How Does the Holy Spirit Indwell?

[RefrusRevlis]

After studying the issue of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit some time ago, I came to the conclusion that the Holy Spirit indwells Christians through the word of God. By this I mean he dwells in our hearts and minds when the word of God does and does not dwell in us separately from the word. I'd be interested to hear what others believe on this and their reasons.

Refrus

[crawfish]

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by that. Are you implying that they Holy Spirit doesn't work in you in any way that's not specifically spoken of in the bible?

[RefrusRevlis]

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by that. Are you implying that they Holy Spirit doesn't work in you in any way that's not specifically spoken of in the bible?

I suppose I could put it this way: I have no doubt the Holy Spirit dwells in Christians, but how? Most people I have ever met (mainly denominational people) assumed the dwelling is as an entity separate and apart from the word of God, one almost might say a physical indwelling (if you can even use the term 'physical' of the Holy Spirit). I believe the Holy Spirit dwells and works in us via the agency of the word of God and speaks to us through it, much I suppose as how the Holy Spirit work in salvation.
Refrus

[WesWoodell]

If that were true, would that mean that the Christians living before the Bible was readily available didn't have the Holy Spirit?

Consider Romans 8 - Paul writes that the Christians in Rome in the first century were either controlled by the Spirit or the sinful nature - they didn't have printed Bibles - how could this be?

What about Acts 8 or Acts 19 - the apostles laid their hands on believers and the Spirit came upon them and manifested himself. This seems to be seperate and apart from the Word.

I do not believe that you simply read the Bible and came to the conclusion you've put forth. One has to make major jumps to believe the Holy Spirit indwells only through the Bible today, and those jumps were made a few decades ago by Church of Christ brethren who needed their doctrinal arguments to exist harmoniously.

In order for that to happen, they needed to make a few new doctrines up. The one you mention is one of them.

It came about as a reaction to denominational doctrines - not as a result of honest study of the Bible.

Be honest with yourself.

[RefrusRevlis]

Consider Romans 8 - Paul writes that the Christians in Rome in the first century were either controlled by the Spirit or the sinful nature - they didn't have printed Bibles - how could this be?

Romans 10:17 tells us that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. The Romans obviously heard the word of God, and so could have that word dwelling within them. This does not mean they had access to all that we have - ie the completed NT in printed form.

What about Acts 8 or Acts 19 - the apostles laid their hands on believers and the Spirit came upon them and manifested itself. This seems to be seperate and apart from the Word.

Yes certainly, the miraculous bestowal of Holy Spirit gift/s occurred in the first century, but even at that time it was not for all.
1 Corinthians 12:29-30
"All are not apostles are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles are they? All do not have giftsof healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues do they?... (NASB)

Also note that it was by the laying on of the apostles hands (Acts 8:18) that the Spirit was given. This is quite different from the indwelling of the Spirit for all Christians.

I believe the word of God is Spirit (John 6:63 ) and the Spirit dwells in our hearts 2 Corinthians 1:22 " who sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge."

How does this dwelling occur?

Eph 3 :17 Christ dwells in our hearts through FAITH, - is this literally (bodily?)
Galatians 4:6 "...God has sent the Spirit of his son into your hearts"

Col 3:16 the word of Christ dwells in us.

Refrus

[crawfish]

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God".

I don't think the holy spirit is the bible - the bible is a manifestation of the inspiration of the holy spirit through its authors, which presents the key information from God to establish His church. The holy spirit, however, also works directly within us, "inspiring" us to good works and deeds, when we let him in.

I really hope this makes sense.

The bible, inspired by the holy spirit, gives us enough information to know when we're being inspired by it to certain acts. For instance, I don't believe that the holy spirit would inspire you to anything contrary to His nature (the fruits of the spirit). Thus, nothing that is done without humility, with wrath, though unholy means can be inspired.

[WesWoodell]

I believe the Spirit dwells in us through Christ and our faith in Him.

If you consider Christ the Word (capital 'W'), then yes, the Spirit dwells in us through the Word.

But if you believe the Spirit dwells in us, or only works through the word (lowercase 'w' - i.e. the Bible), then I would have to disagree.

[RefrusRevlis]

I don't think the holy spirit is the bible - the bible is a manifestation of the inspiration of the holy spirit

I agree.

I believe, the Holy Spirit works through the Bible, but when we talk about the effect of the word in our lives we can credit the Holy Spirit. The word is living and active etc - Hebrews 4:12.

If you consider Christ the Word (capital 'W'), then yes, the Spirit dwells in us through the Word.

But if you believe the Spirit dwells in us, or only works through the word (lowercase 'w' - i.e. the Bible), then I would have to disagree.

Christ "The Word" dwells in our hearts through faith (Eph 3:17) this faith comes by "the word" of God (Romans 10:17).

Refrus

[annie1speed]

Wes,

I'm not sure I understand where you were going with this:

"I do not believe that you simply read the Bible and came to the conclusion you've put forth. One has to make major jumps to believe the Holy Spirit indwells only through the Bible today, and those jumps were made a few decades ago by Church of Christ brethren who needed their doctrinal arguments to exist harmoniously.

In order for that to happen, they needed to make a few new doctrines up. The one you mention is one of them.

It came about as a reaction to denominational doctrines - not as a result of honest study of the Bible.

Be honest with yourself."

Can you explain your point a little more? What doctrines do you believe were made up?

Thanks,

Annie

[Lpe04]

When you receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit (Acts chapter 2) you are indwelt permanetly (sealed - Eph. 4:30) but the Holy Spirit can be grieved (Eph. 4:30). Pray and ask God to fill you with the Spirit (Eph. 5:18).

[Loveaboveall]

I believe these verses may shed some light on the subject:

john 14:9-12 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou [then], Shew us the Father? Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.Believe me that I [am] in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Jesus was our example of how to live on this earth, right? He lived a righteous life, not be his own power, but by submitting His will fully so that the Father could work through Him. These verses do not say to me that this power from God is from reading His word and understanding it. These verses say to me that when we deny ourselves, God will empower us to live Godly lives as these verses suggest:

Romans 8:3,4 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Romans 2:13-15 For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and [their] thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.

The Jews had the word and the law, they knew what was right. But they did not do what was right because they did not have it written on their hearts. The Holy Spirit performs this work in each person who will allow Him to, a change in nature if you will.

How can the Bible be this power? The Bible provides the knowledge but that knowledge must be mixed with the power of God for a change to take place, this is by the "ruach" of God.

[Apollos1]

Romans 1:16 -
For I am not ashamed of the gospel: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

The gospel is God's power today to save. Do not underestimate the POWER of God. (cf. Hebrews 4:12).

[GoldSolThumpkin]

When you receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit (Acts chapter 2) you are indwelt permanetly (sealed - Eph. 4:30) but the Holy Spirit can be grieved (Eph. 4:30). Pray and ask God to fill you with the Spirit (Eph. 5:18).

This is what I was wanting to say while reading the previous posts. ty

I was taught (in elementary bible class) to believe that the bible is equal to the Holy Spirit. I believe this is a mistake brought about by the formal debates of the late 60s. This point of the Holy Spirit being equal to the bible gave the debaters a strong point of contention in many instances. It is simple and easy to defend, yet when taking the above quoted references into mind, one can see the other side of the argument as worthy of consideration.

I gave my faith completely to God and prayed for the greater gifts while "under the water" when I was 9 years old. The topic being discussed here was a serious one for me at the time. While age 12 I began to see flashes of the future. It was scarey at first. I have never been wrong and I have been right about 1,000 times. I do not consider prophesy to be a miracle, but I do believe that the Holy Spirit is more than only the bible.

[Clydson]

How do you know it is the Holy Spirit that has been giving you these, "flashes of the future"?

Jake

[Apollos1]

I don't know of much that the HS can do that the Word the HS revealed can not do also. (List available upon request...)

Miraculous manifestations are the only things I can think of - and these "went away" (1 Cor. 13:10) shortly after the HS revealed all of the Word. Miracles had served the purpose for which they had been given - to reveal and confirm God's word! (cf. Hebrews 2:2-4, Acts 14:3)

The baptism of Acts 2:38 was "in the name of Jesus Christ" and therefore IN water -and- was FOR the remission of sins. This baptism was not "HS baptism" - that is, not a baptism with the Holy Spirit.

The gospel is God's power to save today - Romans 1:16.

(PS - The "gift of" (or from) the HS in Acts 2:38-39 is the salvation received through water baptism, as revealed by the Holy Spirit"s work in revealing the Word.)

[Loveaboveall]

Miraculous manifestations are the only things I can think of - and these "went away" (1 Cor. 13:10) shortly after the HS revealed all of the Word. Miracles had served the purpose for which they had been given - to reveal and confirm God's word! (cf. Hebrews 2:2-4, Acts 14:3)

I am not sure I have ever followed this line of thinking... Has knowledge vanished away? Are there still many different languages in the world that would require interpreters? The point of these verses, IMO, is not to say that prophecy ended in the time of the apostles but that Love will never fail/end/vanish away. There will come a time when we will all speak the same language and have no further need for Prophecy, but that time is not yet for Jesus has not returned.

The baptism of Acts 2:38 was "in the name of Jesus Christ" and therefore IN water -and- was FOR the remission of sins. This baptism was not "HS baptism" - that is, not a baptism with the Holy Spirit.

Is this what the bible teaches?

Matt 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire:

Mark 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost

Jesus baptism was different than the baptism of water


Mark 1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

John's baptism was by water for the remission of sins


Acts 19:1-6 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.When they heard [this], they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.And when Paul had laid [his] hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.


Here, this experience is described as these men who have been baptized with water for the remission of sins. They had not heard of anything about the Holy Spirit. When Paul explained this to them, he LAID hands on them and they recieved the baptism of the Holy Spirit which came from Jesus. Please correct me if I have misread these texs.


The gospel is God's power to save today - Romans 1:16. Is there a difference between "saving" and "changing"?
What is the gospel? John 3:16... It is God's unmerited grace and love towards us. It by itself has the power to SAVE us if we believe on Jesus. When we are baptized we are saved AND changed. We become a new creature, we become spiritual instead of carnal all through the working of the Holy Spirit. This is the manifestation of our salvation experience. The Holy Spirit plays a part in BOTH. He pricks our hearts and leads us to the understanding of our need for a savior, and then when we empty ourselves of selfishness the HS fills us with Christs nature which did good works. We can do no good works of ourselves, only with the power bestowed to us by the HS. Romans 7 speaks of this... esp vs 18

"For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but [how] to perform that which is good I find not."

That is why we need the power of the Holy Spirit in our lives working in us to do the good pleasure of God. We cannot do it on knowledge alone!




Matt 8:28-29 And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way. And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?

James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

KNOWLEDGE can demonstrate to us the Love of God and draw us to Him, but we must accept. KNOWLEDGE alone does not save. There is a difference from believing "in" Jesus and believing "of" Jesus... Even the devils believe "of" Jesus as the Son of God. The Bible gives us the knowledge of the Gospel. The Holy Spirit not only pricks our hearts of who Jesus is but empowers us to be like Jesus when we have accepted His free gift.

Does God say: "I have saved you, now, go and live a life as I have told you to in the Bible." without empowering us to be able to do this. The bible is clear that we are changed, this change does not occur by understanding what the bible says but by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in our minds and hearts.

[annie1speed]

What does vanish away then? in your opinion. :)

[Loveaboveall]

Prophecy, tongues, knowledge... What Paul is saying is that they all have a purpose and when all things are fulfilled and we are with Jesus we will have no need for some gifts, but until that time we need all the help we can get to witness to people.

The point is not that they do not end but that they haven't necessarily ended yet.

[annie1speed]

When do prophecy and tongues vanish away? When that which is perfect is come. Has that which is perfect come? I guess I should ask what is 'that which is perfect?'

Annie

[annie1speed]

Hmmmm. Let me help you. Is the Holy Spirit perfect?

[Loveaboveall]

1 cor 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Did Paul not have the Gift of apostleship from the Holy Spirit. If the Holy Spirit is what is spoken of as being perfect that is to come, than why was there still all the miraculous gifts still being manifested. These gifts could not have been given WITHOUT the Holy Spirit.

What Paul is saying is that there will be a time when we will see Jesus face to face. There are many things he still does not understand, but there will be a day when everything will be clear standing face to face to Jesus our savior. Until that day, we are looking through a dim glass and we are in need of the gifts of the spirit.

[annie1speed]

Had to do my paying job for a while..... So what is the that which is perfect? :)

[annie1speed]

Waiting .....

[Loveaboveall]

When the kingdom of God is perfect! It is not perfect as of yet because there is still sin. When sin is destroyed forever, then will things be perfect and we will then have the glass removed.

[GoldSolThumpkin]

How do you know it is the Holy Spirit that has been giving you these, "flashes of the future"?

Jake
It took some time, but I see that question in the bible in the form of you will know them by their works. The "Flashes" became "movies through my eyes." Those movies were true in every detail. Maybe they are visions or prophesy. Either way they are/were always correct. I lived that scene in exact detail. As to where they come from? I only asked God.

Had to do my paying job for a while..... So what is the that which is perfect?
The word translated 'Perfect' in the original Koine' Greek would more precisely be translated 'Complete' in today's English language.

Perfect is open to individual perspective. What is perfect to some people is not perfect to others. This is not the reason for my previous statement of the translation of the word. Just an additional FYI.

[Clydson]

[font=Verdana][size=3][color=Purple]It took some time, but I see that question in the bible in the form of you will know them by their works. The "Flashes" became "movies through my eyes." Those movies were true in every detail. Maybe they are visions or prophesy. Either way they are/were always correct. I lived that scene in exact detail. As to where they come from? I only asked God.



Then it is your opinion that God answered your prayer by giving you this gift?

How do you know the answer did not come from Satan clothed as an angel of light? Wouldn't it seem to be from the same source? Especially in view of instances of Bible examples, Acts 16:16-17.

Jake

[cremi]

Then it is your opinion that God answered your prayer by giving you this gift?

How do you know the answer did not come from Satan clothed as an angel of light? Wouldn't it seem to be from the same source? Especially in view of instances of Bible examples, Acts 16:16-17.

JakeHow do you know that it isn't from God?

I have also had some strange visions and dreams. Very strange too, when the vison or dream came to be true at a later point. No, I do not think it was Satan. In my case, I had not even asked for the vision or dream, but I am positive it was from God. Why? Because I make it a habit to ask for God's protection while I sleep. I make it a habit to ask him to keep Satan from my unconscious thoughts while I sleep...(there's another story and reason behind that, but it doesn't pertain to this thread)

I strongly believe God gifts us as he wills. We are to desire the gifts--that never ended.
1 Corinthians 14:1
1 Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.

[Clydson]

How do you know that it isn't from God?

I have also had some strange visions and dreams. Very strange too, when the vison or dream came to be true at a later point. No, I do not think it was Satan. In my case, I had not even asked for the vision or dream, but I am positive it was from God. Why? Because I make it a habit to ask for God's protection while I sleep. I make it a habit to ask him to keep Satan from my unconscious thoughts while I sleep...(there's another story and reason behind that, but it doesn't pertain to this thread)

I strongly believe God gifts us as he wills. We are to desire the gifts--that never ended.
1 Corinthians 14:1
1 Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.


First, I've not said it wasn't from God. Is it your contention that I have no alternative but to believe your claims? Are you offended when someone asks for you to produce proof that God is with you and working signs through you? Doesn't scripture advise us to test the spirits to see if they are from God?

You see, I'm not saying you are a liar, but rather trying to give you opportunity to prove your claims. If you don't want to, of course, you don't have to. But to expect me to take you at your word is something that even Jesus did not expect of men in his generation, John 10:25 and 38.

There is a lot more to this, in regard to understanding that even Satan can deceive by presenting himself as an angel of light. So there should be more evidential proof than merely giving one's word. Scripture tells us not to accept anyone at his word alone. To begin with, there must be 2 or 3 witnesses.

Jake

[Loveaboveall]

All gifts of the spirit are given for 2 reasons:

Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

All gifts of the spirit must meet this criteria. Granted, we can use our gifts the way we want and God can take them away, also. But if you can use these visions for the above reasons then glory to God, if you can't then you may want to look deeper at what they really are.

[cremi]

First, I've not said it wasn't from God. Is it your contention that I have no alternative but to believe your claims?No...not at all. You are wise to not believe everything that you see written here. However, becasue you do or do not believe it to be true does not make it so.

What I often see in reverse, is the idea that "things like this" can't possibly be true because some believe the gifts have ceased to exist. Are you offended when someone asks for you to produce proof that God is with you and working signs through you? I'm not offended in any way. I also don't know how to "prove" to you that this has happened, anymore than I can prove that God exists and that my faith is real. Especially on an internet forum. I was simply addressing the idea that just because you don't believe it, does not mean it can't be from God. It doens't always have to be demonic in nature, just because it's different. Doesn't scripture advise us to test the spirits to see if they are from God? Most definitely. (1 John 4:1-3)


You see, I'm not saying you are a liar, but rather trying to give you opportunity to prove your claims. If you don't want to, of course, you don't have to. But to expect me to take you at your word is something that even Jesus did not expect of men in his generation, John 10:25 and 38.I'm willing, but don't know exactly how to prove this to you, especially in this medium. I could tell you when I had a dream, and what happened afterwards, but would you believe that? That would probably not be "proof" to you, so how do you want me to "prove" this?

There is a lot more to this, in regard to understanding that even Satan can deceive by presenting himself as an angel of light. So there should be more evidential proof than merely giving one's word. Scripture tells us not to accept anyone at his word alone. To begin with, there must be 2 or 3 witnesses.

Again, I have no issue with you "not believing" me---you don't know me and you don't know anything about me, other than what little info you may have read on this forum. I also agree with you that Satan is the Master Deciever. However, I believe that if we keep our eyes focused on God and ask him to block Satan's power, God can do that. That makes knowing the truth much easier.

It's more about knowing it's God's voice that is calling you, speaking to you, etc...rather than worrying about if Satan is deceiving you again.
John 10:27 (NASB)
"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;

Does this better explain what I was trying to say? Please let me know if I'm still sound muddled.

[cremi]

All gifts of the spirit must meet this criteria. Granted, we can use our gifts the way we want and God can take them away, also. But if you can use these visions for the above reasons then glory to God, if you can't then you may want to look deeper at what they really are.Good thoughts here and I agree.:thumbsup:

[Apollos1]

Hello loveaboveall –

Previously I said - Miraculous manifestations are the only things I can think of [that the HS can do that God’s word can not] - and these "went away" (1 Cor. 13:10) shortly after the HS revealed all of the Word. Miracles had served the purpose for which they had been given - to reveal and confirm God's word! (cf. Hebrews 2:2-4, Acts 14:3)

You followed with - I am not sure I have ever followed this line of thinking... Has knowledge vanished away?

Supernatural knowledge had passed away – yes. I believe this to be the context of the chapter. In chapter 12 of 1 Corinthians Paul tells us what the spiritual gifts are – chapter 13 tells us how long they will last, and chapter 14 give the “How to use…” section on spiritual gifts (SGs).

>>>Are there still many different languages in the world that would require interpreters? The point of these verses, IMO, is not to say that prophecy ended in the time of the apostles but that Love will never fail/end/vanish away.

Paul clearly states that love will never cease. Paul also clearly states that prophesy, tongues, and knowledge will cease – then Paul tells us when they will cease.

You offered - There will come a time when we will all speak the same language and have no further need for Prophecy, but that time is not yet for Jesus has not returned.

I don’t believe this passage (1 Corinthians 13) offers insight to all speaking the same language someday. And I believe that God’s Word is all sufficient for us today and we have no need of any more prophesy – God has already supplied all we need in the Word.

Paul is discussing KNOWLEDGE and PROPHESY in verse 8 and 9 and then contrasts this temporary and partial knowledge with that which is coming – a “complete” knowledge. When this complete knowledge comes, the temporary and partial knowledge will pass. This accurately describes the revelatory process of supernatural knowledge and prophesy against the coming of God’s complete (totally revealed) will/word.

To say that this could be referring to the “coming” of the Lord is a thought that can not be substantiated by anything in the passage – immediate or remote.

I then offered… The baptism of Acts 2:38 was "in the name of Jesus Christ" and therefore IN water -and- was FOR the remission of sins. This baptism was not "HS baptism" - that is, not a baptism with the Holy Spirit.

You asked - Is this what the bible teaches?

First let me answer – yes!

In Matthew 28:18-20 after being given all authority in heaven and earth, Jesus authorized HIS baptism for all nations – into the name of the Father/Son/HS. This baptism by the authority of Christ was never heard of before this time.

In Acts 10:47-48 we read –Can any man forbid the water, that these should not be baptized,
who have received the Holy Spirit as well as we?
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

Baptism “in the name of Jesus Christ” is baptism in WATER. Compare Acts 2:38 with Acts 10:47-48. This is baptism in water. Now to your passages…

Matt 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire:

I don’t deny that Jesus sent the HS and there were those baptized with the HS. But HS baptism was the result of promise (to only the Twelve – John 14:16-17, cf. 16:13) and prophecy (to the Gentiles – Acts 2:16-17). The only 2 occurrences took place in Acts 2 – the Apostles only, and in Acts 10 – Cornelius and household only.

Matthew 3:11 is not a “shot gun” type of promise to baptize everyone with the HS.

Mark 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.

Again, I believe HS baptism took place – but it was not for everyone.

>>>Jesus baptism was different than the baptism of water - See Acts 2:38 with Acts 10:47 above.

Mark 1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
>>>John's baptism was by water for the remission of sins…

With the death of Christ not having taken place at this time, HOW was forgiveness of sins possible? Answer: It wasn’t!

Luke 3:3 possibly renders this the plainest... “And he came into all the region round about the Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance unto remission of sins…”

John was sent by God to get the people ready for the coming Messiah. John’s baptism was a baptism of repentancethat look forward (“unto”) to the coming Messiah.

Other supporting scriptures are:

Luke 24:47 – “…repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name unto all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.”

Acts 19:4 –Paul said - “John baptized with a baptism of repentance…”

And in all kindness you have misread this passage. These 12 Ephesians had received only John’s baptism – which is for repentance – verse 4.
Then Paul baptizes these 12 “in the name of Jesus Christ…” which as shown above is in WATER – verse 5.
Then Paul “laid hands” on the 12 Ephesians that they receive the HS – verse 6 – which was not HS baptism. By comparing this event with what happened in Acts 8 at Samaria, we know that believers were baptized “in the name of Christ” Acts 8:16 and waited for Apostles to come “lay hands” on some that had believed and were baptized in water. Philip could not do this – he called for the Apostles to do this!

It was Simon that observed in Acts 8:18 - “…Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Spirit was given…”

While this was a giving of the HS by laying on of hands, it was not what we read about and witness form Acts 2 and Acts 10. And this could only be done by the4 Apostles – which includes Paul. AFTER the Apostles passed so did this ability.

>>> Is there a difference between "saving" and "changing"?
I regret I do not understand this question. Is there?

>>>What is the gospel? John 3:16... It is God's unmerited grace and love towards us.

The gospel is the “good news” that the salvation that God promised to man and planned from before the foundation of the world had finally come to man – salvation is now possible! That good news is found within the confines of God’s Word which the HS revealed to man and had man write down. When that Word is in our minds and our hearts we have the “power” of God - His knowledge to that which He would have us do. This “power” is life changing! The end result is our salvation. God, Jesus, and the HS have done Their parts. Man now needs to do his part to be saved. If man doesn’t know the Word he can not live it. God says His WORD is enough – Romans 1:16, 2 Peter 1:3, 2 Timothy 3:16.

This is enough to “make” man do what he needs to in the sight of God. And doing what God says in His WORD is how we KNOW that we are saved and living correctly in His sight. There need be no doubt.

[GoldSolThumpkin]

The Holy Spirit is active. Satan is active as well. To know which one is pitching at any given point in time, one should test the results using the bible as the rulebook. If it seems to contradict any part of the whole of the bible, then its from Satan.
Whether the Holy Spirit being the word only in me or the Holy Spirit making the word complete in me as a catalyst of some kind; I do not care. I am glad that there is something greater than myself working good through me(.)
I do know that it makes no sense whatsoever to say "You just grieved that book.":confused:

[Loveaboveall]

Hello loveaboveall –

Previously I said - Miraculous manifestations are the only things I can think of [that the HS can do that God’s word can not] - and these "went away" (1 Cor. 13:10) shortly after the HS revealed all of the Word. Miracles had served the purpose for which they had been given - to reveal and confirm God's word! (cf. Hebrews 2:2-4, Acts 14:3)

All gifts of the spirit were intended to edify the church and prepare the saints to spread the good news. Why would these not still be needed today? I just follow how you can take a verse as 1 cor 13:10, which in context was not meant to give us a timeline of when miraculous gifts were to vanish away, and use it to say that there is no further need for the Holy Spirit to work miraculously. If anything we need miraculous gifts more today than in the time of the early church. The whole point of the gospel is JESUS! He performed many miracles while here that was more than enough to convince an open heart of who He was. Today we do not have the ability to speak to someone who witnessed this.


Supernatural knowledge had passed away – yes. I believe this to be the context of the chapter. In chapter 12 of 1 Corinthians Paul tells us what the spiritual gifts are – chapter 13 tells us how long they will last, and chapter 14 give the “How to use…” section on spiritual gifts (SGs).

I am sorry I just don't understand how you can look at ! corinthians 13 and say the point of the chapter is to explain when miracles would end.

Paul clearly states that love will never cease. Paul also clearly states that prophesy, tongues, and knowledge will cease – then Paul tells us when they will cease.

If it is not at the coming of our Lord than when is perfection attained?

I don’t believe this passage (1 Corinthians 13) offers insight to all speaking the same language someday. And I believe that God’s Word is all sufficient for us today and we have no need of any more prophesy – God has already supplied all we need in the Word.

So are you saying that we have more discernment than the disciples?

John 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

We are not in need of the Holy Spirit to guide us in interpreting the scriptures?

Paul is discussing KNOWLEDGE and PROPHESY in verse 8 and 9 and then contrasts this temporary and partial knowledge with t
hat which is coming – a “complete” knowledge. When this complete knowledge comes, the temporary and partial knowledge will pass. This accurately describes the revelatory process of supernatural knowledge and prophesy against the coming of God’s complete (totally revealed) will/word.

Are you saying that we now have "complete" knowledge because the Bible is complete? What about those who have read the bible but still do not "understand"?

To say that this could be referring to the “coming” of the Lord is a thought that can not be substantiated by anything in the passage – immediate or remote.

Please tell me what it is thatwill be perfect, and what is meant by "face to face"? The Bible may be perfect in its content but do you perfectly understand it? I don't think anyone can make this claim. When will you perfectly understand it?

I then offered… The baptism of Acts 2:38 was "in the name of Jesus Christ" and therefore IN water -and- was FOR the remission of sins. This baptism was not "HS baptism" - that is, not a baptism with the Holy Spirit.

The baptism of the Holy Spirit results from a full humbling of yourself to God. (i.e. tongues of fire when the disciples were all in one accord completely submitted to God) This humbling usually results in baptism for the remission of sins because that is what God has required us to do.

In Matthew 28:18-20 after being given all authority in heaven and earth, Jesus authorized HIS baptism for all nations – into the name of the Father/Son/HS. This baptism by the authority of Christ was never heard of before this time.

In Acts 10:47-48 we read –Can any man forbid the water, that these should not be baptized,
who have received the Holy Spirit as well as we?
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ

Under whose authority was John baptizing?
Matt 21:25 The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men? And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say unto us, Why did ye not then believe him?

Baptism “in the name of Jesus Christ” is baptism in WATER. Compare Acts 2:38 with Acts 10:47-48. This is baptism in water. Now to your passages…

Matt 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire:

I don’t deny that Jesus sent the HS and there were those baptized with the HS. But HS baptism was the result of promise (to only the Twelve – John 14:16-17, cf. 16:13) and prophecy (to the Gentiles – Acts 2:16-17). The only 2 occurrences took place in Acts 2 – the Apostles only, and in Acts 10 – Cornelius and household only.

The baptism of John was for the remission of sins, the baptism of Jesus was for a change in "nature" this occured through the indwelling of the H.S. I do not believe that there is any difference b/w the baptism of John and the baptism of Jesus except for the fact that Cornelius had never heard or understood what the Holy Spirit was so it had not been manifested to him. There was no need for another immersion baptism for they had already been baptized for the remission of sins. What they needed was a special prayer for the Holy Spirit to be bestowed on them. There is nothing to suggest they were immersed in water again from these verses.

Matthew 3:11 is not a “shot gun” type of promise to baptize everyone with the HS.

Who is John speaking to here? It is not to the 12 disciples, for they had not come yet with Jesus. He spoke these words to the people who he was baptizing! How can this not be for anyone who accepts Jesus?

'[]Mark 1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
>>>John's baptism was by water for the remission of sins…

With the death of Christ not having taken place at this time, HOW was forgiveness of sins possible? Answer: It wasn’t!

Are you suggesting that people could not be forgiven of their sins until Jesus died?! If this is true then how can any of the patriarchs be a part of the resurrection? Did Jesus lie when he told the adulteress woman or the blind man "your sins are forgiven"?

Luke 3:3 possibly renders this the plainest... “And he came into all the region round about the Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance unto remission of sins…”

John was sent by God to get the people ready for the coming Messiah. John’s baptism was a baptism of repentancethat look forward (“unto”) to the coming Messiah.

Other supporting scriptures are:

Luke 24:47 – “…repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name unto all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.”

Acts 19:4 –Paul said - “John baptized with a baptism of repentance…”

I have to object to your interpretation here. The word "unto" clearly means that the baptism lead to the forgiveness of their sins. This, IMO, is reading into a passage what you want it to say instead of understanding the passage for what it means.

To suggest Luke meant to say that forgiveness of sins did not occur until the cross is also very misleading. The verse is intended to mean the "preaching" was to begin in Jerusalem not the forgiveness.

And in all kindness you have misread this passage. These 12 Ephesians had received only John’s baptism – which is for repentance – verse 4.
Then Paul baptizes these 12 “in the name of Jesus Christ…” which as shown above is in WATER – verse 5.
Then Paul “laid hands” on the 12 Ephesians that they receive the HS – verse 6 – which was not HS baptism. By comparing this event with what happened in Acts 8 at Samaria, we know that believers were baptized “in the name of Christ” Acts 8:16 and waited for Apostles to come “lay hands” on some that had believed and were baptized in water. Philip could not do this – he called for the Apostles to do this!

It was Simon that observed in Acts 8:18 - “…Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Spirit was given…”

Acts 19:5-6 When they heard [this], they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid [his] hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

The act here could be viewed either way... That Paul immeresed them in water and then layed hands on them or... Paul layed hands on them annointing them in the name of Jesus Christ and when He did this the Holy Ghost came upon them.


While this was a giving of the HS by laying on of hands, it was not what we read about and witness form Acts 2 and Acts 10. And this could only be done by the4 Apostles – which includes Paul. AFTER the Apostles passed so did this ability.

God can only work through His apostles and when they die so does God's ability to bestow the Holy Ghost? For some reason this just doesn't sound right

>>> Is there a difference between "saving" and "changing"?
I regret I do not understand this question. Is there?

>>>What is the gospel? John 3:16... It is God's unmerited grace and love towards us.

The gospel is the “good news” that the salvation that God promised to man and planned from before the foundation of the world had finally come to man – salvation is now possible! That good news is found within the confines of God’s Word which the HS revealed to man and had man write down. When that Word is in our minds and our hearts we have the “power” of God - His knowledge to that which He would have us do. This “power” is life changing! The end result is our salvation. God, Jesus, and the HS have done Their parts. Man now needs to do his part to be saved. If man doesn’t know the Word he can not live it. God says His WORD is enough – Romans 1:16, 2 Peter 1:3, 2 Timothy 3:16.

This is enough to “make” man do what he needs to in the sight of God. And doing what God says in His WORD is how we KNOW that we are saved and living correctly in His sight. There need be no doubt.


A man is saved by Jesus covering Him with His righteousness. A man is changed when what is covered becomes like Christ. This is the work of the Holy Spirit. When we are justified are sins are covered. When we are sanctified we become holy as Christ is holy. This cannot happen without supernatural power from the Holy spirit.

[Clydson]

All gifts of the spirit are given for 2 reasons:

Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

All gifts of the spirit must meet this criteria. Granted, we can use our gifts the way we want and God can take them away, also. But if you can use these visions for the above reasons then glory to God, if you can't then you may want to look deeper at what they really are.

Greetings Loveaboveall,

I agree with the thought that the Holy Spirit gave gifts for divine reasons. However, I believe there are more than 2 reasons. I agree that these gifts were for the edification of the church, and to confirm the word of God. There is another reason God gave gifts; as a sign;

Acts 11:15-18
15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, as upon us at the beginning.
16 Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, 'John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.'
17 If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?"
18 When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying,"Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life."
NKJV

The gift of speaking in tongues given to Cornelius, in my opinion, is seen by the Jerusalem church as a sign from God to harvest the Gentile nations.

Jake

[Loveaboveall]

Greetings Loveaboveall,

I agree with the thought that the Holy Spirit gave gifts for divine reasons. However, I believe there are more than 2 reasons. I agree that these gifts were for the edification of the church, and to confirm the word of God. There is another reason God gave gifts; as a sign;

Acts 11:15-18
15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, as upon us at the beginning.
16 Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, 'John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.'
17 If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?"
18 When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying,"Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life."
NKJV

The gift of speaking in tongues given to Cornelius, in my opinion, is seen by the Jerusalem church as a sign from God to harvest the Gentile nations.

Jake

I don't disagree with that at all. You could view that as part of the edification of the church, at the very least it is in harmony with Eph 4:12. The point being that gifts of the spirit are for the blessing of others to the glorification of God, not for personal use or blessing.

[Clydson]

The point being that gifts of the spirit are for the blessing of others to the glorification of God, not for personal use or blessing.

Excellent point!

[Apollos1]

loveaboveall –

I must admit my mild irritation that you chose to overlook the substance of many of my prior points and ignore many questions as well. Because of that I have had to repeat many questions and points. Please be more attentive to answering. Your mere assertion of your view will not suffice in this thread.

>>>YOU said - All gifts of the spirit were intended to edify the church and prepare the saints to spread the good news. Why would these not still be needed today?

We have God’s complete word today…

>>>I just follow how you can take a verse as 1 cor 13:10, which in context was not meant to give us a timeline of when miraculous gifts were to vanish away, and use it to say that there is no further need for the Holy Spirit to work miraculously.

Please see my exegesis in the “When that which is perfect is come…” thread. This will answer my position on many of the questions you have asked in your post above. We can continue there with our discussion as well if you desire. Thankx!

>>> If anything we need miraculous gifts more today than in the time of the early church.
See Romans 1:16…

>>>So are you saying that we have more discernment than the disciples? …and…
We are not in need of the Holy Spirit to guide us in interpreting the scriptures?

Read Ephesians 3:4 – this is what we have today when we READ… all that we NEED. You are seeking that which you WANT.

>>>John 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Did the HS not guide them into ALL truth? – John 16:23.

>>> Are you saying that we now have "complete" knowledge because the Bible is complete? What about those who have read the bible but still do not "understand"?

In matters of living properly before God so that we can be approved before Him – yes! 1 Peter 1:3 – through the KNOWLEDGE of Jesus Christ. We have all we NEED to know – not all that we may WANT to know.

I offered in my last post to you - The baptism of Acts 2:38 was "in the name of Jesus Christ" and therefore IN water -and- was FOR the remission of sins. This baptism was not "HS baptism" - that is, not a baptism with the Holy Spirit.

>>>The baptism of the Holy Spirit results from a full humbling of yourself to God. (i.e. tongues of fire when the disciples were all in one accord completely submitted to God) This humbling usually results in baptism for the remission of sins because that is what God has required us to do.

TWO major problems here:
1.) You will not be able to offer one scripture that shows “humbling” is the catalyst for HS baptism to happen.
2.) HS baptsim was NEVER for remission of sins – and you have NO scripture for this either.

>>>Under whose authority was John baptizing?

John had divine authority to baptize with a baptism of repentance.
John died. Later Christ was given ALL authority and He commanded His baptism.

>>>The baptism of John was for the remission of sins…
Not according to Paul – Acts 19:4.
Not according to Luke 3:3, 24:47.
HOW was remission of sins possible BEFORE the cross??

I will point out that you answered NONE of these points which are all from my last post to you!

>>>the baptism of Jesus was for a change in "nature" this occured through the indwelling of the H.S.
You did not give me a scrpture for this. Do you have one???

>>>I do not believe that there is any difference b/w the baptism of John and the baptism of Jesus except for the fact that Cornelius had never heard or understood what the Holy Spirit was so it had not been manifested to him.

You need to answer the above points!
You need to produce the scripture(s) that you think support this!

>>>What they needed was a special prayer for the Holy Spirit to be bestowed on them.

“Special prayer”??? Do you read of any prayer in Acts 10??? Where is it??? Where does this idea come from???

>>>There is nothing to suggest they were immersed in water again from these verses.

Acts 10:47 – “Can any man forbid WATER…” Are you serious about this???

>>>Who is John speaking to here [Matt. 3:11] ? It is not to the 12 disciples, for they had not come yet with Jesus. He spoke these words to the people who he was baptizing!

John was speaking to the Jews. No specific person(s) is addressed. John is telling them that Christ is going to baptize (at some time) with the HS. No time & no persons are addressed specifically other than the Jews.

Jesus DOES address who was to receive HS baptism – John 14:16, 16:13, Luke 24:49, Acts 1:5,8.
The TWELVE were the only one promised HS baptism by Christ.
In fulfillment of Joel 2/Acts 2:17 Cornelius and household also received HS baptism.

>>>How can this not be for anyone who accepts Jesus?
Quite simple – HS baptism was not promised to anyone else.

>>>Are you suggesting that people could not be forgiven of their sins until Jesus died?!
I am plainly stating it! Tell me HOW such was possible BEFORE the cross???
You certainly did not answer my questions did you?

>>>If this is true then how can any of the patriarchs be a part of the resurrection?

See Romans 3:25…

>>>Did Jesus lie when he told the adulteress woman or the blind man "your sins are forgiven"?

You err not knowing the scriptures. Jesus had authority on earth to forgive sins – Matthew 9:6. You and I will NOT be forgiven in this manner because Jesus no longer “walks” on the earth!

>>>I have to object to your interpretation here[Luke 3:3]. The word "unto" clearly means that the baptism lead to the forgiveness of their sins.

Really? How so??? Please harmonize this with Acts 19:4 – okay?

>>>To suggest Luke meant to say that forgiveness of sins did not occur until the cross is also very misleading. The verse [Luke 24:47] is intended to mean the "preaching" was to begin in Jerusalem not the forgiveness.

This means the “preaching”??? Aren’t YOU saying that John the baptizer was already doing this ???????? So how do you explain you point on Luke 24:47????
Please be consistent! Luke said that Jesus said repentance and remission of sins would BEGIN in Jerusalem.

>>>The act here [Acts 19:1-6] could be viewed either way...
No – it can’t!
>>That Paul immeresed them in water and then layed hands on them or... Paul layed hands on them annointing them in the name of Jesus Christ and when He did this the Holy Ghost came upon them.
“Annointing” them???? Where did that come from???????

>>>God can only work through His apostles and when they die so does God's ability to bestow the Holy Ghost? For some reason this just doesn't sound right

That is what the scriptures show. Do you have something else? Please share it!

[annie1speed]

Apollos,

Lots of good points in your post. BUT ... John's baptism - what was it for? This question has rolled around my mind for 30+ years. I thought it was for remission of sins.

John 3:3 really beginning in 3:2:

Annas and Caiaphas being the high priests, the word of God came unto John the son of Zacharias in the wilderness.
And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

[Loveaboveall]

Apollos all I ask is that when people hear of something that is different then there beliefs that they hear with a listening heart and not a predetermined heart

loveaboveall –
I must admit my mild irritation that you chose to overlook the substance of many of my prior points and ignore many questions as well. Because of that I have had to repeat many questions and points. Please be more attentive to answering. Your mere assertion of your view will not suffice in this thread.

I do not intend to "irritate" anyone. I just present what I have studied to be the "Bible and the Bible alone"

[qutoe]>>>YOU said - All gifts of the spirit were intended to edify the church and prepare the saints to spread the good news. Why would these not still be needed today?

We have God’s complete word today…[/quote]

That still does not answer the question. When Peter preached at pentecost, without the pricking of the Holy Spirit there would not have been a conversion! Miraculous gifts were not to complete the NT they were to "edify the church" and "prepare the saints for ministry" Paul makes it clear in Ephesians that prophecy is just as valid as teaching in doing this and for that matter any of the gifts of the spirit. He also gives specific guidelines as to when these gifts will be needed and these have not been fulfilled yet. Ephesians 4 in your interpretation does not harmonize with 1 Cor 13. It is not the completion of the NT that is what is spoken of in Ephesians 4!

Please see my exegesis in the “When that which is perfect is come…” thread. This will answer my position on many of the questions you have asked in your post above. We can continue there with our discussion as well if you desire. Thankx!

I will take a look at it, Thanks!

>>> If anything we need miraculous gifts more today than in the time of the early church.
See Romans 1:16…

If your understanding is correct then the early church would not have needed the Holy Spirit either!

>>>So are you saying that we have more discernment than the disciples? …and…
We are not in need of the Holy Spirit to guide us in interpreting the scriptures?

Read Ephesians 3:4 – this is what we have today when we READ… all that we NEED. You are seeking that which you WANT.

The gentiles had NO knowledge of a coming savior b/c the Jews failed in the plan God had for them to be a "light to the world" because of this failure they had not been given the truth of grace and salvation through faith in Jesus. This knowledge is contained in the writings of the OT, the Jews failed to share this information and kept it to themselves. Granted we have many insights from Paul, Peter, John, and the other writers, but that does not negate the fact that they interpreted the gospel in light of what was written in the OT.

>>>John 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Did the HS not guide them into ALL truth? – John 16:23.

I am sorry I am not following, How does John 16:23 relate to this discussion?

>>> Are you saying that we now have "complete" knowledge because the Bible is complete? What about those who have read the bible but still do not "understand"?

In matters of living properly before God so that we can be approved before Him – yes! 1 Peter 1:3 – through the KNOWLEDGE of Jesus Christ. We have all we NEED to know – not all that we may WANT to know.

I must reject your assertion that by living properly we can be approved before God. It is only by faith through grace that we are viewed as righteous before God, not by any proper living! We live properly because we are given righteousness through Jesus out of pure worship to God.

I offered in my last post to you - The baptism of Acts 2:38 was "in the name of Jesus Christ" and therefore IN water -and- was FOR the remission of sins. This baptism was not "HS baptism" - that is, not a baptism with the Holy Spirit.


The baptism of the Holy Spirit results from a full humbling of yourself to God. (i.e. tongues of fire when the disciples were all in one accord completely submitted to God) This humbling usually results in baptism for the remission of sins because that is what God has required us to do.

TWO major problems here:
1.) You will not be able to offer one scripture that shows “humbling” is the catalyst for HS baptism to happen.
2.) HS baptsim was NEVER for remission of sins – and you have NO scripture for this either.

Jesus ministry on this earth was all about humility!

Acts 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

Acts 1:14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.

By fully humbling themselves in prayer and supplication before God in that upper room God bestowed on them cloven tongues of fire which was the bapism of the Holy Spirit.

For further evidence lets go back to.... the OT!

Why were the Levites chosen to be the Priests? The firstborn were originally sanctified by God. Ex 13:2 but... then there was the uprising and worshipping of the golden calf. Ex 32:19:20... God then made a call and asked who was on His side. All the sons of the tribe of Levi came forth. Vs 26... Thus God chose them to be the Priests instead of the whole of Israel. He had intended Israel to be the Priests for the world (See EX 19) The Levites were anointed by God to do this Holy Work because they humbled themselves before God.

Note Numbers 8:6-11 The ceremony to annoint the Levites as set apart to God is VERY similar to what the apostles did in the NT. The Levites were washed and cleansed (Baptism) and then hands were layed on them to annoint them before God. Very interesting isn't it?

Leviticus 8 also sheds some light on this subject

8:6 Washed with water--Note (Titus 3:5)
8:7 Clothed with Priestly clothing--(Note Ps 132:9)
8:12 and Ex 29:7 Anointed with oil--(Note parable of the 10 virgins) Oil represents the Holy Spirit.

Just some more points for you to ponder with a listeningn heart. There is so much to be learned from the OT if only people would study and ask the Holy Spirit to teach them.


>>>Under whose authority was John baptizing?

John had divine authority to baptize with a baptism of repentance.
John died. Later Christ was given ALL authority and He commanded His baptism.

As annie pointed out:thumbsup: I believe she meant LUKE Luk 3:2,3 and Mark 1:4

"John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins."

>>>The baptism of John was for the remission of sins…
Not according to Paul – Acts 19:4.
Not according to Luke 3:3, 24:47.
HOW was remission of sins possible BEFORE the cross??

So, are you saying Mark was wrong or Luke writing the book of Acts and the Gospel of Luke?

Or

Will you accept that just maybe your interpretation is not quite right?

I will point out that you answered NONE of these points which are all from my last post to you!

I am sorry if I have not answered to your satisfaction. Have I done any better?

the baptism of Jesus was for a change in "nature" this occured through the indwelling of the H.S.
You did not give me a scrpture for this. Do you have one???

Okay, I will try to spell it out for you. 2 Corinthians 5:17, Romans 6:1-12, Galatians 2:20 We are baptized into Christ-- We are cleansed and we then are raised INTO Christ (See John 15, or does this only apply to the disciples also?) The power of the Holy Spirit then works in us good fruits and fulfills in us the righteousness of the law(see Romans 8:1-4) Romans 2 and Hebrews 8 makes it clear that the law is then written on our hearts thus we want to do the good works and they are not grievous (See 1 John 5:3) So then we can say as David did in Psalm 40:8 "I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law [is] within my heart."

This all comes about by a change from our sinful nature to a spiritual nature as Paul so eloquently describes in Romans 7. He attributes this change to the working of the Holy Spirit. See again Romans 8:1-4.

Cont.. Below

[Loveaboveall]

Too long of a post... Continued here

I do not believe that there is any difference b/w the baptism of John and the baptism of Jesus except for the fact that Cornelius had never heard or understood what the Holy Spirit was so it had not been manifested to him.

You need to answer the above points!
You need to produce the scripture(s) that you think support this!

1 Peter 2:9 "But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:"

See above regarding the consecration of the Priesthood

Baptism is the cleansing aspect, The holy spirit(oil) is the anointing aspect that consecrates us to God.

that they needed was a special prayer for the Holy Spirit to be bestowed on them.

“Special prayer”??? Do you read of any prayer in Acts 10??? Where is it??? Where does this idea come from???

With the laying of hands there is normally a prayer of anointing is there not? Or does your specific church not practice the laying on of hands as the early church did?

There is nothing to suggest they were immersed in water again from these verses.

Acts 10:47 – “Can any man forbid WATER…” Are you serious about this???

We can disagree about this and it really does not have that much bearing on the subject at hand! Water is not mentioned just a baptism.

Who is John speaking to here [Matt. 3:11] ? It is not to the 12 disciples, for they had not come yet with Jesus. He spoke these words to the people who he was baptizing!

John was speaking to the Jews. No specific person(s) is addressed. John is telling them that Christ is going to baptize (at some time) with the HS. No time & no persons are addressed specifically other than the Jews.

Point taken, either view can be taken again. I believe the Bible says that the Holy Spirit works in me to fulfill the righteousness of the law that I cannot do on my own because I am carnal, sold under sin... so I don't believe that it was spoken for just the 12.



Jesus DOES address who was to receive HS baptism – John 14:16, 16:13, Luke 24:49, Acts 1:5,8.
The TWELVE were the only one promised HS baptism by Christ.
In fulfillment of Joel 2/Acts 2:17 Cornelius and household also received HS baptism.

See above..

How can this not be for anyone who accepts Jesus
Quite simple – HS baptism was not promised to anyone else.

If this is the case then there are a lot of people trying to produce good fruits on their own and I can guarantee you they are not doing a good job.

By the way, if the Holy Spirit was not available to anyone but the 12, then what about the other prophets of the NT. Even more... what about the elders, teachers, evangelsists of today? Where do they recieve this gift? Or are they not gifts?

Are you suggesting that people could not be forgiven of their sins until Jesus died?!
I am plainly stating it! Tell me HOW such was possible BEFORE the cross???
You certainly did not answer my questions did you?

Did Moses lie?

Lev 4:20 And he shall do with the bullock as he did with the bullock for a sin offering, so shall he do with this: and the priest shall make an atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them.

Lev 4:35 And he shall do with the bullock as he did with the bullock for a sin offering, so shall he do with this: and the priest shall make an atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them.

Numbers 15:25 And the priest shall make an atonement for all the congregation of the children of Israel, and it shall be forgiven them; for it [is] ignorance: and they shall bring their offering, a sacrifice made by fire unto the LORD, and their sin offering before the LORD, for their ignorance:

Mark 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and [their] sins should be forgiven them.

If this is true then how can any of the patriarchs be a part of the resurrection?
See Romans 3:25…

This verse makes the point that Jesus was the propitiation for those sins, which I do not deny. Moses very clear, however, that those sins were not hung over their heads until Jesus died. They were forgiven when they confessed them.

Did Jesus lie when he told the adulteress woman or the blind man "your sins are forgiven"?

You err not knowing the scriptures. Jesus had authority on earth to forgive sins – Matthew 9:6. You and I will NOT be forgiven in this manner because Jesus no longer “walks” on the earth!

Did Jesus not have power in heaven to forgive sins before He came to this earth? The point you made was that sins could not be forgiven BEFORE a sacrifice/propitiation had been offered. I made the point that your statement was false which Jesus proved and Moses proved.

I have to object to your interpretation here[Luke 3:3]. The word "unto" clearly means that the baptism lead to the forgiveness of their sins.

Really? How so??? Please harmonize this with Acts 19:4 – okay?

Please harmonize with Mark 1:4, "John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins."

To suggest Luke meant to say that forgiveness of sins did not occur until the cross is also very misleading. The verse [Luke 24:47] is intended to mean the "preaching" was to begin in Jerusalem not the forgiveness.

This means the “preaching”??? Aren’t YOU saying that John the baptizer was already doing this ???????? So how do you explain you point on Luke 24:47????
Please be consistent! Luke said that Jesus said repentance and remission of sins would BEGIN in Jerusalem.

Luke 24:47, "And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem."

Yes John the Baptist preached the exact same thing in Judea preparing people for Jesus and His ministry. Now the disciples were sent to preach the SAME thing to the WORLD. They were to start with the Jews first which would be in Jerusalem because they would be gathered there for Pentecost. How ludicruous to suggest that remission of sins did not begin until Pentecost 50 DAYS AFTER Jesus died!

The act here [Acts 19:1-6] could be viewed either way...
No – it can’t!
>>That Paul immeresed them in water and then layed hands on them or... Paul layed hands on them annointing them in the name of Jesus Christ and when He did this the Holy Ghost came upon them.
“Annointing” them???? Where did that come from???????

See above on the priesthood which we all are part of per Peter. The early church was commanded by James to annoint when a person in sickness, also. (see James 5:14) Note that this did not require an apostle but Elders. Where did the healing come from? God through the Holy Spirit which is symbolized by the oil!



God can only work through His apostles and when they die so does God's ability to bestow the Holy Ghost? For some reason this just doesn't sound right

That is what the scriptures show. Do you have something else? Please share it!

James 5:4 which I just spoke of makes this clear that ELDERS can annoint with oil for healing which is by the Holy Spirit. The very fact that we still have elders suggests that they have been baptized with the Holy Spirit and have been given the gift of Eldership. Same for teachers, evangelists, prophets, tongues etc.



Hope this helps!