HaNotsri
2nd June 2007, 02:02 PM
Hi everyone,
Once again the Messianic forum on CF is divided into tribes. Strife and distress are abound here and it's generally making it an overall unpleasant experience (once again...no offense to anyone or the mods intended).
As with many ongoing tiffs, this one seems to be about the same old thing. It's been six months of bickering between members of our corner of CF and it's all about the value of (or lack there of) Jewish tradition in the Messianic world. Especially when it comes to the concept of the Oral Torah, the writings of Chaz"l, and the commentaries of great rabbis throughout the centuries.
It's a heated a topic and I think there are plenty of gross misunderstandings of the other in both camps. One side claims that it is potentially spiritually dangerous for Messianic leaders, organizations, and/or congregations to use these sources in their teachings or practicing them in their lives. A main reason for this is it could lead astray certain people and push them away from Jesus to pursue conversion to Judaism. I think that's a valid concern, after all I WAS a product of that. I saw the beauty and appeal in Orthodox Judaism and left Jesus for three years for it. So it is a real concern...
...if people, don't take responsibility for themselves and spiritual well-being. I was like the verse that was shared on Wags thread by Heynanei: They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. It is not the rabbis or Chaz"l who are leading anyone astray by their teachings. That was never their purpose. They didn't codify the Oral Torah or carry on a thousands years old tradition in order to destroy the faith and lead away from Jesus those Messianic believers in the 20th and 21st centuries. They spoke to and for traditional Jews of their time and the centuries to come. Certainly the g'dolim of today aren't trying to do that either. It is the individuals themselves that allow themselves to be drawn to it, just as I did.
The other side claims that there is value in learning the traditions of the past. That traditional Judaism has a lot to offer in the way of ethics, morals, parables, and practical Torah observance as a result of this thousands years old tradition. I can appreciate that as well because of my experience. I can't think of any one person or organization that places value in this and that puts these writings and traditions above what scripture states and what Jesus says. I have yet to see any sort of proof that these things are being elevated above what God has revealed to us. I think anyone on this forum would be quick to condemn anything or anyone who would take such a position. If there is anything in any of the traditional writings of Judaism or Christianity that negates or is elevated above God, Jesus, His Holy Spirit, His Word by any organization or person, they should be quickly corrected and condemned by anyone in the body of Christ, especially our little portion of that body.
One last thing before my proposal. I don't like the throwing around of p'sukim of the Gemara or any other rabbinic writing like one knows what they mean or the context in which they were used. Anyone can copy and paste a pasuk from a website. I could cut and paste p'sukim from the Gemara that counters the assertions that rabbinic writings are superior to scripture that were posted on another thread just as easily. That doesn't mean I necessarily know the entire context of verse. It does nothing to further anyone's cause. The same would go for any writings of the Church Fathers or the medieval reformers. There's a lot of garbage out there on the web that seeks to defame one group or another (whether it's the Jewish people or the Church Fathers or other Christians).
Anyhow, on to the proposal. I would like to ask that moderators prayerfully consider creating a subforum within the Messianic on CF that would specifically for the "Rabbinic vs. Non-Rabbinic" debate. I feel like this issue has cluttered up enough of the space and time of the main forum and should be set aside in its own forum. This would include things related to what the Talmud says or supposedly says, the merits or lack there of in partaking in traditional Jewish practice, the Divinity or lack there of of the Oral Torah, etc. Basically all the issues that we've seen over and over on SOOO many threads. I just don't feel like this issue is going to die at all and needs to be at least contained in a different section of our forum.
Anyways, those are my thoughts.
Michael
Once again the Messianic forum on CF is divided into tribes. Strife and distress are abound here and it's generally making it an overall unpleasant experience (once again...no offense to anyone or the mods intended).
As with many ongoing tiffs, this one seems to be about the same old thing. It's been six months of bickering between members of our corner of CF and it's all about the value of (or lack there of) Jewish tradition in the Messianic world. Especially when it comes to the concept of the Oral Torah, the writings of Chaz"l, and the commentaries of great rabbis throughout the centuries.
It's a heated a topic and I think there are plenty of gross misunderstandings of the other in both camps. One side claims that it is potentially spiritually dangerous for Messianic leaders, organizations, and/or congregations to use these sources in their teachings or practicing them in their lives. A main reason for this is it could lead astray certain people and push them away from Jesus to pursue conversion to Judaism. I think that's a valid concern, after all I WAS a product of that. I saw the beauty and appeal in Orthodox Judaism and left Jesus for three years for it. So it is a real concern...
...if people, don't take responsibility for themselves and spiritual well-being. I was like the verse that was shared on Wags thread by Heynanei: They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. It is not the rabbis or Chaz"l who are leading anyone astray by their teachings. That was never their purpose. They didn't codify the Oral Torah or carry on a thousands years old tradition in order to destroy the faith and lead away from Jesus those Messianic believers in the 20th and 21st centuries. They spoke to and for traditional Jews of their time and the centuries to come. Certainly the g'dolim of today aren't trying to do that either. It is the individuals themselves that allow themselves to be drawn to it, just as I did.
The other side claims that there is value in learning the traditions of the past. That traditional Judaism has a lot to offer in the way of ethics, morals, parables, and practical Torah observance as a result of this thousands years old tradition. I can appreciate that as well because of my experience. I can't think of any one person or organization that places value in this and that puts these writings and traditions above what scripture states and what Jesus says. I have yet to see any sort of proof that these things are being elevated above what God has revealed to us. I think anyone on this forum would be quick to condemn anything or anyone who would take such a position. If there is anything in any of the traditional writings of Judaism or Christianity that negates or is elevated above God, Jesus, His Holy Spirit, His Word by any organization or person, they should be quickly corrected and condemned by anyone in the body of Christ, especially our little portion of that body.
One last thing before my proposal. I don't like the throwing around of p'sukim of the Gemara or any other rabbinic writing like one knows what they mean or the context in which they were used. Anyone can copy and paste a pasuk from a website. I could cut and paste p'sukim from the Gemara that counters the assertions that rabbinic writings are superior to scripture that were posted on another thread just as easily. That doesn't mean I necessarily know the entire context of verse. It does nothing to further anyone's cause. The same would go for any writings of the Church Fathers or the medieval reformers. There's a lot of garbage out there on the web that seeks to defame one group or another (whether it's the Jewish people or the Church Fathers or other Christians).
Anyhow, on to the proposal. I would like to ask that moderators prayerfully consider creating a subforum within the Messianic on CF that would specifically for the "Rabbinic vs. Non-Rabbinic" debate. I feel like this issue has cluttered up enough of the space and time of the main forum and should be set aside in its own forum. This would include things related to what the Talmud says or supposedly says, the merits or lack there of in partaking in traditional Jewish practice, the Divinity or lack there of of the Oral Torah, etc. Basically all the issues that we've seen over and over on SOOO many threads. I just don't feel like this issue is going to die at all and needs to be at least contained in a different section of our forum.
Anyways, those are my thoughts.
Michael