To folk who post on internet forums

[rusmeister]

Having been a poster for quite a while now, I've been coming to some conclusions.
This forum is the best I’ve seen.In a world where people don’t share beliefs at all anymore, where pluralism rules and your beliefs don’t matter to the public (they are yours, and not shared by most around you) having a place, even virtual, where you can find agreement on the ideas that are the foundation for everything in our lives gives a great sense of relief from the discord in society around us.

However, even here, there is a wide range of opinions and even belief. People bicker and disagree, we sometimes offend each other, frequently people need to ‘take breaks’ or leave altogether. My time might come sometime. I feel very isolated and starved , especially for normal communication in English (not as a teacher), but I can see an end to this – if it is an addiction and I spend too much time here, if I am offending others, esp. out of pride. I’m tired of seeing threads take all kinds of turns that stray far from the OP and get shut down, and for people to decide that they need to leave based on the bickering or whatever.

We are infected by the society around us. As I said before:
We all come to the Church messed up in different ways. The Church, if we let it, gradually cures us of those things. One of my hang-ups was political passion, which let go of me only a year or so ago. We can be infected by various little ideas that really push us away from Orthodoxy or keep us from getting closer to God and not even be aware of it. Our hang-ups vary greatly and have us opposing each other.

We are steeped in this pluralism from childhood. Attitudes of feminism and gay rights are just a couple of the facets of this ideology, which is deeply opposed to Orthodoxy. Nevertheless, all of us have ways in which we need to grow and learn. One of the things I became aware of really only a few years ago (How did I make it to nearly 40 and not learn this??) was that ideas are inculcated in us largely without our conscious awareness – we are taught knee-jerk reactions to things that oppose these root ideas, or ideologies. Most of them have some kind of apparent surface justification – enough to make a person think the beliefs don’t need to be examined. That’s why we can have such an amazing range of disagreement on secular matters that are important and impacted by faith. Even though we share a common Faith, the little unexamined ideas in our heads, implanted by school, the media, former faith or whatever keep cutting in and bringing out the knee-jerk reactions.

People discuss all kinds of details of life here, but few think of the ideas driving their attitudes towards those details, and when folk disagree, they just argue details and often don’t see the premises, theirs, or the person they are arguing with.

Obviously, Christian humility can go a long way towards keeping that stuff down to a minimum. But we do want to try to be ‘wise as serpents’ while being harmless as doves.

By reading Christian thinkers like C.S. Lewis and G.K.Chesterton, I have been learning to identify my own premises, as well as those of others. (still learning!)

[Thekla]

What you've said makes alot of sense to me - probably because I think I agree with you. Even as secular people, I think we need to constantly inspect ourselves; how much moreso as Christians in a secular society...

And the internet is tricky ... several recent studies ( at least 10 if I recall correctly) indicate that people with schizophrenia cannot "see" facial expressions -properly-, or 'hear' speech intonations. They also often don't show facial expressions, or use intonation when speaking. Humans rely so much on these avenues of communication. In a way, the internet makes us all a little "schizophrenic".

[tattedschmoe]

What you've said makes alot of sense to me - probably because I think I agree with you. Even as secular people, I think we need to constantly inspect ourselves; how much moreso as Christians in a secular society...

And the internet is tricky ... several recent studies ( at least 10 if I recall correctly) indicate that people with schizophrenia cannot "see" facial expressions -properly-, or 'hear' speech intonations. They also often don't show facial expressions, or use intonation when speaking. Humans rely so much on these avenues of communication. In a way, the internet makes us all a little "schizophrenic".

your last point goes to show exactly why i love using emotioncons even when i'm typing something that is in disagreement.

it's the sad thing about the internet that we can't see the other sides mannerisms, but we do have emotioncons that i wonder if people forget to use, and are really valuable tools to keep discussions going on a good productive level.

so when i'm typing, i have noticed that i'm trying to use emotioncons to show my mood while writing what i have to say. i got tired of great topics being ruined because either i, or the other sides doesn't know my intentions in regards to either being angry or upset.

[Thekla]

your last point goes to show exactly why i love using emotioncons even when i'm typing something that is in disagreement.

me too !

[Philothei]

Regarding the issue of dissagreement on the net. I think since we are all human and we all err, internet must be taken with a grain of salt... that is it is still another communication device that cannot replace face to face communication and substitute traditional human relations. It is normal for people to "misscommunicate" with each other, I think it happens among friends that they see each other every week, so much more for people who know each other only through the forums. I also believe it depends on the sensitivity level and comofort zone of each individual... Some of us are more tolerant others are not, somethings that bother me do not bother others. We do not know each other's sensitivities and individual experiences so it is natural to misscommunicate. Again though this is the challenge of being Christian to forgive and forget, also not to offend, even it is conscious or unconscious, and nobody is more perfect than the other. Pride is the worse enemy. We are all learners. Lord have mercy, I ask for forgiveness, if I have you offended you my friend.


God bless,
Philothei

[Xpycoctomos]

I like the OP a lot. It makes me think.

[rusmeister]

If people are really sick, and are conditioned to believe that they are not sick, and perhaps even to violently attack suggestions that they are sick (or at least to automatically ignore them), how do you tell them they are sick?

It's interesting to note that some of you seemed to see in my post mainly a concern about lack of face-to-face contact. The core idea is actually THIS:

ideas are inculcated in us largely without our conscious awareness – we are taught knee-jerk reactions to things that oppose these root ideas, or ideologies.

This affects nearly everything we post on the internet. It is a prime cause of all the arguing, bickering, the intense range of views - that reaches points of opposition, on areas that matter - child-rearing, education and male-female roles are some things that come quickly to mind.


We are more and more to discuss details in art, politics, literature. A man's opinion on tramcars matters; his opinion on Botticelli matters; his opinion on all things does not matter. He may turn over and explore a million objects, but he must not find that strange object,the universe; for if he does he will have a religion, and be lost.Everything matters--except everything.
Chesterton, "Heretics" ch 1 - "Introductory Remarks on the Importance of Orthodoxy"

The key word here is details, and the point is that the ideas behind the details are not discussed. (It was the recent SAHMs thread that inspired me to this, but this goes for much of the posting here.)

I honestly feel that so far only one person has really read and understood my post (:bow: please do not be offended!:bow: ). My point is that each and every one of us has hidden assumptions operating quietly and unexamined in the back of our minds. People's emotions, feelings, and even offense are results - symptoms. The cause is the indoctrinated attitudes we carry, and we do not often think about those attitudes consciously because we think we understand them, and THAT's why a serious thread like SAHMs gets shut down. (At this point I still believe and hope that we can get some benefit from communicating with strangers on the internet.)

[Dust and Ashes]

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[EmperorConstantine]

Rusmeister, this thread is making me think why I even post on internet forums. Thank you.

[Xpycoctomos]

Great thread, it really gets to the heart of why we so easily misinterpret and misunderstand each other.


And I think it's perhaps not so much that, but rather that we don't thoroughly understand our OWN selves before expressing and holding our views dear. Why I'm so adverse to orthodoxinfo.com may have a lot more to do with my protestant,-everyone-is-equal,-don't judge me,-christianity's-supposed-to-be-easy,-I-want-to-hold-hands-with-everyone-in-the-world-and-just-lead-a-peacful-and-happy-life mentality than anything truly concrete. I offer that as an example.

Rumeister... is this hitting on what the OP was getting at, at least in part?

[Dust and Ashes]

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[Xpycoctomos]

Rumeister will have to judge that. In the meantime... I will secretly imagine ways in which I can celebrate my victory and pretend to be humbled and be gracious to my worthy opponent, you. I can imagine it now:

"I humbly accept this prize of 'one who understood best' the Original Post of Rumeister. And I express my gratitude to my worthy opponent, Dust and Ashes, whose humility and post, although fundamentally erroneous, allowed me to come up with my genious post. So, the genious is not all mine for I am indebted to both the OP and my adversary. Please hold the applause.... okay, now you can applaud as I stare off into the distance in truly humble and pensive mode. Thank you everyone!"

[rusmeister]

And I think it's perhaps not so much that, but rather that we don't thoroughly understand our OWN selves before expressing and holding our views dear. Why I'm so adverse to orthodoxinfo.com may have a lot more to do with my protestant,-everyone-is-equal,-don't judge me,-christianity's-supposed-to-be-easy,-I-want-to-hold-hands-with-everyone-in-the-world-and-just-lead-a-peacful-and-happy-life mentality than anything truly concrete. I offer that as an example.

Rumeister... is this hitting on what the OP was getting at, at least in part?
Yes, it does touch on the idea. More specifically, Protestant upbringing, like training of feminism and acceptance of homosexuality in schools, can certainly leave those kinds of reactions.

My 'bleats' (to borrow from Lewis):

I honestly feel that some ideas get the 'ignore' button, especially if they make us feel uncomfortable. It's easier to shoot the messenger (although today shooting in unPC, so we just write him off as a whacko...).

What happens on threads like this is either people begin talking about unrelated topics, or simply voice their own opinions without really responding to what others have said.

I also posted some serious stuff on education a while back, and learned the truth of Upton Sinclair's statement that it is very hard to get someone to understand something if their job depends on their not understanding it.

My point here is that as a corollary to unexamined operating assumptions, these assumptions create blind spots, where any thoughts that seek to go in and examine them get, in the terms of my teenage roleplaying games of the 70's-80's, "an unnoticeability spell cast on them".

As I said, these ideas drilled into us in childhood, ones which actually part ways with Orthodoxy, lie in us and usually we're not aware of them. If someone else points them out, we don't want to hear it. And then we argue and bicker and have points of view on everything under the sun, don't want to acknowledge that our opinions may not all be equal, that there may be people, both in and out of the Church that know far more than we do, enough to transform our understanding if only we would listen (sometimes we do - but some topics, like schools and motherhood, seem to be hot button issues where we shut down and then get shut down).

This leads to a related problem where we want to have opinions without doing what's necessary so that the opinions become truly informed opinions - the soundbite culture (I saw a 5-minute special on the problems in Iraq, so now I are qualified to make an informed decision on what needs to be done to solve that country's problems...). But more on that elsewhere.

I'm just feeling that in the face of this, maybe posting is a complete waste of time.

[MariaRegina]

Rusmeister,

I know that you have mentioned the subject of indoctrination especially in schools.

I thought of going for my doctorate in education until you brought this up and I want to thank you for your warnings and elucidations.

As a result, I am avoiding education classes whenever I can, especially after enrolling in one at a local community college where the woman teaching it had two masters degrees in educational psychology and in counseling and didn't finish her Ph.D. but bragged about almost finishing it. She was very confrontational and her first class was my last. Anytime anyone said anything, she challenged their core beliefs. It had a chilling silencing effect because nothing was sacrosanct. We were judged before a word could come out of our mouths based on our facial expression as if she were the infallible judge of our every thought and gesture.

And there are certain folk at CF who also judge and figure that they know what our intentions are.

So, if I go to another forum at CF, which shall not be mentioned, and post with my Orthodox Faith icon, then certain folks there will judge me to be anti-semitic just because they know that we don't believe in the Rapture. And that is a knee jerk reaction that is totally uncalled for. They color everything we say based on their flawed misperceptions because they were taught falsehoods. So, I am glad that they stay in their tightly ruled forum.

Sadly, such is life.

And then I am reminded of those heavenly jokes, where a person enters heaven and sees different Christian faiths in different parts of heaven surrounded with high walls. When asked about the high walls separating the various Christian denominations, St. Peter says, "Shhhh, be quiet, they think that they are the only ones in heaven."

[Thekla]

I honestly feel that some ideas get the 'ignore' button, especially if they make us feel uncomfortable. It's easier to shoot the messenger (although today shooting in unPC, so we just write him off as a whacko...). it seems (if I'm getting this), that 'we' tend to put a face on an idea or discomfort, then take a whack at the "face" -- whether its the right one or not

As I said, these ideas drilled into us in childhood, ones which actually part ways with Orthodoxy, lie in us and usually we're not aware of them. If someone else points them out, we don't want to hear it. And then we argue and bicker and have points of view on everything under the sun, don't want to acknowledge that our opinions may not all be equal, that there may be people, both in and out of the Church that know far more than we do, enough to transform our understanding if only we would listen
I do think this is quite a problem ( I've been working in OC bookstores for awhile... even the tone of the writing matters quite a bit, IMO).

If I can wander a bit ... the considered life requires a great deal of effort, and the possibility of failure. WE do not (again, my opinion)
live in a culture that accepts either easily

Per any conversation, it seems more than half the work involves the discovery of a 'common language', from experience informing the definitions to the words themselves.

This leads to a related problem where we want to have opinions without doing what's necessary so that the opinions become truly informed opinions - the soundbite culture (I saw a 5-minute special on the problems in Iraq, so now I are qualified to make an informed decision on what needs to be done to solve that country's problems...)

I can simply say, agreed ...

I'm just feeling that in the face of this, maybe posting is a complete waste of time. its a new way of communicating, which is part of the reason for my
'expression/tone" comments. In posting on GT recently, I couldn't tell if I was playing chess or exchanging ideas -

... and I don't know if this is appropriate to this conversation, but I have started reading a book called Dialogism, about the thought of
M. Bakhtin (whose writing is grand and tough ). Bakhtin remarks on three aspects of "dialogue" (so far) which I find quite interesting:

1. That every dialog draws from every conversation that has come before, and influences every dialog that comes after it

2. That, when speaking to the "other", I can see what is behind him, and he what is behind me -- we can become 'eyes' for each other

3. That the greater the distance of 'experience/meaning' between the
'conversants', the greater the potential for value.

... if I've got it right. I'm still trying to sort out the internet thing, and whether meaningful exchanges can happen on it. Is it the medium, or culture, or whatever. (Also, if I remember correctly from another source, in personal language (family, etc) nouns are often dropped. )

I'm sorry if I've missed your point (sorry :(-)- but I'm trying to find a firmer common ground. Its usually how I talk PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong !!!!

[MariaRegina]

Computer experts of the future hope to make the Internet a big chat forum with live speakers and cameras so we can see each other.

However, people who are deaf will still use the print media, and those who are blind will need to use the braille printouts. So, there are still uses for the print media. And yes, emoticons are very helpful. Yet, they are difficult for me to use all the time.

When I really want to be funny, yes I will use them, but for more serious writings, emoticons don't work, especially in academic writings.

[Thekla]

Computer experts of the future hope to make the Internet a big chat forum with live speakers and cameras so we can see each other.

(here's me being stupid me again :sigh:), but even the smells are important ... this is why perhaps at least I feel so out of it here

When I really want to be funny, yes I will use them, but for more serious writings, emoticons don't work, especially in academic writings.

its hard to know if nuances exchange well, especially for ungifted writers like me ... I actually really dislike emoticons (brrrr), but find them useful. Rather like masks to be filled ...

[Thekla]

Rusmeister --

and I always forget something ... but the sort of shouting that occurs on threads ... in life, shouting is often the result of feeling that one has not been "heard". And, in (at least this culture, if I've got it right) a stand-in for authority.

again, don't know if I'm actually responding - but think this ties in to a number of things you've said ...

[MariaRegina]

The smells?

Well, basically those will be included. Smells can be coded chemically and then reproduced. Trouble is that they will be chemical and for people like me who have multiple chemical sensitivities, using the future computers will be awful.

But if we get a CME (coronal mass ejection) or solar explosion as we travel through the galaxy (during this global warming period), then our computers could be fried and all modern solid state technology could be disabled. Then we would be back to using regular electric typewriters and tube radios. This scenario is possible and may in the end be a blessing, except for those of us who are writing master's thesis or doctoral dissertations and who have failed to save a printed copy of our most recent work.

[EmperorConstantine]

Rusmeister, you're a smart guy. I'm sure that at some point in time someone started thinking because of your posts.

That is what makes posting worthwhile: getting someone to think something they have never thought before. Like the possibility that yes, Christianity survived in the Middle East from Pentecost to modern times.:eek:

[MariaRegina]

(http://bestsmileys.com/happy/1.gif)

[Dust and Ashes]

.

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

Yes, it does touch on the idea. More specifically, Protestant upbringing, like training of feminism and acceptance of homosexuality in schools, can certainly leave those kinds of reactions.

My 'bleats' (to borrow from Lewis):

I honestly feel that some ideas get the 'ignore' button, especially if they make us feel uncomfortable. It's easier to shoot the messenger (although today shooting in unPC, so we just write him off as a whacko...).

What happens on threads like this is either people begin talking about unrelated topics, or simply voice their own opinions without really responding to what others have said.

I also posted some serious stuff on education a while back, and learned the truth of Upton Sinclair's statement that it is very hard to get someone to understand something if their job depends on their not understanding it.

My point here is that as a corollary to unexamined operating assumptions, these assumptions create blind spots, where any thoughts that seek to go in and examine them get, in the terms of my teenage roleplaying games of the 70's-80's, "an unnoticeability spell cast on them".

As I said, these ideas drilled into us in childhood, ones which actually part ways with Orthodoxy, lie in us and usually we're not aware of them. If someone else points them out, we don't want to hear it. And then we argue and bicker and have points of view on everything under the sun, don't want to acknowledge that our opinions may not all be equal, that there may be people, both in and out of the Church that know far more than we do, enough to transform our understanding if only we would listen (sometimes we do - but some topics, like schools and motherhood, seem to be hot button issues where we shut down and then get shut down).

This leads to a related problem where we want to have opinions without doing what's necessary so that the opinions become truly informed opinions - the soundbite culture (I saw a 5-minute special on the problems in Iraq, so now I are qualified to make an informed decision on what needs to be done to solve that country's problems...). But more on that elsewhere.

I'm just feeling that in the face of this, maybe posting is a complete waste of time.
I'm just popping in to agree with this post, rusmeister, and to thank you for it. It's very articulate and cuts into the heart of matter.

I have often sat back in my computer chair with my mouth agape at how the meaning or content of some posts can become completely altered once it's been filtered through someone's else's "operating assumptions". It's amazing how often arguments arise from things that weren't said, but were assumed to be part of someone else's premise. This of course leads to arguing over side issues which may not have anything to do with the original point of a post.

Unfortunately, I don't think there will be a solution to this problem in an internet forum.

[Thekla]

I have often sat back in my computer chair with my mouth agape at how the meaning or content of some posts can become completely altered once it's been filtered through someone's else's "operating assumptions". It's amazing how often arguments arise from things that weren't said, but were assumed to be part of someone else's premise. This of course leads to arguing over side issues which may not have anything to do with the original point of a post.

I don't disagree with either of you; rather I think this may happen as a result sometimes of trying to build the "common ground" of a conversation. In 'solid life', that common ground must take into account the personality of the conversants; this is hard to do in the virtual world.

Until the common ground is found, no real conversation can occur.

[Mary of Bethany]

I'm just feeling that in the face of this, maybe posting is a complete waste of time.

Please forgive me for narrowing your post down to one last sentence. I basically agree with your premise about the difficulties of communicating beyond our pre-conceived notions. I just wanted to say that it's never a waste of time to fellowship with other Orthodox Christians - at least from my point of view. :)

Sometimes I do think I should just stay in TAW, but I like to poke around the other forums, too. If I start getting angry or judgemental, I come back in here.

Anyway . . . . . . please keep posting!

Mary

[elizabethevangeline]

Rusmeister --

and I always forget something ... but the sort of shouting that occurs on threads ... in life, shouting is often the result of feeling that one has not been "heard". And, in (at least this culture, if I've got it right) a stand-in for authority.

again, don't know if I'm actually responding - but think this ties in to a number of things you've said ...
This is a really good point! Taking time to acknowledge someone's differing viewpoint goes a long way toward maintaining a civil discussion. It gives the other person "space" to respond in kind and stay in the conversation longer-instead of escalating to debate and misunderstanding.

[rusmeister]

Thanks for all of the comments. I do appreciate them. (Thekla and Aria had some good ones - seems like too many to comment on them all.)

When I posted my "American Education Redux" thread (http://www.christianforums.com/t3198103), I found that a number of people didn't really read the OP or even the shorter readings I pointed to - perhaps they just wanted to state their opinions without informing them further, but in any event, when I asked people to comment (on John Dewey's statements, who defined public school philosophy), people stopped posting. EDIT - I just re-read that thread, and it totally makes my points here. Almost no one responded directly to anything that I posted, and I was the bloody OP. I'd encourage you to read it at least to see that. As soon as I asked people to read what I had written, the posting stopped.
So even though I was speaking about something that I felt very important (our own children, for crying out loud!), I came to the conclusion that there was something deeper as to why people didn't respond to rather damning evidence of a catastrophic problem, and that addressing THAT is more important than addressing any problem. (Some may think I'm crazy, but they have said nothing to disprove what I have pointed to.) Seeing thread after thread, even here, break down into bickering and opposing opinions with few arriving at new truths just reinforced, for me, the need to put the finger on why people don't hear each other, and why they can't arrive at truth or solid agreement, in spite of sharing the most important thing, common Faith.

As I said, the attitude of "I know as much as the next guy or gal regardless of age or experience" also plays a role, but I'll allow that maybe that ought to be dealt with separately (perhaps as one of the hidden operating assumptions).

Agreeing with my conclusions is not 'required'. Reading them and responding to them is. If we're not doing that, we're not communicating at all.


Again, thanks to you who noticed my posts!

[MariaRegina]

This thread on human-animal hybrid development located at:

http://www.christianforums.com/usercp.php

and this post below tie in with what Rusmeister has been saying all along: We are in deep trouble.

http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=34940390&postcount=14

[rusmeister]

Maybe I should change my username to "Threadkiller". :(

[MariaRegina]

Maybe I should change my username to "Threadkiller". :(

No, not true.

That name belongs to someone else. LOL

Let's face it. Some people do not like to be made aware of reality because they are living in a fantasy world where they can watch TV all day and somehow get all their chores and prayers done. How they do it I don't know. They must be very wealthy.

[Theophorus]

Agreeing with my conclusions is not 'required'. Reading them and responding to them is. If we're not doing that, we're not communicating at all.

Communication exists in context, even on the internet. Context of relationship and affiliation, which you concede, presuppositions and stereotypes, etc.
The premise of a forum is just that. And that often equals chaos, even though the scope of the forum may be limited.
Given your background, I am sure you have attended face to face conferences and seminars that were tedious and combative to the extreme.
But the reality being, this is a part of "communication".

The question is, whether one wishes to contribute to it or not. Expectations are irrelevant, but thoughts and concerns and are not.
Steadfastness and Patience are two virtues that work on forums, I am sure that others do also.


Again, thanks to you who noticed my posts! I have noticed them, and maybe check out how many people are on taw at a given time.

[Thekla]

Maybe I should change my username to "Threadkiller". :(
We've been away for most of 2 days, and I've stupidly been on GT.
Do want to finish up there ... and NOT go back :0

A friend and I discussed Dewey a bit while said friend was in (ed) school. I'll take a look when I drop the other thing (or maybe before).
Promise to be back... just takes awhile for me to read AND digest -
I'm a slow thinker. And homeschooler ...

Hey ! I'm the thread killer ... at least don't take THAT away from me :)

[rusmeister]

Communication exists in context, even on the internet. Context of relationship and affiliation, which you concede, presuppositions and stereotypes, etc.
The premise of a forum is just that. And that often equals chaos, even though the scope of the forum may be limited.
Given your background, I am sure you have attended face to face conferences and seminars that were tedious and combative to the extreme.
But the reality being, this is a part of "communication".

The question is, whether one wishes to contribute to it or not. Expectations are irrelevant, but thoughts and concerns and are not.
Steadfastness and Patience are two virtues that work on forums, I am sure that others do also.

I have noticed them, and maybe check out how many people are on taw at a given time.
I can't say I agree with this as I understand it. The kind of communication I'm talking about is not only broadcasting your thoughts - it is not really communicated until it is received somewhere (If you prefer we can talk about the two definitions but need to be clear). I'd call the former transmission and the latter reception. The 2 together make up communication.

If we at TAW can't listen to each other, how can we hope to do it in GT? We wind up talking AT (or past) each other rather than TO each other.

If we don't take the trouble to become better informed on a question - especially by people who really do have a basis for knowing about a topic, be it iconography, theology, education, therapy or whatever - how can we expect others to listen to our opinions? How can we communicate what our Faith and lives have taught us?

I basically agree with your premise about the difficulties of communicating beyond our pre-conceived notions. I just wanted to say that it's never a waste of time to fellowship with other Orthodox Christians - at least from my point of view.

I'll add that while I do have my doubts, I do hope that Mary is right.

[Xpycoctomos]

So Ru,

You've never really learned anything from being in this forum? I'm that's fine. It's not meant sarcastically. I'm really just surprised.

Now, is it more valuable to read a book or fellowship with others in person? Yeah. I would agree with you there. Personally I see this as a pasttime becuase I have plenty of Orthdox friends for fellowship and my priest for questions and books at home. It's benefitted me, but it is certainly not a necessity at all. Now, for others that's different becuase of their own life circumstances, so I am not assuming anythinga bout anyone else's position on this.

John

[MariaRegina]

Some have expressed the opinion that the primary purpose of being at CF is to reach out to those newcomers who come bearing questions as they inquire into Orthodoxy.

CF is an open forum where people of faith, those who are searching, and those who lack the faith can come and share. Sometimes those who are anti-Christian have been converted back to Christ by our prayers. Sadly, some Christians who are weak in the faith, have lost the faith completely. I guess that is a trade-off.

Sometimes, I wonder what the stats show at CF? Are we losing more Christians? I don't think so. I have met a lot of folks who have embraced Christianity and even Orthodox Christianity through the ministry offered at CF.

However, if we just post to Orthodox Christians in TAW and don't venture into the Outreach, then we will not be as effective as witnesses. Nevertheless, not all of us are called to be preachers and teachers of the Good News. Some of us are called to pray silently for the success of the preachers and teachers among us. Prayer is a ministry too.

If we do feel called to be bearers of the Good News, and if we do venture into the non-Christian or non-Orthodox Christian areas to preach the good news, then we may cause scandal or turn people off if we are not properly educated in the faith and steeped in the love of Christ Who should enlighten our mind, body and soul. The only way that we can put on Christ and properly bear witness to Him is to faithfully keep our rule of prayer and be obedient to our Spiritual Father.

So, yes, a lot of us are preaching to the choir.
And we are all sinners.

I do think, however, that our posts here in TAW could be a little more gentle especially when dealing with people who have bipolar disorder and other mental illnesses. At times we are all a little mental or sleep deprived. This is seen when a close friend or relative dies, when we are going through escrow, changing a job, getting married, going through childbirth, or even taking college finals. So, we should try to be a little more understanding with each other.

We should strive above all not to be confrontational like my college psychology/educational methodology professor who challenged everything we said and thought because she has no faith. This confrontational attitude does not heal, but on the contrary, it causes people to become more defensive and/or even violent as Akathist has experienced.

Some might say that Christ was confrontational when he threw the money-changers out of the temple and when he called the Pharisees "hypocrites." Surely he was talking at the Pharisees. Why?

I guess there is a time to be gentle and merciful, and a time to be confrontational, but so many of us mess up here and become too confrontational and bossy instead, while we forget the gentle and merciful side of the Lord our God.

O Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on us sinners, and save us.

[MariaRegina]

double post data error

[MariaRegina]

Bump to see if this thread is still working.

[rusmeister]

So Ru,

You've never really learned anything from being in this forum? I'm that's fine. It's not meant sarcastically. I'm really just surprised.

Now, is it more valuable to read a book or fellowship with others in person? Yeah. I would agree with you there. Personally I see this as a pasttime becuase I have plenty of Orthdox friends for fellowship and my priest for questions and books at home. It's benefitted me, but it is certainly not a necessity at all. Now, for others that's different becuase of their own life circumstances, so I am not assuming anythinga bout anyone else's position on this.

John
This again makes my point, John, I didn't say anything to even imply that I haven't learned anything, and yet you read it into my post.

By 'waste of time' my direct meaning was that I am writing and thinking that I am communicating something when in reality we are talking past each other, and that can be because one, both, or all of the people involved do not want to hear what the others are saying - especially because of hidden operating assumptions.

I also mean that perhaps there are other things some of us should be doing instead of this. Opportunities for sin abound, even in typing here. By offending others, running away from duties in the world or simply indulging computer addiction are a few examples. But for now I think my main point is the one to focus on because it is one that is the most difficult to even become aware of - the indoctrination is hidden.

(Edit - Just to say publicly that Aria's last post added some very good points to what I have been driving at.)

[Dust and Ashes]

.

[Shubunkin]

I know I have met some wonderful people on this forum. :)

[Theophorus]

I can't say I agree with this as I understand it. The kind of communication I'm talking about is not only broadcasting your thoughts - it is not really communicated until it is received somewhere (If you prefer we can talk about the two definitions but need to be clear). I'd call the former transmission and the latter reception. The 2 together make up communication.

You are speaking of the classic communication loop or cycle, or whatever. That does not apply here but rarely. Most here are advocates of something or another, but that does not mean one's words do not communicate.
The important dynamic of forum communication is the need for validation. Most forums exists with this purpose in mind. The result is that dissenting opinions immediately seek flaws, at any level. At least errors they think are obvious. This naturally is a type of aggression and can be so from both sides of a discussion.

It is commonly referred to as debate. Debate is a form of communication. The problem is, in real life and in forums, no winner is proclaimed.

[Theophorus]

Bump to see if this thread is still working.

Who knows, I just posted a reply, my control panel shows it, but I don't see it here.

I'm gone for awhile for technical reasons. the site is too buggy.

[Shubunkin]

this thread doesn't seem to be working for me :confused:

[Shubunkin]

trying it again, my posts do not seem to be going through... here :o

[Shubunkin]

Okay, it seems to working now. :o

[rusmeister]

You are speaking of the classic communication loop or cycle, or whatever. That does not apply here but rarely. Most here are advocates of something or another, but that does not mean one's words do not communicate.
The important dynamic of forum communication is the need for validation. Most forums exists with this purpose in mind. The result is that dissenting opinions immediately seek flaws, at any level. At least errors they think are obvious. This naturally is a type of aggression and can be so from both sides of a discussion.

It is commonly referred to as debate. Debate is a form of communication. The problem is, in real life and in forums, no winner is proclaimed.
I take it when you say "does not apply here" you mean that at CF it often doesn't happen.
It certainly is the thrust of my thread, so does apply 'here'. In the sense in which I am insisting on speaking of communication, such debates are not communication.

Cygne, I think a lot of people here are wonderful, too. But that doesn't change the communication problem. And one of the big stoppers, Theo, is the hidden assumptions which have been indoctrinated into us via the media and most especially school (and whatever else you care to add to the understanding of 'our society'. That's why a person can mix feminist or other pluralist thought into Orthodoxy and not see a contradiction, and when others do, take offense and begin defending their (what is really an inculcated) philosophy that sometimes runs perpendicular (or worse) to the Faith. I'll readily admit that I can be as guilty as anyone else.

My personal knowledge is what the public schools are designed to do to us, and that is where I feel I can contribute. Someone who works in media can share what they know about the indoctrination of 'the masses' and anyone else who knows how we are indoctrinated are invited to bring their experience to the table.

Living lives that are deeply public - bombardment at school and constantly by the media, we are chock full of ideas that are not really compatible with our Faith. When I tried to demonstrate how that happens on the education thread (http://www.christianforums.com/t3198103), what I said was almost TOTALLY ignored, as if I hadn't even said anything but, "Hey guys, what do YOU think?" That is a lack of or failure of communication. (I do hope to restart that thread this next month, add stuff and get input that responds to what's there. In the meantime, comments on what is there relating to the OP are always welcome.)

[Dust and Ashes]

Sorry for littering your thread, Rus. I have no pertinent knowledge of the OP or education so I'll just unsubscribe.

[Philothei]

I take it when you say "does not apply here" you mean that at CF it often doesn't happen.
It certainly is the thrust of my thread, so does apply 'here'. In the sense in which I am insisting on speaking of communication, such debates are not communication.

Cygne, I think a lot of people here are wonderful, too. But that doesn't change the communication problem. And one of the big stoppers, Theo, is the hidden assumptions which have been indoctrinated into us via the media and most especially school (and whatever else you care to add to the understanding of 'our society'. That's why a person can mix feminist or other pluralist thought into Orthodoxy and not see a contradiction, and when others do, take offense and begin defending their (what is really an inculcated) philosophy that sometimes runs perpendicular (or worse) to the Faith. I'll readily admit that I can be as guilty as anyone else.

My personal knowledge is what the public schools are designed to do to us, and that is where I feel I can contribute. Someone who works in media can share what they know about the indoctrination of 'the masses' and anyone else who knows how we are indoctrinated are invited to bring their experience to the table.

Living lives that are deeply public - bombardment at school and constantly by the media, we are chock full of ideas that are not really compatible with our Faith. When I tried to demonstrate how that happens on the education thread (http://www.christianforums.com/t3198103), what I said was almost TOTALLY ignored, as if I hadn't even said anything but, "Hey guys, what do YOU think?" That is a lack of or failure of communication. (I do hope to restart that thread this next month, add stuff and get input that responds to what's there. In the meantime, comments on what is there relating to the OP are always welcome.)
I somehow understand your point and I think it is well taken... but how do you draw the line? After all we do live in a plularistic society. Syncretism.. is creaping into all religious expressions not only ours. Religious traditionalism also comes with a price. It is a balancing act. You either remain relevant to society or get pushed away and get a name as a "cult" or indifferent. To me personally I believe that we can use new methods and formulas as Orthodox as long as we bring forth the partistic world view and thought and make it relevant to our present condition. That would require a lot of work. Traslating the fathers for one and gathering up Orthodox theologians to "speak" to us about them. In world Orthdoxy we have many theologians but not an organized front that could undertake such a task.... and that hurts us as a group. Contemporary issues are not dealt head on and unfortunately it will catch up with us soon... if we do not do something about it. Unfortunately I have to admitt that the CC has a more organized front to dealt with contemporary issues of morality than we do....Can we always say that we Orthodox do not have an "official view of such and such because ...." for this and another reason? I realy think we appear too weak.

"indocrination" as you call it is ineffible to happen in all societies. Realization of our 'indocrination' is even harder to view when one is already in looking inside... Most of America's population have not traveled outside its country's borders... that can be a problem when trying to discern about your self, it is a disadvantage. I will say no more, about the media it is pretty much self explainatory...

God bless,
Philothei

[elizabethevangeline]

Hi Rus-
I've been following this discussion and wanted to comment on the lack of response you refer to...for myself, I can say that some topics are important & interesting to me but just too detailed to engage in a written conversation.

As much as I enjoy reading the discussions-I rarely comment because usually someone else will cover my general opinion;
or it's just too much work to express my thots in writing, given the time I have;
or by the time I have formulated my thots into something I feel compelled to write-the thread has moved on.
IOW-I'm actually a verbal processor & that limits my participation in more intensive, written discussions.

Not sure my comment contributes much to this thread-just wanted you to know that silence isn't always a rejection.

[elizabethevangeline]

I should add that I could talk face to face about some of these topics for hours-and I suspect that prospect terrifies some of the more introverted members here! :)

(sorry, extrovert humor-torture by "verbal" abuse)

[MariaRegina]

The fact that we have more lurkers than posters in TAW speaks volumes.

Communicating in Internet forums was very difficult for me at first because everyone expressed their own opinions as if they were the only ones who were right. That can cause problems because of the ego involved.

I like to learn and hear the facts ... not the politically correct ideas espoused by the educational system and the current ruling party or people behind the system (the Insiders).

When we are preached at and given the politically correct ideas, then it becomes a dictatorship of the masses or mind control. That is the system we had under Communism. So, am I right to feel that America is becoming more like the former Soviet Union, while Russia seems to becoming more free now that the Orthodox Church is free once again? Is there a connection here? Doesn't Christ and His Holy Church set us free to become truly human, truly alive in Christ?

[Philothei]

I am verbal more too. That is the reason I make so many grammatical and spelling mistakes but still I do not let that bother me... or turn me off. Elizabeth I appriciate you took the time to respond I am sure other people feel that way too. I come here less frequent than I used to since I do not have the time, but still participate. I know that communication fails sometime and othertimes I plain out disagree but I found that I enjoy the fellowship and the information I get from this forum.

God bless,
Philothei

[Philothei]

lol... Aria ...^_^ You said all this in one whole breath? I try to imagine you speaking this....:cool: cool!!

And by the way it is only in this country it is everywhere nowadays... even in Russia too :(


God bless,
Philothei

[Xpycoctomos]

This again makes my point, John, I didn't say anything to even imply that I haven't learned anything, and yet you read it into my post.

By 'waste of time' my direct meaning was that I am writing and thinking that I am communicating something when in reality we are talking past each other, and that can be because one, both, or all of the people involved do not want to hear what the others are saying - especially because of hidden operating assumptions.

I also mean that perhaps there are other things some of us should be doing instead of this. Opportunities for sin abound, even in typing here. By offending others, running away from duties in the world or simply indulging computer addiction are a few examples. But for now I think my main point is the one to focus on because it is one that is the most difficult to even become aware of - the indoctrination is hidden.

(Edit - Just to say publicly that Aria's last post added some very good points to what I have been driving at.)
Ru, then I would suggest that this is not a waste of time. At least for me, waste of time says "there's no purpose to this". And If I am learning something, then I just can't consider it a waste of time. Remember that we aren't you and you aren't me and I am not Aria and so on. We all take words and expressions in different ways. Just becuase we speak the same tongue doesn't mean we speak the same idiom :)

Also, I didn't make a blanket assumption on what you were saying. I was confused as to waht exactly you were trying to say by your post so... I asked questions and offered disclaimers.

I think in applying your OP to my post, it SEEMS to me that you are over-extending the usefulness of your observation. It's not always simply that one is reading over important parts of a post becuase deep down inside they only want to argue or don't really want to udnerstand. Sometimes, it's just a mistake. Sometimes the OP isn't clear enough for some readers and is even just purely inadequate (not yours). Yet other times, as I mentioned above, we understand things in different ways.

It is in the very nature of a forum with so many diverse people from diverse backgrounds that we aren't gong to udnerstand each other without making some mistakes along the way. That's why we have threads and not simply four boxes for any one thread to voer the OP, response and quesiton, answer, final response. It's important to hash stuff out and some need it more than others.

Forums aren't for everyone. Some people can't deal as well with the initial frustration of not being understood off the bat as they would be in a real conversation or having to explain themselves in more than one or two ways. I feel that way sometimes about myself. But other people are not only good at that... they also benefit from it.

As has been said in here, forums are so different from conversations (kind of your point, at least in part). How often do we express our opinion and have to be ready for ANYONE and EVERYONE to comment on it? In a conversation, we know how to direct and express our opinion becuase we have a specific audience in mind. On top of it, we generally tend to talk about issues to others that already understand it and, many time, to those who at least PARTLY agree with us.

In a forum we know our audience is MOSTLY Orthodox... and that's it. Nationality, age, gender, jurisdiction, religious past, more or not as traditional, divorced, married, living with various disabilities, race; that's all out the window... completely. And we expect people to understand where we're coming from after only a few posts? Sometimes that's logical... but not always.

So, I agree with your OP and it has made me think a LOT about my ownself on especially one major issue in my life over the past week. But, it can be overused and that's all I want to warn against.

John

[rusmeister]

Sorry for littering your thread, Rus. I have no pertinent knowledge of the OP or education so I'll just unsubscribe.

Please note, D+A (Keep wanting to call you FS), that I was talking about the education thread there, not this thread.

If you have any thoughtful comments on communication failures, and especially the phenomenon of talking past each other, you're welcome to weigh in!


Please please please note that the only thing I consider anathema is not troubling to read what is being said and referred to, and yet jumping in with opinions. You DON'T have to be an expert - my posting is largely aimed at non-experts, and there are very few things that I think I know enough about to qualify as one. Russia, foreign language learning, public education, teaching are my fortes - I'm sure in sales, programming, psychology, etc, I'd really look like a doofus to a professional if I went around spouting opinions as if I knew a lot about these things.

[elizabethevangeline]

It is in the very nature of a forum with so many diverse people from diverse backgrounds that we aren't gong to udnerstand each other without making some mistakes along the way. That's why we have threads and not simply forboxes for an OP, response and quesiton, answer, final response. It's important to hash stuff out.

I agree. Though hashing stuff out in writing-coming to a foundational understanding of one another before even getting to the topic at hand, can be very frustrating to me-it just takes so much time & energy, especially compared to my IRL conversations, where body-language, inflection, intuition, etc. are used. I know I'm not saying anything new here-just adding my 2 cents and run-on thots. :)

[rusmeister]

Lots of good posts! (I can't keep up with this much intelligence suddenly and unexpectedly flowing in! Aaaaagh!)

Elizabeth - thanks! You've made me feel better!

Aria - When we are preached at and given the politically correct ideas, then it becomes a dictatorship of the masses or mind control. That is the system we had under Communism. So, am I right to feel that America is becoming more like the former Soviet Union, while Russia seems to becoming more free now that the Orthodox Church is free once again?
Not sure to what extent it is connected to the Church revival, but otherwise, RIGHT ON!!! Yes, you guys are becoming a lot less free over there in real terms, while here, vse mozhno, krome togo, shto nel'zya (All is permitted, except that which is forbidden). My last trip to the States, I got interrogated (the only one out of a planeful of foreigners - Germans and Turks) mainly because I live in Russia (but at the time had to declare perm res in the states). I never felt so much like I was entering the Soviet Union, even in 1991 (when I did) as when I was entering my own bloody country! But that's only anecdotal evidence, a symptom. In any event, whatever the cause, I would say you are right and your statement is on target.

Philothei - thanks for your thoughtful responses - again, the one thing I will confidently assert is that children who spend 13 years, 6-7 hrs a day, 5 days a week in public school are effectively indoctrinated. Awareness of it can help combat it, but for pastors (priests) that are barely aware of that particular problem, fighting it can be a bit much, and I think that may be why the Orthodox Church does not have more clearly formed teachings on modern philosophies such as feminism - but I don't think it's necessarily a huge failure n the part of the Church, either. I am willing to an extent to make allowances for simple mistakes (Does that communicate anything regarding your concerns?).

John - your points are good and I largely agree. I sometimes suck at clarity. (Rapidly running out of time)

Elizabeth's last response was good, too, but I think the body language problem is 'out in the open' sufficiently. That's why I'm trying to put more of a spotlight on hidden assumptions.

[Thekla]

Russia, foreign language learning, public education, teaching are my fortes -

ooh, sorry - I'm gonna drag off topic, but I can't help it !

Do you know much about Lev Vygotsky ? I've read a bit ( and made my son read him for homeschool as a senior). I rather like some of his ideas, including the idea that education is "social action". I think that notion fits somewhat in this thread.

His "template" can be applied to "how societies" learn, perhaps. Also, I find it rather interesting to see how his ideas have been "implemented"
in the US educational system (in reading programs with testing through computers - the only example I've run across).

Tracking how anything one "knows about" is approached, described and used in mass culture can be a valuable tool in analysing one's culture.

[Xpycoctomos]

Ru, can you start up that Education forum again? I didn't participate last time becuase, quite frankly, I didn't feel like reading a long article. But now that I've been teaching for a short while, I kind of care agbout the issue more. As time allows, I would love to read it and respond (but not in this thread.) if there's anything to respond to or ask or whatever.

John

[Xpycoctomos]

Things that go BUMP in the night.

[Thekla]

one more thing rusmeister -

we often don't see the fruit of what God has asked us to do ... the fruit ripens in its own time :)

I'm a slow thinker. On the internet, that often means silence ... and some ideas are just too interesting to allow me to proceed at a reasonable pace. I still haven't finished any books by one of my favorite fiction authors. I've started five ... finally named a cat after the author's nom de plume, so I might get to finish one

[rusmeister]

ooh, sorry - I'm gonna drag off topic, but I can't help it !

Do you know much about Lev Vygotsky ? I've read a bit ( and made my son read him for homeschool as a senior). I rather like some of his ideas, including the idea that education is "social action". I think that notion fits somewhat in this thread.

His "template" can be applied to "how societies" learn, perhaps. Also, I find it rather interesting to see how his ideas have been "implemented"
in the US educational system (in reading programs with testing through computers - the only example I've run across).

Tracking how anything one "knows about" is approached, described and used in mass culture can be a valuable tool in analysing one's culture.
I did have to read a couple of articles way back, but no in-depth knowledge was required. They made a much bigger deal of Dewey. I'll have to go back and read some, take what I know now and synthesize and get back to you!

I do think that most big-shot theories and theorists are trouble, though. They get fame because they express something that's really true (sometimes wrapped in tons of BS). Problem is, the theory is applied in accordance with the prevaling ideology. But let's drag that over to the ed thread.

[rusmeister]

Ru, can you start up that Education forum again? I didn't participate last time becuase, quite frankly, I didn't feel like reading a long article. But now that I've been teaching for a short while, I kind of care agbout the issue more. As time allows, I would love to read it and respond (but not in this thread.) if there's anything to respond to or ask or whatever.

John
Actually you can just go to the link I posted above and start reading. (I considered reposting the posts that are relevant in a separate thread - I don't want to make anyone 'wrong' - but doubt that there's much of a point.)

[rusmeister]

I do think one of the big pieces to the puzzle of how we can hold these contradictory and unexamined ideas is our schooling. Of course it's not the only piece, and it's not really universal. But it sure plays a BIG role, given that we go to school for 6-8 hours a day, 5 days a week for 13 years - at the most formative hours and years of our lives.

S those that agree that this might be a factor are encouraged to look here:
http://www.christianforums.com/t3198103

I think this even forms what the media puts in front of us (where did those media executives spend their formative years?), so think it is the number one cause.