Police, Military, Politics and the Christian

[maco]

The Bible is a book that speaks to the conscience of man. There are many things in this life that sin has brought upon us. Until the kingdom comes in all its power and glory we will be dealing with sin and it's effects.

Some people read in the Bible that we, as Christians, cannot defend ourselves nor can we be involved in police work, military or polictics. This can be taught from the Bible if we reject all the other teachings. To be a true minister of God we have to teach all truth, even if it goes against our own personal belief. Remember, the Bible speaks to the conscience. Some people may not be called to police work but this does not make police work wrong in God's eyes.

With this in mind lets begin with Matthew 5 and carefully read the context of loving our enemies and understand it in light of Scripture as a whole.

Mat.5:38-48 "You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' But I say to you, Do not resist one who is evil. But if any one strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also; and if any one would sue you and take your coat, let him have your cloak as well; and if any one forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to him who begs from you, and do not refuse him who would borrow from you. "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you salute only your brethren, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Some people take these verses to mean that, as a Christian, we are not allowed to be police officers, soldiers or even defend our personal safety.

The thought that these verses carry are not referring to people being raped or murdered. They are referring to regular people in daily personal contacts. They are showing us how we should be towards one another in unpleasant situations. A slap on the face hurts our pride. Being sued is not a criminal act against you nor is someone begging from you. To be persecuted for who you are is done daily in this life. Our pride can justify our lashing out to defend our character, which is not what God calls us to do. These are the thoughts these verses portray. They are not teaching us that Christians can't become police officers, as we will see within Scripture as a whole.

The enemy Jesus is referring to in these verses is not the one being called the enemy, but rather, it's the attitude of the person who calls the other person his enemy. Someone can be my enemy and not even know it. Why? Because it's an attitude of MY heart. Jesus was saying these things to His disciples but He was referring to the multitudes of people that were before Him. These people consisted of Jews and gentiles who would come to the Lord and become brothers and sisters in Christ. These two groups of people were enemies because of human pride. In this I'm sure they would carry a lot of bitterness between one another. This is what Jesus was referring to in these verses. We even have Jesus making a comment right before these verses regarding how brothers and sisters are to behave.

Matthew 5:22 But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be liable to the hell of fire.

When God's word speaks of loving our enemies we are NOT to apply this to an outward enemy, but rather, to an inward attitude of our own heart towards someone else. The Jews had an inward attitude of hate towards the Samaritans for no other reason other than pride. They called the Samaritans their enemy because of prejudice. God does not want us carrying this kind of attitude of hate, bitterness towards others or prejudice. God Himself is not a respecter of persons.

Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons.

Someone can be my enemy and not even know it because it's an attitude of MY heart. God says if we want to be His children we can't have this in our lives.

God says that if we hate our brother we have murdered, hate is an inward attitude and the root of murder.

It's very clear that the work of a police officer or solider is a calling by God. They are sent by God to help others. They are even referred to as ministers of God's wrath.

Romans 13:3-4 Obey the government, for God is the one who has put it there. There is no government anywhere that God has not placed in power. So those who refuse to obey the laws of the land are refusing to obey God, and punishment will follow. For the policeman does not frighten people who are doing right; but those doing evil will always fear him. So if you don't want to be afraid, keep the laws and you will get along well. The policeman is sent by God to help you. But if you are doing something wrong, of course you should be afraid, for he will have you punished. He is sent by God for that very purpose.

These men and woman are to be professionals, which means, they don't or at least shouldn't carry this personal attitude of hate, bitterness or prejudice towards any of those they deal with. In this, the police officer can do his job with a clear conscience before God and man.

Some people say that because Jesus wouldn't allow Peter to protect Him when the men were about to grab Him He was teaching us that defending ourselves is wrong. But Jesus was not teaching us this lesson here. When Peter cut the ear off one of the men who came to grab Jesus, Jesus responded against Peter's actions not because it was wrong to protect someone, but rather, because it was God's eternal plan that Jesus should go to the cross, not that Peter should never defend himself or anyone else. Jesus Himself said that if He wanted He could call twelve legions of angels to save Him but then God's will for Jesus would not be fulfilled, according the Scriptures. Jesus' comment regarding those who use the sword perish by the sword was not meant to mean those who use the sword are wrong. He was stating the fact that His mission was the cross, not to die in a battle of swords. Remember, they only had two swords against many.

Matthew 26:47 While he was still speaking, Judas came, one of the twelve, and with him a great crowd with swords and clubs, from the chief priests and the elders of the people.

Lets carefully read these verses that speak of this incident and understand the thoughts being portrayed. Jesus wasn’t concerned with Peter defending with the sword, but rather, how the Scripture would be fulfilled. Dying by the sword in a battle was not the scriptural purpose for Jesus.

Matthew 26:52-54 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels? But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?

At the time the apostles where called, Jesus knew He had a mission to accomplish for His Father. This mission would have an end in which you will begin to see things change.

Luke 22:35-37 And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing. Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.

Jesus reminded His apostles of the time when they didn't need money, shoes or anything and they lacked nothing. Why? Because God's will was being fulfilled in Jesus. But now Jesus says this will end and you will need money and a sword. Jesus even goes on to say that if you don't have a sword then you had better sell something to get money and buy one.

Right after Jesus told His disciples they would be needing a sword, one of them mentioned the fact that they had two.

Luke 22:38 They said, "Look, Lord, here are two swords!'' He said to them, "Two will be enough.''

Jesus told him that two would be enough only because they would not be needing them as of yet. The important thing here is that Jesus did not tell them not to take them.

The mission Jesus had was according to His Father's will. In this mission, Jesus would suffer many things, including the cross, according to His Father purpose. This is why when He was on the cross He said " It is finished". Why did He say this? Because the end of His earthly mission was to be (reckoned among the transgressors Luke 22:35-37). Jesus' followers were not to interfere with this for it was the will of the Father for Jesus' life.

CONTINUE

[maco]

The next verse has been misunderstood by many people.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here.''

The key in the above verse is not that we can't defend ourselves or fight, but rather, they couldn't fight for Jesus because this would hinder His mission. Jesus Himself could have call twelve legions of angels if He wanted to but then Scripture would not be fulfilled concerning Jesus.

We even have Jesus calling Peter (Satan) and a stumbling block when Peter said he would not allow Jesus to be taken and killed, which was in direct conflict with the Father's will for Jesus.

Matthew 16:21-23 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day. Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee. But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

We are not to resist evil when it comes to God's will but to allow someone to rape, murder or steal outside of God's will should and needs to be dealt with by the authority that God has set up to do such a work. Jesus Himself chased people out of God's house of prayer with a whip because what the people were doing inside the house of prayer was wrong and not according to God's will.

Even a doctor at times may have to take a life through abortion in order to save the mother or one of the twins in the womb or else all will die.

We as common people are not to take revenge such as seen in the Old Testament, an eye for and eye, because we are not professionals who are trained and are part of God's ordained authority to deal with this. We are not emotionally separated from the incident, which can cause us to react out of hate, bitterness or prejudice. God's ordained police officers should not have or react out of hatred towards those they correct and or punish for their evil for they are God's ministers of wrath.

We should not repay evil for evil, in other words, you cut my tires in the middle of the night so I cut your tires in the middle of the night. I find it interesting that when evil is repaid with evil it's always done under the cover of darkness because our conscience is bearing witness against us, but when the police do their job it's open for all to see.

Regarding war, I would be very cautious because of sinful man's motive for going to war and the fact that many innocent people die in war and that is a big problem with God. He wouldn't even destroy wicked Sodom and Gomorrha if there were even one righteous man there.

I think one of our problems with understanding God's wrath is that we think it only refers to the end of time judgment of the wicked. God has always used man and angel throughout time to bring about His will and carry out His wrath. We seem to think that just because a man or woman is carrying out God's will it takes away from God's vengeance and makes it ours. This is a wrong belief to have according to the Scriptures.

God has always called men, women and angel to become vessels used for His good will in day to day living.

Romans 13:3 For the policeman does not frighten people who are doing right; but those doing evil will always fear him. So if you don't want to be afraid, keep the laws and you will get along well.

Romans 13:4 The policeman is sent by God to help you. But if you are doing something wrong, of course you should be afraid, for he will have you punished. He is sent by God for that very purpose.

We are even called to pay their salaries because they are ordained by God for this work.

Romans 13:6 Pay your taxes too, for these same two reasons. For government workers need to be paid so that they can keep on doing God's work, serving you.

One of the problems is that there are times when God's authority is corrupted because of lack of obedience to His will. We find this all throughout the bible where men in position of authority have been corrupted and have perverted God's will for reasons of personal gain, pride or personal agenda. We also find God dealing with them very harshly. This is why at the end God will eliminate all kingdoms once and for all and establish His everlasting kingdom with Christ over all...Amen to that.

I totally agree that we should not hate anyone and our motives for what we do should not be motivated by hate this is why God has an ordained authority in this life who bear not the sword in vain.

I think we have to study these things out to get a clear picture of what God wants and expects of us. I do believe that we should love our enemies for the sake of the gospel but that does not mean that we let people rape or kill our wives and children for their sick and perverted personal gratification.

Killing in itself is not sin, it's a product of sin. God Himself has killed many over the years and has ordered men to kill. This is not to say that God has sinned. God is very clear in that He forbids the shedding of innocent blood, not killing in itself.

The law says, "Thu shall not murder," I believe that the use of force to protect life is of the higher calling of the law, which is love. To kill in the protection of life or when a doctor's called to abort a baby to save the others is neither sin or murder. God always looks at the heart of why we do what we do.

1 Timothy 1:5 Now the purpose of the law is love from a pure heart, from a good conscience, and from sincere faith.

Remember King David who killed ten of thousands but God only judged him with sin for killing the one, Uriah, an innocent man.

Proverbs 6:16-17 These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood...

Then we have John the Baptist, a preacher of repentance, being asked by soldiers what they must do. Did John tell them to drop their swords and get out of the Roman Army or perish? No. John tells them how to do the right thing in their profession.

Luke 3:14 Likewise the soldiers asked him, saying, "And what shall we do?'' So he said to them, "Do not intimidate anyone or accuse falsely, and be content with your wages.''

CONTINUE

[maco]

Then we have Jesus speaking to a soldier. Jesus had the opportunity to tell the centurion get out of his profession or burn in hell but instead we hear the first compliment from Jesus of someone having so great a faith in all Israel.

Matthew 8:8 The centurion answered and said, "Lord, I am not worthy that You should come under my roof. But only speak a word, and my servant will be healed. "For I also am a man under authority, having soldiers under me. And I say to this one, `Go,' and he goes; and to another, `Come,' and he comes; and to my servant, `Do this,' and he does it.' When Jesus heard it, He marveled, and said to those who followed, "Assuredly, I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel!

Here we have Cornelius another solider. Do we hear God telling him to turn away from his evil profession or do we hear God commending Cornelius for his ways?

Acts 10:1-4 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian Regiment, a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, who gave alms generously to the people, and prayed to God always. About the ninth hour of the day he saw clearly in a vision an angel of God coming in and saying to him, "Cornelius!'' And when he observed him, he was afraid, and said, "What is it, lord?'' So he said to him, "Your prayers and your alms have come up for a memorial before God.

God has set up an authority, ordained by Him, of men and woman to be His ministers and servants of His wrath baring not the sword in vain.

Romans 13:4 For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.

We as common people are not to take matters into our own hands for conscience sake. God has ordained others for this purpose whether they be Christian or pagan it's all according to God's will.

Jeremiah 7:1-10 The word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord, saying, "Stand in the gate of the Lord's house, and proclaim there this word, and say, `Hear the word of the Lord, all you of Judah who enter in at these gates to worship the Lord!' '' Thus says the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel: "Amend your ways and your doings, and I will cause you to dwell in this place. "Do not trust in these lying words, saying, `The temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord are these.' "For if you thoroughly amend your ways and your doings, if you thoroughly execute judgment between a man and his neighbor, "if you do not oppress the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, and do not shed innocent blood in this place, or walk after other gods to your hurt, "then I will cause you to dwell in this place, in the land that I gave to your fathers forever and ever. "Behold, you trust in lying words that cannot profit. "Will you steal, murder, commit adultery, swear falsely, burn incense to Baal, and walk after other gods whom you do not know, "and then come and stand before Me in this house which is called by My name, and say, `We are delivered to do all these abominations'?

Notice that God desires no innocent bloodshed in the land that He has given to our fathers forever and ever, He didn't say "No blood shed." This holds true for today because we're still in that land because the new heaven and the new earth are not here yet.

Romans 12:18 If possible, so far as it depends upon you, live peaceably with all.

If possible, if its up to us and in our power we should live at peace with all but you know there are times outside of our power when we my have to stop someone from harming another which is the spirit of the law in love.

What about the fact that we are to be pilgrims and sojourners?

Just because this age is not the final coming kingdom it does not mean we can't participate in activities such as voting or politics. It does mean that we are accountable to a higher authority which should make us better people.

If we look back into the Old Testament we will find men and woman who were also called pilgrims and sojourners ruling as kings and judges.

We have a heavenly calling and our thoughts and actions should be based on God's righteous judgments but we are still citizens of where God has called us to live in this life.

Acts 17:26 God started with one man. He made all the different people in the world to live everywhere. God decided exactly when and where they must live.

Even Paul himself claimed his Roman citizenship on several occasions.

Acts 22:25-29 And as they bound him with thongs, Paul said to the centurion who stood by, "Is it lawful for you to scourge a man who is a Roman, and uncondemned?'' When the centurion heard that, he went and told the commander, saying, "Take care what you do, for this man is a Roman.'' Then the commander came and said to him, "Tell me, are you a Roman?'' He said, "Yes.'' And the commander answered, "With a large sum I obtained this citizenship.'' And Paul said, "But I was born a citizen.'' Then immediately those who were about to examine him withdrew from him; and the commander was also afraid after he found out that he was a Roman, and because he had bound him.

We can serve God through our earthly vessels in whatever capacity we are in whether slave or free, rich or poor all to the glory of God according to His will and righteous judgments.

Remember, Jesus came to fulfill the law and the prophets and give us a deeper understanding of them, not destroy them.

Matthew 5:17 "Do not think I came to destroy the law or the prophets. I did not come to destroy them. But to give them their full meaning.

Will there come a time when there will be no need of weapons and no more wars? Yes there will, in the end when we turn the weapons we have into farming tools and live in peace in God's eternal kingdom.

Micah 4:1-4 But in the last days Mount Zion will be the most renowned of all the mountains of the world, praised by all nations; people from all over the world will make pilgrimages there. "Come,'' they will say to one another, ``let us visit the mountain of the Lord, and see the Temple of the God of Israel; he will tell us what to do, and we will do it.'' For in those days the whole world will be led by the Lord from Jerusalem! He will issue his laws and announce his decrees from there. He will arbitrate among the nations, and dictate to strong nations far away. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning-hooks; nations shall no longer fight each other, for all war will end. There will be universal peace, and all the military academies and training camps will be closed down. Everyone will live quietly in his own home in peace and prosperity, for there will be nothing to fear. The Lord himself has promised this.

Many blessings,
John

[Gabriela]

Thank you so much for that indepth study! My husband is a federal law enforcement officer and has been an SDA all his life (as have I). He often gets asked if he is an SDA when he tells people what he does. We live in a bigger city with a military base, so there's probably more acceptance of his profession in the church here than in other places, but he still feels like a second-class citizen in the church. As you may imagine, we don't agree with the consciencious (sp?) objector doctrine of the church for many of the reasons that you stated in your post. He got into law enforcement, not because he hates people, but because he has a strong sense of justice and wanted to protect people from criminals. He is always armed and always ready to use his weapon if necessary. What kind of world would we live in if there weren't brave people like him willing to risk their own safety to defend others? The world will tout police officers as heros, but the church remains silent or ostrocizes them. An example is when my husband had an especially evil supervisor who became irate when volunteers were asked for to do surveilance on Sabbath. Dan (my husband) said he wouldn't volunteer since it was his Sabbath. It ended up turning into a little bit of a fiasco when the boss asked him who gave him permission to practice his religion and demanded a letter from a clergy explaining what his beliefs were (yes, this violated common sense and federal law on many levels and an EEO report was made. No one said the guy was smart). When Dan went to our pastor to ask for a letter, the pastor literally did not get it. Dan was trying to get him to explain that he can work in emergencies or law enforcement activities that cannot be done on another day, but he can't do routine work on that day. The pastor was baffled by the concept that it might be O.K. for law enforcement to work on that day. He said, "I understand why nurses and doctors have to work and food service people. Buy why cops?" Can you imagine that food service ranks higher on his radar than law enforcement? Of course every job is important, and no one wants to go hungry, but his attitude would probably change if he had a burgler try to break in on Sabbath. Maybe he could suggest that the burgler could come back on Sunday so the police wouldn't have to work. :)

Anyway, thank you again for your post. It's nice to know that there is an appreciation for law enforcement by some SDA's.

[Endium]

I agree as well. Without police officers and other governing bodies there would just be chaos in the world. There are many police officers who are corrupt and are working against what God wants them to do, but it is not their profession by default that is wrong, but rather the way they are doing it.

Good post man, why is this in progressive forum?

[DrStupid_Ben]

Romans 13:6 Pay your taxes too, for these same two reasons. For government workers need to be paid so that they can keep on doing God's work, serving you.


So was Jesus a Democrat? I guess he definately wasn't a Libertarian.

[maco]

Thank you so much for that indepth study! My husband is a federal law enforcement officer and has been an SDA all his life (as have I). He often gets asked if he is an SDA when he tells people what he does. We live in a bigger city with a military base, so there's probably more acceptance of his profession in the church here than in other places, but he still feels like a second-class citizen in the church. As you may imagine, we don't agree with the consciencious (sp?) objector doctrine of the church for many of the reasons that you stated in your post. He got into law enforcement, not because he hates people, but because he has a strong sense of justice and wanted to protect people from criminals. He is always armed and always ready to use his weapon if necessary. What kind of world would we live in if there weren't brave people like him willing to risk their own safety to defend others? The world will tout police officers as heros, but the church remains silent or ostrocizes them. An example is when my husband had an especially evil supervisor who became irate when volunteers were asked for to do surveilance on Sabbath. Dan (my husband) said he wouldn't volunteer since it was his Sabbath. It ended up turning into a little bit of a fiasco when the boss asked him who gave him permission to practice his religion and demanded a letter from a clergy explaining what his beliefs were (yes, this violated common sense and federal law on many levels and an EEO report was made. No one said the guy was smart). When Dan went to our pastor to ask for a letter, the pastor literally did not get it. Dan was trying to get him to explain that he can work in emergencies or law enforcement activities that cannot be done on another day, but he can't do routine work on that day. The pastor was baffled by the concept that it might be O.K. for law enforcement to work on that day. He said, "I understand why nurses and doctors have to work and food service people. Buy why cops?" Can you imagine that food service ranks higher on his radar than law enforcement? Of course every job is important, and no one wants to go hungry, but his attitude would probably change if he had a burgler try to break in on Sabbath. Maybe he could suggest that the burgler could come back on Sunday so the police wouldn't have to work. :)

Anyway, thank you again for your post. It's nice to know that there is an appreciation for law enforcement by some SDA's.

Hi Gabriela,

Thanks for the encouragement.

One of the problems many pastors have is that they don't understand that law enforcement is a calling and is not for everyone. Many things that are done in law enforcement shock the conscience of people outside of the law enforcement profession. It's hard for someone who has not been called by God to be His minister of wrath to grasp the mission of law enforcement. The reason is because of their conscience. This causes them to preach against the profession. But I believe if their heart is sincere in seeking truth they will find it within the Scriptures.

Police officers may at times have to use force dangerous to life but it's not done out of hate, prejudice or retaiation. The moment a police officer uses force motivated by one of these traits they become guilty before God and man. And I can tell you that they will be guilty before their own conscience as well.

The police officer has three battle fronts in doing God's will. The first is the criminal, then the church, then the boss. This is why the police officer feels that the only one who understands are other police officers in their unit. But I can tell you one thing, God is on their side even when pastors, who let their conscience direct their Bible studies rather than the Spirit of God, are not.

I say we pray for these pastors so that God would open their eyes to the truth so that they can start given the needed support and prayers to the men and woman in blue.

Working on the Sabbath as a police officer is tough to grasp for those who fail to understand Jesus' principles regarding the Sabbath. Jesus laid down some clear principles in His teachings of healing on the Sabbath, picking wheat on the Sabbath and saving the sheep caught in the pit on the Sabbath. These principles that Jesus set in these situations are based on human needs. Remember, the Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath. This tells me that there will be times in our lives that we will have to work on the Sabbath. Is it something we want to do? No. But there are times in this sinful world that we will be put in a situation where we will need to be a minister for others, God understands that and expects it from His people. It was the religious Jews that missed it and some pastors today.

From what I have read in your post, your husband has the right idea. Praise God for his insight for this will allow him to be God's minister with a clear conscience.

May the Lord bless you and your family and keep them safe from all harm.

John

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[maco]

I agree as well. Without police officers and other governing bodies there would just be chaos in the world. There are many police officers who are corrupt and are working against what God wants them to do, but it is not their profession by default that is wrong, but rather the way they are doing it.

Good post man, why is this in progressive forum?

Thanks for the encouragement.

I posted this in the progressive forum because I was new to this forum site at the time and didn't know there was a difference....:doh:

[maco]

So was Jesus a Democrat? I guess he definately wasn't a Libertarian.

I would say He was an independent...:thumbsup:

[DrStupid_Ben]

I would say He was an independent...:thumbsup:
Yeah, he probably would be an independant, but going on the laws of Dueteronomy about gleaning and "welfare", I think Jesus would have been be a socialist.

[Endium]

Thanks for the encouragement.

I posted this in the progressive forum because I was new to this forum site at the time and didn't know there was a difference....:doh:

Oh, I didn't even notice that this thread was old.

[Gabriela]

You must be in law enforcement or close to someone who is to have such insight, Maco. Honestly, before I met my husband I pretty much took the profession for granted and was completely anti-gun. I just hadn't logically or Biblically thought through my position. It's really quite distasteful for most of us to be "the ministers of God's wrath" as you call it, but those of us who can't do it need to appreciate those who can and make the world safer for us. It's definately better for those who are in the profession to be led by the Spirit of God. I've heard of lots of stories about policemen's gut feelings leading them to apprehend dangerous suspects and rescue poeople.

[maco]

You must be in law enforcement or close to someone who is to have such insight, Maco. Honestly, before I met my husband I pretty much took the profession for granted and was completely anti-gun. I just hadn't logically or Biblically thought through my position. It's really quite distasteful for most of us to be "the ministers of God's wrath" as you call it, but those of us who can't do it need to appreciate those who can and make the world safer for us. It's definately better for those who are in the profession to be led by the Spirit of God. I've heard of lots of stories about policemen's gut feelings leading them to apprehend dangerous suspects and rescue poeople.

Hi Gabriela,

I have about 27 years in law enforcement. I started working in a prison and then transfered into the police department about 21 years ago. For the past nine years I've been assigned to the detective division adult major crimes. I also servered six years in the Army RECON platoon. After all these years I still don't like guns but there is something inside me that drives me to this kind of service that I believe is God's calling. Because of God being in my like I have no enemies in my work that I know of. The people I arrest treat me with respect and we still talk when I see them on the street. I'm sure there are people that don't like me just because I'm a police officer but I still serve them like I would anyone else. I even have a prison Bible study for sex offenders. One guy in my study I helped to put in prison, go figure... All of us in the Bible study treat each other like brothers in Christ. It's such a blessing.

We need people in this evil world to keep evil down. This is a work of God and those who have God in their lives while doing their job makes them a much better person and able to do their job much easier.

Well I'll let you go because I can talk a dog off a meat wagon...:D

Many blessings to you and your family,
John

[DrStupid_Ben]

For those like maco with law enforcement experience, what has your experience been with non-lethal weapons/force such as tazer, mace, bean bags (i think thats what they are called)? I am interested in this aspect of the law enforcement issue

[maco]

For those like maco with law enforcement experience, what has your experience been with non-lethal weapons/force such as tazer, mace, bean bags (i think thats what they are called)? I am interested in this aspect of the law enforcement issue

We have what we call a force continuum, in other words, anytime force is used it's according to the level of resistance.

The first level in the force continuum is police presence. Just the fact that the police are there should cause people to stop whatever illegal activity their doing.

The second is voice command.

The third is minimal physical force such as grabbing to escort to another location.

The fourth is non-leathal force such as, mace, police baton (certain striking areas), police defensive tactics, tazer, bean bag.

99% of force an officer would need to use would fall under these. Very rearly does an officer discharge his firearm. I say dischage because many times the officer will have his firearm out and ready but never have to shoot it.

Leathal force or force that may cause permanent injury or death would consist of any discharge of the firearm. The police baton could also fall under leathal force depending on how it's used.

The situation determines which level the officer uses. Many elements determine the situation such as, size of the suspect, ability of the suspect (karate, boxing), drug and alcohol use of the suspect, number of suspects. These elements may cause the officer to escalate the force continuum rapidly. If the officer is male, physically fit and well trained he may be able to avoid the higher levels of force because the suspect feels he is over powered.

Prior to mace, tazer and bean bags the police had very little recourse before he pulled his firearm. These modern crime fighting tools has saved many lives, as well as, officer and suspect injuries.

[DrStupid_Ben]

Thanks for that. I think it is an important thing for the police force to develope non-lethal weapons that, as you say, save lives. However, with the developement of non-lethal weapons, there can be a danger of complacency, and police can just resort to the 4th level in the continuum without warning. I know this is not how things work at the moment, but there are a few documented cases where police have done this. They think that just because you have these types of non-lethal weapons, you can just use them all the time because they won't lead to death, but some of these weapons, like the bean bag, can cause permanent damage.

By the way, when I left high school,I considered becoming a police officer here in Australia. But life went in a different direction.

[maco]

Thanks for that. I think it is an important thing for the police force to develope non-lethal weapons that, as you say, save lives. However, with the developement of non-lethal weapons, there can be a danger of complacency, and police can just resort to the 4th level in the continuum without warning. I know this is not how things work at the moment, but there are a few documented cases where police have done this. They think that just because you have these types of non-lethal weapons, you can just use them all the time because they won't lead to death, but some of these weapons, like the bean bag, can cause permanent damage.

By the way, when I left high school,I considered becoming a police officer here in Australia. But life went in a different direction.

I totally agree with you that many police officers use the highest level of nonlethal force because it's nonlethal. I also believe that many times an officer will use the highest level of nonlethal based not on the level of resistance, but rather, based on who the suspect is. But times are changing. Many police departments are now requiring officers to file nonlethal reports to be made every time force is used whether it's lethal force or not. This has caused many cases of abuse to stop or at least be exposed. But as you know it's not a perfect world on both sides whether officer or criminal. Both sides resort to evil tactics at times. This has been the way of man since the fall.

I helped a detective in Australia once. He was working on a scam case where this fake gaming company was selling raffle tickets to win a Rolex watch or a new Caddy. The address the company used was from where I work in the USA. I had to follow up on this side but found that the address the company was using here wasn't even real. I had to make a report and fax it to the detective for prosecuting his case.

[Gabriela]

I know my husband has said that he has at times received better compliance from suspects after pulling out the baton rather than his pistol. He figured it was because the suspects figured it was more likely he would use that than shoot them.

That's pretty cool, Maco that you have all that experience and serve God in the way that you do.

[JonMiller]

God called David to be a man of war. I Believe that people still get similar callings.

JM

[Mankin]

God called David to be a man of war. I Believe that people still get similar callings.

JM
Yep. He also called Gideon and a lot of others. Jesus only said that those who live by the sword shall die by it. That just means to not live by your weapon.

[mva1985]

God bless all public safety departments and the military. We should be very thankful for the country we live in.

[abrokendream]

:clap: Im not alone in the world, sigh, I'm a reserve forse officer, comander of my own company. You know how much flack I get. And in my understanding I'm doing my country a vafour. I searched the sop from corner to corner and the only quotations on service "military or police" that i could find was the authors praise for the discipline and courage of service man and woman. She does not oppose serving your country in any of her writings.

[DrStupid_Ben]

:clap: Im not alone in the world, sigh, I'm a reserve forse officer, comander of my own company. You know how much flack I get. And in my understanding I'm doing my country a vafour. I searched the sop from corner to corner and the only quotations on service "military or police" that i could find was the authors praise for the discipline and courage of service man and woman. She does not oppose serving your country in any of her writings.

The early Adventist church, and Ellen White as well, were conscientious objectors who believed it was a sin to even touch a weapon. It was in the American civil war that Adventists were officially recognised as non-combatants.

Here is an article by Ronald Osborn

http://www.adventistpeace.org/templates/System/details.asp?id=39491&PID=465404&Style=

And here is a link to some historical documents

http://www.adventistpeace.org/templates/System/details.asp?id=39491&PID=465400

(Speaking as a peacenick) The point is that you can admire and be supportive of people who give themselves in service to others (and not condemn), but also be against violence and war. I think this is what EGW did. On a couple of issues like war and slavery, she seems to protest against something, but never enough to call into question the civil obedience of Adventists. Consider, for example, how outspoken EGW and the Adventist church was on abolition, but then decades later, she encouraged segregated churches. (see article: http://www.oakwood.edu/ocgoldmine/hdoc/blacksda/champ/index.html)

In the case of military and police, she encouraged service to ones country, but was anti-war and encouraged noncombatency.

http://www.whiteestate.org/issues/MilitaryService.html