Pray to the saints is spiritually harmful, here's proof: [Archive]

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aintzaJainkoari

27th May 2007, 09:40 PM

PaladinValer

27th May 2007, 11:03 PM

Why are you creating two threads on the same subject?

In addition, Fallacy of Slippery Slope.

Fin.

CrystalBrooke

28th May 2007, 04:47 PM

Where's the proof?:confused:

I know plenty of people who have asked for the Saints to interceed for them and nothing's happened to them. Perhaps this is consequence for your sins, not for someone asking for someone else to pray for them.

PaladinValer

28th May 2007, 06:58 PM

Like I said; he's just repeating himself. The fact that I called him on it here and in the other thread is perhaps why he's turned tail and fled (eating crow is never fun).

I do hope he shows up again so he can at least learn the facts.

aintzaJainkoari

30th May 2007, 08:17 PM

Okay, then give me facts on why I should pray to the saints, and not just tradition and quotes from Church fathers.

CrystalBrooke

30th May 2007, 08:57 PM

There is no rule that says you have to..it's a personal choice. You don't agree with it, that's perfectly fine, but to say that someone will be cursed for doing it...well that's just one of the most ignorant things I've ever heard in my life.

E.C.

30th May 2007, 09:16 PM

Dude, one instance does not equate everything. The Westboro Baptist Church person, Fred Phelps, hates homosexuals, the government, the US military soldiers and protests at funerals. Because he is Baptist, am I to think that all Baptists everywhere hate homosexuals, the government, the US military soldiers and protest at funerals?

Now, one could argue the use or disuse of statues and make any of 1 million and one conclusions. Also, the saints are people who truly lived the way Christ wanted people to live. Shouldn't we try to be like them?

QuantaCura

30th May 2007, 09:23 PM

Physical suffering is not spiritual harm--in fact, it can be quite the oppisite. It is sanctifying. How faithfully one bears the suffering will let you know whether one is spiritually healthy :) . Sounds like your grandma is! :)

Praying to the saints is no different than asking a good friend or other member of the Church to pray for you--a spiritually healthy thing to do.

Sincerely,
someone who was in a spiritual cesspool before having recourse to the Blessed Mother's intercession :)

PaladinValer

30th May 2007, 10:03 PM

Okay, then give me facts on why I should pray to the saints, and not just tradition and quotes from Church fathers.

Already answered in the other thread...and I'd like to know why you needed two threads on the same subject?

IgnatiusOfAntioch

30th May 2007, 10:22 PM

Jesus said make no image of Himself.

Someone has been lying you son. Jesus never said any such thing. There are many people who hate the Catholic Church and will tell any kind of lie to damage it and pull people away from it. Please, if someone says things against the Catholic Church, check it out for yourself. If it turns out that they aren't telling the Truth, get away from them as fast as you can.

Also, if you want to truely follow Jesus, ask him to help you discern the Truth. Heavenly Father, I believe that you sent your only Son, Jesus Christ to save us and that he founded His Church to hwlp us. Lord, open my eyes and lead me to the pillar and foundation of Truth.

May the peace Jesus Christ, the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you always.

Your brother in Christ.

marshgreencohen

6th June 2007, 05:07 AM

it's ur choice whether to pray to saint ao Mary.let's take for an instance if you ask something and you don't get it, will u stop believing or will carry on?

PaladinValer

6th June 2007, 09:19 AM

Hey OP; are you going to come back, or was this just a shot in the back?

If you want to claim as you do, you need to respond to those here who've you've slighted and posted lies about their beliefs.

Cribstyl

12th June 2007, 07:59 AM

Prayers should be made to God, NOT to angels or spirits of any dead person. Those who judge that certain dead people can petition God for them are not guided by the Holy Spirit.

Why? The ministry of the Holy Spirit is to gift men and women with various annointings to edify the body of Christ. Nothing is said about dead saints in that ministry.

Jesus taught that when we pray, say "Our Father....."

Show bible evidence where men should pray to dead saints?

It's a bogus argument to say...." asking other living being to pray for us is the same as asking dead people to prayer for us."
That's not from God's word.

This is...........

Jam 5:16 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Jam&chapter=5&verse=16&version=kjv#16)Confess [your] faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

CRIB

PaladinValer

12th June 2007, 10:46 AM

Prayers should be made to God, NOT to angels or spirits of any dead person.

Prayers don't equate to worship.

The definition of "prayer" is "ask."

Do you ask people to pray for you? If so, then that's hypocracy. If not, then you are still wrong, and I am very sorry that you live such a lonely spiritual life.

Oh, and souls cannot die.

Those who judge that certain dead people can petition God for them are not guided by the Holy Spirit.

The classic rebuttal! "You don't agree with me, so you don't have the Spirit!" An absolute classic retort! :D

Since you are wrong, what does your retort, if true, say now?

Why? The ministry of the Holy Spirit is to gift men and women with various annointings to edify the body of Christ. Nothing is said about dead saints in that ministry.

Death has no power anymore. Souls are immortal, and the gates of death have been flung wide open. That, or Christ failed.

Jesus taught that when we pray, say "Our Father....."

An example.

Show bible evidence where men should pray to dead saints?

Show Biblical evidence of the orthodox dogma of the Trinity. :)

It's a bogus argument to say...." asking other living being to pray for us is the same as asking dead people to prayer for us."
That's not from God's word.

it isn't in the Bible, but it is a logical argument which is sound.

This is...........

Jam 5:16 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Jam&chapter=5&verse=16&version=kjv#16)Confess [your] faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

So when was the last time you confessed your sins to a priest or bishop? :)

iannassah

13th June 2007, 12:09 PM

Why should any believer pray
to anyone other than God?
Why pray to someone that cannot answer prayers?

"Now this is the main point of the things we are saying:
We have such a High Priest,
who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,"
Hebrews 8:1

Nowhere in The Bible does it mention that we should confess our sins to a Bishop or a priest... Jesus is our high priest now!

Read Hebrews...

iannassah

13th June 2007, 12:15 PM

Who are we to be offended?
Jesus Christ is The One that payed for our sins, so He is The One that truly has a right to be offended.... but He chooses forgiveness instead...

PaladinValer

13th June 2007, 12:42 PM

Why should any believer pray
to anyone other than God?

Asked and answered a previous post of mine.

Why pray to someone that cannot answer prayers?

And you know...how?

When I've asked the Saints to interceed, my requests have been answered before.

Nowhere in The Bible does it mention that we should confess our sins to a Bishop or a priest... Jesus is our high priest now!

Read Hebrews...

How about St. James 5:16? Confess your sins to one another. You've misinterpreted Hebrews.

Who better than with a priest or bishop?!

Try it; its a wonderful, spiritual rite that is humbling, Spirit-filled, loving, compassionate, inspiring, and releasing. I suggest at least once a month.

Who are we to be offended?
Jesus Christ is The One that payed for our sins, so He is The One that truly has a right to be offended.... but He chooses forgiveness instead...

What does this have to do with the topic on hand? :scratch:

Cribstyl

13th June 2007, 12:48 PM

Originally Posted by aintzaJainkoari http://www3.christianforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=35174683#post35174683)
Jesus said make no image of Himself.

Someone has been lying you son. Jesus never said any such thing. There are many people who hate the Catholic Church and will tell any kind of lie to damage it and pull people away from it. Please, if someone says things against the Catholic Church, check it out for yourself. If it turns out that they aren't telling the Truth, get away from them as fast as you can.

Also, if you want to truely follow Jesus, ask him to help you discern the Truth. Heavenly Father, I believe that you sent your only Son, Jesus Christ to save us and that he founded His Church to hwlp us. Lord, open my eyes and lead me to the pillar and foundation of Truth.

May the peace Jesus Christ, the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you always.

Your brother in Christ.

Who is lying to whom:eek: ?

Exd 20:4 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Exd&c=20&v=4&version=KJV#4)Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth:

Lev 26:1 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Lev&c=26&v=1&version=KJV#1)Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up [any] image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I [am] the LORD your God.
Deu 4:16 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Deu&c=4&v=16&version=KJV#16)Lest ye corrupt [yourselves], and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female,
Deu 4:23 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Deu&c=4&v=23&version=KJV#23)Take heed unto yourselves, lest ye forget the covenant of the LORD your God, which he made with you, and make you a graven image, [or] the likeness of any [thing], which the LORD thy God hath forbidden thee.
Deu 4:25 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Deu&c=4&v=25&version=KJV#25)When thou shalt beget children, and children's children, and ye shall have remained long in the land, and shall corrupt [yourselves], and make a graven image, [or] the likeness of any [thing], and shall do evil in the sight of the LORD thy God, to provoke him to anger:
Deu 5:8 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Deu&c=5&v=8&version=KJV#8)Thou shalt not make thee [any] graven image, [or] any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the waters beneath the earth:

:scratch: What part of "make no carved statues of anything from heaven" dont you understand?
What part of "dont pray in front of images of stone" dont you understand?

Dont tell me....according to tradition...blah, blah, blah:doh:

Is Jesus not the same God that gave the commandments to Moses?:doh:

In fun and love
CRIB

PaladinValer

13th June 2007, 01:17 PM

Originally Posted by aintzaJainkoari http://www3.christianforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=35174683#post35174683)
Jesus said make no image of Himself.

Who is lying to whom:eek: ?

Numbers 21:4-9 4 From Mount Hor they set out by the way to the Red Sea, to go around the land of Edom; but the people became impatient on the way. 5 The people spoke against God and against Moses, "Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? For there is no food and no water, and we detest this miserable food." 6 Then the Lord sent poisonous serpents among the people, and they bit the people, so that many Israelites died. 7 The people came to Moses and said, "We have sinned by speaking against the Lord and against you; pray to the Lord to take away the serpents from us." So Moses prayed for the people. 8 And the Lord said to Moses, "Make a poisonous serpent, and set it on a pole; and everyone who is bitten shall look at it and live." 9 So Moses made a serpent of bronze, and put it upon a pole; and whenever a serpent bit someone, that person would look at the serpent of bronze and live.Looks like you have misinterpreted what God is saying in the Bible, Cribstyl, because He tells Moses to make a "graven image" in the likeness of a snake, which qualifies as something "in the earth beneath."

The graven images that are condemned are those that are worshiped. They are those of non-Christian origin that we are told not to worship.

No Apostolic Christian, be they "Roman" Catholic, Anglican, Eastern or Oriental Orthodox, Old Catholic, etc, worships the Saints or Angels. We venerate, not worship. One conotates doulia and the other latria, which are the Greek words used in Scripture. Scripture says give latria only to God. Doulia and even hyperdoulia may be given to the Saints and Angels without violating Christian doctrine and dogma.

Would you like to retract?

Cribstyl

13th June 2007, 02:31 PM

Prayers don't equate to worship.

The definition of "prayer" is "ask."

Is that your final answer? It's quite obvious why you define "prayer" with only a 3 letter word.

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/luna.html) - Cite This Source (http://dictionary.reference.com/cite.html?qh=prayer&ia=luna)
prayer1 /Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[prair]Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation–noun
1.a devout petition to God or an object of worship.
2.a spiritual communion with God or an object of worship, as in supplication, thanksgiving, adoration, or confession.
3.the act or practice of praying to God or an object of worship.
4.a formula or sequence of words used in or appointed for praying: the Lord's Prayer.
5.prayers, a religious observance, either public or private, consisting wholly or mainly of prayer.
6.that which is prayed for.
7.a petition; entreaty.
8.the section of a bill in equity, or of a petition, that sets forth the complaint or the action desired.
9.a negligible hope or chance: Do you think he has a prayer of getting that job?

[Origin: 1250–1300; ME preiere < OF < ML precāria, n. use of fem. of precārius obtained by entreaty, equiv. to prec- (s. of prex) prayer + -ārius -ary (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=-ary); cf. precarious (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=precarious)http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.png]

Do you ask people to pray for you? If so, then that's hypocracy. If not, then you are still wrong, and I am very sorry that you live such a lonely spiritual life.

FALSE, the bible teaches that living people can pray for you, not dead people.:doh: That false comparecent is a played-out tune by Catholic apologetics. Sorry Pal, There is no "gone fishing" sign on the throne. It's says come boldly in your time of need. God is Jahovah-Shammah_ "He is there."
Oh, and souls cannot die.

Tell that to God, because He said;
Eze 18:4 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Eze&c=18&v=4&version=KJV#4)Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine:the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

The classic rebuttal! "You don't agree with me, so you don't have the Spirit!" An absolute classic retort! :D

Since you are wrong, what does your retort, if true, say now?

Death has no power anymore. Souls are immortal, and the gates of death have been flung wide open. That, or Christ failed.

An example.

Show Biblical evidence of the orthodox dogma of the Trinity.

it isn't in the Bible, but it is a logical argument which is sound.

This is...........

Jam 5:16 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Jam&chapter=5&verse=16&version=kjv#16)Confess [your] faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

So when was the last time you confessed your sins to a priest or bishop?

YakityYakityYak, Do you seriously take your own advice?

Just say No

CRIB

Cribstyl

13th June 2007, 02:55 PM

Looks like you have misinterpreted what God is saying in the Bible, Cribstyl, because He tells Moses to make a "graven image" in the likeness of a snake, which qualifies as something "in the earth beneath."

The graven images that are condemned are those that are [B]worshiped. They are those of non-Christian origin that we are told not to worship.

No Apostolic Christian, be they "Roman" Catholic, Anglican, Eastern or Oriental Orthodox, Old Catholic, etc, worships the Saints or Angels. We venerate, not worship. One conotates doulia and the other latria, which are the Greek words used in Scripture. Scripture says give latria only to God. Doulia and even hyperdoulia may be given to the Saints and Angels without violating Christian doctrine and dogma.

Would you like to retract?
:eek: So...you've conclude...because God told Moses to form a snake to show Pharoah that his God was inferior to Moses God,..... then we can disregard what God says to His people about images during worship?:doh:

JimminyCrickitsMan, it's one of the 10.commandments?
It used to be #2...Where dit goo?:doh:

CRIB

PaladinValer

13th June 2007, 02:58 PM

Is that your final answer? It's quite obvious why you define "prayer" with only a 3 letter word.

Because that is what it is, as you yourself so conviently done for me (an honest thank you, by the way :))

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/luna.html) - Cite This Source (http://dictionary.reference.com/cite.html?qh=prayer&ia=luna)
prayer1 /Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[prair]Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation–noun

I'll go through these one by one. Do note that these entries are all seperate definitions. To suggest otherwise is the Fallacy of Equivocation, which would make your entire argument moot.

1.a devout petition to God or an object of worship.

Petition=ask.

Incidentally, latria=worship and doulia=worship in early modern English translations. One if them is given to God only (latria) whereas the other can be given to others.

2.a spiritual communion with God or an object of worship, as in supplication, thanksgiving, adoration, or confession.

Ditto my above.

3.the act or practice of praying to God or an object of worship.

Prayer=ask. Simple.

4.a formula or sequence of words used in or appointed for praying: the Lord's Prayer.

This one doesn't apply here.

5.prayers, a religious observance, either public or private, consisting wholly or mainly of prayer.

Circular Reasoning. Dictionaries do that very often.

6.that which is prayed for.

Again, Circular Reasoning.

7.a petition; entreaty.

Again, prayer=ask.

8.the section of a bill in equity, or of a petition, that sets forth the complaint or the action desired.

Ie: ask.

9.a negligible hope or chance: Do you think he has a prayer of getting that job?

Not applicable here, not to mention this would be a metaphoric definiton.

[Origin: 1250–1300; ME preiere < OF < ML precāria, n. use of fem. of precārius obtained by entreaty, equiv. to prec- (s. of prex) prayer + -ārius -ary (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=-ary); cf. precarious (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=precarious)http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.png]

And what does entreaty mean? They are synonyms, prayer and entreaty, after all. They mean the same thing.

FALSE, the bible teaches that living people can pray for you, not dead people.

The Bible also teaches that death has no power; the gates of hades (GK for sheol; the realm of the dead) have been flung open and are open to the Presence of God.

In addition, souls cannot die.

That false comparecent is a played-out tune by Catholic apologetics.

Then why did the Apostles teach their disciples to pray for the saints passed on? That there is enough to prove those "apologetics" right.

Sorry Pal, There is no "gone fishing" sign on the throne. It's says come boldly in your time of need. God is Jahovah-Shammah_ "He is there."

Who ever advocated that we must petition the Saints and that we couldn't pray to God? :scratch:

Tell that to God, because He said;
Eze 18:4 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Eze&c=18&v=4&version=KJV#4)Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine:the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

You've taken it too literally. Look at what happened to the human soul in the Garden: it was broken. That is what is referring to; that is the orthodox "soul death."

Don't believe me? Ask the earliest Christians. We have their writings.

YakityYakityYak, Do you seriously take your own advice?

Yes, I actually do enjoy celebrating the Sacrament of Holy Confession and Absolution (or, if you will, Holy Reconciliation of a Penitent). I should schedule this month's one with my priest on Thursday when I see him again.

St. Michael the Archangel, pray for us and defend us from heresy and sin.
St. Mary the Theotokos, pray for us and help us understand our salvation better.
Sts. Peter and Paul, pray for us and be as guides as to how to strive along the Way through persecution, even unto martyrdom.
St. Joseph the Betrothed, my Patron Saint and Patron of protectors, educations, doubters, and living faith, pray for us, and protect the Church, educate the faithful, strengthen the doubters, and show us how to live a living faith of belief and works so that we can have a holy death.

PaladinValer

13th June 2007, 03:01 PM

:eek: So...you've conclude...because God told Moses to form a snake to show Pharoah that his God was inferior to Moses God,..... then we can disregard what God says to His people about images during worship?:doh:

JimminyCrickitsMan, it's one of the 10.commandments?
It used to be #2...Where dit goo?:doh:

CRIB

Being proven wrong isn't easy, I'm sorry.

Well, you don't have to look at the staff; you have the option of simply dying instead of looking at that graven image of something on earth.

St. Luke, Patron of Iconography and Author of the first icon, pray for us.

Cribstyl

13th June 2007, 06:42 PM

:swoon::swoon::swoon:

PaladinValer

13th June 2007, 06:55 PM

Saint Valentine, Patron Saint of Fainting, pray for Cribstyl.

jrothra

14th June 2007, 03:54 AM

I will make my case against praying to the dead after I respond briefly to each quote.

Praying to the saints is no different than asking a good friend or other member of the Church to pray for you--a spiritually healthy thing to do.
This is incorrect. Conversing (whether in prayer or not) to a saint who has died is very different from a person who has not died. One died, one is still alive.

Some may argue that the saints are not dead because those who are part of the elect (the saved) live with Christ forever. However, this is to devalue the body as not part of the human person and to divide the person: the soul is the person, the flesh is a mere casing trapping the human. However, after God created man with a body, before the fall, the man with a soul and body was called “very good” and “blessed man” (Gen 1:26-31). To say the flesh is a mere container and not part of man is to allude that the flesh is not good, which opens the door to Gnostic teaching, which states the soul is good, the flesh is bad and should be shed. However, God saw the person as a whole unit of both a soul and body and that person was good.

My point is this: the saints died. Their souls are with Christ awaiting the future resurrection, but they did die on this earth. So one cannot rightly hold that to converse with the dead is the same as conversing with the living.

it's ur choice whether to pray to saint ao Mary.
Just because we are able to choose does not make the choice correct. We can choose to sin, too, but sin is still wrong. So using free will as an argument to support

Prayers don't equate to worship.
The definition of "prayer" is "ask."
Again, prayer=ask.
Do you ask people to pray for you? If so, then that's hypocracy. If not, then you are still wrong, and I am very sorry that you live such a lonely spiritual life.
Prayer=ask. Simple.
These are based on an understanding of the grammatical examination of the term. However, to understand prayer one must look at not just the grammatical meaning, but the meaning and purpose of prayer. I will define prayer in my argument below.

it isn't in the Bible, but it is a logical argument which is sound.
One cannot use logic as a final arbiter of sound doctrine because human logic is dependent upon human wisdom and reasoning. If something is right doctrine because it is logical, then many things that Scripture teaches must be rejected, including:
God’s existence = God’s existence cannot be proven scientifically; God cannot be observed (only those effects people attribute to God); the idea of a God is not logical.
Creation = the idea of a creation in seven days is scientifically impossible, therefore, illogical. However, evolution is more logical and therefore, should be accepted.
Miracles = they do not prove a God exists, but only prove that we have not yet learned enough about medicine and science to explain it. It’s more logical to assume a lack of knowledge than to assume a supernatural.
Scriptural veracity = the idea that one book written by many different authors over many centuries that teaches one unified lesson is not likely. Logic would dictate that the Bible is no different than any other ancient text, full of stories and changes recorded over many years that is full of errors. Wellhausen did much to promote this theory.This list is not exhaustive, only illustrative.

My point is to show that if logic creates doctrine, then many doctrines must be rejected because logic dictates other doctrines.

Circular Reasoning. Dictionaries do that very often.
Just because something is a circular argument does not make it untrue. Many Christians believe the Bible is the ultimate authority. What makes the Bible the ultimate authority is the Bible’s claim to be the ultimate authority. However, this is circular reasoning because the basis of the claim is the claimant itself.

Therefore, in order to avoid circular reasoning, you must find something other than the Bible that proves the Bible is the ultimate authority. However, doing this means that the claims in the Bible are not authoritative, but subject to another source. This makes the other source the ultimate authority because it has authority over the Bible.

My point is this: circular arguments are not, by nature, absolutely false. Sometimes they are necessary.

Then why did the Apostles teach their disciples to pray for the saints passed on?
Scripture, to my knowledge, does not hold this. Instead, I believe this is found in tradition and extra-biblical sources. Tradition and extra-biblical sources are not the Word of God and are not always correct.

What is the source of this teaching?

Who ever advocated that we must petition the Saints and that we couldn't pray to God?
Simple answer: God.

My argument against praying to the saints

Definition of Prayer
To know what prayer is about, one need look no further than Jesus’ teaching on prayer. Let’s look at the Example prayer recorded in Luke 11:2-4.And He said to them, "When you pray, say: 'Father, hallowed be Your name. Your kingdom come. Give us each day our daily bread. And forgive us our sins, For we ourselves also forgive everyone who is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation.'" (NASB)
Three things are taught in this prayer:
Submitting to God’s will; praising him (v. 2)
Seeking God’s provision for physical needs (v. 3)
Seeking God’s provision for spiritual needs (v. 4)
Spiritual need 1: forgiveness from sin
Spiritual need 2: protection from temptation Notice that the asking for provisions includes submitting to God because you are asking him to provide them. In other words, it involves dependence upon God.

Verse 2
The prayer begins by putting the believer in a position of submission. They submit to God when they recognize him as their father, bless his name and not their own, and seek his kingdom to come and not our own. Also, they praise God by blessing his name and asking his kingdom to come quickly.

This makes the prayer an act of worship because it puts us in submission to God, praising him, and depending upon him.

Verse 3
This is a request for the sustaining of physical needs, not physical wants (daily bread, not a week’s worth of bon-bons). Notice that the believer is still in a position of dependence and submission to God, which glorifies and worships him. However, this need is not the one that receives the greatest focus. Verse four shows the greatest need for man.

Verse 4
Jesus puts more emphasis on the spiritual needs: forgiveness and protection. This is impossible to obtain on one’s own, instead requires divine intervention. One cannot ask for these things without submitting to God. It requires a recognition of one’s own sins and repenting of those sins. This, again, is an act of worship because it recognizes that we are sinful, God is righteous, and we need God to forgive us or else we face judgment. Asking for the ability to resist temptation continues to worship and submit to God. It requires the believer recognizes his own inability to resist temptation and his need for God’s help. To ask for God’s help in such a humble, submissive position is an act of worship.

Notice that this prayer (and the one in Matthew 6) include more than just asking for things. Therefore, prayer is not merely asking for things, as some have tried to propose. A fuller, more complete definition of prayer is that it is an act of submissive worship that includes praise, petition, and repentance. Prayer includes petition, but it is not exclusively petition. Prayer is an act of worship.

God Forbids Talking to the Dead
Deut 18:10-12 (NASB) states: “There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, one who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or one who casts a spell, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. For whoever does these things is detestable to the LORD; and because of these detestable things the LORD your God will drive them out before you.”

This verse forbids “call up the dead” because doing so is “detestable” to God. Some may say this only refers to mediums and spiritists because he is describing the activities of these people. However, if this passage was outlining the evil actions of spiritists, mediums, etc. then why lost only one activity? Is all other activity done by these people acceptable? Is this the only detestable action done by these people? Such a conclusion is difficult to sustain.

It is more likely that this is a list of people and actions that are detestable, including anyone who practices the acts of divination, witchcraft, interpreting omens, casting spells, and calling up the dead. Those people who are detestable are sorcerers, mediums, and spiritists.

This means that certain trades are detestable and certain actions are detestable. When someone prays to the dead, he is calling up that dead person because it requires that dead person communicates with a living person somehow. This is forbidden as detestable by God.

Isaiah 8:19 (NASB) states: “When they say to you, ‘Consult the mediums and the spiritists who whisper and mutter,’ should not a people consult their God? Should they consult the dead on behalf of the living?”

Isaiah is addressing a people who have begun trying to find ways to communicate with the dead as a sign of God’s presence. The most common way was by using mediums and spiritists. However, it is the act of seeking to converse with the dead that is in mind here, no matter what method one uses. The question, “should they consult the dead on behalf of the living?” is rhetorical; the answer is no, they should not. What should they do instead? That is addressed in the previous question, “should not a people consult their God?” People should seek God and not dead people to converse with.

To pray to someone other than God is to determine that you either are unable to pray to God or unwilling to pray to God. God is omnipresent and omniscient (see Psalm 119). He is able to hear all prayers. If one is unwilling to pray to God, I would encourage you to ensure that you are saved and know God.

Furthermore, to pray to someone other than God is to say that the person to whom you pray is more worthy of your prayer than God. This puts something before God, which is to create an idol and is sinful. Beyond that, to pray to someone other than God is to say that the person is more able to help you than God is, which is to say that person is greater than God. Again, this puts someone before God and is a sin.

For those who say that they are simply asking someone to take their prayers to God, to have them serve as a mediator in some fashion, need to remember Paul’s words:

“For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” (NASB, 1 Tim 2:5).

There is no one other than Christ who mediates between us and God. To have another person serve as a mediator in any fashion is to say that Paul was wrong, for there are multiple mediators between God and man, depending on the type of mediation.

Some may refer to Romans 8:26, which states, “in the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for [I]us with groanings too deep for words” (NASB) a proof that Christ is not the only mediator. However, the Holy Spirit is God, the saints are not. Also, the Holy Spirit here is not pictured as a heavenly mailman, but is pictured as doing what we are unable to do. The Spirit is not delivering our prayers, but empowering our prayers, transforming them, going beyond our meager attempts so as to make them actually worthy of God. The Holy Spirit is teaching us, enabling us, empowering us… not merely delivering the latest heavenly postal mail.

Furthermore, this Pauline passage reveals that even when we say the right words, we don’t know how to pray all the time. This means that it’s not the words that are said, but the spiritual attitude of the one praying. Prayer, therefore, is not about the mere words, but the submission of the person to God.

Conclusion
Based on the fuller definition of prayer as an act of submissive worship that includes both praise, petition, and repentance, one must realize that one cannot pray to a saint. To pray to a saint means the person is worshiping the saint.

Also, because God forbids trying to communicate with the dead, one cannot pray to the dead. This would require the person communicates with the dead. Such things are detestable to God.

Considering all these things, I must conclude that to try to pray to someone else is to devalue God and promote the saint above God. Such things are idolatry and wrong. Furthermore, nowhere in Scripture do we see anyone praying to the dead. Mark never prayed to Peter; Paul never asked Timothy to pray to him after he died; Luke never prayed to Peter; etc. If such things were to be considered acceptable, one would believe that God would have included at least one instance of someone praying to a dead apostle of Christ. Instead, 1 Chronicles 10:13-14 records the result of King Saul’s attempt to talk to the dead, including the prophet Samuel. God killed Saul. But remember, Saul was seeking Samuel, one of the saints of his day. Yet, God killed Saul because such things are wrong.

I look forward to the understandings of others. I welcome your input on this issue, for it is a worthy discussion.

Ishida

16th July 2007, 01:04 AM

All this patron saint stuff sounds similar to... pagan beliefs, at least to me. And aren't all of us commited to Christ saints? I'm confused now. >_<;

lionroar0

17th July 2007, 11:40 PM

God Forbids Talking to the Dead
Deut 18:10-12 (NASB) states: “There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, one who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or one who casts a spell, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. For whoever does these things is detestable to the LORD; and because of these detestable things the LORD your God will drive them out before you.”

This verse forbids “call[ing] up the dead” because doing so is “detestable” to God. Some may say this only refers to mediums and spiritists because he is describing the activities of these people. However, if this passage was outlining the evil actions of spiritists, mediums, etc. then why lost only one activity? Is all other activity done by these people acceptable? Is this the only detestable action done by these people? Such a conclusion is difficult to sustain.

St. Luke, Patron of Iconography and Author of the first icon, pray for us.

Saint Valentine, Patron Saint of Fainting, pray for Cribstyl.

St. Michael the Archangel, pray for us and defend us from heresy and sin.
St. Mary the Theotokos, pray for us and help us understand our salvation better.
Sts. Peter and Paul, pray for us and be as guides as to how to strive along the Way through persecution, even unto martyrdom.
St. Joseph the Betrothed, my Patron Saint and Patron of protectors, educations, doubters, and living faith, pray for us, and protect the Church, educate the faithful, strengthen the doubters, and show us how to live a living faith of belief and works so that we can have a holy death.

Then show us where in the above quotes paladinvader has: Called up the dead, used witchcraft, an omen ect..

then why lost only one activity? Is all other activity done by these people acceptable? Is this the only detestable action done by these people?

The above is pure conjecture and has no basis in facts.

Based on the fuller definition of prayer as an act of submissive worship that includes both praise, petition, and repentance, one must realize that one cannot pray to a saint. To pray to a saint means the person is worshiping the saint.

Based on your definition we should only pray to God the Father and not to God the Son or the Holy Spirit who are fully God. Also according to your definition we should not ask other christians to pray with and for us to God the Father.

It is not a fuller definion.

We are not the one's causing the confusion but rather those with the innovative definion of prayer.

It is not up to the Apostolics to show that prayer does not mean only worship but also to ask. We have held this definion for 2000yrs.

It is up to the opposition to show that prayer means only worship since it's an inovative definition and innovative position.
Peace

E.C.

17th July 2007, 11:42 PM

All this patron saint stuff sounds similar to... pagan beliefs, at least to me. And aren't all of us commited to Christ saints? I'm confused now. >_<;
Actually, Orthodox venerate (honor) the Saints and simply ask for them to pray to God for us.

Think of asking your friend to pray for you. Same principle really.

LivingWordUnity

21st July 2007, 03:48 PM

1) We are to mark the Saints and to Imitate Them
Phil. 3:17

2) We are to pray for each other
James 5:16

3) Death does not separate us from God
John 8:51
Eph. 3:15
Luke 23:43
Luke 20:37-38
Matt. 22:32
Mark 12:26-27
Hebrews 12:1 (We are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses)

4) Angels and Saints are in Heaven and Interceding for us, taking our Prayers to God
Matt. 18:10
Rev. 5:1-8
Rev. 8:3-4

Being a Christian means being a part of the big family of God and the Saints. Jesus said when we pray we should pray the words "Our Father..." He didn't say to pray "My Father..."

The "It's just Me and Jesus against the world" attitude is very selfish and unbiblical.

jesusmyhealer

31st July 2007, 06:03 AM

Hey Mate:thumbsup:

I've been raised a Catholic and I understand where you are coming from.

Being Italian and Catholic I know individuals who pray more to the saints than they do to God and I know how you feel, it's quite disturbing.

People who are not familiar with these saint worshipping rituals cannot understand it unless they have had dealings with it like you and I.

Just remember that your Grandma is Catholic and you need to respect that and worshipping saints or whatever they do is part of their belief.

I don't know if your mishaps in life are as a result of her belief in saints :sorry:

I don't know about your country but here in Australia, some of the Italian/Catholics are the biggest hypocretes I have ever met and I can say that coz I am Italian and I grew up with Catholics, in a Catholic school and my brother-in-law is a Catholic priest :sick:

Now you know why I have changed philosophy.

Notice I said Some ok so nobody start hounding me for this statement - thanks :D
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CrystalBrooke

31st July 2007, 08:54 AM

Either you're not familiar with it either or you made a typo twice...it's not worship. I would like to know why people equate prayer with worship..they're not the same thing.:scratch:

E.C.

31st July 2007, 09:58 AM

Tis not worship, tis honoring.

jesusmyhealer

31st July 2007, 07:12 PM

Who cares, worship, praise, glorify makes no diff, they still give credit to these saints and they believe in them!

You have to know them to understand.

They wear medals of saints around their neck, you walk into their house and they even have statues of them.

Capish?

E.C.

31st July 2007, 08:37 PM

That is a Western Christianity thing, not an Eastern Christianity thing.

Besides, we don't have statues, have icons!

Really, it is honoring and asking the Saints to pray for us. No different from asking a friend to pray for you.

JamesThaddeusMartin

31st August 2007, 08:18 PM

Who cares, worship, praise, glorify makes no diff, they still give credit to these saints and they believe in them!

Seriously its not worship and remember that they are alive in Christ, even more alive than we are and wherever Christ is, they are there also.

.

GratiaCorpusChristi

31st August 2007, 10:10 PM

Seriously its not worship and remember that they are alive in Christ, even more alive than we are and wherever Christ is, they are there also.

.
Methinks we have a new friend...

E.C.

31st August 2007, 11:16 PM

Seriously its not worship and remember that they are alive in Christ, even more alive than we are and wherever Christ is, they are there also.

.
:hug:

icedragon101

1st September 2007, 09:50 PM

If the rapture is true why did no one believe before the the early 1800's, It did not became popular before DL moody in the late 1800's

PioMagnus

3rd September 2007, 10:18 PM

If the rapture is true why did no one believe before the the early 1800's, It did not became popular before DL moody in the late 1800's

Off topic much?

The simple answer is "It isn't true." Sounds like on of those traditions of men we hear about. Or one of those strange teachings Hebrews talks about.

Rick Otto

4th September 2007, 03:34 AM

Tis not worship, tis honoring.
C'mon, don't be shy! Say it loud & proud... "Dulia"!:clap:

Originally Posted by BenedicamusDomino: Seriously its not worship and remember that they are alive in Christ, even more alive than we are and wherever Christ is, they are there also.

More? Wherever?
I'd like to believe that too! Can you show me which scripture tells me that, please?:cool:

JamesThaddeusMartin

4th September 2007, 08:52 AM

More? Wherever?
I'd like to believe that too! Can you show me which scripture tells me that, please?

I'm not sure I understand what youre asking, Rick. Are you asking if I can show you in Scripture that the faithful departed are with Christ?

or...?

Rick Otto

4th September 2007, 09:07 AM

You said they are more alive, & with Him wherever Christ is.
:cool:

JamesThaddeusMartin

4th September 2007, 09:25 AM

You said they are more alive, & with Him wherever Christ is.

thats easy then. The faithful departed can not die again, therefore only life (more alive is as an expression - fully alive, not to die) and since they are with Christ, well they are with Him, He in them, they in Him. I mean, how can the head be separated from the body?

see

Rick Otto

4th September 2007, 09:32 AM

I just did the math differently, I guess. Having both a spirit AND a body, I counted myself "more" alive, not necessarily happier, but more alive, see what I mean?
And I do the math differently on the other point as well.
He being wherever 2 or 3 are gathered in His name, rather than everybody who is the body being with Him equaly only in a figurative sense, but more or less with Him in a literal sense.
It's too early to be picky.
Coffee smells like it's ready!
"I'll be Bach" :cool: -Arnold Schwarzenegger

JamesThaddeusMartin

4th September 2007, 10:31 AM

No scripture? Ok... Once we are with Christ in paradise, would you say that one could fall then? Do you believe that life as we have it now is the fullest understanding of what it is to be with Christ in the Kingdom? get my direction here?

But you want Scripture that says we are with Christ...ok

Jesus' words in Luke 20:37, 38, where He states: "But even Moses showed in the burning bush passage that the dead are raised, when he called the Lord 'the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.' For He is not the God of the dead but of the living, for all live in Him".
Jesus' promise to the thief on the cross: "Today you will be with Me in Paradise" (Luke 23:43).there are more but I suppose that this wont satisfy. I mean everything is glorified in heaven and that would mean even our relationship with our Lord. We are always with Him, and He always with us. Through Him, we know. That is why I say "wherever" as being always with Him, no separation in a glorified state. Unless you feel that this temporal life is no different that the life to come?

Rick Otto

4th September 2007, 10:56 AM

BenedicamusDomino;Once we are with Christ in paradise, would you say that one could fall then?
"Fall" is too severe a word to fit the case issue over what can be a matter of degree in "wherever" & "more", & since we can lose our rewards in heaven without losing our ticket there, it is easy to imagine for example, you having a mansion & me living under a bridge up there. Plus the fact that there are seating arrangements there described in scripture, that show favor & degrees of more or less closeness to Him which might affect one's relative feeling of "being alive".

Do you believe that life as we have it now is the fullest understanding of what it is to be with Christ in the Kingdom? get my direction here?
Life as you have it is different from life as I have it.
We even differ on fundamental understandings of what it means to be with Christ, or we wouldn't exclude each other in so many ways.

But you want Scripture that says we are with Christ...ok
No! I wanted scripture that says departed saints are more alive & that they are with Him wherever He goes.
Just admitting it is all figurative speech & subjective opinion would dismiss my desire for scripture by rendering it purely optional as a belief!:)

I mean everything is glorified in heaven and that would mean even our relationship with our Lord. We are always with Him, and He always with us. Through Him, we know. That is why I say "wherever" as being always with Him, no separation in a glorified state. Unless you feel that this temporal life is no different that the life to come?

In some ways, in a limited sense, it is no different. In other ways it is completely different. All is glorified in heaven, but without glorified flesh, which if I'm not mistaken, nobody gets until at least after the 2nd coming & a resurrection. Do any suffer in heaven? It could be argued to share in His suffering here in the body is in at least one sense, a way we are "more alive". If being at risk of death makes one feel "more alive", then to be safe in heaven might feel less alive in that sense, even if rewards up there make one to feel "more alive' in another sense.
Did that make any sense, bro?:scratch:

JamesThaddeusMartin

4th September 2007, 11:52 AM

No! I wanted scripture that says departed saints are more alive & that they are with Him wherever He goes.

I still think this is rather simple. There is no death in heaven, when with Christ there will be no separation. there is both physical death and possible spiritual death here in this temporal life, or separation. We will be in the presence of God, in the kingdom to its fullest in every way (provided we have remained in Him as Paul says) to which we have not yet attained in this life. No separation, no death, fullness as we have not experienced, nor can imagine (as scripture tells us), alive as never before. Since God is everywhere we will be with Him in this glorified state of life.

loveiseverywhere

27th November 2007, 06:22 PM

I just have one question. What bible do people who pray to saints read?

Albion

28th November 2007, 06:04 PM

I just have one question. What bible do people who pray to saints read?

Various ones, but since even they do not argue that praying to deceased humans or angels is based upon the Bible, it really doesn't matter.

Their contention rests upon two other (and nonBiblical) sources: Logic and Tradition.

restlesslilly

6th December 2007, 05:48 AM

I just have one question. What bible do people who pray to saints read?
The one they wrote and put together. Which is the same one you use.

CrystalBrooke

6th December 2007, 11:24 AM

I just have one question. What bible do people who pray to saints read?

The KJV, the NIV, the NAB, the NKJV, the Douey Rheims (I think I spelled it right) which is kinda like the KJV....there are many versions of the Bible to read.;)

Kristin364

9th December 2007, 08:01 PM

PaladinValer

9th December 2007, 08:56 PM

My pastor says that any prayer to a saint or to Mary or any other human is a waste of breath - and I agree. These people were all humans - they can't hear your prayers in heaven. They can't do anything about your prayers. Pray to God. Why would you want to pray to anybody else?

1. Prayer is something more than vocal; it is spiritual. It goes through the spirit, and goes through the Holy Spirit. Is the Holy Spirit not with all the Baptized? Is the Holy Spirit "deaf"?

2. I hope you don't ever ask anyone to pray for you, if that is what you truly believe.

Rick Otto

10th December 2007, 02:24 PM

Ah! The Holy Spirit Switchboard!
Does it offer call waiting?

IgnatiusOfAntioch

10th December 2007, 04:52 PM

Ah! The Holy Spirit Switchboard!
Does it offer call waiting?

There are plenty of examples in the bible of humans on earth communicating with the heavenly hosts. Besides, to absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. I believe those present with the Lord can ask Him for anything. Why those in the Church Triumphant not ask for good things for those who are still in the Church Militant?

HisKid1973

11th December 2007, 02:35 PM

But I can physically ask someone to interceed for me...I know for sure when I pray to the Lord He hears..I know because the sacred scriptures tell me so.I am not told in the scriptures that they who are absent with the body and present with the Lord have that same ability to hear like Father God /Jesus, since they are not physically present to communicate with..I also know we are surrounded by a cloud od witnesses but there is no indication of communication with them in that realm... .I see how prayer is given in scripture so I will just be content praying to the Lord.. He will answer as He sees fit no matter if I go thru someone with heavenly pull or I go straight to the Lord... I don't think I will be faulted for just going straight to the top with my prayers and intercessions....BTW When we see communications with angels they were in our realm and used the language spoken and when they were bowed before they were warned not to do it...There were experiences in this realm or they were taken to another realm is the transfiguration..shalom....K

plmarquette

11th December 2007, 05:55 PM

My grandmother is Catholic and prays to the saints. I've heard her "favorite saint" is St. Jude. :sick:

Do you want to know something else? She has terrible health problems: stomach problems, headaches, coughing, she is hardly ever feeling well, she recently had a knot in one of her ovaries and had to have it removed. :(

My grandmother took me and my brothers and sister to pray for my parents, since they were having marital problems. She took us to a small Catholic "church" about a year ago. It was just a one-room small building in which you bought a candle, lit it, said a prayer in front of a small statue of Jesus and many pictures of the saints, then set the candle there.

If I had known back then that that was idolatry, which it was, one, because Jesus said make no image of Himself so to not subtract from His glory, and two, because the placing the candle there is equal to sacrificing to a false god on an altar, then I would not have participated in it. By the way, that small little building was hit by a truck, which went through the fence and smashed a giant hole in the wall of it.

And do you know that since then, very recently, my parents have gotten a divorce. :cry: And also I've had religious OCD-like spiritual attacks and pervasive bad thoughts about God.

So if you think praying to angels and the saints or Mary is okay, think again. You are cursing yourself your family and opening yourselves up to demonic attack.
what about the lamp stand and the show bread in the holy place in Moses tabernacle.... or the incense ....
symbols of the prayers of the saints ... the 12 tribes ... as were the 12 stones in the breast plate of the high priest...

if some one was a devout christian and died in the grace of God and he was in heaven at the throne... would it hurt to ask him to put in a good word for you ?

pray at all times and in all sorts of prayers ... romans 8

.... people get hung up on what the centurion said ... lord, I am not worthy .... and neglect 1 John 1.8-9 ..

Jesus told all who were healed ... great is your faith , be it done according to your faith ... your faith has healed you ...

could you not take her to the station of the cross where Jesus is scourged at the pillar and explain Isaiah 53.3 , Matthew 8.17 and 1 peter 2.24 ... by his stripes, past tense, you were healed...

Rick Otto

12th December 2007, 12:55 AM

...would it hurt to ask him to put in a good word for you ?
You mean it's like Chicken Soup... couldn't hoit?;)

Well, I just don't see an example, like the one you say there are so many of, where someone asks something of someone who is physicaly deceased, except maybe Saul & his encounter with Samuel at the witch's place. It didn't turn out so well.
Did you have a particular example in mind?

Albion

12th December 2007, 12:44 PM

if some one was a devout christian and died in the grace of God and he was in heaven at the throne... would it hurt to ask him to put in a good word for you ?

A. What makes you think they can hear you?
B. Why use such an intermediary at all, considering that Jesus--
..........1. advised those who asked him about prayer to address them to the Father,
..........2. the Father is waiting to hear from us and will give us whatever we need if we only ask, and
..........3. he (Jesus) is himself our mediator with the Father?

Mikeb85

15th December 2007, 05:11 AM

I just have one question. What bible do people who pray to saints read?

The early church (which is now the Catholic and Orthodox churches) are the ones who decided which books would be in the 'Bible' (prior to that churches just had a collection of writings from which to read).

They are the ones who decided which books would be in YOUR Bible.

You know, it's funny. I was raised in a non-denominational/baptist Bible, and all the time would hear the arguments against the apostolic churches. Yet the same people who criticize those churches, read from Bibles that were put together by those churches.

If you believe the apostolic churches are wrong, then how can you trust the validity of the Bible itself?

Kolya

27th December 2007, 08:17 AM

A. What makes you believe they can't hear you.

B. Have you never called your Pastor or Elder to pray for you or your family or a loved one who was ill or wandering into sin? We'll, we Apostolic Churches (I'm EO) believe that the Saints are still part of our Church. Therefore they can pray for us the same way my fellow brothers and sisters in the faith in the local Parish would pray for me. BTW, all prayers are directed to the Father. When we pray to the Saints, it's the equal of calling someone up on the phone or emailing them to pray for us.
And God the Father hears all the prayers, whether offered on my behalf by an earthly church member or a heavenly one.

Albion

27th December 2007, 09:26 PM

A. What makes you believe they can't hear you.

The question was this: What makes you or anyone think they CAN?

They are not alive in the flesh, after all, and the Bible gives no hint at all that they can hear us, so since there is no Biblical or logical reason to think they can...why would you?

B. Have you never called your Pastor or Elder to pray for you or your family or a loved one who was ill or wandering into sin?

They are all living in the flesh. The question concerned the dead--and you know what it meant by that so let's not go down the "they are alive!--in the spirit world, etc." route.

we Apostolic Churches (I'm EO) believe that the Saints are still part of our Church.

Irrelevant to the question. They can be part of our Church without hearing our prayers.

Therefore they can pray for us the same way my fellow brothers and sisters in the faith in the local Parish would pray for me.

Non-sequitur. There is nothing in that which suggests that they can except that you said they could.

BTW, all prayers are directed to the Father. [/qutoe]

No, they're not. It is easy to prove that they are directed to Mary or St. Jude or some other saint merely by citing the wording used which normally says that it is being addressed to the saint, not to God, and stipulates that the saint will grant the request, not God.

[quote]When we pray to the Saints, it's the equal of calling someone up on the phone or emailing them to pray for us.

No, the two are so different it's almost silly to have to point out how the two are not the same.

And God the Father hears all the prayers, whether offered on my behalf by an earthly church member or a heavenly one.

So, why not pray to him? Serious question. Why pray to someone other than God if God is your intended recipient??

Jet_A_Jockey

28th December 2007, 06:07 AM

If those who have passed on have the ability to hear and respond to prayers then in order to do so they must have the ability of omnipresence. And sorry to say but I believe when I am in the presence of the Father that the last thing on my mind is whether or not little sally gets a dog for christmas. :wave:

Catholic Christian

8th January 2008, 05:12 PM

peace to you
from Catholic Crusader

In Catholic understanding, prayer is a "request". When we pray to those who have gone to heaven ahead of us, we are making a "request" of them. And what is that request? It is that THEY pray for US. Protestants do it all the time, but they limit themselves to making this request only of people still on earth. In this, the protestant view of the Church is very narrow. You see, Romans 8: 38-39 says: "neither death nor life.. ..present nor the future.. ..height nor depth.. ..will be able to separate us...".; The Family of God transcends death. We ALL LIVE IN CHRIST.

It is important to note that praying to saints is not a requirement of Catholics, just an option: Just as a protestant doesnt HAVE to ask a friend to pray for them, but they can
Heb 12: 22-24 says that as we approach God, Jesus and the angels, we also approach "the spirits of righteous men made perfect". In other words, THE SAINTS

BUT, can they Hear Us? Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. For example, in Revelation 5:8, John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.

Oh, the intercession of fellow Christians in heaven also clearly does not interfere with Christ’s unique mediatorship because in the four verses immediately preceding 1 Timothy 2:5, Paul says that Christians should interceed: "First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:1–4). Clearly, intercessory prayers offered by Christians on behalf of others is something "good and pleasing to God"

Biblical references:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp

Catholic Christian

8th January 2008, 05:15 PM

I believe when I am in the presence of the Father that the last thing on my mind is whether or not little sally gets a dog for christmas. :wave:

When you are in heaven, the FIRST thing on your mind will be to do what is pleasing to God, and the Bible says the interceeding for others is PLEASING to God:

1 Timothy 2:1-4: "First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior...." (1 Tim. 2:1–4)

Clearly, intercessory prayers offered by Christians on behalf of others is something "good and pleasing to God"
:crosseo:

Brennin

8th January 2008, 05:41 PM

Invocation of the saints is superfluous but I do not see a great deal of harm in it; I think the kakodox (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Cacodoxy) assertions that Mary is theotokos and "queen of heaven" are of greater concern.

Catholic Christian

8th January 2008, 06:10 PM

pax vobis from
the Catholic Crusader

Invocation of the saints is superfluous but I do not see a great deal of harm in it; I think the kakodox (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Cacodoxy) assertions that Mary is theotokos and "queen of heaven" are of greater concern.

To understand Mary's Queenship, you must understand Jewish culture. In the Davidic Kingdom, the mother of the King was always the Queen. The word in MIddle Eastern nations for this was the "Gabirah", or "queen mother".

Likewise, Jesus is the "son of David" and is the new King. It goes without saying, therefore, that his mother is the queen - the Gabirah. Any Jew would know that, ESPECIALLY the apostles.

Understanding Mary as queen mother sheds light on her important intercessory role in the Christian life. Just like the queen mother of the Davidic kingdom, Mary serves as advocate for the people in the Kingdom of God today. Thus, we should approach our queen mother with confidence, knowing that she carries our petitions to her royal son and that he responds to her as Solomon did to Bathsheba: "I will never refuse you."

I suggest you read this link:
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1998/9812fea2.asp (http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1998/9812fea2.asp)

Brennin

8th January 2008, 08:51 PM

pax vobis from
the Catholic Crusader

To understand Mary's Queenship, you must understand Jewish culture. In the Davidic Kingdom, the mother of the King was always the Queen. The word in MIddle Eastern nations for this was the "Gabirah", or "queen mother".

Likewise, Jesus is the "son of David" and is the new King. It goes without saying, therefore, that his mother is the queen - the Gabirah. Any Jew would know that, ESPECIALLY the apostles.

Understanding Mary as queen mother sheds light on her important intercessory role in the Christian life. Just like the queen mother of the Davidic kingdom, Mary serves as advocate for the people in the Kingdom of God today. Thus, we should approach our queen mother with confidence, knowing that she carries our petitions to her royal son and that he responds to her as Solomon did to Bathsheba: "I will never refuse you."

I suggest you read this link:
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1998/9812fea2.asp (http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1998/9812fea2.asp)
I am aware of that weak Roman Catholic apologia. Not only does Jeremiah specifically condemn the title "queen of heaven" but if you look at 1 Kings 2 when "the queen mother" is asked to intercede with the king on behalf of a petitioner the king becomes angry and executes him. Thus we see Roman Catholic apologia (on this point) contains the seed of its own refutation, as is usually the case with false doctrines.

Rick Otto

8th January 2008, 08:59 PM

"It goes without saying"
I always love hearing that.;)

Albion

9th January 2008, 11:39 AM

When you are in heaven, the FIRST thing on your mind will be to do what is pleasing to God, and the Bible says the interceeding for others is PLEASING to God:

1 Timothy 2:1-4: "First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior...." (1 Tim. 2:1–4)

Clearly, intercessory prayers offered by Christians on behalf of others is something "good and pleasing to God"

You're making the same old mistake that has been cautioned against time and time again.

-Praying FOR someone is good.

-Praying TO someone other than God is not.

-Praying FOR someone and Praying TO someone are two entirely different things.

Catholic Christian

9th January 2008, 12:47 PM

You're making the same old mistake that has been cautioned against time and time again.

-Praying FOR someone is good.

-Praying TO someone other than God is not.

-Praying FOR someone and Praying TO someone are two entirely different things.

You say I am making a mistake. I say that it is YOU who are making the mistake. When we behold the Face of God, we will see who has made the mistake.

Albion

9th January 2008, 02:12 PM

You say I am making a mistake.
That's correct. You are making a mistake with this.

But the important fact of the matter is that I have shown why you are incorrect.

The Bible does not advise praying to the dead and gives no example of that being done. Moreover, you misunderstood the question itself, speaking as though praying TO someone is the same as praying FOR someone.

When we behold the Face of God, we will see who has made the mistake.
Of course. But you will still be saved so long as you accept Christ as your Lord and personal Savior. The mistake over praying to the dead will not supercede that, wrong as it is.

Catholic Christian

9th January 2008, 05:48 PM

That's correct. You are making a mistake with this.

But the important fact of the matter is that I have shown why you are incorrect.

The Bible does not advise praying to the dead and gives no example of that being done. Moreover, you misunderstood the question itself, speaking as though praying TO someone is the same as praying FOR someone.

Of course. But you will still be saved so long as you accept Christ as your Lord and personal Savior. The mistake over praying to the dead will not supercede that, wrong as it is.
You have shown me no such thing. But I do admire your zeal. God bless.

Albion

9th January 2008, 07:30 PM

You have shown me no such thing.

I think you mean that you refuse to acknowledge it.

A verse that says we should pray for others obviously does not say pray to them, and if there were some way that these opposites could be reconciled, I'm sure you'd have pointed to it.

Technocrat2010

14th January 2008, 04:24 PM

That's correct. You are making a mistake with this.

But the important fact of the matter is that I have shown why you are incorrect.

The Bible does not advise praying to the dead and gives no example of that being done. Moreover, you misunderstood the question itself, speaking as though praying TO someone is the same as praying FOR someone.

Of course. But you will still be saved so long as you accept Christ as your Lord and personal Savior. The mistake over praying to the dead will not supercede that, wrong as it is.

So the saints are not with God, by your argument; am I right? Isn't God the God of the LIVING and not the dead?

mont974x4

14th January 2008, 05:27 PM

Catholic Christian

14th January 2008, 11:58 PM

AMEN!!
Oh man, not the old "when in doubt, toss in an Amen" shtick.

mont974x4

15th January 2008, 12:55 PM

no doubt and no schtick...just a hardy agreement

Catholic Christian

15th January 2008, 01:17 PM

no doubt and no schtick...just a hardy agreement
okay

Lilmissykato

17th January 2008, 09:43 PM

If that counts as proof I have your counter evidence- my saints help me. I have four saints, Jude being one of them. I got severly sick last year and almost passed out in Mass. The next day I got a saint bernadette pray card in the mail. That week, with out meds, I got better.

GratiaCorpusChristi

17th January 2008, 10:01 PM

Funny, since I began praying with the Blessed Virgin and the saints (never to, but with) to our Father, I'm had a richer spirituality than any time in my charismatic evangelical years .

Lilmissykato

17th January 2008, 10:08 PM

Saints are my extended family

Athanasias

24th January 2008, 06:19 PM

Catholic Christian

26th January 2008, 04:53 PM

1. When did Jesus tell the Apostles to write the New Testament? He didn't, according to the Bible.
2. When did Jesus specifically use the word, "Trinity" He didn't, according to the Bible.

So when people ask "when did Jesus tell us to pray to Mary", and other such simplistic observations, my reply is "He didn't, and it doesn't matter." The point is that there are Biblical "principals" on which Christian teachings are based. Not everything is “specifically” stated in black and white in the Scriptures. As I said, the word "Trinity" is not in the Bible but most Christians believe in the Trinity.

So, what about prayer to Mary and the saints in heaven? Those in heaven pray with us and for us, as in the book of Revelation when John sees that "the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5:8). A prayer is a request. When we pray to Mary and the saints in heaven, we are asking them to pray for us, the same way non-Catholic Christians ask their friends or family to pray for them.
Question: When you ask your friends or family to pray for you, does that take away from Jesus or his role as mediator? Of course not, and neither does praying to our brother and sisters in heaven. Because he is the only God-man and the Mediator of the New Covenant, Jesus is the only mediator between man and God (1 Tim. 2:5), but this in no way means we cannot or should not ask our fellow Christians to pray with us and for us (1 Tim. 2:1–4). In particular, we should ask the intercession of those Christians in heaven, who have already had their sanctification completed, for "[t]he prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects" (Jas. 5:16). The family of God transcends death: You are still a Christian even when you are in heaven, and you can still pray for your brothers and sisters when you are there. Catholics believe Jesus when he says, "He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive" (Luke 20:38).

Hebrews 12: 22-24 says that as we approach God, Jesus and the angels, we also approach "the spirits of righteous men made perfect". In other words, THE SAINTS. "But they can't hear us" you may say. Wrong. As Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. For example, in Revelation 5:8, John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.

I invite people to read this information:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.as

Albion

26th January 2008, 10:41 PM

1. When did Jesus tell the Apostles to write the New Testament? He didn't, according to the Bible.

But they did and we all acknowledge it, so that's a point without a point.

2. When did Jesus specifically use the word, "Trinity" He didn't, according to the Bible.

Again, this doesn't mean anything since no one cares that the word "Trinity" is not in the Bible so long as the concept is plainly there, which it is (unlike most doctrines from Tradition).

So when people ask "when did Jesus tell us to pray to Mary", and other such simplistic observations, my reply is "He didn't, and it doesn't matter." The point is that there are Biblical "principals" on which Christian teachings are based. Not everything is “specifically” stated in black and white in the Scriptures.

What you are missing is that we all agree that the Bible is the word of God. We do not agree that human traditions are that.

So, what about prayer to Mary and the saints in heaven? Those in heaven pray with us and for us, as in the book of Revelation when John sees that "the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5:8).

You have defended the idea that saints pray FOR us, not that we are right to pray TO them. Those are two totally different ideas.

Additionally, it is a very poor theory that says that if it is NOT in the Bible, it's all right to consider it something binding upon disciples. If that were to be taken seriously, there would be no end of legends and occultish nonsense that would have to be defended as true on the basis of your logic, i.e. if it's not there, it must be true.

Technocrat2010

26th January 2008, 10:45 PM

But they did and we all acknowledge it, so that's a point without a point.

And how do we know they did write them? That these letters and gospels are, in fact, inspired?

Again, this doesn't mean anything since no one cares that the word "Trinity" is not in the Bible so long as the concept is plainly there, which it is (unlike most doctrines from Tradition).

"plainly" is a matter of perspective, since there is no verse that explicitly describes the Trinity. That's how Arius got away with denying it and, from an SS perspective, he was justified.

What you are missing is that we all agree that the Bible is the word of God. We do not agree that human traditions are that.

The problem you see to miss is that we disagree on how do we know the Bible is the word of God. The only way to do that is to look at the Tradition you disagree with.

You have defended the idea that saints pray FOR us, not that we are right to pray TO them. Those are two totally different ideas.

When you ask your family/friends to pray for you, you are praying to them. Prayer - OE "ask" - and it's still one of its definitions.

Additionally, it is a very poor theory that says that if it is NOT in the Bible, it's all right to consider it something binding upon disciples. If that were to be taken seriously, there would be no end of legends and occultish nonsense that would have to be defended as true on the basis of your logic, i.e. if it's not there, it must be true.

Straw-man. No one is making such a claim.

Albion

26th January 2008, 10:55 PM

And how do we know they did write them? That these letters and gospels are, in fact, inspired?

You are not required to. I assumed that you do because your church does. But on the other hand, if you do not, then there is basis for all the arguments that you have already posted. So do you or not?

"plainly" is a matter of perspective, since there is no verse that explicitly describes the Trinity. That's how Arius got away with denying it and, from an SS perspective, he was justified.

Nice try, but that's not correct at all. Arius' contention was not Sola Scriptura; his was based upon an interpretation of Scripture, just as the rest of the Church did when reaching a different conclusion.

The problem you see to miss is that we disagree on how do we know the Bible is the word of God. The only way to do that is to look at the Tradition you disagree with.

That is your theory. The Bible can very well be studied and received without in any way bringing traditions or Tradition into the issue.

When you ask your family/friends to pray for you, you are praying to them. Prayer - OE "ask" - and it's still one of its definitions.

'One of it's definitions,' huh? By that reasoning, we could alter almost every doctrine we have in the Christian faith by finding some popular alternative meaning for the words involved. It's an exercise in self-delusion. Praying to those dead in the flesh is not the dead praying for us. Anyone can understand that, even those who can't bring themselves to admit it.

Straw-man. No one is making such a claim.

The post I replied to did make such a claim.

DazedHard

27th January 2008, 12:13 AM

I pray to my statues every day because the priest anointed them with holy water and they are holy.

Technocrat2010

27th January 2008, 12:19 AM

You are not required to. I assumed that you do because your church does. But on the other hand, if you do not, then there is basis for all the arguments that you have already posted. So do you or not?

I do know. I'm asking you - how do you know?

Nice try, but that's not correct at all. Arius' contention was not Sola Scriptura; his was based upon an interpretation of Scripture, just as the rest of the Church did when reaching a different conclusion.

Using the scriptures alone, Arius came to his conclusions. I never suggested he propsed SS; but his conclusions were based from an SS approach.

That is your theory. The Bible can very well be studied and received without in any way bringing traditions or Tradition into the issue.

Basically you're saying to take the Bible entirely out of historical context; am I correct? Basically, you'd have to develop your doctrine, on your own, without any influence from anyone else - am I correct?

'One of it's definitions,' huh? By that reasoning, we could alter almost every doctrine we have in the Christian faith by finding some popular alternative meaning for the words involved. It's an exercise in self-delusion. Praying to those dead in the flesh is not the dead praying for us. Anyone can understand that, even those who can't bring themselves to admit it.

That is the definition it was primarily used for. (I.e. - "I pray [to] thee...") We pray to the saints, who are alive in Heaven, to pray for us to God. Just as you pray to your family/friends to pray for you to God.

The post I replied to did make such a claim.

Quote? Which part of it?

sunlover1

27th January 2008, 01:29 AM

Why do we Pray to saints? What does the bible show us?
Praying to Saints

The word Pray has a broad meaning, Any dictionary will show this. It can mean worship or communication to God. Or it can also mean to simply "ask another human being". The word itself comes from Prithie Or I pray thee, or I ask you.
pray (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=pray) http://www.etymonline.com/graphics/dictionary.gif (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=pray) c.1290, "ask earnestly, beg," also "pray to a god or saint," from O.Fr. preier (c.900), from L. precari "ask earnestly, beg," from *prex (plural preces, gen. precis) "prayer, request, entreaty," from PIE base *prek- "to ask, request, entreat" (cf. Skt. prasna-, Avestan frashna- "question;" O.C.S. prositi, Lith. prasyti "to ask, beg;" O.H.G. frahen, Ger. fragen, O.E. fricgan "to ask" a question). Prayer (c.1300) is from O.Fr. preiere, from V.L. *precaria, noun use of L. precaria, fem. of adj. precarius "obtained by prayer," from precari.
When a Catholic prays to God he is asking God to help him and he is also worshiping God. But when a Catholic prays to Mary or the Saints, they are simply "Asking" those saints to pray for them to God. Just like you would ask your Christian friends(the body of Christ on earth) to pray for you we Catholics also ask our departed brothers(the body of Christ in heaven) to pray for us. We do this for several reasons.
What does it mean to pray to the dead?

1) We do not believe that Christ has two bodies(one in heaven and one on earth) we believe that there is only One body of Christ(Eph 4:4). That one body exist in both heaven and on earth.
Makes sense.

2) We believe that God wants his Body to pray and intercede for eachother(1 Tim 2:1)

Amen

3) We believe that the prayers of the righteous man avails much(James 5:16)
and who is more righteous than those in heaven?

We arent as "righteous" as them?
We all got our righeousness from the same God,
in the same way.

4) We believe that those in heaven hear our prayers to them and offer them up like incense before Gods heavenly Throne(Rev 5:8) on our behalf.
That's the angels that do that.

We do not worship saints. We worship God alone!
Excellent plan.

Gods Bless you all in Jesus through Mary,
Yikes, no thank you.
God doesnt go through mary to bless me.
Maybe i misunderstood you.
:thumbsup:
sunlover

Albion

27th January 2008, 12:14 PM

I do know.

Then tell me. That way I won't be making any assumptions that you obviously don't want me to be making.

Using the scriptures alone, Arius came to his conclusions. I never suggested he propsed SS; but his conclusions were based from an SS approach.

That's illogical, sorry. Either he used SS or he didn't. You can't have this both ways any more than one can be partly pregnant. I appreciate the concession that Sola Scriptura is older than Martin Luther, correct or not. Usually, Catholics insist that no one ever thought of basing his beliefs on the Word of God prior to the Reformation.

But here's the main point: to make an interpretation of a passage or passages in scripture is NOT Sola Scriptura. There are a number of passages in scripture that the Roman Church has used to establish one or another doctrine, absent claims from Tradition, and you are not calling that a "SS approach," I'm sure. Sola Scriptura is an approach to the Bible in total.

Basically you're saying to take the Bible entirely out of historical context; am I correct? [quote]

No.

[quote]Basically, you'd have to develop your doctrine, on your own, without any influence from anyone else - am I correct?

No.

That is the definition it was primarily used for. (I.e. - "I pray [to] thee...") We pray to the saints, who are alive in Heaven, to pray for us to God. Just as you pray to your family/friends to pray for you to God.

Except that it is NOT "just as." The situations are totally different, and since you are a fan of context, apply some of that here.

Catholic Christian

27th January 2008, 12:31 PM

You have defended the idea that saints pray FOR us, not that we are right to pray TO them. Those are two totally different ideas.

That depends on how you define "prayer". A prayer is a request. In that sense, we are "requesting" that our brothers & sisters in heaven pray for us.

In fairness, I understand that some non-Catholics equate prayer with worship, and therefore feel that we are somehow giving to the saints that which is due God alone.

As is often the case, we have a "terminology divide" between us.

Albion

27th January 2008, 12:41 PM

That depends on how you define "prayer". A prayer is a request. In that sense, we are "requesting" that our brothers & sisters in heaven pray for us.

That doesn't change anything, although I'd point out that you do not merely request that your brothers and sisters presumed to be in heaven pray for you. They are often, if not always, considered to be able to fulfill the requests on their own.

In fairness, I understand that some non-Catholics equate prayer with worship, and therefore feel that we are somehow giving to the saints that which is due God alone.

Yes, that is a concern. But I wouldn't say that anyone "equate(s) prayer with worship."

It is that sometimes the prayer is accompanied with acts that amount to worship. In fact, Catholics and Orthodox Christians often make the point that it IS worship...and then proceed to describe what is said to be one kind of worship versus another kind of worship.

Catholic Christian

27th January 2008, 01:44 PM

....I'd point out that you do not merely request that your brothers and sisters presumed to be in heaven pray for you. They are often, if not always, considered to be able to fulfill the requests on their own.

Untrue. Any Catholic that says this is not in line with Catholic teaching. Only God can do such things. I would analogize it with a faith healing: People pray and lay their hands on the afflicted person, but it is God - and ONLY God - who actually does the healing.

Yes, that is a concern. But I wouldn't say that anyone "equate(s) prayer with worship.".

Oh, that is not what others in here have told me.

It is that sometimes the prayer is accompanied with acts that amount to worship... .

In your opinion

...In fact, Catholics and Orthodox Christians often make the point that it IS worship...and then proceed to describe what is said to be one kind of worship versus another kind of worship.

Show me a Catholic who says it is worship, and I'll show you a Catholic who is a heretic according to their own Church

Rick Otto

27th January 2008, 01:54 PM

The idea that prayer is request is an unscripturaly limited definition. I've cited two scriptures that demonstrate this on one of these threads. All I had to do was look up "prayed" in a concordance to find them. I stopped at two, but no doubt there is more.
Ordinarily I find RC's abuse equating of one term with another, but there is quite a bit ov overlap between worship & prayer.

An act (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01115a.htm) of the virtue of religion (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12748a.htm) which consists in asking proper gifts or graces (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06689a.htm) from God (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm). In a more general sense it is the application of the mind (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10321a.htm) to Divine things, not merely to acquire a knowledge (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08673a.htm) of them but to make use of such knowledge (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08673a.htm) as a means of union with God (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm). This may be done by acts of praise and thanksgiving, but petition is the principal act of prayer.
from:The Catholic Encyclopedia. (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12345b.htm)
I would posit that petition is the principle act of prayer only in practice, not in definition.

Catholic Christian

27th January 2008, 01:58 PM

Rick Otto

27th January 2008, 02:01 PM

I agree with you that you agreed with me.^_^
Howdy Terry, hope your day is goin' as well as mine seems to be so far.:wave:

Albion

27th January 2008, 02:03 PM

Untrue. Any Catholic that says this is not in line with Catholic teaching.

Well, it's true. That is certain. If you want to say that what most Catholics do is not wha their church officially approves of, then I'll entertain a discussion of that, knowing that most Catholics are not aware of what their church really does teach. You see it all the time on forums like this one.

Only God can do such things.

That's what I'd say. But it doesn't prevent popular Catholic practice from standing for something else. There are millions of Catholics who, for example, believe that Mary is the "dispenser of all graces" and that no good thing comes to any of us unless Mary signs off on it. There are shrines and religious orders dedicated to that proposition.

I would analogize it with a faith healing: People pray and lay their hands on the afflicted person, but it is God - and ONLY God - who actually does the healing.

In that case, God is acknowledged as the one doing the healing. In the situation we are considering, the saint is considered by the recipient to be the one delivering the benefit. Consider the newspaper cult of St. Jude, for instance.

Oh, that is not what others in here have told me.

I can't control that, but it is commonly said.

In your opinion

No. You know as well as I do that bowing before statues of the saints who are prayed to, leaving flowers there, erecting shrines to them, and such things do go on and with the support of the church's leadership. That this MAY reasonably be CONSIDERED to constitute more than simple "asking" is obvious, whether or not you think it benign yourself.

Show me a Catholic who says it is worship, and I'll show you a Catholic who is a heretic according to their own Church

I'm sure you can find it discussed in various places on CF. Orthodox Eastern Christians often make exactly that point, and I know that Roman Catholics believe the same. There was some discussion about this on the Apostolic forum no long ago. The word "worship" does, you know, have several different levels of meaning, as we can see in the Bible itself.

Rick Otto

27th January 2008, 02:19 PM

Terry must be a little embarrased about admitting that worship (dulia) of Mary& the saints is approved & encouraged.
Terry, don't be confused & in denial. Add worship of Mary to your list of Catholic things to be proud of, & start lifting the consciousness of everyone around you about the difference between latrea & dulia worship.
When that happens we can address the legitimacy of the distinction.

Technocrat2010

27th January 2008, 02:24 PM

Then tell me. That way I won't be making any assumptions that you obviously don't want me to be making.

Make the assumptions and I will let you know if they are correct or not.

That's illogical, sorry. Either he used SS or he didn't. You can't have this both ways any more than one can be partly pregnant. I appreciate the concession that Sola Scriptura is older than Martin Luther, correct or not. Usually, Catholics insist that no one ever thought of basing his beliefs on the Word of God prior to the Reformation.

It's far older than Martin Luther or Arius. Remember Korah of the OT? Or the Thessalonians, for instance?

False dichotomy on your part. I never implied an ambiguity in Arius' approach. Arius did not explicitly promote SS, but his approach implicitly accepted it. So yes, he did use SS, although he didn't acknowledge it.

But here's the main point: to make an interpretation of
a passage or passages in scripture is NOT Sola Scriptura. There are a number of passages in scripture that the Roman Church has used to establish one or another doctrine, absent claims from Tradition, and you are not calling that a "SS approach," I'm sure. Sola Scriptura is an approach to the Bible in total.

Please demonstrate these passages you speak of.

[quote]Basically you're saying to take the Bible entirely out of historical context; am I correct? [quote]

No.

Then why not look at the Tradition behind the interpretations?

No.

Then if you reject Traditions...?

Except that it is NOT "just as." The situations are totally different, and since you are a fan of context, apply some of that here.

Exactly how are they different?

Catholic Christian

27th January 2008, 02:35 PM

Catholic Christian

27th January 2008, 02:44 PM

No. You know as well as I do that bowing before statues of the saints who are prayed to, leaving flowers there, erecting shrines to them, and such things do go on and with the support of the church's leadership. That this MAY reasonably be CONSIDERED to constitute more than simple "asking" is obvious, whether or not you think it benign yourself.

Okay, you whooped me on the multi-quoting. My brain is draining. But I will adress this one issue: To put it simply, NO, I do not know that.

I kneel before statues. But that is just a tool I use to focus when praying. I am fully aware that the statue is a piece of rock, nothing more. I am also fully aware that the person represented by the statue is not a God (unless its a statue of Jesus, but even then, it is still a rock). These things raise my senses. I am more likely to be in tune with spirituality if I am surrounded by incense, stained glass, and imagery of heavenly beings, then I am if I am surrounded by the dirty dishes in my kitchen. We are sensual beings (as in the five senses) and Catholic Churches, with their beauty and architechture help raise the mind to things higher than ourselves.

Rick Otto

27th January 2008, 03:09 PM

Okay, you whooped me on the multi-quoting. My brain is draining. But I will adrees this one issue: To put it simply, NO, I do not know that.

I kneel before statues. But that is just a tool I use to focus when praying. I am fully aware that the statue is a piece of rock, nothing more. I am also fully aware that the person represented by the statue is not a God (unless its a statue of Jesus, but even then, it is still a rock). These things raise my senses. I am more likely to be in tune with spirituality if I am surrounded by incense, stained glass, and imagery of heavenly beings, then I am if I am surrounded by the dirty dishes in my kitchen. We are sensual beings (as in the five senses) and Catholic Churches, with their beauty and architechture help raise the mind to things higher than ourselves.
Good for you.
And those things used to do the same for me.
Now they just raise my mind to heights of abominations they conceal & protect. Not that that's the only content there, but a few good apples do not redeem a rotten basket.

Catholic Christian

27th January 2008, 03:44 PM

Good for you.
And those things used to do the same for me.
Now they just raise my mind to heights of abominations they conceal & protect. Not that that's the only content there, but a few good apples do not redeem a rotten basket.
can I assume you feel the same way about the eastern orthodox, traditional anglicans, and coptics, who adorn their churches similarly?

Catholic Christian

27th January 2008, 03:48 PM

Good for you.
And those things used to do the same for me.
Now they just raise my mind to heights of abominations they conceal & protect. Not that that's the only content there, but a few good apples do not redeem a rotten basket.
BTW: It is extremely difficult for me to remain charitable when you keep tossing around words like "abominations" and "rotten basket". I could say many things about your beliefs, but I am trying to focus on the positive.

Albion

27th January 2008, 04:13 PM

Okay, you whooped me on the multi-quoting. My brain is draining. But I will adress this one issue: To put it simply, NO, I do not know that.

Do you mean you don't know that these things happen, or that the chergy are fine with it? Either one seems impossible for any Catholic not to know. Maybe, therefore, I misunderstand what you are referring to.

I kneel before statues. But that is just a tool I use to focus when praying. I am fully aware that the statue is a piece of rock, nothing more. I am also fully aware that the person represented by the statue is not a God (unless its a statue of Jesus, but even then, it is still a rock). These things raise my senses. I am more likely to be in tune with spirituality if I am surrounded by incense, stained glass, and imagery of heavenly beings, then I am if I am surrounded by the dirty dishes in my kitchen.

I can appreciate all of that. It's when the actions are pushed a little beyond this that the real concern sets in. On the other hand, I got into this part of the discussion by way of agreeing that many "non-Catholics" have this kind of concern. While I sympathize with them to some degree, it's not total.

Albion

27th January 2008, 04:26 PM

Make the assumptions and I will let you know if they are correct or not.

Well, I already did that--in post 88, I think--and got the idea that you thought I shouldn't have.

It's far older than Martin Luther or Arius. Remember Korah of the OT? Or the Thessalonians, for instance?

I don't think you are speaking of Sola Scriptura here.

False dichotomy on your part. I never implied an ambiguity in Arius' approach. Arius did not explicitly promote SS, but his approach implicitly accepted it. So yes, he did use SS, although he didn't acknowledge it.

I still feel that you are incorrect about this. Merely to take some part of scripture literally IS NOT to accept the concept of Sola Scriptura. If you can show that Arius was indeed a believer in Sola Scriptura, I'd of course be interested in that, but this "implicitly" or speaking of a SS kind of "approach" is not that. You're trying to find something that isn't there.

As I said, SS is a way of viewing the whole of Scripture and in relation to any other means of ascertaining God's truth. What you have outlined here, Arius or no Arius, does not rise to that level.

Basically you're saying to take the Bible entirely out of historical context; am I correct?

No.

Then why not look at the Tradition behind the interpretations?

Tradition is more than an interpretation. It is an addition to scripture.

Exactly how are they different?

You wanted our understanding of the matter of prayer to be taken in context. This is the context.

Nowhere in scripture do are we advised to pray to the deceased. When you stretch the Biblical advice about you praying for your neighbor as far as to justify praying to deceased people, and then only with the presumption that they are 1) able to hear us, and 2) in heaven, you are taking the Scriptures out of context.

Rick Otto

27th January 2008, 04:29 PM

can I assume you feel the same way about the eastern orthodox, traditional anglicans, and coptics, who adorn their churches similarly?
YES! And many, many Protestant denoms as well.
"Churchianity" is what i call it.

BTW: It is extremely difficult for me to remain charitable when you keep tossing around words like "abominations" and "rotten basket". I could say many things about your beliefs, but I am trying to focus on the positive.

I appreciate that in spite of many of your posts seeming to focus on the negative. So nevertheless, I'll redouble my efforts to please you in this, but it might help you to remember that in my particular case, I am equaly critical of Protestant abominations, but you would only notice that if this was a Protestant only forum.
I admit that tho I am equaly critical, I am more forgiving of Protestants if only because they do not make the same 'suprem