Modernism

[MichaelArchangelos]

Having fled the Roman Catholic Church, in part, due to modernism, I was shocked to read articles on OrthodoxInfo talking about modernism in Orthodoxy.

Some of the articles on the site talk about modernism and give examples of organs and pews in church, electric carillons instead of bells, priests abandoning traditional clergy dress, clean-shaven priests, relaxation of fasting rules, shortened services, churches being run by a lay parish council, calls for twice-married clergy and married bishops, etc.

Are these things generally common in the Orthodox Church in America ? (I've heard that the Antiochian Archdiocese of North America is pretty bad in this respect.)

[Oblio]

If a priest has to be clean shaven for his job (remember we do not have state sponsored churches here), that's economy.

Our church is run by a lay parish council (chaired by the priest), what is the problem here ?

Clergy dress ?, see beard comment.

Twice married ? Depends, as Orthodox, or heterodox ?

What is traditional clergy dress ? And is it the same as it was 500 years ago ? 1000 ? 1500 ??

[Oblio]

relaxation of fasting rules,


Is there a canon that specifies fasting rules ?

Are you talking about Greeks that consider Feta non-dairy, or Russians that consider beer water ?

[Oblio]

Are these things generally common in the Orthodox Church in America ?


No

[kamikat]

It depends on what you consider modern. For example, our parish fought tooth and nail when the new priest came in and wanted to add "and air" to the litany petitions for those who travel by land and by sea. On the other hand, our church has always had pews, mainly because the building was bought from a Protestant group. Our church is also run by the lay parish council. I believe this is common in the Orthodox Church. Oblio made several good points regarding not having state-sponsored churches. Many priests need to work to support their families. Married bishops is a non-issue. Can you site a married bishop? In my mind, this is a prime symptom of a schismatic group. The only instance I know of a married bishop is a schismatic church. Relaxation of fasting rules comes on the advice of one's priest. Do you honestly think a pregnant or nursing mother to fast a strictly as the rest of us? Do you honestly think a diabetic shouldn't follow his doctor's advice? Do you think someone who is trying to overcome anorexia to fast the same as the rest of us? Our priest should be able to relax the fasting rules as his children need it. We do not need legalism to grow in Christ. We need gentle guidance.

[Lotar]

Having fled the Roman Catholic Church, in part, due to modernism, I was shocked to read articles on OrthodoxInfo talking about modernism in Orthodoxy.

Some of the articles on the site talk about modernism and give examples of organs and pews in church, electric carillons instead of bells, priests abandoning traditional clergy dress, clean-shaven priests, relaxation of fasting rules, shortened services, churches being run by a lay parish council, calls for twice-married clergy and married bishops, etc.

Are these things generally common in the Orthodox Church in America ? (I've heard that the Antiochian Archdiocese of North America is pretty bad in this respect.)
The use of contraception is another big one.

[Lotar]

One thing that our marriage sponsors, who grew up in the Church, told us. Not to long ago the Church was just struggling to provide priests for this country, so many did not even have any sort of seminary training. There were two books written in English.

Quite simply, many Orthodox Christians built churches with organs and pews, and did other such things simply because they didn't know any better.

[Rowan]

:confused:

Isn't Orthodoxinfo a little on the ultra-conservative side to begin with?

[Greg the byzantine]

:D Lord Have Mercy.

The organ is tacky and doesn't belong, but it doesn't change our faith.

electric carrions- Umm So What.

Pews- Whoop dee doo. Did you know even the Ultra Traditional so called "Genuine Greek Orthodox Church of America" has pews in their cathedral. In the end the pews are only an obstacle, but they don't change the liturgy, if people don't allow them to.


Oh No, Shaving- The horror. Who cares. If a priest shaves does it change his ability to pray, and perform the Divine Liturgy?

About the whole Priests, and how they dress outside of church. Look up ^

The parish council. Well that's a whole nother story. Sometimes they are good, sometimes they are bad. Fortunately the coucil members are elected by the community, and as easily as they come, they can go just as easily.

Twice Married Clergy.- Never heard of it.

Married Bishops. I don't think any exist.

Ley me add a few more.

Light bulbs instead of Candles - Over my dead body, unless there is a very very good reason.

[Rowan]

Light bulbs instead of Candles - Over my dead body, unless there is a very very good reason.

Haha one of the parishes I visited has electric candles (but you can still light a real one if front of the icons and for special services though, obviously). I don't know why, but it's far from distracting and still genuinely Orthodox :D

[mushowani]

the Bible is the only manual in this walk... threrefore what does it say concerning the above mentioned issues considering that the Bible is not limited by time zones/frames/eons/eras?

[Dust and Ashes]

the Bible is the only manual in this walk... threrefore what does it say concerning the above mentioned issues considering that the Bible is not limited by time zones/frames/eons/eras?

Actually, it can say pretty much what the reader/interpreter wants it to say, depending on which proof-texts they choose to give the interpretational weight. Just look at all the "roll your own" churches out there with myriads of conflicting doctrines, all of which are "Biblical" based on the pastor's interpretation.

I hope that doesn't sound snotty, I'm tired and literary tact is the first casualty of fatigue with me. Sorry.

[Tsarina]

Having fled the Roman Catholic Church, in part, due to modernism, I was shocked to read articles on OrthodoxInfo talking about modernism in Orthodoxy.

Some of the articles on the site talk about modernism and give examples of organs and pews in church, electric carillons instead of bells, priests abandoning traditional clergy dress, clean-shaven priests, relaxation of fasting rules, shortened services, churches being run by a lay parish council, calls for twice-married clergy and married bishops, etc.

Are these things generally common in the Orthodox Church in America ? (I've heard that the Antiochian Archdiocese of North America is pretty bad in this respect.)

Sadly, in some parts of the West, modernism has crept into our Orthodox Church's. I believe that the Church will cleanse itself out, but it's probably going to take some time.

I've never seen organs, electric carillons or twice married clergy within any Church that i have attended. However, yes i have seen Priests abandoning traditional clergy dress, i have seen clean shaven Priests and sadly many Churches that are run by a lay parish council. The Church I've been recently attending has Pews, which is really awkward to me because i come from a Russian Church with no pews. To my surprise people were sitting during service! You're allowed to do that? :doh:All this modernism that i experienced was at the Antiochian Church.

[jckstraw72]

with relaxing of fasting rules he could be referring to how the Antiochian Church (or at least some dioceses) dont fast at all from Pascha till Pentecost, whereas other churches have one week of no fasting ... things like that.

as for pews, Mother Raphaela of Holy Myrrhbearers Monastery in Otego, NY wrote a nice essay where she talks about pews -- she notes that we are all a royal priesthood and are to be serving right along with the priest and she even says we have no right to be sitting. when i go to chuch at school there are no pews, just some chairs, so ppl hardly ever sit, whereas at home there are pews so ppl sit at like 4 parts throughout the Liturgy. its a distraction with the up and down, and it changes the mood i think, and ive had a few others make the same comment to me. its a lazier mood, and not indicative of the asceticism that the Church gives us, methinks. also, i attended a Pre-Sanctified at a church with pews this Lent, and there were no prostrations -- probably bc there couldnt be! it didnt feel like a Pre-Sanctified to me at all.

[EmperorConstantine]

Some of the articles on the site talk about modernism and give examples of organs and pews in church, electric carillons instead of bells, priests abandoning traditional clergy dress, clean-shaven priests, relaxation of fasting rules, shortened services, churches being run by a lay parish council, calls for twice-married clergy and married bishops, etc.
Pews I despise.

Organs are overrated.

Bells sound real cool! :thumbsup:

Define traditional clergy dress.

If a priest wishes to shave, let him do so.

I thought beer was water! (part German, part Irish, not legal age)

DL of St. John Chrysostom has been around since the 4th century. The only time that I can think of "shortening" is if there is no deacon which means a litany or two are omitted.

Lay people are the Church. We just need a lot of guidance.

If a bishop allows a twice married priest, let him be twice married.

If a bishop was married and his wife died, he can become a bishop.

[buzuxi02]

Various jurisdictions are plagued by various elements of modernism. Some unfortunately have become permanent fixtures such as organs in the GOA in use for about 80 years now.

[Dust and Ashes]

with relaxing of fasting rules he could be referring to how the Antiochian Church (or at least some dioceses) dont fast at all from Pascha till Pentecost, whereas other churches have one week of no fasting ... things like that.

:eek:

How widespread is that in the Antiochian Church? I never realized since our priests are very traditional but that may have something to do with our parish being one of the former Evangelical Orthodox parishes. As far as fasting, Father encourages (but doesn't require) Wed/Fri fasting during Bright week, though I guess that, too, could be seen as a symptom of modernism.

In a recent podcast, Fr. Patrick Reardon was saying that he's surprised at the "top-drawer" quality of the priests coming out of American seminaries. He made this statement in reference to some theological theories and methods that are being introduced there that have, in the last 200 years or so, ruined many Protestant denominations with modernism.

[Oblio]

To my surprise people were sitting during service! You're allowed to do that?


Y'all do know what Kathisma means ? :)


I do howvever find the up..down..up..down...up in some churches (e.g. GOA, with pews) to be distracting during the Liturgy.

[Oblio]

I'm still confused as how lay PCs are 'moderism'. One doesn't need, or necessarily want, clergy worrying about the secular points of running a parish. He is there IMO as a safety valve and to provide guidance in issues that require such.

[Padraig]

I think we need to be careful about categorizing "clean-shaven" priests as an example of modernism, and therefore somehow "un"Orthodox. There are no canons to my knowledge which state that a priest must have long hair and beard. Likewise, only 2 canons really address priestly attire.

Canon 27 of the Quintsext Council:None of those who are in the catalogue of the clergy shall wear clothes unsuited to them, either while still living in town or when on a journey: but they shall wear such clothes as are assigned to those who belong to the clergy. And if any one shall violate this canon, he shall be cut off for one week.This only addresses clothing that is "unsuited" to them. Note that it does not relate what is appropriate or inappropriate. The bishop of each diocese will determine this. If a bishop permits his priests to wear "clerics" instead of cassocks, than that is his prerogative. Also, if the bishop allows his priests to be clean-shaven, and short-haired, that is also his call. This is not modernism, but rather keeping in line with the canonical tradition of the Church.

Canon 16 of the Seventh Ecumenical Council:All buffoonery and decking of the body ill becomes the priestly rank. Therefore those bishops and clerics who array themselves in gay and showy clothing ought to correct themselves, and if they do not amend they ought to be subjected to punishment. So likewise they who anoint themselves with perfumes. When the root of bitterness sprang up, there was poured into the Catholic Church the pollution of the heresy of the traducers of the Christians. And such as were defiled by it, not only detested the pictured images, but also set at naught all decorum, being exceedingly mad against those who lived gravely and religiously; so that in them was fulfilled that which is written, “The service of God is abominable to the sinner.” If therefore, any are found deriding those who are clad in poor and grave raiment, let them be corrected by punishment. For from early times every man in holy orders wore modest and grave clothing; and verily whatever is worn, not so much because of necessity, as for the sake of outward show, savours of dandyism, as says Basil the Great. Nor did anyone array himself in raiment embroidered with silk, nor put many coloured ornaments on the border of his garments; for they had heard from the lips of God that “They that wear soft clothing are in kings’ houses.”Here again, we see that particular dress is not identified, only that it should be modest and grave clothing. "Clerics" and cassocks both fall into this category. Neither is particularly flashy. These are the requirements for priestly appearance.

I fear that we get so caught up into what Orthodoxy should look like that we forget that the life of the Church is dynamic, and finds expression in whatever time and place she finds herself in. St Patriarch Tikhon, for example, while in the States encouraged his clergy to dress in a way more appropriate to the American scene so that they would be more easily approachable by Americans. Shall we accuse this blessed Saint of being a "modernist?" Certainly not, and I know that none of us would. I use this example to illustrate that the examples and real dangers of "modernism" have to be found elsewhere.

Some will point to Liturgical changes as a sign of modernism. But here too we must be cautious. Liturgical changes are part of the dynamic nature of the Church. There have been changes to the Liturgy since the Liturgy of St John Chrysostom was codified. There are particular changes that the Russians made to the Greek original (compare the Epiclesis in the Russian tradition and the Greek tradition). Also, the Cherubic Hymn was added in the 9th century, some 300 years after the Liturgy was codified. There is also an interpolation in the Epiclesis from Chrysostom's Liturgy into St Basil's. There are numerous other examples. If we confine Orthodoxy to a particular expression, we do a great disservice to the Church, and the people she must minister to.

Modernism preaches a different Gospel than we have received from the Apostles. It preaches a different Christ, a Christ that we do not recognize. But we must be cautious of pointing to priestly dress, and even Liturgical changes as signs of this lest we become guilty of becoming like the pharisees. If you encounter something that makes you wonder, bring it up with your priest, or better yet, ask permission to contact your bishop as he is ultimately responsible for what goes on in his diocese, and will generally be glad to explain why things are the way they are. He will likely have more experience with the canonical and liturgical tradition of our Church than many of us, and allows "changes" from an informed perspective. Hope this helps.

May you bear the fruit of the Passion,
Dn Kevin

[eoe]

Bufoonery And Dandyism!!!!! Rampant I Tell You!

[ufonium2]

I've got two words for the Antiochian/GOA bashers:

New Skete

The OCA would do well to worry about that plank before measuring another jursidiction's beards.

[Guineverelyndy]

Having fled the Roman Catholic Church, in part, due to modernism, I was shocked to read articles on OrthodoxInfo talking about modernism in Orthodoxy.

Some of the articles on the site talk about modernism and give examples of organs and pews in church, electric carillons instead of bells, priests abandoning traditional clergy dress, clean-shaven priests, relaxation of fasting rules, shortened services, churches being run by a lay parish council, calls for twice-married clergy and married bishops, etc.

Are these things generally common in the Orthodox Church in America ? (I've heard that the Antiochian Archdiocese of North America is pretty bad in this respect.)
Please tell me you're not serious....

[Padraig]

Bufoonery And Dandyism!!!!! Rampant I Tell You!
I must admit a giggle at the Bufoonery myself.^_^

Dn Kevin

[Padraig]

I've got two words for the Antiochian/GOA bashers:

New Skete

The OCA would do well to worry about that plank before measuring another jursidiction's beards.
You are absolutely correct. Speaking as an OCA deacon, and friend to Antiochian and Greek clergy, I would not presume to accuse them of any sort of "modernism," nor would any of the OCA clergy with whom I am acquainted.

May you bear the fruit of the Passion,
Dn Kevin

[Oblio]

I do howvever find the up..down..up..down...up in some churches (e.g. GOA, with pews) to be distracting during the Liturgy.

Point of clarification: I don't see this as modernism (nor was it my intent to bash if it were perceived as so) , I just personally prefer a pewless environment and find it awkward to make the sign of the Cross while seated, especially in crowded pews.

[JustinHesychast]

New Skete is certainly... interesting...

[kamikat]

The honest truth is this, you won't see folk masses, you won't find priests singing their favorite CCM song for the homily, you won't find liturgical dancing or other stange things added to the Liturgy. You won't find orginized groups pushing for female priests, gay priests or gay marriage. Sure, you might find a shortening of the Liturgy by eliminating a litany or two (did I tell y'all about my 45minute Christmas liturgy?), but it's all just repeats, anyway. The epliclesis is still there and hasn't changed. The Liturgy ( and the Church in general) has evolved and changed over the centuries, but the basic beliefs have not changed. That is the biggest difference between "modernism" in the RC and "modernism" in the EOC. The Catholic church changed the meaning of the sacrifice from "given up for many" to "given up for all mankind". The Catholic church was greatly influenced by Pierre Teilhard de Chardin, to a more humanistic approach. We, in the East, have had no such influence. The changes that you mention in the OP have to do with cosmetic change. Changing from real bells to something electronic is cosmetic. Whether the priest wears a cassock everyday to wearing black pants and shirt and a Catholic style collar is cosmetic. Our beliefs remain the same.

[Oblio]

Heaven forbid that a Liturgy (or more likely Matins/Orthros) is shortened or expedited a bit (within allowable bounds) so that those with long commutes and jobs can attend. e.g. this AM as most Thursday Liturgies we only read the canon beginning at 6 AM. IMO, this is economy exercised in a region where it is not a 5 min walk or drive to church, and where one must take time off because the government and employers do not recognize Christian worship.

[Knowledge3]

My beliefs in Christianity go back to the patristic age.

[BabyLutheran]

glass in the windows, air conditioning, heat (except for fire), instant coffee and nondairy creamer are also modern and should be banned from all Orthodox churches. As should any icons that are reproductions and were made using a printing press. Bibles should all be handcopied as well.

I hate this modern vs old fashioned junk. What year is the cutoff?

I guess we should all be chanting in Aramaic as well???

[Knowledge3]

Are these things generally common in the Orthodox Church in America ? (I've heard that the Antiochian Archdiocese of North America is pretty bad in this respect.)

My church is Antiochian and Western Rite. Everything I see is correct worship and Orthodox. I have not seen anything that would indicate modernism. We have pews but they do not interfere with worship in anyway. All the priests are invested in the proper attire and I have not seen a trace of modernism. The liturgical worship I see is Orthodox.

:thumbsup:

[ThePilgrim]

While it is certainly good to be concerned for the Tradition of the faith and for maintaining the Apostolic doctrine that we have received, some of this is a little silly.

The canons of the Church call for clergy to wear appropriate dress. They do not specify what that is specifically, and Orthodox clerical dress and vestments have always varied from time to time and place to place. It is the bishops who determine what is appropriate dress for their clergy, and the clergy must be obedient to their bishop.

Is wearing a clerical collar un-Orthodox? No, not if we look to the witness of the saints. Sts Tikhon, Raphael, and others all wore clerical collars when traveling in the United States and had their clergy do the same. Their clergy, as well as any other clergy, were right to obedient to their bishop.

Clerical collars are not heretical or modernist, if that is what the bishops decide is best for the clergy in their diocese.

What is un-Orthodox is for laymen to be accusing the bishops of the Church, the shepherds of the flock of Christ, of modernist heresy for decisions that are within their perogatives as bishops. Nor is that traditional. Remember that we will be judged by our words, as Christ warns us, and consider that when you make such accusations, please.


Labeling clerical collars as modernism betrays a surface level knowledge of Orthodox history and tradition.

Please, forgive me if I have offended any with the tone of this post. Forgive me, a sinner, who often speaks out of place, and pray for me.

In the joy of our risen Lord, and in the joy of the healing of old wounds between ROCOR and the MP,
John

[Tsarina]

Pews I despise.

Bells sound real cool! :thumbsup:

Define traditional clergy dress.

Pews I despise as well. I just want to have a gigantic bonfire and throw all the pews in there.

Yes, bells are really nice! I miss the sound of the bells before DL in the Russian Church I was attending.

Define traditional clergy dress? ... Cassock! not collars and suits.

Y'all do know what Kathisma means ?


I do howvever find the up..down..up..down...up in some churches (e.g. GOA, with pews) to be distracting during the Liturgy.

Up and down is really annoying and distracting, as you say. That's why i want a pew bonfire, lols.

[Michael the Iconographer]

Having fled the Roman Catholic Church, in part, due to modernism, I was shocked to read articles on OrthodoxInfo talking about modernism in Orthodoxy.

Some of the articles on the site talk about modernism and give examples of organs and pews in church, electric carillons instead of bells, priests abandoning traditional clergy dress, clean-shaven priests, relaxation of fasting rules, shortened services, churches being run by a lay parish council, calls for twice-married clergy and married bishops, etc.

Are these things generally common in the Orthodox Church in America ? (I've heard that the Antiochian Archdiocese of North America is pretty bad in this respect.)
You will have a very hard time finding a twice married clergy in the Orthodox Church. The OCA would not allow me to attend seminary because my then wife had previously been married. The Carpatho-Russians would have let me (and thank God I did not decide to attend), but more as an act of kindness toward the priest who chrismated me who was very close friends with the ACROD priest who was the chancellor of the seminary.

[Nickolai]

The twice-married Priest thing was brought up at the 1923 "pan-Orthodox" council in Constantinople. Patriarch Meletios Metaksakis was a very interesting man to say the least, and he supported the idea.

[EmperorConstantine]

Pews I despise as well. I just want to have a gigantic bonfire and throw all the pews in there.

Yes, bells are really nice! I miss the sound of the bells before DL in the Russian Church I was attending.

Define traditional clergy dress? ... Cassock! not collars and suits.
[thick Russian accent]

Suits!? Collars!? Is Outrage!

[/thick Russian accent]

Unless you were a clergy person visiting in the days of the USSR when wearing of a cassock outside of the church was banned.

[choirfiend]

I would like to echo ThePilgrim. What he said is important enough to be written again:

"What is un-Orthodox is for laymen to be accusing the bishops of the Church, the shepherds of the flock of Christ, of modernist heresy for decisions that are within their perogatives as bishops. Nor is that traditional. Remember that we will be judged by our words, as Christ warns us, and consider that when you make such accusations, please."


Prayer and Worship, Belief and Practice.....they are intertwined, for certain. But beware of assigning ORTHODOXY! to clothing, hairstyles, languages, architecture, etc. You can lose the importance of them if you focus on them, b/c you can forget the Person all of those things, in all of their various appearances, are supposed to direct us to. Christ. Nothing else matters.

[SeraphimSarov]

These controversies are already raging at my parish. It's disheartening to see it here, too.

[OrthoCanuck]

I hate this modern vs old fashioned junk. What year is the cutoff?

:amen:


I guess every church needs something to complain about.:sigh:


Peace.

[Michael the Iconographer]

While it is certainly good to be concerned for the Tradition of the faith and for maintaining the Apostolic doctrine that we have received, some of this is a little silly.

The canons of the Church call for clergy to wear appropriate dress. They do not specify what that is specifically, and Orthodox clerical dress and vestments have always varied from time to time and place to place. It is the bishops who determine what is appropriate dress for their clergy, and the clergy must be obedient to their bishop.

Is wearing a clerical collar un-Orthodox? No, not if we look to the witness of the saints. Sts Tikhon, Raphael, and others all wore clerical collars when traveling in the United States and had their clergy do the same. Their clergy, as well as any other clergy, were right to obedient to their bishop.

Clerical collars are not heretical or modernist, if that is what the bishops decide is best for the clergy in their diocese.

What is un-Orthodox is for laymen to be accusing the bishops of the Church, the shepherds of the flock of Christ, of modernist heresy for decisions that are within their perogatives as bishops. Nor is that traditional. Remember that we will be judged by our words, as Christ warns us, and consider that when you make such accusations, please.


Labeling clerical collars as modernism betrays a surface level knowledge of Orthodox history and tradition.

Please, forgive me if I have offended any with the tone of this post. Forgive me, a sinner, who often speaks out of place, and pray for me.

In the joy of our risen Lord, and in the joy of the healing of old wounds between ROCOR and the MP,
John
Are you suggesting there is a canon-polizei out there and the actions of said people might be a little less than flexible and quite rigid? So it really is ok for me to write icons in acryllic gouache and I am not doomed for all eternity for it? And it is ok that my priest, who is a model priest, was ordained before the age of 27?

I think you might have a good point!

[Greg the byzantine]

These controversies are already raging at my parish. It's disheartening to see it here, too.

Honestly, it is only controversial if we make it so.


I don't know when clothing, body hair, and furniture became an important factor in our slavation.

[SeraphimSarov]

I think people worry that Tradition will go too if people start disregarding traditions.

I'm not sure how to answer that, actually.

[Greg the byzantine]

I think people worry that Tradition will go too if people start disregarding traditions.

I'm not sure how to answer that, actually.

I know where they are coming from, believe me I do. Yet there remains the question who's tradition?

Let me give you an example. I go to a GOA, and there are people from all areas of Greece and Cyprus who attend. Every part of Greece has different traditions. To one person, a tradition from one part of Greece can be totally different and can seem like a total break from "tradition" for them. However for the people who used to practice that custom, the "tradition" is very much intact for them.

Here's a funny example. The Cypriot women (my family members included there) are very put off by the fact that the Greek women put sugar on their Koliva. To them it does not makes sense because they never made koliva with sugar in Cyprus. It is a break with tradition. In fact many people like the sugar, and it's symbolism makes it twice as sweet. Their tradition of koliva without sugar may very well die out. Sure they may even be afraid of losing more of ther "traditions" and customs, because others are more appealing. However these are only cultural things, and in no way do they change the faith.

Almost every so called "controversial topic" in this thread, is really a cultural tradition, whether people recognize it or not. Matters of dress, personal grooming, furniture, posture etc are all dictated by culture.

[SeraphimSarov]

I dunno... I go to an Antiochian parish composed almost entirely of converts, so we may be talking about two different things. The uproar over my parish is the possibility of Protestant influence, which is a sore subject considering how many people abandoned Baptist churches and the like for Orthodoxy.

[Matrona]

I've got two words for the Antiochian/GOA bashers:

New Skete

The OCA would do well to worry about that plank before measuring another jursidiction's beards.

:amen:

I mean, not to get too much into the schadenfreude, but New Skete is pretty well out there... I've heard people actually refer to Antiochians as "the Protestants"...

[EmperorConstantine]

The difference between Tradition and tradition.

Tradition: chant, sacraments, Bible, icons etc.

tradition: air conditioner (or in some areas, a necessity)

[SeraphimSarov]

I think most people know that, but where is the line between Tradition and tradition? From my limited understanding, it looks rather gray and fuzzy....

[Oblio]

I don't know when clothing, body hair, and furniture became an important factor in our slavation.

Intentional or not, that's one of the better Freudian slips I've seen in a long time.

:D

[Greg the byzantine]

Intentional or not, that's one of the better Freudian slips I've seen in a long time.

:D

^_^ Well we are the servants of God. Thanks for pointing that out, I didn't even notice.

[SeraphimSarov]

Intentional or not, that's one of the better Freudian slips I've seen in a long time.

:D
Priceless! :)

[Matrona]

Greg the byzantine[/B] http://www3.christianforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=34888513#post34888513)
I don't know when clothing, body hair, and furniture became an important factor in our slavation.


Intentional or not, that's one of the better Freudian slips I've seen in a long time.

:D

^_^

A little Russian nun came up to me yesterday after the Leavetaking liturgy and said, "Are you Russian?" I shook my head, and she said, "But you have Russian faaaace!!"

[Tsarina]

[thick Russian accent]

Suits!? Collars!? Is Outrage!

[/thick Russian accent]

Unless you were a clergy person visiting in the days of the USSR when wearing of a cassock outside of the church was banned.

LoL. Yes, definatley outrage!

[repentant]

Quite simply, many Orthodox Christians built churches with organs and pews, and did other such things simply because they didn't know any better.

Nahh, they knew better...

Every GOARCH I have seen in the US, minus the Monastery's have pew's..Monastery's have the psalty chairs (I don't know what they are called). But when I go to Church, I try to stand in the back so I don't have a pew in front of me. But of course, lo and behold, one of the usher's (Parish council member's) come and makes me move because of the Great Entrance procession. I like to do the prostrations when it is called for, with pew's you can't. And that is another thing that get's me, the whole "Let's process around the whole Church for the Great Entrance" thing. What is that about?

[repentant]

On a good note..

Isn't it nice to know that we are so unified in FAITH that all we have to grumble about is silly things like this?

[Ioan cel Nou]

Well I would hate to have pews (we don't) and I'd prefer it if our priest didn't wear a clerical collar (he doesn't), but I don't really care much about the rest of the things raised (those that I know to exist - twice married clergy would be a worry but seems unlikely to say the least). For me, not having pews is merely practical (how do you manage with pews?) and I've always despised dog collars and would prefer to be able to tell an Orthodox priest apart from an Anglican or RC one easily, but that's just personal preference.

Some people, unfortunately seem to take a rather un-Orthodox attitude to all the little peripheral things and seem to almost turn them into Judaising laws. In any case, for me, the only thing I can see that I would call 'modernism' at our church is the 'modernism' of being allowed to stand on the same side as my wife an ddaughter without being harrangued by a babuşca. That's a 'mordernism' I heartily approve of.

James

P.S.
You write icons in acrylic, Michael? That's interesting. How do they look? Much different? I've never really understood why people think the material of an icon is important (in Romania there's a tradition of writing them on glass which I once was told was 'wrong' - probably rampant modernism eh?;) - which obviously isn't done in egg tempera). I would have quite liked to learn iconography (I have no illusions that I would actually be any good - maybe with the help of God, who knows?) but it's the materials used and the usual attitude to them that succeeded in putting me off. I'd be very interested to hear your thoughts.

[Prawnik]

glass in the windows, air conditioning, heat (except for fire), instant coffee and nondairy creamer are also modern and should be banned from all Orthodox churches. As should any icons that are reproductions and were made using a printing press. Bibles should all be handcopied as well.

I hate this modern vs old fashioned junk. What year is the cutoff?

I guess we should all be chanting in Aramaic as well???
I am with you on the instant coffee, dog.

Personally, I think the fires would be cool, too, but that might run astray of local codes and insurance policies and all manner of ungodliness. We'll ignore those, too.

On a slightly more serious note, I am not crazy about pews or organs or whatever, either, but I don't think their presence denied the Real Presence.

[Oblio]

Monastery's have the psalty chairs (I don't know what they are called).


The monasteries on Athos are full of those chairs. Not that I mind them, they generally not placed in rows like pews and are handy when well into a real 'all night' Vigil.

[Dust and Ashes]

A question about twice-married clergy. What if a relatively young priest with young children loses his wife and meets someone he wants to marry? Can he leave the priesthood and marry without suffering punishment or how would that work?

[Emmanuel-A]

Are you suggesting there is a canon-polizei out there


A canon-polizei ?

That sounds good. I'd like to see what their uniforms look like, and how much do they fine for, let's say, kneeling on a sunday or shaking hands with an heterodox.

[Michael the Iconographer]

A canon-polizei ?

That sounds good. I'd like to see what their uniforms look like, and how much do they fine for, let's say, kneeling on a sunday or shaking hands with an heterodox.
Considering polizei are German, and my ideas of what a German Orthodox might look like are pretty scary, I am sure the canon-polizei would not be very much fun to mess with! :D

[Khaleas]

A question about twice-married clergy. What if a relatively young priest with young children loses his wife and meets someone he wants to marry? Can he leave the priesthood and marry without suffering punishment or how would that work?
I believe there is one case in the Antiochian church where the priest was allowed by the Bishop to remarry after losing his wife very early. Supposedly it was a hugeeeeeeeeeeeeeee deal then (there's even a book) but now it's fairly forgotten.
I've heard of a few deacons being granted this mainly because their wives have died extremely early (like early 20s) or in the cases of where they have been married and divorced before becoming Orthodox. In MP these requests are made by the parish council & priest, through the bishop all the way to the patriarch.

[EmperorConstantine]

On a good note..

Isn't it nice to know that we are so unified in FAITH that all we have to grumble about is silly things like this?
That's a good thing.




...Considering its coming from a pew-user! :mad:

[Matrona]

A question about twice-married clergy. What if a relatively young priest with young children loses his wife and meets someone he wants to marry? Can he leave the priesthood and marry without suffering punishment or how would that work?

He could always leave the priesthood and re-marry; there's no punishment for that.

What would be quite unusual is if he were allowed to re-marry as well as remain a priest. Normally this isn't allowed; with young children involved, however, there are cases where it has been permitted.

[Matrona]

I believe there is one case in the Antiochian church where the priest was allowed by the Bishop to remarry after losing his wife very early. Supposedly it was a hugeeeeeeeeeeeeeee deal then (there's even a book) but now it's fairly forgotten.
I've heard of a few deacons being granted this mainly because their wives have died extremely early (like early 20s) or in the cases of where they have been married and divorced before becoming Orthodox. In MP these requests are made by the parish council & priest, through the bishop all the way to the patriarch.

It's the same in Antioch; with the Antiochian priest the case was taken all the way to Damascus, to the patriarch, and he approved of allowing him to remarry while a priest.

The priest in question did write a book about it, but I can't for the life of me remember what it was called. :doh:

[nutroll]

The priest in question was the priest at my church when I was a kid. His name is Fr. Joseph Allen, and the book he wrote was called Widowed Priest which my dad edited. It was very controversial, as evidenced by the fact that people still talk about it, although the Metropolitan's decision was not without precedent. Fr. Joseph had said that he would leave the priesthood if that was what the Metropolitan wanted him to do, but the Metropolitan decided that it would be better that he remain a priest. He continues to do a lot of work for the growth of the Archdiocese, including administrating the St. Stephen's Program, and the Doctor of Ministry Program. I don't think that remarriage of clergy should ever be the norm, but I also think that as a matter of Economia, it should be allowed when it can serve the greater good of the Church. Just my two cents.

[Rowan]

Isn't it nice to know that we are so unified in FAITH that all we have to grumble about is silly things like this?

LOL That's true. If we're gonna squabble about something, it could at least be "pews vs. no pews" rather than like...baptism or something :)

[SeraphimSarov]

But there is no question concerning this!

No pews! Period!! :P

[authiodionitist]

No pews but on the sides!

[Matrona]

The priest in question was the priest at my church when I was a kid. His name is Fr. Joseph Allen, and the book he wrote was called Widowed Priest which my dad edited. It was very controversial, as evidenced by the fact that people still talk about it, although the Metropolitan's decision was not without precedent.

Thanks for that. I already sent in a request to my library. :)

[kamikat]

Thanks for that. I already sent in a request to my library. :)

Sounds very interesting! I just ordered it from Light and Life.

[NyssaTheHobbit]

I think we need to be careful about categorizing "clean-shaven" priests as an example of modernism, and therefore somehow "un"Orthodox. There are no canons to my knowledge which state that a priest must have long hair and beard. Likewise, only 2 canons really address priestly attire.

Canon 27 of the Quintsext Council:This only addresses clothing that is "unsuited" to them. Note that it does not relate what is appropriate or inappropriate. The bishop of each diocese will determine this. If a bishop permits his priests to wear "clerics" instead of cassocks, than that is his prerogative. Also, if the bishop allows his priests to be clean-shaven, and short-haired, that is also his call. This is not modernism, but rather keeping in line with the canonical tradition of the Church.

Canon 16 of the Seventh Ecumenical Council:Here again, we see that particular dress is not identified, only that it should be modest and grave clothing. "Clerics" and cassocks both fall into this category. Neither is particularly flashy. These are the requirements for priestly appearance.

I fear that we get so caught up into what Orthodoxy should look like that we forget that the life of the Church is dynamic, and finds expression in whatever time and place she finds herself in. St Patriarch Tikhon, for example, while in the States encouraged his clergy to dress in a way more appropriate to the American scene so that they would be more easily approachable by Americans. Shall we accuse this blessed Saint of being a "modernist?" Certainly not, and I know that none of us would. I use this example to illustrate that the examples and real dangers of "modernism" have to be found elsewhere.

Some will point to Liturgical changes as a sign of modernism. But here too we must be cautious. Liturgical changes are part of the dynamic nature of the Church. There have been changes to the Liturgy since the Liturgy of St John Chrysostom was codified. There are particular changes that the Russians made to the Greek original (compare the Epiclesis in the Russian tradition and the Greek tradition). Also, the Cherubic Hymn was added in the 9th century, some 300 years after the Liturgy was codified. There is also an interpolation in the Epiclesis from Chrysostom's Liturgy into St Basil's. There are numerous other examples. If we confine Orthodoxy to a particular expression, we do a great disservice to the Church, and the people she must minister to.

Modernism preaches a different Gospel than we have received from the Apostles. It preaches a different Christ, a Christ that we do not recognize. But we must be cautious of pointing to priestly dress, and even Liturgical changes as signs of this lest we become guilty of becoming like the pharisees. If you encounter something that makes you wonder, bring it up with your priest, or better yet, ask permission to contact your bishop as he is ultimately responsible for what goes on in his diocese, and will generally be glad to explain why things are the way they are. He will likely have more experience with the canonical and liturgical tradition of our Church than many of us, and allows "changes" from an informed perspective. Hope this helps.

May you bear the fruit of the Passion,
Dn Kevin

Doh! I wanted to rep Padraig, but couldn't find a rep button.

He could always leave the priesthood and re-marry; there's no punishment for that.

What would be quite unusual is if he were allowed to re-marry as well as remain a priest. Normally this isn't allowed; with young children involved, however, there are cases where it has been permitted.

I'm glad to hear it. I've been wondering for some time about what happens to the poor priest who loses his 20-something wife to disease or an accident, then has to spend the next 80 years alone.

[MariaRegina]

The priest in question was the priest at my church when I was a kid. His name is Fr. Joseph Allen, and the book he wrote was called Widowed Priest which my dad edited. It was very controversial, as evidenced by the fact that people still talk about it, although the Metropolitan's decision was not without precedent. Fr. Joseph had said that he would leave the priesthood if that was what the Metropolitan wanted him to do, but the Metropolitan decided that it would be better that he remain a priest. He continues to do a lot of work for the growth of the Archdiocese, including administrating the St. Stephen's Program, and the Doctor of Ministry Program. I don't think that remarriage of clergy should ever be the norm, but I also think that as a matter of Economia, it should be allowed when it can serve the greater good of the Church. Just my two cents.

I agree. :)

[The Virginian]

Having fled the Roman Catholic Church, in part, due to modernism, I was shocked to read articles on OrthodoxInfo talking about modernism in Orthodoxy.

Some of the articles on the site talk about modernism and give examples of organs and pews in church, electric carillons instead of bells, priests abandoning traditional clergy dress, clean-shaven priests, relaxation of fasting rules, shortened services, churches being run by a lay parish council, calls for twice-married clergy and married bishops, etc.

Are these things generally common in the Orthodox Church in America ? (I've heard that the Antiochian Archdiocese of North America is pretty bad in this respect.)
Here's a thought ot ponder, having read the posts (some fine ones ) in this thread: An arch-priest once said in an Orthodox seminar that the Early Christians in the Apostolic Era turned the Roman Empire up-side down by using what was acceptable in their culture, and rejecting whatever had the appearance of sin. If that is how we're to turn our own times on it's collective head, how can we accomplish this when there are those who say that the things of our own culture are not within the "Traditions of the Orthodox Church !
From the argument presented by those who want to follow the dictates of whatever "old country" the Faith of their jurisdiction came from, it seems that we're doomed to having the Faith presented forever as an "ethnic country club" .If the Holy Word of God says that the Word of God is "...alive and active, and sharper than a two-edged sword...", how then can our Holy Faith be anything but the same as the Word of God which is our very life breath, and soul. I would hazard to say that the faith we practice as seen by God, is not measured in the crispness of our vestments, but ; horror of horrors, the attitude of our hearts. To mimic an old Protestant saying, "...give me the heart of the Apostles. If it's good enough for them, it's good enough for me..."
It seems to me that this continual argument over beards, organs, pews, candles, chimes, and etc., is coming close to that for which Jesus rebuked the Pharisees, "...I require....."

It's the :bow: LORD !

[Anatole]

I also agree with nutroll.
As far as pews go, in our Antiochian OC we have chairs, about 200 of them, and even though we stand during most of the DL, I like being able to lean forward against the back of a chair. I have a bad back and this helps relieve the pain during the service.
There is a mission church, also Antiochian, just 7 miles from our house, and their priest was removed for personal reasons. While he was priest, not many people, including us, wanted to go to this mission because there were no pews or chairs. That may seem petty, but sitting on the floor during the sermon is impossible for my husband and I because of our backs. Now that they have a new priest and they have chairs, the church has many new catechumens. Just in the past 5 months their attendance has almost doubled. A lot of their growth has to do with not only an amazing new priest, but there's chairs to lean against and sit in during the sermon. I feel if having a place to sit helps bring that much growth into our faith, it must be a good thing!!!

[repentant]

The monasteries on Athos are full of those chairs. Not that I mind them, they generally not placed in rows like pews and are handy when well into a real 'all night' Vigil.

Yea they are lined up against the walls..nothing in front of you. They are more for standing in, then sitting in, allthough you can. But I tell you what, when you stand in one, and put your elbows on the sides, it makes it alot easier to stand for the few hours..

[repentant]

That's a good thing.




...Considering its coming from a pew-user! :mad:



Hey now..I don't like them, I am forced to use them..;)

[xristos.anesti]

Give me Orthodox Churches with pews or without pews, with organs or without organs and Orthodox priests with clerical collars or without clerical collars, with beards or without beards....

As long as the right word of God is taught for the glory of God and salvation of souls.

[Oblio]

Yea they are lined up against the walls..nothing in front of you. They are more for standing in, then sitting in, allthough you can. But I tell you what, when you stand in one, and put your elbows on the sides, it makes it alot easier to stand for the few hours..

At M. Vatopaedi, there is actually a cluster of them in back, on either side. If you are in one on the walls, quite likely there will be one in front of you. I'm sure this is because of the popularity and number of visitors, the others I have visited (Iveron, St. Andrew Skete (chapel in basement)) are as you describe.

[choirfiend]

"I've never really understood why people think the material of an icon is important (in Romania there's a tradition of writing them on glass which I once was told was 'wrong' - probably rampant modernism eh?;) - which obviously isn't done in egg tempera)."The reason icons are not to be done on glass (outside of Romania, where icons on glass, in frames, is a tradition) is because they are not supposed to be created on anything that is easily destroyable. Glass can have rocks thrown through it. It's why Orthodox Churches have never traditionally had stained glass windows. It's a matter of protection of the holy image, not mere random tradition. So yes, icons should not be written on glass. Unless you're Romanian. Then it's fine:)




A question about twice-married clergy. What if a relatively young priest with young children loses his wife and meets someone he wants to marry? Can he leave the priesthood and marry without suffering punishment or how would that work?
I know two ppl to whom that occurred. One priest lost his wife to cancer when their two boys were young. He raised them alone--and unfortunately, died roughly 12 years ago. His sons, both grown, are fine, and one is a priest as well.

Another priest I know had his (unstable?) wife desert him and their children when they were quite young. He was granted church acceptance of a divorce in absentia, and also raised the kids on his own. Then, rather abruptly, once the kids were grown like 15 years later, he made the announcement that he was leaving the priesthood in order to marry. There wasn't any punishment, but neither was he allowed to remain as a priest.

[repentant]

At M. Vatopaedi, there is actually a cluster of them in back, on either side. If you are in one on the walls, quite likely there will be one in front of you. I'm sure this is because of the popularity and number of visitors, the others I have visited (Iveron, St. Andrew Skete (chapel in basement)) are as you describe.

Ahh, so they have pews of them...what are they called anyway? And in case people haev no clue what we are talking about, here is a pic...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v191/cantstopmycrossova/chairs.jpg

[MariaRegina]

Ahh, so they have pews of them...what are they called anyway? And in case people haev no clue what we are talking about, here is a pic...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v191/cantstopmycrossova/chairs.jpg

These types of STALLS are also present in Dominican Catholic monasteries. In fact, the Dominicans built a Dominican Monastery in Constantinople and then became Orthodox. They did the same in the country of Georgia which has a tradition of white monks (former Dominicans who took the vow of poverty). In fact, St. Seraphim of Sarov wore a white monastic garb and used a form of the Rosary. Makes you kind of wonder. Was he influenced by those Dominican converts to Orthodoxy?

Even in our day, there was a Dominican who was recently received as a Priest into the OCA.

[Tsarina]

^ I'm not a fan of pews, but those are pretty pews.

I go to a Greek monastery once a week, and they have these kind of pews there.

[xristos.anesti]

It's always the Greeks I am telling ya!
Those agents of Phanar!

(Looks around nervously)









^_^

[Nickolai]

Ahh, so they have pews of them...what are they called anyway? And in case people haev no clue what we are talking about, here is a pic...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v191/cantstopmycrossova/chairs.jpg
They are called "Stasidia", but can also be called "Kathismata" (just like the sections of the psalter).

It basically just means seat.

I must add that the ones in that pic are quite pretty.

[MichaelArchangelos]

In our church, those stalls are used only for the choir.

[Michael the Iconographer]

But there is no question concerning this!

No pews! Period!! :P
You say that almost infallibly. I wish things were that perfectly clear, black and white.

[xristos.anesti]

You say that almost infallibly.

He said that ex cathedra!

:)

[EmperorConstantine]

He said that ex cathedra!

:)
Does that mean we have to listen this time? :(

[xristos.anesti]

Does that mean we have to listen this time? :(

:)



Roma locuta est. Causa finita est (Rome has spoken. the case is closed) :)

[Michael the Iconographer]

He said that ex cathedra!

:)
Somehow I do not doubt that one bit!

[buzuxi02]

Probably the most dangerous form of modernism to recently face Orthodoxy is cremation. I hope Orthodox laity see the unorthodoxy of this practise.

[Anatole]

I've never heard of any Orthodox Christian ever being cremated. I'm pretty sure everyone knows that's not acceptable in EO.

[EmperorConstantine]

I've never heard of any Orthodox Christian ever being cremated. I'm pretty sure everyone knows that's not acceptable in EO.
In Japan, I believe that the government requires cremation. However, I also believe that funerals are held before cremation.

Check internet or that one guy who is in Japan for clarification!

[buzuxi02]

I've never heard of any Orthodox Christian ever being cremated. I'm pretty sure everyone knows that's not acceptable in EO.


You will soon. Greece has just lifted the ban on cremations and some bishops have publicly stated they dont see anything wrong with it.
And recently i have heard of EO being cremated caused a big stir among greeks who knew him.

[EmperorConstantine]

You will soon. Greece has just lifted the ban on cremations and some bishops have publicly stated they dont see anything wrong with it.
And recently i have heard of EO being cremated caused a big stir among greeks who knew him.

(in all seriousness)

IS OUTRAGE! :mad:

[repentant]

I would rather die than be cremated..oh wait...

[Vasileios]

buzuxi: source? I would have thought this would have reached my ears although I do not watch that much TV anymore. Any links? Particularly about the bishops endorsing it. I admit I have a hard time believing that...

[buzuxi02]

A few bishops expressed that cremation does not limit God.Such sentiments were found on editorials. While true cremation does not limit the ressurection, this is not an Orthodox position. When cremation was legalized on March 1, 2006 it was spearheaded mostly by greeks who claim they are Orthodox.

[Michael the Iconographer]

You will soon. Greece has just lifted the ban on cremations and some bishops have publicly stated they dont see anything wrong with it.
And recently i have heard of EO being cremated caused a big stir among greeks who knew him.
Do you have a source for this? If this is the case it is simply wrong. Cremation completely goes againt the teaching of the resurrection of the body at the end of time.

[repentant]

Not that I think we should cremate or anything...but how will those who were completely consumed in a fire ressurect?

[buzuxi02]

Dear Micheal you are correct, but this is how modernism takes hold.

The layman demand it because they are rebelious and want to be more like the west, then bishops begin to allow it on grounds of "oikonomia"

For instance, a greek clergy said that if Orthodoxy practised cremation, there would have never been wonder-working relics or incorrupt bodies of saints. The editors of one of the greek newspaper wrote a scathing article attacking the priest , saying the church only opposes cremation because with a lack of relics ,they will lose money from pilgrims who travel to shrines and donate. He tried to bash the church that it forbids it on grounds of money. So an influential editor uses his pulpit a popular greek newspaper to sway popular opinion, its rampant

This is a growing attitude among many complacent christians and thats why Regina Orthodox Press offers a book called "Dust to Dust Or Ashes to Ashes" refuting cremation.
Simply read this article below and you can simply sense this will be an issue within Orthodoxy in the near future:

New Greek Law Permits Cremation (http://www.helleniccomserve.com/newgreeklaw.html)

[choirfiend]

How will those who have turned into dust and been completely consumed back into the earth resurrect, either? By God's power. Cremation does not limit Him.

It does make a statement about the purpose and value of the body, though, which is why we do not practice it. We should never seek to purposely destroy our bodies any more than we purposely destroy our souls---or purposely destroy any of the rest of God's creation, which He created Good. This will be something that passes, like all wrongs.

[Khaleas]

The reason Greece was thinking about it (and I guess now permit it) was because they are running out of space in their cemetaries (or so they claim).
There is thought of permitting it in Finland too I've heard (haven't seen any writing about it yet) because since the ground is frozen so much of the year it is becoming hard to store all the coffins/bodies until they can be buried. Urns would be much space efficient to store.

[Michael the Iconographer]

The reason Greece was thinking about it (and I guess now permit it) was because they are running out of space in their cemetaries (or so they claim).
There is thought of permitting it in Finland too I've heard (haven't seen any writing about it yet) because since the ground is frozen so much of the year it is becoming hard to store all the coffins/bodies until they can be buried. Urns would be much space efficient to store.
And thus the ends justifies the means? Saving all of the space from no more cemeteries justifies defiling the human body, which is the temple of the Lord? No, it does not.

[Matrona]

The reason Greece was thinking about it (and I guess now permit it) was because they are running out of space in their cemetaries (or so they claim).

They could bury them feet-down... :D

[Rick of Wessex]

Hi, Repentant.

And that is another thing that get's me, the whole "Let's process around the whole Church for the Great Entrance" thing. What is that about?

Weil, in fact it is common practice in churches of Greek tradition to go around the entire church in the Great Entrance (unlike Slavs, who do the Great Entrance in the solea only).

The Greek practice of bringing the gifts around the whole church, the whole gathering, needs to be acknowledged as a better expression of the meaning of the Great Entrance than the Russian practice, where the gifts are only brought around the solea and then directly to the royal doors. For the meaning of this consists in the fact that the offering of each, included in the offering of all, is now being realized as the Church's offering for her very self, and this means Christ, for the Church is His body and He is the Head of the Church. Schmemann, Fr. Alexander. The Eucharist. pp 122-123.

[Michael the Iconographer]

Hi, Repentant.



Weil, in fact it is common practice in churches of Greek tradition to go around the entire church in the Great Entrance (unlike Slavs, who do the Great Entrance in the solea only).
Not all slavs only do the Great Entrance in the area right by the altar. Most of the OCA parishes I have attended in the US have also done the Great Entrance processing arround the whole church as well.

[xristos.anesti]

I think that cremation is bad for a single reason only, and that is the "good old": "we have no such a custom, nor the Churches of God"!

[EmperorConstantine]

Weil, in fact it is common practice in churches of Greek tradition to go around the entire church in the Great Entrance (unlike Slavs, who do the Great Entrance in the solea only).
Hey now, we have what we call "Greek style" and "Russian style".

Greek style: around the church.

Russian style: to the solea.


There are only few times a year that I can think of when we do it Russian style. Our parish has two church buildings. The first, Holy Trinity, was built by Russian miners in 1900. The second, Holy Resurrection, was built some 10-15 years ago (temp building) because Holy Trinity is in the rural areas whilst Holy Resurrection is closer to the urban areas where everyone lives. So the only time we do Russian style (that I know of) is whenever we are at Holy Trinity.

[choirfiend]

The procession comes from the time when the Gifts were kept in a separate "storehouse" next to the church building. The clergy would literally leave and bring them in, and the solemnity with which they processed as they brought the Gifts in to be offered on the altar is preserved today in the Great Entrance. It makes the most sense to go around the church, as they were originally entering through a side door near the rear of the church in most church's layouts.

[Matrona]

Hi, Repentant.

Weil, in fact it is common practice in churches of Greek tradition to go around the entire church in the Great Entrance (unlike Slavs, who do the Great Entrance in the solea only).

Yeah, I don't think I've ever seen a Greek church that didn't go all the way around or a Slavic church that did. I like the ones that go all the way around since it helps differentiate the entrance of the Holy Gifts a little better from the Little Entrance than the solea-only practice.

FTR, I've been to a Slavic monastery where the chapel is so tiny that it's really pretty much the same difference either way. :D

[Rick of Wessex]

Hi, Mike. Long time, no see. :wave:

Not all slavs only do the Great Entrance in the area right by the altar. Most of the OCA parishes I have attended in the US have also done the Great Entrance processing arround the whole church as well.

That's interesting. Fr. Schmemann's influence, perhaps?

Rick

[Michael the Iconographer]

Hi, Mike. Long time, no see. :wave:



That's interesting. Fr. Schmemann's influence, perhaps?

Rick
I am not sure where the influence came from, but in most of the OCA parishes I have attended in Ohio and Pennsylvania they do the procession arround the whole church, not just in front of the church.

[MariaRegina]

Not all slavs only do the Great Entrance in the area right by the altar. Most of the OCA parishes I have attended in the US have also done the Great Entrance processing arround the whole church as well.

An OCA priest offered me an explanation of why some OCA parishes have the Great Entrance where they process around the entire church:

Those parishes are considered to be multi-ethnic with a large percentage of Antiochians, Greeks, and Russians present in the parish. Since one parish serves so many ethnic groups, they adopt different ethnic traditions. Also many of those parishes either rotate languages so that one Sunday you will hear the Creed and the Epistle recited in Greek and English, and the second Sunday in Romanian or Serbian and English, and then on the third Sunday, Arabic and English and finally on the fourth Sunday of the month, it will be sung in Slavonic and English.

I have visited parishes like this and enjoy the variety of foods and religious traditions. In those parishes, the sermon is always in English, otherwise the poor children would be terribly confused. The Trisagion Hymn is often sung in three different languages: Greek, Arabic and English using the melody from St. Nicholas Antiochian Cathedral in Los Angeles.

[Tsarina]

Speaking of modernism, i went to an Antiochian parish today that had loads of pews, kneeler's, people crossing themselves open-handedly and the opposite way (it's not their fault, they weren't taught), and Priests who were clean shaven.

I couldn't hear the service because people were talking way to loud during service. I thought i had walked into an auditorium with icons. :doh: So depressing.

[repentant]

The reason Greece was thinking about it (and I guess now permit it) was because they are running out of space in their cemetaries (or so they claim).
There is thought of permitting it in Finland too I've heard (haven't seen any writing about it yet) because since the ground is frozen so much of the year it is becoming hard to store all the coffins/bodies until they can be buried. Urns would be much space efficient to store.

And thus the ends justifies the means? Saving all of the space from no more cemeteries justifies defiling the human body, which is the temple of the Lord? No, it does not.


Most places in Greece, especially the islands, bury whole families in one grave. When my grandfather died, they dug up the bones of his mother, father, sister etc, and placed his body in the ground (no coffin) and put the bones on top of him. This way they save space; by burying families together..

[repentant]

Hi, Repentant.



Weil, in fact it is common practice in churches of Greek tradition to go around the entire church in the Great Entrance (unlike Slavs, who do the Great Entrance in the solea only).

The procession comes from the time when the Gifts were kept in a separate "storehouse" next to the church building. The clergy would literally leave and bring them in, and the solemnity with which they processed as they brought the Gifts in to be offered on the altar is preserved today in the Great Entrance. It makes the most sense to go around the church, as they were originally entering through a side door near the rear of the church in most church's layouts.

Yeah, I don't think I've ever seen a Greek church that didn't go all the way around or a Slavic church that did. I like the ones that go all the way around since it helps differentiate the entrance of the Holy Gifts a little better from the Little Entrance than the solea-only practice.

FTR, I've been to a Slavic monastery where the chapel is so tiny that it's really pretty much the same difference either way. :D

I have never seen a Greek Church that did, only the Church I attend now. Usually they would come out the side door, and go directly to the front of the alter. Back home, there was a wall with a little walkway to go straight from the door to the alter, so they had to go around the wall. But still, it was in the front of the Church, and not around the whole Church. I have never seen this till now...

[Michael the Iconographer]

An OCA priest offered me an explanation of why some OCA parishes have the Great Entrance where they process around the entire church:

Those parishes are considered to be multi-ethnic with a large percentage of Antiochians, Greeks, and Russians present in the parish. Since one parish serves so many ethnic groups, they adopt different ethnic traditions. Also many of those parishes either rotate languages so that one Sunday you will hear the Creed and the Epistle recited in Greek and English, and the second Sunday in Romanian or Serbian and English, and then on the third Sunday, Arabic and English and finally on the fourth Sunday of the month, it will be sung in Slavonic and English.

I have visited parishes like this and enjoy the variety of foods and religious traditions. In those parishes, the sermon is always in English, otherwise the poor children would be terribly confused. The Trisagion Hymn is often sung in three different languages: Greek, Arabic and English using the melody from St. Nicholas Antiochian Cathedral in Los Angeles.
That is so far off from what I have experienced that it would take me pages to discuss it with you, so I simply won't.

[Michael the Iconographer]

Most places in Greece, especially the islands, bury whole families in one grave. When my grandfather died, they dug up the bones of his mother, father, sister etc, and placed his body in the ground (no coffin) and put the bones on top of him. This way they save space; by burying families together..
Burying families together is not disrespectful to a dead person's body. Cremation is.

[repentant]

Burying families together is not disrespectful to a dead person's body. Cremation is.

Yea, I know. It was in response to the "no room" in Greece.

[Michael the Iconographer]

Yea, I know. It was in response to the "no room" in Greece.
Ok, makes sense to me.

[authiodionitist]

I dunno... I go to an Antiochian parish composed almost entirely of converts, so we may be talking about two different things. The uproar over my parish is the possibility of Protestant influence, which is a sore subject considering how many people abandoned Baptist churches and the like for Orthodoxy.
There is a similar Antiochian parish up here that is doing lots of non-Traditional things.... I've only encountered a strong parish clique there, the rest is hearsay.

I do not know if you addressed this later, forgive me for my redundancy if you did.