Stupid Question

[Greg the byzantine]

Have you had one of those questions that you feel really stupid asking, because the answer will not make a difference one way or another, but you still want to know the answer anyway?

Well here's the thread to ask them, and see if you get an answer.

So I had a question in mind, and here it goes.

At my parish when the priest is giving out the antidoron at the end of the liturgy, in the bowl there are certain pieces wrapped in aluminum foil. Does anybody know why these pieces are wrapped in aluminum?

[RobNJ]

In my Parish, they're wrapped in plastic. Some people take them home & have a little bit at the start of each day, during the week, sometimes with a sip of Holy Water.

[JustinHesychast]

If we are supposed to pray for God's will, then why do we pray with specific requests?

[rusmeister]

For the same reason parents want their kids to ask for things.

[EricTheRed]

Am I the only one who does not like the taste of Antidoron?

[Philothei]

Have you had one of those questions that you feel really stupid asking, because the answer will not make a difference one way or another, but you still want to know the answer anyway?

Well here's the thread to ask them, and see if you get an answer.

So I had a question in mind, and here it goes.

At my parish when the priest is giving out the antidoron at the end of the liturgy, in the bowl there are certain pieces wrapped in aluminum foil. Does anybody know why these pieces are wrapped in aluminum?
This piece of antidoron is called Ipsoma and it is the special piece that is given to the family,sometimes, who gave the prosforon. The ipsoma (comes from,as the word indicates, "raised up" piece) is the rectangular piece on the center of the stamp. Regularily the priest would cut from there to put it in the Holy vessel to make the communion. BUT... because there are a number of other prosfora there that he has already used for communion, he cuts them and he gives them out to families who brought the extra prosfora. Hope I explain it well... I know you want to know the purpose of this... well it is a tradition with small t and has caused lots of unnessary confusion like this one... Ah leave it to Greeks... to confuse people... lol...

A lot of bishops in US are pretty aggrivated by this "tradition" and dispise it... and for good reason because it creates "prosforon wars" and antidoron wars among the faithfull. One way that Greek priest in Greece handle this one is to give them later after liturgy to each lady seperately.

I personally think it is a silly tradition that confuses people. The ipsoma is not a "special" piece or anthing. It just aknowledges the one who make the prosforon, that is all.

Hope that explains.

God bless,
Philothei

[Philothei]

Am I the only one who does not like the taste of Antidoron?
You are right some of it tastes funny especially if it is stale. You are not the only one. Some ladies make it sour dough or with wheat flour. I guess it is a matter of preference.

Philothei

[Philothei]

I want to ask a stupid question here it goes.

Have you thought of keeping those altar boys from talking by giving them books to follow the liturgy?

I have seen altar boys chanting in ONE only parish.in my life...or is it only me that I see most parishes altar boys either standing there, talking, laughing, etc.

Just wondering.

Philothei

[EricTheRed]

What you need is someone with a ruler. Keep them in line hehe

[Silentchapel]

If we are supposed to pray for God's will, then why do we pray with specific requests?
Because God's will is non-linear, I believe. :) I think that there are many ways He can help us and save us, and that is when our co-operation comes into place.

[rusmeister]

I want to ask a stupid question here it goes.

Have you thought of keeping those altar boys from talking by giving them books to follow the liturgy?

I have seen altar boys chanting in ONE only parish.in my life...or is it only me that I see most parishes altar boys either standing there, talking, laughing, etc.

Just wondering.

Philothei
Wow. The altarniki - often NOT boys - are quite serious and never talk or laugh during DL over here.

[Khaleas]

I want to ask a stupid question here it goes.

Have you thought of keeping those altar boys from talking by giving them books to follow the liturgy?

I have seen altar boys chanting in ONE only parish.in my life...or is it only me that I see most parishes altar boys either standing there, talking, laughing, etc.

Just wondering.

Philothei
Yea, we see very little of it at our parish. Two of the altar boys are Father's sons but even the other ones it's rare to see them goofing off. And if they do, I think all the adults are cracking up too... which happens from time to time.

[Shubunkin]

You know, I've been attending an Antiochian Orthodox Church now for almost a year. I have no idea what you are talking about here. :scratch:

Either I have so much to learn (I do)... or we don't have this. :)

[SeraphimSarov]

What you need is someone with a ruler. Keep them in line hehe
Isn't that the subdeacon's job?

[EricTheRed]

Isn't that the subdeacon's job?
Well then. You better arm them

[Xpycoctomos]

You know, I've been attending an Antiochian Orthodox Church now for almost a year. I have no idea what you are talking about here. :scratch:

Either I have so much to learn (I do)... or we don't have this. :)
I doubt it has anything to do with jursidiction. It is generally a reflection on how tight a ship the priest runs DURNING liturgy (not necessarily on how tight a ship he helps run in general). Not that the priest has time to set the boys aside and talk to them but he should take it upon himself to later take asside the deacon,subdeacon,reader, or other adult back there and tell them to hold them in line. They're kids and they are going to do this if their parents and other adults to train them to do otherwise, especially in bigger parishes. I would probably do a lousy job at this as a priest so Im not judging any priest, just saying that perhaps running a tight liturgical ship isn't his forte lol

[EmperorConstantine]

I want to ask a stupid question here it goes.

Have you thought of keeping those altar boys from talking by giving them books to follow the liturgy?

I have seen altar boys chanting in ONE only parish.in my life...or is it only me that I see most parishes altar boys either standing there, talking, laughing, etc.

Just wondering.

Philothei
Well, speaking as an altar boy; this usually happens with the younger ones (or so I've noticed).

However in my opinion, the only time any real talking is ok to happen during the Liturgy is if there was a new person and had to be told how to do an Entrance or figuring out who carries the fans and who carries the candles. Stuff like that. But that's just me. :)

[Greg the byzantine]

This piece of antidoron is called Ipsoma and it is the special piece that is given to the family,sometimes, who gave the prosforon. The ipsoma (comes from,as the word indicates, "raised up" piece) is the rectangular piece on the center of the stamp. Regularily the priest would cut from there to put it in the Holy vessel to make the communion. BUT... because there are a number of other prosfora there that he has already used for communion, he cuts them and he gives them out to families who brought the extra prosfora. Hope I explain it well... I know you want to know the purpose of this... well it is a tradition with small t and has caused lots of unnessary confusion like this one... Ah leave it to Greeks... to confuse people... lol...

A lot of bishops in US are pretty aggrivated by this "tradition" and dispise it... and for good reason because it creates "prosforon wars" and antidoron wars among the faithfull. One way that Greek priest in Greece handle this one is to give them later after liturgy to each lady seperately.

I personally think it is a silly tradition that confuses people. The ipsoma is not a "special" piece or anthing. It just aknowledges the one who make the prosforon, that is all.

Hope that explains.

God bless,
Philothei


Thank you soooooo much Philothei.


We usually have 5 or 6 pieces like that, and I always wondered. Now it makes sense

[Philothei]

Can I ask another "stupid" question:
Since we have a lot of ex-Catholic folks here, here it goes:
Why do the RC bishops wear a ring? and where does this tradition comes from? or is it only the Pope that does? I always wanted to know....

God bless,
Philothei

[Anhelyna]

Nope - all Bishops in the RC Church have a ring Philothei . I can't answer for the ECs though - we are still Bishopless since ours was transferred to the USA :(

It's an ancient tradition though I'm not really sure of the origin. I do know that it is normal on greeting the Bishop to kiss his ring

[Rowan]

In what language do the angels sing in heaven?

:)

[Anhelyna]

whatever language you hear them in :)

[cassc]

Am I the only one who does not like the taste of Antidoron?

You are right some of it tastes funny especially if it is stale. You are not the only one. Some ladies make it sour dough or with wheat flour. I guess it is a matter of preference.

Philothei

mmm, I often do not like the taste, I don't know what it is but it is almost always stale and I know for a fact the a number of different family provide it!!! As a kid I always tried to grab the smallest piece (not really a good habit, but at least my family was always very strict about carefully eating all of whatever we took). Sometimes though it is soooo good!!

[Philothei]

In what language do the angels sing in heaven?

:)
Maybe Aramaic??? or Greek??? just kidding here though...
Anyone else knows the tradition behind the biships of the RC wearing a ring and people kissing it?
Was it a secular custom of the kings?

[Emmanuel-A]

In what language do the angels sing in heaven?

:)

French, obviously :clap:

[Ioan cel Nou]

French, obviously :clap:
Well according to a former colleague of mine (who was Greek Orthodox if only nominally), you've got the wrong location there. He seemed to think the inscription over the gates of hell read 'In here we all speak French'.

Sorry, I just couldn't resist.

James

[RobNJ]

I wish I could find that old Far Side cartoon. It was a split panel- one side had angels greeting new people "Welcome to heaven, here's your harp". The other side had demons, saying "Welcome to hell, here's your accordion" ^_^

[Xpycoctomos]

Maybe Aramaic??? or Greek??? just kidding here though...
Anyone else knows the tradition behind the biships of the RC wearing a ring and people kissing it?
Was it a secular custom of the kings?
My guess was that it was not secular as much as borrowing a secular tradition to symbolize the meaning and reverence due to their position. Just like we didn't invent our vestments. A lot of the aspects and elements, from what I have learned, came from very secular elements of society. My guess is that the reason behind the rings is very similar in meaning.

[Xpycoctomos]

Well according to a former colleague of mine (who was Greek Orthodox if only nominally), you've got the wrong location there. He seemed to think the inscription over the gates of hell read 'In here we all speak French'.

Sorry, I just couldn't resist.

James
and added to that "but we have the spelling sense of the Anglophones" lol

[Ioan cel Nou]

and added to that "but we have the spelling sense of the Anglophones" lol
You think French is spelled more sensibly than English? You must be joking. I'm pretty sure that France is where we got our weird ideas about spelling from. After all, the other native languages on this island are spelled phonetically (once you learn the rules) and without a plethora of seemingly random silent letters. German is very phonetic too. English is - bizarre. But I remember the horror I had of French spelling when I had to learn the language at school - it's really no better.

James

[Xpycoctomos]

You think French is spelled more sensibly than English? You must be joking. I'm pretty sure that France is where we got our weird ideas about spelling from. After all, the other native languages on this island are spelled phonetically (once you learn the rules) and without a plethora of seemingly random silent letters. German is very phonetic too. English is - bizarre. But I remember the horror I had of French spelling when I had to learn the language at school - it's really no better.

James
I agree that that is where we got our bizarre spelling "rules" from. However, if you do take a look at it, 99% of French pronunciation, although complicated because of it's plethera of long letter groups forming one sound (usually vowel sounds like eau for "o"), can be learned by using actual rules that aren't broken, even if complicated. English pronunciation rules can be summarized with many complicated rules but even there there are exceptions, many many of them, that can't be explained by any rule unless it is a rule that only applies to that word. lol

I do agree, however, that German is MUCH easier phonetically than French as is Romanian (well, that is, in theory althought I can't get that î/â thing very well, but that's not confusing but rather me just having a hard time making such a foreign sound).

I should add, however, this disclaimer. Despite the chaoticness that is English spelling/pronuncatiation, being someone who LOVES etymology (although no expert at all) I find English a much more fascinating language to delve into historically speaking becuase of it's diverse background. It's heart and skeleton is Germanic, but it's flesh and outward appearance is SOOOOOO varied and wonderful. It's like a constant mystery to solve and gives one insight into the spelling that offers both chaos and beauty to the English Language. Well, that's my opinion anyway.

John

[NyssaTheHobbit]

I don't know about French rules not being broken...I was originally taught (in two years of French) that you don't pronounce final consonants except for C, R, F and L. Then in German class in college, the teacher mentioned a Swiss mountain with a French name, and pronounced it. The pronunciation violated the CRFL rule. I asked her about it. However, rather than explaining why this violated the rule, she came back with a rather snotty, "I come from Switzerland, so I should think I'd know how to pronounce it." (Apparently she thought I knew only German and no French.)

To this day I haven't a clue why the rule was broken there. :P

[Philothei]

Ok another silly question:

Where does the tradition of the blessed water in the narthex comes from in the RC church?

Those from OBOB can asnwer (if they know) no speculations but with evidence bringing forth sites with references.
In monasteries in Greece especially in shrines we too have holy water or as it is called "anama" running water, so that people can take and drink or take it home with them.

Thank you.
God bless,
Philothei

[Ioan cel Nou]

Ok another silly question:

Where does the tradition of the blessed water in the narthex comes from in the RC church?

Those from OBOB can asnwer (if they know) no speculations but with evidence bringing forth sites with references.
In monasteries in Greece especially in shrines we too have holy water or as it is called "anama" running water, so that people can take and drink or take it home with them.

Thank you.
God bless,
Philothei
I don't know about the RC custom, but it's quite common to find holy water for people to take away at Romanian monasteries too (in Romanian it's Agheasma). Is this a general Orthodox custom or one only specific to one or two traditions?

James

[Philothei]

We call it agheasma too :) I think it is an Orthodox custom too!

I wonder if the holy water in the narthex was an ancient tradition (since they had a spring at Aghia Sofia in Constantinople) and it is just difunct for us while more active in the west. I also do not know if some churches have it and others do not. .....Just wondering.


Philothei

[Xpycoctomos]

I don't know about French rules not being broken...I was originally taught (in two years of French) that you don't pronounce final consonants except for C, R, F and L. Then in German class in college, the teacher mentioned a Swiss mountain with a French name, and pronounced it. The pronunciation violated the CRFL rule. I asked her about it. However, rather than explaining why this violated the rule, she came back with a rather snotty, "I come from Switzerland, so I should think I'd know how to pronounce it." (Apparently she thought I knew only German and no French.)

To this day I haven't a clue why the rule was broken there. :P
Well, generally in a rule driven langauge like French, when rules are broken it is often because they took on a competely foreign word or name and just shoved into their vocabulary. Names are often violators because... well, France is kind of an artficial creation as is Germany, Spain and Italy (etc...) born out of political disputes, royal marriages and wars. France speaks French (and particularly a French born out of the northern half) because... it's region won out in the end. Many times, after wars were won, edicts were sent out forcing people to live their lives in the tongue of the Conquerors and so in most regions of France, people speak a langauge that is not inherent to their land or their ancestors (although they might have spoken a language that was darn close) and in fact they may still preserve that language fully or through dilectical diffrences. But, and this is my point... fianlly, this can oalso be seen in names, especially surnames and names of old monuments and topographical names (cities and such) and they often do not follow the rules because although they are French by nationality, they are not French by etymology. Also, I would keep in mind that she wasn't French. ALSO, I would keep in mind that Frnech in Switzerland is different from French in France as is Frnech in belgium. So pronunciation will of course differ. however, they then have their own rules.

Also, it is quite possible that this is when a rule is arbitrarily broken (although in this case I kind of don't think so) but it is all the more obvious in Frnech than it is in English. This is evident by your having a specific memory of one word (a topographical name spoken by a german-speaking woman on top of it) breaking a rule. This made an impression on you. But if an English word breaking a pronunciation "rule" (if that is not a complete oxymoron in English) were to make such an impression on a French student like our brother Emmanuel-A... well, he'd be impressioned out becuase he would soon realize that in English what we call rules are nothing more than tendancies that shouldn't be applied with too much faith.

Even Spanish, just as phonetcally devout as French but MUCH simpler, has it's rule breakers... but again, this is usually topographical and/or they are foreign word useds in the Language (like "byte" or "parking").

The reasons for rule breakers can go deeper than this, but they are easily explained. And I am not sharing them not because I think they would go over people's heads (my understanding of linguistics and all that is not so deep that I could do that) but rather because I am already pulling this thread way off topic, I don't think anyone is as interested as I am, and I think I would not word the explanation right.

I love this stuff!

John

[NyssaTheHobbit]

Thanks! I think I finally get it. :)

[JustinHesychast]

I have a stupid question (and I'm all for a sticky of this thread ;)).

Do you plain outright ask someone to be your spiritual father or mother? Or is it just one of those things you know or something that develops over time? I got to thinking about this, because I may not have a SF after all depending on the answer. :blush:

:o

[Breaking Babylon]

Isn't the kissing of the Bishop's ring to show that you respect his apostolic succession or something like that? An admiration for being a pastor of the flock so to speak?

[Anhelyna]

Justin

this may or may not help - BUT after chatting with the Priest for some hours over a period of time - I just knew he would be my SF - and thus it turned out . We only meet twice a year , and he's a lousy correspondant by e-mail or snail mail - BUT the phone is always there . And oh yes - I did ask him :) and got a hug as the response with a huge smile .

[Akathist]

I have a stupid question (and I'm all for a sticky of this thread ;)).

Do you plain outright ask someone to be your spiritual father or mother? Or is it just one of those things you know or something that develops over time? I got to thinking about this, because I may not have a SF after all depending on the answer. :blush:

:o

The Priest of the parish I am a member is my Spiritual Father. I never asked him directly about that it was just assumed. I have referred to him directly as my Spiritual Father and he has not corrected me.