Just a word before I go.

[Charles YTK]

I wanted to say that I have no hard feeling toward any individuals on this forum. I have enjoyed some of my time here over the years. I have seen this MJ forum go through many changes, in doctrine, in temperment , and in membership. The forum, for better or worse seems to continue.

I have tried to bring to this forum a balanced approach to who we are as a people as downstream children of those first believers in Yeshua long ago. They were practicing Temple Judaism with the knowledge that Yeshua was the long awaited Messiah. And within a few short years the temple system was removed and two new forms of religion emerged, Rabbinical Judaism and Messianic Judaism, both Templess in form. We should never forget that the scriptures of the New Testament were mostly written before this change. So it is difficult to get a good handle on how it went from Judaism to Christianity with it's strange doctrines and Greeco-Roman practices. Somewhere in the midst of all that a faithful remnant lived daily, as disciples of Messiah, living out Torah as Yeshua and the Apostles taught it. This is what I have tried to discover for myself and reveal to you all. You have been an essential part of my investigation helping me to stay on the right track, correcting me when I overlooked something, showing me what you too have discovered. The seach goes on for all of us and will do so I suppose until the Lord comes. Then perhaps in time we can all sit down at his feet and ask questions about the things we have always wanted to know. I look forward to the day. Until then we must all walk in the way we were called. Paul says, for example, if we were called as Gentiles , then do not seek circumcision (conversion) and if we were called as Jews then do not seek to erase the marks of our circumcision. we are to walk in simple faith trusting God who takes us all down different yet converging paths that lead us to his kingdom. It is his work. We must be born of the spirit and prayerfully seek his guidance each step of the way. Sometimes he graces us with company on the way and someone to talk to and other times he makes us walk alone. But it is all for our good.

I have nothing more to offer to this forum. It's operators have stated that I should not be posting here at all because I am not Messianic enough. I will spend more time at Shimshon's house. The links are there in my personal info and all are welcome to join us there in fellowship. Also my Web site, now in it's 12th year of operation, will get some attention that it has needed for some time. And,,, there is that new Motorcycle and lots of sunny Florida Hiway to explore.

I pray for you all, that the Lord might bless you and prosper you and make you rich in the knowledge of the mighty one. I pray that he protects you from those who try to cut you up or change you into something other than what God called you to be. Keep an open mind but consider the sources of what you are being told. Look for the words and the life of Yeshua in the ones who are leading you. Test everything by his commandments to love one another and to be his disciples who spread the gospel of the Kingdom to the very ends of the earth. We are to make disciples of Yeshua not diciples of Rambam. Know the shepherds voice and flee from strangers. Be watchful for your souls for many are out to devour you.

I thank the many who have PM'd and e'mailed me in support and appologize that I will not be around to personally respond to all of you. Your support has been a blessing when the battle was making me weary. Keep looking for Yeshua in everything you are told! Amen?

Shalom,

Charles

[MyZz]

A big EMEN to that Charles.Great post and sad to see u go, ur posts are always a such a great blessing to me..but I'll will keep up with u at shimshon's place and ur website rocks btw :thumbsup:
love u loadsss :kiss:

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Where is it written Charles ;
Yahshua waits for you outside the gate.
(because He's not allowed inside and won't override anyone's free will until it's time for judgement),
and those who seek Him are [considered] outcasts of society.

So you're in good company [with other's who have gone outside for righteousness sake, obedient to the Master].
Shalom . . .

[ContentInHim]

:cry:

I'm going to get your info, Charles. :hug:

[SpiritPsalmist]

I can't find the links you are referring to.

[Charles YTK]

I can't find the links you are referring to.
Just click on my name in my posts and a drop down menu will appear. You will see a link for "Visit Charles YTK's Homepage". That will get you to the web site and right at the top is a link to the Living Water Forum.

Charles

[SpiritPsalmist]

Thanks Charles. Since moving and being on a different computer from what I had before I had lost the address to your site. I'm already a member there but because I'm so busy with my job I don't know how often I can visit but I will visit as often as I can. :)

[christianmomof3]

:hug: I pray that you will enjoy Christ and keep growing in His life. :prayer:

[BereanTodd]

Charles I'm extremely sorry to see you go. You are one of the members I value most, and I always enjoyed reading your posts. You will be sorely missed.

*goes off to ponder what is happening to this forum ...*

[talmidim]

I have the sneaking suspicion that most of the controversy here is based in simple misunderstanding. And I ask everyone, no matter what you THINK is going on to hold this situation up in prayer. Everyone involved are good people that love Adonai. That alone should be enough to convince everyone to seek reconciliation and a more open understanding of the events that led up to this situation.

Charles, do not go. Because if you do, I will be forced to start praying for patience for you... :D (and the crowd goes, "oooooohhhh")

[brachah]

i dont know what happened. but sounds ridiculous that "somebody is not messianic enough". hahaa. GBU, beloved brother, i hope u stay, n still enjoy being among those u love here. or u can post in other forums. hope to see u around. u r a valuable part of cf.

shalom.

[Charles YTK]

Thank you but you see it would not work. Even now the original post that revelaed the truth has been deleted. Lacking a "Sherman and Peabody and their way-back-machine", a more crude way of revision of the past must take place. You can do this by locking a thread and then editing it's contents so that it no longer says what you do not want to hear or others to know. (Thank God for mirror sites) How can I , or rathe,r how can you or anyone grow and thrive in such a place? It only tears the soul apart and breaks the spirit of a person.

Thanks for the sentiments and perhaps we will cross paths again.

Charles

[Charles YTK]

I have the sneaking suspicion that most of the controversy here is based in simple misunderstanding. And I ask everyone, no matter what you THINK is going on to hold this situation up in prayer. Everyone involved are good people that love Adonai. That alone should be enough to convince everyone to seek reconciliation and a more open understanding of the events that led up to this situation.

Charles, do not go. Because if you do, I will be forced to start praying for patience for you... :D (and the crowd goes, "oooooohhhh")

Talmidim,

Thanks and I'll gladly accept the prayers for patience. Mine has run out after , what is it now?, seven years here? CF continually changes. Today it seems like the anterior room of a church with a radio ministry. We seem to be going through a redesign that we did not have voice in.

If this were simply a misunderstanding then I would agree and continue to pray as I have for years. However I am aware of and have documented an actual plan that was put together to remove me and Shimshon from the forum because our brand of Messainic faith was not what the new design called for. (To Christian?) An actual decision to remove me was made several months ago. Tish actually fought in my behalf to prevent this from taking place, even taking upon herself the personal task of coaching me in better human relations. I was and am still grateful for her efforts and did gain some things from it. (Thanks again Tish :kiss: ) The bottom line is that Tish is really not the problem. I am. Because I believe that God's intent in the world is Malchut, Kingdom, beginning within us, and not Mamlacha, the dictatorship of God over a reluctant people who do not accept his Kingship. All this happen from within by the working of God's spirit. This is contrary to the new design of CF. I need to be where I can preach the word given to me by God. All else is only noise. All sub kingdoms made by men will fall and be burned to ashes.

I will be staying over at Shimshons house. We can visit there and stand in the courts of the king. Hope you and others will come and worship the King and enter his Kingdom. He has prepared many such rooms.

[talmidim]

Talmidim,

Thanks and I'll gladly accept the prayers for patience. Mine has run out after , what is it now?, seven years here? CF continually changes. Today it seems like the anterior room of a church with a radio ministry. We seem to be going through a redesign that we did not have voice in.

If this were simply a misunderstanding then I would agree and continue to pray as I have for years. However I am aware of and have documented an actual plan that was put together to remove me and Shimshon from the forum because our brand of Messainic faith was not what the new design called for. (To Christian?) An actual decision to remove me was made several months ago. Tish actually fought in my behalf to prevent this from taking place, even taking upon herself the personal task of coaching me in better human relations. I was and am still grateful for her efforts and did gain some things from it. (Thanks again Tish :kiss: ) The bottom line is that Tish is really not the problem. I am. Because I believe that God's intent in the world is Malchut, Kingdom, beginning within us, and not Mamlacha, the dictatorship of God over a reluctant people who do not accept his Kingship. All this happen from within by the working of God's spirit. This is contrary to the new design of CF. I need to be where I can preach the word given to me by God. All else is only noise. All sub kingdoms made by men will fall and be burned to ashes.

I will be staying over at Shimshons house. We can visit there and stand in the courts of the king. Hope you and others will come and worship the King and enter his Kingdom. He has prepared many such rooms. I believe that all of this is a matter of perception and misunderstanding. So I will ask this question publicly.

P_G, Tish, is it your intention to orchestrate a plan to remove Charles and Shimshon from these forums?

Now, on to something I really do not want to do. I am going to tell you how I see things. Something that may not be very politic or very well received by anyone involved in this.

So you want to bail. OK Charles, if you insist. Just remember this:


The patience thing was a threat. The only way to gain patience is by trials, and I would not really wish you anymore trials...
You are walking away from your MINISTRY here by YOUR choice.
Perhaps you don't agree, but the way I read it, Tish was telling you that the TERMINOLOGY "Torah of Yeshua" was being misunderstood and causing strife. Are you really saying that you can't come up with a different way to make your doctrinal points than by the use of that phrase?
The long and short of this is simple. You both got your feelings hurt because you took your eyes off of Him. Both you and Tish have a ministry here. Significant damage has been done to both of your ministries over this. So what is more important to you? The ministry that the Lord has given you? Or your feelings of hurt and frustration?

It is clear that many here respond to your teachings. And many do not want you to go. If you need some time off, I can understand that. We all do from time to time. But there is no doubt that this forum is significantly less rabbinical and more Yeshua centered than it was a year ago. Are you really ready to abandon those gains for the sake of your wounded feelings? It's not like you have been flogged or imprisoned like Paul was...

And finally, you say that the message was sent to you and therefore yours to do with as you please. Well the term "Private Message" should have been your first clue, even if you were unaware of Rule 4.2.

Charles, Tish trusted her exchange with you to remain private and you violated that trust and in doing so damaged her ministry here. I can understand if you share a Private Message with one or two people to gain different perspectives. But you should have PMed her back with your concerns. From where I stand, you both should apologize and move on. Lift not your hand (or voice) against the Lord's anointed (David speaking of Saul in case you need a reference).

My preference is that you and Shimshon and P_G and Tish exchange phone numbers, get on a conference call and work this out for the good of all that come to these forums. Every one of you are valued contributors here. Giving up on that is wrong.

I love you all, but you all missed the mark on this one. Here is a hug and a kiss to get things started. :hug::kiss:

Offered in His Love,
Gramps

[stone]

Everyone,

Please keep in mind the rules. I will be enforceing them.

Stone
Ecumenical Moderator

[Shimshon]

Talmidim, you have no clue to what goes on behind your back. I do, Which BTW, this is not the only place where our ministry is. Our ministry is wherever we walk, live and breath.

We are given an example of shaking the dust off our feet and moving on. By our Master himself.

Tal, your plea's are made in ignorance of the true situaion. As proven by your questions in this thread.

That PM states the option of going public with it. I just see Charles chose to do so. And even that is not acceptable.

Tal, it's much more than hurt feelings.....it's about honor respect and GODLINESS!!!

Would you have me stay working for Haman after I found out his plan to murder my family? Stay to assure my escape maybe...but stay like Samson tied to the mill???? I think not.

shalom

[talmidim]

Talmidim, you have no clue to what goes on behind your back. I do, Which BTW, this is not the only place where our ministry is. Our ministry is wherever we walk, live and breath.

We are given an example of shaking the dust off our feet and moving on. By our Master himself.

Tal, your plea's are made in ignorance of the true situaion. As proven by your questions in this thread.

That PM states the option of going public with it. I just see Charles chose to do so. And even that is not acceptable.

Tal, it's much more than hurt feelings.....it's about honor respect and GODLINESS!!!

Would you have me stay working for Haman after I found out his plan to murder my family? Stay to assure my escape maybe...but stay like Samson tied to the mill???? I think not.

shalomShalom old friend,

Perhaps you are right and I am ignorant. For sure I see you are upset. But you and Charles ministries here have not been to the Moderators, but to those members and visitors that read your posts.

And my friend, you are not tied to the mill. So unless you have been barred or banned (because no one is planning any executions), you are giving up. And you are dusting off your sandals against everyone that are innocent of these things you say. BTW, that instruction was for those places that refuse the good news. And many of the people here just want you to stay because they value your teachings. That is how I see it.

In closing I want to point out that I am no different than you. I have had my feelings hurt. I have felt the frustrations that you have. And I have taken a break. But here I am. And I hope that here, you will be too.

In His Love,
Gramps

[Tishri1]

Tal you are absolutly right

this is a misunderstanding that Charles knows and understands very well as we have talked and talked and all of his human relations coaching and all of the problem centers around 5 words"Torah Moshe VS Torah Yeshua"...I am sad to see him and Shimshon go also for this one small issue...sure its become a big one because the debate that has gone back and forth over these 5 words has made the problem grow, but that is all it is Tal (and everyone who isn't familiar with whats been going on here) thats all it is.....and you asked

P_G, Tish, is it your intention to orchestrate a plan to remove Charles and Shimshon from these forums?
the answer is a resounding NO Never , Shimshon was going to be our next Mod, why would I trust him with an office like that if I didnt want him here? On the contrary I was trying to help them help themselves (well mostly Charles) become more connected in here and give up alittle of the Push they seem to always have on the group about this separation with Torah Moshe and Torah Yeshua it was definately an adjustment I was after and the PM I send was the result of desperately needing a forum adjustment in that dirrection, not at all about some massive conspiracy.....AND PG is clueless hes probably scratching his head in fact over this:wave:

[torahgrandma]

Sorry to see you and Shimshon go Charles. I know you and I have had some heated debates on the CF side, but hey...that is my nature. Hopefully there was no offense taken. I wish you well.

[jgonz]

Charles (and Shimshon too I guess) I'm really sorry to see you go. We haven't always seen eye to eye... but then again I don't see eye to eye with Anyone. ;) You both have made me think, and helped me clarify what I believe and why. This whole thing makes me sick to my stomach and SO wish it hadn't come to this. :(

Take care. :groupray:

[mpossoff]

Tish didn't Charles post in response to a PM he received about the 'Torah of Yeshua' . I thought he explained it well enough that others would understand.

Marc

[Tishri1]

Marc, He didnt. Please see my thread in here for why I sent a Private PM to him and Shimshon and then PM me if you have any questions ok?

[Charles YTK]

Tish didn't Charles post in response to a PM he received about the 'Torah of Yeshua' . I thought he explained it well enough that others would understand.

Marc



Marc, He didnt. Please see my thread in here for why I sent a Private PM to him and Shimshon and then PM me if you have any questions ok?

Hmmm. Yes I did.


http://www.christianforums.com/t5306846-the-new-covenant-torah.html

[Charles YTK]

I am copying the opening post from that thread here for convenience and so that I can direct your attention to the fact that what I am saying does not create a line of demarcation between the old and new Torah. It shows how the words of Yeshua bring life to the old covenant Torah and replaces the things that were fulfilled in their purpose and expanded to a greater mission.

Yeshua was and is the greatest Torah teacher who ever lived. Much greater than the sages. We can trust what he says and what he did to bring Torah into a New Covenant with new emphasis and new application.

______________________________

The New Covenant Torah



I was PM'ed by one of our members here who expressed having some misunderstanding with my posts because of the term I use "New Covenant Torah". I had a thought that maybe others also misunderstand and think I am speaking of the Christian doctrine of only two laws or some other such thing. That is not the case. It is of course my own coined expression so I will explain so that possibly I can avoid further confusion.

When I say "New Covenant Torah" I am referring to Jeremiah 31. In this passage God promises the New Covenant and with it there is the promise of writing his Torah on our hearts. It is not the same Torah as the Sinai Torah. It is a New Covenant Torah. This covenant is not the same and we do not or should not expect the Torah to be the same. The Sinai Torah supported the operation of the Sinai Covenant and likewise the Torah of the New Covenant supports the New Covenant. There are similarities because both are made by the same God and so his character is reflected in both, but they are not word for word. For example many things in the Sinai Torah speak directly to "When you are living in the lands that I am giving you" and apply only there. While the New Covenant is a world wide Kingdom and has a Torah that supports all nationalities in all lands of the world.

The Torah given to support the Sinai Covenant is limited to the lands of Israel in much of its authority and was dependent upon the operation of the Levitical priesthood and temple sacrificial system. The New Covenant is different in many ways in that we have the essential laws written into us by the spirit of God who is given residence within us. We become the temple of the Holy Spirit and we are priests to God and offer a sacrifice of prayer, praise, and love to others.

So how do we see the law? How can we get a look at what it teaches? The Spirit will reveal it to us over time, but we get little glimpses of it from the scriptures. Things that Yeshua taught, things that the Apostles taught, the words of the prophets that are particular to the Kingdom of God, the revelation of Messiah written by John, all these show us what is there. From these we see a much different Torah in operation, with a different priesthood and a heavenly Tabernacle, and we see a law that is more just and more flexible slanted toward applying justice and mercy, Just as messiah extended mercy rather than stoning many times, resisting the letter of the law in favor of mercy.

When we receive salvation through the blood of Yeshua and receive the spirit in us, we also become citizens of the Kingdom of God and members of the New Covenant and therefore have the New Covenant Torah written on our hearts. It is up to us to release our previous notions of what God's law was and what the Rabbis thought was right and to listen to our Messiah who speaks to our hearts by His spirit in us. And when we really do this we often find that we are in agreement with one another, because the same spirit of God is working in us all. And what we agree on does not always fit well within the torah of Sinai. This is the way it was supposed to be. Also what the spirit tells us does not always agree with what the leaders of the Christian church in general have taught, things like replacement theology, the diminishing of Israel, the change in Sabbath, the adoption of strange festivals and the neglect of Gods Moedim, and we can go further to Christian wars, Pogroms, inquisitions, crusades all of which found approval and support from the Central church and ruling councils but which were totally wrong according to the spirit in us.

We must live by the New Covenant Torah that is written upon our hearts and experience the New Covenant reality of the Kingdom of God, for as Yeshua said, for right now, the Kingdom of God is within you.

Shalom,

Charles

[brachah]

wow. eye openning. i think u can post anything freely in deeper fellow forum. i post there a lot. it may avoid any denominational crash. & u may get more feedbacks. G-d bless u. shalom.

[Cheriann]

I have the sneaking suspicion that most of the controversy here is based in simple misunderstanding. And I ask everyone, no matter what you THINK is going on to hold this situation up in prayer. Everyone involved are good people that love Adonai. That alone should be enough to convince everyone to seek reconciliation and a more open understanding of the events that led up to this situation.

Charles, do not go. Because if you do, I will be forced to start praying for patience for you... :D (and the crowd goes, "oooooohhhh")


"OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHH":P !!!!!!!!!!!!

[Cheriann]

I am copying the opening post from that thread here for convenience and so that I can direct your attention to the fact that what I am saying does not create a line of demarcation between the old and new Torah. It shows how the words of Yeshua bring life to the old covenant Torah and replaces the things that were fulfilled in their purpose and expanded to a greater mission.

Yeshua was and is the greatest Torah teacher who ever lived. Much greater than the sages. We can trust what he says and what he did to bring Torah into a New Covenant with new emphasis and new application.

______________________________

The New Covenant Torah



I was PM'ed by one of our members here who expressed having some misunderstanding with my posts because of the term I use "New Covenant Torah". I had a thought that maybe others also misunderstand and think I am speaking of the Christian doctrine of only two laws or some other such thing. That is not the case. It is of course my own coined expression so I will explain so that possibly I can avoid further confusion.

When I say "New Covenant Torah" I am referring to Jeremiah 31. In this passage God promises the New Covenant and with it there is the promise of writing his Torah on our hearts. It is not the same Torah as the Sinai Torah. It is a New Covenant Torah. This covenant is not the same and we do not or should not expect the Torah to be the same. The Sinai Torah supported the operation of the Sinai Covenant and likewise the Torah of the New Covenant supports the New Covenant. There are similarities because both are made by the same God and so his character is reflected in both, but they are not word for word. For example many things in the Sinai Torah speak directly to "When you are living in the lands that I am giving you" and apply only there. While the New Covenant is a world wide Kingdom and has a Torah that supports all nationalities in all lands of the world.

The Torah given to support the Sinai Covenant is limited to the lands of Israel in much of its authority and was dependent upon the operation of the Levitical priesthood and temple sacrificial system. The New Covenant is different in many ways in that we have the essential laws written into us by the spirit of God who is given residence within us. We become the temple of the Holy Spirit and we are priests to God and offer a sacrifice of prayer, praise, and love to others.

So how do we see the law? How can we get a look at what it teaches? The Spirit will reveal it to us over time, but we get little glimpses of it from the scriptures. Things that Yeshua taught, things that the Apostles taught, the words of the prophets that are particular to the Kingdom of God, the revelation of Messiah written by John, all these show us what is there. From these we see a much different Torah in operation, with a different priesthood and a heavenly Tabernacle, and we see a law that is more just and more flexible slanted toward applying justice and mercy, Just as messiah extended mercy rather than stoning many times, resisting the letter of the law in favor of mercy.

When we receive salvation through the blood of Yeshua and receive the spirit in us, we also become citizens of the Kingdom of God and members of the New Covenant and therefore have the New Covenant Torah written on our hearts. It is up to us to release our previous notions of what God's law was and what the Rabbis thought was right and to listen to our Messiah who speaks to our hearts by His spirit in us. And when we really do this we often find that we are in agreement with one another, because the same spirit of God is working in us all. And what we agree on does not always fit well within the torah of Sinai. This is the way it was supposed to be. Also what the spirit tells us does not always agree with what the leaders of the Christian church in general have taught, things like replacement theology, the diminishing of Israel, the change in Sabbath, the adoption of strange festivals and the neglect of Gods Moedim, and we can go further to Christian wars, Pogroms, inquisitions, crusades all of which found approval and support from the Central church and ruling councils but which were totally wrong according to the spirit in us.

We must live by the New Covenant Torah that is written upon our hearts and experience the New Covenant reality of the Kingdom of God, for as Yeshua said, for right now, the Kingdom of God is within you.

Shalom,

Charles
I remember this post, and Charles you already know that I don't want you to go.

[christianmomof3]

:hug:
We must live by the New Covenant Torah that is written upon our hearts and experience the New Covenant reality of the Kingdom of God, for as Yeshua said, for right now, the Kingdom of God is within you.


Jer 31:33 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=24&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=33) But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Heb 8:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

Heb 10:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

:amen:

This living law is Christ Himself written in our hearts, living within us so that we all know Him because He lives in us. Rather than the outward law of letters relying on outward teachings, the inward law of life depends on our inward consciousness. This is our following Christ Himself who lives in us.

Col 1:27 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27) To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

We have Christ living within us and we can and should follow Him and His leading in everything that we do!

[yeshuaslavejeff]

wow. eye openning. i think u can post anything freely in deeper fellow forum. i post there a lot. it may avoid any denominational crash. & u may get more feedbacks. G-d bless u. shalom.
yes and no, yes you can post more in some threads, but if you post the truth that someone doesn't like, you can/will get a warning and/or edited-deleted. (some truth must remain unsaid according to rules of the forum)

[brachah]

jeff, have u tried liberal forum? i thought as a christian u can get most freedom of speech there. or u can post in some debate forum, or in ur own cf blog, mayb. i dont know, just want to help.

[Charles YTK]

Tish,

First off I want you to know that I am not harboring any ill feelings toward you personally. You have gone out of your way to defend and encourage me and to train me in the higher points of refined social behavior. I stated this in my thread before you posted this one, My grievance is with the “Over-lords” whoever they might be, who dictate to this forum what we are as a group and who of it’s members is eligible to post. Most recently P_G lays claim to making this decision. As to whether or not he holds that particular authority legitimately is something for someone else to determine. For me the question is whether or not I am willing to submit myself to that authority and whether I should I compromise the mission that God has given me personally. I feel that I can not. This is why I did not post the PM to me right away but instead questioned the intentions of someone who claims to be Torah observant and then places women in charge over gathering of believing men which is not in keeping with Judaism and it’s Torah and customs. It is almost like listening to a person talk about the terrible evils of booze while they are sipping on a bourbon. There always seems to be a way around the Torah for convenience sake.

Now getting to your letter/ statement to the forum, you said that you are not a Rabbinical type and I believe you, and you say that you mostly agree with mine and Shimshons position. But then you make a decision that is totally against us and the message we preach. And you do so sort of out of the blue and in secret? You say it was your decision and not P_G’s yet he is the one who actually has authority over you and he says it was his doing. Well I am confused. But the bottom line is that our message, among all the opinions given voice in this forum, ours is the one that will not be tolerated. And what is our message? That the Kingdom of God is here, and we are part of it. That Yeshua is Lord, not Moshe or Rambam. That the New Covenant was given and the Sinai covenant is passed away. That the Torah for the Kingdom is not the same as the Torah given for the nation of Israel, similar yes but not identical word for word. All these are at the very heart of the Messianic faith and have been so from the beginning. These are the great truths of the New Testament! But someone here does not want that Gospel preached and would rather return to being “Messiah-less Jews”. Another of the members here has just left Messiah to pursue Rabbinical Judaism.

You have stated that our message was determined to be outside mainstream messianic faith and could not be preached, and yet that is what the Apostles did preach. So let’s look at “Mainstream” Messianics. They have been in a process of turning toward a strict Rabbinical interpretation of the scriptures giving more weight to Talmud than to the teachings of Yeshua. You admit that this is true. Did you realize that some are going so far as to eliminate certain writings from their accepted canon, books like Colossians, Galatians and Hebrews. Why? Because they are too hard to explain in view of their new thrust into Rabbinical Judaism. Some Messianics are now reducing Yeshua from the son of God or God incarnate to just a Rabbi from Nazzareth and a good Torah teacher. Some go even further and say that he was a radical and had some good ideas but also had some bad ideas and that is why he was killed, he broke the Torah and really wasn’t the Messiah at all. Some Messianics say that your salvation is dependent not upon Yeshua but your own perfection of Torah keeping. Is this where CFMJ is heading? Has there been any voice besides mine and Shimshon’s that have resisted these things? Not many and none as adamantly as we.

You say that all of the Bible is Torah, however that is not the belief of everyone. Some see only Moshe as Torah. I believe that all the bible is valid and authoritative. And it all has things to teach us. But one has to be blind to see that things taught in the New Testament are in many place contrary to the teachings of the Old Testament. We live in the Kingdom of Messiah and his teaching must take precedence. You accuse us of making a distinction or separation between the old and the new. Well there is a distinction, unless you think we are still supposed to be making a Pilgrimage to Jerusalem three times a year, and offering animal sacrifices for our sins, and being cleansed by the ashes of the Red Heifer and killing our sons for talking back to us. There most certainly is a difference under the New Covenant. If you step back and look at the overhead logo you will notice that MJ forum exists under the banner of “Christian” Forums and the majority, the vast majority of Christians believe and doctrinally state that the Old testament law is not valid any longer and has been replaced by the two, Love God and Love neighbor. Now if you want to see separation there is a big one and it looms over us all since we are Messianics. Will you sensor the rest of Christian forums for making this distinction? So how big is our distinction in comparison to that which is standard doctrine for the rest of CF? Not much I think. If you read what I wrote about the law of the Kingdom (Torah of Yeshua) you will see that it is in support of the Torah but places an emphasis on the interpretation and greater meaning presented by Messiah Yeshua. That is who we are, Messianics, those who follow the teachings of Messiah Yeshua.

Consider for a moment that a man can be identified in regards to his nationality by two things, the laws he keeps and who he pays taxes to. Your national identity is determined by those two. You can be from any race or ethnic origin, but your identity is based on whose laws you obey. So do we obey the laws that were given to ancient Israel? Then we are Israeli. Or do we follow the laws of Yeshua and are part of his Kingdom? For me it is the latter. I do not stone the adulterer as Israel did. I extend to them compassion and healing and a righteous course. I don’t hate those who revile me, I love them and extend God’s love to them. I don’t bring animal sacrifices nor try to earn my own salvation, I repent of my sins and rely on the finished work of Yeshua to atone for my sins and for his spirit to grow up a new righteousness within me.

What I see here Tish is pressure from someone to get us out of the way of being a front runner in mainstream Messianic faith. There are several denominational churches competing for the title, such as four square and the Baptists who want their flag over us all. And if it happens we will be required to compromise the message that defines who we are. I am not rabbinical and I am not denominational either. Messianic is different, other, separate. We are a unique voice in all the world and carry the life of Yeshua to the world. We are his body. We do not sponsor or promote wars, crusades, inquisitions, holocausts or genocide as mainstream Christianity has done over the centuries. We follow his law and teaching and carry his love within us. We are the last of a faithful line of followers who do what the master says, who sit only at his feet and learn from him. Paul was a disciple of Gamaliel, and later he tossed it aside for the better and true master, Yeshua. Should we now toss Yeshua so that we can sit at the feet of Gamaliel? I don’t think so. But many do. I never guessed that my faithfulness to Yeshua would make me an outcast to his people, but it has. I am leaving because I can not go where someone is taking this forum and these people. It is not the word the Lord gave me to share, and it does not raise up the Messiah who saved me. I am his disciple and a member of his Kingdom through the blood of the New Covenant that he made for us all. I have to remain a faithful servant to him. Yes this forum is less Rabbinical than it was a year ago. This is due in part to your leadership but also to Shimshon, Yod, Talmidim, and myself who have struggled many hours to bring the light of Yeshua back on the scriptures. Shimshon and I openly opposed those leaders before who were leading this Forum deeper and deeper into Talmudic Judaism. We preached the Kingdom, the raising up of the Sukkah of David the Torah of Messiah Yeshua. And now that message is to be excluded from being openly shared here. You have closed the door on us and cut off our mission, tied our hands and gagged our mouths. Why would we stay? There would be no point other than to pass the time and talk with old friends and make new ones. That would be fun, but that is not the mission I was given by my master, who said, “You are not to take the name of any denomination or work of men. They will not accept you in the name of a church. But they will accept you in my name, because you shall speak what I give you to say.” These words were spoken to me by the man who anointed me when I received the spirit and spoken to my heart again later as if they were audible words over the Public address system, some 30 years ago, and they have been true to this day. I will continue to speak where his word is received. Some will be blessed and some will hate it. That is God’s work. Mine is to speak what he puts on my heart.

[BereanTodd]

Tish,

First off I want you to know that I am not harboring any ill feelings toward you personally. You have gone out of your way to defend and encourage me and to train me in the higher points of refined social behavior. I stated this in my thread before you posted this one, My grievance is with the “Over-lords” whoever they might be, who dictate to this forum what we are as a group and who of it’s members is eligible to post. Most recently P_G lays claim to making this decision. As to whether or not he holds that particular authority legitimately is something for someone else to determine. For me the question is whether or not I am willing to submit myself to that authority and whether I should I compromise the mission that God has given me personally. I feel that I can not. This is why I did not post the PM to me right away but instead questioned the intentions of someone who claims to be Torah observant and then places women in charge over gathering of believing men which is not in keeping with Judaism and it’s Torah and customs. It is almost like listening to a person talk about the terrible evils of booze while they are sipping on a bourbon. There always seems to be a way around the Torah for convenience sake.

Now getting to your letter/ statement to the forum, you said that you are not a Rabbinical type and I believe you, and you say that you mostly agree with mine and Shimshons position. But then you make a decision that is totally against us and the message we preach. And you do so sort of out of the blue and in secret? You say it was your decision and not P_G’s yet he is the one who actually has authority over you and he says it was his doing. Well I am confused. But the bottom line is that our message, among all the opinions given voice in this forum, ours is the one that will not be tolerated. And what is our message? That the Kingdom of God is here, and we are part of it. That Yeshua is Lord, not Moshe or Rambam. That the New Covenant was given and the Sinai covenant is passed away. That the Torah for the Kingdom is not the same as the Torah given for the nation of Israel, similar yes but not identical word for word. All these are at the very heart of the Messianic faith and have been so from the beginning. These are the great truths of the New Testament! But someone here does not want that Gospel preached and would rather return to being “Messiah-less Jews”. Another of the members here has just left Messiah to pursue Rabbinical Judaism.

You have stated that our message was determined to be outside mainstream messianic faith and could not be preached, and yet that is what the Apostles did preach. So let’s look at “Mainstream” Messianics. They have been in a process of turning toward a strict Rabbinical interpretation of the scriptures giving more weight to Talmud than to the teachings of Yeshua. You admit that this is true. Did you realize that some are going so far as to eliminate certain writings from their accepted canon, books like Colossians, Galatians and Hebrews. Why? Because they are too hard to explain in view of their new thrust into Rabbinical Judaism. Some Messianics are now reducing Yeshua from the son of God or God incarnate to just a Rabbi from Nazzareth and a good Torah teacher. Some go even further and say that he was a radical and had some good ideas but also had some bad ideas and that is why he was killed, he broke the Torah and really wasn’t the Messiah at all. Some Messianics say that your salvation is dependent not upon Yeshua but your own perfection of Torah keeping. Is this where CFMJ is heading? Has there been any voice besides mine and Shimshon’s that have resisted these things? Not many and none as adamantly as we.

You say that all of the Bible is Torah, however that is not the belief of everyone. Some see only Moshe as Torah. I believe that all the bible is valid and authoritative. And it all has things to teach us. But one has to be blind to see that things taught in the New Testament are in many place contrary to the teachings of the Old Testament. We live in the Kingdom of Messiah and his teaching must take precedence. You accuse us of making a distinction or separation between the old and the new. Well there is a distinction, unless you think we are still supposed to be making a Pilgrimage to Jerusalem three times a year, and offering animal sacrifices for our sins, and being cleansed by the ashes of the Red Heifer and killing our sons for talking back to us. There most certainly is a difference under the New Covenant. If you step back and look at the overhead logo you will notice that MJ forum exists under the banner of “Christian” Forums and the majority, the vast majority of Christians believe and doctrinally state that the Old testament law is not valid any longer and has been replaced by the two, Love God and Love neighbor. Now if you want to see separation there is a big one and it looms over us all since we are Messianics. Will you sensor the rest of Christian forums for making this distinction? So how big is our distinction in comparison to that which is standard doctrine for the rest of CF? Not much I think. If you read what I wrote about the law of the Kingdom (Torah of Yeshua) you will see that it is in support of the Torah but places an emphasis on the interpretation and greater meaning presented by Messiah Yeshua. That is who we are, Messianics, those who follow the teachings of Messiah Yeshua.

Consider for a moment that a man can be identified in regards to his nationality by two things, the laws he keeps and who he pays taxes to. Your national identity is determined by those two. You can be from any race or ethnic origin, but your identity is based on whose laws you obey. So do we obey the laws that were given to ancient Israel? Then we are Israeli. Or do we follow the laws of Yeshua and are part of his Kingdom? For me it is the latter. I do not stone the adulterer as Israel did. I extend to them compassion and healing and a righteous course. I don’t hate those who revile me, I love them and extend God’s love to them. I don’t bring animal sacrifices nor try to earn my own salvation, I repent of my sins and rely on the finished work of Yeshua to atone for my sins and for his spirit to grow up a new righteousness within me.

What I see here Tish is pressure from someone to get us out of the way of being a front runner in mainstream Messianic faith. There are several denominational churches competing for the title, such as four square and the Baptists who want their flag over us all. And if it happens we will be required to compromise the message that defines who we are. I am not rabbinical and I am not denominational either. Messianic is different, other, separate. We are a unique voice in all the world and carry the life of Yeshua to the world. We are his body. We do not sponsor or promote wars, crusades, inquisitions, holocausts or genocide as mainstream Christianity has done over the centuries. We follow his law and teaching and carry his love within us. We are the last of a faithful line of followers who do what the master says, who sit only at his feet and learn from him. Paul was a disciple of Gamaliel, and later he tossed it aside for the better and true master, Yeshua. Should we now toss Yeshua so that we can sit at the feet of Gamaliel? I don’t think so. But many do. I never guessed that my faithfulness to Yeshua would make me an outcast to his people, but it has. I am leaving because I can not go where someone is taking this forum and these people. It is not the word the Lord gave me to share, and it does not raise up the Messiah who saved me. I am his disciple and a member of his Kingdom through the blood of the New Covenant that he made for us all. I have to remain a faithful servant to him. Yes this forum is less Rabbinical than it was a year ago. This is due in part to your leadership but also to Shimshon, Yod, Talmidim, and myself who have struggled many hours to bring the light of Yeshua back on the scriptures. Shimshon and I openly opposed those leaders before who were leading this Forum deeper and deeper into Talmudic Judaism. We preached the Kingdom, the raising up of the Sukkah of David the Torah of Messiah Yeshua. And now that message is to be excluded from being openly shared here. You have closed the door on us and cut off our mission, tied our hands and gagged our mouths. Why would we stay? There would be no point other than to pass the time and talk with old friends and make new ones. That would be fun, but that is not the mission I was given by my master, who said, “You are not to take the name of any denomination or work of men. They will not accept you in the name of a church. But they will accept you in my name, because you shall speak what I give you to say.” These words were spoken to me by the man who anointed me when I received the spirit and spoken to my heart again later as if they were audible words over the Public address system, some 30 years ago, and they have been true to this day. I will continue to speak where his word is received. Some will be blessed and some will hate it. That is God’s work. Mine is to speak what he puts on my heart.

Thank you for that, and while you will be missed I support you Charles.

[christianmomof3]

I am not rabbinical and I am not denominational either. Messianic is different, other, separate. We are a unique voice in all the world and carry the life of Yeshua to the world. We are his body.
When I first heard about Messianic Jews I thought that perhaps I was a Messianic Jew since, by the definition of the words it would seem that a Messianic Jew would be a Jew who believes that Jesus is the Messiah. And that is what I am. I was born and raised in the Jewish religion and am now a born-again Christian. I think that is what many people think when they hear the term Messianic Jew.

Then I learned that Messianic Judaism is a religion consisting mainly of gentiles who are trying to follow the parts of the Jewish religion that they think still apply today and also believe that Jesus is the Messiah. From my research I have found that there really is not one single definition or explanation of what it means to be a Messianic Jew. Different groups of people chose to use that name and it means different thing to each group. So, there are some groups of Messianic Jews who are very close to being the same as Judaism and others who are almost the same as Evangelical Christians and still others who are deemed cults because they have beliefs that are off the scale of what is considered normal by either Judaism or Christianity.

Like Charles, I do not practice traditional denominational Christianity, which is what it seems that much of Messianic Judaism is a backlash against.
To me it seems like some people realized that many of the Christian practices did not stem from Judaism, but are pagan and otherwise cultural in origin and are not proper, which I agree with. But then they decided that in order to be proper Chrisitans, they needed to go back to the beginning and be Jews. I don't think that is correct either.

I don't know all the answers and I don't claim to. I am still searching and seeking which is a very Jewish thing to do by the way. :)
When I became a Christian I left my Judaism behind because I did not find the Lord there and like most people who leave any religious group, I thought the entire Jewish religion was at fault and that no one ever found God there since I did not know anyone within it who did. I now know that was not correct. Just because I did not find God within Judaism does not mean that other Jews don't. However, I would not encourage anyone who knows Christ to leave Him behind and go be Jewish. That would be going backwards and would not be correct.

I am looking for a way to help my children to know more about their Jewish heritage and for myself to learn more about it since I left it behind many years ago. I thought that perhaps Messianic Judaism would be a way for my children to learn that and yet not hear that believing that Jesus is wrong, which is what they would be told by the Jews. But, so far I am still not clear about what MJ is or if it is a proper thing to bring my children to.

Anyway, I agree with Charles and Shimshom. I am not sure what is going on here at this forum or in the MJ religion in general. I wish Charles and Shimshom well and I will continue on my own journey.

I pray that the Lord will guide all those who visit this forum.

The Lord is peace and I pray that He will be the peace within this forum.

Shalom ya'll.

[talmidim]

Sung to the tune of Muddy Waters' song "Baby, Please Don't Go" :cool:

Hey Charles, please don't go wah wah WAH wah wahhhh
Hey Charles, please don't go wah wah WAH wah wahhhh
Hey Charles, please don't go, Down to New Orleans, You know I love you so, Charles please don't go wah wah WAH wah waaaahhhhhhhhh :D

[mpossoff]

Well there is a distinction, unless you think we are still supposed to be making a Pilgrimage to Jerusalem three times a year, and offering animal sacrifices for our sins, and being cleansed by the ashes of the Red Heifer and killing our sons for talking back to us. There most certainly is a difference under the New Covenant

Yes there is a distinction.

I admit I don't know much and don't claim to be an expert

But what one also has to realize that it was Yeshua, the Word that was the one that gave the Torah to Moshe.

I believe that 'one nature' of the Torah is get us to realize how much we need a Savior because it condemns us.

I also believe that the other nature is that the Spirit causes us to obey it. Yes there is a distinction as you said Charles and I believe the Spirit will lead us to obey what is distinct and not distinct, applicable and not applicable.

He died for us so we would have the Spirit inside us and so that we would be able to see snd enter the Kingdom that is around us now. The Kingdom isn't 'up there' it's real, more real than the physical world. I'm starting to see the Kingdom, really see it, the 'spritual realm' if you will.

Marc

[Tishri1]

Charles I'm gonna miss you:hug:http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y202/galnaturelle/gifs/light.gif?t=1173540644
*A gift in hopes you come back and fellowship with us sometime:groupray:

[talmidim]

Charles I'm gonna miss you:hug:http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y202/galnaturelle/gifs/light.gif?t=1173540644
*A gift in hopes you come back and fellowship with us sometime:groupray:No you're not 'cause he's not gonna go. (I hope I hope I hope)

[yod]

And what is our message? That the Kingdom of God is here, and we are part of it. That Yeshua is Lord, not Moshe or Rambam. That the New Covenant was given and the Sinai covenant is passed away. That the Torah for the Kingdom is not the same as the Torah given for the nation of Israel, similar yes but not identical word for word. All these are at the very heart of the Messianic faith and have been so from the beginning. These are the great truths of the New Testament! But someone here does not want that Gospel preached and would rather return to being “Messiah-less Jews”. Another of the members here has just left Messiah to pursue Rabbinical Judaism.

You have stated that our message was determined to be outside mainstream messianic faith and could not be preached, and yet that is what the Apostles did preach.


I totally concur with this.

Yet we are called to be lights and that is hard to do when we leave. Hang in there, Charles. Your work isn't finished here.

[Tishri1]

No you're not 'cause he's not gonna go. (I hope I hope I hope)I hope he doesnt go either :wave: