Defining who we are...pre poll thread....[open]

[Tishri1]

Dear Mishpachah,

PG and I were talking on the phone tonight and we decided we want to hear from YOU the MJ community....Would you help us define who MJs are?

This is a pre poll thread.... I will post a poll in lets say a week and all the info I gather here will go into that poll.

Keep it short enough to fit neatly into a poll , and after I post the poll you can vote, right now I just want ideas and statements that define who we are.....

thanks everyone:wave:

Love Tishri

[skippys]

New Covenant. I must go with Jesus, what He did, what He taught and what He commanded me to do.

Mat 26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

[stone]

Torah observance, that is what can be kept of it. Like, what is and what is not considered food.

The observance of the festivals.

shabbat, no work - if at all possible.

[visionary]

God is throwing a party on set days of the year and He is calling us all to attend. He has weekly parties and parties that last all week. There are seven set celebrations of events in His and our lives which He wants us to celebrate for all eternity. I was invited to attend. So here I am.

[Wags]

I think what sets Messianics apart from other followers of Messiah Yeshua is that we believe that the Torah is the gift of God , being God's eternal and unchanging revelation and instructions in righteousness.

We do not "observe & remember" torah in order to merit salvation – that is not what it was designed for. We observe it because we have been redeemed.

Paul wrote “For it is not merely the hearers of Torah whom God considers righteous; rather, it is the doers of what Torah says who will be made righteous in God's sight.” (Romans 2:13)




Ok that probably wasn't short enough :) So in a nutshell, torah observance is what makes us unique.

[debi b]

We know that the Torah is good IF one uses it lawfully (Tim 1:8)

This is where Hebrew/Aramaic texts shine :) In this verse "one uses" is in a reflexive state and gives us a meaning of "the individual causes himself to walk".

I believe the goal of messianic thought should mature into what does the "tutor" teach us. How can we not know that the message of Torah is REPENT?

And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself. (Lk 24:27)

I believe we still have a great deal to learn :)

[Gwenyfur]

MJ- One who uphold's the law of G-d, written and oral, believes in the grace and forgiveness provided in Y'shua's sacrifice.

[talmidim]

THIS IS NOT A DENOMINATION PEOPLE.

I think deciding what a Messianic is by vote is wrong on many levels. It is already agreed that the constituency of this forum changes over time. So it could be argued that holding a vote now is an attempt to define Messianics by who is in majority - now. This is wrong. Torah observance changes from group to group by matters of degrees.

Also a local vote has no regard for what is going on in the worldwide Messianic movement. And a vote of this nature shows little or no regard for the theological issues that have been so hotly debated here as of late. Open discussion should not be discouraged by the majority rule mentality. If you disagree then perhaps we should all just return to the RCC and end all discussion.

The ONLY requirements for a Messianic should be an adherence to the Ten Commandments including the Sabbath, the observance of the Appointed Times of the Lord, and a willingness to learn Torah and the teachings of Yeshua and His disciples in their original, first century Hebraic context. This seems to be the only things in common with all Messianic groups worldwide.

We simply have to accept that this is not a denomination, but a movement comprised of many adherents. Defining a doctrinal statement or an admission standard for this forum based on a majority vote is much too narrow-minded an undertaking.

[Ahavah]

I'm just wondering..
"WHY"?

So if we poll..what's it going to really change?


I fell for ya Tishri, Looks like the party is over.

Anyway..You know where I stand.
:amen: I'm New Covenant.:amen:

[ContentInHim]

What happened to P_G's idea a few months ago that MJ actually open its definition rather than close it. More open threads than closed. More discussion rather than less.

I hope CF MJ doesn't become one more denomination to "be called out of". :(

[Tishri1]

I'm just wondering..
"WHY"?

So if we poll..what's it going to really change?


I fell for ya Tishri, Looks like the party is over.

Anyway..You know where I stand.
:amen: I'm New Covenant.:amen:
we want to let MJ decide for itself ....is that soooo wrong:), BTW I rep'ed you for this one friend:thumbsup::hug::hug::hug::hug:

What happened to P_G's idea a few months ago that MJ actually open its definition rather than close it. More open threads than closed. More discussion rather than less.

I hope CF MJ doesn't become one more denomination to "be called out of". :(there are some pretty nasty rumors floating around if you all think we are doing that, and yes we are a more open forum starting with PGs statement a few months ago....and no one is trying to do any of the things rumored about us....

the spin cycle is still going I guess....

[Kalanit]

Pro Torah & Pro Brit Hadasha

Jewish in ethnicity, thought, culture, heritage (Messianic Jews)
Messianic Gentiles, following the feasts/ fasts and visiting the synagogue to learn more of Torah and the things of G-d ... Being a strong witness to the reality of the "Grafted In" ones living Kingdom Life...

I think there needs to be some sort of definition! And I don't think someone who is 100% Scottish, for example, ought to try to be Jewish in some sort of way... but his actions, in support of Israel, Torah, the rights of the Believing Jews to BE JEWS is his personal testimony to the reality of the "One New Man."

There needs to be a category of Believers who, although they have no real connection with the Jews (ethnically, culturally, etc.) they make a pro-Jew stand and are openly Pro-Torah. They may not do all that is layed out for the Jews to do, but they have enough information about the topic to understand the flow of scripture, how it fits together, their part in the Kingdom, and understand and support the Messianic Jewish movement.

Example, Yod's friend from Germany... he isn't "Messianic" and most in his congregation are not Jews... but they understand what G-d is doing, they are pro-Israel and support the MJ community.

I'm not sure how you would define them, but there should really be a clear difference between those who feel they have replaced the Jews and those who are actively supportive of the Nation of Israel and the MJ movement.

...finish later

[Ahavah]

we want to let MJ decide for itself ....is that soooo wrong:), BTW I rep'ed you for this one friend:thumbsup:


Hey Tishri...I must tell ya... I agree with Tal on this one. This whole MJ forum has turned into a denom, and that's not so cool.
:liturgy: But hey..Isn't that what CF is all about anyway..Denominations?
So I guess the MJ forum is just trying to define the different kinds of Messianics in CF land?...and the majority wins?? Who knows?

Like I said before Tishri, I feel for ya. I'd hate to be in the middle of this one. I pray your Shabbat is a good one. You are always welcome to come on over and have Shabbat with us. We are having Baked Chicken, sweet potatoes, salad and challah. You bring the dessert. :thumbsup:

Lots of Hugs and one big kiss:kiss: Ahavah

[jgonz]

I don't know what's going on behind the scenes and I don't want to. I'm tired of the bickering. If you all were my children, I'd tell you to stop it or you'd get paddled. ;)

Anyway, I liked what Kalanit said:
Pro Torah & Pro Brit Hadasha

Jewish in ethnicity, thought, culture, heritage (Messianic Jews)
Messianic Gentiles, following the feasts/ fasts and visiting the synagogue to learn more of Torah and the things of G-d ... Being a strong witness to the reality of the "Grafted In" ones living Kingdom Life...

[Henaynei]

What happened to P_G's idea a few months ago that MJ actually open its definition rather than close it. More open threads than closed. More discussion rather than less.

I hope CF MJ doesn't become one more denomination to "be called out of". :(it is not the mods that make or break such a plan - it is the scroll carrying members of MJF - if you want to know what happened go count the number of [open] vs not-[open] threads started in the last 30 days - and to be fair don't count the ones started on THIS subject and those about Charles that were started in the last seven days

it is not the mods who decide which threads are [open] or not - it is the scroll carrying members of MJF.

b'Shalom
Henaynei

[Wags]

it is not the mods that make or break such a plan - it is the scroll carrying members of MJF - if you want to know what happened go count the number of [open] vs not-[open] threads started in the last 30 days - and to be fair don't count the ones started on THIS subject and those about Charles that were started in the last seven days

it is not the mods who decide which threads are [open] or not - it is the scroll carrying members of MJF.

b'Shalom
Henaynei
You are right - but to be honest it isn't that we don't want y'all to be able to post it is that we forget to add [open] to our titles. I wish there was a less cumbersome way of doing it.

[Tishri1]

Hey Tishri...I must tell ya... I agree with Tal on this one. This whole MJ forum has turned into a denom, and that's not so cool.
:liturgy: But hey..Isn't that what CF is all about anyway..Denominations?
So I guess the MJ forum is just trying to define the different kinds of Messianics in CF land?...and the majority wins?? Who knows?

Like I said before Tishri, I feel for ya. I'd hate to be in the middle of this one. I pray your Shabbat is a good one. You are always welcome to come on over and have Shabbat with us. We are having Baked Chicken, sweet potatoes, salad and challah. You bring the dessert. :thumbsup:

Lots of Hugs and one big kiss:kiss: AhavahI love youhttp://s21.photobucket.com/albums/b286/flagady15/smilies/th_11_1_218v.gif thanks for not being mad at me,

[P_G]

Why is this being done?

I think that is a good question and I agree we are not a denomination but rather a way of life a direction if you will.

There are some who have very wrongly assumed that some how quietly behind the scenes I have personally desired to turn the MJf into some kind of online extension of my own congregation and that is an absolute fallacy and in fact nothing could be further from the truth.

Case in point would be that there are several points in the sotierology of the the MJAA that CTOMC to which I belong are absolutely at odds with. But I would have to be a fools fool to say that some one in the MJAA is not messianic.

So I have asked that we have a poll a vote so that the community can decide for itself what it is that is to say how it wants to define itself.

Now if the vote goes that you do not want to define what a Messianic is then we may have to decide if it even belongs in the Congregational forums at all and be given the protection offered a congregational forum. And if that is what the community wants then that is what you shall have. We can certainly move the forum to the General Theology or even the open sections of the board again it is up to you all.

I want you to remember that while we are here as a congregational forum you are given a safe haven to discuss your faith and I would say argue your faith with other Messianics without the intrusion of those who self identify as something other than Messianic.

So How would you define a Messianic? Who should our community include and who simply is not Messianic? You are being given the chance to make this decision.


PG

[talmidim]

Shalom P_G,

You have eloquently answered every point but two. Why should there be any change at all. And why now?

This subject of redefining the forum has not been started by the members.
This topic of redefining this forum was started by the Mods.
The threads on this topic of redefining this forum were started by the Mods.Before this move on your part, the only thing that was going on was debate about the interpretation of scripture. And I thought that this is what our forum was about. Is there any wonder some people question your motives?

Why don't you guys put this thing to bed and let us go back to what we love - debating the nature of scripture and Adonai.

In His Love,

[Henaynei]

You are right - but to be honest it isn't that we don't want y'all to be able to post it is that we forget to add [open] to our titles. I wish there was a less cumbersome way of doing it. I know you mean well, but how much less cumbersome could it be? it is 6 key strokes while you are already typing out the thread title. Honestly, if forgetting us is the issue then even if it was a simple check box it would still happen ....

b'Shalom
Henaynei

[Henaynei]

Shalom P_G,

You have eloquently answered every point but two. Why should there be any change at all. And why now?


This subject of redefining the forum has not been started by the members.
This topic of redefining this forum was started by the Mods.
The threads on this topic of redefining this forum were started by the Mods.Before this move on your part, the only thing that was going on was debate about the interpretation of scripture. And I thought that this is what our forum was about. Is there any wonder some people question your motives?

Why don't you guys put this thing to bed and let us go back to what we love - debating the nature of scripture and Adonai.

In His Love,

In all fairness, as an ex-mod and one who was on the Exec I can tell you that the challenge of if MJF even belongs among the other believing forums is not infrequently brought up by mods and members of CF who strongly deny MJF the right to BE in the congregational fora.... I personally have fought many a heated battle during my tour of duty to protect and preserve MJF in the protected environment among the other groups of believers. But the challenge, though well met and defeated repeatedly, has never gone away, and never will. Thus when it resurfaces the entire issue must be readdressed.

We are VERY blessed to have such a large representation in the upper levels of the mod staff. It is for this reason and by their skill and commitment to the members of this forum that MJF has remained here. Such success may not always be something to be achieved and certainly can not be depended upon or taken as granted.

I can also tell you that when your representatives do stand to be counted on this issue it is not unheard of that their own fitness (by virtue of their Messianic beliefs) to be on staff, much less in administrative and leadership positions is also heatedly challenged. I can tell you form personal experience that those who take a committed stand for this forum behind the scenes, in the trenches and in their dedicated moderation don't always survive such a challenge. What makes it worse is that some of those who bring such a challenge are sometimes among, and/or supported by, members of this forum.

It is in G-d's hands..... prayer changes things....

Have you prayed for the MJF staff today?

b'Shalom
Henaynei

[CaDan]

Why is this being done?

I think that is a good question and I agree we are not a denomination but rather a way of life a direction if you will.

There are some who have very wrongly assumed that some how quietly behind the scenes I have personally desired to turn the MJf into some kind of online extension of my own congregation and that is an absolute fallacy and in fact nothing could be further from the truth.

Case in point would be that there are several points in the sotierology of the the MJAA that CTOMC to which I belong are absolutely at odds with. But I would have to be a fools fool to say that some one in the MJAA is not messianic.

So I have asked that we have a poll a vote so that the community can decide for itself what it is that is to say how it wants to define itself.

Now if the vote goes that you do not want to define what a Messianic is then we may have to decide if it even belongs in the Congregational forums at all and be given the protection offered a congregational forum. And if that is what the community wants then that is what you shall have. We can certainly move the forum to the General Theology or even the open sections of the board again it is up to you all.

I want you to remember that while we are here as a congregational forum you are given a safe haven to discuss your faith and I would say argue your faith with other Messianics without the intrusion of those who self identify as something other than Messianic.

So How would you define a Messianic? Who should our community include and who simply is not Messianic? You are being given the chance to make this decision.


PG

Just an observation from The Worst Catholic On the Internet (tm) . . . .

Whosoever Will, May Come (http://www.christianforums.com/f401-whosoever-will-may-come-liberal.html) has managed to survive for several years as a forum without a defined congregation.

Just sayin' . . . .

[Yusuphhai]

Messianic Gentile

I don’t know clearly. If possible, I consider myself as a Messianic Gentile (or christian in the meaning of New Testament), who has a special relationship with Israel, who observes Torah not strictly (mainly for the sake of surrounding, but I have no obligation to observe all Torah of Moshe strictly since I was born). It is easier for me to receive G-d of Abraham just because I have Abrahamic blood lineage by flesh and I find some faults about the concept of G-d in general church.

Conflict and Loneliness is not only challenge but also chance to really unite in Yeshua. I know it’s the plan of the Almighty One to put me in this special place although I am still in confusion of theology.


Shalom, Yusuph

[BereanTodd]

The ONLY requirements for a Messianic should be an adherence to the Ten Commandments including the Sabbath, the observance of the Appointed Times of the Lord, and a willingness to learn Torah and the teachings of Yeshua and His disciples in their original, first century Hebraic context. This seems to be the only things in common with all Messianic groups worldwide.

Here, here, I agree whole-heartedly with this.

We simply have to accept that this is not a denomination, but a movement comprised of many adherents. Defining a doctrinal statement or an admission standard for this forum based on a majority vote is much too narrow-minded an undertaking.


I agree with this as well.

[visionary]

Can't we leave things as they are... vague enough to allow the Lord to move us and united on those things that the Lord has brought us together in the first place.

The ONLY requirements for a Messianic should be an adherence to the Ten Commandments including the Sabbath, the observance of the Appointed Times of the Lord, and a willingness to learn Torah and the teachings of Yeshua and His disciples in their original, first century Hebraic context. This seems to be the only things in common with all Messianic groups worldwide.

[insaneinthebrain]

Okay, I have to break my silence to address some stuff:In all fairness, as an ex-mod and one who was on the Exec I can tell you that the challenge of if MJF even belongs among the other believing forums is not infrequently brought up by mods and members of CF who strongly deny MJF the right to BE in the congregational fora.... I personally have fought many a heated battle during my tour of duty to protect and preserve MJF in the protected environment among the other groups of believers. But the challenge, though well met and defeated repeatedly, has never gone away, and never will. Thus when it resurfaces the entire issue must be readdressed.

We are VERY blessed to have such a large representation in the upper levels of the mod staff. It is for this reason and by their skill and commitment to the members of this forum that MJF has remained here. Such success may not always be something to be achieved and certainly can not be depended upon or taken as granted.

I can also tell you that when your representatives do stand to be counted on this issue it is not unheard of that their own fitness (by virtue of their Messianic beliefs) to be on staff, much less in administrative and leadership positions is also heatedly challenged. I can tell you form personal experience that those who take a committed stand for this forum behind the scenes, in the trenches and in their dedicated moderation don't always survive such a challenge. What makes it worse is that some of those who bring such a challenge are sometimes among, and/or supported by, members of this forum.

You know that the only time our inclusion was brought into question it had to do with 2 issues:

1) Large numbers of people coming here and basically claiming normative Christianity to be opposed to God.

2) Large numbers of non-Trinitarians sporting the Torah scroll and using this forum to openly oppose the Trinity. (MJ is defined by CF as a Christian group, and the definition of "Christian" upheld by this site includes acceptance of the Trinity).

Both of these issues have been resolved. Any staffer still claiming MJ doesn't belong here can only be doing so out of arrogance.

Why is this being done?

I think that is a good question and I agree we are not a denomination but rather a way of life a direction if you will.

There are some who have very wrongly assumed that some how quietly behind the scenes I have personally desired to turn the MJf into some kind of online extension of my own congregation and that is an absolute fallacy and in fact nothing could be further from the truth.

Case in point would be that there are several points in the sotierology of the the MJAA that CTOMC to which I belong are absolutely at odds with. But I would have to be a fools fool to say that some one in the MJAA is not messianic.

So I have asked that we have a poll a vote so that the community can decide for itself what it is that is to say how it wants to define itself.

Now if the vote goes that you do not want to define what a Messianic is then we may have to decide if it even belongs in the Congregational forums at all and be given the protection offered a congregational forum. And if that is what the community wants then that is what you shall have. We can certainly move the forum to the General Theology or even the open sections of the board again it is up to you all.

I want you to remember that while we are here as a congregational forum you are given a safe haven to discuss your faith and I would say argue your faith with other Messianics without the intrusion of those who self identify as something other than Messianic.

So How would you define a Messianic? Who should our community include and who simply is not Messianic? You are being given the chance to make this decision.


PG

This actually makes me physically ill. You're fixing a forum that was never broken to begin with, and now you're making threats of moving this place should the members not do what you want them to?

[Charles YTK]

:thumbsup:

Yes, I saw the threat too.

[talmidim]

Having misunderstood what P_G was trying to say, I retract and apologize for what I posted here. I am soooo glad to know that we want the same things for this forum.

P_G, I was wrong and I humbly ask that you forgive me.

[Sephania]

Such harsh words being said to one another, and on Shabbat even. :( Don't you know the world looks on? If you are going to call someone to task about sin, it should be done as Yeshua defined, should it not? Go to your brother in private first, then with a witness or two, then bring it before the congregation.

I must ask Talmidim have you done so?

I pray the Shalom of Yeshua on all this Shabbat, may we lay down our weapons of words, at least until sundown, and rest in his word, read it, ingest it, be filled with it and come back after much prayer.

:pray:

MJ Staff, I don't find you faultless, this kind of thread should have not been left open for Shabbat, business of this forum could wait until after Shabbat is over.

[talmidim]

Dear Sister Zayit,

My Master healed the sick on Shabbat. He also spoke harsh truths. Surely I don't need to quote you scripture on these topics...

In His Love,

[P_G]

Okay, I have to break my silence to address some stuff: <snip>



This actually makes me physically ill. <snip> How dare you!

My most sincere apologies to you it was not my intention to make you nor anyone sick.

Please allow me to rescind my comments and suggestions. I can see that my taking part in the MJf is probably ill advised and I will recuse myself from any further participation here both publicly and privately save for those issues that might concern the Exec as a whole.

PG

[P_G]

I am re-opening this thread since I posted in it and it is unfair for me to be able to post and not all the rest of you.

PG

[Sephania]

Maybe you should have held off till after Shabbat was over to post? My understanding and from what I have heard directly from you r mouth many times is that you don't work on Shabbat, this is business, and could have waited, till Shabbat was over, which is still over half an hour a way.

:(

[talmidim]

Having misunderstood what P_G was trying to say, I retract and apologize for what I posted in this thread. I am soooo glad to know that we want the same things for this forum.

P_G, I was wrong and I humbly ask that you forgive me.:bow:

I have started a new thread based on who to INCLUDE in the MJ forum. It includes the PM that I received from P_G on this subject.

BTW Pastor George, please delete that thread about your leaving. Let's instead try to get everyone back, OK? Sorry...:hug:

[P_G]

Maybe you should have held off till after Shabbat was over to post? My understanding and from what I have heard directly from you r mouth many times is that you don't work on Shabbat, this is business, and could have waited, till Shabbat was over, which is still over half an hour a way.

:(

Trying to heal and to bring peace is not work at least I don't think it's work. I did not want the angst to continue on and if I have erred and I have worked then I shall have to plea the blood over my ignorance and arrogance against the Most High.

PG

[stone]

Is this how you guys define yourselves?

[P_G]

Personally I define myself as an overweight middle aged preacher who doesn't eat pork, lies around the house on Saturdays and decorates with twinkle lights on 4th of July.

PG

[Henaynei]

:hug: :hug: :hug:
Personally I define myself as an overweight middle aged preacher who doesn't eat pork, lies around the house on Saturdays and decorates with twinkle lights on 4th of July.

PG
:hug: :hug: :hug:

[stone]

Reminds me of what was read in bible study earlier:

1Ti 4:8For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come.

[Tishri1]

Having misunderstood what P_G was trying to say, I retract and apologize for what I posted in this thread. I am soooo glad to know that we want the same things for this forum.

P_G, I was wrong and I humbly ask that you forgive me.:bow:

I have started a new thread based on who to INCLUDE in the MJ forum. It includes the PM that I received from P_G on this subject.

BTW Pastor George, please delete that thread about your leaving. Let's instead try to get everyone back, OK? Sorry...:hug:


Having misunderstood what P_G was trying to say, I retract and apologize for what I posted here. I am soooo glad to know that we want the same things for this forum.

P_G, I was wrong and I humbly ask that you forgive me.
thanks you soooooo much Tal:hug::hug::hug::hug:
This misunderstanding started from a mind set that some conspiracy was taking place here in MJ , I'm soooooo glad you can see that is not the case, no one is changing this place (unless you all together decide it that way) and no one is being forced to leave...

some of you have taken Zayit's advice and have come to us privately and kept the rumors out of the forum and we sooooooo appreciate that....:groupray: