Catholic Answers for whoever

[GW]

Hi Garry2. I opened this thread to answer some of your objections to the RCC. If you have other questions, please feel free to ask them here.

[GW]

Why does the RCC have statues and art and such in church buildings?

Quite simply, because they depict the people and places and events of redemptive history and give witness of the true faith to all observers, like any good movie, or storybook, or picture book does.

Your assertion that these things are idols is, I'm guessing, based on the prohibitions of graven images of pagan gods given in the O.T. In fact, the pagans did (and sometimes still do) craft gods out of wood and stone and then pledge their lives and fortunes to them. Moses' prohibition on graven images was against exactly that pagan kind of god-making.

Moses' prohibition was not absolute, however; notice that the Israelites were commanded to have graven images pertaining to the true faith, and these were abundant in their religious life. Just think of the Ark of the Covenant, the bronze serpent, and Solomon's Temple:


"And you shall make two cherubim of gold [i.e., two gold statues of angels]; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece of the mercy seat shall you make the cherubim on its two ends. The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be" (Ex. 25:18–20).

God told Moses to "make [a statue of] a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it shall live. So Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live" (Num. 21:8–9).

Solomon's Temple was filled with graven images of gold and bronze animals, angels, and more (1 Kings 6:23-28,35; 7:29; 2 Chronicles 2:7; 3:7)



Like those legitimate uses of images, Catholics use statues, paintings, and other artistic devices to recall the person or thing depicted. Just as it helps to remember one’s mother by looking at her photograph, so it helps to recall the example of the saints by looking at pictures of them.

Catholics also use statues as teaching tools. In the early Church they were especially useful for the instruction of the illiterate (and nearly everyone in history has been illiterate until recent times).

Many Protestants have pictures of Jesus and other Bible pictures in Sunday school for teaching children. Catholics also use statues to commemorate certain people and events, much as Protestant churches have three-dimensional nativity scenes at Christmas.

[GW]

Hi again Garry.

Garry2:
Incredible, the reason you refuse to show the verses which say to pray to mary, angels and saints is because there are not any.

I showed you Psalms where the psalmist is seen making requests of angels.

I also showed you in the book of Revelation that angels and saints are in direct contact with our prayers, and that they both receive them and offer them up to God (Rev 5:8; 8:3-4).



Garry2
You continue to pray to mary ,angels and saints, and i will continue to pray to God who hears and answers prayers.


Why not offer your own prayers to God and ask others to pray for you? Why not make use of all the helps God has made available to men for their spritual growth and redemption?



garry2
You are saying when we pray to God but He does not hear our prayers, the heavenly Angels have to take them to Him. No you are wrong, god is within those that are His, He hears our prayers directly.


If you do not need others to offer prayers on your behalf, then why does the N.T. command us to offer prayers on the behalf of one another? For sure, we are commanded to ask others to pray to God for us, and we are to pray to God on the behalf of others (1 Tim 2:1).

[garry2]

Hi Garry2. I opened this thread to answer some of your objections to the RCC. If you have other questions, please feel free to ask them here.
It is like talking to thin air, you have no answers.
You made claims and backed them with scripture that did not relate.:wave:

[GW]

Hi garry2.

Scriptures about the Israelites' use of statues and images show that God's prohibition of graven images was only against the pagan stone and wood gods.

Catholics are not guilty of idol worship for having art and statues and pictures of bible heroes and Jesus.

[GW]

Garry,

You cannot find any scripture that says its wrong to ask for christians, angels, and saints to say prayers for our well being.

So what's the problem?

[garry2]

Garry,

You cannot find any scripture that says its wrong to ask for christians, angels, and saints to say prayers for our well being.

So what's the problem?
Boy, you are the one with the problem. As I said before you continue to pray to mary, angels and saints and I will continue to pray to God who not only hears prayers By His Spirit in us ( the body of Christ, not all churches) but answers them as well.
If you don't pray to Him and hear from Him and rather pray to angels and people who died.
Then you are not His.

[garry2]

1 And it came to pass, that, as he was praying in a certain place, when he ceased, one of his disciples said unto him, Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples.
2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven,

Jesus who is our example in all things never prayed to anyone but His Father, and John the Baptist according to above verse also taught His disciples to only pray to the Father.
Jesus did not teach them to pray to His mother or saints or angels.

[garry2]

Gw said:
We can make requests that the saints of heaven pray to God for us as well.It is not Bibical, show me where it is written in the Bible "We can make requests that the saints of Heaven pray to God for us"
Gw said:
Catholics request that angels and saints pray to God for us
Again it is not Bibical.
GW said:
And, we pray to angels for their aid and intercession
In Psalm 103 we pray, "Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!" (Ps. 103:20–21). In the opening verses of Psalms 148 we pray, "Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!"
Gw quoted these verses to show that we are to pray to angels. But these verses don't say we are to pray to angels.
Gw said:

I showed you that the heavenly saints and angels are in contact with our prayers. In those passages I listed, the heavenly saints and angels have received earthly prayers, have gathered them, and they offer them up to God (Rev 8:3-4/5:8). What more do you need?
I also showed you that the psalmist made requests of angels. He addressed these heavenly beings and gave them instructions.

Revelation 8:3-4
And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. 4 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
Revelation 5:8
And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.


No these verses do not say we are to pray to angels and saints.

Also Rev 8 and 5 is yet to happen, it is in the future.
This is the psalms GW quoted:
And, we pray to angels for their aid and intercession. In Psalm 103 we pray, "Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!" (Ps. 103:20–21). In the opening verses of Psalms 148 we pray, "Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!"

Again this does not tell us to pray to Angels.

[GW]

Hi Garry2:

Let's take this a step at a time.

First, we agree that we are to offer requests to God. So, there's no dispute there. Catholics pray to God, and non-catholics pray to God.

Second, we *also* are to request that others would offer intercessions and prayers unto God on our behalf (1 Tim 2:1; 1 Thess 5:25; Heb 13:8; Col 1:9). Do you agree with this second statement? (Y/N)

[Mankin]

I have a question. Do some Catholics still condone the Crusades(Note I do not mean to attack Catholithism in any way.) There was some good reasons for the Crusade, but the Crusaders were misled, misinformed and barbaric.

[garry2]

Hi Garry2:

Let's take this a step at a time.
Take what a step at a time.
My question is - where is it written we are to pray to mary, angels and saints.
Instead of answering you twist things around - changing the subject because you do not have an answer, and instead of being Truthful to yourself and admit it, you prefer to stay in darkness in a spirit of fear.
First, we agree that we are to offer requests to God. So, there's no dispute there. Catholics pray to God, and non-catholics pray to God.

Second, we *also* are to request that others would offer intercessions and prayers unto God on our behalf
You can if you wish to.
I don't, I pray to God directly.
(1 Tim 2:1; 1 Thess 5:25; Heb 13:8; Col 1:9). Do you agree with this second statement? (Y/N)
No you are wrong, 1Timothy 2:1 does not say:
"we *also* are to request that others would offer intercessions and prayers unto God on our behalf."
1Timothy says we are to pray for all men (pray for, not ask for prayer)
Col 1:9 also talks about praying for someone, not asking them to pray for you.
Heb 3:8 has nothing to do with praying for or asking someone for prayer.
You are confused.
1Thess 5:25 according to this it is okay to ask persons to pray for you.
You are still beating around the bush because you have no answers, be Truthful, it is not written that we are to pray to mary, angels and saints, which is what you said, and what this thread is about and which you are afraid to say is not written in the Bible, preferring instead of remaining apart from the Spirit of Truth. (Who is Jesus)
You are still posting scripture to other things.
Im not interisted in taking one step at a time, you was doing that in another thread and changing the topic because you have nothing.
1Thess says we can ask people to pray for us.
We do not pray to people to pray for us, we ask them.
You cannot go up to mary, angels and saints and ask them to pray for you, you have to pray to them to pray for you, and it is not written that we should do that.
It is not written we are to pray to mary, angels and saints.
So put up or .... up. :)
You only have one question to answer.

[Mankin]

Yes, but I don't believe that you have to have them pray for you. I mean God will forgive any sin you want him to forgive you of. You don't need saints to pray for you.

[garry2]

Yes, but I don't believe that you have to have them pray for you. I mean God will forgive any sin you want him to forgive you of. You don't need saints to pray for you.
Yes, that's right, we can pray to God ourselves directly.

[Mankin]

Praying directly to saints seems to be a form of idol worship to me.

[garry2]

Praying directly to saints seems to be a form of idol worship to me.
Yes, I think so, just like making statues to them.

[LivingWordUnity]

I have a question. Do some Catholics still condone the Crusades(Note I do not mean to attack Catholithism in any way.) There was some good reasons for the Crusade, but the Crusaders were misled, misinformed and barbaric.If it were not for the crusades, all of Christian Europe would have been lost to Muslim aggression.

All of the places in the Middle East that are now 90-100% Muslim such as Saudi Arabia or Egypt used to be Christian lands.

Where the Muslims have taken Christian lands, the Christians are persecuted, killed, or forced to leave.

A lot of bad things were done on both sides, but war is never a pretty thing. Christians were fighting to keep the very existence of Christianity from being converted by the sword of Islam. And the global agenda of Islamic jihadists is still the same today.
.

[plmarquette]

If your mom and dad were born again, spirit filled and at the thone of God with Jesus ...

wouldn't you ask mom and dad to put in a good word for you ?

that is the intercession of the saints... with Jesus the new high priest ... amen ?

[Mankin]

I don't need them to. I have Jesus the ultimate intercesser. Not only is this practice unnecessary it is untrue(I'll go into that later.)

[LittleLambofJesus]

How do the catholics view the "rapture" doctrine of the dispensationalists futurists? Thanks. :wave:

[Spiritofprophecy]

Greetings in the Name of Jesus: :)

I am not a Catholic hater, and Catholics people are Great Christians and Catholocism was Gods will to bring about Gods " strange act": to instruct , teach and move man.

Quoting Governor Frank Keating, An U.S. Catholic deacon, appointed to investigate the abuse of minors by priests and leader of Catholic Church. Found that the Leadership of Catholicism, is unable for self correction and to acknowledge leadership problems. Which all leaderships of denominations of men holding power are tempted.

Leadership of Catholicism which contends; and has established in Writing unto today that " the Pope is perfect in theological matters": in relationship to Jesus saying, " he who saith he hath not sin, Calleth me a liar"
When leaders in Catholicism claim perfection in anything, is to fulfill this sin. To Not correct the abuse of children by Leadership of Catholicism, is proof they have problems therein. The leaders of Catholicism are not the Church, the people of Faith are.

Priests who commit crimes against children( 2 billion $ pay to coverup); which leaders cannot stop. Proves by Gods evidence of reality and fruits of their actions: their leadership is not what they claim. " perfect". And then they condemn all other non Catholics as unsaved.

Lest Catholic leaders can explain this protection and coverup of evil by Church leaders, without correcting this evil: They Lose all credibility on spiritual matters and theology based on their fruits of fleshly evil.

I know this is harsh and not a positive message: but it is a message of truth, Catholic leaders fail to answer and correct. As All institutions of Men have such problems they must deal with. And pointing to evils of others( baptist and methodist and etc do evil too) which is true, has nothing to do with ones own evil. And is a cop out on self correction and sin.

I pray that my words do not offend and anger any. I am only stating the truth as its printed in the paper. Which is a reflection on All Christians of faith.

God bless C.F. and all who use it.:wave:

[kepha31]

There is no explicit direct verse that says to pray to saints, but scripture references are infered and implicit. The doctrine of the Communion of Saints was well understood by those who authored the Apostles Creed. That creed is heavliy rooted in scripture. The doctrine comes from Jesus and the Apostles in an undeveloped form, and it was not until AFTER Christians were being killed in large numbers that the doctrine developed. It grew AFTER the Bible had been written, so to demand scripture verses is dishonest. Please, please,stop condemning something you refuse to examine with any degree of honesty, because trying to explain it to a person with an attitude is a waste of time. That's why I am only going to post links. Christianity without continuity is not Christianity. Prayers to saints has been around snce the beginning, and the evidence is there for anyone who wants to see it. Denial of prayers to the saints is a man made invention and has heated up in the past 100 years.

LIST OF SUPPORTING BIBLE VERSES AND EARLY CHURCH WRITINGS
http://www.scripturecatholic.com/saints.html

Praying to the Saints
http://www.catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp

Saint Worship?
http://www.catholic.com/library/Saint_Worship.asp

Do Catholics Worship Statues?
http://www.catholic.com/library/Do_Catholics_Worship_Statues.asp

[Mankin]

Please show me a verse which infers that. I don't need to pray to saints, I have Christ to pray to. I have my reasons to believe that Catholicism made up some stuff too. No offense though.

[kepha31]

Please show me a verse which infers that. I don't need to pray to saints, I have Christ to pray to. I have my reasons to believe that Catholicism made up some stuff too. No offense though.

Catholics don't need to pray to saints either. It's not required, but recommended and effective. It was not "made up". If you really want scriptures, I posted the link for those who really want them. By saying "Please show me a verse which infers that." immediatley after I gave them, you prove you are not ready to read them.

LIST OF SUPPORTING BIBLE VERSES AND EARLY CHURCH WRITINGS
http://www.scripturecatholic.com/saints.html (http://www.scripturecatholic.com/saints.html)

[kepha31]

Greetings in the Name of Jesus: :)

I am not a Catholic hater, and Catholics people are Great Christians and Catholocism was Gods will to bring about Gods " strange act": to instruct , teach and move man.

Quoting Governor Frank Keating, An U.S. Catholic deacon, appointed to investigate the abuse of minors by priests and leader of Catholic Church. Found that the Leadership of Catholicism, is unable for self correction and to acknowledge leadership problems. Which all leaderships of denominations of men holding power are tempted.

Leadership of Catholicism which contends; and has established in Writing unto today that " the Pope is perfect in theological matters": in relationship to Jesus saying, " he who saith he hath not sin, Calleth me a liar"
When leaders in Catholicism claim perfection in anything, is to fulfill this sin. To Not correct the abuse of children by Leadership of Catholicism, is proof they have problems therein. The leaders of Catholicism are not the Church, the people of Faith are.

Priests who commit crimes against children( 2 billion $ pay to coverup); which leaders cannot stop. Proves by Gods evidence of reality and fruits of their actions: their leadership is not what they claim. " perfect". And then they condemn all other non Catholics as unsaved.

Lest Catholic leaders can explain this protection and coverup of evil by Church leaders, without correcting this evil: They Lose all credibility on spiritual matters and theology based on their fruits of fleshly evil.

I know this is harsh and not a positive message: but it is a message of truth, Catholic leaders fail to answer and correct. As All institutions of Men have such problems they must deal with. And pointing to evils of others( baptist and methodist and etc do evil too) which is true, has nothing to do with ones own evil. And is a cop out on self correction and sin.

I pray that my words do not offend and anger any. I am only stating the truth as its printed in the paper. Which is a reflection on All Christians of faith.

God bless C.F. and all who use it.:wave:
I'm really tired of Christian voyeurists who glean over 5 year old scandal issues as if it did not exist with ministers. We know it is evil, and the last 2 popes have publicly denounced the scandals as evil. The Catholic Church is spending a lot of money on research to find ways to make sure it does not happen, and made many changes to keep perverts from sneaking in to the seminaries. Strict guidelines have been given to all bishops, which include immediate suspension until proven innocent, full coperation with law enforcement agencies etc. What have Protestants done to keep these sickos out of Bible colleges? Nothing.

A few sick men does not give you the right to persecute the whole Church and slander the pope "in the name of Jesus" . If your really concerned about the victims, you would mention something about school teachers and mental health providers who have soaring abuse rates well above priests. Or you would say something about Planned Parenthood who tries to roadblock legislators who want them to stop covering for rapists.

Your charges are false and hypocritical.

[Spiritofprophecy]

Greetings in the name of Jesus::)

Now if one is life long Catholic, and deacon of his church. And becomes Governor of the State of Oklahoma. And is appointed by Catholic leaders in America to discover into the roots and cause of Priesthood Child abuse problems. Now when this appointed Catholic of Unquestioned honesty comes to conclusions about his own Church; and then others believe and comment and trust his conclusions and suggestions as truth and accurate; Are then called False and hypocritical.

If this is accurate; as it does seem so; then there is a hypocrisy, but its not coming from quotes and findings of Governor Frank Keating. Life long Catholic patron.

If the papers are lying about Priest: then return the bishop in vatican city back to america for trial or whatever. And lets see.

Now the Old evils you say; which Just this month went to court and a 600 million dollar settlement is reached;. but one thing is seemingly true: the victims, the Catholic children and their parents: refuse to comment or speak or remark, Claiming it is part of the settlement.

Now why would these Catholics Lie. I dont think they are. I think their silence was purchased.

To me in protestant or non denominational circles. Darkness and silence is not of God.

And all these "falsehoods and Hypocrisies" Can all be googled. and if proven false can have damage claims.

And Catholics are frequently; falsely accused. but all these of false claims are all Non Catholics. Not your own people.

Now when Catholics leaders are calling Large groups of Catholic patrons; Hypocrites and speaking False hoods. Some with unquestioned records in truth. Like Frank Keating.

Then the charge of speaking false hoods and Hypocrisy are aimed in the wrong direction. And to even deflect the concerns of your own patrons. Shows the root and breadth of its leadership problems.

And admitting to a problem and of a evil, After it is caught and found out and proven in its evil, is not a form of remorse or contrition.

Catholics patrons are great people. but their leaders in this aspect and events do fail the flock of Catholics, to paraphrase Gov, Keating. Call him a hypocrite and speaking falsehoods. 600 million this month in settlements, says other.

God loves all Catholics, and will protect his people, and correct evils done against his believers.
I pray my words do not offend. God bless C.F. and all who use it. :wave:




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[MrPolo]

Please show me a verse which infers that. I don't need to pray to saints, I have Christ to pray to. I have my reasons to believe that Catholicism made up some stuff too. No offense though.

Romans 15:30-32 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%2015:30-32&version=31) is one of many. Do you think Paul was wrong to ask others to pray for him instead of going straight to Christ?

[PreachersWife2004]

Romans 15:30-32 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%2015:30-32&version=31) is one of many. Do you think Paul was wrong to ask others to pray for him instead of going straight to Christ?

I think you're talking about apples and oranges here.

Asking my brothers and sisters in Christ (who are still alive) to pray FOR me is quite different than praying to a dead person in heaven. Note that he also says "JOIN ME". He, too, was praying to God.

I urge you, brothers, by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the Spirit, to join me in my struggle by praying to God for me. 31Pray that I may be rescued from the unbelievers in Judea and that my service in Jerusalem may be acceptable to the saints there, 32so that by God's will I may come to you with joy and together with you be refreshed.

[MrPolo]

I think you're talking about apples and oranges here.

Asking my brothers and sisters in Christ (who are still alive) to pray FOR me is quite different than praying to a dead person in heaven.

No, the argument was you should go straight to Christ. And you've now added a stipulation of "unless those people are alive on earth."

Furthermore, where does the Bible say that people in heaven "are not still alive"??? They are in the truest sense more alive than we are!

You see, the anti-praying-to-saints believer finds him or herself in quite a predicament. If the rule is "straight-to-Christ", then you have to discard Paul's authority to ask others for intercession (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ephesians%206:18-20;&version=31;). If the rule is "straight-to-Christ + those who are still alive on earth" then you have to believe those in heaven are dead and/or have no consciousness of our prayers...in which case you have to throw out the Transfiguration (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2017:1-6&version=31).

Jesus loves us and wants us to pray for each other and ask each other to pray for us. The Bible encourages to do so.

[PreachersWife2004]

No, the argument was you should go straight to Christ. And you've now added a stipulation of "unless those people are alive on earth."

Furthermore, where does the Bible say that people in heaven "are not still alive"??? They are in the truest sense more alive than we are!

You see, the anti-praying-to-saints believer finds him or herself in quite a predicament. If the rule is "straight-to-Christ", then you have to discard Paul's authority to ask others for intercession (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ephesians%206:18-20;&version=31;). If the rule is "straight-to-Christ + those who are still alive on earth" then you have to believe those in heaven are dead and/or have no consciousness of our prayers...in which case you have to throw out the Transfiguration (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2017:1-6&version=31).

Jesus loves us and wants us to pray for each other and ask each other to pray for us. The Bible encourages to do so.

First of all, let me point out that I am in no such predicament as you list above. How silly of you. I pray to God and only to God. I don't pray to the dead saints, and I don't pray TO my fellow believers here on earth. If I require forgiveness from one, I ASK them. But I surely don't pray to them - do you?

I do, however, ask my fellow believers to pray to God for me, and to God with me. But notice, I said TO GOD, not to the saints. There is NOTHING in the bible that says we should pray to the saints. The passages listed here merely point out that we should pray to God.

Oh, and I don't know about you, but in my mind Christ is God. Praying to Jesus is the same as praying to God, but nice try to twisting my words. I'm getting fairly used to that around these parts! :wave:

[MrPolo]

First of all, let me point out that I am in no such predicament as you list above. How silly of you. I pray to God and only to God. I don't pray to the dead saints, and I don't pray TO my fellow believers here on earth. If I require forgiveness from one, I ASK them. But I surely don't pray to them - do you?

Oh, and I don't know about you, but in my mind Christ is God. Praying to Jesus is the same as praying to God, but nice try to twisting my words. I'm getting fairly used to that around these parts! :wave:

We are going to come to some common ground here PreachersWife!

I won't retread how those in heaven are still alive. You didn't address my Scripture on that, and that is fine.

But #1...YES! Christ is God! If I used them interchangeably, it is only because they are the same, and there was no attempt at trickery. I'm sorry if others have made you paranoid about that. You should pray to all Persons of the Trinity!

And #2...here is the common ground. The issue seems to be semantic. You said you don't "pray" to others, but you "ASK" them. Well, perhaps I assumed it was common knowledge, but Catholics understand that one form of prayer is "to ask." And when it comes to "praying to the Saints", all correctly practicing Catholics are "asking" them to make intercessory prayers on our behalf. Every time. If a Catholic is praying to a Saint asking them to do something other than pray on their behalf, or perhaps affording the Saint worship reserved only for God, this would of course be improper. And all I ever do is pray (aka "ask") to them to pray for me on my behalf.

In fact, the Catholic Catechism reads this way in paragraph 2684: "We can and should ask them to intercede for us and for the whole world." You see, when we "pray" to Saints, we are merely "asking" them to pray on our behalf...just like Paul asked those to whom he wrote!

So hopefully that clears it up.
And now that you know that this is the correct form for "praying to Saints", would you consider praying to someone in heaven to ask them to pray on your behalf?

[PreachersWife2004]

No, I wouldn't pray to someone in heaven other than God.

[MrPolo]

No, I wouldn't pray to someone in heaven other than God.

Ok, well, remember what I said about praying=asking! God bless, young lady! :thumbsup:

[Spiritofprophecy]

greetings in the name of Jesus: :hug:

dear Kepha31:

You did ask me why I dont respond to " Planned parenthood" well its not related to the thread topic, but to appease you, I will say, that Planned parent hood, does a measure of good, and yet is run and led by Godless people in theology and perspective. and causes people to sin and err in the things of God.

But as you are a brother in Jesus; I do not deny you, or excommunicate you, but accept you as Jesus commands, And I do not follow " Men" even if people call them Popes. A title of men, Not God.

So its One sided, I accept you, on your faith in Jesus alone, But you not me, on my faith in Jesus alone. And rejected by men. Which cannot be done. KJV colossians 2;20-22. Which I guess you interpret not in Spirit of Jesus. yet I forgive all. Jesus wants us to love.

I pray my words do no offend, God bless C.F. and all who use it. :wave:
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[plmarquette]

Boy, you are the one with the problem. As I said before you continue to pray to mary, angels and saints and I will continue to pray to God who not only hears prayers By His Spirit in us ( the body of Christ, not all churches) but answers them as well.
If you don't pray to Him and hear from Him and rather pray to angels and people who died.
Then you are not His.
romans 8 speaks of praying in all types of prayers ...

If your mom, grandma, uncle joe is at the throne , don't you think they say ... hey Jesus , Paul , Barnabus, Peter, can you check on my son, grandson?

In 45 years of being a cradle catholic I have seen no one pray to a statue, burn incense, leave gifts of food or drink ( as with hindus, buddhists, aztecs) the discussion is apples and oranges...

many statues , windows, paintings are to remind, relate the bible stories to a flock for for hundreds of years could neither read, nor afford books until gudenberg's printing press ... and after several hundreds of years of ornamentation , it , like many things , has become part of the worship, marking the building as a church to strangers ...

if your faith requires a metal building , simple wooden cross ( not at all like the rough hewn one Jesus was cruified on ), a communion table and stackable chairs...you are guilty of the same thing you accuse them of ... forms and traditions of men ...

the church is the body of believers, not the building or ceremony within ...

[PreachersWife2004]

I think what needs to happen here is a clarification based on the CC doctrine, that while you are praying to Mary or to a saint, that you are not praying for THEM to do the work, but that you are praying to them that they might take your petition to Jesus. There is a difference.

I still disagree with the notion as I pray directly to God because I know He hears all prayers,. But I think many get confused because they think that when a Catholic prays to Mary, they are praying for MARY to take care of their petition and not God.

[plmarquette]

First of all, let me point out that I am in no such predicament as you list above. How silly of you. I pray to God and only to God. I don't pray to the dead saints, and I don't pray TO my fellow believers here on earth. If I require forgiveness from one, I ASK them. But I surely don't pray to them - do you?

I do, however, ask my fellow believers to pray to God for me, and to God with me. But notice, I said TO GOD, not to the saints. There is NOTHING in the bible that says we should pray to the saints. The passages listed here merely point out that we should pray to God.

Oh, and I don't know about you, but in my mind Christ is God. Praying to Jesus is the same as praying to God, but nice try to twisting my words. I'm getting fairly used to that around these parts! :wave:
I am a cradle catholic... who 10 years ago found myself with evangelicals and word of faith people...learning the bible, earning bible school degrees ...

the thing protestants miss , being on the outside looking in, just as catholics miss stuff for the same reason ( assumptions, presumptions, and denominational bias) the refermation and inquisition are over! they did not work ... a man convinced against their will is of the same opinion still... a man offended is harder to win than a walled city ...

we were brought up with a homily , a way to relate to God and the people who went before us , who have and still are serving God ...

the holy family ... mary, joseph, and jesus ... a homily to demonstrate the responsibilities of a family and of our faith ... the mother advises, the father oversees...

we ask those who have gone first to ask Jesus ( intercession ... pray the Lord of the Harvest .. Matthew 18.15-21 ; Mark 11.23-4 )

if our folks are born again , have passed, they are in heaven ... what is wrong with saying mom, dad, put in a good word for me , I really messed up?

that for most catholics is the intercession of the saints as Paul speaks of in Hebrews of Jesus the new high priest and the sea of glass the billions of believers having church & praying for us down here...

[plmarquette]

How do the catholics view the "rapture" doctrine of the dispensationalists futurists? Thanks. :wave:
and how do you feel about spreading manure?

[JacktheCatholic]

I think what needs to happen here is a clarification based on the CC doctrine, that while you are praying to Mary or to a saint, that you are not praying for THEM to do the work, but that you are praying to them that they might take your petition to Jesus. There is a difference.

I still disagree with the notion as I pray directly to God because I know He hears all prayers,. But I think many get confused because they think that when a Catholic prays to Mary, they are praying for MARY to take care of their petition and not God.

Maybe you can answer this?

In a Sola Scriptura bible study I used to attend they said God hears everyone's prayer equally and God has no favorites.

This confused me because I understand God as being perfect and outside of time so that God never changes. If God never changes then he cannot hear all our prayers equally.

Scripture shows that God will not hear some prayers. It is also written that God has given relief to those he would not hear by one he favored giving intercessory prayer.

Does God hear everyone's prayer equally and God does not have favorites? :confused:

[david01]

There is ample evidence from scripture that God does not hear the prayers of the unrighteous (Psalms 18:41, 66:18, Proverbs 1:28, 28:9, Isaiah 1:15, and James 4:3).

[PreachersWife2004]

And honestly, I don't see the "unrighteous" doing much praying to God.

God does hear all prayers of all believers, though. And he even hears the prayers that we do not speak.

What makes you think that because God never changes God doesn't hear all prayers? He is omnipotent...even if we cannot fathom what that truly means.

[Mankin]

Prayer is a form of worship. I REFUSE to worship a saint. Besides, I don't even believe that the saints are in heaven anyway. I mean I believe they will be resurrected on Judgment Day but they are not in heaven right now. Anyway, who judges if a person is a saint anyway?

[JacktheCatholic]

You statement is like saying "I will never ask anyone for anything because asking is a part of worship."

Point is the word 'pray' can be used outside of prayer just as the word 'ask' can be used outside of prayer.

Prayer is a form of worship. I REFUSE to worship a saint. Besides, I don't even believe that the saints are in heaven anyway. I mean I believe they will be resurrected on Judgment Day but they are not in heaven right now. Anyway, who judges if a person is a saint anyway?

Did you know that the saying "we are to pray as beggers" has a relation to what the word "pray" means?

That in England legaleaze the word pray is used as "beg", "plead" or "ask strongly"?

So when I pray to God, I am begging God. Or if I pray to Mary or a Saint I am pleading to them to plead to God.

[JacktheCatholic]

And honestly, I don't see the "unrighteous" doing much praying to God.

God does hear all prayers of all believers, though. And he even hears the prayers that we do not speak.

What makes you think that because God never changes God doesn't hear all prayers? He is omnipotent...even if we cannot fathom what that truly means.


I have been unrighteous in the past and I was full of prayer. Sometimes it is the unrighteous that finds themselves in situations where they have no way out and it is prayer that most resort to.

But, I was referring to an OT script where God would not hear the people and only would listen to their representative. Do you know the scripture I speak of?

[garry2]

You statement is like saying "I will never ask anyone for anything because asking is a part of worship."

Point is the word 'pray' can be used outside of prayer just as the word 'ask' can be used outside of prayer.



Did you know that the saying "we are to pray as beggers" has a relation to what the word "pray" means?

That in England legaleaze the word pray is used as "beg", "plead" or "ask strongly"?

So when I pray to God, I am begging God. Or if I pray to Mary or a Saint I am pleading to them to plead to God.
But how do you know they hear you, in the Bible where prayer is mentioned it is always to God and not to mary or saints.

[JacktheCatholic]

But how do you know they hear you, in the Bible where prayer is mentioned it is always to God and not to mary or saints.

Good question. This took me awhile after I became Catholic.

First we know that when we are baptized we become a temple for the Holy Spirit because God is in us and we are in God. Secondly we know that God is a God of the living and not the dead speaking spiritually that is. So, being spirits in God we communicate with God by this divine connection that we have from Jesus and his sacrifice.

What Catholics teach is that since angels and Saints are in Heaven with God that we as saints in Christ on earth can communicate with the Holy Spirit to others alive in Christ in Heaven. Jesus is the head and we make the body, spiritually speaking of course. Becuase we are all connected in life when we pray to angels and saints in Heaven our messages are delivered through the Holy Spirit. We are all connected.

[garry2]

Good question. This took me awhile after I became Catholic.

First we know that when we are baptized we become a temple for the Holy Spirit because God is in us and we are in God. Secondly we know that God is a God of the living and not the dead speaking spiritually that is. So, being spirits in God we communicate with God by this divine connection that we have from Jesus and his sacrifice.

What Catholics teach is that since angels and Saints are in Heaven with God that we as saints in Christ on earth can communicate with the Holy Spirit to others alive in Christ in Heaven.
With respect I don't know where the catholic church gets that from, Im sure it's not from the Bible.
Jesus is the head and we make the body, spiritually speaking of course. Becuase we are all connected in life when we pray to angels and saints in Heaven our messages are delivered through the Holy Spirit. We are all connected.
We pray to God through the Holy Spirit but Gods Word does not say anything about us being connected to angels and saints through the Holy Spirit.

[Philothei]

Can I ask why it is important for Catholics and protestans to have polemical sites for each other and us Orthodox??

I want a plain answer... not theological... I am not interested... Is evangelization to brother Christians wrong? Where are the ethics of doing that?

God bless,
Philothei

[PreachersWife2004]

Well, mainly because we all have different beliefs, and we'd like to be able to discuss those beliefs in relative peace. Having separate forums can help keep the peace, and then we have the threads like this where we can all learn stuff.

There is no wrong in evangelizing, but respect can be afforded to those that believe differently than we do.

[Philothei]

Maybe you missunderstood my post I was talking about : polemical sites , not fourms in this site... I was talking about sites like these:

http://www.chnetwork.org/

You do not find such sites for us Orthodox. you can find some that pinpoint differences but these sites are straight out polemics.... I think....

God bless,
Philothei

[Philothei]

BTW I love your saying under your name :)

God bless,
Philothei

[PreachersWife2004]

Maybe you missunderstood my post I was talking about : polemical sites , not fourms in this site... I was talking about sites like these:

http://www.chnetwork.org/

You do not find such sites for us Orthodox. you can find some that pinpoint differences but these sites are straight out polemics.... I think....

God bless,
Philothei

Hmm..I guess maybe someone just needs to start some. I dunno...I guess I can't answer your question. We Lutherans have a lot of non-polemic sites that people start, as well as our own synod web sites. We're blessed that way, I suppose.

If you were referring to my signature, thank you. It is one of my favorite bible passage - might even be my favorite.

:hug:

[Philothei]

I'm but a stranger here...Heaven is my home!


I was refering to this^ cool :)

[Philothei]

BTW thanks for the answer too :)

[PreachersWife2004]

Oh THAT saying. THAT is one of my favorite hymns!! :-)