Misconceptions about hell.

[Mankin]

Many people say that hell is a place of eternal torment. That is not true. It says in Revalation that after the one thousand years in heaven have passed, the unsaved people will rise from the dead and join the devil in attacking the City in Heaven. Once they have gathered, a fire will come and consume them all. They will die, they will not be tormented, they will die. The one reason why people believe in an eternal hell is the parable Jesus told about Lazarus and the rich man. In that parable he says that the descendents of Abraham all come from his bussim. He would have to have a huge bussim for that so we know Jesus is not speaking about this literaly. This parable wasn't about hell, it was about the Jews not inheriting heaven. Also, is it just me, or does it seem unjust to make someone burn for eternity for a lifetime of sins? I would have trouble loving a God that would do that. Not even the worst humans in the world would do that. This is contradictory to God's merifullness and love. Where is the love in torturing someone for eternity? Simply put, an eternal hell does not exist, and eternal death does. God must destroy sin, so why would he keep it alive by having the sin carriers, the unsaved to live. Also, God knows that those people would be miserable in heaven so he gives them what they want, eternal death. Opinions and comments are welcome.

[Mankin]

Also, the idea of eternal hell drives people away from Christ and contradicts God's character. If anyone wishes to use the book of Joshua to counter me, I have my responses ready,(not attacking or wanting to start a fight, I am just saying.)

[mont974x4]

Mat 25:46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."


Then where do they go?


The idea of eternal punishment/damnation/whatever you want to label it as is certainly inline with God's character as it relates to Him being just and righteous and holy. He has given the way of escape through Christ. If people reject Him, that's on them.

[Ben12]

Mat 25:46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."


Then where do they go?


The idea of eternal punishment/damnation/whatever you want to label it as is certainly inline with God's character as it relates to Him being just and righteous and holy. He has given the way of escape through Christ. If people reject Him, that's on them.

Ecclesiastes 12:7
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

[Ben12]

The word hell is not in the Greek or Hebrew or Aramaic the language the Bible was written in; but it comes from an Angle Saxon word “hel” meaning to bury. Most translators of the Bible today do not even put the word hell in their Bibles because it is not in the language.

Tar-ta-rus (tart rs) [[ Gr Tartaros ]] Gr. Myth. 1 an infernal abyss below Hades, where Zeus hurls the rebel Titans, later a place of punishment for the demons and devils not people. (mentioned only once in the Bible)

Ha-des (hadez) [[Gr Haides ]] 1 Gr. Myth. a) the home of the dead, beneath the earth b) the god of the underworld 2 Bible the state or resting place of the dead: name used in some modern translations of the New Testament

Ge-hen-na (gi hen, g-) [[LL (Ec) Gr Geenna, hell Heb gey hinom, where the kings Ahaz and Manasseh were said to have sacrificed their sons to Moloch]] the valley of Hinnom (see below), near Jerusalem, where refuse was burned in Biblical times. In other words “The garbage heap” This word is used with Jews as well as a typology for believers (If your brother ofens you not sinners or heathen)

She-ol (eol) [[Heb shaal , to dig]] Bible a place in the depths of the earth conceived of as the dwelling of the dead

Then you take the Greek Word aion/aionias and look how it has been so often mistranslated, misconstrued in scripture this eternal hell doctrine has no foundation in the original language unless of course you rather believe some ones bias instead of seeking for truth.

[Solidlyhere]

Just because the Lake of Fire is in Revelation, it doesn't follow that it's Hell.

I am less concerned what will happen AFTER the 1,000-year reign of Jesus Christ.
Where do the "sinners" go BEFORE (and during) those 1000 years?

Since the End Judgment may easily be 1000s of years away, there is probably a place -- which is NOT Heaven -- that isn't a Fun place to be.

Actually, my feeling about the matter is:
1) Heaven is for Believers; and
2) A lack-of-Heaven is for the rest.

Having God around is exciting and Fun.
But -- for the others -- being without God is lonely and scary.
Whether that scary feeling is caused by having pyres of fires, I am not sure.

[Mankin]

The Bible is clear that they will die forever nor burn forever. No one has provided evidence for an eternal hell on this thread.

[Jon0388g]

Mat 25:46"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."


Then where do they go?


The idea of eternal punishment/damnation/whatever you want to label it as is certainly inline with God's character as it relates to Him being just and righteous and holy. He has given the way of escape through Christ. If people reject Him, that's on them.


Yes, the Bible is correct. They go to eternal punishment, not eternal punishing.

My two cents,

Jon

[Ben12]

Yes, the Bible is correct. They go to eternal punishment, not eternal punishing.

My two cents,

Jon

Punishiment Greek Strongs 2849 kolazo (kol-ad'-zo);
from kolos (dwarf); properly, to curtail, i.e. (figuratively) to chastise (or reverse for infliction): Punishment 2851 kolasis- correction, punishment, penalty
2849 kolazo-
1) to lop or prune, as trees and wings
2) to curb, to check, to restrain
3) to chastise, to correct, to punishment
4) to cause to be punished

2 Peter 2:1
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Strong’s NT:684 apoleia (ap-o'-li-a); from a presumed derivative of NT:622; ruin or loss (physical, spiritual or eternal):

KJV - damnable (-nation), destruction, die, perdition, X perish, pernicious ways, waste.

Notice what the Greek says the false prophets bring. Do they bring the message that God will save all; do they bring the good news of salvation to the whole earth. No they bring damnations , destruction, perish etc.

[Mankin]

There are false prophets but do not call me one. I never said that God would save everyone. He wants to do that but he can't if they don't accept him. There is not an eternal hell. There is eternal death. I notice that I have not received good arguments from people on the other side of the issue.

[ApollotheLizard]

Not a place of torment? The complete and short definition of Hell: An eternal state without God. Period. God has no place there. Sure He can do whatever He wants with it, but He can't hear you there. God is absent in Hell. What torment is greater than this?
Yes it is eternal death. They have a word for that. It's commonly known as "Hell."
In my Bible dictionary: "Hell: A plase of eternal punishment, also Gehenna."

[Mankin]

But God is not going to keep you alive and torture you in fire.

[ApollotheLizard]

Your not alive in Hell. You have Life in Heaven. Everlasting Life. Hell is everlasting death.
Anyone whose names was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the pool of fire. -Revelation 20:15

[Tube Socks Dude]

There is not an eternal hell. There is eternal death.
Hell is everlasting death.

I agree that the phrase (eternal hell) is nowhere found in Scripture.

From what I understand, people pick from three different Greek words to translate the word eternal or everlasting (aionion, aidion or ateleuteton).

I have yet to find such adjective in Scripture modifying either hell or death.

If death (thanaton) were eternal, wouldn't Scripture contain a phrase similar to one of the following?
1. Aionian death - (thanaton aionion)
2. Eternal death - (thanaton ateleuteton)
3. Deathless death - (thanaton athanaton)

Do the prophets, Jesus, the apostles or ecumenical councils ever use such phrases to describe death? If not, how can you fellows be sure there is such a thing as eternal/everlasting death? Please document an authoritative source such as prophets, apostles, Jesus or an ecumenical council using a phrase such as eternal/everlasting death. Thanks

[Greatcloud]

Thank you Tube Socks Dude the Bible does not mention eternal torture. In fact the Bible mentions being in chains or in prision or a dry place many more times then fire.


One of the times the Bible mentions those in prision when speaking of hell is in 1 Peter. Many people know of those two verses in 1 Peter that speak of hell. Please read them and draw hope from what they say.


1 Peter 3:18b,19 quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached to the souls in prison.


1 Peter 4:6 For this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead,that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.




These verses do not tell us the implications of what Peter says. But he says it twice, a standard/primary form of emphasis in the Bible. And Peter was closer to Jesus then anyone, save perhaps John. There can be no mistaking the primary meaning of what he says. Many scholars who write commentaries do so many gymnastics to get around this wondrous candor here,glorious. Enough commentaries do take the first meaning, and I applaud them.


I am not implying these verses mean everyone gets the gospel preached to them. But there they are;
and they do show Gods mercy and the perfection of his plan. Why do we feel we need to change the meaning of these verses to fit our doctrine ? For me it answers the question of hell; God seems to have, through love made provision for those before the cross.We don't know what will happen from now til Jesus comes,but I do know one thing, I will trust God on this subject. For me this brings hope based on a little more then faith,it is based on knowledge. You cannot have certain questions if you believe what these verses say. If you do, you doubt Gods love for us.

















:angel:

[bluemarkus]

that is an important point you are making, mankin.
religious traditions have handed us down a false eschatology.
god would never torture people in fire forever, that does not make any sense.

[Mankin]

Amen. Not even the worst dicatators in the world would torture someone for eternity. Why would a loving God do that?

[bluemarkus]

well, this is just another proof that would-be-disciples and post-constantine era mass "christianity" do not know what they are talking about.

[brimac]

I too am a conditionalist, meaning that I believe that Hell=destruction, not eternal conscious torment! One question I have for all of those participating in this discussion is this: Do you believe that the human soul is innately immortal?

[Ben12]

Fire was first used with the sacrifice of Able. Our flesh must be sacrificed to be in the presence of God. The sweat of Cain was not sufficient and was not an acceptable offering unto God for sin. All flesh (self) must be burnt by the fire of God.

You know Jesus God a dove when He was Baptized in the river Jordon; on the day of Pentecost believers got cloven tongues of fire. Jesus is perfect; we are not. The word fire comes from the Greek word “pur’ which we get our English word pure, purify, purge and the good old catholic purgatory.

Gehenna: Referring to the Valley of Hinnom, or Gehenna which is the city dump outside the walls of Jerusalem; a place of constant burning of refuge. Those who go to Gehenna are not sinners of the world; but are sinners of God’s people. (how precious is this a type of purification outside of God’s holy city. All things that are not of God will be purified in God’s holy judgment. The point is simple in the 12 or 13 times that the Bible is referring to the word Gehenna it is directed towards God’s people and how important is to overcome sin.

Matthew 5:22 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
21"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, `Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' 22But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, `Rica' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, `You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell (Ge-hen-na).

Matthew 5:29 It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30And if your right hand causes you to sin cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell (Ge-hen-na).



The lake that burns with fire and brimstone I was very much helped and impressed by the understanding given by Charles Pridgeon and I would like to quote from his scholarly work on the subject of BRIMSTONE. He says: "The Lake of Fire and Brimstone signifies a fire burning with brimstone; the word 'brimstone' or sulphur defines the character of the fire. The Greek word THEION translated 'brimstone' is exactly the same word THEION which means 'divine.' Sulphur was sacred to the deity among the ancient Greeks; and was used to fumigate, to purify, and to cleanse and consecrate to the deity; for this purpose they burned it in their incense. In Homer's Iliad (16:228), one is spoken of as purifying a goblet with fire and brimstone. The verb derived from THEION is THEIOO, which means to hallow, to make divine, or to dedicate to a god (See Liddell and Scott Greek-English Lexicon, 1897 Edition). To any Greek, or any trained in the Greek language, a 'lake of fire and brimstone' would mean a 'lake of divine purification.' The idea of judgment need not be excluded. Divine purification and divine consecration are the plain meaning in ancient Greek. In the ordinary explanation, this fundamental meaning of the word is entirely left out, and nothing but eternal torment is associated with it" -end quote.



Revelations: 1 : 1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Signify to use signs and symbols; also lets not rule out types; shadows parables; mysteries and all these awesome way God speaks by His Spirit that are used all thought the Bible from Genesis to Revelation. It is not the way I interpret it or the Baptist or Lutherans; how is the Bible interpreting these word? Most hell is what people have between there ears, be it religious, man made or self imposed. I believe the wicked will be punished; but not eternally ( I will get to the word eternal later; it is a Hugh subject).

Fire: In the Greek is the word “pur’ which we now get our English word pure; purify, purge and purgatory.

Hebrews 12: 29 For our God is a consuming fire.
Acts 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

Daniel 3:21Then these men were bound in their coats, their hosen, and their hats, and their other garments, and were cast into the midst of the burning fiery furnace. Noticed God’s fire only burnt their bondages.
22Therefore because the king's commandment was urgent, and the furnace exceeding hot, the flames of the fire slew those men that took up Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego.
25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.


Isaiah: 48 10 Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction.
11For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another.

Fire melts spiritual principles until they are pure. Gold symbolic of divine life, silver, redemption; brass judgment etc.

Revelation 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

Luke 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

Malachi 3:2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

[Mankin]

There will be hell fire which will kill all those that reject God.

[Ben12]

There will be hell fire which will kill all those that reject God.



1 Corinthians 15:22-24

22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

God is not calling all people notice the word firstfruit. “Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming“. Here in New York the firstfruit of the apple season happened a few months ago. Ever sense then farmers have been harvesting the rest of the apples. What people are missing is the priesthood.

Luke 2 :10And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.

Jeremiah 31:34
And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.



Romans 5:18-20 (Weymouth’s)
It follows then just as the result of a single transgression is a condemnation which to the whole race, so also is the result of a single degree of righteousness is a life giving acquittal which extends to the whole race. (19) for as thought the disobedience of one individual the mass of mankind were constituted as sinners, so also though the obedience of one, the mass of mankind will be constituted righteous. Now law was brought in later on so that the transgression might increase, but sin increased, grace is overflowed.


Acts 15:14 Declares that he will return again and restore the Tabernacle of David and then he will save the remainder of mankind


Rom 11:26: And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, there shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob.

Rom 11:32: For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Num 14:21 But indeed as I live all the earth will be filled with the glory of the Lord.

Luke 3:6: And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.

[Mankin]

You still have to accept Christ as your Savior before He can save you. Jesus wants everyone to be in heaven but he knows that some people would be miserable in heaven because they are so attached to sin. Jesus does not want people to be miserable so he allows them to die.

[brimac]

You still have to accept Christ as your Savior before He can save you. Jesus wants everyone to be in heaven but he knows that some people would be miserable in heaven because they are so attached to sin. Jesus does not want people to be miserable so he allows them to die.
He also allows them to die so that the New Jerusalem will be preserved for those who Called upon His name!

[Mankin]

Yes, that is true as well.

[Ben12]

You still have to accept Christ as your Savior before He can save you. Jesus wants everyone to be in heaven but he knows that some people would be miserable in heaven because they are so attached to sin. Jesus does not want people to be miserable so he allows them to die.
I disagree God is not calling all people now God is only calling His firstfruits.

Beside once the Tabernacle of David is re establish then God will call the remainder of Mankind.

Acts 15:16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
17 That the residue (remainder) of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

Clearly it is written, "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in His own order; Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming." (I Cor. 15:22-23). There is no doubt concerning the totality of salvation for every man-- whatever was affected by death through Adam, shall be MADE ALIVE THROUGH CHRIST. The triumph of Christ is far greater than the sin of Adam. But the point that is before us is that of TIMING-- with "every man in his own order." There is DIVINE ORDER in this NEW CREATION that is being brought forth, as God gathers one by one a people unto Himself. From Calvary until this present time, God has been working in what is rightly termed "HIS FIRSTFRUITS." We who are living at the ending of this age (web ed. note: which still could be a long ways away) are still being drawn into this "firstfruits order." But never forget, the firstfruits of a harvest are the PROMISE that all the rest of the harvest will follow in its time.

[Mankin]

God is calling all people. All who come to Him will be saved.

[Ben12]

God is calling all people. All who come to Him will be saved.

And where do you find proof of your statement in scripture? Besides if that was the case all would be saved now; how can they resist the calling of God. No way, each in their own order.

[Ben12]

opps