for some catholics... tell me more about purgatory [Archive]

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bennyk

2nd June 2007, 05:57 PM

annaapple

3rd June 2007, 01:46 PM

Thanks for posting this, and sorry I can't help, but I actually wnated to post the same question! Also completely not an attack, just want to understand. I've looked in the catechism, but it still doesn't really make sense, so an explanation in plain English woudl be great!
Also - is it dogma to believe in purgatory or 'just' tradition?

Trento

3rd June 2007, 10:12 PM

Just curious, how did the concept of purgatory come about? I am not downing catholicism or anything (I'm a Lutheran), but I am just plain curious. I have heard it has its roots in the book of Maccabees in regards to a story of where some men were corrupted by idols, and they had to be purified before they could return home or something.

Sorry for my ignorance if I got something wrong.

I am not objecting to anything in your faith, I am really just curious and it is interesting to me.

History records the Orthodox Jewish faith in praying for the dead.

The Yahrzeit Organization - (http://www.yahrzeit.org/qak.html#Catholics do)
PastQuestion’s and Answers

Click on Is this what Catholics do and you will find this.

Q) I was reading about the Kaddish and in it you state: "The Rabbis teach us that Kaddish is a source of merit for the soul. Also, when you give charity in the name of a deceased, it can abolish evil decrees." My question: Is this like what the Catholics do in their belief of purgatory? When you say "charity... [abolishing] evil decrees," is this comparable to the Catholic doctrine of indulgences? Are these prayers for purification of the dead, or are they used to provide a greater experience of peace and happiness for the dead? Also, when did the Kaddish come into being? Is it Scriptural (Torah or otherwise) or is it a tradition? Please let me know. I am really interested in so many things on your website

A) If a soul is in purgatory, the recitation of kaddish or the act of charity can help to get that soul out. The way this works is that the reward for the act of sanctifying G-d's name through reciting the kaddish or doing an act of kindness is transferred to the soul in purgatory by the person who does the mitzva by thinking, before the act, "I'm doing this act of charity or reciting this kaddish in the merit of ________." The kaddish is not Scriptural, it is Rabbinic. It was composed in Mishnaic times circa 100 B.C.E.
The Jewish religion came before catholic and therefore the custom of kaddish and that of charity was from the Jewish religion.

annaapple

4th June 2007, 01:52 PM

Thanks - that is really interesting. I had no idea. Although I still don't really understand why the Church has kept this particular rabbinic tradition, but not so many others.

marshgreencohen

6th June 2007, 05:01 AM

Pennelope

20th July 2007, 06:57 AM

Everyone who dies in Christ is assured of final salvation, but many of us still stand in need of purification before we stand before the holiness of God. In the New Testament, 1 Cor 3:15 and 1 Peter 1:7 speak about a purifying fire, indicating that nothing that is impure will be allowed to stand.

Matthew 12:31 says that some offenses will be forgiven neither in this age nor the age to come, implying a state in the "age to come" in which sin can still be dealt with. Purgatory can be understood as that state where those who are eternally saved and fully forgiven are having the effects of their sin dealt with so they can go fully and without reserve before God's throne.

Is that any help?

L3g3nd

22nd July 2007, 01:00 AM

The following link is an extensive look at the scriptural and traditional reasons Catholics believe in purgatory:

http://www.scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html

LivingWordUnity

27th July 2007, 11:00 PM

after years of being a catholic,i was like praying and believing halfly about purgatory,i don't take side on it anymore.I guess the bible is right that once a person dies,he/she will like go to a deep sleep then rise on the judgment day.The Bible does not say that we will go into a deep sleep until judgment day.

The Bible says that the saints are alive in Heaven and actively offering up our prayers to God. The Bible also says that the saints in Heaven are a great cloud of witnesses which surround us. I'll give a listing of quotes from the Bible that show what I'm talking about. I have given only a short fragment of each quote to save space. If one is interested, they can look up the verse to see all of it.

Death does not separate us from God
John 8:51 whoever keeps my word will never see death
Eph. 3:15 every family in heaven and on earth is named
Luke 23:43 today you will be with me in Paradise
Luke 20:37-38 for to him all are alive
Matt. 22:32 He is not the God of the dead but of the living
Mark 12:26-27 He is not God of the dead but of the living
Romans 14:9 Lord of both the dead and the living
Hebrews 12:1 (We are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses)
1 Peter 3:19 In it he also went to preach to the spirits in prison

Angels and Saints are in Heaven and Interceding for us, taking our Prayers to God
Matt. 18:10 their angels in heaven
Rev. 5:1-8 incense, which are the prayers of the holy ones
Rev. 8:3-4 prayers of the holy ones went up before God from the hand of the angel

LivingWordUnity

27th July 2007, 11:13 PM

The word “Trinity” is not in the Bible, but the concept of what the Trinity represents (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) is in the Bible.

In the same way, the word “Purgatory” is not in the Bible. But the basic principles of the doctrine of Purgatory are found in the Bible.

Purgatory is a word which comes from the word “purge” which means to cleanse. The word “purge” or “cleanse” is in the Bible in regard to our personal sins (Deuteronomy 21:9, Proverbs 16:6, Proverbs 20:30, Isaiah 1:25, Isaiah 6:7, Isaiah 22:14, Isaiah 27:9, Psalm 51:7, Psalm 79:9, Daniel 11:35, Malachi 3:3, John 15:2, Hebrews 1:3).

The basic biblical principles which apply to the doctrine of Purgatory are:

- Even when our sins are forgiven, there is still punishment or some kind of reparation that we have to make for it.
- Nothing unclean can enter into Heaven.
- Jesus expects us to be perfect.
- God perfects the spirits of just men.
- We can suffer loss, but be saved “as though fire”.
- The mystery of why those who love God suffer only makes sense if one believes in Purgatory since our Purgatory can be the suffering we go through in this world and/or the suffering we go through to cleanse us after we die to prepare us for Heaven.
- Praying for the dead was done was done by Jews before Christ

King David was forgiven by God, but God still punished him.
(2 Samuel 12:13-14)

“But nothing unclean shall enter it [Heaven]” (Revelation 21:27)

“So be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect.”
(Matthew 5:48)

“and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect” (Hebrews 12:23)

“If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as though fire.”
(1 Corinthians 3:14-15)

“Now I [St. Paul] rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body, which is the church” (Col. 1:24)

“Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.” (Matthew 5:25-26)

The following is an excerpt from “Defending the Deuterocanonicals” By James Akin

The Church does not deny that there are ancient writings which are "apocryphal." During the early Christian era, there were scores of manuscripts which purported to be Holy Scripture but were not. Many have survived to the present day, like the Apocalypse of Peter and the Gospel of Thomas, which all Christian churches regard as spurious writings that don't belong in Scripture.

During the first century, the Jews disagreed as to what constituted the canon of Scripture. In fact, there were a large number of different canons in use, including the growing canon used by Christians. In order to combat the spreading Christian cult, rabbis met at the city of Jamnia or Javneh in A.D. 90 to determine which books were truly the Word of God. They pronounced many books, including the Gospels, to be unfit as scriptures. This canon also excluded seven books (Baruch, Sirach, 1 and 2 Maccabees, Tobit, Judith, and the Wisdom of Solomon, plus portions of Esther and Daniel) that Christians considered part of the Old Testament.

The group of Jews which met at Javneh became the dominant group for later Jewish history, and today most Jews accept the canon of Javneh. However, some Jews, such as those from Ethiopia, follow a different canon which is identical to the Catholic Old Testament and includes the seven deuterocanonical books (cf. Encyclopedia Judaica, vol. 6, p. 1147).

Needless to say, the Church disregarded the results of Javneh. First, a Jewish council after the time of Christ is not binding on the followers of Christ. Second, Javneh rejected precisely those documents which are foundational for the Christian Church -- the Gospels and the other documents of the New Testament. Third, by rejecting the deuterocanonicals, Javneh rejected books which had been used by Jesus and the apostles and which were in the edition of the Bible that the apostles used in everyday life -- the Septuagint.
http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/deuteros.htm (http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/deuteros.htm)

“All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness, so that one who belongs to God may be competent, equipped for every good work.” (2 Tim 3:16)

Think about that when reading this Bible verse:

“He also took up a collection, man by man, to the amount of two thousand drachmas of silver, and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this he acted very well and honorably, taking account of the resurrection. For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.” (2 Maccabees 12:43-46)

PostTribber

31st July 2007, 03:48 PM

as Paul wrote, "Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: we are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." this reply was deleted by a Catholic Mod for no good reason at another thread. Catholic 'dogma' has some things foreign from scriptuire, and it's the kind of response I received that makes me shudder to think that the burning of 'heretics' (those that 'protest' unscriptural teachings) could once again be revived. :prayer:

Loveaboveall

31st July 2007, 10:16 PM

The basic biblical principles which apply to the doctrine of Purgatory are:

- Even when our sins are forgiven, there is still punishment or some kind of reparation that we have to make for it.

So atonement for sin was not made at the cross, we must pay for our sins ourselves? Is not the penalty for sin death? Where do you find any other penalty in the bible?

- Nothing unclean can enter into Heaven.
- Jesus expects us to be perfect.
- God perfects the spirits of just men.
- We can suffer loss, but be saved “as though fire”.
- The mystery of why those who love God suffer only makes sense if one believes in Purgatory since our Purgatory can be the suffering we go through in this world and/or the suffering we go through to cleanse us after we die to prepare us for Heaven.
- Praying for the dead was done was done by Jews before Christ

If Jesus did not pay the full price of our sins then we have no hope! 1 John 1:9 "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." Purgatory has no ground to stand on with this verse alone.

Hebrews 9:26-27 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

once you die there your salvation is set. You cannot accept or reject Jesus in death, for you are asleep. Jesus is the one who put away sin, I cannot suffer enough to pay for my sins. The penalty of sin is death, nothing else.

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any [thing] that is done under the sun.

You see, when you die, you do not keep "living" as the devil said in the very first lie in eden. You can no longer love, hate, or feel any emotion. You are in reality asleep/unconcious waiting for the great Day of The Lord.

Look at the formula God gave us for life in the very begining...

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Do you see the formula for life?

Body + breath of life (from God) = Living Soul.

Without a body you are not living... PERIOD... you cannot be suffering in a Purgatory, or be in heaven or be in hell. If the Jews were praying for the dead, they were doing it in vain! Just as the pharisees, in vain, kept the commandments of men. At the great day of the Lord, life will be restored to those who died in Jesus, they will be given new bodies with the breath of life returned to them. Until that time they are as Lazarus was, ASLEEP.

L3g3nd

1st August 2007, 08:58 AM

So atonement for sin was not made at the cross, we must pay for our sins ourselves? Is not the penalty for sin death? Where do you find any other penalty in the bible?

All atonement derives from Christ's sacrifice, including the final purgation which Catholics describe as purgatory. Purgatory is not a place or state of being wherein we accomplish our own atonement; it is, instead, a loving act of Jesus Christ that allows us (who, as John says, still have sin) to reach heaven.

If Jesus did not pay the full price of our sins then we have no hope! 1 John 1:9 "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." Purgatory has no ground to stand on with this verse alone.

Again, Jesus did pay the full price for our sins. Look at the verse after the one you quoted: If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us (1 John 1:10). When we die, we still have sin, and the Bible assures us that no unclean thing will enter into heaven. With this in mind, and judging from Paul's writing on the subject, we believe that those in a state of grace will undergo a final purgation of all their sin when they die.

Hebrews 9:26-27 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

once you die there your salvation is set. You cannot accept or reject Jesus in death, for you are asleep. Jesus is the one who put away sin, I cannot suffer enough to pay for my sins. The penalty of sin is death, nothing else.

Amen; when you die you are in a state of grace or you are not. Those in a state of grace, if they have sin remaining, must be purged of it before receiving the reward of heaven, merited by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any [thing] that is done under the sun.

You see, when you die, you do not keep "living" as the devil said in the very first lie in eden. You can no longer love, hate, or feel any emotion. You are in reality asleep/unconcious waiting for the great Day of The Lord.

And what of Christ's story about the rich man and Lazarus? I don't believe in soul sleep, as it is supported by neither the Bible nor the traditions of the Church.

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Do you see the formula for life?

Body + breath of life (from God) = Living Soul.

Without a body you are not living... PERIOD... you cannot be suffering in a Purgatory, or be in heaven or be in hell. If the Jews were praying for the dead, they were doing it in vain! Just as the pharisees, in vain, kept the commandments of men. At the great day of the Lord, life will be restored to those who died in Jesus, they will be given new bodies with the breath of life returned to them. Until that time they are as Lazarus was, ASLEEP.

Do not attempt to judge the inspired word of God as in error; the inspired writer clearly states that the Jews did a good thing in praying for the dead, and your interpretation of the "formula for life" is a most unorthodox one. The soul does not need the body, but quite the opposite. A human body is nothing more than an animated corpse without the soul. The term "asleep" referred to the state of having died, not to an actual soul sleep. Not everyone interprets Scripture in the light of 16th century innovations.

Ecclesiastes 12:5-7

5 And they shall fear high things, and they shall be afraid in the way, the almond tree shall flourish, the locust shall be made fat, and the caper tree shall be destroyed: because man shall go into the house of his eternity, and the mourners shall go round about in the street. 2 "Before the sun"... That is, before old age: the effects of which upon all the senses and faculties are described in the following verses, under a variety of figures.
6 Before the silver cord be broken, and the golden fillet shrink back, and the pitcher be crushed at the fountain, and the wheel be broken upon the cistern, 7 And the dust return into its earth, from whence it was, and the spirit return to God, who gave it.

Loveaboveall

1st August 2007, 09:55 PM

All atonement derives from Christ's sacrifice, including the final purgation which Catholics describe as purgatory. Purgatory is not a place or state of being wherein we accomplish our own atonement; it is, instead, a loving act of Jesus Christ that allows us (who, as John says, still have sin) to reach heaven.

Again, Jesus did pay the full price for our sins. Look at the verse after the one you quoted: If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us (1 John 1:10). When we die, we still have sin, and the Bible assures us that no unclean thing will enter into heaven. With this in mind, and judging from Paul's writing on the subject, we believe that those in a state of grace will undergo a final purgation of all their sin when they die.

So, you are saying that a person can die with unconfessed sin and he can then suffer for it in purgatory to be allowed to still go to heaven? Where in the world do you find this in the bible?

Amen; when you die you are in a state of grace or you are not. Those in a state of grace, if they have sin remaining, must be purged of it before receiving the reward of heaven, merited by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

If you are in a state of grace, your sins are covered by Jesus' robe of righteousness! You are viewed as sinless. There is no suffering that is needed on your part to obtain this pardon, it is grace, a FREE gift. Not one that has an attached suffering after death to it.

And what of Christ's story about the rich man and Lazarus? I don't believe in soul sleep, as it is supported by neither the Bible nor the traditions of the Church.

We could spend a lengthy discussion on this... To avoid this may I just point out that Abraham, the rich man, and Lazarus all had BODIES. Unless you can show me that when you die you still retain your physical being, as you do not believe then we can agree that this was a parable told to a group of people who believed this idea. Jesus got His point across by using there own reasoning.

Do not attempt to judge the inspired word of God as in error; the inspired writer clearly states that the Jews did a good thing in praying for the dead, and your interpretation of the "formula for life" is a most unorthodox one.

I am just pointing out what the bible says... you are the one that has judged it in error by a false interpretation. I read no where in my bible about Jews praying for the dead. I understand it may be found in some historical writings... Are these historical writings inspired by God? How do you know?... Even if the Jews prayed for the dead, it means nothing... For they showed time and again that they were vulnerable to falling into apostasy. The pharisees believed in a ressurection, the saducees did not... Just because the Jews believed it or did it does not make it right.

The soul does not need the body, but quite the opposite. A human body is nothing more than an animated corpse without the soul. The term "asleep" referred to the state of having died, not to an actual soul sleep. Not everyone interprets Scripture in the light of 16th century innovations.

I didn't realize Jesus was using 16th century innovations when he described that Lazarus was sleeping, then when the disciples did not understand(if this was a common term for death wouldn't the disciples have understood it?) He said plainly that Lazarus is dead.

Ecclesiastes 12:5-7

5 And they shall fear high things, and they shall be afraid in the way, the almond tree shall flourish, the locust shall be made fat, and the caper tree shall be destroyed: because man shall go into the house of his eternity, and the mourners shall go round about in the street. 2 "Before the sun"... That is, before old age: the effects of which upon all the senses and faculties are described in the following verses, under a variety of figures.
6 Before the silver cord be broken, and the golden fillet shrink back, and the pitcher be crushed at the fountain, and the wheel be broken upon the cistern, 7 And the dust return into its earth, from whence it was, and the spirit return to God, who gave it.

You have dug yourself into a bit of a hole...In Gen 2:7 the term "soul" that is made up of body + Breath of God is "NEPHESH". This was not the word used to describe what goes back to God. The word used for spirit in Ecc 12:7 is "RUWACH" which thayers defines as "breath".

However, if you need more scriptural evidence...

Eze 18:20 "The soul(nephesh) that sinneth, it shall die."

If you die with sin, your soul does not continue to live. It is very clear from scripture. The idea of purgatory is the propagation of the "orginal" lie in eden.

Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

The time for people to accept Jesus FREE gift of grace and salvation FROM their sins is before death. For when a person dies there is no knowledge, no second chances, no confession. You are asleep, waiting for the resurrection of the righteous or the wicked.

1 Thessolonians 4:15-16 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Why would Christ need to raise them from their slumber if they were not asleep?

L3g3nd

2nd August 2007, 12:55 AM

So, you are saying that a person can die with unconfessed sin and he can then suffer for it in purgatory to be allowed to still go to heaven? Where in the world do you find this in the bible?

Only sin that does not separate us from the grace of God. The Biblical evidence is summed up nicely here: http://www.scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html

If you are in a state of grace, your sins are covered by Jesus' robe of righteousness! You are viewed as sinless. There is no suffering that is needed on your part to obtain this pardon, it is grace, a FREE gift. Not one that has an attached suffering after death to it.

According to St. John, we sin and have sin. Paul says we must work out our salvation. Clearly we are in need of further sanctification.

We could spend a lengthy discussion on this... To avoid this may I just point out that Abraham, the rich man, and Lazarus all had BODIES. Unless you can show me that when you die you still retain your physical being, as you do not believe then we can agree that this was a parable told to a group of people who believed this idea. Jesus got His point across by using there own reasoning.

What forms the souls Christ mentions are not made completely evident to us; He could have been, as you say, getting His point across (a facet of that point being that these two men did not take a nap after their deaths). Also, where does the text call the story a parable?

I am just pointing out what the bible says... you are the one that has judged it in error by a false interpretation.

You contradicted the Scriptures, though you do not believe the particular part of Scripture which you contradicted to be inspired.

I read no where in my bible about Jews praying for the dead.

Probably because your Bible is missing canonical books. The passage I am referring to is found in 2 Maccabees.

Even if the Jews prayed for the dead, it means nothing... For they showed time and again that they were vulnerable to falling into apostasy. The pharisees believed in a ressurection, the saducees did not... Just because the Jews believed it or did it does not make it right.

It might mean nothing, if the passage in Maccabees did not state specifically that it was a righteous thing to do.

I didn't realize Jesus was using 16th century innovations when he described that Lazarus was sleeping, then when the disciples did not understand(if this was a common term for death wouldn't the disciples have understood it?) He said plainly that Lazarus is dead.

Christ wasn't; that's my point (the disciples, who had by this time already proven themselves to be fairly obtuse, are not a reliable source for what was and was not easily understandable).

You have dug yourself into a bit of a hole...In Gen 2:7 the term "soul" that is made up of body + Breath of God is "NEPHESH". This was not the word used to describe what goes back to God. The word used for spirit in Ecc 12:7 is "RUWACH" which thayers defines as "breath".

You are right that "ruwach" in its literal meaning is "wind" or even "breath," but it is clearly used here figuratively as soul, which is why it is translated as such by all mainstream translations of the Bible.

Nephesh was probably not used in this instance because, well, nephesh can mean so many different living things. Check out Genesis 1:21, where the word is used to describe all living creatures. Nephesh is often identified simply with life (or the act of living); it cannot be interpreted reliably as always and everywhere representing the eternal soul which lives on past the death of our bodies (and is rather unsleepy).

Even if this were not the case (and a common sense reading of the Bible certainly points to it as being the case), why does St. Paul write the following:

And may the God of peace himself sanctify you in all things; that your whole spirit, and soul, and body, may be preserved blameless in the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Thessalonians 5:23)

He clearly makes a distinction between spirit, soul, and body.

Eze 18:20 "The soul(nephesh) that sinneth, it shall die."

Same concept as above.

If you die with sin, your soul does not continue to live. It is very clear from scripture. The idea of purgatory is the propagation of the "orginal" lie in eden.

We all have sin, and anyone who says they do not is a liar, according to St. John. You seem to be looking at purgatory as a "second chance." It is not. Those who go to purgatory (or who are purged; we really don't know what form it takes) are there because they are under a state of grace, but are not completely clean from sin. Christ, in a loving act that finalizes their salvation purges them from all sin, allowing them to enter into His heavenly rest.

The time for people to accept Jesus FREE gift of grace and salvation FROM their sins is before death.

Amen. None who die outside the grace of God will see eternal life. We must all turn to the mercy of God and cooperate with His grace, because it is only by His grace that we can be saved.

For when a person dies there is no knowledge, no second chances, no confession. You are asleep, waiting for the resurrection of the righteous or the wicked.

While I agree there are no second chances, I of course disagree that there is any sleeping.

1 Thessolonians 4:15-16 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Why would Christ need to raise them from their slumber if they were not asleep?

You're taking the passage far too literally; again, the reference is to the state of being dead (or the fact of the person having died). There is no evidence here to suggest the soul itself sleeps. The dead rising, of course, refers to the resurrection of the bodies of those who died.

MrPolo

7th August 2007, 07:00 PM

PostTribber

29th August 2007, 04:18 PM

Logically, unless a believing, practicing Christian is in the perfect state that he would be in heaven, one has to conclude that God will "purify" that person to become a perfect heavenly being after death. The whole "denies the sufficiency" of Christ argument has been rebuked ad nauseum, especially since that logic would nullify things like us having to repent or ascending to faith.
...and He will 'purify' "all that the Father has given Me" at the Resurrection, as it is written, "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump (not 'pergatory!): for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality." (1 Corinthians 15:51-53) Christ is coming for a church 'without spot or wrinkle', but that doesn't happen until He comes. Even so, Lord Jesus, come! :amen:

plainswolf

4th September 2007, 09:59 PM

A friend of mine once described Purgatory in an easily understandable manner: Nothing that is not perfect can enter the kingdom of Heaven, and if there is any imperfection left in us after we die it can be a painful experiece to look upon In the incomprehensible perfection that is God. This is similar to a man emerging from a dark place who has to let his eyes adjust to the brightness of of the sunlight. A person in God's grace who dies has to let their eyes adjust to the brightness of God, and this adjustment might be painful. Purgatory is a place wherein a man can let his eyes adjust to the incomprehensible brightness of God..

"Relevant Scripture

Job 19:21 "Have pity on me, have pity on my, at least you my friends, because the Hand of the Lord hath touched me."

2 Samuel 12:13-16
David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the LORD." And Nathan said to David, "The LORD also has put away your sin; you shall not die. Nevertheless, because by this deed you have utterly scorned the LORD, the child that is born to you shall die." Then Nathan went to his house. And the LORD struck the child that Uri'ah's wife bore to David, and it became sick. David therefore besought God for the child; and David fasted, and went in and lay all night upon the ground. [Note that God has "put away" David's sins, but David still fasts. This is the same as in Numbers, when Moses was still excluded from the Promised Land even after he was forgiven for his sin of striking the rock twice with his rod.]

Ecclesiasticus 7:37 "A gift hath grace in the sight of all the living: and restrain not grace from the dead."

Ecclesiasticus 24:45 "And I will penetrate all the lower parts of the earth, and behols all that sleep, and will enlighten all that hope in the Lord."

2 Maccabees 12:43-46
He also took up a collection, man by man, to the amount of two thousand drachmas of silver, and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this he acted very well and honorably, taking account of the resurrection. For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.

Wisdom 3:1-7
But the souls of the just are in God's hand; no torment will touch them. in the eyes of the foolish they seemed to be dead; their departure was reckoned as defeat, and their going from us a disaster. But they are at peace, for though in the sight of men they may suffer punishment, they have a sure hope of immortality, and after a little chastisement they will receive great blessings, because God has tested them and found them worthy to be His. He put them to the proof like gold in a crucible, and found them acceptable like an offering burnt whole on the altar. In the hour of their judgement they will shine in glory and will sweep over the world like sparks through stubble."

Isaiah 66:15-16
For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.

Daniel 12:2
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Daniel 12:10
Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

Zechariah 9:11 "Thou also, by the blood of Thy testament, has sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein there is no water."

Zechariah 13:9
I will lead that third into the fire, and refine them as silver is refined, test them as gold is tested. They will call on my name and I shall listen; and I shall say: These are my people; and each will say, "Yahweh is my God!"

Malachi 3:2-3
But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap: And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.
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Matthew 5:26
Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing. [Note He didn't say, "until I pay the last farthing for you." He JUSTIFIES us -- without Him we can NEVER justify ourselves! Nothing we do can EVER get us into Heaven without His Blood. But we are expected to grow up, too. Our Father is wise.]

Matthew 12:32
And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come

Luke 12:47-48
And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Luke 12:58-59
When thou goest with thine adversary to the magistrate, as thou art in the way, give diligence that thou mayest be delivered from him; lest he hale thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and the officer cast thee into prison. I tell thee, thou shalt not depart thence, till thou hast paid the very last mite. [RSV: "As you go with your accuser before the magistrate, make an effort to settle with him on the way, lest he drag you to the judge, and the judge hand you over to the officer, and the officer put you in prison. I tell you, you will never get out till you have paid the very last copper."]

1 Corinthians 3:13-15
Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

2 Timothy 1:16-18
The Lord give mercy unto the house of Onesiphorus [who just died]; for he oft refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain: But, when he was in Rome, he sought me out very diligently, and found me. The Lord grant unto him that he may find mercy of the Lord in that day: and in how many things he ministered unto me at Ephesus, thou knowest very well.

Hebrews 2:27-28
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Hebrews 12:5-8 "5 And you have forgotten the consolation which speaketh to you, as unto children, saying: My son, neglect not the discipline of the Lord: neither be thou wearied whilst thou art rebuked by him. 6 For whom the Lord loveth he chastiseth: and he scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. 7 Persevere under discipline. God dealeth with you as with his sons. For what son is there whom the father doth not correct? 8 But if you be without chastisement, whereof all are made partakers, then are you bastards and not sons."

Hebrews 12:14
Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord

Hebrews 12:22-23
But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, ... and to the spirits of just men made perfect

I Peter 3:16-19
Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ. For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing. For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

1 Peter 4:6
For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. [Comment: These dead could not have been in Hell; there's no escaping Hell. They couldn't have been in Heaven. So where were they?]

Revelation 21:10, 27
And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God... And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Matthew 5:48 "Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect."
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Loveaboveall

5th September 2007, 02:15 PM

You make a good illustration that is easily understood... the problem is that what is easily understood is not from scripture! All that is required of our sins was paid for by Jesus. He is the all and all, the perfect sacrifice. We are viewed as holy and perfect in heaven's eyes because Jesus covers us with His robe of righteousness. You claim that one must stand alone and be holy of himself, by the "purifiying" that takes place in purgatory, that the suffering that one undergoes makes him holy. Sorry my friend, this is not what the bible teaches. The bible teaches that Jesus suffered and died for my sins and was the PERFECT sacrifice. How can I add to perfection by suffering? I will claim Jesus perfection for my own and His robe of righteousness will cover my unrighteousness. I feel sorry for you that you can not do the same

PostTribber

8th September 2007, 10:39 AM

Purgatory is a place wherein a man can let his eyes adjust to the incomprehensible brightness of God.
"As soon a coin in coffer rings, the soul from purgatory springs." isn't that why Pope Leo X made Johann Tetzel commissioner of indulgences for all Germany, to help pay "for the ongoing construction of St. Peter's Basilica?" nice little scam!

MrPolo

18th September 2007, 03:06 PM

Logic alone should tell a person there is a Purgational stage after death. Because we are prone to sin in this life, but not prone to sin in the afterlife...therefore God will transform our nature. Catholics call this purification Purgatory. There is much Scripture that references this, despite the denials. :)

MrPolo

18th September 2007, 03:17 PM

Sorry my friend, this is not what the bible teaches. The bible teaches that Jesus suffered and died for my sins and was the PERFECT sacrifice. How can I add to perfection by suffering?

Actually our participation is required in the perfect sacrifice. If it was the blanket sacrifice you state, no one would go to hell.

Corinthians 1:24
Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church.

So the Bible DOES teach the value of suffering. Here and many other places.

david01

18th October 2007, 08:39 PM

For those who are interested, you might want to view my poll "Who Goes to Purgatory?" in the Apostolic Church forum. The poll itself is interesting, but more interesting are the postings to it. It will provide a fuller understanding of the doctrine

Rhamiel

22nd October 2007, 02:35 PM

only apostolic christians can post in that section though

plmarquette

24th October 2007, 04:18 PM

DrBubbaLove

20th November 2007, 02:28 AM

Purgatory also addresses the idea of there being consequences for sin in this life, even after forgiveness sin has consequences that we suffer in this life, we call this temporal punishment (simply meaning punishment in this life).
It is really no different than the idea of forgiving someone but them still being held responsible for their offense. You forgive the child for making a mess but they still have to clean it up is a simple example. Purification to restore the relationship between child and parent took two steps; child being sorry then forgiven, but then child experiencing punishment for the offense. Again over-simplifies but the concept is similar.

The thought then becomes that for any given sin there might be a given level or degree of temporal punishment due. Consider then someone dying before fully experiencing the temporal punishment for their sin(s), whatever it might be. Justice demands a punishment due.
Purgatory then represents the process of the completion of that punishment, the finishing of a process to restore that person's relationship with God.
Note since it is a completion of a process already begun in this life (person was already forgiven) that this precludes someone bound for Hell getting a "second" chance.
Properly understood, Purgatory is not a "second" chance, it is a finishing process for someone who is going to Heaven. Anyone experiencing Purgatory is eventually (if time has meaning there) going to Heaven.

narnia59

20th November 2007, 04:49 PM

I loved the teaching John Paul II did on this. Here are some excerpts (highlights mine):

For those who find themselves in a condition of being open to God, but still imperfectly, the journey towards full beatitude requires a purification, which the faith of the Church illustrates in the doctrine of "Purgatory"

In Sacred Scripture, we can grasp certain elements that help us to understand the meaning of this doctrine, even if it is not formally described. They express the belief that we cannot approach God without undergoing some kind of purification.

In the New Testament Christ is presented as the intercessor who assumes the functions of high priest on the day of expiation (cf. Heb 5: 7; 7: 25). But in him the priesthood is presented in a new and definitive form. He enters the heavenly shrine once and for all, to intercede with God on our behalf (cf. Heb 9: 23-26, especially, v. 24). He is both priest and "victim of expiation" for the sins of the whole world (cf. 1 Jn 2: 2).

Jesus, as the great intercessor who atones for us, will fully reveal himself at the end of our life when he will express himself with the offer of mercy, but also with the inevitable judgement for those who refuse the Father's love and forgiveness.
This offer of mercy does not exclude the duty to present ourselves to God, pure and whole, rich in that love which Paul calls a "[bond] of perfect harmony" (Col 3: 14).

In following the Gospel exhortation to be perfect like the heavenly Father (cf. Mt 5: 48) during our earthly life, we are called to grow in love, to be sound and flawless before God the Father "at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all his saints" (1 Thes 3: 12f.). Moreover, we are invited to "cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit" (2 Cor 7: 1; cf. 1 Jn 3: 3), because the encounter with God requires absolute purity.

Every trace of attachment to evil must be eliminated, every imperfection of the soul corrected. Purification must be complete, and indeed this is precisely what is meant by the Church's teaching on purgatory. The term does not indicate a place, but a condition of existence. Those who, after death, exist in a state of purification, are already in the love of Christ who removes from them the remnants of imperfection .

eyeballdub

8th December 2007, 10:43 PM

"I came to cast fire on the earth, and would that it were already kindled! I have a baptism to be baptized
with, and how great is my distress until it is accomplished! Do you think that I have come to give peace on
earth? No, I tell you, but rather division." (Luke 12:49-51)

"I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, so that you may be rich, and white garments so that
you may clothe yourself and the shame of your nakedness may not be seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, so that you may see." (Revelation 3:18)

"And have mercy on those who doubt; save others by snatching them out of the fire;
to others show mercy with fear, hating even the garment stained by the flesh."
(Jude 1:22-23)

Don5925

20th December 2007, 09:02 PM

The OP seemed to be in good faith and an honest attempt to gain understanding of a concept. It was not about whether the idea of purgatory was a good thing. Why then were so many compelled to argue against it?

Catholic Christian

6th January 2008, 05:16 PM

Purgatory is ONLY FOR THE SAVED. It is NOT a second chance, and it is NOT a third place. You could say it is the "doormat" in front of heaven's door where you have to wipe your feet before you go in. (Poor analogy, but you get the point.) The purification is necessary because, as Scripture teaches, nothing unclean will enter the presence of God in heaven (Rev. 21:27) and, while we may die with our mortal sins forgiven, there can still be many impurities in us, specifically venial sins and the temporal punishment due to sins already forgiven.

When we die, we undergo what is called the particular, or individual, judgment. Scripture says that "it is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment" (Heb. 9:27). We are judged instantly and receive our reward, for good or ill, "Heaven" or "Hell". We know at once what our final destiny will be. So, why would anyone go to purgatory? To be cleansed, for "nothing unclean shall enter [heaven]" (Rev. 21:27). Anyone who has not been completely freed of sin and its effects is, to some extent, "unclean." Through repentance he may have gained the grace needed to be worthy of heaven, which is to say, he has been forgiven and his soul is spiritually alive. But that’s not sufficient for gaining entrance into heaven. He needs to be cleansed completely.

The Catechism Of The Catholic Church states:

CCC 1030 - "All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven."
CCC 1031 - "The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned... ..by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire: Cf. 1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7."

Catholic Christian

8th January 2008, 05:09 PM

delete

Athanasias

24th January 2008, 06:20 PM

Purgatory and its reality! What does it mean? Why do we believe it?
Purgatory and its reality

Simply put purgatory is the final rush of our sanctification(Being made holy and perfected) by the Power and fire of Gods love(by Virtue of Christ Jesus cross) in order for us to enter heavenly glory. It is final purification. We are purged by the fire of God and spiritually cleansed in this life in suffering if we unite it to Christ in prayer and in the next if we not completely sanctified. Paul uses the analogy of fire in 1 Cor 3:10-15 to describe this reality. Heaven is like the public swimming pool, in heaven there can be no sin or anything unclean(Rev 21:27). Purgatory is like the shower you must take before entering into the swimming pool. Of coarse the soap and water is the Holy spirit cleaning you(sanctifying you) to enter into glory. All of this is done by virtue of Christ Cross. The Cross is sanctification accomplished. Purgatory and suffering on earth is sanctification applied. The fathers of the Church spoke on this as well.

God bless,

In Jesus the King through Mary the Queen Mother,
Athanasius

Catholic Christian

26th January 2008, 04:35 PM

Purgatory is ONLY FOR THE SAVED. It is NOT a second chance, and it is NOT a third place. You could say it is the "doormat" in front of heaven's door where you have to wipe your feet before you go in. (Poor analogy, but you get the point.) The purification is necessary because, as Scripture teaches, nothing unclean will enter the presence of God in heaven (Rev. 21:27) and, while we may die with our mortal sins forgiven, there can still be many impurities in us, specifically venial sins and the temporal punishment due to sins already forgiven.

When we die, we undergo what is called the particular, or individual, judgment. Scripture says that "it is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment" (Heb. 9:27). We are judged instantly and receive our reward, for good or ill, "Heaven" or "Hell". We know at once what our final destiny will be. So, why would anyone go to purgatory? To be cleansed, for "nothing unclean shall enter [heaven]" (Rev. 21:27). Anyone who has not been completely freed of sin and its effects is, to some extent, "unclean." Through repentance he may have gained the grace needed to be worthy of heaven, which is to say, he has been forgiven and his soul is spiritually alive. But that’s not sufficient for gaining entrance into heaven. He needs to be cleansed completely.

The Catechism Of The Catholic Church states:

CCC 1030 - "All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven."

CCC 1031 - "The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned... ..by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire: Cf. 1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7."

Source(s)
http://www.fisheaters.com/purgatory.html (http://www.fisheaters.com/purgatory.html)
http://www.catholic.com/library/Purgatory.asp (http://www.catholic.com/library/Purgatory.asp)
http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1sect2chpt3art12.htm#1029 (http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1sect2chpt3art12.htm#1029)

onwingsaseagles

11th August 2008, 08:12 PM