What's new about the New Covenant?

[Splayd]

Don't get me wrong. I'm not suggesting for a minute that there isn't a new covenant.

It's just that as I read through some of the posts here, it seems that some have different ideas about this and I'm curious as to where they come from.

Please be as explicit as you can in your response.

Thanks

[annie1speed]

This is an area I have done some study on over the past year, so there are many thoughts in my head about this. I will wait to post them though - I want to see what others are thinking. :D

Annie

[Splayd]

I'd love to hear what others are thinking too so I hope someone else comes to the party soon.

Reading through some of the posts here it almost appears that some think that the New Covenant is just a bunch of commandments which replace an old bunch of commandments. Please someone correct my perception of their thinking and tell me what you really think.

Peace

[Everlasting]

:amen:

The New Covenant is the New Song:

Isa 42:10

Sing unto the LORD a new song, [and] his praise from the end of the earth, ye that go down to the sea, and all that is therein; the isles, and the inhabitants thereof.

As with many scriptures, it adapts to new perceptions of the world, in a way that we all want to understand. The evil of this world, and satan, are not going to let us get back to the basics without contentions in the word.

Never offering any better feeling or comfort, just contentions. It's actually sort of boring.

Take the following scripture:

Rev 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and [that] the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

:groupray:
As a Christian with a new song, I can grow in my understanding:

When I read the bible I look for relevant modern terms to apply the word to. Since all of these things are of the flesh and of the world, we cannot take them as material. No possessions are of great importance in the kingdom of Heaven. Therefore we are God's gold, and our Holy Spirit is what makes us rich.


Everlasting

Bible Inspired Author
Moon Over Key Biscayne
bn.com
:hug:

[Lpe04]

The New Covenant is the Covenant of the Spirit. The Old Covenant was the Covenant of the Law. The Old Covenant was based on people who hadn't received God's Spirit trying to obey natural commands (and falling well short), but the New Covenent is that Jesus has already purchased the Holy Spirit for us so everybody who is baptized in the Spirit (Acts chapter 2) has the power from God to walk by the Spirit in true righteousness and power from on High because the Spirit transforms you and leads you and guides you and makes you more Christ like. It is a natural process and a relationship with God that we have only directly through the Holy Spirit that Jesus purchased for us.

In the Old Covenant/Testament only the High Priest, Prophet and King generally would have the Spirit of God upon them because they were types of Jesus Christ (which He fullfilled all three categories), so the common people would go to the Prophet or High Priest for a Word from the Lord but we can go directly to Him now because we have His Spirit and can communicate directly with Him.

Hope this helps,
God Bless

[Loveaboveall]

1) a disposition, arrangement, of any sort, which one wishes to be valid, the last disposition which one makes of his earthly possessions after his death, a testament or will
2) a compact, a covenant, a testament
a) God's covenant with Noah, etc.

A covenant is not a law is it? When a covenant is referred to in the bible it refers to an agreement? What was the old covenant?

Exodus 19:8 And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.

What is the new covenant?

Hebrews 8:10-12, Jeremiah 31:33-34 "For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more."

What was wrong with the old covenant? It was based on bad promises.

Hebrews 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

Did God make bad promises? Of Course not, it was the people who broke their promise to do everything God commanded them. How is the new covenant better?

God makes an agreement with Israel that cannot be broken. This time instead of the people saying "we will do" God says, "I will" This is a perfect promise because God is perfect.

[Everlasting]

:wave:

1 Pet 1:7

That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:


Everlasting


Bible Inspired Author
Moon Over Key Biscayne
bn.com

[Loveaboveall]

Well Splayd and Annie,

Seems no one else wants a go at it. Maybe, yall could give your takes on what the New covenant is.

[annie1speed]

Hmmmmmmm. I will. Just not right now.;)

[Splayd]

I quite liked your response Loveaboveall. I also thought Lpe04 and the others had some fair points.

I'll add my thoughts to the matter when I get back from work.

Peace

[Splayd]

I got distracted in the "silence prohibits" type threads for a bit and forgot about this, but I'm back now :)

I think this is a very very important matter, given that so many here place such emphasis on the fact that we're under the new covenant and not the old. I agree incidently, but what does that even mean?

Firstly I'd like to consider what a covenant is. As already mentioned it's like an arrangement or even an agreement between two parties. More specifically, it might be considered as an oath or a contract. It is NOT just a law or even a whole heap of laws, BUT the arrangement that is in place. Of course that agreement is a matter of law and can even pertain to law, but isn't simply a law (or a collection of laws).

God made several oaths, promises, contracts etc... throughout scripture, not just the Mosaic covenant. What's interesting is that many of the laws associated with the Mosaic covenant were already in place before then. They weren't all simply prescribed for the sake of that covenant, but existed because they simply are what God wants from (and for) us.

It's also interesting that earlier promises, laws and covenants weren't ever undone by later ones. Rather they built on older ones and/or existed apart from them. God's word is eternal and He is faithful. The Mosaic covenant certainly didn't undo His promise to Noah or Abraham or the commands He gave them or mankind generally.

The Mosaic covenant was a particularly important one. God promised to keep Israel as a special people if they obeyed Him and kept the covenant. He would make them a holy nation. They would keep His laws. As already mentioned, some of those laws were already established aside from this covenant, but also acted as terms for the covenant.

There are a few extra points that are worthy of note. While this was a covenant made with a nation, it extended to everyone. Following God's laws wasn't simply an ideal for the Israelites. Anyone could and should follow them. Several biblical figures entered into this covenant, though they weren't Jews by birth, and were commended for it.

Another interesting thing is that this covenant really didn't address "salvation" in terms of eternal life. That's not to say that God wouldn't provide it for any Israelites, but simply that it wasn't a term of the covenant. Too often we try to equate the new covenant with the old and it simply isn't an exact match. The old didn't provide "salvation" through perfect observation of the letter of the law, though it did address perfect observation to be that special nation. Failing at one point of the law is to fail at keeping the law generally. Mind you - they never ever managed to get it right and God was faithful nonetheless.

Truth is - salvation was always through grace. That's not new. Faith was always accredited for righteousness. That's not new either. The Israelites were always meant to spread the word. They were always meant to follow the "spirit" of the law as well of the letter. None of that is new. The specific commands are generally not new either. God isn't new. He still likes and dislikes the same things.

What is new then? The covenant itself! It's a whole new deal. This new covenant offers eternal life. It provides the Holy Spirit to help us keep God's law. It also doesn't determine that we MUST keep the whole law OR be found guilty of breaking it all. Jesus took care of that for us, IF we're sincerely following Him. He also addressed and completes a great deal of that law for us eternally. He becomes the sacrifice and the priest. They aren't done away with as such, but are instead kept by Him, in Him and through Him forever.

Peace

[annie1speed]

It has been pointed out to me that when we in the CoC talk about the new covenant and the new law and the old covenant and the old law, we use the words covenant and law interchangeably. And sometimes I have noticed - we do!

Question is, can the terms law and covenant be used interchangeably? When? and Why or why not?

Maybe I should start a new thread.....

Annie

[Loveaboveall]

Truth is - salvation was always through grace. That's not new. Faith was always accredited for righteousness. That's not new either. The Israelites were always meant to spread the word. They were always meant to follow the "spirit" of the law as well of the letter. None of that is new. The specific commands are generally not new either. God isn't new. He still likes and dislikes the same things.

What is new then? The covenant itself! It's a whole new deal. This new covenant offers eternal life. It provides the Holy Spirit to help us keep God's law. It also doesn't determine that we MUST keep the whole law OR be found guilty of breaking it all. Jesus took care of that for us, IF we're sincerely following Him. He also addressed and completes a great deal of that law for us eternally. He becomes the sacrifice and the priest. They aren't done away with as such, but are instead kept by Him, in Him and through Him forever. Peace

I have to give a hearty AMEN to most all of what you said, especially the bolded portions above.:amen:

It is good to see that there are some who have come to the same conclusions as I through careful study.

[RefrusRevlis]

Question is, can the terms law and covenant be used interchangeably? When? and Why or why not?

Maybe I should start a new thread.....


hmmmm

Exodus 24:4-7

And Moses wrote all the words of the Lord. And he rose early in the morning, and built an altar at the foot of the mountain, and twelve pillars according to the twelve tribes of Israel. 5 Then he sent young men of the children of Israel, who offered burnt offerings and sacrificed peace offerings of oxen to the Lord. 6 And Moses g (http://www.christianforums.com/#_ftn4)took half the blood and put it in basins, and half the blood he sprinkled on the altar. 7 Then he h (http://www.christianforums.com/#_ftn5)took the Book of the Covenant and read in the hearing of the people. And they said, “All that the Lord has said we will do, and be obedient.”


Also, Exodus 19:5

Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be a special treasure to Me above all people; for all the earth is Mine

The covenant could be kept [to some extent] and was in book form, sounds a lot like the Law to me.

The terms might not be 100% co-extensive, but for all intents and purposes, so far as the words describe human responsibility, it seems they mean the same thing.


Refrus

[RefrusRevlis]

It's also interesting that earlier promises, laws and covenants weren't ever undone by later ones. Rather they built on older ones and/or existed apart from them. God's word is eternal and He is faithful. The Mosaic covenant certainly didn't undo His promise to Noah or Abraham or the commands He gave them or mankind generally.


I think this is a bit of a broad statement.

The word covenant is diatheke which means: a disposition, arrangement, of any sort, which one wishes to be valid, the last disposition which one makes of his earthly possessions after his death, a testament or will. 2 a compact, a covenant, a testament. 2a God’s covenant with Noah, etc.(Strong's Enhanced Lexicon)



If I write a new will, my previous one is null and void. God made various covenants to various people, but the Mosiac one was fulfilled (Matthew 5:17-18). A new one replaced it NOT added to it. The "existed apart" statement - eg God's covenant with Noah is right enough, but "built on other ones"....

Hebrews 8:7-13
For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”
13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Refrus

[Loveaboveall]

If I write a new will, my previous one is null and void. God made various covenants to various people, but the Mosiac one was fulfilled (Matthew 5:17-18). A new one replaced it NOT added to it. The "existed apart" statement - eg God's covenant with Noah is right enough, but "built on other ones"....

Hebrews 8:7-13
For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”
13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Refrus

Was the old covenant fulfilled? I agree it was replaced but I am not seeing the idea that the old covenant was "fulfilled" in the verses in Hebrews you posted. The old covenant was replaced because the people did not hold up their end of the bargain, even after God gave them multiple chances to redeem themselves and turn back to Him.

The old covenant vanished away because Jesus ratified a much better one built on better promises. Promises that cannot be broken because we do nothing it is God that makes the promises, we just accept the Gift in the promise that God gives us.

An interesting note, the writer of Hebrews uses Jeremiah to determine this doctrine related to what most consider the "doing away of the OT". Quite ironic isn't it?

[RefrusRevlis]

Was the old covenant fulfilled? I agree it was replaced but I am not seeing the idea that the old covenant was "fulfilled" in the verses in Hebrews you posted. The old covenant was replaced because the people did not hold up their end of the bargain, even after God gave them multiple chances to redeem themselves and turn back to Him.


Only one person could fulfil the Old Covenant:
John 5:17-18

Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

Jesus came to fulfil the law. He achieved his aim, in so doing he became the author of salvation for whoever would follow him:

Heb 5:8-11

though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered. 9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, 10 called by God as High Priest “according to the order of Melchizedek,” 11 of whom we have much to say, and hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing.

Jesus took away what came before:

Col 2:14-15

having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.

So did Jesus fulfil the the Law and Prophets? The issue in Matthew 5:17-18 is not whether Jesus would remove the Law and Prophets, but how. He did not come to destroy (break) the Law, but to complete it. The prophecies about a messiah were fulfiled in him, now we are not under the Law, we are not subject to the old agreement. Jesus is the living fulfilment of the Old Covenant.



Refrus

[Loveaboveall]

IMO, looking at what Hebrews 8 says of the Old covenant (it mentions nothing of a fulfillment but of a replacement) and comparing with Matthew 5 you can see that they are not speaking of the same thing.
Jesus spoke of the "law and the prophets" The old covenant did not include any of the minor or major prophets. It only included the ceremonial law which was the "book of the covenant".

Looking at Matt 5:17-18 after reasoning that it cannot be speaking of the same law, because Hebrews speaks of the ceremonial law which did not encompass the whole of the OT and the prophets we must understand, what it was that Jesus was saying.


1) In vs 17, when Jesus used the term "fulfill" he used it in the sense as when He declared to John the Baptist His purpose to "fulfill all righteousness" (Matthew 3:15); that is, to fill up the measure of the law's requirement, to give an example of perfect conformity to the will of God.
2) The word fulfilled in vs 18 is used in the sense of completion. However, ALL of the law and the prophets(term for the whole of the old testament scripture) has not been fulfilled. There is still some left prophesied that has not met its fulfillment. See Dan 12:1-4, Isaiah 11, Isaiah 65:17-25. Until Jesus returns again the second time to gather the remnant of His seed, all the prophets/prophecy will not be fulfilled.

In reality, the principles Jesus set forth in the SOTM are everlasting principles. It will always be wrong to commit adultery, or kill, or any other principle set forth by Jesus. Sin is the transgression of the law, God does not change the law so it is easier for us to not sin, He changes us so we will want to keep His laws.

[RefrusRevlis]

[QUOTE] It only included the ceremonial law which was the "book of the covenant".
[/QUOTE

Just to clarify your statement, so I can understand what you are saying, does this "ceremonial law" include the 10 commandments?

Refrus

[annie1speed]

I'm afraid I've been really busy this week and haven't been keeping up with things.:sorry:

I believe the ten commandments were written in the books that contain the ceremonial law or the book of the covenant, weren't they? This is in addition to the Exodus account. But I guess I should read all the posts so I can at least appear to make sense.

[Loveaboveall]

Refrus,

If you see my post in the other thread re: the covenant you may understand my point better.

Many seem to think that the new covenant is still based on works, but it is based on a law that Jesus changed so it is better. This is just not so!

The new covenant is not based on works it is based on Faith in our Lord and savior Jesus Christ. It has nothing to do with obeying any new testament laws. It has everything to do with putting your full faith in Jesus.

Without this understanding, a person who believes we have a much superior law in the new testament to obey and thus we must obey this law to be saved, is merely still living under the old covenant that was based on bad promises that the people would keep the law.

To live under the new covenant means to put your full faith in Jesus and allow Him to change you so that you will delight in keeping the law and it will not be burdensome. You will have no problem doing this because you have the law written on your heart and thus YOU have been CHANGED into a new creature. This is the essence of the new covenant.

Thus to say that God replace the old covenant and use the term covenant and law synonomously you are saying that God replaced the old law with a new better law and you call this the new covenant. Which is not what the new covenant is all about.

[Smileyill]

I see the main difference, between the new and the old, in the torn veil. We have direct access to Christ. We no longer need priests, animal sacrifices, incense, purification rituals and the like, to commune with God. Now we commune more like the great prophits did, a wonderful blessing (and good point to the poster above). Plus, Christ instituted the Lord's Supper and the epistles changed the manner of worship. Essentially a break from traditional Jewish customs because of direct access to Christ.

I'm unsure that eternal salvation began with the NT, Ps 23 comes to mind, "I will dwell in the house of the Lord forever..."

So I see the NT as mainly a change in how God interacts with us along with some new promises. I don't see the OT as ending, I believe the promises to the Jews remain. For instance, "if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves, pray, search for me, and turn from their evil ways, then I will hear their prayer from heaven, forgive their sins, and heal their country," 2 Ch 7:14, a promise to the Jews alone.

The 10 commandments appear to apply, Christ affirmed all except the Sabbath, and even that He didn't revoke, He just applied common sense to it.

[Splayd]

I'm unsure that eternal salvation began with the NT, Ps 23 comes to mind, "I will dwell in the house of the Lord forever..."Great post Smileyill. I'm in agreement with most of your post, but thought I'd address this part. At the time of Christ, the Jews were divided in their beliefs about eternal salvation. The Pharisees believed in the resurrection of the dead but the Sadduccees didn't. That's why they were sad, you see. (Apologies. That was just awful ;))

Anyway, it's apparent from scripture that the Pharisees were right about the matter and it's also evident that OT saints were saved. Earlier on I made a point that eternal salvation wasn't a feature of the old covenant. That doesn't mean that God couldn't, wouldn't or didn't offer salvation to those who lived under the old covenant, only that it wasn't a condition/term of that covenant. God never said that those who follow His law would earn eternal salvation. Mind you, the Essenes tended to believe it was. Some taught that perfect observance of the law would result in salvation. I'd suggest it was their teaching that was affecting the early church and was addressed by Paul.

Truth is - there were indications that salvation was part of God's overall plan, but never as an immediate part of the Mosaic covenant.

[Loveaboveall]

The mosaic covenant was meant to pint people back to what God had promised them in the beginning, Jesus. It was not directly related to salvation, but we do know God promised salvation in the form of the "seed of the woman" which was Jesus.

If only the people had believed and had faith in God like their forefathers!

[Smileyill]

Great post Smileyill. I'm in agreement with most of your post, but thought I'd address this part. At the time of Christ, the Jews were divided in their beliefs about eternal salvation. The Pharisees believed in the resurrection of the dead but the Sadduccees didn't. That's why they were sad, you see. (Apologies. That was just awful ;))

Anyway, it's apparent from scripture that the Pharisees were right about the matter and it's also evident that OT saints were saved. Earlier on I made a point that eternal salvation wasn't a feature of the old covenant. That doesn't mean that God couldn't, wouldn't or didn't offer salvation to those who lived under the old covenant, only that it wasn't a condition/term of that covenant. God never said that those who follow His law would earn eternal salvation. Mind you, the Essenes tended to believe it was. Some taught that perfect observance of the law would result in salvation. I'd suggest it was their teaching that was affecting the early church and was addressed by Paul.

Truth is - there were indications that salvation was part of God's overall plan, but never as an immediate part of the Mosaic covenant.
I agree with you, I was trying to be tactful. ;)