More on Holiness

[Amisk]

" …The Bible teaches that we can be like Jesus. We are to be like Him in our separation from the world, in purity, in love, and in the fullness of the Spirit. This holiness.
This work was begun when you where converted. You gave up your sins. You were in some measure separated from the world, the love God of was in some degree shed abroad in your heart, and you felt that God was with you. But unless you have been sanctified wholly, you also feel that there was yet roots of bitterness within: quickness of temper, stirrings of pride, too great a sensitiveness to praise or blame, shame of the Cross, love of ease, worldly-mindedness and the like. These must be taken away before your heart can be made clean. Love to God and man made perfect, and the Holy Spirit have all His way in you."
Commissioner Samuel Logan Brengle D.D. O.F.

[TamiinKS]

So salvation isn't enough?

[Concetta]

The work was begun when we were saved, but the work isn't completed... Is that correct?

[Amisk]

The work was begun when we were saved, but the work isn't completed... Is that correct?

While I am a student of this doctrine myself, the teaching is that we are saved unto salvation when we confess our sins. Sanctification or holiness is the eradication of the sin nature based on Paul's teaching of putting off the Old nature (old man) via a second work of grace experience found in Romans 7 & 8.

The full teaching of a second work of grace is taught in the writings of John Wesley. It was at one time the foundation teaching of the Church of the Nazarene, the Salvation Army, and many other denominations which traced their doctrine back to the Bible through the Wesley Brothers and George Whitfield.

I think that I agree with the original statement here, but I thought it would bring out the folks in the holiness movement to explain more clearly the doctrines of holiness. Do I got any takers?

[Redheadedstepchild]

This is my very basic understanding, which I've learned from spending time in my friend's PHC. Yes, salvation is enough and God will love us regardless, but God calls us to be holy in terms of thought and deeds as a reflection of our love for him. We can never fully obtain perfect holiness while we are alive physicaly, but we are to be always working towards that ideal. I think the PHC believes that it's only through the Holy Spirit working within us that we are even able to obtain any measure of holiness.

Like I said, very basic, and I could be wrong...

[Amisk]

This is my very basic understanding, which I've learned from spending time in my friend's PHC. Yes, salvation is enough and God will love us regardless, but God calls us to be holy in terms of thought and deeds as a reflection of our love for him. We can never fully obtain perfect holiness while we are alive physicaly, but we are to be always working towards that ideal. I think the PHC believes that it's only through the Holy Spirit working within us that we are even able to obtain any measure of holiness.

Like I said, very basic, and I could be wrong...

That sounds similar to the Christian and Missionary Alliance doctrine.

[TamiinKS]

This is my very basic understanding, which I've learned from spending time in my friend's PHC. Yes, salvation is enough and God will love us regardless, but God calls us to be holy in terms of thought and deeds as a reflection of our love for him. We can never fully obtain perfect holiness while we are alive physicaly, but we are to be always working towards that ideal. I think the PHC believes that it's only through the Holy Spirit working within us that we are even able to obtain any measure of holiness.

Like I said, very basic, and I could be wrong...
That's pretty close to what I believe. I don't believe we can obtain sinless perfection and I don't believe the Scriptures teach a "second work of grace" that works like salvation. I believe sanctification is a process worked out by the Holy Spirit in my life, but it's not an event that I can put on my calender and celebrate next year.

[ContraMundum]

Anyone interested in exploring sanctification as not only initial, but also as progressive and entire, should check out these sites:

www.enterhisrest.org (http://www.enterhisrest.org)

www.victoryoversin.com (http://www.victoryoversin.com)

www.imarc.cc (http://www.imarc.cc)

[Redheadedstepchild]

That sounds similar to the Christian and Missionary Alliance doctrine.

I don't know what that is.:confused:

My experience and understanding of things are limited.

[Redheadedstepchild]

That's pretty close to what I believe. I don't believe we can obtain sinless perfection and I don't believe the Scriptures teach a "second work of grace" that works like salvation. I believe sanctification is a process worked out by the Holy Spirit in my life, but it's not an event that I can put on my calender and celebrate next year.
This is pretty close to what I believe too.

[ContraMundum]

Friends,

One of the toughest things about the doctrine of holiness is defining exactly what we mean when we tlak about it. Wesley's doctrine is best outlined by himself, and I think most Christians would find it aggreable.

Here is his summary From "A Plain Account of Christian Perfection"

"In the year 1764, upon a review of the whole subject, I wrote down the sum of what I had observed in the following short propositions: --

"(1.) There is such a thing as perfection; for it is again and again mentioned in Scripture.
"(2.) It is not so early as justification; for justified persons are to `go on unto perfection.' (Heb. 6:1.)
"(3.) It is not so late as death; for St. Paul speaks of living men that were perfect. (Phil. 3:15.)
"(4.) It is not absolute. Absolute perfection belongs not to man, nor to angels, but to God alone.
"(5.) It does not make a man infallible: None is infallible, while he remains in the body.
"(6.) Is it sinless? It is not worth while to contend for a term. It is `salvation from sin.'
"(7.) It is `perfect love.' (1 John 4:18.) This is the essence of it; its properties, or inseparable fruits, are, rejoicing evermore, praying without ceasing, and in everything giving thanks. (1 Thess. 5:16, &c.)
"(8.) It is improvable. It is so far from lying in an indivisible point, from being incapable of increase, that one perfected in love may grow in grace far swifter than he did before.
"(9.) It is amissible, capable of being lost; of which we have numerous instances. But we were not thoroughly convinced of this, till five or six years ago.
"(10.) It is constantly both preceded and followed by a gradual work.
"(11.) But is it in itself instantaneous or not? In examining this, let us go on step by step.
"An instantaneous change has been wrought in some believers: None can deny this. "Since that change, they enjoy perfect love; they feel this, and this alone; they `rejoice evermore, pray without ceasing, and in everything give thanks.' Now, this is all that I mean by perfection; therefore, these are witnesses of the perfection which I preach."

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/wesley/perfection/files/perfection.html

[Amisk]

Thanks Contra. You and John Wesley have answered some of the questions on sancification that troubled me since college days.

[TamiinKS]

I was reading some selections from our associate pastor's library and had a suspition nailed down. You can be completely free of "sin." But in holiness tradition there are an awful lot of words for "sin." And we're not really free of ALL of them.

Semantical nonsense.

[ContraMundum]

I was reading some selections from our associate pastor's library and had a suspition nailed down. You can be completely free of "sin." But in holiness tradition there are an awful lot of words for "sin." And we're not really free of ALL of them.

Depends. :)

Semantical nonsense.

Semantics and endless hair-splitting is what theology is all about. Definitions are very important. Anyway, good luck.

[HolyPig]

I hope this helps


Is the Doctrine of Entire Sanctification Supported Biblically?

This is Don Demaray's second column on questions relating to the doctrine of entire sanctification. If you have questions on this subject that you would like Dr. Demaray to answer, send them to Light and Life 901 College Avenue, Winona Lake, IN 46590

Q Is the doctrine of entire sanctification supported biblically ?
A Yes Ephesians 5:18 tells us not to be filled with wine but with the Spirit. That is a command. Galatians 5:16, also in the imperative mood, requires us to walk by the Spirit, not by the flesh, because the motives of the flesh stand against the Spirit to stop us from living the good life (v. 17), In that same paragraph, Paul shares in precise language what those works of unaided human nature are: immorality, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, party spirit, envy, drunkenness, carousing. Then Paul indicates the fruit of the Spirit: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Paul concludes the paragraph with a strong statement about sanctification: you must crucify the flesh with its passions and desires that is, capitulate to God, not self.
In Romans 7 and 8 Paul addresses the difficulty we all have in dying to selfishness. In Ephesians 4 he informs us how sanctification works, as he does again in Philippians 4 (especially verses 4-7, 8, 11-13, 19). I Peter 1:2 clues us in on the function of sanctification: obedience to Jesus Christ.
Actually, the victorious life that dominates the New Testament is what we mean by sanctification. Does the Bible support the doctrine? You may as well ask if the ocean supports a floating ship.
Q Does this make us Pentecostals?
A Most Pentecostals believe speaking in tongues confirms Spirit-filling. They often say all truly Spirit-filled people speak in tongues. The New Testament does not teach this doctrine. Paul asks, "Do all speak in tongues?" Clearly, his answer is in the negative (I Corinthians 12:30). Love (not tongues!) is the universal evidence of Spirit-filling (I Corinthians 13). Tongues (not love!) gave Corinthian Christians problems. John Wesley once was asked what he meant by Christian perfection, "I Corinthians 13," he answered. Right on!
Q Will I have eternal life if I don't experience sanctification?
A Sanctification begins with the New Birth. The normal Christian grows spiritually. Growing is the process of sanctification. The process is upward, toward heaven. It corresponds with our desire to improve. We like nice homes, attractive clothes, good thinking, progress along every line because God wrote heaven into our natures. The desire for betterment is the tendency to godliness. But face this fact: some flowers do not survive; some Christians fail to expose themselves to the forces of righteousness, and without that cultivation they die. Demas evidently died spiritually. He fell in love with "this present world," comments Paul in II Timothy 4:10 How awful to start only to drop out! Demas, however, does not represent the New Testament standard. The Spirit filled life provides such wholesomeness and excitement that no one in his right mind would call a halt to anything so good!
Q What is my relationship to the Holy Spirit before I'm sanctified?
A Before the initial surrender which opens your heart's door to the filling of the Spirit, the grace of salvation is active. Immediately after your conversion, you were probably pretty excited. But with the passage of weeks, perhaps months, you found yourself lackadaisical. That lethargy came because you saw things in yourself that needed changing, but you didn't want to undergo the pain of repair. So you withdrew. But the convictions didn't withdraw. God's Spirit finally convinced you, whereupon you confessed your need. By the way, that process - convicting, convincing, confessing - continues throughout your life on earth. We never become "perfectly perfect." We call that level of perfection glorification, and it takes place when we go to heaven. But here, we grow by challenges. Self-satisfied persons do not sense the need to improve. The rising power for coping is the Spirit's dynamic.

[HolyPig]

Ok one more post.

Does Being Sanctified Mean I Have "Arrived" Spiritually?

Dr. Don Demaray is professor of preaching at Asbury Seminary. In addition to teaching and writing, Dr., Don likes to garden, jog, and collect stamps and books.

Q Does being sanctified mean I have "arrived " spiritually ?
A Sanctification and arrival are not synonymous, but sanctification does mean that God has made us dead-in-earnest about becoming better persons. We must allow ourselves time to mature - like plums. A green plum may be a good green plum, but not good in the sense of being ready to eat. Also, horticulturists are constantly working to develop better plums, so a ripe plum today may not taste as good as a hybrid species twenty years from now.
Q How should my life be different after I have experienced entire sanctification ?
A Paul tells us in Galatians 5:22-23: "The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control" (NIV). Expect these spiritual products to mature in you. But do not plan to pick ripe plums in February. Notice, for example, the peace of God in a ripened saint and the restlessness in a younger Christian. Or observe in an older member the ability to shoulder responsibility. He knows how to exercise stick-to-itive faithfulness even under the most-difficult circumstances. Observe the gentleness in a person who has lived long enough to know that everything doesn't come easily, that blame cannot be assigned naively, and that religious experience does not do the same thing for everybody.
Sometimes I think patience is the hallmark of the sanctified person. The genuinely Christian person lets others and himself learn the lessons of life at God's own rate.
Q Is sanctification a climactic event or a gradual process of growth ?
A Both. A United Methodist bishop, when reading the disciplinary question to ordinands, "Are you going on to perfection?" adds, "If not, where are you going?" The person who has made a definite decision to receive God in His fullness and who maintains that earnestness, has indeed experienced a climactic event and will strive for perfection.
How do we go on to perfection? First, by practicing the Christian disciplines: private prayer, public worship, fasting, study of God's Word and solid devotional material, the Christian friendship, and so forth. Ask yourself, Have I established holy habits? If not, ask God to show you His tailor made pattern for your life (imitating others leads to frustration, like wearing shoes that don't fit). Ask God for the gift of discipline; He will give it to you if you mean business. Seek the counsel of a mature Christian, perhaps someone on your pastoral staff or a church member. Sharing with someone will help you clarify your thinking; we never fully know what we think until we say it out loud.
A second way we go on to perfection relates to our behavior. Put feet to your faith and watch God's grace activate. John Wesley asks point blank, Are you touchy?
If so, deal with your feelings by frontal attack. Deliberately speak nicely to the person who hurt you, pray for him, do a favor for him. Victory lies in aggressive, faith-honoring action and documents God's active, sanctifying grace in your life.
Q Is it possible to lose sanctification ?
A Yes, of course. Suppose I renege on the Christian disciplines. Unless, for example, I suffer extenuating circumstances such as prolonged illness, termination from the public means of grace will naturally deflate my enthusiasm and earnestness for God and His kingdom. A vivid example: far fewer couples who attend church regularly (compared to those who do not take worship seriously) go through divorce.
Now, here lies the subtle factor in all this: we easily slide into a salvation-by-works way of thinking. We reason, If I go to church, say my prayers faithfully, and do good deeds, I will stay set apart for Him and grow in grace. And here we see the fatal error that Martin Luther exposed. True communion lies in openness to God; our works become the natural product of fellowship with the Divine. This openness to the Spirit saves us from hopelessness and debilitating pride and allows God to continue the work He began in us.

[TamiinKS]

Thanks for those! I'm printing them out to study more thoroughly.

[Amisk]

I don't know what that is.:confused:

My experience and understanding of things are limited.

As I understand it the Alliance folks believe that sanctification is not a one time experience as most Holiness Churches teaches. The Alliance believe that one grows into it from the point of being born again and only arrives at the holiness point as one crosses the Jordan into Heaven.

[Amisk]

If your church is Methodist, does you pastor preach on living a sanctified (a life separate from the world) life? Has the holiness teaching of John Wesley been removed from your church doctrine?

[sinner/SAVED]

We are, doubtless, justified by faith. This is the corner-stone of the whole Christian building. We are justified without the works of the law, as any previous condition of justification; but they are an immediate fruit of that faith whereby we are justified. So that if good works do not follow our faith, even all inward and outward holiness, it is plain our faith is nothing worth; we are yet in our sins. Therefore, that we are justified by faith, even by our faith without works, is no ground for making void the law through faith; or for imagining that faith is a dispensation from any kind or degree of holiness. - John Wesley "The Law Established Through Faith, Part 1, Sermon #35"