Question for Catholics

[aintzaJainkoari]

To those of you who believe pray to saints or Mary, can you give me reasons, or Scriptural support of this? :confused:

I don't understand this practice. It seems to contradicts Christianity. :scratch:

Can anyone explain this to me?

[WarriorAngel]

Take 98 :)


This had already been explained by St. Thomas: Prayer (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12345b.htm) is offered to a person (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11726a.htm) in two ways: one as though to be granted by himself, another as to be obtained through him. In the first way we pray (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12345b.htm) to God (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm) alone, because all our prayers (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12345b.htm) ought to be directed to obtaining grace and glory (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06585a.htm) which God (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm) alone gives, according to those words of the Psalm (lxxxiii, 12): 'The Lord will give grace and glory (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06585a.htm).' But in the second way we pray (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12345b.htm) to the holy angels (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01476d.htm) and to men not that God (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm) may learn our petition through them, but that by their prayers (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12345b.htm) and merits (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10202b.htm) our prayers (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12345b.htm) may be efficacious. Wherefore it is said in the Apocalypse (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01594b.htm) (viii, 4): 'And the smoke of the incense (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07716a.htm) of the prayers (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12345b.htm) of the saints (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04171a.htm) ascended up before God (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm) from the hand of the angel (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01476d.htm)' (Summ. Theol., II-II, Q. lxxxiii, a. 4).
The reasonableness of the Catholic teaching (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05075b.htm) and practice cannot be better stated than in St. Jerome's (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08341a.htm) words: If the Apostles (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01626c.htm) and Martyrs (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09736b.htm), while still in the body, can pray (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12345b.htm) for others, at a time (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14726a.htm) when they must still be anxious for themselves, how much more after their crowns, victories, and triumphs are won! One man (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09580c.htm), Moses (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10596a.htm), obtains from God (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm) pardon for six hundred thousand men in arms; and Stephen, the imitator of the Lord, and the first martyr (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09736b.htm) in Christ, begs forgiveness for his persecutors (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11703a.htm); and shall their power be less after having begun to be with Christ? The Apostle Paul (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11567b.htm) declares that two hundred three score and sixteen souls (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14153a.htm), sailing with him, were freely given him; and, after he is dissolved and has begun to be with Christ, shall he close his lips, and not be able to utter a word in behalf of those who throughout the whole world believed (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02408b.htm) at his preaching of the Gospel? And shall the living dog Vigilantius be better than that dead lion? ("Contra Vigilant.", n. 6, in P. L., XXIII, 344).

[StTherese]

Have you ever asked anyone to pray for you?

[StTherese]

To those of you who believe pray to saints or Mary, can you give me reasons, or Scriptural support of this? :confused:

I don't understand this practice. It seems to contradicts Christianity. :scratch:

Can anyone explain this to me?
For scriptural support please read here:


http://www.scripturecatholic.com/saints.html

[Tyndale]

To those of you who believe pray to saints or Mary, can you give me reasons, or Scriptural support of this? :confused:

I don't understand this practice. It seems to contradicts Christianity. :scratch:

Can anyone explain this to me?

Take 98 :)



This had already been explained by St. Thomas:

Christ's the only mediator between God and man. If you pray to anyone else, it's not reaching Heaven.

[aintzaJainkoari]

I still don't see that it tells us to pray to them.

In most of those verses it was talking about people who were still alive praying to God for each other, or just respecting and honoring the saints/elders/etc., but not to pray to them.
And concerning the angels, most of those say that the angels guard us, but it doesn't say to worship them or pray to them.

[PaladinValer]

To those of you who believe pray to saints or Mary, can you give me reasons, or Scriptural support of this?

First, potentially wrong forum.

Secondly, this isn't just a Vatican Catholic thing. The three largest Christian churches in the world teach this, and only one of them is that particular church. The second largest, the Eastern Orthodox, and the third largest, my own Anglican Church, also practice this. In addition, the Oriental Orthodox, Continuing Churchers, and the Old Catholics all historically practice veneration of the Saints, and it is personally practiced by some Lutherans, Moravians, and high-churchy Methodists as well.

Third, it isn't specifically explicitly stated in Scripture. Then again, nor is the Trinity. However, the basis of it comes from two Greek words that are both unfortunately translated as prayer in English: latria and doulia. One of them, latria, means what we mean by prayer. Doulia means what we would call petition today.

When an Apostolic Christian (Anglican, Old Catholic, Oriental Orthodox, etc) says that he or she prays to the Saints, that person means doulia. If that person actually meant latria, that person has automatically excommunicated himself/herself and as fallen into sin and apostacy.

I don't understand this practice. It seems to contradicts Christianity.

It didn't significantly until a few decades before the Seventh Ecumenical Council, which occurred in the late 8th century. The ancient practice was to venerate the Saints and to petition them to pray for us and we for them. The concept of this being a sin is roughly 700 years after Pentecost.

Can anyone explain this to me?

Done! :)

Christ's the only mediator between God and man. If you pray to anyone else, it's not reaching Heaven.

Since you've never been to the other side and we have witnesses who've experienced otherwise, I'll trust them.

[Tyndale]

Christ's the only mediator between God and man. If you pray to anyone else, it's not reaching Heaven.


Since you've never been to the other side and we have witnesses who've experienced otherwise, I'll trust them.

Who are these witnesses who have went against Christ's word? Christ mentioned to pray unto him and his Father, no-one else!

[Assisi]

:wave:

As Catholics we see ourselves as one big family including those of us in heaven with God and us Christians on earth. We believe that while God looks into the heart of each individual, he also sees us as one 'unit', one family, one Church - His Bride. We see this in revelation because although there is a multitude before the throne praising the Lord, we are also told of John's vision of the Church adorned in white. Also, in Corinthians we are told of the body with many parts. This is a good analogy because we are indeed all different parts of the Body of Christ, yet when we see a body we see one thing, living and moving together.

There is a mystical bond between us, and that bond is formed by the Spirit. Catholics do not believe that physical death can break this mystical bond. How is it that the Lord can hear my prayer for you? How is it that I can pray for someone who I haven't met, someone, perhaps, who hasn't verbally asked for my prayers? The bond between us all reminds me to pray for all of God's chosen people.

Those who are in heaven have been cleaned and perfected by Christ (for we know that nothing unclean can enter the kingdom of heaven). They are righteous men and women, who will always pray in accordance with the will of God. When we go to heaven we will not stop praising the Lord, we will not stop worshiping Him, we will not stop petitioning Him for the needs of His Church on earth who are still struggling with daily encounters and temptations from the devil to turn away from the Lord. Those in heaven will of course pray for those in need, and their prayer will be effective because 'the prayer of the righteous man availth much'.

Knowing that they will pray for us, and that their prayer will be effective, and knowing that through the Holy Spirit there is an unbreakable bond between us as member of Christ's Church, we can ask the saints in heaven to pray for us and to pray with us. We do not worship them (that would be idolatry) and we do not praise them. We ask them to petition the Lord on our behalf and we pray together as a family.

[Melethiel]

Moved to Denomination-specific Theology. Please observe the particular guidelines of this subforum.

[Tyndale]

:wave:

We do not worship them (that would be idolatry) and we do not praise them. We ask them to petition the Lord on our behalf and we pray together as a family.




What do you mean? Do the saints offer your prayers to Christ? Why do you go through a Saint, when Christ said you can pray to him?

Does this petition the Saints make to Christ act in the same way regarding sins?

[Assisi]

A great place to ask these types of questions is OBOB (http://www.christianforums.com/f26-one-bread-one-body-catholic.html).

Personally I like the idea of the communion of saints and I like knowing that the holy men and women in heaven can pray for me and with me. If I am tempted to deny Christ, I can turn to the Lord in prayer and I can ask St Peter to turn with me. If I have a thorn in my flesh I can turn to the Lord in prayer and I can ask St Paul to turn with me. When I lost my child, I turned to the Lord, and I asked the mother of Christ to pray with me.

I also like to know that although my family is separated by death, when I worship the Lord at His altar at my local church, my child is worshiping the Lord at His heavenly altar.
Just to reiterate. We do not worship saints or angels, we pray with them, we ask them to pray for us.

[Assisi]

What do you mean? Do the saints offer your prayers to Christ? Why do you go through a Saint, when Christ said you can pray to him?
We of course pray to Christ. The saints also offer my prayers to Christ, they do not offer my prayers for me, instead of me.
I 'go through a saint' because I like to pray with other people:). The more the merrier.;)

The saints do not take my place in offering the prayer, nor do they take Christ's place in receiving the prayer.

Does this petition the Saints make to Christ act in the same way regarding sins?
I'm not sure what you mean here?

[Tyndale]

We of course pray to Christ. The saints also offer my prayers to Christ, they do not offer my prayers for me, instead of me.
I 'go through a saint' because I like to pray with other people:). The more the merrier.;)

The saints do not take my place in offering the prayer, nor do they take Christ's place in receiving the prayer.


I'm not sure what you mean here?

Is this in the bible?

[Assisi]

Christ's the only mediator between God and man. If you pray to anyone else, it's not reaching Heaven.
I agree with your statement that Christ is the only mediator between God and man. This Scripture is a reference to Christ's redemptive work on the Cross.:thumbsup: But Tyndale, Saints are men (or women;)). Christ is the mediator between them and God as well.

[Assisi]

Is this in the bible?
Yep:)
This was posted by a fellow Catholic on the previous page.
http://www.scripturecatholic.com/saints.html

[Tyndale]

Is this in the bible?

Yep:)
This was posted by a fellow Catholic on the previous page.
http://www.scripturecatholic.com/saints.html


IWhen I see references to books, chapter and verse, along with an interpretation of what they mean, I'm quite suspicious.

The following interpretation is a bit out there, don't you think?

"1 Cor. 12:12,27; Rom. 12:5; Col. 3:15; Eph. 4:4 - we are the members of the one body of Christ, supernaturally linked together by our partaking of the Eucharist."

and the one below is very wishy-washy in theory too, don't you think?

"Matt. 17:3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30 - Jesus converses with "deceased" Moses and Elijah. They are more alive than the saints on earth." Surely Jesus and the disciples are specially chosen to talk with Moses and Elijah? If not, then we all could be judging one another come jugment day?:scratch:

[WarriorAngel]

BTW.the earliest graves in the catacombs have writings over their tombs asking Saints to pray for them. [specifically Mary to pray]

And it is not something that came about in the 8th Century. It was then that it was decreed good to do. As opposed to those who decided that it wasnt.

[WarriorAngel]

FOR the most part...when the NT was being written.....

How could they tell us to ask Mary for prayers from Heaven, or others....when they were still alive?

[aintzaJainkoari]

I believe that the saints and the angels already pray for us, but that communication with the dead is considered divination.

[aintzaJainkoari]

And it doesn't matter if they wrote that or not on the tombs, they are still wrong.

[aintzaJainkoari]

My grandmother is Catholic and prays to the saints. I've heard her "favorite saint" is St. Jude. :sick:

Do you want to know something else? She has terrible health problems: stomach problems, headaches, coughing, she is hardly ever feeling well, she recently had a knot in one of her ovaries and had to have it removed. :(

My grandmother took me and my brothers and sister to pray for my parents, since they were having marital problems. She took us to a small Catholic "church" about a year ago. It was just a one-room small building in which you bought a candle, lit it, said a prayer in front of a small statue of Jesus and many pictures of the saints, then set the candle there.

If I had known back then that that was idolatry, which it was, one, because Jesus said make no image of Himself so to not subtract from His glory, and two, because the placing the candle there is equal to sacrificing to a false god on an altar, then I would not have participated in it. By the way, that small little building was hit by a truck, which went through the fence and smashed a giant hole in the wall of it.

And do you know that since then, very recently, my parents have gotten a divorce. :cry: And also I've had religious OCD-like spiritual attacks and pervasive bad thoughts about God. I also had a problem getting free of a certain addictive habitual sin, which I shall not mention because it is utterly disgusting, which compacted the previous problem.

So if you think praying to angels and the saints or Mary is okay, think again. You are cursing yourself your family and opening yourselves up to demonic attack.

[aintzaJainkoari]

So lets see. Praying to the saints, Mary, angels, or anyone/anything other than God Himself is these:

Idolatry- even though you are not worshipping them, it's still idolatry and idol worship if you pray to them while looking using a picture or cross, and sacrificing to idols if you put e.g. a candle or something else there by it, and can open up sexual sin problems, which are another form of idolatry

Divination/Witchcraft- communication with the dead or supernatural other than God, or praying or using any supernatural or physical power besides God alone to get what you need or want, whether or not it is malicious or intentional

Is done "according to the traditions of this world rather than on Christ."

[Assisi]

IWhen I see references to books, chapter and verse, along with an interpretation of what they mean, I'm quite suspicious.
I understand what you mean, I have read some pretty weird and heretical interpretations in my time. But with some topics we need to have this interpretation next to the line so we know which part of the verse the apologist is attributing as supporting their argument. The same would have to be done when pointing out passages which support the doctrine of the Trinity because there is no one line which says - 'this is it'.

The following interpretation is a bit out there, don't you think?

"1 Cor. 12:12,27; Rom. 12:5; Col. 3:15; Eph. 4:4 - we are the members of the one body of Christ, supernaturally linked together by our partaking of the Eucharist."
No, actually I don't. Rom 12:5 we are 'individually members one of another.' This seems to suggest a supernatural link to me...what does it suggest to you?
I used 1 Cor 12:12-27 in my first post to support my beliefs of a supernatural link.
Eph 4 and Col 3:15...again it's talking about our 'oneness'.

Are you contending that the link which makes us one is not supernatural? I think it IS supernatural, because it is of the Spirit.

and the one below is very wishy-washy in theory too, don't you think?

"Matt. 17:3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30 - Jesus converses with "deceased" Moses and Elijah. They are more alive than the saints on earth." Surely Jesus and the disciples are specially chosen to talk with Moses and Elijah? If not, then we all could be judging one another come jugment day?:scratch:
Wishy washy? To demonstrate that those who have gone before us to Christ are alive and not dead? I don't think so. Wishy washy to show that their existence is not entirely shielded from us?
Was Christ sinning by 'talking to the dead'??
I don't really understand how you have connected this to judgement day... God will be our Judge.

Also, these are some in a large list of Scriptures. Not the only Scriptural support we have for our view.

Tyndale, I am enjoying debating this with you. I pray that this discussion will draw us both closer to Christ who is the Truth.:hug:

[Assisi]

Another thing: my grandmother is Catholic and prays to the saints. I've heard her "favorite saint" is St. Jude. :sick:

Do you want to know something else? She has terrible health problems: stomach problems, headaches, coughing, she is hardly ever feeling well, she recently had a knot in one of her ovaries and had to have it removed. :(

My grandmother took me and my brothers and sister to pray for my parents, since they were having marital problems. She took us to a small Catholic "church" about a year ago. It was just a one-room small building in which you bought a candle, lit it, said a prayer in front of a small statue of Jesus and many pictures of the saints, then set the candle there.

If I had known back then that that was idolatry, which it was, one, because Jesus said make no image of Himself so to not subtract from His glory, and two, because the placing the candle there is equal to sacrificing to a false god on an altar, then I would not have participated in it. By the way, that small little building was hit by a truck, which went through the fence and smashed a giant hole in the wall of it.

And do you know that since then, very recently, my parents have gotten a divorce. :mad:

So if you think praying to angels and the saints or Mary is okay, think again. You are cursing yourself and opening yourself up to demonic attack.
I'm sorry to hear about your parents divorce.:hug: I pray that you and your family can experience Christ's healing.

[PaladinValer]

With permission from both the OP and those Catholics currently responding, may I enter into this since the veneration of the Saints is a part of my church as well?

[aintzaJainkoari]

sure

[Assisi]

With permission from both the OP and those Catholics currently responding, may I enter into this since the veneration of the Saints is a part of my church as well?
:hug:It's okay with little old me...

Like you said, the majority of Christians practice this, it's not just a Catholic thing. I hope you can join in.

[aintzaJainkoari]

Like you said, the majority of Christians practice this, it's not just a Catholic thing.

Okay, stop using arguments like these, they are built on the Appeal to Popularity and Appeal to Authority fallacies.

It doesn't matter how many people practice these things, or if some respected person in the church said they're okay. If God does not teach it or agree with it in His Word, it's wrong.

[Assisi]

Okay, stop using arguments like these, they are built on the Appeal to Popularity and Appeal to Authority fallacies.

It doesn't matter how many people practice these things, or if some respected person in the church said they're okay. If God does not teach it or agree with it in His Word, it's wrong.

I used this as an argument as to why people other than Catholics should be allowed to enjoy this debate, not as an argument to support my claim. I think you'll find that my arguments in this thread have been based entirely on Scripture and basic logic.

[PaladinValer]

First off, my thanks to both aintzaJainkoari and to Assisi for permission. Since I am Anglican and despite my church is in agreement with Assisi's, I did not want to breach protocol.

It's okay with little old me...

Like you said, the majority of Christians practice this, it's not just a Catholic thing. I hope you can join in.




Okay, stop using arguments like these, they are built on the Appeal to Popularity and Appeal to Authority fallacies.

Um, she was referring to my joining since I am Anglican.

Fallacy of Straw Man.

I believe that the saints and the angels already pray for us, but that communication with the dead is considered divination.

They are not dead; they are alive. Soul death/sleep is not orthodox.

And it doesn't matter if they wrote that or not on the tombs, they are still wrong.

You missed the point. It shows that the practice is ancient. And the fact that no one condemned it suggests that it wasn't heretical like there were condemnations of very early heresies like Gnosticism, Sabellianism, and Judaizerism.

My grandmother is Catholic and prays to the saints. I've heard her "favorite saint" is St. Jude.

How wonderful! Mine is St. Joseph the Betrothed myself. Perfect match for me on many levels.

Do you want to know something else? She has terrible health problems: stomach problems, headaches, coughing, she is hardly ever feeling well, she recently had a knot in one of her ovaries and had to have it removed.

I'm sorry to hear that, but what does this have to do with your argument?

My grandmother took me and my brothers and sister to pray for my parents, since they were having marital problems. She took us to a small Catholic "church" about a year ago. It was just a one-room small building in which you bought a candle, lit it, said a prayer in front of a small statue of Jesus and many pictures of the saints, then set the candle there.

Sure it was a parish? Sounds more like a shrine; there is a difference, you know.

If I had known back then that that was idolatry, which it was,

Again, you've mixed up latria and doulia (and there's hyperdoulia when it comes to the Blessed Ever-Virgin St. Mary the Christokos and Theotokos, Mother of God, Queen of Heaven, and Ark of Salvation). Those two words are right in Scripture, so you cannot say "well that's just 'Tradition;' you need to now prove to us that the two mean the same thing.

one, because Jesus said make no image of Himself so to not subtract from His glory,

Where?

And you realize that all humans are ikons (Septuagint of Genesis 1) of God?

and two, because the placing the candle there is equal to sacrificing to a false god on an altar,

Either prove latria is equal to doulia or recant.

then I would not have participated in it. By the way, that small little building was hit by a truck, which went through the fence and smashed a giant hole in the wall of it.

Fallacy of Slippery Slope. If you want to quote fallacies, you better not fall into them either!

And do you know that since then, very recently, my parents have gotten a divorce.

Argumentum ad misercordiam!

And also I've had religious OCD-like spiritual attacks and pervasive bad thoughts about God. I also had a problem getting free of a certain addictive habitual sin, which I shall not mention because it is utterly disgusting, which compacted the previous problem.

See my immediate above reply: Argumentum ad misercordiam.

So if you think praying to angels and the saints or Mary is okay, think again. You are cursing yourself your family and opening yourselves up to demonic attack.

Like your false accusations?

Like I said: prove latria is the same as doulia or recant.

So lets see. Praying to the saints, Mary, angels, or anyone/anything other than God Himself is these:

Idolatry- even though you are not worshipping them, it's still idolatry and idol worship if you pray to them while looking using a picture or cross, and sacrificing to idols if you put e.g. a candle or something else there by it, and can open up sexual sin problems, which are another form of idolatry

Divination/Witchcraft- communication with the dead or supernatural other than God, or praying or using any supernatural or physical power besides God alone to get what you need or want, whether or not it is malicious or intentional

Is done "according to the traditions of this world rather than on Christ."

Latria? Yes. Doulia? No. Even hyperdoulia is a resounding no.

[Tyndale]

The following interpretation is a bit out there, don't you think?
"1 Cor. 12:12,27; Rom. 12:5; Col. 3:15; Eph. 4:4 - we are the members of the one body of Christ, supernaturally linked together by our partaking of the Eucharist."

No, actually I don't. Rom 12:5 we are 'individually members one of another.' This seems to suggest a supernatural link to me...what does it suggest to you?
I used 1 Cor 12:12-27 in my first post to support my beliefs of a supernatural link.
Eph 4 and Col 3:15...again it's talking about our 'oneness'.

Are you contending that the link which makes us one is not supernatural? I think it IS supernatural, because it is of the Spirit.

It's the supernatural claim to us being one because of the Eucharist, I was addressing Assisi, as you well know;). I have no qualms about Christians becoming one in Christ through repentance. Born again Christians become Christ's Saints. So, do we start praying for our mams and dads to intervene too?

and the one below is very wishy-washy in theory too, don't you think?

"Matt. 17:3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30 - Jesus converses with "deceased" Moses and Elijah. They are more alive than the saints on earth."





Wishy washy? To demonstrate that those who have gone before us to Christ are alive and not dead? I don't think so. Wishy washy to show that their existence is not entirely shielded from us?
Was Christ sinning by 'talking to the dead'??
I don't really understand how you have connected this to judgement day... God will be our Judge.

No it's wishy -washy, because it's used to back up praying to Romes canonized Saints, when in fact Christ was only talking to Moses and Elijah. These verses do not tell anyone to pray to Moses, Elijah, or any other known prophet or Saint. That's what is wishy-washy theology!

[Assisi]

It's the supernatural claim to us being one because of the Eucharist, I was addressing Assisi, as you well know;). I have no qualms about Christians becoming one in Christ through repentance. Born again Christians become Christ's Saints. So, do we start praying for our mams and dads to intervene too?
Oh, the Eucharist is the part you dispute. I'm not being coy in this debate, I like good old hearty, honest, charitable debate. Sure, I agree that the passages do not mention the Eucharist. :thumbsup: While the Eucharist is part of this supernatural bond (in my belief), I saw that part of their interpretation as secondary to the fact that the supernatural bond within members of the Church exists at all. Which seems a more important argument in this debate than whether or not the Eucharist is a part of that bond. The fact that this bond exists is central to this debate.
As for saints (who haven't been canonised) praying for us, of course they can - and we can ask them too. We don't believe we can assume that those we love are in heaven, but I have to admit that I ask my child to pray for me - especially in my grief.

No it's wishy -washy, because it's used to back up praying to Romes canonized Saints, when in fact Christ was only talking to Moses and Elijah. These verses do not tell anyone to pray to Moses, Elijah, or any other known prophet or Saint. That's what is wishy-washy theology!

Remember, Tyndale, that the transfiguration is used as an example to demonstrate one point in the argument. We are using Scripture and logic here (just like we have to with the doctrine of the Trinity). No one verse tells us that God is a triune God, likewise no one verse tells us to ask the intercession of the saints. This verse does demonstrate that those in heaven with God are truly alive, not dead, and that 'talking' to them (through Christ) is not the same as divination. That is all that is claimed by this verse.

We are not commanded to ask the saints to intercede for us, and we are not required to do so. But those of us who do, are not sinning by doing so.:thumbsup:

[Tyndale]

No one verse tells us that God is a triune God, likewise no one verse tells us to ask the intercession of the saints.


Precisely Assisi, however there are verses which tell us how to pray and who to pray to and it doesn't support chants or mention prayers to Saints. Searching for verses to back up praying to Saints undermines the verses which tell us how to pray to our Father which art in Heaven. Searching for verses which support the Saints to intercede on our behalf, undermines those verses which tell us that Christ is the only way unto the Father.

Man has always tried to find his own way to heaven. He's stubborn and doesn't listen to the instructions give by our dear Lord.

[IgnatiusOfAntioch]

Jesus said make no image of Himself.


Someone has been lying you son. Jesus never said any such thing. There are many people who hate the Catholic Church and will tell any kind of lie to damage it and pull people away from it. Please, if someone says things against the Catholic Church, check it out for yourself. If it turns out that they aren't telling the Truth, get away from them as fast as you can.

Also, if you want to truely follow Jesus, ask him to help you discern the Truth. Heavenly Father, I believe that you sent your only Son, Jesus Christ to save us and that he founded His Church to hwlp us. Lord, open my eyes and lead me to the pillar and foundation of Truth.

May the peace Jesus Christ, the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you always.

Your brother in Christ.

[LivingWordUnity]

In short, most Christians ask people to pray for them. Catholics ask people in Heaven to pray for us because they are at the throne of God offering our prayers up with incense to God.

The scripture support for this is in Revelation 5:1-8 and Revelation 8:3-4.

The saints are our prayer partners in Heaven.

It says in the Bible that wherever 2 or more are gathered God is there in their presence.

Well, if you were stranded alone on an island how would you be able to gather 2 or more to pray? The only way would be if you asked for the intercession of the saints in Heaven to be your prayer partners. ;)

[Assisi]

Precisely Assisi, however there are verses which tell us how to pray and who to pray to and it doesn't support chants or mention prayers to Saints. Searching for verses to back up praying to Saints undermines the verses which tell us how to pray to our Father which art in Heaven. Searching for verses which support the Saints to intercede on our behalf, undermines those verses which tell us that Christ is the only way unto the Father.

Man has always tried to find his own way to heaven. He's stubborn and doesn't listen to the instructions give by our dear Lord.
Your argument would hold weight if we prayed to saints instead of to God. But we don't. The Lord has indeed taught us how to pray, Catholics pray the 'Pater' or the Lord's prayer at every Mass and most pray it every time they set aside time for personal prayer.:thumbsup: 'let us pray with confidence to the Father, in the words our Saviour gave us...'

Asking saints to pray with us is no different to asking other Christians to pray with us. It is not about trying to get to heaven our own way. Jesus is the Way.

[Catholic Christian]

To those of you who believe pray to saints or Mary, can you give me reasons, or Scriptural support of this? :confused:

I don't understand this practice. It seems to contradicts Christianity. :scratch:

Can anyone explain this to me?

peace to you
from Catholic Crusader

I will try. First, let me illustrate a point:

1. When did Jesus tell the Apostles to write the New Testament? He didn't, according to the Bible.
2. When did Jesus specifically use the word, "Trinity"? He didn't, according to the Bible.

So when people ask "when did Jesus tell us to pray to Mary", and other similar questions, my reply is "He didn't, and it doesn't matter." The point is that there are Biblical "principals" on which Christian teachings are based. Not everything is “specifically” stated in black and white in the Scriptures. As I said, the word "Trinity" is not in the Bible but most Christians believe in the Trinity.

So, what about prayer to Mary and the saints in heaven? Those in heaven pray with us and for us, as in the book of Revelation when John sees that "the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5:8). A prayer is a request. When we pray to Mary and the saints in heaven, we are asking them to pray for us, the same way non-Catholic Christians ask their friends or family to pray for them.
Question: When you ask your friends or family to pray for you, does that take away from Jesus or his role as mediator? Of course not, and neither does praying to our brother and sisters in heaven. Because he is the only God-man and the Mediator of the New Covenant, Jesus is the only mediator between man and God (1 Tim. 2:5), but this in no way means we cannot or should not ask our fellow Christians to pray with us and for us (1 Tim. 2:1–4). In particular, we should ask the intercession of those Christians in heaven, who have already had their sanctification completed, for "[t]he prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects" (Jas. 5:16). The family of God transcends death: You are still a Christian even when you are in heaven, and you can still pray for your brothers and sisters when you are there. Catholics believe Jesus when he says, "He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive" (Luke 20:38).

Hebrews 12: 22-24 says that as we approach God, Jesus and the angels, we also approach "the spirits of righteous men made perfect". In other words, THE SAINTS. "But they can't hear us" you may say. Wrong. As Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. For example, in Revelation 5:8, John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.

I invite you to read this a better explanation:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.as (http://www.catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.as)

God bless

[Brennin]

Again, you've mixed up latria and doulia (and there's hyperdoulia when it comes to the Blessed Ever-Virgin St. Mary the Christokos and Theotokos, Mother of God, Queen of Heaven, and Ark of Salvation).

That is a fine exercise in kakodoxy. There is no "queen of heaven" or "mother of god" as Jeremiah and Isaiah make clear.

[PaladinValer]

That is a fine exercise in kakodoxy. There is no "queen of heaven" or "mother of god" as Jeremiah and Isaiah make clear.

Jesus is God.

St. Mary the Theotokos is Jesus' Mommy.

Therefore, St. Mary the Theotokos is the Mother of God.

Furthermore, the queen is the mother of the king.

Jesus is the King.

Therefore, Mary is the Queen.

Fin.

[Brennin]

Jesus is God.

St. Mary the Theotokos is Jesus' Mommy.

Therefore, St. Mary the Theotokos is the Mother of God.

Furthermore, the queen is the mother of the king.

Jesus is the King.

Therefore, Mary is the Queen.

Fin.
Your "syllogisms" are as flimsy as a tent in a tornado. Jesus is God only in a qualitative sense (see John 1:1c) and Isaiah and Mark make it clear that God does not have a mother.

Isaiah 43

10You are my witnesses, says the Lord,
and my servant whom I have chosen,
so that you may know and believe me
and understand that I am he.
Before me no god was formed,
nor shall there be any after me.

Isaiah 44

6Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel
and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
I am the first and I am the last;
besides me there is no god.
7Who is like me? Let them proclaim it,
let them declare and set it forth before me.
Who has announced from of old the things to come?*
Let them tell us what is yet to be.
8Do not fear, or be afraid;
have I not told you from of old and declared it?
You are my witnesses!
Is there any god besides me?
There is no other rock; I know not one.

Isaiah 45

20Assemble yourselves and come together,
draw near, you survivors of the nations!
They have no knowledge—
those who carry about their wooden idols,
and keep on praying to a god
that cannot save.
21Declare and present your case;
let them take counsel together!
Who told this long ago?
Who declared it of old?
Was it not I, the Lord?
There is no other god besides me,
a righteous God and a Saviour;
there is no one besides me.


22Turn to me and be saved,
all the ends of the earth!
For I am God, and there is no other.

Isaiah 46

8Remember this and consider,*
recall it to mind, you transgressors,
9 remember the former things of old;
for I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is no one like me,
10declaring the end from the beginning
and from ancient times things not yet done,
saying, ‘My purpose shall stand,
and I will fulfil my intention’

Mark 12

28 One of the scribes came near and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, he asked him, ‘Which commandment is the first of all?’ 29Jesus answered, ‘The first is, “Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God, the Lord is one; 30you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.” 31The second is this, “You shall love your neighbour as yourself.” There is no other commandment greater than these.’ 32Then the scribe said to him, ‘You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that “he is one, and besides him there is no other”; 33and “to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the strength”, and “to love one’s neighbour as oneself”,—this is much more important than all whole burnt-offerings and sacrifices.’ 34When Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said to him, ‘You are not far from the kingdom of God.’ After that no one dared to ask him any question.

As for the title "queen of heaven," it is expressly condemned by Jeremiah, your kakodoxy notwithstanding.

Jeremiah 7

18The children gather wood, the fathers kindle fire, and the women knead dough, to make cakes for the queen of heaven; and they pour out drink-offerings to other gods, to provoke me to anger.

Jeremiah 44

15 Then all the men who were aware that their wives had been making offerings to other gods, and all the women who stood by, a great assembly, all the people who lived in Pathros in the land of Egypt, answered Jeremiah: 16‘As for the word that you have spoken to us in the name of the Lord, we are not going to listen to you. 17Instead, we will do everything that we have vowed, make offerings to the queen of heaven and pour out libations to her, just as we and our ancestors, our kings and our officials, used to do in the towns of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem. We used to have plenty of food, and prospered, and saw no misfortune. 18But from the time we stopped making offerings to the queen of heaven and pouring out libations to her, we have lacked everything and have perished by the sword and by famine.’ 19And the women said, ‘Indeed we will go on making offerings to the queen of heaven and pouring out libations to her; do you think that we made cakes for her, marked with her image, and poured out libations to her without our husbands being involved?’

20 Then Jeremiah said to all the people, men and women, all the people who were giving him this answer: 21‘As for the offerings that you made in the towns of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem, you and your ancestors, your kings and your officials, and the people of the land, did not the Lord remember them? Did it not come into his mind? 22The Lord could no longer bear the sight of your evil doings, the abominations that you committed; therefore your land became a desolation and a waste and a curse, without inhabitant, as it is to this day. 23It is because you burned offerings, and because you sinned against the Lord and did not obey the voice of the Lord or walk in his law and in his statutes and in his decrees, that this disaster has befallen you, as is still evident today.’

24 Jeremiah said to all the people and all the women, ‘Hear the word of the Lord, all you Judeans who are in the land of Egypt, 25Thus says the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel: You and your wives have accomplished in deeds what you declared in words, saying, “We are determined to perform the vows that we have made, to make offerings to the queen of heaven and to pour out libations to her.” By all means, keep your vows and make your libations! 26Therefore hear the word of the Lord, all you Judeans who live in the land of Egypt: Lo, I swear by my great name, says the Lord, that my name shall no longer be pronounced on the lips of any of the people of Judah in all the land of Egypt, saying, “As the Lord God lives.”

[StTherese]

Your "syllogisms" are as flimsy as a tent in a tornado. Jesus is God only in a qualitative sense (see John 1:1c) and Isaiah and Mark make it clear that God does not have a mother.

What do you mean by "qualitative sense"?

Jesus is God incarnate. The Son (the second person of the Trinity) became man through Mary. A mother is not the "creator" of life, but is the person who brings forth the life in which belongs to the Creator through the means in which the Creator has designed. Before Jesus became man, He was not yet "born" and yet He has always existed...but, not as a human being. Being born is not the same as existing. Jesus was "begotten, not made...for us men and for our salvation, He came down from Heaven and by the power of the Holy Spirit, He was born of the Virgin Mary and became man."

[Brennin]

What do you mean by "qualitative sense"?

Jesus is God incarnate. The Son (the second person of the Trinity) became man through Mary. A mother is not the "creator" of life, but is the person who brings forth the life in which belongs to the Creator through the means in which the Creator has designed. Before Jesus became man, He was not yet "born" and yet He has always existed...but, not as a human being. Being born is not the same as existing. Jesus was "begotten, not made...for us men and for our salvation, He came down from Heaven and by the power of the Holy Spirit, He was born of the Virgin Mary and became man."
I mean that Jesus Christ is not homoousios with God (the Father). Jesus is the Logos Incarnate not God Incarnate, the fevered rantings of Athanasius notwithstanding.

[StTherese]

I mean that Jesus Christ is not homoousios with God (the Father). Jesus is the Logos Incarnate not God Incarnate, the fevered rantings of Athanasius notwithstanding.
the Logos is God...

..."in the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God..."

The Trinity is God....Jesus is God just as much as the Father and the Holy Spirit is God...eternally existing together as the one God...

[Brennin]

the Logos is God...

..."in the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God..."

The Trinity is God....Jesus is God just as much as the Father and the Holy Spirit is God...eternally existing together as the one God...

I am well aware of John 1:1. The final theos is to be taken qualitatively rather than as definite or indefinite.

[Catholic Christian]

I love saying the "Hail Mary". Did you know that the Hail Mary prayer is totally Bible based?

"Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee.
Blessed are thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, mother of God,
pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen"

Lets break it down:

1) Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee (direct quote from scripture: Luke 1:28)

2) Blessed are thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus (direct quote from scripture: Luke 1:42)

3) Holy Mary, mother of God:
(Christ is God incarnate, and since Mary bore God in her womb she is rightly called the Mother of God: "Theotokos", or "God-bearer". Remeber what Elizabeth said: "And how has it happened to me, that the mother of my Lord would come to me?" Luke 1:43)

4) pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen:

Revelation 5:8 shows that the saints in heaven do actively intercede for us, and in 1 Timothy 2:1-4, Paul strongly encouraged Christians to intercede for each other since such prayers are "pleasing to God". Since Paul says that death does not seperate us from God, it is good to ask our departed brothers and sisters to pray for us the same way we would ask those on earth to pray for us. After all, "the effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much" James 5:16 (KJV).

peace to you
from the Catholic Crusader
:crosseo:

[PaladinValer]

My syllogisms are orthodox however.

Nothing else need be said.

[Brennin]

My syllogisms are orthodox however.

Nothing else need be said.
But still false.

[LLWHA]

I love saying the "Hail Mary". Did you know that the Hail Mary prayer is totally Bible based?

"Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee.
Blessed are thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, mother of God,
pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen"

Lets break it down:

1) Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee (direct quote from scripture: Luke 1:28)

2) Blessed are thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus (direct quote from scripture: Luke 1:42)

3) Holy Mary, mother of God:
(Christ is God incarnate, and since Mary bore God in her womb she is rightly called the Mother of God: "Theotokos", or "God-bearer". Remeber what Elizabeth said: "And how has it happened to me, that the mother of my Lord would come to me?" Luke 1:43)

4) pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen:

Revelation 5:8 shows that the saints in heaven do actively intercede for us, and in 1 Timothy 2:1-4, Paul strongly encouraged Christians to intercede for each other since such prayers are "pleasing to God". Since Paul says that death does not seperate us from God, it is good to ask our departed brothers and sisters to pray for us the same way we would ask those on earth to pray for us. After all, "the effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much" James 5:16 (KJV).

peace to you
from the Catholic Crusader
:crosseo:

Praying to Mary is still nothing but idol worship.

[Brennin]

Praying to Mary is still nothing but idol worship.
As is referring to Mary as "queen of heaven." Do mariodules even read the scriptures?

[CaDan]

Praying to Mary is still nothing but idol worship.

As is referring to Mary as "queen of heaven." Do mariodules even read the scriptures?

PV answered this last year in this very thread before it was re-animated zombie-like to roam the forums hungry for human brains.

[StTherese]

As is referring to Mary as "queen of heaven." Do mariodules even read the scriptures?She is queen of heaven because her Son is our King!

In the Old Testament (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Testament) kingdoms of Israel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Israel) and Judah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Judah), the King might, like David (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David) or Solomon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomon), have many wives. The title of Queen, therefore went not to any wife of the king, but to the mother of the king. 1 Kings (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1_Kings) 2 17-21, 1 Kings 15:13, Jeremiah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremiah) 13:18.
The Queen Mother was known in Hebrew (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_language) as the gebirah. Since Jesus is heavenly king, of the lineage of David and Solomon, Mary becomes Queen Mother (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_Mother).

The Roman Catholic Church also sees Mary crowned as queen in heaven in the Revelation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Revelation) 12, verses 1-5.

The book of Psalms also claims the Messiah would have a queen at his right hand, as Mary is portrayed.

She could have said no and rejected the will of God the way most of us do probably on a daily basis...but she didn't. She was obedient and her "yes" brought forth the possibility of the salvation of us all. How can we ignore her role as the Mother of our Savior? This was God's will and thanks be to God for her obedience!

[Brennin]

She is queen of heaven because her Son is our King!

[COLOR=black]She could have said no and rejected the will of God the way most of us do probably on a daily basis...but she didn't. She was obedient and her "yes" brought forth the possibility of the salvation of us all. How can we ignore her role as the Mother of our Savior? This was God's will and thanks be to God for her obedience!
That does not make Mary "queen of heaven." Jeremiah specifically condemned the "queen of heaven" for a reason. The scriptures do not permit Mariolatry, I'm afraid.

[Brennin]

PV answered this last year in this very thread before it was re-animated zombie-like to roam the forums hungry for human brains.
His answer was unsatisfactory.

[StTherese]

That does not make Mary "queen of heaven." Jeremiah specifically condemned the "queen of heaven" for a reason. The scriptures do not permit Mariolatry, I'm afraid.
Catholics do not believe Mary to be God and we do not worship her as such! We recognize her for who she is and her role in God's plan for salvation.

[Catholic Christian]

Praying to Mary is still nothing but idol worship.
Thats just silly. If praying to Mary is idol worship, it would follow that Mary is an idol. She is not. She is the "Gabirah" - the Queen Mother. In the Davidic Kingdoms, the Kings mother was always the queen, and an intercessor. Read about Bathsheeba in the OT: Bathsheba went to Solomon to intercede on behalf of Adonijah, and Solomon put a throne beside his for her to sit on. Jesus is the "Son Of David" and King of kings, and his mother is queen and intercessor. Any Jew would see that plain as day.
http://www.arttimesjournal.com/art/Art%20Essays/April%20'07%20Raudino/Christ_last_judgement.jpg

[CaDan]

His answer was unsatisfactory.

It was very brainy, though. :D

[CaDan]

It is certainly possible for individuals to fall into the error of worshipping Mary to the exclusion of the rightful worship of God. Such individual faults should be dealt with on an individual basis. But condemning the entire Church for those individual errors seems a bit of a hasty generalization.

[Brennin]

Thats just silly. If praying to Mary is idol worship, it would follow that Mary is an idol. She is not. She is the "Gabirah" - the Queen Mother. In the Davidic Kingdoms, the Kings mother was always the queen, and an intercessor. Read about Bathsheeba in the OT: Bathsheba went to Solomon to intercede on behalf of Adonijah, and Solomon put a throne beside his for her to sit on. Jesus is the "Son Of David" and King of kings, and his mother is queen and intercessor. Any Jew would see that plain as day.
You forgot to post the rest of the story. Solomon becomes angry at Adonijah for asking Bathsheba to intercede for him and has him executed. So, by way of analogy, when someone asks Mary to intercede with Jesus Christ for him, Jesus' wrath is kindled against the person and he suffers spiritual death.

[Brennin]

It is certainly possible for individuals to fall into the error of worshipping Mary to the exclusion of the rightful worship of God. Such individual faults should be dealt with on an individual basis. But condemning the entire Church for those individual errors seems a bit of a hasty generalization.
I do not think all Roman Catholics are guilty of Mariolatry.

[Brennin]

Catholics do not believe Mary to be God and we do not worship her as such! We recognize her for who she is and her role in God's plan for salvation.
Mary's role in Christianity was to give birth to Jesus Christ, no more and no less.

[CaDan]

Mary's role in Christianity was to give birth to Jesus Christ, no more and no less.

It's kind of a big role. Not the starring role, certainly, but more than being just another extra in the "cast of thousands."

[WarriorAngel]

I still don't see that it tells us to pray to them.

In most of those verses it was talking about people who were still alive praying to God for each other, or just respecting and honoring the saints/elders/etc., but not to pray to them.
And concerning the angels, most of those say that the angels guard us, but it doesn't say to worship them or pray to them.

Prayers, or conversation with the Saints are petitions for them to pray.

Normally you would not pick up a phone, call your friend and say 'Pray for me.' then hang up...
Well, you might, but it wouldn't very nice.

So prayer [which means conversation and doesnt mean worship] to a Saint is our way of saying 'Hi' and then honoring their position near the Lord, by mentioning the faith we have they are with Him. Then we ask for our petitions to be requested thru them [their prayer] to God.

You can do the very same thing with any person you know.

And if anyone denies that we may ask others, then they are forbidding what scriptures tells us we must do. Pray for one another.

As for myself, the Saints have answered my petitions many times for me to think otherwise.

[Brennin]

It's kind of a big role. Not the starring role, certainly, but more than being just another extra in the "cast of thousands."
We are in agreement on that point.

[LLWHA]

Jesus taught His Followers how to pray.


As normal most all that call themselves His followers do not do as He instructed and follow the traditions of men and churches the things Jesus hates they just LOVE to do.

Matthew. 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the tax-collectors the same?
5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more [than others]? do not even the tax-collectors so?
5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven IS perfect.
6:1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen by them: otherwise ye have NO reward from your Father which is in heaven.
6:2 Therefore when thou doest [thine] alms, do NOT sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites DO in the churches and in the streets, that they may have glory from MEN. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
6:3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:
6:4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret Himself shall reward thee openly.
6:5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt NOT be as the hypocrites [ARE]: for they love to pray standing in the churches and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
6:6But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and WHEN THOU HAST SHUT THY DOOR, pray to thy Father in private; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
6:7 But when ye pray, use NOT vain repetitions, as the heathen [DO]: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
6:8 Be NOT ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, BEFORE ye ask Him.
6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be Thy name.
6:10 Thy Kingdom come. Thy Will be done in earth, as [it is] in heaven.
6:11 Give us this day our daily bread.
6:12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
6:13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For Thine is the Kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

[LLWHA]

She is queen of heaven because her Son is our King!

She could have said no and rejected the will of God the way most of us do probably on a daily basis...but she didn't. She was obedient and her "yes" brought forth the possibility of the salvation of us all. How can we ignore her role as the Mother of our Savior? This was God's will and thanks be to God for her obedience!

Jeremiah 7:18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead [their] dough, to make wafers to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke Me to anger.
7:19 Do they provoke Me to anger? saith the "I AM": [do they] not [provoke] themselves to the confusion of their own faces?
7:20 Therefore thus saith the Lord "I AM"; Behold, Mine anger and My fury shall be poured out upon this place, upon man, and upon beast, and upon the trees of the field, and upon the fruit of the ground; and it shall burn, and shall not be quenched.

44:19 And when we burned incense (or candles) to the queen of heaven, and poured out drink offerings unto her, did we make her wafers (with I.H.S. on them) to worship her, and pour out drink offerings (wine) unto her, without our men?
44:20 Then Jeremiah said unto all the people, to the men, and to the women, and to all the people which had given him [that] answer, saying,
44:21 The incense that ye burned in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem, ye, and your fathers, your kings, and your princes, and the people of the land, did not the "I AM" remember them, and came it [not] into His mind?
44:22 So that the "I AM" could no longer bear, because of the evil of your doings, [and] because of the abominations which ye have committed; therefore is your land a desolation, and an astonishment, and a curse, without an inhabitant, as at this day.

44:25 Thus saith the "I AM" Lord of hosts, the God of Israel, saying; Ye and your wives have both spoken with your mouths, and fulfilled with your hand, saying, We will surely perform our vows that we have vowed, to burn incense (or candles) to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her: ye will surely accomplish your vows, and surely perform your vows.

This Mary worship goes back to Babylonian pagan fertility goddess Ishtar of the Babylonian Mystery Religion of Sun-worship on Sundays.

When the Babylonians lost a great war they moved to Rome and brought this evil with them.

Koran Sura 17:5. When the first of the warnings came to pass, We sent against you (Jerusalem) Our servants given to terrible warfare (the Babylonians - king [COLOR=#810081]Nebuchadnezzar (file://G:\Jah\jere.htm)): they entered the very inmost parts of your homes and it was a warning (completely) fulfilled.
6. Then did We grant you the Return as against them: We gave you increase in resources and sons, and made you the more numerous in man-power.
7. If ye did well, ye did well for yourselves; if ye did evil, (ye did it) against yourselves. So when the second of the warnings came to pass, (We permitted your enemies) to disfigure your faces, and to enter your Temple as they* had entered it before, and to visit with destruction all that fell into their power.


That is part of how this Mary worship got into the Roman church along with the Egyptian goddess Isis and her traditions.

http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/monstr.htm

God hates this fraud.

Mary could have called herself a Queen on earth but there is NO queen in Heaven.

[Brennin]

Jeremiah 7:18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead [their] dough, to make wafers to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke Me to anger.
7:19 Do they provoke Me to anger? saith the "I AM": [do they] not [provoke] themselves to the confusion of their own faces?
7:20 Therefore thus saith the Lord "I AM"; Behold, Mine anger and My fury shall be poured out upon this place, upon man, and upon beast, and upon the trees of the field, and upon the fruit of the ground; and it shall burn, and shall not be quenched.

44:19 And when we burned incense (or candles) to the queen of heaven, and poured out drink offerings unto her, did we make her wafers (with I.H.S. on them) to worship her, and pour out drink offerings (wine) unto her, without our men?
44:20 Then Jeremiah said unto all the people, to the men, and to the women, and to all the people which had given him [that] answer, saying,
44:21 The incense that ye burned in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem, ye, and your fathers, your kings, and your princes, and the people of the land, did not the "I AM" remember them, and came it [not] into His mind?
44:22 So that the "I AM" could no longer bear, because of the evil of your doings, [and] because of the abominations which ye have committed; therefore is your land a desolation, and an astonishment, and a curse, without an inhabitant, as at this day.

44:25 Thus saith the "I AM" Lord of hosts, the God of Israel, saying; Ye and your wives have both spoken with your mouths, and fulfilled with your hand, saying, We will surely perform our vows that we have vowed, to burn incense (or candles) to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her: ye will surely accomplish your vows, and surely perform your vows.

This Mary worship goes back to Babylonian pagan fertility goddess Ishtar of the Babylonian Mystery Religion of Sun-worship on Sundays.

When the Babylonians lost a great war they moved to Rome and brought this evil with them.

Koran Sura 17:5. When the first of the warnings came to pass, We sent against you (Jerusalem) Our servants given to terrible warfare (the Babylonians - king Nebuchadnezzar (file://G:\Jah\jere.htm)): they entered the very inmost parts of your homes and it was a warning (completely) fulfilled.
6. Then did We grant you the Return as against them: We gave you increase in resources and sons, and made you the more numerous in man-power.
7. If ye did well, ye did well for yourselves; if ye did evil, (ye did it) against yourselves. So when the second of the warnings came to pass, (We permitted your enemies) to disfigure your faces, and to enter your Temple as they* had entered it before, and to visit with destruction all that fell into their power.


That is part of how this Mary worship got into the Roman church along with the Egyptian goddess Isis and her traditions.

http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/monstr.htm

God hates this fraud.

Mary could have called herself a Queen on earth but there is NO queen in Heaven.





Don't pester mariodules with relevant scripture. Their moldy traditions trump the word of God!

[Catholic Christian]

Fundamentalists often challenge the Catholic practice of asking saints and angels to pray on our behalf. But the Bible directs us to invoke those in heaven and ask them to pray with us.

Thus, in Psalm 103 we pray, "Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!" (Ps. 103:20–21). And in the opening verses of Psalms 148 we pray, "Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!"

Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In the book of Revelation, John sees that "the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5:8). Thus the saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth.

Angels do the same thing: "[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God" (Rev. 8:3–4).

Jesus himself warned us not to offend small children, because their guardian angels have guaranteed intercessory access to the Father: "See that you do not despise one of these little ones; for I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven" (Matt. 18:10).

Because he is the only God-man and the Mediator of the New Covenant, Jesus is the only mediator between man and God (1 Tim. 2:5), but this in no way means we cannot or should not ask our fellow Christians to pray with us and for us (1 Tim. 2:1–4). In particular, we should ask the intercession of those Christians in heaven, who have already had their sanctification completed, for "[t]he prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects" (Jas. 5:16).

[Catholic Christian]

That is part of how this Mary worship got into the Roman church along with the Egyptian goddess Isis and her traditions.

Idolatry (from the Catechism Of The Catholic Church):
http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect2chpt1.htm

2112 - The first commandment condemns polytheism. It requires man neither to believe in, nor to venerate, other divinities than the one true God. Scripture constantly recalls this rejection of "idols, [of] silver and gold, the work of men's hands. They have mouths, but do not speak; eyes, but do not see." These empty idols make their worshippers empty: "Those who make them are like them; so are all who trust in them."42 God, however, is the "living God" who gives life and intervenes in history.

2113 - Idolatry not only refers to false pagan worship. It remains a constant temptation to faith. Idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. Man commits idolatry whenever he honors and reveres a creature in place of God, whether this be gods or demons (for example, satanism), power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state, money, etc. Jesus says, "You cannot serve God and mammon."44 Many martyrs died for not adoring "the Beast"45 refusing even to simulate such worship. Idolatry rejects the unique Lordship of God; it is therefore incompatible with communion with God.

2114 - Human life finds its unity in the adoration of the one God. The commandment to worship the Lord alone integrates man and saves him from an endless disintegration. Idolatry is a perversion of man's innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who "transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God."

[Catholic Christian]

You forgot to post the rest of the story. Solomon becomes angry at Adonijah for asking Bathsheba to intercede for him and has him executed. So, by way of analogy, when someone asks Mary to intercede with Jesus Christ for him, Jesus' wrath is kindled against the person and he suffers spiritual death.
The difference is that Mary - or ANYONE in heaven for that matter - would not ask Jesus to do something wrong.

Besisdes, your point does not change the fact that In the Davidic Kingdoms, the Kings mother was always the queen, and an intercessor.

http://www.arttimesjournal.com/art/Art%20Essays/April%20'07%20Raudino/Christ_last_judgement.jpg

[Catholic Christian]

Mary's role in Christianity was to give birth to Jesus Christ, no more and no less.
I'm curious: Would you go up to your OWN mother and say: "You're role in my life was to give birth to me; no more, no less"? I have a funny feeling your mom would not appreciate that very much.

If God chose her out of all time to bear His Son, and if Scripture says of her "All generations shall call me blessed", should we not give her the honor she deserves, based in the singular honor God saw fit to bestow upon her?

http://saintmary.mvn.net/Images/Mary-Jesus&Lamb.jpg

[Brennin]

I'm curious: Would you go up to your OWN mother and say: "You're role in my life was to give birth to me; no more, no less"? I have a funny feeling your mom would not appreciate that very much.

If God chose her out of all time to bear His Son, and if Scripture says of her "All generations shall call me blessed", should we not give her the honor she deserves, based in the singular honor God saw fit to bestow upon her?



I included the clause "in Christianity" for a reason.

[Brennin]

The difference is that Mary - or ANYONE in heaven for that matter - would not ask Jesus to do something wrong.

Besisdes, your point does not change the fact that In the Davidic Kingdoms, the Kings mother was always the queen, and an intercessor.



There is only one instance of a "queen mother" in the Hebrew Scriptures and that is the one I cited. Moreover, it does not support the false claim that Mary is "queen of heaven," despite your wishful thinking. Jesus did not rule Israel in the "Davidic style" and he did not address Mary as "queen mother."

[Catholic Christian]

There is only one instance of a "queen mother" in the Hebrew Scriptures and that is the one I cited. Moreover, it does not support the false claim that Mary is "queen of heaven," despite your wishful thinking. Jesus did not rule Israel in the "Davidic style" and he did not address Mary as "queen mother."
To understand Mary's Queenship, you must understand Jewish culture. In the Davidic Kingdom, the mother of the King was always the Queen. The word in MIddle Eastern nations for this was the "Gabirah", or "queen mother".


Likewise, Jesus is the "son of David" and is the new King. It goes without saying, therefore, that his mother is the queen - the Gabirah. Any Jew would know that, ESPECIALLY the apostles.

Understanding Mary as queen mother sheds light on her important intercessory role in the Christian life. Just like the queen mother of the Davidic kingdom, Mary serves as advocate for the people in the Kingdom of God today. Thus, we should approach our queen mother with confidence, knowing that she carries our petitions to her royal son and that he responds to her as Solomon did to Bathsheba: "I will never refuse you."

I suggest you read this link:
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1998/9812fea2.asp (http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1998/9812fea2.asp)

[Brennin]

To understand Mary's Queenship, you must understand Jewish culture. In the Davidic Kingdom, the mother of the King was always the Queen. The word in MIddle Eastern nations for this was the "Gabirah", or "queen mother".


Likewise, Jesus is the "son of David" and is the new King. It goes without saying, therefore, that his mother is the queen - the Gabirah. Any Jew would know that, ESPECIALLY the apostles.

Understanding Mary as queen mother sheds light on her important intercessory role in the Christian life. Just like the queen mother of the Davidic kingdom, Mary serves as advocate for the people in the Kingdom of God today. Thus, we should approach our queen mother with confidence, knowing that she carries our petitions to her royal son and that he responds to her as Solomon did to Bathsheba: "I will never refuse you."

I suggest you read this link:
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1998/9812fea2.asp (http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1998/9812fea2.asp)
I have already dealt a blow to that anemic RC apologia.

[Catholic Christian]

I have already dealt a blow to that anemic RC apologia.

I have noticed that you use a lot of terms which bring fighting and battle to mind. Discussion between Christians of different faith traditions should be charitable, and done with an eye toward better understanding. Why do you seem to be so ready to brawl, always on the offensive?

[Technocrat2010]

I have already dealt a blow to that anemic RC apologia.
Where?

[Technocrat2010]

There is only one instance of a "queen mother" in the Hebrew Scriptures and that is the one I cited. Moreover, it does not support the false claim that Mary is "queen of heaven," despite your wishful thinking. Jesus did not rule Israel in the "Davidic style" and he did not address Mary as "queen mother."

Correct. Jesus did not rule Israel in the "Davidic style".

Why?

Because His kingdom is not of this world. His Kingdom is that of Heaven, not of Israel.

[Gary51]

Have you ever asked anyone to pray for you?
Only earth bound living people.

Not dead people... as they can't hear prayer.

[Catholic Christian]

Take 98 :)


This had already been explained by St. Thomas: Prayer (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12345b.htm) is offered to a person (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11726a.htm) in two ways: one as though to be granted by himself, another as to be obtained through him. In the first way we pray (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12345b.htm) to God (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm) alone, because all our prayers (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12345b.htm) ought to be directed to obtaining grace and glory (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06585a.htm) which God (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm) alone gives, according to those words of the Psalm (lxxxiii, 12): 'The Lord will give grace and glory (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06585a.htm).' But in the second way we pray (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12345b.htm) to the holy angels (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01476d.htm) and to men not that God (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm) may learn our petition through them, but that by their prayers (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12345b.htm) and merits (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10202b.htm) our prayers (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12345b.htm) may be efficacious. Wherefore it is said in the Apocalypse (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01594b.htm) (viii, 4): 'And the smoke of the incense (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07716a.htm) of the prayers (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12345b.htm) of the saints (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04171a.htm) ascended up before God (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm) from the hand of the angel (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01476d.htm)' (Summ. Theol., II-II, Q. lxxxiii, a. 4).
The reasonableness of the Catholic teaching (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05075b.htm) and practice cannot be better stated than in St. Jerome's (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08341a.htm) words: If the Apostles (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01626c.htm) and Martyrs (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09736b.htm), while still in the body, can pray (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12345b.htm) for others, at a time (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14726a.htm) when they must still be anxious for themselves, how much more after their crowns, victories, and triumphs are won! One man (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09580c.htm), Moses (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10596a.htm), obtains from God (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm) pardon for six hundred thousand men in arms; and Stephen, the imitator of the Lord, and the first martyr (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09736b.htm) in Christ, begs forgiveness for his persecutors (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11703a.htm); and shall their power be less after having begun to be with Christ? The Apostle Paul (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11567b.htm) declares that two hundred three score and sixteen souls (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14153a.htm), sailing with him, were freely given him; and, after he is dissolved and has begun to be with Christ, shall he close his lips, and not be able to utter a word in behalf of those who throughout the whole world believed (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02408b.htm) at his preaching of the Gospel? And shall the living dog Vigilantius be better than that dead lion? ("Contra Vigilant.", n. 6, in P. L., XXIII, 344).
Great quotes. In Catholic understanding, prayer is a "request". When we pray to those who have gone to heaven ahead of us, we are making a "request" of them. And what is that request? It is that THEY pray for US. Protestants do it all the time, but they limit themselves to making this request only of people still on earth. In this, the protestant view of the Church is very narrow. You see, Romans 8: 38-39 says: "neither death nor life.. ..present nor the future.. ..height nor depth.. ..will be able to separate us...".; The Family of God transcends death. We ALL LIVE IN CHRIST.

It is important to note that praying to saints is not a requirement of Catholics, just an option: Just as a protestant doesnt HAVE to ask a friend to pray for them, but they can

Heb 12: 22-24 says that as we approach God, Jesus and the angels, we also approach "the spirits of righteous men made perfect". In other words, THE SAINTS

BUT, can they Hear Us? Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. For example, in Revelation 5:8, John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.

Oh, the intercession of fellow Christians in heaven also clearly does not interfere with Christ’s unique mediatorship because in the four verses immediately preceding 1 Timothy 2:5, Paul says that Christians should interceed: "First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:1–4). Clearly, intercessory prayers offered by Christians on behalf of others is something "good and pleasing to God"

Biblical references:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp (http://www.catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp)

[Catholic Christian]

Only earth bound living people.

Not dead people... as they can't hear prayer.
People in heaven are not dead, and they can hear us. Read my previous post, number 80

[Gary51]

People in heaven are not dead, and they can hear us. Read my previous post, number 80
No need to... What I say is fact.

[Technocrat2010]

No need to... What I say is fact.
Demonstrate that those in Heaven are not aware of our actions, especially in light of Luke 15:10, for example.

[WarriorAngel]

Dead means in hell.
Life means in Heaven.

Read Revelation backwards from the second coming to the start and you will see those who die and are in Heaven will be interested in what goes on on earth.

Especially in light of the fact saints will judge the nations.

[Catholic Christian]

Only earth bound living people.

Not dead people... as they can't hear prayer.
Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. For example, in Revelation 5:8, John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.

Heb 12: 22-24 says that as we approach God, Jesus and the angels, we also approach "the spirits of righteous men made perfect". In other words, THE SAINTS

[Catholic Christian]

hey, I think I won one :)

[Gary51]

Demonstrate that those in Heaven are not aware of our actions, especially in light of Luke 15:10, for example.
There is no one in heaven.

Other than Elijah and Enoch, can you name anyone in heaven?

And while you're at it, can you give one name that is burning in hell?

[Catholic Christian]

To those of you who believe pray to saints or Mary, can you give me reasons, or Scriptural support of this? :confused:

I don't understand this practice. It seems to contradicts Christianity. :scratch:

Can anyone explain this to me?
To address the OP, I will again illustrate a point:

1. When did Jesus tell the Apostles to write the New Testament? He didn't, according to the Bible.
2. When did Jesus specifically use the word, "Trinity"? He didn't, according to the Bible.

So when people ask "when did Jesus tell us to pray to Mary", and other similar questions, my reply is "He didn't, and it doesn't matter." The point is that there are Biblical "principals" on which Christian teachings are based. Not everything is “specifically” stated in black and white in the Scriptures. As I said, the word "Trinity" is not in the Bible but most Christians believe in the Trinity.

So, what about prayer to Mary and the saints in heaven? Those in heaven pray with us and for us, as in the book of Revelation when John sees that "the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5:8). A prayer is a request. When we pray to Mary and the saints in heaven, we are asking them to pray for us, the same way non-Catholic Christians ask their friends or family to pray for them.
Question: When you ask your friends or family to pray for you, does that take away from Jesus or his role as mediator? Of course not, and neither does praying to our brother and sisters in heaven. Because he is the only God-man and the Mediator of the New Covenant, Jesus is the only mediator between man and God (1 Tim. 2:5), but this in no way means we cannot or should not ask our fellow Christians to pray with us and for us (1 Tim. 2:1–4). In particular, we should ask the intercession of those Christians in heaven, who have already had their sanctification completed, for "[t]he prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects" (Jas. 5:16). The family of God transcends death: You are still a Christian even when you are in heaven, and you can still pray for your brothers and sisters when you are there. Catholics believe Jesus when he says, "He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive" (Luke 20:38).

Hebrews 12: 22-24 says that as we approach God, Jesus and the angels, we also approach "the spirits of righteous men made perfect". In other words, THE SAINTS. "But they can't hear us" you may say. Wrong. As Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. For example, in Revelation 5:8, John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.

I invite you to read this a better explanation:
>http://www.catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.as (http://www.catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp)p (http://www.catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp)

[Gary51]

The thing is Mary is dead, so your wasting your time.

[Catholic Christian]

There is no one in heaven.
Nice

Other than Elijah and Enoch, can you name anyone in heaven?

Moses. Remember? That guy who showed up at the transfiguration? And how about the spirits that were in prison that Christ preached to (1 Peter 3:19).

And while you're at it, can you give one name that is burning in hell?

I'll leave that to you, since you seem better suited to judging people than I am.

[Gary51]

Nice



Moses. Remember? That guy who showed up at the transfiguration? And how about the spirits that were in prison that Christ preached to (1 Peter 3:19).



I'll leave that to you, since you seem better suited to judging people than I am.
The transfiguration was not a literal event... it was a vision.

Jesus said, "Tell no one of this vision"

[Catholic Christian]

There is no one in heaven.

Hebrews 12: 22-24: "But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant..."


So, in heaven, we have angels, Jesus, and the spirits of righteous men made perfect.

TIP: Do try to read your Bible a little more carefully, Gary

[Catholic Christian]

The transfiguration was not a literal event... it was a vision.



I see: So we have a "vision" of one person who is in heaven, and one who is not. Ooookay, if you say so.

[Gary51]

Hebrews 12: 22-24: "But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant..."


So, in heaven, we have angels, Jesus, and the spirits of righteous men made perfect.

TIP: Do try to read your Bible a little more carefully, Gary
How does that change the fact the tranfiguration was a vision?

And did I not say name anyone other than Elijah and Enoch. Which you can not do.

Just like you can not give one name of anyone burning in hell.

[Tdigaetano]

These forms really become hard on Catholics because for what ever reason people won't open their eyes to what we really believe then continue to spread lies and evil to those who are seeking the truth.

A bad person may steal and kill.... however an evil man may do none of these things instead the evil person is one who seeks to destroy good in others, by corrupting the youth and trying to destroy both faith and morals.

[LLWHA]

however an evil man may do none of these things instead the evil person is one who seeks to destroy good in others, by corrupting the youth and trying to destroy both faith and morals.

Sounds just like catholic priests to me.

[MrPolo]

How does that change the fact the tranfiguration was a vision

Actually, what Jesus said was, "Do not tell the vision to anyone until the Son of Man has been raised from the dead." That means don't tell anyone what you saw until after the Resurrection. Mt. 1:2 says "And he was transfigured before them". There is no indication that this was some sort of hallucination. :)

[Gary51]

Actually, what Jesus said was, "Do not tell the vision to anyone until the Son of Man has been raised from the dead." That means don't tell anyone what you saw until after the Resurrection. Mt. 1:2 says "And he was transfigured before them". There is no indication that this was some sort of hallucination. :)
My point is because Jesus said, "tell no one of this vision" what happened was a vision not a real literal event.

[Athanasias]

The transfiguration was not a literal event... it was a vision.

Jesus said, "Tell no one of this vision"


Who says visions cannot be literal or real. If you have a vision of God or a angel like Mary and Joesph did was that not a real event that literally happened? Your grasping at straws here,

[WarriorAngel]

The vision in this case...meant that the APostles 'saw' the men in Heaven speaking to Christ. [The few who were taken up]
Aand if it was just a vision...[as you are trying to suggest] that was an illusion...then why did Peter desire to set up three tents??

Evidently Peter saw them quite clearly and didnt feel they were a viision, hence his idea to provide them shelter.

[Gary51]

The vision in this case...meant that the APostles 'saw' the men in Heaven speaking to Christ. [The few who were taken up]
Aand if it was just a vision...[as you are trying to suggest] that was an illusion...then why did Peter desire to set up three tents??

Evidently Peter saw them quite clearly and didnt feel they were a viision, hence his idea to provide them shelter.I don't believe that...

I believe it was a vision of the future resurrection.

Visions are generally about future events.

[Technocrat2010]

Visions are generally about future events.

According to whom?

[ThomasAbel70]

I don't believe that...

I believe it was a vision of the future resurrection.

Visions are generally about future events.

Fact:

Jesus spoke to two dead men.

Vision or not. What Peter saw was Jesus talking to The Dead who were glorified.

They were dead and weren't ressurected yet (that is, until Matthew 27:52 upon His sacrifice).

[MoNiCa4316]

To those of you who believe pray to saints or Mary, can you give me reasons, or Scriptural support of this? :confused:

I don't understand this practice. It seems to contradicts Christianity. :scratch:

Can anyone explain this to me?

:wave:We don't pray to Saints and Mary, we ask them for prayer. Just like we can ask our brothers and sisters on earth to pray for us, we can ask our brothers and sisters in heaven... we believe their prayers are powerful because the "prayer of a righteous man avails much", and they're united with God in heaven and so are definitely righteous.. they love us and want to pray for us, especially because they see all the more clearly the darkness we live in right now. Christians don't stop being part of the Church once they die. They also serve God by praying for us because they are showing love.

btw Saints are NOT mediators, they're intercessors. Just like you and I can be intercessors here on earth, but in a more powerful way.

Hope that helps..

God bless

[MoNiCa4316]

What do you mean? Do the saints offer your prayers to Christ? Why do you go through a Saint, when Christ said you can pray to him?

Does this petition the Saints make to Christ act in the same way regarding sins?

Do you ever ask your Christian friends to pray for you? If so, why? Why ask someone to pray for you when you can just go to Christ? :)

You see we pray to Christ lots too, but we also ask the Saints for prayer because their prayers are more powerful. God loves everyone equally and hears everyone's prayers, but as it says - the prayer of a righteous man avails much.
We don't 'go through' Saints, they are intercessors who pray with us, not instead of us.

[MoNiCa4316]

I believe that the saints and the angels already pray for us, but that communication with the dead is considered divination.

Wanting messages from them (especially about the future) can be divination.. we don't ask the Saints to speak to us, but to pray for us. We don't expect them to have a conversation with us.

Not only that, but they are not dead, they are alive with God in heaven.

Divination/Witchcraft- communication with the dead or supernatural other than God, or praying or using any supernatural or physical power besides God alone to get what you need or want, whether or not it is malicious or intentional

thankfully, we ask the Saints for prayer by the power of the Holy Spirit, not by any power besides God :) it is the Holy Spirit who unites us all, and it is He who makes all this possible.

[Tdigaetano]

Peter said Jesus did it. So it's ok for us to do it.

Or maybe that is to easy of a explination.

1 Peter 3:18-20

[MamaZ]

Peter said Jesus did it. So it's ok for us to do it.

Or maybe that is to easy of a explination.

1 Peter 3:18-20
1Pe 3:18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;
1Pe 3:19 in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison,
1Pe 3:20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.
1Pe 3:21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
1Pe 3:22 who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.

so in order to pray to the saints you have to die? For these spirits were in prison and rose from the dead as Christ rose them. Being seen from many.

[Tdigaetano]

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;

Romans 8:13
for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

It is the mystery of Baptism that we die to the Flesh and made alive in Spirit, allowing us to communicate with others in the Body of Christ for all are alive either on Earth or in Heaven.

But I guess some think Baptism is just a Symbol and has nothing to do with salvation....