Faith without works

[TamaraLynne]

is dead....................

Jas 2:15If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

Jas 2:16And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

Jas 2:17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Jas 2:18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.

Jas 2:19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

Jas 2:20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Jas 2:21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Jas 2:22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Jas 2:23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Jas 2:24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Jas 2:25Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

Jas 2:26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.




I have been going over and over this.........

I know atheist who produce what we call fruit.....love,patience,.......fruit of the spirit but they have not faith.........

then I have seen Christians with faith that produce good and bad fruit....including myself at times....and the Holy Spirit is working on me.......and yes I am ashamed of my bad fruit....fruit is the tangible evidence of works ...right?


I'm having a hard time understanding works........


Can someone help me understand in full?.......please......

I mean as far as feeding the body and giving to drink.....to do this in the natural is good....does it also to mean in the spiritual?.....is it about letting God work through us? about being a willing vessel? I understand also that I'm not the sower but God is......so anything produced is of him.........not me.

But still I am unsure of what my job is other then denying myself ,picking up my cross and following Jesus........

Is it about not resisting the Holy Spirit? To step into the office God has made me for.....to let the gifts of the Holy Spirit flow?

I was going to post this question on general theology but thought this the better place.........

Please..........what is works?

Love
Tam

[choirfiend]

Works is doing God's will. Sometimes this is about letting His will overcome your resistance to it--like acting in Christ's love to someone you don't like.

Sometimes it means YOU, really YOU, not just Him working through you, struggling. He will give you strength, but you are your own creature, who must do your own works.

This is YOU making the choice to believe in Him, to have faith. The action of having faith is a work. The actions that you MUST try to do when you believe, desiring to follow His will, are works. This is loving others as Christ. It is self sacrifice. It is serving others. It is humility, patience, asceticism, running the race. It is prayer. It is attending church. It is receiving the sacraments. It is fasting and self-denial. It is feeding the hungry, giving drink to the thirsty, clothing the naked, visiting the sick and imprisoned. It is seeing Christ in every person who bears His image and acting in love. It is working within your self, in your soul, conforming yourself to the Holy Spirit, and working outside yourself, living as Christ lives. It is opening yourself to God's grace and then ACTING with that grace.

This next part is very important. It is you, working not only as a conduit for God, a mere vessel through which He may do good, but as an active cooperation, you and God working TOGETHER. This is a difference that the Orthodox teach that others do not, and that you may not have heard before. As God and Man came together in the Person of Jesus Christ, so God and men work together, God supplying the strength, men taking the strength and using it to overcome the desire to do evil, doing good instead.

[eoe]

Protestants do their best to remove works from salvation but the two are inseparable. One reason for this is because of the whole "single point in time juridical atonement" theology that they have developed over the last few hundred years.

#1 - We are saved from sin and death not simply from guilt.
What does this mean? Salvation is a regenerative process wherein we are restored to our original purpose and likeness. That means that we are fundamentally altered by this process.

#2 - IF you want to hit home runs, you have to go out to the batting cage and hit baseballs.
Huh? Well... think about it. If a baseball player wants to excell at his sport then he has to actuall go out and practice. This practice hones his skill. He is fundamentally altered by it. The practice changes him into the type of person that can hit home runs.
It is the exact same thing with good works. If you want to be the type of person that is loving to his brother - you actually have to do it. If you are a greedy person and you begin to give alms - you stop being a greedy person and over time you become generous. You are fundamentally altered by the experience. You have not earned anything at all - you have simply been altered by the experience.
IF you want to be the type of person that feeds the homeless then you have to go out and do it.
IF you want to be the type of person that visits the sick - DO IT. It is this doing that opens up a channel by which we can be fundamentally altered by the grace of God.

God give us the opportunities and the ability to do these things but he does not force us. Often times they are not fun - we have to choose to do something that is unpleasant or even painful but in doing so we make a concrete move towards God and in doing so we are changed, our faith becomes active and salvific because it attracts the grace of God. We are fundamentally changed and bit by bit we are restored to our original purpose. We stop sinning, vice fades and virtue grows. THIS IS SALVATION. This is a great big part of it and it can not be taken away.

[EmperorConstantine]

You know that part in Matthew when Christ said "I was hungry and you gave me food. I was thirsty and you gave me to drink..."

That (or so my priest told me if I recall correctly) is the "rubric" for how God will judge us.

eoe, you have earned some reps. :thumbsup:

[Knowledge3]

For me, my personal salvation consists of prayer and the sacramental life of the Church.

In order to be saved, I must pray and it is my duty to pray.

[TamaraLynne]

Hmmmmmmm................I think I have understood works just never really put my finger on it as works.......


And there are two kinds of works....?

[Xpycoctomos]

Hmmmmmmm................I think I have understood works just never really put my finger on it as works.......


And there are two kinds of works....?
I think in reality most level headed protestants (and theiur denomination) don't ACTUALLY disagree with what we say when it comes down to it. I mean, they may say they disagree becuase saying that works are vital to salvation sounds "too Catholic". But when it comes down to it, they agree, they just tend to sugar coat the language more.

I'm oversimplifying it a bit. i mean, Luther's "utterly depraved" "snow-covered dung-hill" seems to suggest (or scream?) that we play NO cogniscent or willful part in our slavation (only our damnation)... but even this I wonder how much they honestly believe that. Becuase that, taken to it's logical conclusion is nothing but calvinistic pre-desitnation and the lutheran mindset I just don't think screams this from it's core. Anyway... I guess I am just saying that some protestants (not you at all) don't want to believe that they are more like catholics than they'd liek to admit. (PS I say catholics becuase they don't know enough about us Orthodox to be scared of us yet lol)

John :)

[Guineverelyndy]

I think in reality most level headed protestants (and theiur denomination) don't ACTUALLY disagree with what we say when it comes down to it. I mean, they may say they disagree becuase saying that works are vital to salvation sounds "too Catholic". But when it comes down to it, they agree, they just tend to sugar coat the language more.

I'm oversimplifying it a bit. i mean, Luther's "utterly depraved" "snow-covered dung-hill" seems to suggest (or scream?) that we play NO cogniscent or willful part in our slavation (only our damnation)... but even this I wonder how much they honestly believe that. Becuase that, taken to it's logical conclusion is nothing but calvinistic pre-desitnation and the lutheran mindset I just don't think screams this from it's core. Anyway... I guess I am just saying that some protestants (not you at all) don't want to believe that they are more like catholics than they'd liek to admit. (PS I say catholics becuase they don't know enough about us Orthodox to be scared of us yet lol)

John :)
I completely agree with this. I've been discovering that as I've studied Orthodoxy, its explanation of faith and works fully describes what I believed before but could not articulate very well. When I talked to my priest about it for the first time, he agreed with me when I told him that it seems that the Orthodox don't necessarily define Salvation differently so much as they define faith itself differently. Many Protestants try to divorce works from the true meaning of faith, thus making it something that is not truly faith at all.

[BabyLutheran]

My Protestant friends believe (I am oversimplifying a bit) that if you aren't doing good works, you have to wonder whether you are really saved. Meaning, if you are truly saved, you pretty much have no choice but to perform good works, but these works don't really save you.

I find that Orthodoxy makes the most sense, but that the above Protestant view isn't all that awful IMO. Not all Protestants believe that way though.

[ma2000]

As I was taught in Orthodox religion classes, in order to be saved, we need the gift of Holy Spirit, faith and good deeds.

As far as I understood, the "works" that the Protestants speak of, refer to those good deeds, but might also refer to the sacraments.

http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/sermon_st_seraphim.htm

Sorry for the long post. Although the article is very long, it is worth reading it. I'll just copy a part of it. It's a conversation between Saint Seraphim of Sarov and a man called Motovilov.

"However prayer, fasting, vigil and all the other Christian practices may be, they do not constitute the aim of our Christian life. Although it is true that they serve as the indispensable means of reaching this end, the true aim of our Christian life consists of the acquisition of the Holy Spirit of God. As for fasts, and vigils, and prayer, and almsgiving, and every good deed done for Christ's sake, are the only means of acquiring the Holy Spirit of God. Mark my words, only good deeds done for Christ's sake brings us the fruits of the Holy Spirit. All that is not done for Christ's sake, even though it be good, brings neither reward in the future life nor the grace of God in this life. That is why our Lord Jesus Christ said: "He who does not gather with Me scatters" (Luke 11:23). Not that a good deed can be called anything but gathering, even though a deed is not done for Christ's sake, it is still considered good. The Scriptures say: "In every nation he who fears God and does what is right is acceptable to Him" (Acts 10:35).

"As we see from another sacred narrative, the man who does what is right is pleasing to God. We see the Angel of the Lord appeared at the hour of prayer to Cornelius, the God-fearing and righteous centurion, and said: "Send to Joppa to Simon the Tanner; there you will find Peter and he will tell you the words of eternal life, whereby you will be saved and all your house." Thus the Lord uses all His divine means to give such a man, in return for his good works, the opportunity not to lose his reward in the future life. But to this end, we must begin with a right faith in our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, Who came into the world to save sinners and Who, through our acquiring for ourselves the grace of the Holy Spirit, brings into our hearts the Kingdom of God and opens the way for us to win the blessings of the future life. But the acceptability to God of good deeds not done for Christ's sake is limited to this: the Creator gives the means to make them living (cf. Hebrews. 6:1). It rests with man to make them living or not. That is why the Lord said to the Jews: "If you had been blind, you would have had no sin. But now you say 'We see,' so your sin remains" (John 9:41). If a man like Cornelius enjoys the favor of God for his deeds, though not done for Christ's sake, and then believes in His Son, such deeds will be imputed to him as done for Christ's sake. But in the opposite event a man has no right to complain, when the good he has done is useless. It never is, when it is done for Christ's sake, since good done for Him not only merits a crown of righteousness in the world to come, but also in this present life fills us with the grace of the Holy Spirit. Moreover, it is said: "God does not give the Spirit by measure" (John 3:34-35).

"That is it, your Godliness. Acquiring the Spirit of God is the true aim of our Christian life, while prayer, fasting, almsgiving and other good works done for Christ's sake are merely means for acquiring the Spirit of God."

[...]
And this same fire-infusing grace of the Holy Spirit which is given to us all, the faithful in Christ, in the Sacrament of Holy Baptism, is sealed by the Sacrament of Chrismation on the chief parts of our body as appointed by the Holy Church, the eternal keeper of this grace.
[...]
They were washed with their sufferings and made white in the communion of the immaculate and life-giving Mysteries of the Body and Blood of the most pure and spotless Lamb - Christ - Who was slain before all ages by His own will for the salvation of the world, and Who is continually being slain and divided until now, but is never exhausted (in the Sacrament of Communion). Through the Holy Mysteries we are granted our eternal and unfailing salvation as a viaticum to eternal life, as an acceptable answer at His dread judgment and a precious substitute beyond our comprehension for that fruit of the tree of life of which the enemy of mankind, Lucifer, who fell from heaven, would have liked to deprive the human race.

[Xpycoctomos]

As I was taught in Orthodox religion classes, in order to be saved, we need the gift of Holy Spirit, faith and good deeds.

As far as I understood, the "works" that the Protestants speak of, refer to those good deeds, but might also refer to the sacraments.

http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/sermon_st_seraphim.htm

Sorry for the long post. Although the article is very long, it is worth reading it. I'll just copy a part of it. It's a conversation between Saint Seraphim of Sarov and a man called Motovilov.

"However prayer, fasting, vigil and all the other Christian practices may be, they do not constitute the aim of our Christian life. Although it is true that they serve as the indispensable means of reaching this end, the true aim of our Christian life consists of the acquisition of the Holy Spirit of God. As for fasts, and vigils, and prayer, and almsgiving, and every good deed done for Christ's sake, are the only means of acquiring the Holy Spirit of God. Mark my words, only good deeds done for Christ's sake brings us the fruits of the Holy Spirit. All that is not done for Christ's sake, even though it be good, brings neither reward in the future life nor the grace of God in this life. That is why our Lord Jesus Christ said: "He who does not gather with Me scatters" (Luke 11:23). Not that a good deed can be called anything but gathering, even though a deed is not done for Christ's sake, it is still considered good. The Scriptures say: "In every nation he who fears God and does what is right is acceptable to Him" (Acts 10:35).

"As we see from another sacred narrative, the man who does what is right is pleasing to God. We see the Angel of the Lord appeared at the hour of prayer to Cornelius, the God-fearing and righteous centurion, and said: "Send to Joppa to Simon the Tanner; there you will find Peter and he will tell you the words of eternal life, whereby you will be saved and all your house." Thus the Lord uses all His divine means to give such a man, in return for his good works, the opportunity not to lose his reward in the future life. But to this end, we must begin with a right faith in our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, Who came into the world to save sinners and Who, through our acquiring for ourselves the grace of the Holy Spirit, brings into our hearts the Kingdom of God and opens the way for us to win the blessings of the future life. But the acceptability to God of good deeds not done for Christ's sake is limited to this: the Creator gives the means to make them living (cf. Hebrews. 6:1). It rests with man to make them living or not. That is why the Lord said to the Jews: "If you had been blind, you would have had no sin. But now you say 'We see,' so your sin remains" (John 9:41). If a man like Cornelius enjoys the favor of God for his deeds, though not done for Christ's sake, and then believes in His Son, such deeds will be imputed to him as done for Christ's sake. But in the opposite event a man has no right to complain, when the good he has done is useless. It never is, when it is done for Christ's sake, since good done for Him not only merits a crown of righteousness in the world to come, but also in this present life fills us with the grace of the Holy Spirit. Moreover, it is said: "God does not give the Spirit by measure" (John 3:34-35).

"That is it, your Godliness. Acquiring the Spirit of God is the true aim of our Christian life, while prayer, fasting, almsgiving and other good works done for Christ's sake are merely means for acquiring the Spirit of God."

[...]
And this same fire-infusing grace of the Holy Spirit which is given to us all, the faithful in Christ, in the Sacrament of Holy Baptism, is sealed by the Sacrament of Chrismation on the chief parts of our body as appointed by the Holy Church, the eternal keeper of this grace.
[...]
They were washed with their sufferings and made white in the communion of the immaculate and life-giving Mysteries of the Body and Blood of the most pure and spotless Lamb - Christ - Who was slain before all ages by His own will for the salvation of the world, and Who is continually being slain and divided until now, but is never exhausted (in the Sacrament of Communion). Through the Holy Mysteries we are granted our eternal and unfailing salvation as a viaticum to eternal life, as an acceptable answer at His dread judgment and a precious substitute beyond our comprehension for that fruit of the tree of life of which the enemy of mankind, Lucifer, who fell from heaven, would have liked to deprive the human race.
I read this... it helped me a lot. Thanks for posting it. I was going to comment on it but I couldnt remember all of the parts and I knew I would butcher it.

Thanks again,

John

[Mytheodos]

The Holy Fathers
on Good Works
"Let every good work that we undertake be done for the glory of God, and then it will be for our glory also. The fulfillment of the commandments is holy and pure only when it is done with the Lord in mind, with the fear of God and with love for Him. The enemy of the human race (the devil) tries in every way to lead us away from such a disposition. He uses various earthly lures to make our hearts become attached to the things we consider good in this world, instead of that which is truly good, the love of God. The evil one attempts to defile and disfigure whatever good a man may do; into our fulfillment of the commandments he scatters the seeds of vainglory, doubt, murmuring or something of that sort, to turn our good work into something that is no longer good. A good work becomes truly good only when it is done for God, with humility and diligence. In such a state, all things prescribed by the commandments become easy for us, because our love for God removes all difficulties in keeping His commandments" (St. Ephrem the Syrian).
"Everyone who desires to be saved must not only avoid evil, but must also do good; as it says in the Psalms, 'Turn away from evil, and do good' (Ps. 33:14 - LXX). For example, if someone is prone to anger, not only must he stop getting angry, but he must also become meek. If someone is proud, not only must he not be proud, but he must also become humble. Every passion has an opposing virtue: pride - humility; miserliness - generosity; lechery - chastity; faint-heartedness - patience; wrath - meekness; hatred - love" (Abba Dorotheus).
"Not every good deed is reckoned a good work, but only that good deed which is done for God. The external aspects of the deed do not constitute its substance; God looks at the heart. We should be greatly humbled when we see that some passion attaches itself to every good work. What is most profitable is abstinence in moderation. It is better for us to be dishonored and to suffer, but let God's will be done in everything; you should not give yourself over to afflictions of your own will. That would be a brazen act of pride, and it may turn out that you will not be able to endure what you have taken upon yourself of your own will. A sin which is covered by a mask of goodness stealthily enters and harms the souls of those who do not test themselves against the Gospels. Gospel goodness requires self-renunciation, the renunciation of one's own will and mind" (Starets Nikon).:bow: :bow: :bow: