Who wants to INCLUDE these groups in MJ?

[talmidim]

Shalom All,

I have received a PM from P_G that puts a whole new light on what he was trying to do. This is the PM I received from P_G and he agreed that I could post it in part:

We have some very diverse groups in the MJf today. Not the least of which are the non trinitarian Messianics who are treated at best like second class citizens having to wait till someone OPENS a thread so that they may post.

We have 1 Law adherents
We have 2 Law adherents (split law)
We have those who clearly define the law as being The Torah given to Moshe
Others say that this has been done away with
We have people who keep Torah but call themselves by another denomination
We have 2 house people
We have sacred name people

Right now some of these groups are told "you are not Messianic" and they are told this because STAFF has made the decision as to what Messianic is and what it's theology is.

I come along and try to give the decision BACK to the people.

*snip*


When the MJf was started it was possible for those who were Jewish wanting to know about Messiah to come and talk freely. Today that is no longer possible because of the way the rules are on CF. No non Nicene person can openly post in the Christian only section. Honestly our lack of bringing forth the message of the Messiah to the Jewish people sort of defeats the purpose that we had at the start. This does bother me.
*snip*

This revelation puts his efforts in a whole new light. I am in favor of most of what He is trying to accomplish here. So, I would like to take this opportunity to publicly apologize to P_G for any misunderstandings and any harsh words that I have said on this subject. Concerning what I said in another thread I will retract it and voice my support for P_G's efforts.

In that I am in favor of including everyone in MJ that:

believes that Yeshua is the Son of the Father in Heaven,

keeps the Ten Commandments,
observes the Appointed Times, and
tries to understand scripture from the Hebraic perspective in the first century context.This should include the non-trinitarians that acknowledge the deity of Yeshua.

As for those that practice rabbinic Judaism, you know my views. But they are just that, my views. If EVERYONE were included, and the rules enforced, then that would be fine with me.

What do you think? Do you agree that Messianics should be defined as I have or do you have another position?

And should we include:

Only Messianics?
Messianics and Non-trinitarian? OR

Messianics, Non-trinitarians and Rabbinical Jews?Ante up everyone. The stakes are high but so is the payoff...

[MyZz]

Talmidim,I think your defintion of MJ in
In that I am in favor of including everyone in MJ that:


believes that Yeshua is the Son of the Father in Heaven,

keeps the Ten Commandments,
observes the Appointed Times, and
tries to understand scripture from the Hebraic perspective in the first century context.This should include the non-trinitarians that acknowledge the deity of Yeshua

is totally spot on since in my view those are the things that are common to all that call themselves Messianic despite differing in other things.
I would also be in favour of allowing non messianic jews to post and discuss since that way we could share and discuss .I am aware of problems that could be caused to those weak in faith or new believers here if anti-missionaries use the forum to further their agendas but then again I,m sure theres plenty of us here that can answer their objections ;)
shalom all

[Charles YTK]

This is what we fought for from the beginning. But even up to a few days ago there was yet another effort to exclude one more sect of Messianics, the New Covenant Messiancs, namely Shimshon and myself. It is easy to say, "The staff made me do it", but why wasn't this disclosed from the start? and why didn't it even get mentioned in all these discussions? Strange how it comes up now.

The Forum should include all Messianics except for me that is. Do what is good for you. I know of a better place over at the "Living water Forum" where all are already welcome. When you log in there is peace and love and the presence of God. I will be over there.

[P_G]

Mishpochah

I am sorry because of recent date my family as been under a trying spell. And my normally poor ability to communicate in writing has been diminished by lack of sleep and poor diet. (Today was the first day in over two weeks I had a meal that was not served to me in a paper bag)

So I left out a large part of what I wanted to say but now it has been said.

What I want to do is get out of the way what I want the STAFF to do is get out of the way.

I cannot express to you how much it pains me every time some one runs into the wall of "the definition" and cries out BUT I AM MESSIANIC. But the definition is what it is.

So do we wish to be totally inclusive? If thats where we want to go I can help make that happen. But my previous post was a warning of the downside. Unfortunately that was viewed as a threat it is not it is just an explanation. And we may want to consider doing this.

Do we want to keep the status quo? That is also a very reasonable thing to propose. But again there are downsides and one of them is are we fulfilling our mission? IN fact what is our mission? Or do we even need a mission?

What I meant and what I do mean is that the decision is yours as a community to make. I really feel it should not be up to me or to the staff to decide anything and that includes deciding to do nothing.

This is your forum Please tell me what to do and it will happen. The MJf should be what MESSIANICS want it to be.

There is no reason for anyone to apologize to me. I am an orator not a writer. Be blessed.

PG

[Charles YTK]

Well YES, the status-quo would be FINE. Now that Shimshon and I have complied with your wishes and are leaving, why not leave things as they are. It's a win,, win for you. Just a little bumpier than if we had just faded away as you had hoped but your goal attained anyway. Pretty cool save don't you think?

Funny there was no mention of any of this opening up the forum to all Messianics from you until Tal brings it up. Nothing about it in the "Important anouncement for all that concerns all" PM sent only to me and Shimshon. Nothing about inclusion there. Only exclusion. And since then how many times has the story changed, three, four? Seems it keeps getting a new twist every hour.

Remember this folks, only truth is eternal. What happened is what happened regardless of any revisions that take place afterward. All this started because you wanted us out of here not because you were trying to get all included.

Here's the good part, everyone who is still breathing and has been through here has finally heard the message God gave us to bring to you all. In the midst of all this turmoil, the Gospel of the Kingdom and the reality of the New Covenant has been ringing from the threads because it was God's desire for you all to hear it. And now you have. How you respond to that is your own business. I have done what I was tasked to do.

Yeshua is King.

[Bon]

I say include ALL MJ's please.

[P_G]

Gosh Charles I don't know what to say

You spoke and were listened to and have spoken to the core of at least my heart. I think you might want to look at the date on this thread:

http://www.christianforums.com/t4709083-to-the-mishpochah-of-the-mjf-a-more-open-door.html

That was back in February. As well I have quite a few PM's regarding the dilema of both the Jewish brothers and our non Trin family.

So you have argued and you have won a fair hearing of your case. You may cry foul if you wish but seems to me as if you have an opportunity here.

PG

[torahgrandma]

what I want the STAFF to do is get out of the way.


Amen. Please tell them, and let the posting begin. ;)

[ContentInHim]

We have 1 Law adherents
We have 2 Law adherents (split law)
We have those who clearly define the law as being The Torah given to Moshe
Others say that this has been done away with
We have people who keep Torah but call themselves by another denomination
We have 2 house people
We have sacred name people


Add in the non-Trinitarian Messianics and the Jews and we will be back to a couple of years ago when MJ was full of fire and passion and teaching and learning!

Mix in respect for others' opinions, not trashing others' beliefs, teaching eachother, encouraging eachother, loving and praying for eachother instead of tearing each other down - That's what I would like to see.

As far as I can tell, this forum became troubled when Erwin declared the Jews could not post here as they had before. We have so much to learn from eachother, and I see their prohibition as becoming a "curse" if you will on CF MJ. I am not Rabbinically inclined but I do value their opinions and knowledge! I also value the insights of Charles and Shimshon! They have meant much to my own walk. Can we not have it all? Are we not mature enough to read, consider, digest and quietly discard or discuss politely if we find it unscriptural?
I hope we are mature enough to re-open this forum to all who profess to love YHWH and Yeshua and who are guided by His Spirit rather than the spirit of dissention and chaos which has been reigning.
If his spirit has guided two different people along two different paths, so be it. Let it all be heard. If a thread is offensive for some reason, let it be politely debated or ignored by the person offended.

[Glasspole]

For me, I think that as long as we show respect for each other, and do not condemn, then things should be OK. This would include, however, the explicit understanding that this part of the wider whole will not tolerate any hurtful posts. We are subjected to enough anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism in the rest of our lives, without that creeping in here too. I happen to believe that HaShem is a TriUnity, that Yeshua is how to spell Messiah's Name, and that the Church as the wider Guf HaMoshiach is usually a good place to be.

[plum]

I like talmidim's definition/suggestion. It doesn't seem like it would exclude our non-trin family, right? Because I desperately want them here in every way possible. I also want to include our Jewish friends in this as well. I miss them :)

I'm not sure what else to say except that this thread should not be about individuals... it should be about the Family and the whole. We should put ourselves aside for this moment to make this a fruitful discussion.

[yod]

The way the CF is divided into denominational streams makes it somehow necessary to define what someone means by "messianic" and therein lies the rub.

If we were to take the original meaning of MJism in the modern era it would be criticised to pieces here. It has, in fact, happened many times already. MJism began as an evangelical movement of jews to jews. It has become a gentile-trying-to-do-jewish-things movement.

Like the early community, the gentiles came in like a flood and started redefining everything. Now we have a greek spirit taking over again where every single little piece of minutia has to be defined and catagorized so it fits in a nice religious box.

If it were my board I would open it up completely and let the chips fall where they may. The problem is that, like the early community, we are outnumbered by greeks and it wouldn't take long before we are cast out of CF completely. It's happening even now.

So be it, I say. Let the tares and wheat be divided.

But bickering amongst ourselves is just ugly. Where is mercy, forgiveness, repentance, or grace?


My definition of MJ is

1. Yeshua intimate
2. Ruach Observant
3. Torah aware

Unfortunately that is not the order of priority in some places that call themself "Messianic" these days.

I've come to very suspicious of the term "torah observant" because I've noticed that those who define themselves by the torah first are the same ones causing strife in the original movement of restoring jews to each other and to Adonai.

Not everyone who defines themselves by the Torah is doing this but the one who are causing strife all seem to be in that stream. I'd bet that 97% of them are not even jewish yet they have the gall to tell jews what it means to be messianic? These goyim presume to teach torah to the jews. How arrogant!?!

They are also the ones who end up denying the deity of Yeshua. They are the ones with the mishagas of sacred name, ephramite doctrines, legalistic attitudes, and an almost total contempt for anyone who doesn't follow their particular "holy program"

I've consistantly said over the last 4 years here that this discussion group doesn't represent the mainstream of messianic judaism. It is almost totally fringe element and separate from what real jews who are messianic believe.

The problem with the rules here is that everyone has to be nice...and correction isn't always "nice". I have said some hard things in the past (and perhaps in this post) which I know are said in love. A wise man will recieve a rebuke and fool will hate you.

I expect more from you guys than from the average Lutheran.


So bottom line:

Many gentiles in the movement are not called to the messianic movement. We should let actual jews define messianic judaism and either submit to that or go to an Israel friendly church.

It seems to me that the current problem is a gentile pride issue....just as it was in the very beginning.

[christianmomof3]

Mix in respect for others' opinions, not trashing others' beliefs, teaching eachother, encouraging eachother, loving and praying for eachother instead of tearing each other down - That's what I would like to see.
...
If his spirit has guided two different people along two different paths, so be it. Let it all be heard. If a thread is offensive for some reason, let it be politely debated or ignored by the person offended.
:amen:

If we were to take the original meaning of MJism in the modern era it would be criticised to pieces here. It has, in fact, happened many times already. MJism began as an evangelical movement of jews to jews. It has become a gentile-trying-to-do-jewish-things movement.
...
But bickering amongst ourselves is just ugly. Where is mercy, forgiveness, repentance, or grace?

My definition of MJ is

1. Yeshua intimate
2. Ruach Observant
3. Torah aware

Unfortunately that is not the order of priority in some places that call themself "Messianic" these days.

I've come to very suspicious of the term "torah observant" because I've noticed that those who define themselves by the torah first are the same ones causing strife in the original movement of restoring jews to each other and to Adonai.

Not everyone who defines themselves by the Torah is doing this but the one who are causing strife all seem to be in that stream. I'd bet that 97% of them are not even jewish yet they have the gall to tell jews what it means to be messianic? These goyim presume to teach torah to the jews. How arrogant!?!

They are also the ones who end up denying the deity of Yeshua. They are the ones with the mishagas of sacred name, ephramite doctrines, legalistic attitudes, and an almost total contempt for anyone who doesn't follow their particular "holy program"

I've consistantly said over the last 4 years here that this discussion group doesn't represent the mainstream of messianic judaism. It is almost totally fringe element and separate from what real jews who are messianic believe.

Many gentiles in the movement are not called to the messianic movement. We should let actual jews define messianic judaism and either submit to that or go to an Israel friendly church.

It seems to me that the current problem is a gentile pride issue....just as it was in the very beginning.
:thumbsup: :amen:
I think that yod put it very well. I am a Jew by birth and upbringing. I am also a born again Christian. I thought that might mean that I would be considered a Messianic Jew, but by ya'lls definition it does not.
It is so bizarre to me that ya'll insist on people keeping kosher and keeping the Sabbath, because I was Jewish and did not do that. Reform Jews don't do keep kosher or keep the Sabbath, but they are still Jews. I have friends and relatives who are Conservative and Orthodox Jews and when I was growing up and practicing Reform Judaism none of them ever told me that I was not Jewish enough or that I should keep kosher (other than in their homes or in the JCC or a place that is kosher) and no other Jew ever told me that I needed to observe the Sabbath. But according to your rules I am not Jewish enough to be considered Messianic Jewish.

I would like to fellowship with other Jews who are now Christians. I would like to learn more about the Messianic aspects of Judaism - meaning the aspects of it that relate to Christ.

But I have felt unwelcome here.
I have been told that I have to be "torah observant" which apparantly means to keep kosher and to keep the Sabbath, which as I stated before I never did as a Jew and not all Jews do that anyway. I would like to have the freedom to ask and discuss why ya'll think that is so important when even all the Jews don't think so. But, I have not had that freedom here.

I am still trying to figure out what Messianic Judaism is.
So far, I am still confused about that.:sigh:
Ya'll seem to be trying to be more Jewish than the Jews.:scratch:

[Shimshon]

If we were to take the original meaning of MJism in the modern era it would be criticised to pieces here. It has, in fact, happened many times already. MJism began as an evangelical movement of jews to jews. It has become a gentile-trying-to-do-jewish-things movement.

Like the early community, the gentiles came in like a flood and started redefining everything. Now we have a greek spirit taking over again where every single little piece of minutia has to be defined and catagorized so it fits in a nice religious box. I concur whole-heartedly.

In fact I am one of the people who have suffered mass critique for posting such things as this.


THE MESSIANIC MOVEMENTS PURPOSE

As stated from the organizations themselves:

Messianic Jewish Alliance of America (MJAA):
Why we exist?
The Messianic Jewish Alliance of America (MJAA), founded in 1915, is the largest association of Messianic Jews in the world. Its purpose is threefold:

To testify to the large and growing number of Jewish people who believe that Yeshua (Jesus) is the promised Jewish Messiah and Savior of the world;

To bring together Jews and non-Jews who have a shared vision for Jewish revival; and

Most importantly, to introduce our Jewish brothers and sisters to the Jewish Messiah Yeshua.

Messianic Judaism (definition):Messianic Judaism is a Biblically-based movement of people who, as committed Jews, believe in Yeshua (Jesus) as the Jewish Messiah of Israel of whom the Jewish Law and Prophets spoke.


Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations (UMJC)
Global Vision:Our generation is seeing a prophetic move of God's Spirit among the Jewish people, as myriads of Jews come to faith in Jesus, or Yeshua, as the promised Messiah.

Russell Resnik currently serves as Executive Director of the Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations (UMJC), an organization dedicated to establishing and strengthening Jewish congregations for Messiah since 1979. Messianic Jewish congregations preserve a connection to Jewish life and tradition while affirming Yeshua as Messiah, and play a key role in drawing Jewish people back to their God through Yeshua.

Messianic Judaism (definition):"Messianic Judaism is a movement of Jewish congregations and congregation-like groupings committed to Yeshua the Messiah that embrace the covenantal responsibility of Jewish life and identity rooted in Torah, expressed in tradition, renewed and applied in the context of the New Covenant."

Internationa Alliance of Messianic Congregations and Syagogues (IAMCS):
The spiritual vision of the International Alliance of Messianic Congregations and Synagogues (IAMCS) is to see the outpouring of G-d's Spirit upon our Jewish people through Messianic congregations.

[Shimshon]

These are the biggies, the mainstream of the movement. Yes, there are many others, but these are the 'majority'. The whole purpose is to reach the Jewish people (ethnic/blood born) with the message of Yeshua. And not to cause them to forsake all that is Jewish about them and become Christians, but as their counterpart in the covenant made with Avraham, they are to receive saving faith through grace, through the promise.

The mission of this movement as defined by the organizational leaders of today states they desire to have 'Jews' receive the kingdom of God and enter the new covenant made through Yeshua. This was birthed in the heart of Jews in the dispora. A desire to be one with Yeshua, as Jews. Not as the nations. Until 1947 Jews were under genocide, not being able to be Jews anywhere for long. But since then 'Jews' who have been called by Yeshua have desired to form congregations of 'Messianic' Jews.

This is the heart and purpose stated from the beginning by Messianic leaders of our day. Till the new millenium it seems. Today many gentiles are claiming to be part of the physical Jewish comonwealth. Claiming that the gift of the Spirit of God is given to lead them into observing the Law. And again perverting the truth as the Galatians had, they teach that gentiles must observe the laws and ordinances God gave Yisrael and the Jews.

They pretty much operate within the old covenant, seeing gentiles as able to join in the nation and become Jews by conversion to Torah laws and ordinances. That the Spirit saves them for this conversion. We are gifted with the Ruach so we can observe the Torah laws and ordinances, moedim and shabbat. We are given grace to observe the covenant made at Sinai, in truth and Spirit. http://s3.images.proboards.com/huh.gif

We are not in that covenant, and Yeshua is not 'rebuilding' Yisrael according to the rulings he gave Moshe. He has transformed them, and fulfilled them. He has through Yisrael brought the Seed that would bless both Ya'akov and the nations. Through Yeshua both Jew (Ya'akov) and Gentile (everyone else) worship God.

He is rebuilding the tent of David as he promised, and he fulfilling the promise he made through Avraham. That through Avraham the nations will be blessed. Blessed not by the comming nation of Yisrael, but by the One who would come through her. The Seed that makes her holy. The same Seed that makes the nations holy. Through the Spirit he poured out upon us both.

[Shimshon]

Personally, I think it's wonderful that those who were not born Jewish (gentiles) desire to understand and even enter into worshiping God the way the Yehudim have throughout time. I think it's even better when they understand the differences between the ways Jews themselves have chosen to worship God throughout time. i.e rabbinical/yavneh, karaite, beni avraham.....

But I am seeing a huge swell in those who are considered 'fringe' or even cultic by other Messianics who teach that God is still operating under the covenant made at Sinai and has not completely, or at all initiated new covenant. They seem to want the Spirit of the new covenant but they see it as leading them into the observance of the old covenant.

The same way the Lord reaches the Christian, the one born and raised in Church theology. He comes to them when they are singing 'Oh Rock of Ages........allelujah'. When they are receiveing the euchrist, when they are in confession, when they are flailing on the ground laughing or being slain in the Spirit. In all these 'roman/greek church' ways of relating to God, He will reach you. Right where you are. And start sanctifying you, purifying your heart, as a sinner. And day by day, glory by glory, you a sinful physical being are transformed into a holy spiritual one.

He came to the Jew, and they rejected him, so he could be scattered around the world. Now the world, the times of the gentiles is rejecting him and he is being sent back home for the Jews, his holy people. To have them finally take their place in the body.

The Jewish Revival. Not the Gentile Revival into Judaism. But the Jewish revival into the body of Messiah. The tree is not physical Yisrael, she is a branch. The nations are other branches of the same tree. Yehudim and goyim, One in Mashiach Yeshua.

[Sephania]

If I am understanding you correctly Shimshon , you beleive in two law?

[Shimshon]

No, you are not understanding me correctly. Are you saying you believe in 'one' law?

[visionary]

I believe in one kingdom....

[Charles YTK]

If you have an open forum with nonbelieving Jews, then it will require openess and freedom to speak of the need for Messiah. If speaking of Messiah is offensive to Jewish members and is therefore no longer allowed , what follows is a compromise in the Gospel whereby two means of salvation is taught one by law and one by faith. This then negates the need of the Jewish people to receive their own Messiah. Now I ask you did, Yeshua send us out to convince the world to obey Torah or to recveive the salvation of God through faith in Messiah and to begin living in the Kingdom?

If you are not allowed to speak the Gospel to them, then you have denied Messiah and have refused his commission to take the Gospel of the Kingdom to all nations beginning in Judea, to the Jews. You must have total openess or you will begin preaching a "two paths to God" sort of doctrine which denies the Jewish people their need for their own Messiah.

Jews should have full access and be able to question and debate the merits of the Gospel and the Messianics also have the right to answer from both the old and new testaments.

[MyZz]

Totally agree Charles:thumbsup:

[jgonz]

I agree with your whole post too, Charles, especially this part:
Jews should have full access and be able to question and debate the merits of the Gospel and the Messianics also have the right to answer from both the old and new testaments.

[Crazy Liz]

Mishpochah

I am sorry because of recent date my family as been under a trying spell. And my normally poor ability to communicate in writing has been diminished by lack of sleep and poor diet. (Today was the first day in over two weeks I had a meal that was not served to me in a paper bag)

So I left out a large part of what I wanted to say but now it has been said.

What I want to do is get out of the way what I want the STAFF to do is get out of the way.

I cannot express to you how much it pains me every time some one runs into the wall of "the definition" and cries out BUT I AM MESSIANIC. But the definition is what it is.

So do we wish to be totally inclusive? If thats where we want to go I can help make that happen. But my previous post was a warning of the downside. Unfortunately that was viewed as a threat it is not it is just an explanation. And we may want to consider doing this.

Do we want to keep the status quo? That is also a very reasonable thing to propose. But again there are downsides and one of them is are we fulfilling our mission? IN fact what is our mission? Or do we even need a mission?

What I meant and what I do mean is that the decision is yours as a community to make. I really feel it should not be up to me or to the staff to decide anything and that includes deciding to do nothing.

This is your forum Please tell me what to do and it will happen. The MJf should be what MESSIANICS want it to be.

There is no reason for anyone to apologize to me. I am an orator not a writer. Be blessed.

PG
Just a fellowship post to say bless you, P_G, for taking this stand. I think you learned something since the Baptist/Anabaptist kick-out. :clap: Thank you for helping build community and allow the Congregation forums to build communities, rather than insist on definitions and line-drawing.

Messianic brothers and sisters, please take this to heart. The desire for openness I've seen in this thread is one of the most encouraging signs I've seen at CF in quite a long while.

I hope you are able to persuade Erwin to let all Jews and Messianics post here, since that's what the community seems to want.

Bless you all, my brothers and sisters! :bow:

[Tishri1]

If you have an open forum with nonbelieving Jews, then it will require openess and freedom to speak of the need for Messiah. If speaking of Messiah is offensive to Jewish members and is therefore no longer allowed , what follows is a compromise in the Gospel whereby two means of salvation is taught one by law and one by faith. This then negates the need of the Jewish people to receive their own Messiah. Now I ask you did, Yeshua send us out to convince the world to obey Torah or to recveive the salvation of God through faith in Messiah and to begin living in the Kingdom?

If you are not allowed to speak the Gospel to them, then you have denied Messiah and have refused his commission to take the Gospel of the Kingdom to all nations beginning in Judea, to the Jews. You must have total openess or you will begin preaching a "two paths to God" sort of doctrine which denies the Jewish people their need for their own Messiah.

Jews should have full access and be able to question and debate the merits of the Gospel and the Messianics also have the right to answer from both the old and new testaments.Shimshon, I would like to clarify yet again no one was or is doing this (what I highlighted in Red) ....and yes I agree with you and want us to get to a pure message of hope and salvation for the Jew, that is where I am at in RL so it stands to reason my prayer for this place is the same....

I cant wait till the Day when what I see happening in RL begins to happen in here....
Just a fellowship post to say bless you, P_G, for taking this stand. I think you learned something since the Baptist/Anabaptist kick-out. :clap: Thank you for helping build community and allow the Congregation forums to build communities, rather than insist on definitions and line-drawing.

Messianic brothers and sisters, please take this to heart. The desire for openness I've seen in this thread is one of the most encouraging signs I've seen at CF in quite a long while.

I hope you are able to persuade Erwin to let all Jews and Messianics post here, since that's what the community seems to want.

Bless you all, my brothers and sisters! :bow::hug:

[ContentInHim]

Tishri - I feel like an idiot - but what's RL? :sorry:

[Tishri1]

Real Life:hug:

[Keemah]

I agree with you Talmadim. I think the groups you mentioned should be included.

[ContentInHim]

Real Life:hug:
:doh:

:D

[ContraMundum]

We should let actual jews define messianic judaism and either submit to that or go to an Israel friendly church.

I wish and Amen, but it will never happen.

[Crazy Liz]

I wish and Amen, but it will never happen.
Why will it never happen?

[ContraMundum]

Why will it never happen?

In the interests of not a few making people upset, I'll abstain from answering here.

You can PM me.

[visionary]

I agree with your whole post too, Charles, especially this part:

Quote:
Jews should have full access and be able to question and debate the merits of the Gospel and the Messianics also have the right to answer from both the old and new testaments. I think it would be a great for stimulating conversations...

Benefits:

Find out
-the spiritual needs
-the historical backgrounds
-conflicts in faith
-the mindset
-the similarities
-the discrepancies
-the value of traditions
-OT scripture interpretations
-etc - too numerous to think of off the top of my head