From your MJ Admin and friend....[open]

[Tishri1]

I soooooo wish Charles had asked permission to post the private PM I had sent him, AND had asked me if it meant x or y or z so I could clarify, but unfortunately he didn’t, so now I must catch you all from behind and explain….

Those of you who have been here for the last year know I am not at all Rabbinical, or Talmudic, or any of the other labels we try to put on folks to better understand them…. I would say on more issues than not, I’m actually closer in the camp of Charles and Shimson theologically. But I do appreciate the benefit of knowing cool tidbits from the Talmud, Mishnah , Gamara; as that is IMO a great way to gather understanding, and meaning and learn about the culture surrounding the scriptures…..So for those of you who thought because of Charles thread that I was Rabbinic, now you know I’m not… and Charles knew that as well, so I don’t know why he would try to make me (or even PG) look any other way…

There was some question as to why I sent this PM to him and Shimshon only, and this is why….For over the past year, these two have been the target of some pretty nasty campaigns, and not just here but in other debate forums as wel,l to prove they are troublemakers or not MJ, and therefore should leave. I have not liked that one bit and have put myself on the defensive many times sticking up for them…Charles was completely wrong in why I sent this to him personally. I sent it to protect him and Shimshon from any attacks like I had seen in the past….But as I was writing it out, I knew some would take advantage of this and use it as a opportunity to hurt Charles and Shimshon, and THAT was what I was trying to avoid…..It wasn’t some manipulating conspiracy to “get rid” of these two as Charles has said, it was to protect you Charles I think you should know me better than that.

He is a brilliant writer and thinker and has soooooo many good things to teach and say, and he knows I feel this way about him as we have shared many PMs together discussing his gift….Why he would suddenly NOT know how I feel and misrepresent me to you all is beyond my comprehension…..In all his brilliance, there has always been one thorn in here though, and I guess NOW since Charles brought it out, I must share this with you all BUT please know I am watching this thread and I don’t want to see any flaming towards these two men even now….I just want to clarify and move on….

Charles has had one beef with the MJ movement, and as I understand it, he has been around long enough to see this shift in theology away from Yeshua’s teaching and onto Rabbinical theology (existing from the period after the destruction of the Temple after Yeshua, his Disciples, and even Paul)….Now I have only been in this movement 10 years, but even I can see this shift and have heard major teachers express this as well so IMO he is right BUT this PM is not even about that…..

It’s about ABBAs Word and how we as MJs understand it from the heart….Frankly it’s not a nominal teaching in the majority of MJ circles to separate Yeshua’s words from the rest of scripture especially the First Five Books (the Torah) …When most MJ’s teach they try to establish a flow from OT theology to New Testament theology… not to prove a need to be Rabbinical or head towards conversion into Judaism, but because Yeshua and ABBA are one and there is no separation of the two….AND on top of that, ALL scripture is considered ABBAs word, God breathed and Torah (teaching and instruction) for us who believe….So it is unnatural for the majority of MJs to take hold of a separation like we have been hearing from Charles for the last year .BUT his beef that we see less of Messiah in Messianic is true, and I agree we need to Shine our light again, this is something else though…..


Does that mean we can’t hope to succeed in bringing Messiah back into the MJ movement? Of course we can! What scripture did Yeshua teach from, and his disciples, and Paul? They all taught using the OT….The OT is foundational to the MJ movement

we will continue to embrace the MJ theology that the Word of God, its Torah, the whole of Scripture is teaching and instruction for everyone who is born again into the body of Messiah



Should any of you doubt for a nano second, how much PG and I care for you please know that we are crazy in love with you all, and that will never change and we will never change in this one thing ever, you have our hearts in here, and we are always looking out for your good…I feel bad that I’m soooo buzy I cant be here as much as I use to , but I think about you every day, pray for you all everyday and am here for you when ever you need me…



It seems I have now got a list somewhere of people I want to oust from here? Well that is utter nonsense, and in fact the pretend list that was up yesterday was in fact a list of some of my personal friends and that hurt me deeply as well…Please don’t think of me as an enemy ….

If you have any questions please PM them to me and I will try to answer them or find the answer for you….

Charles, even though I wish you had not posted my Private Message in the forum, I do apologize if I have hurt you and I hope you can understand why I kept it private, and why I came out with it when I did, and why I did…. and you also Shimshon, I hope you are not hurt by this public announcement I never wanted it to be this way

I love you all, My Mishpacha,
Tishri

[talmidim]

I am so sorry that this misunderstanding has taken on such monumental proportions. I love all you guys and I know that you all love Adonai. So I will keep you all in prayer, that the enemy does not gain the advantage.

[jgonz]

Thank you for the explanation Tish. This whole thing makes me sick to my stomach and wish it hadn't happened, but it has, so... we go on. I'll continue praying for everyone involved.

[Wags]

I can vouch for the fact that Tish has repeatedly stood up for Charles & Shimshon both publically and privately. She has on more than one occasion asked me to refrain from responding to them when I have disagreed with their version of the gospel.

[Charles YTK]

Tish,

I will post this here because your thread is more likely to remain while history shows that mine tend to be deleted.

First off I want you to know that I am not harboring any ill feelings toward you personally. You have gone out of your way to defend and encourage me and to train me in the higher points of refined social behavior. I stated this in my thread before you posted this one, My grievance is with the “Over-lords” whoever they might be, who dictate to this forum what we are as a group and who of it’s members is eligible to post. Most recently P_G lays claim to making this decision. As to whether or not he holds that particular authority legitimately is something for someone else to determine. For me the question is whether or not I am willing to submit myself to that authority and whether I should I compromise the mission that God has given me personally. I feel that I can not. This is why I did not post the PM to me right away but instead questioned the intentions of someone who claims to be Torah observant and then places women in charge over gathering of believing men which is not in keeping with Judaism and it’s Torah and customs. It is almost like listening to a person talk about the terrible evils of booze while they are sipping on a bourbon. There always seems to be a way around the Torah for convenience sake.

Now getting to your letter/ statement to the forum, you said that you are not a Rabbinical type and I believe you, and you say that you mostly agree with mine and Shimshons position. But then you make a decision that is totally against us and the message we preach. And you do so sort of out of the blue and in secret? You say it was your decision and not P_G’s yet he is the one who actually has authority over you and he says it was his doing. Well I am confused. But the bottom line is that our message, among all the opinions given voice in this forum, ours is the one that will not be tolerated. And what is our message? That the Kingdom of God is here, and we are part of it. That Yeshua is Lord, not Moshe or Rambam. That the New Covenant was given and the Sinai covenant is passed away. That the Torah for the Kingdom is not the same as the Torah given for the nation of Israel, similar yes but not identical word for word. All these are at the very heart of the Messianic faith and have been so from the beginning. These are the great truths of the New Testament! But someone here does not want that Gospel preached and would rather return to being “Messiah-less Jews”. Another of the members here has just left Messiah to pursue Rabbinical Judaism.

You have stated that our message was determined to be outside mainstream messianic faith and could not be preached, and yet that is what the Apostles did preach. So let’s look at “Mainstream” Messianics. They have been in a process of turning toward a strict Rabbinical interpretation of the scriptures giving more weight to Talmud than to the teachings of Yeshua. You admit that this is true. Did you realize that some are going so far as to eliminate certain writings from their accepted canon, books like Colossians, Galatians and Hebrews. Why? Because they are too hard to explain in view of their new thrust into Rabbinical Judaism. Some Messianics are now reducing Yeshua from the son of God or God incarnate to just a Rabbi from Nazzareth and a good Torah teacher. Some go even further and say that he was a radical and had some good ideas but also had some bad ideas and that is why he was killed, he broke the Torah and really wasn’t the Messiah at all. Some Messianics say that your salvation is dependent not upon Yeshua but your own perfection of Torah keeping. Is this where CFMJ is heading? Has there been any voice besides mine and Shimshon’s that have resisted these things? Not many and none as adamantly as we.

You say that all of the Bible is Torah, however that is not the belief of everyone. Some see only Moshe as Torah. I believe that all the bible is valid and authoritative. And it all has things to teach us. But one has to be blind to see that things taught in the New Testament are in many place contrary to the teachings of the Old Testament. We live in the Kingdom of Messiah and his teaching must take precedence. You accuse us of making a distinction or separation between the old and the new. Well there is a distinction, unless you think we are still supposed to be making a Pilgrimage to Jerusalem three times a year, and offering animal sacrifices for our sins, and being cleansed by the ashes of the Red Heifer and killing our sons for talking back to us. There most certainly is a difference under the New Covenant. If you step back and look at the overhead logo you will notice that MJ forum exists under the banner of “Christian” Forums and the majority, the vast majority of Christians believe and doctrinally state that the Old testament law is not valid any longer and has been replaced by the two, Love God and Love neighbor. Now if you want to see separation there is a big one and it looms over us all since we are Messianics. Will you sensor the rest of Christian forums for making this distinction? So how big is our distinction in comparison to that which is standard doctrine for the rest of CF? Not much I think. If you read what I wrote about the law of the Kingdom (Torah of Yeshua) you will see that it is in support of the Torah but places an emphasis on the interpretation and greater meaning presented by Messiah Yeshua. That is who we are, Messianics, those who follow the teachings of Messiah Yeshua.

Consider for a moment that a man can be identified in regards to his nationality by two things, the laws he keeps and who he pays taxes to. Your national identity is determined by those two. You can be from any race or ethnic origin, but your identity is based on whose laws you obey. So do we obey the laws that were given to ancient Israel? Then we are Israeli. Or do we follow the laws of Yeshua and are part of his Kingdom? For me it is the latter. I do not stone the adulterer as Israel did. I extend to them compassion and healing and a righteous course. I don’t hate those who revile me, I love them and extend God’s love to them. I don’t bring animal sacrifices nor try to earn my own salvation, I repent of my sins and rely on the finished work of Yeshua to atone for my sins and for his spirit to grow up a new righteousness within me.

What I see here Tish is pressure from someone to get us out of the way of being a front runner in mainstream Messianic faith. There are several denominational churches competing for the title, such as four square and the Baptists who want their flag over us all. And if it happens we will be required to compromise the message that defines who we are. I am not rabbinical and I am not denominational either. Messianic is different, other, separate. We are a unique voice in all the world and carry the life of Yeshua to the world. We are his body. We do not sponsor or promote wars, crusades, inquisitions, holocausts or genocide as mainstream Christianity has done over the centuries. We follow his law and teaching and carry his love within us. We are the last of a faithful line of followers who do what the master says, who sit only at his feet and learn from him. Paul was a disciple of Gamaliel, and later he tossed it aside for the better and true master, Yeshua. Should we now toss Yeshua so that we can sit at the feet of Gamaliel? I don’t think so. But many do. I never guessed that my faithfulness to Yeshua would make me an outcast to his people, but it has. I am leaving because I can not go where someone is taking this forum and these people. It is not the word the Lord gave me to share, and it does not raise up the Messiah who saved me. I am his disciple and a member of his Kingdom through the blood of the New Covenant that he made for us all. I have to remain a faithful servant to him. Yes this forum is less Rabbinical than it was a year ago. This is due in part to your leadership but also to Shimshon, Yod, Talmidim, and myself who have struggled many hours to bring the light of Yeshua back on the scriptures. Shimshon and I openly opposed those leaders before who were leading this Forum deeper and deeper into Talmudic Judaism. We preached the Kingdom, the raising up of the Sukkah of David the Torah of Messiah Yeshua. And now that message is to be excluded from being openly shared here. You have closed the door on us and cut off our mission, tied our hands and gagged our mouths. Why would we stay? There would be no point other than to pass the time and talk with old friends and make new ones. That would be fun, but that is not the mission I was given by my master, who said, “You are not to take the name of any denomination or work of men. They will not accept you in the name of a church. But they will accept you in my name, because you shall speak what I give you to say.” These words were spoken to me by the man who anointed me when I received the spirit and spoken to my heart again later as if they were audible words over the Public address system, some 30 years ago, and they have been true to this day. I will continue to speak where his word is received. Some will be blessed and some will hate it. That is God’s work. Mine is to speak what he puts on my heart.

Charles

[Henaynei]

Thank you Tish for your posts and clarification.

While I am outside Mainstream MJism, and thus a visitor here, I none the less agree with your generalization of the theology of Mainstream MJism.

The "Sinai Covenant" has by no means passed away, G-d said it is "for all generations." Yeshua himself said it would not change until heaven and earth themselves have been changed. He has not turned away from the Jewish people and has not replaced them with the "New Covenant" community.

The entire bible is harmonious from beginning to end. The Writings of the Apostles, K'tuvim Natzrim, is useless and meaningless without it's full and life-giving connection to the whole of T'NaKah. What Messianic Judaism does is “remove the middle wall of partition” – one of them being that blank page in your bibles that “separates” the Old Testament from the New.

Blessed be He who has given us His Instructions and who has, from the foundations of the earth, made a way of atonement through the sacrifice of Yeshua HaMoshiakh! (and Yes, I believe Yeshua is HaShem)

Love G-d and Love your neighbor are TORAH :) Thus they can not replace Torah :)

Vayikra (Leviticus)






19:17"'Do not hate your brother in your heart, but rebuke your neighbor frankly, so that you won't carry sin because of him. 18 Don't take vengeance on or bear a grudge against any of your people; rather, love your neighbor as yourself; I am ADONAI. D'varm (Deuteronomy)





6:5and you are to love ADONAI your G-d with all your heart, all your being and all your resources.

11:13"So if you listen carefully to my mitzvot which I am giving you today, to love ADONAI your G-d and serve him with all your heart and all your being; b'Shalomk
Henaynei

[Charles YTK]

Henn,

The problem here is that Yeshua did not say that the TORAH would not pass away. He said that HIS WORDS would not pass away.

Matt 24: [34] Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. [35] Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

He said earlier that: MT 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. [18] For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

And then when he expounded on it in Chapter 24 he said that generation, the one he was speaking to, would see that very fulfillment. He was assuring them that what the Law foretold in shadows would be seen in reality. The law was brought to its fulness, its true meaning.Yeshua gave us the spirit and wrote His words on our hearts. They were not to think that his death meant that the law and prophets were wrong or that he was not who he said he was. It WAS going to be fulfilled actually by his death and resurrection and the new birth by the spirit in us.

The New Covenant does not make us better Torah keepers. That is not it's purpose. Paul said that the law was unable to bring us to the goal, so how could the law BE the goal. The Goal of Torah and of Yeshua's ministry is to give us life in union with God through a new nature born of Gods spirit in us.

The fact that Yeshua is now our high priest and hearlds from Judah and not Levi is proof that the old covenant is ended and the New covenant in force. The fact that we receive the spirit in us, is proof of the new covenant for this was not ever given to all under th eold. It is a provision of the new.

[18] For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. [19] For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

[12] For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. [13] For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar. [14] For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Judah; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

[visionary]

Tish,

I will post this here because your thread is more likely to remain while history shows that mine tend to be deleted.

First off I want you to know that I am not harboring any ill feelings toward you personally. You have gone out of your way to defend and encourage me and to train me in the higher points of refined social behavior. I stated this in my thread before you posted this one, My grievance is with the “Over-lords” whoever they might be, who dictate to this forum what we are as a group and who of it’s members is eligible to post. Most recently P_G lays claim to making this decision. As to whether or not he holds that particular authority legitimately is something for someone else to determine. For me the question is whether or not I am willing to submit myself to that authority and whether I should I compromise the mission that God has given me personally. I feel that I can not. This is why I did not post the PM to me right away but instead questioned the intentions of someone who claims to be Torah observant and then places women in charge over gathering of believing men which is not in keeping with Judaism and it’s Torah and customs. It is almost like listening to a person talk about the terrible evils of booze while they are sipping on a bourbon. There always seems to be a way around the Torah for convenience sake.

Now getting to your letter/ statement to the forum, you said that you are not a Rabbinical type and I believe you, and you say that you mostly agree with mine and Shimshons position. But then you make a decision that is totally against us and the message we preach. And you do so sort of out of the blue and in secret? You say it was your decision and not P_G’s yet he is the one who actually has authority over you and he says it was his doing. Well I am confused. But the bottom line is that our message, among all the opinions given voice in this forum, ours is the one that will not be tolerated. And what is our message? That the Kingdom of God is here, and we are part of it. That Yeshua is Lord, not Moshe or Rambam. That the New Covenant was given and the Sinai covenant is passed away. That the Torah for the Kingdom is not the same as the Torah given for the nation of Israel, similar yes but not identical word for word. All these are at the very heart of the Messianic faith and have been so from the beginning. These are the great truths of the New Testament! But someone here does not want that Gospel preached and would rather return to being “Messiah-less Jews”. Another of the members here has just left Messiah to pursue Rabbinical Judaism.

You have stated that our message was determined to be outside mainstream messianic faith and could not be preached, and yet that is what the Apostles did preach. So let’s look at “Mainstream” Messianics. They have been in a process of turning toward a strict Rabbinical interpretation of the scriptures giving more weight to Talmud than to the teachings of Yeshua. You admit that this is true. Did you realize that some are going so far as to eliminate certain writings from their accepted canon, books like Colossians, Galatians and Hebrews. Why? Because they are too hard to explain in view of their new thrust into Rabbinical Judaism. Some Messianics are now reducing Yeshua from the son of God or God incarnate to just a Rabbi from Nazzareth and a good Torah teacher. Some go even further and say that he was a radical and had some good ideas but also had some bad ideas and that is why he was killed, he broke the Torah and really wasn’t the Messiah at all. Some Messianics say that your salvation is dependent not upon Yeshua but your own perfection of Torah keeping. Is this where CFMJ is heading? Has there been any voice besides mine and Shimshon’s that have resisted these things? Not many and none as adamantly as we.

You say that all of the Bible is Torah, however that is not the belief of everyone. Some see only Moshe as Torah. I believe that all the bible is valid and authoritative. And it all has things to teach us. But one has to be blind to see that things taught in the New Testament are in many place contrary to the teachings of the Old Testament. We live in the Kingdom of Messiah and his teaching must take precedence. You accuse us of making a distinction or separation between the old and the new. Well there is a distinction, unless you think we are still supposed to be making a Pilgrimage to Jerusalem three times a year, and offering animal sacrifices for our sins, and being cleansed by the ashes of the Red Heifer and killing our sons for talking back to us. There most certainly is a difference under the New Covenant. If you step back and look at the overhead logo you will notice that MJ forum exists under the banner of “Christian” Forums and the majority, the vast majority of Christians believe and doctrinally state that the Old testament law is not valid any longer and has been replaced by the two, Love God and Love neighbor. Now if you want to see separation there is a big one and it looms over us all since we are Messianics. Will you sensor the rest of Christian forums for making this distinction? So how big is our distinction in comparison to that which is standard doctrine for the rest of CF? Not much I think. If you read what I wrote about the law of the Kingdom (Torah of Yeshua) you will see that it is in support of the Torah but places an emphasis on the interpretation and greater meaning presented by Messiah Yeshua. That is who we are, Messianics, those who follow the teachings of Messiah Yeshua.

Consider for a moment that a man can be identified in regards to his nationality by two things, the laws he keeps and who he pays taxes to. Your national identity is determined by those two. You can be from any race or ethnic origin, but your identity is based on whose laws you obey. So do we obey the laws that were given to ancient Israel? Then we are Israeli. Or do we follow the laws of Yeshua and are part of his Kingdom? For me it is the latter. I do not stone the adulterer as Israel did. I extend to them compassion and healing and a righteous course. I don’t hate those who revile me, I love them and extend God’s love to them. I don’t bring animal sacrifices nor try to earn my own salvation, I repent of my sins and rely on the finished work of Yeshua to atone for my sins and for his spirit to grow up a new righteousness within me.

What I see here Tish is pressure from someone to get us out of the way of being a front runner in mainstream Messianic faith. There are several denominational churches competing for the title, such as four square and the Baptists who want their flag over us all. And if it happens we will be required to compromise the message that defines who we are. I am not rabbinical and I am not denominational either. Messianic is different, other, separate. We are a unique voice in all the world and carry the life of Yeshua to the world. We are his body. We do not sponsor or promote wars, crusades, inquisitions, holocausts or genocide as mainstream Christianity has done over the centuries. We follow his law and teaching and carry his love within us. We are the last of a faithful line of followers who do what the master says, who sit only at his feet and learn from him. Paul was a disciple of Gamaliel, and later he tossed it aside for the better and true master, Yeshua. Should we now toss Yeshua so that we can sit at the feet of Gamaliel? I don’t think so. But many do. I never guessed that my faithfulness to Yeshua would make me an outcast to his people, but it has. I am leaving because I can not go where someone is taking this forum and these people. It is not the word the Lord gave me to share, and it does not raise up the Messiah who saved me. I am his disciple and a member of his Kingdom through the blood of the New Covenant that he made for us all. I have to remain a faithful servant to him. Yes this forum is less Rabbinical than it was a year ago. This is due in part to your leadership but also to Shimshon, Yod, Talmidim, and myself who have struggled many hours to bring the light of Yeshua back on the scriptures. Shimshon and I openly opposed those leaders before who were leading this Forum deeper and deeper into Talmudic Judaism. We preached the Kingdom, the raising up of the Sukkah of David the Torah of Messiah Yeshua. And now that message is to be excluded from being openly shared here. You have closed the door on us and cut off our mission, tied our hands and gagged our mouths. Why would we stay? There would be no point other than to pass the time and talk with old friends and make new ones. That would be fun, but that is not the mission I was given by my master, who said, “You are not to take the name of any denomination or work of men. They will not accept you in the name of a church. But they will accept you in my name, because you shall speak what I give you to say.” These words were spoken to me by the man who anointed me when I received the spirit and spoken to my heart again later as if they were audible words over the Public address system, some 30 years ago, and they have been true to this day. I will continue to speak where his word is received. Some will be blessed and some will hate it. That is God’s work. Mine is to speak what he puts on my heart.

Charles:thumbsup: Right on ... that is how I see it too.

[visionary]

Thank you Tish for your posts and clarification.

While I am outside Mainstream MJism, and thus a visitor here, I none the less agree with your generalization of the theology of Mainstream MJism.

The "Sinai Covenant" has by no means passed away, G-d said it is "for all generations." Yeshua himself said it would not change until heaven and earth themselves have been changed. He has not turned away from the Jewish people and has not replaced them with the "New Covenant" community.

The entire bible is harmonious from beginning to end. The Writings of the Apostles, K'tuvim Natzrim, is useless and meaningless without it's full and life-giving connection to the whole of T'NaKah. What Messianic Judaism does is “remove the middle wall of partition” – one of them being that blank page in your bibles that “separates” the Old Testament from the New.

Blessed be He who has given us His Instructions and who has, from the foundations of the earth, made a way of atonement through the sacrifice of Yeshua HaMoshiakh! (and Yes, I believe Yeshua is HaShem)

Love G-d and Love your neighbor are TORAH :) Thus they can not replace Torah :)

Vayikra (Leviticus)

19:17"'Do not hate your brother in your heart, but rebuke your neighbor frankly, so that you won't carry sin because of him. 18 Don't take vengeance on or bear a grudge against any of your people; rather, love your neighbor as yourself; I am ADONAI. D'varm (Deuteronomy)

6:5and you are to love ADONAI your G-d with all your heart, all your being and all your resources.

11:13"So if you listen carefully to my mitzvot which I am giving you today, to love ADONAI your G-d and serve him with all your heart and all your being; b'Shalomk
HenayneiIt is like two sides to the curtain between the Holy and Most Holy... To stand on one side is totally different than standing on the other side and yet both are Holy. It is because of the closeness to God that makes the difference, and those who can walk by faith and come boldly to the throne of grace, the freedom of the covenant in the heart and mind, helps shed the rituals for reality... Both you and charles have clarified the difference... I think we should celebrate the fact that so many have come this far. It is because as part of the royal family, and new priesthood of faith that you both have ministered the truth to those in the outer court and world. Love you both :kiss: *Holy kiss on forehead to you both.*

[Wags]

I was going to reply to individual points withint Charles but decided it was probably be wasted time since he has shown he doesn't put much stock in the opinion of women..

Charles, you protest the admisitration of this site because most are women. But what if the women agreed with you and let you do your thing? Would you still be upset with their "authority" over you? What about if the male mods were the ones that put a stop to you "teaching"? Would you then find a different bone to pick with them.? I'm sure you would as you not only questioned the gender of PG, but also HIS authority.

As for your wild, baseless and faceless claims about "mainstream messianics" .... I have yet to see any "mainstream" individual or organization advocate for a more rabinical approach. Nor have any of them said that certain books of the bible should be removed. There is one two-house leader that questioned the book of Hebrews, but he is hardly "mainstream".

I think the staff of this subforum have bent over backward to accomodate your version of the gospel Charles, in fact they are still bending over backwards to let you carry onwith this discussion.

[Charles YTK]

I was going to reply to individual points withint Charles , but decided it was probably be wasted time since he has shown he doesn't put much stock in the opinion of women..

Charles, you protest the admisitration of this site because most are women. But what if the women agreed with you and let you do your thing? Would you still be upset with their "authority" over you? What about if the male mods were the ones that put a stop to you "teaching"? Would you then find a different bone to pick with them.? I'm sure you would as you not only questioned the gender of PG, but also HIS authority.

As for your wild, baseless and faceless claims about "mainstream messianics" .... I have yet to see any "mainstream" individual or organization advocate for a more rabinical approach. Nor have any of them said that certain books of the bible should be removed. There is one two-house leader that questioned the book of Hebrews, but he is hardly "mainstream".

I think the staff of this subforum have bent over backward to accomodate your version of the gospel Charles, in fact they are still bending over backwards to let you carry onwith this discussion.

Wags,



As I have explained several times, the issue was not that women were leading, I have no gripe against women, it was that Torah does not approve of it and for someone to insist on a more stringent approach to Torah should then also step away from having women in leadership positions over men. It was an example of duplicity.

Also if you had read my you would have seen that my complaint is the silencing of God's word given to me for this body of believers. It didn't matter who delivered it. I said from the start that P_G seems to have been the one who ordered it and he admitted that much in the thread that was deleted. So you should get over the fact that I used the women issue as an illustration because that really was not the impetus of the post.

Tish asked that this thread not be used as an occassion for flaming and yet you have taken the perceived advantage of my being scolded and removed from fellowship to write this very negative and condemning post and unfortunately you are not just trying to provoke another fight but have demonstrated your ignorance in the subject at hand.

You mention "My version of the Gospel" but you fail to realize that it is the same Gospel taught by the Lord and the Apostles, the Gospel which provoked the Rabbinate of their time to bring persecutions against them; and it has the same effect on the Rabbinate today, from the Hasidic who wait outside Messianic churchs on Sabbath to spit upon the believers to your very own words above.

[Tishri1]

I am looking and I dont see anywhere where Yeshua, or where any disciple, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, any Gentile disciple any Jewish disciple, anyone has said stop following the Torah it isnt for you anymore...I'm sorry.... BUT that doesnt mean that applications werent altered because of the arrival of the Messiah Yeshua... The fact remains that we see enough events take place in Revelations and other Prophetic books to know that applications will continue to be altered with his second coming as well....Yeshua brought with Him a time of grace, and peace.... and the events of his coming, and his teaching, and insight, has changed our hearts soooo much so, that our identity to Torah teaching is different now....We see it now thru the veil of His flesh, and His resurrected life....That is huge!!!... But we dont throw it out untill the Master Yeshua says it is....

and he didnt ...
and his disciples didnt...



it simply isnt there...

Torah was trasnformed as ABBA said it would be when Messiah came,

Rabbinics have nothing to do with Torah.... it is Man made explanations and fences around Torah, so the fear that Torah causes Rabbinics is unfounded....

Yeshua is the Glory of ABBA , he is Messiah, and ABBA said to listen to him when he comes, so of course, we will in all cases listen to him ,and follow his example leading lives led by the Spirit of God just as he did .....And he honored Torah where applicable, and we follow his footsteps, and do the same, not perfectly, as he even died for our imperfections, and paid the price so we wouldnt have to.... but he knows our hearts to obey.....

Now if we were to go strictly by Yeshua, and by his words. we wouldnt find him telling us to break away from Torah of Moses any place, AND for those who accused Yeshua of teaching against Torah, he had these words....Matthew 5:17-20 17 "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill. 18 "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the Law, until all is accomplished. 19 "Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and so teaches others, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 "For I say to you, that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall not enter the kingdom of heaven.
andLuke 16:16-17 16 "The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John; since then the gospel of the kingdom of God is preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it. 17 "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter of the Law to fail. Yes His application is spiritual, and written on fleshly hearts now, not hearts of stone.... But he never said I am teaching you to set aside Torah or OT at all .....

We may never see all of Torahs application the way it was given, but that doesnt mean it has stopped being useful for teaching and instruction, look at Tals example here....
http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=34547432&postcount=4
this is the perfect example of how we continue applying the Torah to our lives....

writing it on our houses and gates....and hearts.....

[Wags]

This isn't the first time you said you were leaving this forum for good, but you are still here. And I imagine you will be hanging around for some time. So there is no precieved "adavantage" nor have I campaigned for or even suggested your removal.

I call it "your version of the gospel" because despite your protests to the contrary, I don't believe it is the same as the gospel taught by Messiah Yeshua. You appear to believe that you have a corner on "the truth", and on more than one occasion you have vehemently attack those that dared to publicaly disagree with you. Going so far as to call us fools and question our commitment to our Messiah Yeshua and His teachings.

[talmidim]

Dear Sister Wags,

Personal issues aside, perhaps you should reconsider your position on doctrine. If you think that this forum is "bending over backwards" by allowing a literal interpretation of the Gospels, Acts, the Epistles and the Revelation, then what does that say about you?

I thought that was what the Messianic movement was about. Aren't we about establishing the true meaning of the teachings of the Master and His Apostles in the context of the first century?

I am truly sorry that you are offended with the many that believe as we do. We will pray for His shalom for you.

Concerning your latest post, as far as I can see, your opinion is somehow different from Charles. And you haven't even stated any specific doctrinal differences. You just claim that they exist. So what is the doctrinal difference that you claim exists and what scripture do you have to back it up with? What ever they are, I am certain that they are strongly held, so please share them with us. We are all curious to know.

In His Love,


Hmmm, perhaps this discussion would be better taken to "New Testament Torah"

[Wags]

Charles and I have discussed our differences and I have given my understanding of scriptue and he has given his many times. You must have missed those many threads. You also apparently missed the thread where I stated that I had done additional study on the info Charles was presenting and had changed my view point slightly.

I do not have a problem with his presenting a belief that differs with mine. What I do have a problem with is his acting like a school yard bully and insulting those that disagree with him and questioning their faith in Messiah Yeshua.

I say the forum is bending over backwards because they are allowing flagarant violations of CF rules in order for this discussion to take place. If you don't know what those rules might be then I highly suggest you take a moment and read over what you agreed to when you signed up with this forum.

[Charles YTK]

This isn't the first time you said you were leaving this forum for good, but you are still here. And I imagine you will be hanging around for some time. So there is no precieved "adavantage" nor have I campaigned for or even suggested your removal.


Patience. Patience. I will be out of your way very soon. There was some need for closure here due to some possible misunderstandings. Sorry to have disappointed you before. I am well aware that you have been the most outspoken opponent. But you have never been able to use the scriptures to make your point.

[talmidim]

Charles and I have discussed our differences and I have given my understanding of scriptue and he has given his many times. You must have missed those many threads. You also apparently missed the thread where I stated that I had done additional study on the info Charles was presenting and had changed my view point slightly.

I do not have a problem with his presenting a belief that differs with mine. What I do have a problem with is his acting like a school yard bully and insulting those that disagree with him and questioning their faith in Messiah Yeshua.

I say the forum is bending over backwards because they are allowing flagarant violations of CF rules in order for this discussion to take place. If you don't know what those rules might be then I highly suggest you take a moment and read over what you agreed to when you signed up with this forum.Assume I'm stupid and post links or scripture. I can then see for myself what you mean.

[Gwenyfur]

When I first came to CF, I chose a baptist icon, mostly because it was the church I attended with my husband...with just Sabbath teachings from my grandfather on the Sabbath....
Then a Shul was opened an hour from me...and I fell even further in love with Y'shua and His teachings, the Torah is the complete working of Scripture...it is *all* for teaching and reproof...for learning more of Him, and how to serve Him.

When I found that CF had an MJ forum I nearly burst myself...as you'll find if you search my old posts...I was so tickled to find others like me online...who had a love for Torah...ALL of Torah...

And I was impressed with the open-ness and love of "our" little corner of CF...

As you can tell, I'm nearly a stranger here...and this thread's progression is a prime example of why...

No longer are fellowshipping about our love of Y'shua Messiah and His words, teachings and commands to service...

We're arguing like a pack of hyenas over which parts we're to observe and obey...

sad really...especially when so many do try to serve this corner of CF in love...

Tish...you try so hard, and I've yet to see you make a move without prayer...you will continue to do so. You're love for Abba is so great it truly spills out from you and flows freely to those whose lives you touch.



Wags...a soft answer turns away wrath...

[Aviva]

Charles has had one beef with the MJ movement, and as I understand it, he has been around long enough to see this shift in theology away from Yeshua’s teaching and onto Rabbinical theology (existing from the period after the destruction of the Temple after Yeshua, his Disciples, and even Paul)….Now I have only been in this movement 10 years, but even I can see this shift and have heard major teachers express this as well

I love you all, My Mishpacha,
Tishri

Why do you think this shift has happend, Chrles and
Tishri?

[Henaynei]

Henn,

The problem here is that Yeshua did not say that the TORAH would not pass away. He said that HIS WORDS would not pass away.

Matt 24: [34] Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. [35] Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

He said earlier that: MT 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. [18] For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

And then when he expounded on it in Chapter 24 he said that generation, the one he was speaking to, would see that very fulfillment. He was assuring them that what the Law foretold in shadows would be seen in reality. The law was brought to its fullness, its true meaning. Yeshua gave us the spirit and wrote His words on our hearts. They were not to think that his death meant that the law and prophets were wrong or that he was not who he said he was. It WAS going to be fulfilled actually by his death and resurrection and the new birth by the spirit in us. It does seem to me that you deliberately take various scripture and cobble together the theology of which you are already convinced.

First Yeshua is G-d and G-d gave the Torah at Sinai (which He also said then and there would remain for all generations), thus the Law/Torah IS His words, unless you deny Yeshua is HaShem or are willing to suggest that G-d the Father and G-d the Son disagreed with each other and G-d the Son had more authority than G-d the Father to determine what was and was not the way to obey G-d, what was Truth and what "for all generations" means.

Then you quote scripture that says Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. and then say ... he said that generation, the one he was speaking to, would see that very fulfillment. however, "all" was NOT fulfilled, nay and is not so even yet.... neither have heaven and earth passed away - neither of the paired requisites has happened and both must before the Law of G-d is no more.

b'Shalom
Henaynei

[Charles YTK]

Charles is Messianic

I didn't defend my Messianic faith to you because I have been posting at CF since about opening day and a lot of people know me from here and also from other forums and from my own web site. My position is really not hidden. It's right out there where one can read it. But for your sake I will make a disclosure that I hope is sufficient for you.

I am messianic in these and other ways,

I worship in a Messianic way with song and dance
I believe in the special relationship between God and his people Israel, I observe the Sabbath not Sunday and do so in a Messainic way, (when I was in a fellowship, Torah cycle readings, worship, Shema, Oneg, Yeshiva,ect) We observe in a fashion the Moedim, (meaning no one keeps them as prescribed as we make no sacrifices) but we build a Sukkah and eat in it and celebrate the birth of Messiah in a Sukkah and in fulfillment of the festival not Christmas which is only a secular winter festival of recent times adapted to Christians celebration of the birth (which it wasn't), We have Mezuzzah on our door posts. We keep the Passover seder, and understand that Yeshua was crucified on the Passover and raised on first fruits not on the Christian Easter which was a festival of fertility, we observe the week of unleavened bread with gladness and Matzah, observe first fruits as the day of Resurrection of Messiah, Observe Shavuot and remember the Giving of the old and New Covenants on that day, sound the shofar on Yom Teruah and look for the coming of the Lord on that day, make note of Atonement (but do not fast because our atonement is already made through the blood of Yeshua, so there is no need to fast or wearing saccloth, it is finished) I wear Tallit when in prayer and when ministering to others, I read the scriptures from a Hebraic understanding and not according to the Gentile Christian church, I dismiss pretty much out of hat all the teachings of the Church fathers and reject the Doctrines of Mary worship, bead counting, Eucharist, the requirement of membership in a Catholic church or subsidiary church, I refuse praying to the saints, statues Idols and iconography in worship and in the church house, and have no statue of Mary protecting us from the dashboard of our car, nor do we wear St. Christopher medals, We eat a biblical Kosher diet, and recite the Barachas for meals and other occasions, We do not wear Kippah unless in the company of a Jewish brother in his own synagogue where it is required, We try to live by God's word (Torah) and his commandments given to those who are saved by the Blood of Yeshua and as taught by Him and the disciples and the prophets concerning life in the Kingdom regulated by the New Covenant, I am careful not to take upon me Jewish traditions or Rabbinical teachings that are contrary to those I just mentioned and do nothing simply because it is the way the Jews do it, I am not bound by their traditions or national holidays. I do not observe Purim in my home, nor Channucha beyond historical mention and the lighting of the Chanukea as these are national holidays of Judaism and the people of Israel and not biblical Moedim. I fly the Israeli flag over my desk as a sign of support and solidarity for the people and nation of Israel. I defer often to the opinions of the sages on historical matters when it can be shown to be biblically sound and therefore use and study the Talmud, Mishnah, Tanakh in Hebrew with Hebrew commentaries, the Midrash Rabbah, and books of Jewish wisdom, books by Jewish authors. I avoid Christian writers and teachings from the church, Did that for years and already am aware of the many errors in their understanding. No need to re-expose myself to that. I am a Postribulation Rapture advocate which is the clear biblical view verified in both testaments making the scriptures agree and do not believe in Pretrib doctrines which relegate the blunt punishment of mankind upon the Jewish people as many Christian authors do, I do not subscribe to replacementism, or ultra-dispensationalism or other Christian doctrines which divide the body of Messiah and separate the Jews from their own Messiah or make the Jewish people less than who they are.

I am sure there are things that I am forgetting here, but these come to mind. If there is anything that you have a particular concern about then feel free to ask and I will certainly try to answer you and anyone else. As I said, my beliefs are biblical and not Rabbinical and certainly not what one would call Classical Christian. I am probably more Messianic than some and less Rabbinical or Christian)

I wonder how many who profess to be Messianic still take or practice Eucharist as part of their salvation, or hold to a strict Trinitarian view, or swear faith to other Christian doctrines and secretly fear separation from the Roman church will cost ones salvation. Shall we examine each man and woman on the forum now to see who is more Messianic, and who is more Rabbinical or just playing at looking Jewish, or who is really just Christian with no Messianic understanding. Shall we create a form to test everyone to see if they meet the minimum requirements of enough Jewish understanding and rituals to be a member of this forum?

So the issue is now first and foremost that I do not believe that believers today are to keep Torah as it was given to Moshe. My position is that much of that Torah was particular to the nation of Israel and has authority in the lands of Israel and administered under the Levitical priesthood and temple sacrificial service. Torah as believers I believe we are living in the New Covenant and that our approach to and application of Torah is to be according to Yeshua the Messiah, who brought Torah to a new and deeper level which can only be understood and obeyed through a new birth in the spirit. You must be born again or you will not perceive or enter the Kingdom of God. The Torah of God given through Moshe is brought to fullness in the person and life of Yeshua. The Torah which is for the Kingdom is written upon the hearts of men. It is a Torah that is the refinement of that given through Moshe for the nation of Israel. It is a Torah that is for a world wide Kingdom for all men and all nations. We no longer are called to stone the sinner, or to kill our disobedient children, to separate our women and the physically impaired from serving God, or to make blood sacrifices, or to have a Levite intercede for us. We do not have to be a Levite to serve God, but have become a nation of priests through faith and anointing of the spirit. We are not the nation of Israel, we are the body of Christ on earth until he returns for us, his witnesses, his disciples. We were commissioned by Yeshua to make disciples of all men and to preach the Gospel of the Kingdom of God, not the nation of Israel. We were not told to make disciple to Moshe or to bind men to the particulars of Torah as given to Israel, but to bring the righteousness of God to men through a new birth in the spirit through faith in Yeshua the Messiah who then himself changes us from within so that the righteous requirements of the law become part of our new character. Those who walk in the spirit keep the commandments of God, through the new life within them. None of this is contrary to Torah or to “Mainstream Messianic faith” if there is such a thing. It is the realization of Christ in you, the Kingdom of God and body of Messiah through its members living in union with God through faith in God’s Messiah.


Blessings to you all and all Shalominess you can hold.

Charles

[visionary]

I believe that most if not all of us do not follow the Sinai version as strictly as proscribed for a multitude of reasons.

We do not stone people, those when a man comes into the doctor's office to have a two month old child removed off his member, I can not think of a better punishment as we all need as a community the right to throw stones at this offense and offender until he is dead.

I have no problem with understanding that Yeshua has changed the covenant understanding where we need to see the things that He is now in charge of, like the temple services, the High Priest work, and the theocracy of His Kingdom as the King and Ruler, Judge over all.

So I guess I can not stone that man after all but give it into the Lord's hands to handle. The Lord has asked me for my part not only to lay the stone down, but to forgive the offender. All I can say because this just happened, is it still burns me up. I have some gratification in knowing that the doctor who he went to beat the crap out of him before the cops came to take him away.

[talmidim]

What we want Tish, is to be able to discuss Torah observance as taught by Yeshua and His disciples. I see no reason to invite non-Messianics into the discussion, do you?

But since Charles thread has been closed and Wags thread has been [Open]ed, that is exactly what is occurring.

Just an observation...

[stone]

What we want Tish, is to be able to discuss Torah observance as taught by Yeshua and His disciples.


and this is what is done often. No one has ever tried to take that away.

[Wags]

What we want Tish, is to be able to discuss Torah observance as taught by Yeshua and His disciples. I see no reason to invite non-Messianics into the discussion, do you?

But since Charles thread has been closed and Wags thread has been [Open]ed, that is exactly what is occurring.

Just an observation...

My thread was simply an attempt to get at an issue that was raised without derailing another thread. I was and am very concerned about certain accusations. My thread was my own doing and I didn't consult with anyone prior to opening it.

[stone]

Why do you think this shift has happend, Chrles and
Tishri?

I'll answer this.

There is no shift. Why would someone preach over and over and so intensely about something that just does not exist?

Perhaps you can provide an example of myself teaching Talmud over Y-shua?

[debi b]

Just so you know I am gonna say right up front this is not directed at anyone ;) This is part of what I am studying this week and I would like to share it:

Proverbs 26
3 A whip for the horse,
A bridle for the donkey,
And a rod for the fool's back.
4 Do not answer a fool according to his folly,
Lest you also be like him.
5 Answer a fool according to his folly,
Lest he be wise in his own eyes.
6 He who sends a message by the hand of a fool
Cuts off his own feet and drinks violence.
7 Like the legs of the lame that hang limp
Is a proverb in the mouth of fools.
8 Like one who binds a stone in a sling
Is he who gives honor to a fool.
9 Like a thorn that goes into the hand of a drunkard
Is a proverb in the mouth of fools.
10 The great God who formed everything
Gives the fool his hire and the transgressor his wages.
11 As a dog returns to his own vomit,
So a fool repeats his folly.
12 Do you see a man wise in his own eyes?
There is more hope for a fool than for him.

On and on you read and a case is being built about the "fool". His condition is dire. Can you feel it? Then we get a one two punch - his condition is BETTER than an arogant person. It hit me....

Proverbs 26
20 Where there is no wood, the fire goes out;
And where there is no complainer, strife ceases.
21 As charcoal is to burning coals, and wood to fire,
So is a contentious man to kindle strife.
22 The words of a complainer are like tasty trifles,
And they go down into the inmost body.

What is being translated as "tasty trifles" is not a noun it is a verb that gives the sense of something that this type of person eats up eagerly.

Perhaps inappropriate here, perhaps not....

[talmidim]

Charles is Messianic

I didn't defend my Messianic faith to you because I have been posting at CF since about opening day and a lot of people know me from here and also from other forums and from my own web site. My position is really not hidden. It's right out there where one can read it. But for your sake I will make a disclosure that I hope is sufficient for you.

I am messianic in these and other ways,

I worship in a Messianic way with song and dance
I believe in the special relationship between God and his people Israel, I observe the Sabbath not Sunday and do so in a Messainic way, (when I was in a fellowship, Torah cycle readings, worship, Shema, Oneg, Yeshiva,ect) We observe in a fashion the Moedim, (meaning no one keeps them as prescribed as we make no sacrifices) but we build a Sukkah and eat in it and celebrate the birth of Messiah in a Sukkah and in fulfillment of the festival not Christmas which is only a secular winter festival of recent times adapted to Christians celebration of the birth (which it wasn't), We have Mezuzzah on our door posts. We keep the Passover seder, and understand that Yeshua was crucified on the Passover and raised on first fruits not on the Christian Easter which was a festival of fertility, we observe the week of unleavened bread with gladness and Matzah, observe first fruits as the day of Resurrection of Messiah, Observe Shavuot and remember the Giving of the old and New Covenants on that day, sound the shofar on Yom Teruah and look for the coming of the Lord on that day, make note of Atonement (but do not fast because our atonement is already made through the blood of Yeshua, so there is no need to fast or wearing saccloth, it is finished) I wear Tallit when in prayer and when ministering to others, I read the scriptures from a Hebraic understanding and not according to the Gentile Christian church, I dismiss pretty much out of hat all the teachings of the Church fathers and reject the Doctrines of Mary worship, bead counting, Eucharist, the requirement of membership in a Catholic church or subsidiary church, I refuse praying to the saints, statues Idols and iconography in worship and in the church house, and have no statue of Mary protecting us from the dashboard of our car, nor do we wear St. Christopher medals, We eat a biblical Kosher diet, and recite the Barachas for meals and other occasions, We do not wear Kippah unless in the company of a Jewish brother in his own synagogue where it is required, We try to live by God's word (Torah) and his commandments given to those who are saved by the Blood of Yeshua and as taught by Him and the disciples and the prophets concerning life in the Kingdom regulated by the New Covenant, I am careful not to take upon me Jewish traditions or Rabbinical teachings that are contrary to those I just mentioned and do nothing simply because it is the way the Jews do it, I am not bound by their traditions or national holidays. I do not observe Purim in my home, nor Channucha beyond historical mention and the lighting of the Chanukea as these are national holidays of Judaism and the people of Israel and not biblical Moedim. I fly the Israeli flag over my desk as a sign of support and solidarity for the people and nation of Israel. I defer often to the opinions of the sages on historical matters when it can be shown to be biblically sound and therefore use and study the Talmud, Mishnah, Tanakh in Hebrew with Hebrew commentaries, the Midrash Rabbah, and books of Jewish wisdom, books by Jewish authors. I avoid Christian writers and teachings from the church, Did that for years and already am aware of the many errors in their understanding. No need to re-expose myself to that. I am a Postribulation Rapture advocate which is the clear biblical view verified in both testaments making the scriptures agree and do not believe in Pretrib doctrines which relegate the blunt punishment of mankind upon the Jewish people as many Christian authors do, I do not subscribe to replacementism, or ultra-dispensationalism or other Christian doctrines which divide the body of Messiah and separate the Jews from their own Messiah or make the Jewish people less than who they are.

I am sure there are things that I am forgetting here, but these come to mind. If there is anything that you have a particular concern about then feel free to ask and I will certainly try to answer you and anyone else. As I said, my beliefs are biblical and not Rabbinical and certainly not what one would call Classical Christian. I am probably more Messianic than some and less Rabbinical or Christian)

I wonder how many who profess to be Messianic still take or practice Eucharist as part of their salvation, or hold to a strict Trinitarian view, or swear faith to other Christian doctrines and secretly fear separation from the Roman church will cost ones salvation. Shall we examine each man and woman on the forum now to see who is more Messianic, and who is more Rabbinical or just playing at looking Jewish, or who is really just Christian with no Messianic understanding. Shall we create a form to test everyone to see if they meet the minimum requirements of enough Jewish understanding and rituals to be a member of this forum?

So the issue is now first and foremost that I do not believe that believers today are to keep Torah as it was given to Moshe. My position is that much of that Torah was particular to the nation of Israel and has authority in the lands of Israel and administered under the Levitical priesthood and temple sacrificial service. Torah as believers I believe we are living in the New Covenant and that our approach to and application of Torah is to be according to Yeshua the Messiah, who brought Torah to a new and deeper level which can only be understood and obeyed through a new birth in the spirit. You must be born again or you will not perceive or enter the Kingdom of God. The Torah of God given through Moshe is brought to fullness in the person and life of Yeshua. The Torah which is for the Kingdom is written upon the hearts of men. It is a Torah that is the refinement of that given through Moshe for the nation of Israel. It is a Torah that is for a world wide Kingdom for all men and all nations. We no longer are called to stone the sinner, or to kill our disobedient children, to separate our women and the physically impaired from serving God, or to make blood sacrifices, or to have a Levite intercede for us. We do not have to be a Levite to serve God, but have become a nation of priests through faith and anointing of the spirit. We are not the nation of Israel, we are the body of Christ on earth until he returns for us, his witnesses, his disciples. We were commissioned by Yeshua to make disciples of all men and to preach the Gospel of the Kingdom of God, not the nation of Israel. We were not told to make disciple to Moshe or to bind men to the particulars of Torah as given to Israel, but to bring the righteousness of God to men through a new birth in the spirit through faith in Yeshua the Messiah who then himself changes us from within so that the righteous requirements of the law become part of our new character. Those who walk in the spirit keep the commandments of God, through the new life within them. None of this is contrary to Torah or to “Mainstream Messianic faith” if there is such a thing. It is the realization of Christ in you, the Kingdom of God and body of Messiah through its members living in union with God through faith in God’s Messiah.


Blessings to you all and all Shalominess you can hold.

CharlesHow many of you actually read what was posted here? This is the crux and topic of this thread.

[torahgrandma]

Some of Charles ideas are a little out of the norm in some ways (in my opinion), but he puts a lot of time into his posts and really writes them well. Charles and I have disagreed a few times, but I would never want to see him silenced. At least he makes you think.

[torahgrandma]

I personally feel that Contra is the most balanced mod on this forum, and he is quite intelligent and well spoken.

[stone]

How many of you actually read what was posted here? This is the crux and topic of this thread.


i disagree, Charles is not the focus here

[Tishri1]

Charles is Messianic

I didn't defend my Messianic faith to you because I have been posting at CF since about opening day and a lot of people know me from here and also from other forums and from my own web site. My position is really not hidden. It's right out there where one can read it. But for your sake I will make a disclosure that I hope is sufficient for you.

I am messianic in these and other ways,

I worship in a Messianic way with song and dance
I believe in the special relationship between God and his people Israel, I observe the Sabbath not Sunday and do so in a Messainic way, (when I was in a fellowship, Torah cycle readings, worship, Shema, Oneg, Yeshiva,ect) We observe in a fashion the Moedim, (meaning no one keeps them as prescribed as we make no sacrifices) but we build a Sukkah and eat in it and celebrate the birth of Messiah in a Sukkah and in fulfillment of the festival not Christmas which is only a secular winter festival of recent times adapted to Christians celebration of the birth (which it wasn't), We have Mezuzzah on our door posts. We keep the Passover seder, and understand that Yeshua was crucified on the Passover and raised on first fruits not on the Christian Easter which was a festival of fertility, we observe the week of unleavened bread with gladness and Matzah, observe first fruits as the day of Resurrection of Messiah, Observe Shavuot and remember the Giving of the old and New Covenants on that day, sound the shofar on Yom Teruah and look for the coming of the Lord on that day, make note of Atonement (but do not fast because our atonement is already made through the blood of Yeshua, so there is no need to fast or wearing saccloth, it is finished) I wear Tallit when in prayer and when ministering to others, I read the scriptures from a Hebraic understanding and not according to the Gentile Christian church, I dismiss pretty much out of hat all the teachings of the Church fathers and reject the Doctrines of Mary worship, bead counting, Eucharist, the requirement of membership in a Catholic church or subsidiary church, I refuse praying to the saints, statues Idols and iconography in worship and in the church house, and have no statue of Mary protecting us from the dashboard of our car, nor do we wear St. Christopher medals, We eat a biblical Kosher diet, and recite the Barachas for meals and other occasions, We do not wear Kippah unless in the company of a Jewish brother in his own synagogue where it is required, We try to live by God's word (Torah) and his commandments given to those who are saved by the Blood of Yeshua and as taught by Him and the disciples and the prophets concerning life in the Kingdom regulated by the New Covenant, I am careful not to take upon me Jewish traditions or Rabbinical teachings that are contrary to those I just mentioned and do nothing simply because it is the way the Jews do it, I am not bound by their traditions or national holidays. I do not observe Purim in my home, nor Channucha beyond historical mention and the lighting of the Chanukea as these are national holidays of Judaism and the people of Israel and not biblical Moedim. I fly the Israeli flag over my desk as a sign of support and solidarity for the people and nation of Israel. I defer often to the opinions of the sages on historical matters when it can be shown to be biblically sound and therefore use and study the Talmud, Mishnah, Tanakh in Hebrew with Hebrew commentaries, the Midrash Rabbah, and books of Jewish wisdom, books by Jewish authors. I avoid Christian writers and teachings from the church, Did that for years and already am aware of the many errors in their understanding. No need to re-expose myself to that. I am a Postribulation Rapture advocate which is the clear biblical view verified in both testaments making the scriptures agree and do not believe in Pretrib doctrines which relegate the blunt punishment of mankind upon the Jewish people as many Christian authors do, I do not subscribe to replacementism, or ultra-dispensationalism or other Christian doctrines which divide the body of Messiah and separate the Jews from their own Messiah or make the Jewish people less than who they are.

I am sure there are things that I am forgetting here, but these come to mind. If there is anything that you have a particular concern about then feel free to ask and I will certainly try to answer you and anyone else. As I said, my beliefs are biblical and not Rabbinical and certainly not what one would call Classical Christian. I am probably more Messianic than some and less Rabbinical or Christian)

I wonder how many who profess to be Messianic still take or practice Eucharist as part of their salvation, or hold to a strict Trinitarian view, or swear faith to other Christian doctrines and secretly fear separation from the Roman church will cost ones salvation. Shall we examine each man and woman on the forum now to see who is more Messianic, and who is more Rabbinical or just playing at looking Jewish, or who is really just Christian with no Messianic understanding. Shall we create a form to test everyone to see if they meet the minimum requirements of enough Jewish understanding and rituals to be a member of this forum?

So the issue is now first and foremost that I do not believe that believers today are to keep Torah as it was given to Moshe. My position is that much of that Torah was particular to the nation of Israel and has authority in the lands of Israel and administered under the Levitical priesthood and temple sacrificial service. Torah as believers I believe we are living in the New Covenant and that our approach to and application of Torah is to be according to Yeshua the Messiah, who brought Torah to a new and deeper level which can only be understood and obeyed through a new birth in the spirit. You must be born again or you will not perceive or enter the Kingdom of God. The Torah of God given through Moshe is brought to fullness in the person and life of Yeshua. The Torah which is for the Kingdom is written upon the hearts of men. It is a Torah that is the refinement of that given through Moshe for the nation of Israel. It is a Torah that is for a world wide Kingdom for all men and all nations. We no longer are called to stone the sinner, or to kill our disobedient children, to separate our women and the physically impaired from serving God, or to make blood sacrifices, or to have a Levite intercede for us. We do not have to be a Levite to serve God, but have become a nation of priests through faith and anointing of the spirit. We are not the nation of Israel, we are the body of Christ on earth until he returns for us, his witnesses, his disciples. We were commissioned by Yeshua to make disciples of all men and to preach the Gospel of the Kingdom of God, not the nation of Israel. We were not told to make disciple to Moshe or to bind men to the particulars of Torah as given to Israel, but to bring the righteousness of God to men through a new birth in the spirit through faith in Yeshua the Messiah who then himself changes us from within so that the righteous requirements of the law become part of our new character. Those who walk in the spirit keep the commandments of God, through the new life within them. None of this is contrary to Torah or to “Mainstream Messianic faith” if there is such a thing. It is the realization of Christ in you, the Kingdom of God and body of Messiah through its members living in union with God through faith in God’s Messiah.


Blessings to you all and all Shalominess you can hold.

CharlesI will let you all count the flames in the first quote and hopefully see what I mean..... you know THAT is what I am tired of, that is what we let go of to become united and that is what this issue is all about as I have said before in private and public (now since it is out there) it is not what you say that is wrong BUT how you say it, and How you say it is what offends and misrepresents the majority view in MJ circles.....What you say if said in a different way would be fine, the way you say it though is causing a divide in here that is totally not nessessary, I would NOT be concerned about the content if I saw it presented in a way that didnt cause division and misrepresent the people here who are being divided...you both know that about me and are SPINNING this way out of context...I dont even think this subject is the same one any more...I am very sad that this happened*Tish goes off to pray some more while she waits for this post to go thru someones Spin cycle too:sigh:


sorry but many missed the whole point .the original idea in here is that we should not post in a way that misrepresents our members in CF AND MJ and we should not try to present teaching that "appears" and let me say that again and qualify it too"appears because of the word usage even" to say something contrary to MJ doctrine....lets me stress again APPEARS because as I have said before this ONE single teaching I am refering to is only about presenting what we all agree with, in a way we, as MJers, are not going to become offended by........When you say it in a different way it come out fine but when you say it the way its been said for the last year or so now it was comeing off offending and devalueing a major MJ belief .....MJs are Torah Observant, Charles is Torah Observant and we all can agree with his words when he isnt putting people down and separating them into this camp and that camp and defining it in a way that gives the appearance that Torah needs a new name...we all see Torah as Torah and THAT is MJ....again let me repeat we are talking specifically about the WAY something is presented, and yes we all have responsibilities here in CF to lay down some of our own wants or to alter them , or what ever to achieve unity here



What we want Tish, is to be able to discuss Torah observance as taught by Yeshua and His disciples. I see no reason to invite non-Messianics into the discussion, do you?

But since Charles thread has been closed and Wags thread has been [Open]ed, that is exactly what is occurring.

Just an observation...
Charles thread is open and I havent seen Wags thread.....Tal has said before that he knows what I mean and that this is not as big an issue as many have made it out to be....I admit I let it spin away from me trying to defend point by point ...it aint working so I will bow out now and let you guys deside how this will continue...there is a Pre poll thread for YOU and I suggest you take advantage of it as it may determine how we define MJ from here on out....

PS please dont hurt each other or other members in CF everyone (not saying you will but I refuse to be pulled into the debate anymore I have said it as plainly as I can) we need to find a place in here where we can finally bring some peace to both sides of the issue....Anyone and everyone I have offended in this whole mess.....I am sorry and ask you to forgive me.....I have learned it is better to stay off the defence as it did no good for any of you, from now on I will stick to the original intent and that is where I will stay:hug:

[talmidim]

No apology needed Tish. :D
We understand that you are just trying to do what you believe is right.:thumbsup:
And we all love you. :hug:
And we all believe that we are right, no matter what!:preach:

We'll try not to get any blood on the carpet, OK? :cool:

[Mela'h]

I will let you all count the flames in the first quote and hopefully see what I mean..... I read through Charles quote a few time Tish and I honestly can't find one flame in context of this being posted in the MJ forum....Now, if it was posted say in the Catholic forum, yes, I would agree with you. And I don't see any flames perhaps because I am just not a defensive person, I do not feel the need to defend my position or belief - I honestly don't think that is part of my responsibility in being a follower of Yeshua, my part is to live as faithfully and genuinely in the gift of faith my Abba has given me and hopefully in doing so, some will witness the light of Messiah inside of me ..... I know you well enough Tish to know that you have a heart of love. I have witnessed it and been on the receiving end of it but things are wrong here. The censorship, the box that is being erected, good people not being able to voice their own hearts - the "my way or the highway" mentality.....oh, I must say it hurts my heart.

We all need to back down, let go of the defensiveness and embrace our differences in respect and love and we need to keep all in context, in context of this forum, in context of who we are and who we profess to follow and who's heart and life we all want to emulate.http://www3.christianforums.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Tishri1]

thats the sad part Meh, it wasnt me who brought up sensureship, I'm not about that , that was appart of the spin on my words and trying to defend it I got caught up in it too....

I will say it again folks ...no censureship

[Henaynei]

Henn,

The problem here is that Yeshua did not say that the TORAH would not pass away. He said that HIS WORDS would not pass away. Yeshua IS HaShem. The words of HaShem ARE Torah.

[talmidim]

Yeshua IS HaShem. The words of HaShem ARE Torah.Yes Dear, but not JUST Torah. He taught through His prophets and through His ministry on earth that there would be a New Covenant, remember?

[Charles YTK]

Yes Dear, but not JUST Torah. He taught through His prophets and through His ministry on earth that there would be a New Covenant, remember?
Yes,,, and here is how the New Covenant Torah works; God does not change, Yet Abraham kept the laws and ordinances of God, However he did not keep the same laws and ordinances as those given to Moshe. The Sinai covenant had a new and difernt Torah than What had been hown to Abraham. This is true for those in the New Covenant as well.

This is how the New Covenant Torah looks:
A Rich young ruler comes to Yeshua and asks what things he must do to inherit eternal life. Yeshua quotes to him the list of the ten commands. The young ruler says, "All these I have done since my youth." Now Yeshua changes it up and says, "You have done well, now go and sell all you own and give it to the poor."
Torah does not make this demand. Yeshua ses what is in the man's heart that prevents him from coming into the fulness of what God has for him, his lust and love of money and power, and so Yeshua tells him to be separated from that which binds his heart to the world. Note that Yeshua has added a new commandment, but it is only for this man and any who can identify with him.

Another clear example is the Sermon on the mount. Over and over Yeshua uses the format, "You have heard from ancient times XXXXX but I say to you that XXXX." He takes the ten commandments and changes it up. Torah says "do not commit murder, but I say if you have anger in your heart for another without cause you have already comitted murder in your heart. Do not commit adultery, but I say if you look upon a woman to lust after her, you have already commited adultery in your heat and are guilty."

Now some of you will say, "Yes but this was the intent of the Torah from the start." And I agree, but it was not clear to the Jews before Yeshua taught it. YOU see it now today because you have Yeshua's teaching and his spirit, but the ancient Jews did not have this revelation. They were living under the old Covenant and it's Torah given at Sinai. They have the law, and they approached it legalistically. YOUR advantage to the greater Torah comes through the New Covenant Torah written on your heart.

In both of these examples the spirit living in you today as one saved through the blood of Messiah and receiving his new life in you, is what points out to you the deeper meaning of the Torah given to Moshe. It is only because of that New Covenant Torah of the spirit on your heart that you can see these things and apply them to yourself.

It happens for every person from their own hearts by the spirit, custom fit to them. I may not have a problem with money and power, and so the spirit does not convict me of that. I may not be angry at people withut cause, so the spirit does not convict me of that either. But maybe I have an eye for beautiful women, and so the spirit starts working on me in that area of my life, correcting me, convicting me, until I am defeated in the flesh and the fleshy part dies so that the new man of the spirit can grow up in his place. This is the New Covenant Torah, or the Torah of Yeshua. And if you are saved and filled with his spirit, then you are members of this New Covenant and have received the Torah of Yeshua on your heart.

One more quick example because it is relivant to several conversations here; When I read, you shall not seeth a kid in it's mothers milk, I see it among the regulations for offering sacrifices and as a command to refrain from cruelty in sacrifices, unlike the Pagans who made their sacrifices suffer as much as possible taking their gods vengence upon th einnocent animal. But the Talmudic teaching is not to eat dairy and meat together. In my heart I do not feel any conviction about mixing meat and dairy. The Torah of my heart agree with the Torah as it was written but does not agree with the Rabbis interpretation. Therefore I am free to have cheese on my burger and meat on my Pizza. For me the teaching of scripture and the Torah of the heart have authority over the teachings of the Rabbinate.

For someone else, they may feel differently about this and feel a conviction about meat and dairy. Maybe God is using this to help them grow in some fashion. So for their sake, I can agree with their keeping this so long as it is not forced upon me or others as if it was a commandment from God. And I will refain from eating meat and dairy together in their presence, so that I do not cause them to stumble or have difficulty. On the other hand, when it is being taught by some preachers that God demands this and it is key to my living a spirit filled life, then I will speak out and resist this, just as Paul did to the Galatians who had been pressured to keep all the Rabbinical laws and to even convert to become Jews in order to be saved which placed the emphasis of salvation upon ethnicity and ethnic religious traditions rather than faith in God through his Messiah.

This is how I see the New Covennt Torah of Yeshua working in his body, taking the Torah of Moshe, stepping it up and applying it to the heart individually in a way that helps us each to grow up into the image of Yeshua himself.

I apologize in advance if this stirs up more problems rather than resolving them as I intend.

Charles

[visionary]

Yes,,, and here is how the New Covenant Torah works; God does not change, Yet Abraham kept the laws and ordinances of God, However he did not keep the same laws and ordinances as those given to Moshe. The Sinai covenant had a new and difernt Torah than What had been hown to Abraham. This is true for those in the New Covenant as well.

This is how the New Covenant Torah looks:
A Rich young ruler comes to Yeshua and asks what things he must do to inherit eternal life. Yeshua quotes to him the list of the ten commands. The young ruler says, "All these I have done since my youth." Now Yeshua changes it up and says, "You have done well, now go and sell all you own and give it to the poor."
Torah does not make this demand. Yeshua ses what is in the man's heart that prevents him from coming into the fulness of what God has for him, his lust and love of money and power, and so Yeshua tells him to be separated from that which binds his heart to the world. Note that Yeshua has added a new commandment, but it is only for this man and any who can identify with him.

Another clear example is the Sermon on the mount. Over and over Yeshua uses the format, "You have heard from ancient times XXXXX but I say to you that XXXX." He takes the ten commandments and changes it up. Torah says "do not commit murder, but I say if you have anger in your heart for another without cause you have already comitted murder in your heart. Do not commit adultery, but I say if you look upon a woman to lust after her, you have already commited adultery in your heat and are guilty."

Now some of you will say, "Yes but this was the intent of the Torah from the start." And I agree, but it was not clear to the Jews before Yeshua taught it. YOU see it now today because you have Yeshua's teaching and his spirit, but the ancient Jews did not have this revelation. They were living under the old Covenant and it's Torah given at Sinai. They have the law, and they approached it legalistically. YOUR advantage to the greater Torah comes through the New Covenant Torah written on your heart.

In both of these examples the spirit living in you today as one saved through the blood of Messiah and receiving his new life in you, is what points out to you the deeper meaning of the Torah given to Moshe. It is only because of that New Covenant Torah of the spirit on your heart that you can see these things and apply them to yourself.

It happens for every person from their own hearts by the spirit, custom fit to them. I may not have a problem with money and power, and so the spirit does not convict me of that. I may not be angry at people withut cause, so the spirit does not convict me of that either. But maybe I have an eye for beautiful women, and so the spirit starts working on me in that area of my life, correcting me, convicting me, until I am defeated in the flesh and the fleshy part dies so that the new man of the spirit can grow up in his place. This is the New Covenant Torah, or the Torah of Yeshua. And if you are saved and filled with his spirit, then you are members of this New Covenant and have received the Torah of Yeshua on your heart.

One more quick example because it is relivant to several conversations here; When I read, you shall not seeth a kid in it's mothers milk, I see it among the regulations for offering sacrifices and as a command to refrain from cruelty in sacrifices, unlike the Pagans who made their sacrifices suffer as much as possible taking their gods vengence upon th einnocent animal. But the Talmudic teaching is not to eat dairy and meat together. In my heart I do not feel any conviction about mixing meat and dairy. The Torah of my heart agree with the Torah as it was written but does not agree with the Rabbis interpretation. Therefore I am free to have cheese on my burger and meat on my Pizza. For me the teaching of scripture and the Torah of the heart have authority over the teachings of the Rabbinate.

For someone else, they may feel differently about this and feel a conviction about meat and dairy. Maybe God is using this to help them grow in some fashion. So for their sake, I can agree with their keeping this so long as it is not forced upon me or others as if it was a commandment from God. And I will refain from eating meat and dairy together in their presence, so that I do not cause them to stumble or have difficulty. On the other hand, when it is being taught by some preachers that God demands this and it is key to my living a spirit filled life, then I will speak out and resist this, just as Paul did to the Galatians who had been pressured to keep all the Rabbinical laws and to even convert to become Jews in order to be saved which placed the emphasis of salvation upon ethnicity and ethnic religious traditions rather than faith in God through his Messiah.

This is how I see the New Covennt Torah of Yeshua working in his body, taking the Torah of Moshe, stepping it up and applying it to the heart individually in a way that helps us each to grow up into the image of Yeshua himself.

I apologize in advance if this stirs up more problems rather than resolving them as I intend.

CharlesI agree and in the same spirit I believe we all should follow the Torah in light of the Holy Spirit as Yeshua instructed us to.

[Wags]

Since scripture doesn't say what laws and ordiences Abraham kept - how can you so confidently state that they were different from what was given at Sinai?

We know from scritpure that they already knew about Shabbat and other laws before Sinai. Exodus 16:28 ADONAI said to Moshe, "How long will you refuse to observe my mitzvot and teachings?


On the other hand, when it is being taught by some preachers that God demands this and it is key to my living a spirit filled life,


What preachers are preaching this? :confused: Is this yet another faceless accusation or can you actually provide names to back up this claim?

[Charles YTK]

Since scripture doesn't say what laws and ordiences Abraham kept - how can you so confidently state that they were different from what was given at Sinai?

Because the record of Abraham and how he lived. We know that when the "Lord" came to him he served him dairy and meat together, so he wasn't practicing anything that stood as a foundation for Rabbinical law. He gave a tithe to Melchezidek who was a Gentile and not a levite but may have been a pre-incarnation of Yeshua, and there was no temple system at all. This means that over 1/2 or more of the Torah was not being observed.


We know from scritpure that they already knew about Shabbat and other laws before Sinai. Exodus 16:28 ADONAI said to Moshe, "How long will you refuse to observe my mitzvot and teachings?

There is no mention of observing the sabbath until Moshe and the Exodus. It is mentioned in reference to the giving of Manna. In egypt they had no day of rest at all. There is no evidence of it's being observed in the family of Jacob either that I recall, someone may point it out f I am wrong here. God, in the creation epic, sanctified the 7th day for himself to appreciate what he had created, but he does not pass this observance on to Adam. Abraham offered sacrifices to God yet this was a custom from Pagan cultures including the people of Sumer from which he came. There was no appointed times, no appointed sacrifices until Sinai.




What preachers are preaching this? :confused: Is this yet another faceless accusation or can you actually provide names to back up this claim?
I have run into a number of them in my travels. Some insisting on Tallit, or Kippah, or lighting the Sabbath candles or observing traditional days like Purim or Channucha, which are national holidays and not Moedim, or the New moon days and such. You can do your own research. As Talmidim said before, if we were to present you with any evidence you would discount it in some way. I will not waist my time with this.

[Sephania]

Abraham offered sacrifices to God yet this was a custom from Pagan cultures including the people of Sumer from which he came. There was no appointed times, no appointed sacrifices until Sinai.

If I may Charles, there were sacrifices before there were pagans. The first two children on earth, Cain and Abel. Abel knew to bring the first of his flock, now some can say that it was by happenstance, OK, but how did he also know to bring the fat as well? That is strickly the Almightys law, not any pagan law I am aware of.

And of Cain? neither he nor his sacrifice was found acceptable from the L-RD .

I don't believe that HaShem would expect him to know better if he had no idea that you should give the first and the best of your crop.

He killed his brother because his brother was obedient and was accepted by the L-RD.

There was a certain time they did this and they did it together so the knowledge must have been there.

I think it all stems back to the garden, our parents Adam and Eve, ate from a tree called Knowledge of Good and evil.

When you ate from this your eyes were opened and you now bore the burden of this knowledge and with that knowledge comes responsibility. You now know the difference between right and wrong, what you should do and shouldn't do.

Also as far as concerns the Sabbath, when someone tells you to remember something, it isn't about something you never knew about, but something you did, just don't put it out of your mind. The word is first used after the flood, and it is G-d himself who has the best memory of all, is speaking of remembering his covenant when he sees the bow in the sky.

They may not have practices this in Egypt, because they could not, but I am sure there was something handed down from the Patriarches.

What is important though is belief through trust, through faith, like Abraham. And that was always the way.

I understand your need to divided the Torahs, not in intend, but in explanation, but we also must not discount everything the sages determined. I agree no one should be forced to follow anything, if they are there is no love there and they will become candidates for Yeshua's proclomation of 'I never knew you'.

It is still proclaimed throughout the NC writings that we still are to be separate, set apart from the world and many of the ordinances where for just such a matter. What the world does is wrong because its leader is in direct opposition to G-d, we are to be in the world but not of it. The Sages only looked to keep that from being tresspassed. It is each individual that needs to realize that and ask for wisdom from the Spirit to make that distinction.

I believe as you do Charles that there was to be no separation of dairy and meat, dairy and fowl even, fowl were created before anything that gave milk was! It was a fence, but a fence that grew to more than Texas size! and I believe today imparts 50% of the yoke that those that follow Traditional Judaism are burdened down with.

[Charles YTK]

Zayit,

I have no difficulty with what you are saying. I think God inspired men to do some things like sacrifices. All I was saying is that it was not a codefied law before the giving of the Sinai covenant. For Wags to imply that Abraham kept the same laws as were later presented in the Sinai Torah is stretching too far in my opinion. In other words, Abraham was told to offer his son as a burt offering, and Abraham understood what that meant and so did Isaac, and they were obedient to it. But that was not keeping the Moedim of Yom Kippur. It was a forunner of the atonement sacrifice of Yeshua, all things that were not yet revealed to Abraham or anyone.

Noach had an understanding of clean and unclean at least in regads to Sacrifices. It is not clear whether this applied to his own consumption of meat. There was an understanding of clean and unclean but not much indication of what we would call Kosher law and certainly not as practiced by the Orthodox Jews. After the Flood noah is told to eat anything he wants, from all animals with the same freedom that he had previously eaten from the herbs of the plants.

[Sephania]

Yes, you are correct, it was not codified, nor written down, but the object of Torah is to reveal sin, in a direct manner. I see the L-RD teaching this with Cain and Abel ( mosting Cain as Abel was gone) and then afterwards He saw a need for it to be given to one specific people, to be a light to the rest. Torah tells us what is right to do and what is not right to do. It is plain and simple it is right there, no need to go anywhere off earth to get this knowledge.

Yeshua when he came took this up again, the direct teaching.

So it went from Coming from G-d ( pre-incarnate Yeshua) speaking with those like Cain and Noach and such to passing this to a chosen people to emulate in the world to back to Yeshua when he came to set interpretations straight about these laws. So you have Oral first , then written, then oral again as Yeshua gave true meaning to them.

We do know that one man followed these laws properly before the law went from oral to written and that was Enoch, for it is written, he 'walked with G-d'. Walking or walked comes from halak, which we get halacha from. You are either walking with G-d or walking away from him. Enoch was apparently walking in such harmony and obedience to G-d that he took him!

Hey I love the new spell check in the Quick reply, when did that happen? :thumbsup: ( doesn't help when you spell right but use the wrong word though! ;) )

[Wags]

[/font]
[b] [FONT=Comic Sans MS]I have run into a number of them in my travels. Some insisting on Tallit, or Kippah, or lighting the Sabbath candles or observing traditional days like Purim or Channucha, which are national holidays and not Moedim, or the New moon days and such. You can do your own research. As Talmidim said before, if we were to present you with any evidence you would discount it in some way. I will not waist my time with this.

I am very aware of the teachings of "mainstream" messianic leaders, and I have never heard them teach anything of the sort. Since you are unable to provide names, let alone any other proof - well the conclusion must be that these are false allegations.

[Wags]

[quote=Charles YTK;35343078][/font]

Because the record of Abraham and how he lived. We know that when the "Lord" came to him he served him dairy and meat together, so he wasn't practicing anything that stood as a foundation for Rabbinical law. He gave a tithe to Melchezidek who was a Gentile and not a levite but may have been a pre-incarnation of Yeshua, and there was no temple system at all. This means that over 1/2 or more of the Torah was not being observed.


[/size][/i]

Uh Charles, you said that the Torah Abraham observed was not the one from Sini because of milk/meat? You need to rethink that one my friend. Just because Abraham wasn't obeserving oral Torah doesn't mean he wasn't observing the prohibition against seething a kid in its mother's milk. Talk about stretching.......