Thoughts on Orthodoxy in America

[Lotar]

Here's something that might be interesting to discuss.

We here things all the time about how Orthodoxy is growing quickly, and sometimes about not so rosey pictures about the growth of the Church. Either way we look at it, we are an insignificant minority on the American religious scene (I've heard the 1-5 million member estimates before, but I don't remember ever walking into a parish with 1,000-5,000 members).

So, how do we go from an extreme minority of the population to even a noticable minority?

I suppose the innitial reaction of most people is to seek converts, maybe pointing to the number of converts the Church is recieving at present. Nice as it may be, real growth through converts are usually localized around certain areas, usually were there is a popular priest. I would say that this growth most likely cannot be sustained, as the fad among some Protestant seminaries ends and more Protestant denominations begin anti-Orthodox polemics.

It is my belief that the best plan for sustained, and rapid, growth is not through looking without, but through looking within. This can be done by the proven method used by French Canadians in Canada and norther New England, Mormons in Utah, Albanians in Kosovo, Muslims in Lebannon, and others. That method would be by returning to the Church's teaching concerning the morality of contraception, and growing through birth rates.

Through the easily attainable TFR of approx. 7, each generation would be 3.5 times the size of the one that birthed it, leading to a population double time of about 18 years. That would be even without converts. With a positive inflow of converts, we could be doubling our presence here in this country in as little as every 10-15 years.

This method would not only sustain growth through periods with low or negative conversion rates, but would provide a more sturdy age structure for sustaining the retention in faith among our children by providing an Orthodox peer group. Instead of growing up with no or little in the way of Orthodox peers (a necessity in a culture that is geared towards assimilation), a group of a mere 10 married couples of childbearing age could provide around 5 children per year.


Just another example of how this can work is the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel. They have been able to bring their numbers up to 7% of the total population, with a population of around 25% of all school age children. This being possible in a nation with a higher birthrate and immigration growth rate than the USA.

[Dust and Ashes]

That seems to be the way we are aiming here in Tupelo. We have a 7 month old, my cousin and his wife (catechumens) have a 15 month old and a new one on the way, another couple who will enter the catechumenate soon are expecting and my wife and I will start trying again in a few months. There is a family of new catechumens with 8 children, though they may be moving to the NW soon. It gives me a lot of comfort to know that my son will have Orthodox peers.

[choirfiend]

yay, let's just have children til we outnumber the Catholics! Sounds like a great idea. Good thing nowadays nearly all children live to adulthood, unlike the past, when you had a bjillion kids b/c at least a 1/3 were likely to die. Fabulous, I love it.

Breed more Orthodox soldiers! One day, if we breed enough, we can take over the world! Breed and conquer everything worldly! Breed, I say!





Not that that reduces the gift of children to sheer numbers and preconceived (pun intended) notions about what it means to be prosperous, and what the point of the Orthodox Church is.

[Dust and Ashes]

Breed and conquer everything worldly! Breed, I say!

Do it for the Church. I like that. Wonder how it will go over with my wife. :D

[Rowan]

yay, let's just have children til we outnumber the Catholics! Sounds like a great idea. Good thing nowadays nearly all children live to adulthood, unlike the past, when you had a bjillion kids b/c at least a 1/3 were likely to die. Fabulous, I love it.

Breed more Orthodox soldiers! One day, if we breed enough, we can take over the world! Breed and conquer everything worldly! Breed, I say!





Not that that reduces the gift of children to sheer numbers and preconceived (pun intended) notions about what it means to be prosperous, and what the point of the Orthodox Church is.

LOL

Hilarious, but I seriously agree with this. True, Orthodox missions in America could be more widespread, but there's something a little too "imma baby-makin' machine uh yuhk!" about this idea. I'm not downing big families or anything, but isn't the individual allowance of birth control for some couples economy?

In addition to stronger missions, maybe better catechesis is needed in order to make sure those who grow up in the OC stay in there, perhaps?

Besides, there's no guarantee all the kids who are raised in Orthodoxy will keep practicing Orthodoxy.

[Lotar]

That seems to be the way we are aiming here in Tupelo. We have a 7 month old, my cousin and his wife (catechumens) have a 15 month old and a new one on the way, another couple who will enter the catechumenate soon are expecting and my wife and I will start trying again in a few months. There is a family of new catechumens with 8 children, though they may be moving to the NW soon. It gives me a lot of comfort to know that my son will have Orthodox peers.
Yay for babies! :)

My wife and I are hoping we will be blessed with a baby about every two years. We have about 10 families at our parish with 6+ children. It is really nice.

[Lotar]

LOL

Hilarious, but I seriously agree with this. True, Orthodox missions in America could be more widespread, but there's something a little too "imma baby-makin' machine uh yuhk!" about this idea. I'm not downing big families or anything, but isn't the individual allowance of birth control for some couples economy?


In a couple US jurisdictions, recently. A foolish move by them; allowing married couple to sin in that way.


In addition to stronger missions, maybe better catechesis is needed in order to make sure those who grow up in the OC stay in there, perhaps?

Yes, that is another important part. We must raise our children to remain in the Church as well, but that is pretty much a given, especially if we want them to be committed enough to follow the Church's teaching on contraception.

[nutroll]

I come from a family of 5 children, we were all raised in the Orthodox Church, and of the five of us, two are not even Christian anymore. One attends church on occasion. So that leaves two of us who attend church on a regular basis. I don't think that having more kids will increase church membership. In fact, I wonder if it isn't easier with less kids to spend more time with each of them instructing them properly in the faith.

[Lotar]

I come from a family of 5 children, we were all raised in the Orthodox Church, and of the five of us, two are not even Christian anymore. One attends church on occasion. So that leaves two of us who attend church on a regular basis. I don't think that having more kids will increase church membership. In fact, I wonder if it isn't easier with less kids to spend more time with each of them instructing them properly in the faith.

Not really. Having less children is not going to apprieciatively increase your chances of having the few children you do have remain in the Church. I know of big families where they have all stayed in the Church, and I know of little ones that have none of the children practicing.

It is equally important that we work to keep our children in the Church. That much is indeed true.

Look at the recent trends in the traditionalist Catholic and fullquiver Protestant movements. They have TFRs over 7 and have a higher retention rate than their peers. The bigger factors in retaining the next generation are communication of importance and example thereof by parents, and having a community of peers.

The same can be said of the Muslim communities. They have it down to a near science now. They set up schools, when there is enough of them, and homeschool when there isn't. They communicate the importance of their faith and encourage high birth rates.

[Lotar]

unlike the past, when you had a bjillion kids b/c at least a 1/3 were likely to die. Fabulous, I love it.



Sorry to break it to you, but child mortality rates did not use to be 33%

[icedtea]

It will be difficult, with a former protestant member having 7 (last I heard) and another who had 12.

I think one should tell others about their faith, how else will they find out? I almost put we, but I am not orthodox yet. I forgot!

[Lotar]

It will be difficult, with a former protestant member having 7 (last I heard) and another who had 12.

I think one should tell others about their faith, how else will they find out? I almost put we, but I am not orthodox yet. I forgot!
One should tell others. What I'm saying is that gaining converts as being the exclusive focus of growth is short sighted.

[icedtea]

I will pass on having any more as I am single, but. But, God can move in situations and can bring a revival of people finding the Church!:thumbsup:

PRAYER is the BEST strategy.

[jckstraw72]

i like your plan Lotar.

[EmperorConstantine]

I have a friend who is Russian (Pentecostal for some reason). He has about 150 cousins. His dad is one of 18 and his mom is one of 17 (or something like that) and he is one of 12. He even has a 10 year-old uncle!

In short do as the Russians do: bring child in the world. Lots of children.

[buzuxi02]

Lotar is right,
Thru marriage and procreation is the most viable option as long as its coupled with an Orthodox home.
When an individual is brought into the church thru marriage of an Orthodox that person is also brought into the culture and that culture naturally becomes the culture of the children.

[choirfiend]

Obviously you have to have kids. Convert this entire generation, and if they were all sterile, the population would be gone at the end of this generation. But having children for the sake of fitting some stereotype in your head of what Orthodoxy is and what your role as a husband/wife is can be just as evil as avoiding children. I find this entire discussion distasteful, openly judgemental (based on one's own opinion and righteous judgement,) and ridiculous to a degree that I cannot even express.

Do God's will. Let the numbers take care of themselves.

[kamikat]

Lotar, all I'm going to say about this is, I think it's great that you feel called to have a large family, but you can't impose this calling on everyone.

[Padraig]

In a couple US jurisdictions, recently. A foolish move by them; allowing married couple to sin in that way.
I would suggest caution in saying that the bishops in question allow a couple to sin. This seems a bit hasty to me.

May you bear the fruit of the Passion,
Dn Kevin

[Jacob4707]

.

[Matrona]

I would suggest caution in saying that the bishops in question allow a couple to sin. This seems a bit hasty to me.

A bit wrong, actually. Spiritual fathers give permission for contraception when it is right for the couple and their salvation for them to use it, and it is highly inappropriate to judge anyone involved, no matter what one thinks of contraception for one's self and spouse.

If God chooses to grant me children, I want to treat them as the gifts from God that they are; I don't want eight kids just so I can show them off and say "LOOK WHAT I DID TO SPREAD ORTHODOXY IN AMERICA!!!"

[Lotar]

Obviously this isn't the point of having children, and that is not what I mean by it. It is a good side effect, and there is nothing wrong with looking at it that way. It does not make them any less of a gift any more than looking at converts as furthering Orthodoxy in America. There are Saints who made that very point, that by procreating, married couples are providing more souls for the Church.

[Lotar]

Lotar, all I'm going to say about this is, I think it's great that you feel called to have a large family, but you can't impose this calling on everyone.
I am called to have as many children as God chooses to give me. I do not impose it any more than I impose the calling not to have extra-maritial sex.

[Padraig]

A bit wrong, actually. Spiritual fathers give permission for contraception when it is right for the couple and their salvation for them to use it, and it is highly inappropriate to judge anyone involved, no matter what one thinks of contraception for one's self and spouse.

If God chooses to grant me children, I want to treat them as the gifts from God that they are; I don't want eight kids just so I can show them off and say "LOOK WHAT I DID TO SPREAD ORTHODOXY IN AMERICA!!!"
:scratch:I'm not sure why there is disagreement between us here. I was affirming that, in fact, the bishops were not giving couples license to sin via contraception as an earlier poster had suggested. Your sentiments and mine are identical.

Dn Kevin

[choirfiend]

"There are Saints who made that very point, that by procreating, married couples are providing more souls for the Church. "






No, God provides more souls for world. You are the caretaker of those souls entrusted to you. Having children is not like ringing bells--it's not like every time you have one, you've just handed out a pair of wings.




The point about having lots of kids in order to have lots of Orthodox is a completely misaligned mindset. The whole, "lets conquer the world, b.c otherwise the muslims are going to take us over" undertone to this is focused on things so worldly, I can't believe it. I think I've stressed how I feel about this opinion strongly enough, and based on the posters who are giving me reps for it, I think the point has been expressed for others as well. So now I'm out.

[Lotar]

"There are Saints who made that very point, that by procreating, married couples are providing more souls for the Church. "







No, God provides more souls for world. You are the caretaker of those souls entrusted to you. Having children is not like ringing bells--it's not like every time you have one, you've just handed out a pair of wings.


And the Theotokos was just a conduit for Christ to pass through, right?






The point about having lots of kids in order to have lots of Orthodox is a completely misaligned mindset. The whole, "lets conquer the world, b.c otherwise the muslims are going to take us over" undertone to this is focused on things so worldly, I can't believe it. I think I've stressed how I feel about this opinion strongly enough, and based on the posters who are giving me reps for it, I think the point has been expressed for others as well. So now I'm out.


Where did I say anything about conquering the world, or mention Muslims, other than as examples?

I guess it is just worldly to want the Church to grow, or to want my children to have other Orthodox children their age to grow up with, and maybe some day marry.

[Dust and Ashes]

:scratch:I'm not sure why there is disagreement between us here. I was affirming that, in fact, the bishops were not giving couples license to sin via contraception as an earlier poster had suggested. Your sentiments and mine are identical.

Dn Kevin

She was saying "a bit wrong" as opposed to "a bit hasty" to take your point farther, I believe but I'll ask her to correct me if I'm wrong in that assumption.

[Xpycoctomos]

Lotar,

I think you often bring up good points on this issue. Honestly I can't question it too much. Contraception is looked down on since... forever. It is impossible to find anything positive or condoning concerning contraception in the writing of the saints. What can I say....

I guess your OP is just a bit creepy sounding. I mean, it focuses so much on numbers. Yet, is that the point?

Let me ask this, do we have a better chance and being holier if there are more ORthodox? You may very well say yes. BUt I don't agree. I think, actually it simly sets up different obstacles in place of those we have now. And regarding the Mormons in Utah. From what I understand, the Mormons in Utah are not as impressive and devout there as most of us see here in the East where they are a teeny minority. My guess is that this is due in large part to the fact that they are marginalized and are more aware of who they are. In Utah, it is easy to feel "confident" in your mormonism because everyone is around you.

THis is not to say I am against us growing in population or that I think it is better we stay small... I am only saying that this does nothing for our salvation. You can argue that avoiding BC does because we are defying God's plan.. but that's an entirly different thread having nothing to do with OP.

If we want the Church to grow, we need to pray and love others and, for those who are called, evangelize to others explicitly. And if what you say is true about BC being evil, then no worries, your wish of most Orthodox having large families will come true.

John

[Nickolai]

In a couple US jurisdictions, recently. A foolish move by them; allowing married couple to sin in that way.

If by a couple you mean all, and by US you mean entire world.

And if by sin you mean provide for the wellness of their family.

It's great to have lots of kids. But what is not great is having more kids than you can afford. The proper context of sex in marriage actually is very specific to what the couple needs. Sometimes people need the intimacy, but cannot afford to have another child.

Be careful before you make any blanket statements. And get back to us after you have a few kids. We'll see what you think about contraception then. ;)

In Christ,
Reader Nikolai

p.s. I should clarify that when I get married, I want a bunch of kids too. But I also only want as many as my wife and pay can handle, especially if I'm a priest.

[cobweb]

I only get paid $6.25/hr. My husband makes more than I do, but we are definitely working class folk.

I would quite happily have more children, but I doubt the Church would pay for them. We're barely scraping by as it is.

[Lotar]

Lotar,

I think you often bring up good points on this issue. Honestly I can't question it too much. Contraception is looked down on since... forever. It is impossible to find anything positive or condoning concerning contraception in the writing of the saints. What can I say....

I guess your OP is just a bit creepy sounding. I mean, it focuses so much on numbers. Yet, is that the point?

I really don't know what is "creepy" about it. It wasn't an argument about why people shouldn't use contraception. It was more about the benifits to the growth of the Orthodox community, but for some reason we are only allowed to speak of this if it concerns gaining converts.



Let me ask this, do we have a better chance and being holier if there are more ORthodox? You may very well say yes. BUt I don't agree. I think, actually it simly sets up different obstacles in place of those we have now. And regarding the Mormons in Utah. From what I understand, the Mormons in Utah are not as impressive and devout there as most of us see here in the East where they are a teeny minority. My guess is that this is due in large part to the fact that they are marginalized and are more aware of who they are. In Utah, it is easy to feel "confident" in your mormonism because everyone is around you.

THis is not to say I am against us growing in population or that I think it is better we stay small... I am only saying that this does nothing for our salvation. You can argue that avoiding BC does because we are defying God's plan.. but that's an entirly different thread having nothing to do with OP.


Honestly I don't think I'd be any more or less holy, but that is not really what I am concerned with.

To take your Mormon example, I would say that what you are seeing isn't that Mormons are more pious where they are minorities. In Utah, generally everyone who grows up Mormon stays Mormon, so there is a range of very pious Mormons and not so pious Mormons. Outside of Utah Mormons have a fairly high attrition rate, which is nearly high enough to cancel out the effects of their relatively high birth rates. So, generally, the Mormons you see who are pious would have still been pious in Utah, but those of their kids who would have been not so pious in Utah just end up leaving the sect altogether.

So, the benifits that I believe we would see would be community pressure to remain in the Church. Since, I personally, would rather all or most of my children and grandchildren be Orthodox, with some being not-so-good Orthodox, than have many just leave the Church.

As great as it is to have many converts join the Church, can we really pat ourselves on the back if we are losing our own children?



If we want the Church to grow, we need to pray and love others and, for those who are called, evangelize to others explicitly. And if what you say is true about BC being evil, then no worries, your wish of most Orthodox having large families will come true.

John


I pray that will be so.

[Xpycoctomos]

I pray that will be so.

And that's the point.

[Xpycoctomos]

I really don't know what is "creepy" about it. It wasn't an argument about why people shouldn't use contraception. It was more about the benifits to the growth of the Orthodox community, but for some reason we are only allowed to speak of this if it concerns gaining converts.


Re the bolded part. I know that wasn't yuor intent... and if it were (as it has been in many pther threads you have participated in) I wouldn't have gotten the "creepy" feeling from it. And look, rest assured that I do not think what you are saying truly is "creepy". I'm just saying that at first glance it may come across creepy... it is reminiscent of the Building up an Arian Nation kind of creepy. My point there waas not to say why your OP was in error... it was to explain why my (and perhaps others) initial reaction to your post may be negative.

Now, I still think the focus should be on prayer and love in Christ and then all will follow if we are seriously doing this.

But to reiterate... there is nothign (for me) that is "creepy" (even initially) about saying that contraception is wrong. I think your arguments on THAT issue are quite rock solid... and you would rightly respond that those are nto YOUR arguments but hte Church's.

John

[rusmeister]

I will pass on having any more as I am single, but. But, God can move in situations and can bring a revival of people finding the Church!:thumbsup:

PRAYER is the BEST strategy.
Agree completely.

Live the Faith and don't worry about Church growth.

A note on Russians - you wouldn't want to make hasty assumptions - Russians in Russia try very hard not to have children - one to one point five is average. If you want to p-off your in-laws try having 4 or 5. The small apartments here and life in general make having more than 3 or 4 very very difficult (I have 3 and we are considered a "mnogodetnaya sem'ya" (many-children family) with a few official benefits).
I would say that people who have not had babies should actually raise a few before judging others (not that people here are, but just as a general observation)

[rusmeister]

I generally find that almost anything written more than 100 years ago displays a significantly higher level of education and intelligence than anything written today - take my favorite, GKC, for example. Anyhoo, the reading posted here has been edited for readability
http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=34938771&postcount=5
and is worth at least 50 of our posts.

[Lotar]

Re the bolded part. I know that wasn't yuor intent... and if it were (as it has been in many pther threads you have participated in) I wouldn't have gotten the "creepy" feeling from it. And look, rest assured that I do not think what you are saying truly is "creepy". I'm just saying that at first glance it may come across creepy... it is reminiscent of the Building up an Arian Nation kind of creepy. My point there waas not to say why your OP was in error... it was to explain why my (and perhaps others) initial reaction to your post may be negative.

Now, I still think the focus should be on prayer and love in Christ and then all will follow if we are seriously doing this.

But to reiterate... there is nothign (for me) that is "creepy" (even initially) about saying that contraception is wrong. I think your arguments on THAT issue are quite rock solid... and you would rightly respond that those are nto YOUR arguments but hte Church's.

John

Here's the interesting thing about it; why is it that when some starts speaking of natalism and/or the benifits of it, people automatically think racism/fascism?

Even if it were for racist reasons (which it is not in this case), I would make the case that it is much more benine form of racism than that of the contraceptive culture. This being because natalism has no direct effect on any other culture, while pro-"family planning" types advocate cultural change in and decreasing birth rates of other cultures.

Not that I am implying anything about what you believe, just something I find a little interesting.