I have a Question about Predestination and Free Will

[david1988]

http://aycu01.webshots.com/image/18200/2003652210552884399_fs.jpg

It's my understanding that God knows all.

He already knows the exact time down to the exact minute and seconds that I will die.

And he already knows every thought and decision I will make in my life.

I'm sort of confused on the subject of Free Will and Predestination.

I was told that God knew that Adam and Eve would fall in the Garden, that it was part of his plan to draw man back to him.

If God already knows everything I will say and do in my life, doesn't that mean I've been predestined to do and say everything that I do and say? Where is the Free Will if God already knows everything about me, including everything I will say and do in my life from beginning to end?

d@vid :thumbsup:

[AvgJoe]

Just because God knows everything about you does not mean that He made/will make you do those things. Make sense?

[malckiah]

Ok, 1. God is all-knowing and knows everything you will do and say throughout your life.

2. You have freewill and get to choose what you will say and do throughout your life.

I don't understand where there is confusion....you have a choice to do what you wish and God knows what you will choose!

As far as predestination.....we have a choice, God knows what we will choose. You might ask, well why would God create someone that He knows will deny Him and go to hell?!......Well i have an answer and an example for you on that one....

God's ways are higher than our ways....we cannot begin to fathom God.

But imagine that person says something or does something one day that in some way helps to lead someone else to Jesus...even though that may not have been their intension.....well that person that was lead to Jesus lead several more people to Jesus.......and it all started with one person who ended up denying Jesus in the end.
well, that one person may have chosen hell, but that persons existence helped to bring all those others to salvation.

My point......God gives us a choice. We do not see the full picture that God see's. We are predestined by our choice, but God knows in advance what we will choose.
He predestines those who will choose Him to adoption and salvation. But it is always the freewill of man that makes the choice.
God Bless!

[sinneD]

David...

This discussion has been going on for a millennium, and if the likes of such men as Martin Luther and John Calvin were not able to resolve all the questions, then certainly we on this forum are not going to be able to do so either.

Like yourself, I am a firm believer in the Sovereignty of God.. I feel that the bible clearly teaches that we are predestined, foreordained by God. It is not man that choses, it is God.

When it comes to the this, I suggest that there are two views.. and in our human state , we will neve be able to resolve the apparent differences.

From mans view, we make choices, we are in control, and we determine the outcome based upon the choices we make.

But from God's perspective, the choices are entirely His and His alone, and nothing we do can change the outcome of what God has already pre-ordained.

It is one of those areas we will never be able to explain while on this earth. It is similar to the Trinity - how can God be Three in One ? It doesn't make sense, yet scripture clearly teaches it.. There are many things we will learn when we are in Heaven - Freewill, Predestination and the Trinity are certainly some of those.

I hope that helps some..

Dennis

[7angel]

Our rebellion or disobedience, it is sign of our free will
the issue is, we revolt ourselves against the evil ? - or against the good ?
God knows it all, by this reason would have to be our guide, and it is -
God is good.

David was predestined to be King of Israel -
predestined to occupy a position, God was knowing the faithfulness of David , but David was acting freely

[DeanM]

A good third-grade schoolteacher can look at a new student, and in about 2 minutes, know what kind of grade that student is going to get for the year. Will the teacher know what will specifically cause this student to get a certain grade? No. But the teacher can still tell.

Multiply the insight of this teacher, and the specificness of the details by an infinite amount, and you have God.

The student may miss 5 homework assignments. Does the teacher know ahead of time which ones? No. But God would know.

Does the kid have free will? Sure. Otherwise, he wouldn't miss any of the homework assignments.

God knows what you are going to do, yet you have free will to mess up just like he knows you are going to.

Can you change yourself for the better? God hopes that you do, and knows ahead of time whether you will or not.

The choice is still yours (free will), but God knows what you are going to do before you do it.

[RefrusRevlis]

A good third-grade schoolteacher can look at a new student, and in about 2 minutes, know what kind of grade that student is going to get for the year. Will the teacher know what will specifically cause this student to get a certain grade? No. But the teacher can still tell.


I'm a third-grade teacher, yet sometimes I am surprised by the progress of students from the beginning of the year to the end. This is not because I am not a good teacher, it is because I am not omnicient.

God had foreknowledge, he is omnicient. We have free will, otherwise the admonitions to "choose" (eg Josh 24:15) would be pointless, as we would have no choice in the matter. When God chose some people before the beginning of time, he did not choose individuals, but he did choose the method of their salvation.

Ephesians 1:4-5
4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself,

Ephesians 3:11

 "according to the eternal purpose which He accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord,"

Look to see how many times "in Christ" occurs in Ephesians. This is the determing factor. God predestined (set out the boundaries in advance). It was anyone "in Christ" would be chosen by him. and they would be holy and without blame before Him. This does not mean God selected every individual, rather he those the method (i.e.via his Son).

Refrus

[solo56]

Here's a link to a 6 part message concerning "predestination" The downloads are free.

Click Here (http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?currSection=sermonsspeaker&sermonID=1280383530)

[pgp_protector]

I know service will end tonight.
I am not making service end tonight

[ToxicReboMan]

Why put a limit on Almighty God? I believe it is possible for God to have foreknowledge of the future and for man to have freewill at the same time.

[pgp_protector]

Why put a limit on Almighty God? I believe it is possible for God to have foreknowledge of the future and for man to have freewill at the same time.
Yes

[everestboi]

im cold

[everestboi]

im drinking a hot drink

[IrishGuy070890]

If we are all predestined to go either to heaven or hell, then that meens that before we were born, God chose for that individual to turn down God. that don't make sense to me.

[JTLauder]

The problem is that we are truely to understand something beyond our comprehension. It's like trying to explain to your dog where his food comes from.

We are finite creatures and we think in finite concepts. Our entire lives revolve around the past and future and living in the present and our minds can only grasp knowledge and perception in that linear timeline. We can try to perceive things that might happen in the future, but until that future comes, we can never be sure of its outcome. We can only be sure of that past and all our actions center on carrying out an action in the present moment.

God is infinite. He exists outside our understanding of time. He sees all the past and future, and lives not only in the present. He can see the future the same way we can see the past--as if it has already happened. That's what omniscient and omnipresent means.

God gives us free will to decide what our own actions will be, and God has already seen what decisions and actions we will take.

[Nurbz]

WE ARE OVER-COMPLICATING THE SITUATION

Consider how God looks at our life as we look at a tree:
-A tree begins with a trunk
-The trunk splits off into limbs and limbs to branches, and branches to twigs
-consider each fork a choice
-you can see the end of every limb so consider that a path in a person's life
-looking at a tree as a whole is an example of viewing one's life and each path they might take depending on the choices

That is how God knows every possibility while giving us free will

[Michael22]

I don't think this is a very simple question at all. While I do believe we have free will to make our own choices, I also believe that God elects who will become a Christian.

Sounds awful and unfair doesn't it?

As much as I wish I coud believe we have 100% free will and we choose rather or not we're a Christian, that's not what the Bible says in Romans 6-8. Read that to yourself, and though you may hate what it says, it's still the Word of God.

So in reality, it's a mix of both in my opinion.

[Squnk]

First off, I am a four-point Calvinist. I am biased, but a year ago I wasn't Calvinistic at all, so I do know both sides well. Second, I agree with Michael22's post above.

Also, there's a debate on what it means for God to be omniscient. None of the sides of the argument says He doesn't know everything, but they disagree on what is the limit of things to know. Three major sects:
Present Knowledge (PK): God knows every little detail of everything that has happened up to this point.
Simple Foreknowledge (SFK): God knows everything that has happened in the past, and what will necessarilly happen in the future. This does not force an Armenian or a Calvinistic stance.
Middle Foreknowledge (MK): God knows everything in the past, what will happen in the future, and what could happen in the future.

An example to better explain:
Billy is hungry. He sees an apple. Two options: Ignore it or eat it.
Present Knowledge: God knows what Billy's past decisions have been, and so could pretty accurately predict what he will do in this situation.
Simple Foreknowledge: God knows which option Billy will pick.
Middle Foreknowledge: God knows what would happen if Billy ate the apple, and what would happen if he ignored it. God also knows which option Billy will choose.

To expand on the base-line of freewill according to basic Calvinistic doctrine. Humans have freewill in that all choices are up to them, however, because of the total depravity of man's sinful nature, all choices made will necessarilly be sinful. E.g. If a non-believer is in the checkout aisle of a store and sees a candy bar and he wants it, two choices are presented: Buy it or steal it. Normally, we would all say that's a good and a bad side. I struggled with this for a couple of months, trying to reconcile it with the verses that state that all man's nature is sinful, that all acts of man are sinful. How could buying the candy be sinful? Look at what he would rather do: Steal it. No need to spend money on it. Why doesn't he? Selfishness. Doesn't want to get caught, goto jail, have to pay a fine, etc. The love of money is the root of all evil. Love of money = greed = selfishness. So for a non-believer, to buy that candy bar or to steal it, either way he's acting in greed. He is free to make up his mind as to which action to take, but he cannot choose a "righteous" or "holy" course of action.

[plmarquette]

http://www.joyfultoons.com/toons/faithfuel.jpg
ephesians 1.5,11 and other scriptures ... we have a potential ... a destiny ... we choose to accept , be trained , and empowered or to run away ...

many times , God makes people an offer they cannot refuse ... so to speak ... like Jonah ..

[david1988]

The problem is that we are truely to understand something beyond our comprehension. It's like trying to explain to your dog where his food comes from.

We are finite creatures and we think in finite concepts. Our entire lives revolve around the past and future and living in the present and our minds can only grasp knowledge and perception in that linear timeline. We can try to perceive things that might happen in the future, but until that future comes, we can never be sure of its outcome. We can only be sure of that past and all our actions center on carrying out an action in the present moment.

God is infinite. He exists outside our understanding of time. He sees all the past and future, and lives not only in the present. He can see the future the same way we can see the past--as if it has already happened. That's what omniscient and omnipresent means.

God gives us free will to decide what our own actions will be, and God has already seen what decisions and actions we will take.
God is infinite. He exists outside our understanding of time. He sees all the past and future, and lives not only in the present. He can see the future the same way we can see the past--as if it has already happened. That's what omniscient and omnipresent means.

God gives us free will to decide what our own actions will be, and God has already seen what decisions and actions we will take.

WOW! What a great answer! This really helped me to understand that I really do have a free will.

But, as you said, God already knows the choices I will make during my life, and I'm responsible for making those choices.

This makes perfect sense to me.

[david1988]

http://www.joyfultoons.com/toons/faithfuel.jpg
ephesians 1.5,11 and other scriptures ... we have a potential ... a destiny ... we choose to accept , be trained , and empowered or to run away ...

many times , God makes people an offer they cannot refuse ... so to speak ... like Jonah ..
Awesome Cartoon! Thanks for posting it. I'm a very visual person. And as the old saying goes, "A picture is worth a 1000 words" . . .

[are0z0ne]

Say that starting now, you will be monitored by a person/entity until the end of your life. They perceive everything about you: your thoughts, your actions, your feelings. All of that is remembered perfectly. Then say that the entity stretches across time and so the entity "now" knows what it "will" know at the end of your life. The entity knows what you do. (Or, conversely, it goes back in time and so knows everything you will do before you do it.) Remember that God is not bound to limits of time like we are. He is everywhere, all the time. He is also one completeness in His self. God is omniscient, knowing all. Since we are not omniscient, we cannot even begin to try to comprehend merely contemplating what that truly means and what that implies.

[calidog]

http://aycu01.webshots.com/image/18200/2003652210552884399_fs.jpg

It's my understanding that God knows all.

He already knows the exact time down to the exact minute and seconds that I will die.

And he already knows every thought and decision I will make in my life.

I'm sort of confused on the subject of Free Will and Predestination.

I was told that God knew that Adam and Eve would fall in the Garden, that it was part of his plan to draw man back to him.

If God already knows everything I will say and do in my life, doesn't that mean I've been predestined to do and say everything that I do and say? Where is the Free Will if God already knows everything about me, including everything I will say and do in my life from beginning to end?

d@vid :thumbsup:
your entire life from God's perspective is predestined.
from your perspective you operate on free-will.
both are true, so make wise choices on the opportunities God brings you (and me and all of us)

[Eleknar]

All I know is...........Jesus loves you :)

[lily00]

http://aycu01.webshots.com/image/18200/2003652210552884399_fs.jpg

It's my understanding that God knows all.

He already knows the exact time down to the exact minute and seconds that I will die.

And he already knows every thought and decision I will make in my life.

I'm sort of confused on the subject of Free Will and Predestination.

I was told that God knew that Adam and Eve would fall in the Garden, that it was part of his plan to draw man back to him.

If God already knows everything I will say and do in my life, doesn't that mean I've been predestined to do and say everything that I do and say? Where is the Free Will if God already knows everything about me, including everything I will say and do in my life from beginning to end?

d@vid :thumbsup:
I believe in a limited will. Of course, God is in control of all things, but He didn't make us as robots. Every single breath we take isn't predestined, nor do I think that the clothes we pick out in the morning to wear are predestined. It could or could not at times just as it could or could not at times be predestined for a person to become a missionary. If it fits into God's perfect will though, then it can or will be.

My pastor described it to me this way. We are inside a small box and anything inside of that box is the decisions that we make. Everything outside of the box is God's sovereignty and predestining, so you make every decision as if it is your own, inquiring of God to let His will be done! :hug: God bless!

[calidog]

God brings things (choices) into our lives, knowing what choices we'll make.

[james415]

The Old Testament is about the first covenant which is about man believing he is separate from God (Man believes man is the source of what man has and does).

The New Testament is about the second covenant which is about man believing he is one with God (Man believes God is the source of what man has and does).

Christ is the seed that grew the tree of all creation. In Him was Gods plan, Gods will for all that is, was, or ever will be. All you have to do is believe that Christ lives in you. Believe that all you are and do is the will of God. (Philippians 2:13 “for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.”)
(John 15:5 "I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.”)

[Lightbearer3]

Don't have time to read all the posts right now...when I come back today I'll have more time...very good question, one of the best I've seen on Cf. I have an answer but want to read the other posts first so that if someone has already gave my stance....