Should we still be practicing Orthodox Christianity?

[ZipporahMoses]

Disclaimer:
This is my first post, and I don’t want anyone to get offended or defensive about my question. I am just trying to figure some things out.

I know that in the New Testament there are several sections where basically it is stated that we are free from the Old Testament. Paul says “2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death” Romans 8:2.

So does it make any sense to go on and continue to practice and follow outdated laws and rituals that have already been cancelled out?

[Monica, child of God]

Welcome Zipporah!

What practices are you speaking of specifically? The practices of the Orthodox Church are directly from the early Church. Because the first Christians were Jewish, some of the rites harken back to the Old Covenant but are given new "light" through the revelation of Christ. But again, it would be good to begin with specific practices that you question.

Monica

[Rowan]

Welcome to TAW ZipporahMoses! I love your user name :)

[Christiangal01]

Welcome Zipporah!

What practices are you speaking of specifically? The practices of the Orthodox Church are directly from the early Church. Because the first Christians were Jewish, some of the rites harken back to the Old Covenant but are given new "light" through the revelation of Christ. But again, it would be good to begin with specific practices that you question.

Monica
I too would like some context

[Shubunkin]

I find the Orthodox Church gets away from the OT legalism as much as it should be. Still, the practices of the OT pointed to Christ, and now we show the fulfillment of that. I see that as something good. :)

By the way, welcome to TAW! It's good to see new members here.

[eoe]

Heaven help us.

I would suggest you read On the Incarnation (http://www.spurgeon.org/%7Ephil/history/ath-inc.htm) by St. Athanasius and stop listening to protestants.

[Shubunkin]

. . . and stop listening to protestants.

I think you hit the nail on the head. :thumbsup:

[SeraphimSarov]

stop listening to protestants.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[ZipporahMoses]

Thank you everyone for your interest in my question.

Let me start off by saying, I’m not sure if or how much the Ethiopian Orthodox Church may differ from other Eastern Orthodox Churches in their enforcement of certain laws from the Old Testament, but these are just a few examples of what rules I have had to follow since my childhood growing up in the Orthodox religion.

In the Old Testament specifically starting in Leviticus 11 there are extensive and detailed notes on what foods are ritually clean and ritually unclean. “You may eat any animal that has a divided hoof and that chews the cud. There are some that only chew the cud or only have a divided hoof, but you must not eat them.” Leviticus 11:3-11:4.

However, in the New Testament those restrictions are refuted by Jesus when he says "Listen and understand. 11What goes into a man's mouth does not make him 'unclean,' but what comes out of his mouth that is what makes him 'unclean.' Matthew 15:10.
17"Don't you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? 18But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man 'unclean.' Matthew 15:17- Matthew 15:18

Another example is when a woman is considered unclean during her period. “…she is unclean during her monthly period.” Leviticus 12:2
“She must not touch anything sacred or go to the sanctuary until the days of her purification are over.” Leviticus 12:4

So for nearly my whole life I have been following these laws then one day it was brought to my attention that the rules that have governed over my life so strictly have been essentially cancelled out by Paul with the verse “2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death” Romans 8:2.
So of course this took me back and sparked my question of “if we are free from the law of sin and death through Christ then why do we still have to follow these old laws?” Or if we are to follow the old testament why don’t we follow ALL of the rules like the on about not being allowed to wear two types of fabric at once? I mean if we are going to follow the Old Testament we should take it as a whole, and not break it up into bits and pieces of what we want and choose to follow, right?

P.S.

As for the comment made about me listening to Protestants, let’s not turn this into one of those debates because that isn’t my point at all. The verses in my opinion speak for themselves and are straight from the Bible. My questions are valid in their points of curiosity and do not come from a place to insult or suggest that the Orthodox religion is mistaken in their interpretation of the bible. This by the way would be ridiculous as I myself associate with and consider myself a member of the denomination. I am just a girl who is trying to reconnect and rediscover her faith. As for the suggested book, I will consider whether or not I will read it after I have finished reading and getting all of my answers from the one book with all of the answers, my handy-dandy bible.

[Monica, child of God]

Oh I understand now. Yes, the Ethiopian Tewahedo Church differs in this from the Eastern Orthodox Church. The Eastern Orthodox Church does not have any prohibition of foods. Pork and shellfish are freely eaten. Women are allowed to go to church, kiss icons and what ever else during their monthly periods. Some Eastern Orthodox priests will instruct their spiritual daughters to refrain from communion during menstruation but this is increasingly rare. In any case if an Eastern Orthodox woman is taught refrain from partaking of communion while menstruating it is not because she is unclean. It has to do with the way some people understand mentruation and whether the Blood of the Eucharist will somehow escape from her body. We don't have states of ritual impurity.

For clarification on the "whys" of Ethiopian Tewahedo practice you will need to inquire in The Voice In The Desert - Oriental Orthodox (http://www.christianforums.com/f449) subforum of Christian Forums. That forum is for Coptic, Ethiopian, Armenian and other Oriental Orthodox. But of course you are welcome to frequent our forum too :) we just won't be able to answer questions about your Church.

M.

[Xpycoctomos]

Just wanted to say "Hi Zipporah!" :) and aske where you are from. Did you grow up in Ethipia or in the States or somewhere else?

John

[MariaRegina]

Hi Zipporah.

[Shubunkin]

Zipporah, please don't misunderstand us. We get a lot of Protestants through here asking the same type of questions! :blush: They think we follow the OT laws, are legalistic, etc., etc., and it's not true. Sorry if you feel offended by that reaction, but your questions could better be answered at the Voice in the Desert (http://www.christianforums.com/f449) forum, perhaps. :hug:

[eoe]

Law of sin and death != "The Law"

Christ is risen from the dead, by death he has trampled upon death and to those in the tombs he has bestowed life. For a Christian there is no death. This is the law of sin and death that he is referring to. Sin = removal from the source of life and subsequently death.

Again - please consider reading On the Incarnation.

[Ioan cel Nou]

Oh I understand now. Yes, the Ethiopian Tewahedo Church differs in this from the Eastern Orthodox Church. The Eastern Orthodox Church does not have any prohibition of foods. Pork and shellfish are freely eaten. Women are allowed to go to church, kiss icons and what ever else during their monthly periods. Some Eastern Orthodox priests will instruct their spiritual daughters to refrain from communion during menstruation but this is increasingly rare. In any case if an Eastern Orthodox woman is taught refrain from partaking of communion while menstruating it is not because she is unclean. It has to do with the way some people understand mentruation and whether the Blood of the Eucharist will somehow escape from her body. We don't have states of ritual impurity.

For clarification on the "whys" of Ethiopian Tewahedo practice you will need to inquire in The Voice In The Desert - Oriental Orthodox (http://www.christianforums.com/f449) subforum of Christian Forums. That forum is for Coptic, Ethiopian, Armenian and other Oriental Orthodox. But of course you are welcome to frequent our forum too :) we just won't be able to answer questions about your Church.

M.
You're undoubtedly right about this in principle, but in practice you will find people who act as though women are unclean when on their period, though I've yet to come across one who will say so straight out. My mother-in-law, for instance, will not step foot in a church at that time of the month, though if you were to ask her why she'd simply say that it's wrong without any explanation. Such an attitude seems to be common amongst rural folk in the old countries, even younger ones (my wife was a little surprised when she was told not to stay away at that time when she first came here). I've also heard people from some Orthodox countries arguing that we shouldn't eat blood. I don't think that either idea is right or taught by the Church, but they are certainly attitudes that one comes across relatively frequently amongst certain communities of Orthodox Christians.

James

[buzuxi02]

Many of these things are cultural. Jesus never condemned a people's customs . Thus the intent of the person needs to be taken into consideration.
The council of Acts 15 forbade christian-jews from judaising the gentiles but NEVER said that christian- jews cannot practise their cutlure and customs or need to stop circumcising or stop being "kosher".

Early Ethiopia was influenced by Judaism, more than any other country on earth, so many apsects of the OT are observed and are part of their heritage.

Those who think one is "sinning" because he is observant of certain OT practises needs to take "human sociology 101". In Christianity you only only sin when you try to enforce your customs onto another people and these customs are not neccesary for spiritual growth.

[MariaRegina]

Many of these things are cultural. Jesus never condemned a people's customs . Thus the intent of the person needs to be taken into consideration.
The council of Acts 15 forbade christian-jews from judaising the gentiles but NEVER said that christian- jews cannot practise their cutlure and customs or need to stop circumcising or stop being "kosher".

Early Ethiopia was influenced by Judaism, more than any other country on earth, so many apsects of the OT are observed and are part of their heritage.

Those who think one is "sinning" because he is observant of certain OT practises needs to take "human sociology 101". In Christianity you only only sin when you try to enforce your customs onto another people and these customs are not neccesary for spiritual growth.

That is not surprising, considering that the sons of the Queen of Sheba were raised as Hebrews.

[choirfiend]

Thank you everyone for your interest in my question.

Let me start off by saying, I’m not sure if or how much the Ethiopian Orthodox Church may differ from other Eastern Orthodox Churches in their enforcement of certain laws from the Old Testament, but these are just a few examples of what rules I have had to follow since my childhood growing up in the Orthodox religion.

In the Old Testament specifically starting in Leviticus 11 there are extensive and detailed notes on what foods are ritually clean and ritually unclean. “You may eat any animal that has a divided hoof and that chews the cud. There are some that only chew the cud or only have a divided hoof, but you must not eat them.” Leviticus 11:3-11:4.

However, in the New Testament those restrictions are refuted by Jesus when he says "Listen and understand. 11What goes into a man's mouth does not make him 'unclean,' but what comes out of his mouth that is what makes him 'unclean.' Matthew 15:10.
17"Don't you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? 18But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man 'unclean.' Matthew 15:17- Matthew 15:18

Another example is when a woman is considered unclean during her period. “…she is unclean during her monthly period.” Leviticus 12:2
“She must not touch anything sacred or go to the sanctuary until the days of her purification are over.” Leviticus 12:4

So for nearly my whole life I have been following these laws then one day it was brought to my attention that the rules that have governed over my life so strictly have been essentially cancelled out by Paul with the verse “2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death” Romans 8:2.
So of course this took me back and sparked my question of “if we are free from the law of sin and death through Christ then why do we still have to follow these old laws?” Or if we are to follow the old testament why don’t we follow ALL of the rules like the on about not being allowed to wear two types of fabric at once? I mean if we are going to follow the Old Testament we should take it as a whole, and not break it up into bits and pieces of what we want and choose to follow, right?

P.S.

As for the comment made about me listening to Protestants, let’s not turn this into one of those debates because that isn’t my point at all. The verses in my opinion speak for themselves and are straight from the Bible. My questions are valid in their points of curiosity and do not come from a place to insult or suggest that the Orthodox religion is mistaken in their interpretation of the bible. This by the way would be ridiculous as I myself associate with and consider myself a member of the denomination. I am just a girl who is trying to reconnect and rediscover her faith. As for the suggested book, I will consider whether or not I will read it after I have finished reading and getting all of my answers from the one book with all of the answers, my handy-dandy bible.
I'm glad you know your scriptures---but beware thinking that the meaning is simply apparent! You have questions about these verses right now--so I think that shows that the meaning isn't just obvious. Additionally, you're asking questions of us--which is good, because the Orthodox Church DOES have the answers!--but if you would learn of us, or learn of other people, you can see that you need help understanding some Bible things from sources outside of the Bible--and just because something else is a book, doesn't mean it doesn't explain who Christ is in a way that will help you to better understand the meaning of your Bible in the first place. We're pointing you to what the very first Christians had to say about Christ, the Law, and everything else--and we're doing so because we believe the same as them.

I think it's good to say one more time that one shouldn't confuse "the law of sin and death" with the OT laws. Just because they are both called laws doesn't mean they are the same thing. Christ also said the "law of the Spirit of life," and THAT law is obviously not a bad thing--why couldn't THAT law be the OT laws? Now, clearly, neither of these two references to "laws" is referring to the OT dietary and religious restrictions and practices. And appreciating this point is how you can see, like the Ethiopian Eunuch, that one cannot understand the Scriptures alone, but must be instructed. Paul was instructing--so did the other Apostles--and their instruction continues today in the Orthodox Church.

So please, ask more questions!

[Monica, child of God]

Many of these things are cultural. Jesus never condemned a people's customs . Thus the intent of the person needs to be taken into consideration.
The council of Acts 15 forbade christian-jews from judaising the gentiles but NEVER said that christian- jews cannot practise their cutlure and customs or need to stop circumcising or stop being "kosher".

Early Ethiopia was influenced by Judaism, more than any other country on earth, so many apsects of the OT are observed and are part of their heritage.

Those who think one is "sinning" because he is observant of certain OT practises needs to take "human sociology 101". In Christianity you only only sin when you try to enforce your customs onto another people and these customs are not neccesary for spiritual growth.

You're undoubtedly right about this in principle, but in practice you will find people who act as though women are unclean when on their period, though I've yet to come across one who will say so straight out. My mother-in-law, for instance, will not step foot in a church at that time of the month, though if you were to ask her why she'd simply say that it's wrong without any explanation. Such an attitude seems to be common amongst rural folk in the old countries, even younger ones (my wife was a little surprised when she was told not to stay away at that time when she first came here). I've also heard people from some Orthodox countries arguing that we shouldn't eat blood. I don't think that either idea is right or taught by the Church, but they are certainly attitudes that one comes across relatively frequently amongst certain communities of Orthodox Christians.

James

I agree with you both. I would never dissuade a woman from following her spiriual father's direction or her own cultural customs. That is not my place which is why I urged Zipporah to consult with her fellow churchmen and women as to the "whys" of their customs. I only stated that in the EOC pork, shellfish and other non-kashrut foods are freely eaten and we do not have states of ritual impurity.

As to Eastern Orthodox who keep the custom of kashrut or refraining from communion during menstruation, I have no problem with it if the reason is obedience to one's SF, keeping custom not to scandalize others or personal adherance to one's cultural standards. It is a matter of choice and culture. But I will always speak against the idea that a woman is unclean during her periods. The theology behind ritual impurity as practiced in the OT is not a principle upheld in the NT or the Church. We can have many different customs but we have one theology.

M.

[Christiangal01]

Zipporah, please don't misunderstand us. We get a lot of Protestants through here asking the same type of questions! :blush: They think we follow the OT laws, are legalistic, etc., etc., and it's not true. Sorry if you feel offended by that reaction, but your questions could better be answered at the Voice in the Desert (http://www.christianforums.com/f449) forum, perhaps. :hug:
I notice your profile...is the one only apostolic church Greek Orthodox?

[NyssaTheHobbit]

You're undoubtedly right about this in principle, but in practice you will find people who act as though women are unclean when on their period, though I've yet to come across one who will say so straight out. My mother-in-law, for instance, will not step foot in a church at that time of the month, though if you were to ask her why she'd simply say that it's wrong without any explanation. Such an attitude seems to be common amongst rural folk in the old countries, even younger ones (my wife was a little surprised when she was told not to stay away at that time when she first came here). I've also heard people from some Orthodox countries arguing that we shouldn't eat blood. I don't think that either idea is right or taught by the Church, but they are certainly attitudes that one comes across relatively frequently amongst certain communities of Orthodox Christians.

James

When I asked my priest about this, he said he had never heard of this before, refraining during a period. He said it was overzealous. As for eating blood, all my life I've been told not to eat blood. Doesn't that apply to everybody, since it was said not to Moses, but to Noah???

[authiodionitist]

I notice your profile...is the one only apostolic church Greek Orthodox?
The One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church is the Orthodox Church, of which the Greek Orthodox Church under the Patriarch of Constantinople is one jurisdiction among many. Aside from our jurisdictionalism, we share the same Faith and practices, varying from one jurisdiction to the next based on calendar, food, and music.

[Ioan cel Nou]

When I asked my priest about this, he said he had never heard of this before, refraining during a period. He said it was overzealous. As for eating blood, all my life I've been told not to eat blood. Doesn't that apply to everybody, since it was said not to Moses, but to Noah???
Well in rural Romania, the exact opposite of your experience is the norm - women do not commune during their period (in fact most won't step foot inside a church) and they do make and eat black pudding type sausages. I have been told in no uncertain circumstances (by clergy, to be clear) that the avoiding of church during menstruation is cultural rather than Church teaching and is one practice (like infrequent communion) that ought to be discouraged. I've also been told in equally no nonsense terms that the prohibition on blood is not something Orthodox Christians must keep.

If I recall correctly, the Noahide law to do with blood is usually interpreted as not eating part of a living animal, because Jewish belief was once that the life was in the blood. I'd have to say, though, that even if you don't eat black pudding, if you eat meat you are eating blood, unless you're actually sticking to Kosher meat, so I don't think any Orthodox actually keep to the Noahoide laws if interpreted in that literal a way. Of course, I believe that such an interpretation is too literal and, to be honest, I fail to see why the NT shouldn't trump the Noahide Laws. The fact that we are told in the NT that what goes into a man doesn't defile him but what comes out of him does, is sufficient for me to conclude that there are no prohibitions of food of any type for Christians (though in my case this is rather academic as I don't like black pudding and wouldn't eat it anyway).

James

[ma2000]

You're undoubtedly right about this in principle, but in practice you will find people who act as though women are unclean when on their period, though I've yet to come across one who will say so straight out. My mother-in-law, for instance, will not step foot in a church at that time of the month, though if you were to ask her why she'd simply say that it's wrong without any explanation. Such an attitude seems to be common amongst rural folk in the old countries, even younger ones (my wife was a little surprised when she was told not to stay away at that time when she first came here). I've also heard people from some Orthodox countries arguing that we shouldn't eat blood. I don't think that either idea is right or taught by the Church, but they are certainly attitudes that one comes across relatively frequently amongst certain communities of Orthodox Christians.

James


It's a common practice in Romania.
The general view is that women can enter in the church during that time if they are clean and prevent the blood from dropping, but are not allowed to touch anything holy. Some priests are completely against women entering the church during those 8 days and there are some views that there should be no restriction.

http://www.crestinortodox.ro/Necuratia_femeii_si_viata_bisericeasca-23-397.html

However, in the older books it sais the women shouldn't enter the church.

http://www.sfaturiortodoxe.ro/sfintelecanoane.htm

[Dust and Ashes]

I always thought the avoidance of blood was from Acts 15:29 and 21:25 or does that refer to some other use/misuse of blood?

[NyssaTheHobbit]

It's a common practice in Romania.
The general view is that women can enter in the church during that time if they are clean and prevent the blood from dropping

That should be easy enough these days, with maxipads.

I always thought the avoidance of blood was from Acts 15:29 and 21:25 or does that refer to some other use/misuse of blood?

That's right, I forgot about that.

[Xpycoctomos]

[Purely personal Opinion Mode ON]

I cannot help but feel that this rule comes from a patriarchal system ignorant of what makes one holy. Still one should respect the local customs of a Church but I think there comes a point where a symbol needs to step aside for the reality of what the Eucharist truly is. It just seems very hocus pocusy to me and inconsiderate of the woman. How in the world can a natural, God-given process make a woman somehow unworthy of the Eucharist... but my own purposeful sins, I am forgiven of and am made worthy through absolution?

Maybe I'm wrong but I can't help but feel that culture plays a 100% role in this and that bible verses were later added to defend this belief.

John

[Purely Personal Opinion mode OFF]

[VickiY]

*sighs*

The canons that prohibit women from receiving the Eucharist during menstruation ALSO prohibit men from receiving the morning following nocturnal emmissions. This is not about being anti-female, and it IS still canon law, not superstition.

Many priests will say that this should not stop anyone from communing, and if that is the direction your spiritual father gave you, listen to him, as obedience to one's spiritual father will cover you if he's wrong ;) On the other hand, if you do not have a spiritual father, and are trying to make sense of this from a priest A says this, priest B says that....refer back to the canons.

[Xpycoctomos]

There's a canon on it? A canon followed by all jurisdictions? Could anyone show it to me or at least say where it was stated?

That brings me to a question then. Are all canons binding (excepting circumstances of oikonoia), even those outside of the Ecumenical councils?

I guess I am wondering also if some canons are written in 12th century russia, is that binding on antiochians? I would imagine not. What was the nature of this particular canon? Was it local?

I must say that the nocturnal emissions thing is worlds apart from the menstration.

John

PS: If it sounds like a bit of a challenge above, it kind of is but not meant disrespectfully. My gut tells me that this may not even be a canon (not that you're lying, but that perhaps you assumed it is just as I am assuming it isn't) or that at the very least it local canon that does not have any kind of binding law on anyone (as do the Ecumenical Councils) except that which a priest imposes on his flock or at the most those within that jurisdiction. HOWEVER, I am TOTALLY willing to be "proven wrong". I don't pretend to have solid evidence to back up my thoughts on this adn above I do acknowledge my ignorance regarding canons and their nature. If I assumed my thoughts were right, I wouldn't be opening this up for discussion so I can learn. And it is CERTAINLY not meant to be a personal attack on you or anyone else who may disagree with me (besides, I am perfectly willing to disagree with MYSELF on this issue :))

[Orthocat]

Periods and nocturnal emissions??

In this day and age a woman will not be dripping blood onto the church floor or anything like that, and the ones I know would be extra conscious to be cleaner during that time. I am not a scientist, but I do not think the Blood of Communion would immediately come out of a woman due to menstruation. Spiritually speaking, I do not think it comes out at all. Physically speaking, I don't think it would even work this way. But I'll ask some ladies at work around the water cooler tomorrow....

We have indoor plumbing now.
And men will not come to church today with semen on them from a dream the night before that they may not even remember (at least, I would hope not). And most, once again, would shower before church, especially if that happened. (But then I am no longer 17, and this does not apply quite like it used to....)

different cultures still hold different rules, and forgive me if I have crossed any boundaries I shouldn't have.

In my sinful little opinion, when it comes to communion and entering the church...check yourself to see if you have sins unconfessed or not repented for. Conscience and repentence are what the fathers speak most of.

[Andrew21091]

I know that the Old Rite Church is really strict about woman on their period. They can come to church but they cannot venerate the icons or recieve Communion.

[minasoliman]

Yes. The Ethiopians before Christianity were pretty much Jews. They sought to keep their Jewish culture while becoming Christian. It's funny that while for centuries they've been under care by the Coptic Church (many times, Ethiopians sometimes called themselves Coptic), the Ethiopians would not touch pork, but Copts would love it (like me, although I like lamb better; have yet to try deer meat).

God bless.