Praying to the saints

[ProdigalSeeker]

In a conversation I was having in the EC forum, someone mentioned praying to saints as akin to asking your friend to pray for you. This does make sense. While praying done by your friend is mentioned in the bible though, I don't recall prayers to ancestors being in there (I may be mistaken). So, would this kind of intercession be wrong? My personal view of the saints is they were great folks. Not infallible by a long shot, but they represent the Christianity "Hall of Fame" (with their number retired - of course).

[AngelusSax]

I don't see anything wrong with it, personally, as to me, it's part of the communion with all the saints and the hosts of heaven that all baptized believers share in.

Just my 2 cents.

[Edial]

In a conversation I was having in the EC forum, someone mentioned praying to saints as akin to asking your friend to pray for you. This does make sense. While praying done by your friend is mentioned in the bible though, I don't recall prayers to ancestors being in there (I may be mistaken). So, would this kind of intercession be wrong? My personal view of the saints is they were great folks. Not infallible by a long shot, but they represent the Christianity "Hall of Fame" (with their number retired - of course).
Would it be wrong?

It would be ineffective in some cases and wrong in others.

Here are some reasons.

1. There is only ine mediator between men and God and that is Jesus Christ.
1TI 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, ...

2. If one does not know this verse (and many that pray to saints do not), one would need to tackle the following objection.
If, let's say 150,000 people pray to Job. How would Job be able to hear all these prayers when he is not omnipresent?

3. Also, there is a strong admonishion not to converse with the dead.
DT 18:10 Let no one be found among you ..., who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, 11 or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead.

And the Saints are dead in the body.

Now, Christians that pray to the departed saints might not do so with the evil intents that the Jews did in Deuteronomy.

Yet we also have King Saul who consulted Saint Samuel, here ...

1SA 28:11 Then the woman asked, "Whom shall I bring up for you?"
"Bring up Samuel," he said.
1SA 28:12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out at the top of her voice and said to Saul, "Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!"
1SA 28:13 The king said to her, "Don't be afraid. What do you see?"
The woman said, "I see a spirit n coming up out of the ground."
1SA 28:14 "What does he look like?" he asked.
"An old man wearing a robe is coming up," she said.
Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground.
1SA 28:15 Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?"
"I am in great distress," Saul said. "The Philistines are fighting against me, and God has turned away from me. He no longer answers me, either by prophets or by dreams. So I have called on you to tell me what to do."
1SA 28:16 Samuel said, "Why do you consult me, now that the LORD has turned away from you and become your enemy? 17 The LORD has done what he predicted through me. The LORD has torn the kingdom out of your hands and given it to one of your neighbors--to David. 18 Because you did not obey the LORD or carry out his fierce wrath against the Amalekites, the LORD has done this to you today. 19 The LORD will hand over both Israel and you to the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The LORD will also hand over the army of Israel to the Philistines."

If one prays to the Saints innocently, it would simply be ineffective.

If one prays to them while knowing what the Bible presents - I would not advise it.
They just might get an answer. And it might not be good.

Thanks,
Ed

[JoeCatch]

Rather than going as far as Ed, who states that invocation of the saints who have gone before us is ineffective, I'd simply say that we have no assurance of its effectiveness. Do they hear our requests for intercession? We have no way of knowing that they do, but then again we really have no way of knowing that they don't either.

I don't believe that the invocation of the saints is the sort of communication with the dead that scripture prohibits. I do think that it can be a powerful witness that we are truly part of one holy, catholic and apostolic church. I myself don't engage in it because of the uncertainty surrounding its effectiveness, and likely wouldn't commend the practice to anyone else on the same grounds, but as long as a Christian remembers that all of their prayers are ultimately taken to God through Christ, I wouldn't tell that Christian that she was necessarily wrong for doing so.

[CaffineAddict]

I have two problems with this. I am not saying that these two problems always happen and there may be merit in praying to the saints, but I do believe these to problems to be a real danger that one can fall into.

Problem 1
Praying to saint's deify the saints. In other words, it places the dead on a higher place then the living, or, more than just men. This may not always happen, but I think one can see how this can lead to a form of idolatry. The greatest example I can give to this is how throughout most of the places that are Roman Catholic, you will find people buying and selling trinkets for protection, to ward off evil and for good health. It is idolotry to call apon the power of the saints for these things instead of the power of God.

Problem 2
Praying to the saint's lowers the living. In other words, we are unable to communicate to God and have to use an intermediary in order to reach Him on our behalf.

[david01]

Praying to dead saints (in the body, but not the spirit) is erroneous because:

1. It is entirely unbiblical, as has been pointed out.
2. It is absolutely unnecessary when we have a great high priest seated at the right hand of God who delights to intercede for us to God.
3. It leads to all forms of superstition and idolatry.
4. It is used to "convert" pagan idols into Christian saints (e.g. the Virgin of Guadalupe).

[Luther073082]

I think praying to saints is pointless. As david points out you can go to the man JC himself. Why ask a saint to interceed for you.

I may as well say to JoeCatch "Please tell Prodigal that I do not wish to pray to a saint." when I really could just tell prodigal myself. I don't need JoeCatch to be my intercessor

[ProdigalSeeker]

Preaching to choir guys... heh heh. Seriously, I totally agree. I can see meditating on their lives and how they would handle a situation, but as to actually praying TO them, nah.

Guess I am kind of wondering WHY people would to begin with as it seems contrary to Christianity.

Not that I'm surprised - look at pentacostalists.

Whoops, I'll stop now.

[Luther073082]

Preaching to choir guys... heh heh. Seriously, I totally agree. I can see meditating on their lives and how they would handle a situation, but as to actually praying TO them, nah.

Guess I am kind of wondering WHY people would to begin with as it seems contrary to Christianity.

Not that I'm surprised - look at pentacostalists.

Whoops, I'll stop now.

I havn't been to one of their churchs yet but its my understanding that its just some kind of big giant party or something.

And speaking in tongues, even if they are not any identifiable language.

[ProdigalSeeker]

Your right... i get the same idea. Not that I would say that is unbiblical (a giant party)- but it's not for me.

It's also the impression I get when I hear about "charismatic" churches of any denom - Lutheran, Episc, whatever. So my question is - if there are charismatic style worship services for these denoms.... do they have "traditional" services for pentacostalists?

[doulos_tou_kuriou]

First, I think there needs to be a distinct difference made between praying/invoking saints and asking saints to pray for you, which seems to be the main point of this thread.
It is important that the saints are not looked at as necessary or our "way to God", the largest concern that Luther had regarding them is the idea that saints are meritous and overflow so much with righteousness from their lives that they can in some way "help" us either physically or spiritually. This is explicity prohibited in scripture and counter to the reality of righteousness by faith alone. So we do not look to them for aid or pray to them as we would God. We do not see them as mediators because Christ is our mediator and we are all a "priestly nation".

As for asking saints to pray for you, is that any different than asking members of your church to? In truth, you are asking saints to pray for you when you do that. As to saying there is a distinction between dead and alive in body I must disagree. For we die in the flesh in baptism and likewise rise with Christ in that baptism. Do we not commune with these people at the Lord's Supper each Sunday? Are we not part of one body? When we say in the great thanksgiving that we join ALL the hosts of heaven as we sing the sanctus, do we lie, is there not a bond or communication. Luther spoke of the brotherhood of the saints as a common treasury that shares in prayer, sin, etc. We are inevidably bound to the saints past and present. This includes the "famous saints" if I may, but also the whole body of believers. Our faith, scripture, and creed remind us that this bond goes beyond the boundries of death because we all died at baptism. We are all one body, and the hand can never be far from the arm.

Is it any good? Is it any more effective? I would say it is not "necessary". I would also say that one could not argue it to be more or less effective than when any "living" saint prays for you.

So this gets to the point should we ask them? I would say no. First it is unnecessary in as much as prayer to Christ is the way to the father. If they were to pray for you, that is the mode in which it would happen. Second, it can lead to misunderstandings and even idolotry or an obsession with them over living saints or worse yet turn their attention from Christ. Third, I would argue that they are praying for you already. Paul calls us to "pray without ceasing" and I see no reason that this would end in death. If we believe in the communion of saints we should believe that they are present with our prayers and pray with us every time we gather. The common treasure idea of Luther's suggests they share in our prayers and sufferings and we in their before. Christ causes a paradox of this union of past with present. Just as Christians around the world pray for one another and all humanity without our knowing or hearing, I see no evidence that those who have passed to paradise before us are not doing the same. But in the end we know that our trust, faith, and purpose should rest wholefully in Jesus Christ. And whether or not saints living or dead pray for us we need not concern ourselves with knowing entirely, for Christ hears prayer, and the healing of the nations will flow from him.
Peace be with you

[ProdigalSeeker]

While I do agree with your viewpoint, I just got done reading St. Bonaventure's telling of the story of St. Francis. At the end of this book are several examples of people actually praying TO St. Francis.

[doulos_tou_kuriou]

While I do agree with your viewpoint, I just got done reading St. Bonaventure's telling of the story of St. Francis. At the end of this book are several examples of people actually praying TO St. Francis.
Like I have said, this is why it is a dangerous thing to get into. Because there is a very thin line between asking a saint to pray for you and praying to a saint or invoking a saint to help you in some supernatural way.