and His righteousness.

[Floatingaxe]

So is this forum on the internet in the world ?

CF has a Godly purpose...but the world is in here...plainly.

[staveoffzombies]

Ok, so basically your entire argument is this.

Every piece of secular music, secular movies, secular literature, secular ANYTHING that doesn't directly praise God, will pull us away from Him and if we enjoy anything secular then that makes us all bad Christians.

That about it?

[Floatingaxe]

Floatingaxe, I understand what you're getting at, but not one of the verses you listed condemns secular music in general.

"Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things." - Philippians 4:8 (emphasis mine)

God does not need to be overtly mentioned in order for a song, book, movie scene, or painting to be any of these things.

So, you think that those scriptures I posted were to condemn something?

[pgp_protector]

CF has a Godly purpose...but the world is in here...plainly.
Didn't you just post
1 John 2:16
For all that is in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—is not of the Father but is of the world.

Was that misused ?

[sebastian]

While it's true that they vibrate,
vibrate != music.
I'll even give you string theory, (cool subject but a bit OT for this thread ;) )
string theory is great! :D as a musician myself i have a half emotive reaction to music and a half clinical one. I know that all i am doing is manipulating and altering frequencies in accordance with a culturally defined musical language that we have been born into. so can it be music? well, to some people maybe, depends what your into! if you speed up some of the sounds so they are audible it is quite beautiful, otherwise it sounds like that wierd stuff you get on the radio when your not tuned in properly on the am frequency.
sorry, i'm on a tangent.

[Floatingaxe]

Ok, so basically your entire argument is this.

Every piece of secular music, secular movies, secular literature, secular ANYTHING that doesn't directly praise God, will pull us away from Him and if we enjoy anything secular then that makes us all bad Christians.

That about it?

Nope. Secularity is toxic to us as King's kids. It has the potential for great harm to weak and good Christians alike! But we are all in process in our walk with Jesus. I am pointing out what He has taught me about holiness.

It's a good lesson about being careful about your choices. They ARE choices after all.

[Floatingaxe]

Didn't you just post
1 John 2:16
For all that is in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—is not of the Father but is of the world.

Was that misused ?


Misused? Not by me. For what purpose? That verse is what sin is all about.

[pgp_protector]

If All that is in the world is not of the father, and CF is in the world, then it's not of the father.

[Floatingaxe]

If All that is in the world is not of the father, and CF is in the world, then it's not of the father.


1 John 2:16
For all that is in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—is not of the Father but is of the world.

Hey, honey, you are doing the extrapolation here...you tell us! Is CF a "worldly" enterprise? Is it driven by the flesh, by lust, by ego? You answer about the origins and mandate of CF.

[Cotmweasel]

as my youth pastor says "not all christian music is good and not all Secular music is bad" and I completely agree. however if someone doesn't wish to listen to Secular music at all I think thats awesome. but in the end thats between you and God.

[Zecryphon]

So, where I assumed we had agreement in thought, I see a bit of opposition.

The Holy Spirit draws us to God. We, in resulting relationship with God, then must consecrate ourselves to Him.

You know the answer. Why the test? What has that to do with this? Once saved, we are to seek after God and His ways and His righteousness.
No test, just trying to figure out what you believe. Why the paranoia? :P

[Floatingaxe]

No test, just trying to figure out what you believe. Why the paranoia? :P


Hehe ^_^ ...no paranoia, dear, but you have been around these boards, have you not?

Sometimes who appears to be a brother isn't always a brother. :wave:

[Zecryphon]

Hehe ^_^ ...no paranoia, dear, but you have been around these boards, have you not?

Sometimes who appears to be a brother isn't always a brother. :wave:
Shhh, we can't talk about those who must not be named as ________ converts. That's a major forum violation! :-)

[PacktSardine]

FloatingAxe: I think you are forgetting the big picture. It's all about how the music affects the listener. If someone is listening to music that fills them with anger and hatred, then yes that is a problem. To say that EVERYTHING a person does must directly glorify the Lord is frankly almost impossible. If you truly believe this, I hope you don't like to watch the news or any movies besides Charlton Heston Presents the Bible and Left Behind.

[JolieHeart]

The original question re: secular music...
There is good and bad in everything. Good/bad music, movies, websites, etc.

We can be in the world and not OF the world. Not all sec music is bad. People can listen to so-called secular music without internalizing negativity. Although there is "guilt by association," Listening to secular music does not glorify the bad music, same as Jesus eating with the sinners did not make him a sinner.

[Floatingaxe]

FloatingAxe: I think you are forgetting the big picture. It's all about how the music affects the listener. If someone is listening to music that fills them with anger and hatred, then yes that is a problem. To say that EVERYTHING a person does must directly glorify the Lord is frankly almost impossible. If you truly believe this, I hope you don't like to watch the news or any movies besides Charlton Heston Presents the Bible and Left Behind.

Hehe! ^_^ I do believe that we must glorify God in all that we do, which is scriptural. Therein you will discover the "big picture."

[Anwar]

as my youth pastor says "not all christian music is good and not all Secular music is bad" and I completely agree. however if someone doesn't wish to listen to Secular music at all I think thats awesome. but in the end thats between you and God.
dont believe that crap, any pastor that think that will think its ok to bring DMX to sing lord give me a sign at their church

[Zecryphon]

dont believe that crap, any pastor that think that will think its ok to bring DMX to sing lord give me a sign at their church
"dont believe that crap, any pastor that think that will think its ok to bring DMX to sing lord give me a sign at their church"

What's wrong with bringing in DMX? He's a born-again Christian with a powerful testimony from what I've heard. A church in our area did bring him in to do just what you've stated here. I did not attend as I am not a member of that church.

[sebastian]

Should we have a "Secular music" sub fourm on a "Christian" site?
so what does the OP think, and why is christian in inverted commas?

[plmarquette]

Paul speaks in 2 timothy 1.1-7 of stirring yourself up with songs , words , to build up your faith , to overcome a spirit of gloom and doom , fear , doubt

... whether it is carman , steven curtis chapman , or the eurythmics ... shouldn't matter ...

... if we are speaking about gutter rap or acid rock with a constant theme of 1 corinthians 6.9 , then no ... trash can only beget trash

[Followers4christ]

My feeling is that when the OP, who is most likely hyped up on Ron Luce's battle rhetoric, talks about secular music, he's referring to what Ron personally objects to. Look at the bands he's listed, these aren't just secular bands, these are bands that certain Christians have deemed satanic, but rarely ever are. How come musicians like Pink, U2, Aerosmith, Madonna, Snoop Dogg, Snow Patrol, etc. aren't listed?

Everything you listen to or hear has to be filtered through the written word of God and tested to see if it's glorifying to God. That includes Christian music today that is so popular. There is more that is damaging to a Christian in today's Christian music than you will ever find in anything by the band's listed above by the OP.

Personally I listen to heavy metal music and other secular music as well, while there are references to satan in a couple of the songs I listen to, it's not outright glorification of him. Alot of heavy metal music deals with themes other than the devil. It is probably the among the most intelligent and creative music out there.

Plus, another factoid the OP probably doesn't want you to know is that the "evil" heavy metal bands have Christians in them. Iron Maiden is one. The drummer Nicko McBrain became a born-again Christian in 2000. Their music has been influenced by his conversion to Christianity and is dealing with religion in a some of their more recent songs. What we as a Christian site have to stop doing is deciding for everyone else what is "Christian" and what is not based upon our own personal feelings. What happened to loving people where they're at? You don't want to listen to secular music, fine, don't. But don't make it into a pseudo-sin for others because it doesn't match up to your preconcieved notions of what is right according to you. Also, more bands than just the ones the OP has listed are discussed in that sub-forum, which is open to all people, not just Christians. That forum doesn't exist just for Black Sabbath, ICP and Ozzy and his music festival. This issue has already been dealt with, by CF. They put that sub-fourm in the area of this forum that is open to everyone. I think this guy is just trying to stir a pot that need not be stirred anymore.



I did not think it necessary to mention every band in secular music.The bands you named are also daminging.Such as Pink who use's sex and bad language to sell records. Aerosmith sings about sex and violence (Love in the elevator,janie's got a gun) to sell records.Madonna is famous for using sex to sell records and shocking people by her bad behavior.Snoop Dogg use's his bad language and gang violence to sell records.I do not know Both U2 and Snow Patrol.

There is nothing wrong with Christian music that are glorifying God.Whats wrong with Christian rock bands like Skillet,Kutless,Disciple,Pillar,Seventh Day Slumber,Thousand Foot Krutch,Demon hunter,Jeremy Camp,Superchick and Red.Or what about great Gospel/worship music like MeryMe,Twila Paris,Michael W. Smith,Amy Grant,4Him,Hillsong United,Michael Gungor,Mark Schultz,Point of Grace and Sandie Patty.What about Christian pop/soft rock Music like Barlow Girl,Jessie Daniels,Carman,Jaci Velasquez,Dc Talk,Casting Crowns,Rebecca St. James,Sarah Kelly,Delirious? and Hawk Nelson.What's wrong with these or any Christian bands?

Nicko McBrain may be a christian but the band his in is far from it.He needs to be in a Christian band that Glorifies God not the world.We as a CHRISTIAN site must accept the sinners,but we should not accept the sin nor should we indulge in it.We must take a stand against the secular music that is hurting this Generation.We must stand together if we are going to reclaim this generation for Christ.God Bless :)

[Followers4christ]

so what does the OP think, and why is christian in inverted commas?


Why I put commas on the word Christian was because I believe that CF is becoming more and more like the world in regard's to making a secular music sub forum on a Christian site.I believe that secular music has no place on a Christian site.On this secular music sub forum people are praising bands like Marilyn Manson and Nightwish.Both these bands mock God on stage and hate Christianity.Why should a Christian site allow this junk to go on? God Bless

[staveoffzombies]

The simple fact is many Christian bands just aren't that great. I'm a big prog-metal and melodeath fan...and there really isn't a lot of Christian work that fall under that genre.

You find me a Christian band that is half as good as bands like Dream Theater, Opeth, Into Eternity, or Scar Symmetry and I'll check them out.

[sebastian]

Why I put commas on the word Christian was because I believe that CF is becoming more and more like the world in regard's to making a secular music sub forum on a Christian site.I believe that secular music has no place on a Christian site.On this secular music sub forum people are praising bands like Marilyn Manson and Nightwish.Both these bands mock God on stage and hate Christianity.Why should a Christian site allow this junk to go on? God Bless
I respect your point og view about secular music, and i agree about maralyn manson and whoever, but i just think it's bang out of order for you to say what is and isn't christian because this web site is made up of a body of beleivers both mature and weak, and not everyone agree's with your views. can a Christian make such a judgement and be justified themselves?

There is nothing wrong with Christian music that are glorifying God.Whats wrong with Christian rock bands like Skillet,Kutless,Disciple,Pillar,Seventh Day Slumber,Thousand Foot Krutch,Demon hunter,Jeremy Camp,Superchick and Red.Or what about great Gospel/worship music like MeryMe,Twila Paris,Michael W. Smith,Amy Grant,4Him,Hillsong United,Michael Gungor,Mark Schultz,Point of Grace and Sandie Patty.What about Christian pop/soft rock Music like Barlow Girl,Jessie Daniels,Carman,Jaci Velasquez,Dc Talk,Casting Crowns,Rebecca St. James,Sarah Kelly,Delirious? and Hawk Nelson.What's wrong with these or any Christian bands?
all these bands without a doubt are influenced by secular music and are infact a watered down replacement to secular bands, and they arn't very good as musicians, they don;t push any boundries musicaly they just copy and imitate, don;t get me wrong though I love some of those bands for they're passion and the great lyrics but they too have been influenced by secular music so it's a bit strange to say only listen to them but they in turn listen to secular music.

I do not know Both U2 and Snow Patrol.
good bands, U2 are made up of christians and have some influence in their music but not loads, snow patrol are secular but are very good in my opinion, you might like sufjan stevens while on the snow patrol theme, they sing about him in one of thier songs and he is a very very good christian songwriter and he is technicaly a secular artist. other bands like the fray are secular but made up of christians, same with athlete. this isn't metal music though more indie/rock.

[Zecryphon]

I did not think it necessary to mention every band in secular music.The bands you named are also daminging.Such as Pink who use's sex and bad language to sell records. Aerosmith sings about sex and violence (Love in the elevator,janie's got a gun) to sell records.Madonna is famous for using sex to sell records and shocking people by her bad behavior.Snoop Dogg use's his bad language and gang violence to sell records.I do not know Both U2 and Snow Patrol.

There is nothing wrong with Christian music that are glorifying God.Whats wrong with Christian rock bands like Skillet,Kutless,Disciple,Pillar,Seventh Day Slumber,Thousand Foot Krutch,Demon hunter,Jeremy Camp,Superchick and Red.Or what about great Gospel/worship music like MeryMe,Twila Paris,Michael W. Smith,Amy Grant,4Him,Hillsong United,Michael Gungor,Mark Schultz,Point of Grace and Sandie Patty.What about Christian pop/soft rock Music like Barlow Girl,Jessie Daniels,Carman,Jaci Velasquez,Dc Talk,Casting Crowns,Rebecca St. James,Sarah Kelly,Delirious? and Hawk Nelson.What's wrong with these or any Christian bands?

Nicko McBrain may be a christian but the band his in is far from it.He needs to be in a Christian band that Glorifies God not the world.We as a CHRISTIAN site must accept the sinners,but we should not accept the sin nor should we indulge in it.We must take a stand against the secular music that is hurting this Generation.We must stand together if we are going to reclaim this generation for Christ.God Bless :)
"I did not think it necessary to mention every band in secular music."

I don't know how anyone possibly could, the bands are so numerous. LOL

"The bands you named are also daminging.Such as Pink who use's sex and bad language to sell records."

The sex appeal and bad language may help, but i think it's the music itself, the way it makes people feel and what Pink is saying with her lyrics that really move her CD's.

"Aerosmith sings about sex and violence (Love in the elevator,janie's got a gun) to sell records."

They sing about other topics too. You're using a very broad brush here.

"Madonna is famous for using sex to sell records and shocking people by her bad behavior.Snoop Dogg use's his bad language and gang violence to sell records.I do not know Both U2 and Snow Patrol."

U2 is being adopted by Christians as a Christian band, even though they too sing about sex and violence in their songs as well. But hey, when 3 of 4 members are Christians I guess some stuff just falls by the wayside.

"There is nothing wrong with Christian music that are glorifying God."

That's true there is nothing wrong with that. But it's so rare.

"Whats wrong with Christian rock bands like Skillet,Kutless,Disciple,Pillar,Seventh Day Slumber,Thousand Foot Krutch,Demon hunter,Jeremy Camp,Superchick and Red.Or what about great Gospel/worship music like MeryMe,Twila Paris,Michael W. Smith,Amy Grant,4Him,Hillsong United,Michael Gungor,Mark Schultz,Point of Grace and Sandie Patty.What about Christian pop/soft rock Music like Barlow Girl,Jessie Daniels,Carman,Jaci Velasquez,Dc Talk,Casting Crowns,Rebecca St. James,Sarah Kelly,Delirious? and Hawk Nelson.What's wrong with these or any Christian bands?"

You forgot Carman, a good Christian singer who has a song called JC is in the house. JC? This is acceptable to Christians as a way to refer to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ? I guess it must be, it was featured in that recent film Jesus Camp. All the kids were singing along without a care in the world. This is one example of a bad Christian song that actually promotes disrespect for Jesus. But hey, when you're trying to be relevant, I guess anything goes huh?

Also, are you forgetting that Jaci Velasquez appeared in a secular movie called Chasing Papi? In which she was vying for the attention of a single man and doing her best to beat out two other ladies who also happen to be his girlfriend. Now one can only speculate as to what her character's relationship with Papi was like, but since it's a worldly film, we can all pretty well guess. How is that movie in any way glorifying to God? It encourages and promotes sex outside of marriage and depicts women as objects for a man's affections. Yeah great way to share your faith there Jaci. Now shall we delve into her personal life and speculate as to what may have led to her ::gasps:: divorce? That's right, she's divorced everyone. How does divorce glorify God? Why is there such a need by you to say that secular bands are bad and Christian bands are good? The point is that all these bands are made up of people and no one person in any of them is better than a person in another one. A Christian is a forgiven sinner. They're forgiven, not better than anyone else. We tend to forget that.

There is a 3 part diagnostic I use when evaluating a sermon to find out if it's Christ-centered and Cross-focused. This diagnostic can also be applied to Christian music lyrics quite easily too. It was not intended to be applied to music though. The system comes from Issues, Etc. a Lutheran podcast hosted by Todd Wilkinson.

Step 1. How many times is Jesus mentioned by name? Not as generic "God" or "the big guy upstairs" or "you know who". But as "Jesus" or "Jesus Christ" or "Christ" or "Our Savior" or "my redeemer".

Step 2. If Jesus is mentioned, is He the subject of the verbs? Is He doing the action, is the song telling you what Jesus has done or is He just someone in the background of the story or action?

Step 3. If Jesus is the subject of the verbs, what are those verbs? Is this the Jesus that is your power source? Your personal helper? The guy that helps you get through the week? Is He your inspiration when you're feeling down? The Jesus that you love so very much? Or is this the Jesus who has lived for you, died for you and rose from the dead for you?

"Nicko McBrain may be a christian but the band his in is far from it."

This is speculation that can not be backed up in anyway. You might wanna look at something other than The Number of the Beast that was released more than twenty years ago. Dave Mustaine and Alice Cooper are born-again Christians as well. Are they any less worthy of respect by you because of the music they produce?

"He needs to be in a Christian band that Glorifies God not the world."

That's your opinion and you are certainly entitled to it.

"We as a CHRISTIAN site must accept the sinners,but we should not accept the sin nor should we indulge in it."

What you seem to be forgetting is that the forum in question is in the section that is open to all people. The problem has already been handled. This sub-forum is not in the congregational section and therefore does not really pose the kind of problem you want to think it does.

"We must take a stand against the secular music that is hurting this Generation.We must stand together if we are going to reclaim this generation for Christ.God Bless :)"

Ah more of that Ron Luce battlecry and war rhetoric. You can not save anyone, the Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ and God are the ones who do that. So while you can plant your seeds among this generation, the real work, is done by the trinity. Now, enough talking about it, go into that forum and start planting. Happy hunting! LOL

[Zecryphon]

The simple fact is many Christian bands just aren't that great. I'm a big prog-metal and melodeath fan...and there really isn't a lot of Christian work that fall under that genre.

You find me a Christian band that is half as good as bands like Dream Theater, Opeth, Into Eternity, or Scar Symmetry and I'll check them out.
I love Dream Theater!

[MaidforHim]

I've read over many of the arguments here and I still see nothing in scripture that supports the fact or concept that secular music, if wholesome in nature, is wrong or sinful.

We each own the responsibility of governing our thoughts and deeds, that includes thoughtfully choosing the music we listen too.

Music was an important enough part of the Jewish culture that if ALL secular music were inherantly evil I think God would have mentioned a warning about it in His word. I think he did not do so because we're expected not to partake in anything evil and we're supposed to discern, with the help of the Holy Spirit on matters like this.

At the very least instrumentals would have been played at weddings and danced too during Jesus' time. I know not everything is mentioned in the Bible, but I believe that since music is such a big part of the human experience God might have mentioned "secular" music if "ALL OF IT" was to be avoided.

Of course we shouldn't be listening to anything that promotes or glorifies behavior unpleasing to God. In my mind no one here has said anything to prove or illustrate how or why a secular song about wholesome or amusing human experiences would be evil.

Bach Air for G String ... evil ?
The Ants Go Marching ... evil too ?

I very highly doubt it. On what grounds could anyone draw this conclusion?

Led Zepplin, Whole Lotta Love ... evil. Yes, there's suggestive immoral content there, it's not wholesome, it's obvious, it'd be best to avoid.

It just doesn't seem that hard to figure out.