The Fall of Constantinople

[JustinHesychast]

Because of the sins of men, God sent a great calamity on the capitol city of the Christian world on May 29th, 1453.

from http://monastery.org/

Is this the widely held belief in the Church? Does the Church believe that all calamities are God's wrath?

God's clarity, peace, serenity,
In Christ,
Love,
Justin

[icxn]

God's corrective chastisement for our sins it is, yes!

As for the second question I do not think so.

[buzuxi02]

Yes, the fall of Constantinople was due to sin. For compromising the faith and joining with the latin-minded heretics. As the above post says ,the second not neccesarily.

[Vasileios]

There are the two stories from the night before the Fall of Constantinople:
The first was that the people on the walls saw a multitude of lights at the horizon going away from the city. At first they thought that the Ottoman hosts were abandoning the siege and leaving but a monk or elder or priest (or smth) told them it was actually the saints leaving.

The second story was the witnessing of a large cloud on top of the dome of the Hagia Sophia rising towards the sky. It was said to be the grace of God leaving. It should be noted here that the last liturgy in Hagia Sophia was not Orthodox but latin. They compromised and surrendered the church to the latins in the hope of receiving aid. Many believe this was the reason the city fell eventually.

I am not sure where these stories originate from, but they are considered more serious than the usual legends from that day (such as an angel saving and hiding the emperor, turning him into stone etc!)...

As for the original question I do tend to believe that absolutely everything in our lives is in the hands of God.

It is said that the byzantines had turned very lukewarm, that they sought political alliances with the western churches and compromising the Orthodox faith etc. The same was said of the Russians prior to the Communist revolution. Suffering always brings people to their senses (like we always remember to pray when we are in need, instead of always)...

[icxn]

There's also the story of the hand and the five fingers, which would appear to Moameth through the wall every night and scare him off. Eventually he asked Gennadius scholarius, (I think I remember the name correctly), which later became the Patriarch to interpret this vision to him. After a week's fasting and prayer God revealed to him that the five fingers represented five good Christians, that if they were in the City (obviously there weren't even five of them) it wouldn't have fallen to the hands of the enemy.

It reminds me of the story in Genesis where Abraham asks God how many righteous people is enough to spare the city. It is unclear what the minimum is in scripture, but I guess the above story makes that clear, five.

:)

[buzuxi02]

The consensus that Constantinople fell due to its sins was/ is so widely believed , that the old ritualists used this as an argument for not revising the russian tradition to be more in tune with the greek one, of whom God punished by bringing their fall.

This belief is also correct with orthodox theology in which God only punishes in order to protect from greater calamity and correct. As soon as the Royal City fell to the Turks, the greek heirarchs turned back to Orthodoxy.

[vfilip]

don't worry Constantinople will soon regain its glory and will be given to Orthodox people . Turkey will split up. Turks will be punished for their sins .
Prophesy by monk Paisios

[nikostheater]

Yes,that's true.
The general belief was that..and even today many greeks believe that.

[Sothron]

don't worry Constantinople will soon regain its glory and will be given to Orthodox people . Turkey will split up. Turks will be punished for their sins .
Prophesy by monk Paisios

I hope it comes true. I find it disgraceful that one of the holiest cities and sites in Orthodoxy is in the hands of Muslims. Constantinople should be returned to Greek hands.

[xristos.anesti]

That is the reason Serbs make kebabs and mousaka differently to Greeks.

Also, we make our baklava's with more moisture - so it would not be like the Greek dry one.



Greeks can not be trusted!















^_^
Just kidding.




http://www.biocrawler.com/w/images/1/17/Serbgreek.JPG


http://www.yalchicago.org/uploads/cyprusgreece1.JPG



Love them.
:thumbsup:

[nikolayalexandroff]

I hope it comes true. I find it disgraceful that one of the holiest cities and sites in Orthodoxy is in the hands of Muslims. Constantinople should be returned to Greek hands.
My wish too. Things that happened to the Byzantine Empire - never could understand them.

[Nichole]

I'm sorry here, but whom do you think should be punished? The Turks of today or the government control?

[Mankin]

What makes me made about Islam is that the pope quotes one Byzantine Emperor who spoke against Islam, most of what this emperor said was true, and the Muslims in the Middle East went berserk and killed a bunch of nuns. How can their religion be called peaceful when they do something like that?

[Philothei]

We have many neo-martyr saints that prove the brutality of Islam no need to repeat it here.... And Turkey has the audacity to want to join the EU...??? for what to bring the barbaric islamic law with with it against the Christians?

Lord have mercy!

Philothei

[Mankin]

Well, Turkey does have a secular government like the rest of Europe and is trying to keep it that way. But if you did a vote, I bet that Turkey would vote for radical Islam. I know I am not Orthodox but I love the Byzantine Empire. It's downfall was caused by treachery. Treachery within their ranks at the Battle of Manzikert caused their defeat. Treachery from the Crusaders caused their city to be sacked and weakened them utterly for the final blow by the Ottomans.

[Mankin]

I also like the Byzantine Empire's version of the knight, the Cataphract(Kataphractoi was another name for it). They were more displined and they were made up from people of the middle class unlike the high class knights.

[Nichole]

Turkey is the link between the European and Asian continents! It is a very flourishing and important link; therefore given reason to want to join (and many others). Remember, Turkey is a democratic and secular country (thanks to Ataturk!). Unless the Turkish government lightens up their control on everything, most likely they will not be allowed into the Europen Union (many other reasons also, but am sure it's not because they want to spread Islamic law!!!!!!!!!). Some of these remarks are offensive (my husband is a native born Turk, with family still living there---they are not Muslim anymore)!!! The modern day Turks do not live today like their barbaric ancestors (in which most don't even know where they came from, due to them coming from different areas) once did! And as for the Greeks........there has always been this hatred of the Turks (for past reasons). I get this feeling alot of the times that some of the Greeks feel they are this superior race!

[Mankin]

I think that some Greeks do feel that they are superior. Note I said some.

[Nichole]

Yes, I agree, and note.........I said some too!

[EricTheRed]

If the Turkish government lightens up it will become an Islamic state. The Nationalistic military is the only reason they are not one now.

[Orthosdoxa]

There was a mass protest by the Turks some weeks ago, with a MILLION Turks in the streets, protesting against any move towards becoming an Islamic state.

Go Turks!!!!!

And for the Greeks who complain about them - their Turkishness was never the problem, Islam was/is. My dad complains about the blankety blank Arabs now, and I remind him - their Arabness is not a problem - their being Islam is.4

That's just my unskolarlee apinyun, tho.

[Nichole]

Uhhhhhhh.........yea............the military is the reason alot of the Turks flee from their country and never return! They impose a mandatory serving at age 18 (with ways to defer it for a few years) and some have died due to their cruel and harsh behavior!

[EricTheRed]

Protests or not the majority did vote for an Islamic government until the Military demanded a revote.

[EricTheRed]

Uhhhhhhh.........yea............the military is the reason alot of the Turks flee from their country and never return! They impose a mandatory serving at age 18 (with ways to defer it for a few years) and some have died due to their cruel and harsh behavior!


and it has worked. Notice none of the Terrorists are turkish?


I am not trying to defend their cruel Military backed Nationalistic tendencies. I am just saying from an American standpoint. It is the lesser of two evils.

[Nichole]

Guess you don't know Turkey like you think (and neither do I), but there are Turkish terrorist groups. Example......the bombing that took place in Ankara a few weeks ago.

[EricTheRed]

I am in no way an expert on this topic. I am just saying none of the Anti-American Islamic terror groups tend to be recruiting masses of Turks. As for domestic I honestly do not begin to have a clue.

[Bushmaster78FS]

Yes, the fall of Constantinople was due to sin. For compromising the faith and joining with the latin-minded heretics. As the above post says ,the second not neccesarily.

I don't believe it but let me ask, if they have not compromised the faith, would you think that they would have pushed the Ottomans back, or defend the city successfully for an indefinite period of time? Like until today?

[Bushmaster78FS]

There are the two stories from the night before the Fall of Constantinople:
The first was that the people on the walls saw a multitude of lights at the horizon going away from the city. At first they thought that the Ottoman hosts were abandoning the siege and leaving but a monk or elder or priest (or smth) told them it was actually the saints leaving.

The second story was the witnessing of a large cloud on top of the dome of the Hagia Sophia rising towards the sky. It was said to be the grace of God leaving.

Respectfully, I do not believe in these stories, Ottomans, unfortunately, had a decisive siege situation similar to what we had in "Shock and Awe"... Maybe not resolved for that quickly like it did for us, but certainly comparable force wise...

It should be noted here that the last liturgy in Hagia Sophia was not Orthodox but latin. They compromised and surrendered the church to the latins in the hope of receiving aid. Many believe this was the reason the city fell eventually.

Enlighten me in this, my nona is of Greek descent, married to a Turk. She had told me that Orthodox strictly refused help from the Latins, and suggested that they would rather go under the the turban of the sultan than joining with latins...

As for the original question I do tend to believe that absolutely everything in our lives is in the hands of God.

Very true.

It is said that the byzantines had turned very lukewarm, that they sought political alliances with the western churches and compromising the Orthodox faith etc. The same was said of the Russians prior to the Communist revolution. Suffering always brings people to their senses (like we always remember to pray when we are in need, instead of always)...

First thing Sultan Mehmet did was to appoint a bishop who was again strictly against Latin theology, by this way, he was making sure that there would be no unions in the future that would threaten the growing Ottoman State. I am surprised and maybe ignorant because never heard Orthodox tried to form an alliance with RCC.

[Bushmaster78FS]

Turks will be punished for their sins .
Prophesy by monk Paisios



:amen: :doh:Well, what about Greeks?

[Bushmaster78FS]

I hope it comes true. I find it disgraceful that one of the holiest cities and sites in Orthodoxy is in the hands of Muslims. Constantinople should be returned to Greek hands.

Disgraceful? Well, muslims "praised" their god for victory that has been granted to them. Furthermore, they opened a can of whoopass with that military might similar to what we did in the land of two rivers, twice! They came and took it, just like they did in Jerusalem. I'd like to remind you the spread of Christianity and suggest to relax. We are humans and wars happen, things will change hands, you can not isolate groups in this mindset.

[Bushmaster78FS]

We have many neo-martyr saints that prove the brutality of Islam no need to repeat it here.... And Turkey has the audacity to want to join the EU...??? for what to bring the barbaric islamic law with with it against the Christians?

Lord have mercy!

Philothei

This is from a very narrow perspective, look at it this way, if they are granted entry, they will have to let a lot things fly in their homeland, they have to let CHURCHES open publicly and they can not persecute them, Christianity will flourish and they can not LEGALLY stop it, they attempt to stop it by violence, then goodbye EU... Think of it this way. EU will grant a lot of freedoms to Christianity in Turkey. Because they will be protected. Also, Turkey is not Saudi Arabia.

[Bushmaster78FS]

But if you did a vote, I bet that Turkey would vote for radical Islam.

Nope...

I know I am not Orthodox but I love the Byzantine Empire. It's downfall was caused by treachery. Treachery within their ranks at the Battle of Manzikert caused their defeat. Treachery from the Crusaders caused their city to be sacked and weakened them utterly for the final blow by the Ottomans.

Where are Ottomans NOW? Treachery?

[Bushmaster78FS]

the military is the reason alot of the Turks flee from their country and never return! They impose a mandatory serving at age 18 (with ways to defer it for a few years) and some have died due to their cruel and harsh behavior!

LOL LOL LOL... Yea just some compared to the 80-90 million population, they flee the country from their mandatory military just to join another military ... LOL...

Just a side note, some servicemembers, some of my peers, in our military here thinks that it is a great idea to bring MANDATORY MILITARY DUTY to UNITED STATES. This is what some in our military thinks, think about the good it will do to our youth though, I am somewhat against it.

[Bushmaster78FS]

and it has worked. Notice none of the Terrorists are turkish?

This has been already released so I am not breaching OPSEC, we (US Army) have intercepted a vehicle, I believe in northern Iraq, which was believed to have Al-Qaeda senior leaders, 4 people were in the vehicle and they did not stop so they became bullet ridden, the senior leader was Mehmet Yilmaz, which I also happen to have the same first name. Darn!

I am not trying to defend their cruel Military backed Nationalistic tendencies. I am just saying from an American standpoint. It is the lesser of two evils.


Military in Turkey is the guarantee that they will not become Iran. For some, US military is also cruel and harsh. I have heard worse stories about Korean military while I was there, not comparable to Turkish military. Military is military.

[Mysterium_Fidei]

From Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fall_of_Constantinople):

Constantine appealed to Western Europe for help, but his request did not meet the expected attention. Ever since the mutual excommunication (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East-West_Schism) of the Orthodox (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodoxy) and Roman Catholic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholicism) churches in 1054, the Roman Catholic west had been trying to re-integrate the east; union had been attempted before at Lyons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Council_of_Lyons) in 1274 and, indeed, some Paleologan emperors had been received in the Latin Church since. Emperor John VIII Palaeologus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_VIII_Palaeologus) had attempted to negotiate Union with Pope Eugene IV (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Eugene_IV), and the Council (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Basel#Eugenius_IV) held in 1439 resulted in the proclamation, in Florence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florence), of a Bull of Union. In the following years, a massive propaganda initiative was undertaken by anti-unionist forces in Constantinople and the population was in fact bitterly divided. Latent ethnic hatred (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_hatred) between Greeks and Italians stemming from the events of 1204 and the sack of Constantinople (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Crusade) by the Latins, also played a significant role, and finally the Union failed, greatly annoying Pope Nicholas V (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Nicholas_V) and the Roman Catholic church.
[/URL]
However, even if he had been more eager to help, Pope Nicholas V did not have the influence the Byzantines thought he had over the Western Kings and princes, and these had not the wherewithal to contribute to the effort, especially in light of [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France"]France (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodosian_Walls) and England (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/England) being weakened from the Hundred Years' War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hundred_Years%27_War), Iberian Kingdoms (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain) being in the final part of the Reconquista (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconquista), the internecine fighting in the German Principalities (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Roman_Empire), and Hungary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungary) and Poland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poland)'s defeat at the Battle of Varna (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Varna) of 1444. Although some troops did arrive from the city states of what today is the north of Italy, the Western contribution was not adequate to counterbalance the Ottoman strength.

[Bushmaster78FS]

a massive propaganda initiative was undertaken by anti-unionist forces in Constantinople and the population was in fact bitterly divided

This must be what my godmother was telling about... Got it...

[Mankin]

There are still extremists in Turkey and the Muslim world is drifting more and more into extremism. There are many moderate Muslims in the world, but their voices are being drowned out by the jihadists.

[Mankin]

Nope...



Where are Ottomans NOW? Treachery?

The Ottoman Empire is gone. It was broken in World War I. Atturack gave the government a much needed reform. The army at Manzikert faced treachery within their ranks. Disloyaty had left them stranded far away from Constantinople and the Turks made the Themes turn against the army.

[Bushmaster78FS]

There are still extremists in Turkey and the Muslim world is drifting more and more into extremism. There are many moderate Muslims in the world, but their voices are being drowned out by the jihadists.

I haven't said there are not, but their government would be more on your side rather than Iran, Pakistan, Arabia, Kuwait, etc... Like I said, all they shoot forward for is EU and they know they have to fix a few things...

On the other hand, they might, in case they are rejected to join EU for good, start some middle-eastern union with a group of vicious islamic states and they can establish their own islamic union, which one would we want?

All this, points to our war on terror, we stop the stupid jihad right here, right now, or we are going to suffer in the future.

[Bushmaster78FS]

The Ottoman Empire is gone. It was broken in World War I. Atturack gave the government a much needed reform. The army at Manzikert faced treachery within their ranks. Disloyaty had left them stranded far away from Constantinople and the Turks made the Themes turn against the army.

I know what happened to them, I am a descendant of them. "Ataturk", correctly known as Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, was given the last name "Ataturk" meaning father of Turks by the public at that time. Though it was not Ottomans who defeated the Byzantine Army in 1071 in Malazgirt. It was Seljuk Turks who brought the central asian race into Asia Minor after that defeat. But look at the reasons why Ottoman fell weak... They all do...

[Mankin]

Yes I know that it was Seljuqs. Still, Turkey has some probs it needs to work out before it enters the EU. For one, it needs to allow more freedom of speech.

[nestoj]

I know what happened to them, I am a descendant of them. "Ataturk", correctly known as Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, was given the last name "Ataturk" meaning father of Turks by the public at that time. Though it was not Ottomans who defeated the Byzantine Army in 1071 in Malazgirt. It was Seljuk Turks who brought the central asian race into Asia Minor after that defeat. But look at the reasons why Ottoman fell weak... They all do...
Is there any difference in nationality between Seljuks and Otomans? I know both ware equally aggressively expansionistic (then again most states ware in those days, these guys ware just more united) and from my perspective there is not much difference. Is the difference only in ruling dynasty?

I’m of opinion that Byzantines (Romei) did made to many irreparable compromises regarding faith, moral and spiritual health of their Empire (all crucial for morale of nation and army)… and what happened was inevitable. They also found themselves surrounded by bestial enemies from east, south and west, and without a loyal and powerful ally there was no chance for them to survive (and they never tried to build a relationship of true friendship with any neighbor state – this was hard thing to do – all these states ware build on territory taken from Romei Empire after it accepted us as barbarians, given us its culture and Christianity, and, in case of my nation, provided us with protection from other barbarians – Serbs ware freely advancing deep inside Romei territory (Raska) protected from Avars while other Slavs, north of Danube, had to put up with all sorts of things from these guys).

Turkish military does looks like a boogieman for bending rules of democracy, but they are prime force that keeps the Turkey in secular waters.

nestoj
God helps

[Bushmaster78FS]

Is there any difference in nationality between Seljuks and Otomans?

Ottomans descended from Seljuks, they are both Turkish. They were though, Seljuks, closer to what original Turks would have been, coming from Central Asia. With Ottomans, there is a greater mixture of other races and ethnicities, and today, the country's people look like anything you may call, Italian, French, Greek, Arab, etc... They didn't have family names until 1930's therefore no possibility to track roots either.

I know both ware equally aggressively expansionistic (then again most states ware in those days, these guys ware just more united) and from my perspective there is not much difference. Is the difference only in ruling dynasty?

They were following their religion, hadith, specifically instructing them and praising them whoever establishes the global islamic state, again, Constantinople was also a prophetic target of Muhammad. Mehmet II did get the prophetic praise for achieving this goal.


Turkish military does looks like a boogieman for bending rules of democracy, but they are prime force that keeps the Turkey in secular waters.

Thankfully...

[nestoj]

Ottomans descended from Seljuks, they are both Turkish. They were though, Seljuks, closer to what original Turks would have been, coming from Central Asia. With Ottomans, there is a greater mixture of other races and ethnicities, and today, the country's people look like anything you may call, Italian, French, Greek, Arab, etc... They didn't have family names until 1930's therefore no possibility to track roots either.

[/SIZE][/FONT]

They were following their religion, hadith, specifically instructing them and praising them whoever establishes the global islamic state, again, Constantinople was also a prophetic target of Muhammad. Mehmet II did get the prophetic praise for achieving this goal.



Thankfully...
Please forgive me, but you do realize, brother, that outside of its current secular orientation, Turkey will, unfortunately, again be No.1 enemy of Christian states found on former Romei territory?

I hope you know that the last thing I want to do is to cause any grief to you, especially for being soldier in a place of battle, but I think one should speak its fears to his brother before a time for real fear comes?

Do you forgive me?

nestoj
God helps

[Bushmaster78FS]

Please forgive me, but you do realize, brother, that outside of its current secular orientation, Turkey will, unfortunately, again be No.1 enemy of Christian states found on former Romei territory?

Well, we have to realize that I am of new generation, raised in a Republic with open society where religion was not pressed onto us. I have no idea or clue of what current ideologies might be that desire to bring back whatever they might want to bring back... But who are they going to follow, not Arabs, that is a given, will Islamic states try to relate to them? Follow them or guide them... It is hard for me to fathom what route they might want to follow. There could be many. Some will want sharia, some will want democracy but independent and playing with fire like Iran. It is a difficult situation to imagine.This is one of the reasons Turkey should be brought into EU, I am not saying admitted, I am saying "being brought", there is a difference, and let the freedoms in Europe flow in Turkey. There will be a population exchange for sure, don't you think? That might help the situation.

I hope you know that the last thing I want to do is to cause any grief to you, especially for being soldier in a place of battle, but I think one should speak its fears to his brother before a time for real fear comes?

My only relation to there is that I am a tourist there and I could help intelligence, cultural and language wise if my country asks me.... But don't worry about that fear, we are out to crush that beast that is trying to wake...

Do you forgive me?

You forgive me...

[nestoj]

But don't worry about that fear, we are out to crush that beast that is trying to wake...


This is where you are wrong.

You might win a war in Iraq, but in the end – we all loose. By 2020., one third of newborn in Europe will be muslim. By 2050. muslims will be majority in France, Germany, Russia, Serbia (if we keep Kosovo) and probably in UK. Three of these five are your greatest allies. One of them has army second only to US. One of them makes no difference. All of them together – it’s not going to be pretty. Albania, Bosnia and Turkey already have muslim majority – and these are just European country’s. Add Pakistan, Iran, north Africa… Christian Europe is dying – average 1.2 – 1.3 children pre women in Germany, average 1.5 in entire EU, and it takes 2.1 for a population to grow. I don’t know about other parts, but in Kosovo its 4.1 – 4.2 average for Albanians. Even if US don’t have muslim majority by this time, you’ll have some of the most powerful European countries looking angry at you together with Middle East.

How to solve this? Should we destroy them all? What good does it makes if we vanquish all of our foes and loose our souls? We fought in three wars these last 15 years and made more damage to ourselves then to our enemies. Now we are trying to restore our faith and prepare for what comes (I have a custom of saying in last few years – “what happens - happens”).

nestoj
God helps

[buzuxi02]

Seljuk and Ottomans should be irrelevant. The true History of Asia Minor needs to be spread.

Turks are a mongol tribe found in Mongolia, China and the eastern most parts of Russia near the chinese border. Under the mongol dynasty Ghengis Khan united the three nomadic tribes; mongols, tatars, and turks.

As they pressed westward the turkic tribes recruited muslims to replenish their numbers. By the time they entered Constantinople centuries later, they were a "Turkic" army in name only. This army that took over did not bring wives over, and were simply a small minority.

The overwhelming majority of Turks living in Turkey
today are caucasians not mongols. Anatolia turks are simply greeks and armenians who converted to islam.

The new conquerors obvious took Orthodox wives.

Orthodox people converted to avoid paying higher taxes.

And add the 2 million male children over the centuries (jannis) confiscated from their Orthodox parents to be raised as turkish muslims who all later on took daughters from Orthodox families to marry, and there you have a the newly created race known as turks all of whom are muslim..

[ma2000]

Nope...



Where are Ottomans NOW? Treachery?

One of the reasons for the fall of Constantinopole was that the Turkish fleet was carried by land behind the chain the Bysantines used to close the Golden Horn. That ideea was given to them by an inhabitant in Constantinopole.

[Bushmaster78FS]

That ideea was given to them by an inhabitant in Constantinopole.

Yea but Turks attach that to the genius of Mehmed. Noone knows about that inhabitant.

[Bushmaster78FS]

This is where you are wrong.

No, brother, there is no right, no wrong in this picture yet. We are seriously out there to follow through and finish this problem once and for all.


You might win a war in Iraq, but in the end – we all loose. By 2020., one third of newborn in Europe will be muslim. By 2050. muslims will be majority in France, Germany, Russia, Serbia (if we keep Kosovo) and probably in UK. Three of these five are your greatest allies. One of them has army second only to US.

But brother... why do this population scare you? They are going to arm themselves and turn these countries into another Iran by revolutions? They are uniform, but they are NOT united. Uniformity among muslims DOES NOT mean unity. What you picture here would go to world war in case they threaten the peace. They won't. Don't you think they displayed what they are capable of during Danish cartoon maddness? They only harm themselves.


[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]How to solve this? Should we destroy them all? What good does it makes if we vanquish all of our foes and loose our souls? We fought in three wars these last 15 years and made more damage to ourselves then to our enemies. Now we are trying to restore our faith and prepare for what comes (I have a custom of saying in last few years – “what happens - happens”).God helps brother, as long as you know what is coming.

[Lotar]

This is where you are wrong.

You might win a war in Iraq, but in the end – we all loose. By 2020., one third of newborn in Europe will be muslim. By 2050. muslims will be majority in France, Germany, Russia, Serbia (if we keep Kosovo) and probably in UK. Three of these five are your greatest allies. One of them has army second only to US. One of them makes no difference. All of them together – it’s not going to be pretty. Albania, Bosnia and Turkey already have muslim majority – and these are just European country’s. Add Pakistan, Iran, north Africa… Christian Europe is dying – average 1.2 – 1.3 children pre women in Germany, average 1.5 in entire EU, and it takes 2.1 for a population to grow. I don’t know about other parts, but in Kosovo its 4.1 – 4.2 average for Albanians. Even if US don’t have muslim majority by this time, you’ll have some of the most powerful European countries looking angry at you together with Middle East.

How to solve this? Should we destroy them all? What good does it makes if we vanquish all of our foes and loose our souls? We fought in three wars these last 15 years and made more damage to ourselves then to our enemies. Now we are trying to restore our faith and prepare for what comes (I have a custom of saying in last few years – “what happens - happens”).

nestoj
God helps
The whole Eurabia thing is a little overblown. Third generation Muslim immigrants have fertility rates comparable to the general European population. Currently Muslims make up about 5% of the European population.

Muslims in Russia have a higher fertility rate than Russians, but they are still, on the whole, below replacement level. Plus, their numbers are overblown: the 20% figure comes from identifying all people from traditionally Muslim ethnicities as Muslim. A recent survey found that the number is actually closer to 9%.

Either way, Orthodox Christians really need to start making babies again. It's really sad that we abort more babies than we give birth to.

[Kristos]

The whole Eurabia thing is a little overblown. Third generation Muslim immigrants have fertility rates comparable to the general European population. Currently Muslims make up about 5% of the European population.

Muslims in Russia have a higher fertility rate than Russians, but they are still, on the whole, below replacement level. Plus, their numbers are overblown: the 20% figure comes from identifying all people from traditionally Muslim ethnicities as Muslim. A recent survey found that the number is actually closer to 9%.

Either way, Orthodox Christians really need to start making babies again. It's really sad that we abort more babies than we give birth to.
I'm working on #4;)

[nestoj]

I'm working on #4;)
My respect to you.

nestoj
God helps