Did God intend the church to have seperate denominations?

[TransformedByGrace]

I would like to hear your guys views on the church separating into denominations.

[EmperorConstantine]

Of the devil.

[Solidlyhere]

"Did God intend the church to have separate denominations?"

I guess God DID want separate Denominations.
If not, we would not have them.

In Christianity, there is a Denomination for every type of Christian.
Baptists are there for people who don't believe in Miracles.
Church of Christ is there for people who DO.
The Lutherans are there for Protestants who wish they were Catholics (just kidding).
And, all Denominations believe in their Pastor getting married.

Doctrine is powerful stuff. A little change can upset MANY people. A lot of Christians have a very clear idea of what they believe. They don't want to hear opposing viewpoints being declared by their Pastor. So, they go to a Worship center where they don't hear things they don't believe.

Even in the earliest Church times, different Preachers taught different Doctrine.
Denominations started because people were tired of having to abide by the "divine" interpretations of the Pope. So, even if every Denomination was dis-created, people would re-start Denominations soon enough.

[minasoliman]

To say that God intended to have denominations is like saying God intended man to sin. There is nothing more desirable than to rid the world of death, sin, corruption, and separations (like denominations). Sometimes denominations occur on things so minuscule, that it makes me wonder if people enjoy causing more pain to Christianity in the face of a critical world.

God bless.

[EmperorConstantine]

To say that God intended to have denominations is like saying God intended man to sin. There is nothing more desirable than to rid the world of death, sin, corruption, and separations (like denominations). Sometimes denominations occur on things so minuscule, that it makes me wonder if people enjoy causing more pain to Christianity in the face of a critical world.
Westerners are too busy throwing rocks at each other to make any real, heartfelt positive effect on the world.

One thing that I love about Orthodoxy is how much the Orientals and Eastern Orthodox get along so well. Pascha in Jerusalem is a great example.

[Solidlyhere]

Minasolimon isn't happy with Denominations: "To say that God intended to have denominations is like saying God intended man to sin."

So, I guess the St. Mina Coptic Orthodox Church is just another form of sin. Is that right?

Why don't don't you worship in the Roman Catholic Church, if you don't believe in Denominations?

Answer: Each person (in a Denomination) assumes that if there were only ONE Church, it would be his particular Denomination. Ha Ha. If the world were only so simple.

[EmperorConstantine]

Please do not throw rocks at those that have never touched one.

[Solidlyhere]

Say, EmperorConstantine, who are you talking to?

You posted 2 similar messages into a row about throwing rocks. Who is throwing rocks?

"Please do not throw rocks at those that have never touched one."
And this one immediately after that one:
"Westerners are too busy throwing rocks at each other."

It seems that you are throwing some rocks yourself, by not making it clear who you are criticizing.

[EmperorConstantine]

Say, EmperorConstantine, who are you talking to?

You posted 2 similar messages into a row about throwing rocks. Who is throwing rocks?

"Please do not throw rocks at those that have never touched one."
And this one immediately after that one:
"Westerners are too busy throwing rocks at each other."

It seems that you are throwing some rocks yourself, by not making it clear who you are criticizing.
The second line about Westerners was about how Baptists, Presbyterians, non-denoms, Anglicans, Roman Catholics, Methodists, Seventh Days, etc etc; do nothing but bicker amongst themselves criticizing each other constantly.

The first line was directed at you and how you responded way to sarcastically, in-your-face-like and overall plainly rude to Minasolimon.


The first line you bolded, was a suggestion. The second was a commentary.

[Solidlyhere]

EmperorConstantine is the avenging angel: "The first line was directed at you and how you responded way to sarcastically, in-your-face-like and overall plainly rude to Minasolimon."

I simply responded to Minasolimon's put-down to having Denominations.
I was pointing out that he serves in a Denomination.
If you think it was "overall plainly rude" then that's your opinion.
If Minasolimon thought it was a put-down, he would respond.

In your method, though, you throw-out a put-down, and don't even say who it's directed at.
This is a sneaky way to stick-it to someone, but do it in secret. A no-no, to my mind.

Second, how do you know that Minasolimon has never thrown a rock?
I think your response to my statement was inappropriate.
If you think MY statement was over-the-top, how can you sleep at night, when you stuff-it to me like you do: "how you responded way too sarcastically, in-your-face-like and overall plainly rude."
Boy, when you get going, you get going.

[minasoliman]

Hi Solidlyhere,

I hope we can calm down and share our views. Here are my own:

Christianity is a religion, just as Islam or Judaism or Buddhism. Now, does God wish for different religions to exist? No. He wishes all to come to one truth, that is Christianity. Likewise, just because I'm part of a denomination doesn't mean I'm part of a sin.

To me, denomination stems from separation, and that is not what God intended. To separate the Body of Christ is pretty much to me something equivalent to "Hades prevailing against the gates of the Church", which is something Christ promised will not happen. So, either there is a true denomination as well as a true religion, or I am going to be lead to agnosticism/atheism, which is pretty much what happens. I am never a believer in pluralism, whether it be a pluralism in religions or in denominations.

Everyone is free to believe what they want, but one is not free to believe something and call himself something that he is not. If I am a believer in God, I can and should never associate myself with atheists. Since I am a faithful Orthodox Christian, and for Orthodox Christians, we do believe in "One True Church," I cannot associate myself with other beliefs that consider other denominations to be "okay" and "God-intended".

Don't get me wrong here. I don't condemn you or anyone else to Hell for doing so because I'm not the judge. But I do condemn inconsistency. I'm only being consistent and true to myself. Just as a Baptist condemns sacraments, then they should also be consistent with themselves. Pluralism is inconsistency.

God bless.

[Solidlyhere]

Minasoliman, you seem to me to be talking in opposites.
Let's go over some of your thoughts: "To separate the Body of Christ is pretty much to me something equivalent to "Hades prevailing against the gates of the Church", which is something Christ promised will not happen."

If you believe Jesus promised it won't happen, then it hasn't happened. So, the Body of Christ is NOT like Hades prevailing.
It may seem like it to you, but it couldn't possibly be True. Do you agree? That Jesus isn't a Liar?

"So, either there is a true denomination as well as a true religion, or I am going to be lead to agnosticism/atheism."
Why is this True for you? Do you want to become an atheist?
How would you ever know if there is ONE True Denomination?
I don't care if there is a True Denomination; and either way I am going to remain a believer in Christ.

"If I am a believer in God, I can and should never associate myself with atheists."
If that is your belief, then stick to it.
But, what kind of a job do you have? to not work with any atheists?
If your next-door neighbor was an atheist, you would never talk with him?
How do you know if the grocery store checker is a Christian?

I am happy to associate with anyone that God has decided to put in my path.
If a person is an atheist, I will not get into many Spiritual talks with him.
Jesus talks about loving every person, atheist or not.
Jesus talks about helping people not of your religion (Good Samaritan).
You act as you feel God is leading you. I will do the same.

"Don't get me wrong here. I don't condemn you or anyone else to Hell ... But I do condemn inconsistency."
I'm not sure what you mean by this.

[minasoliman]

Dear Solidlyhere,

I think you're misunderstanding me. If one reads and understands ancient Church history, one can try to stick with what history teaches us and not repeat it. I've studied enough of the historical background to reach a satisfying conclusion at where I am and what I feel the true denomination would be.

If you believe Jesus promised it won't happen, then it hasn't happened. So, the Body of Christ is NOT like Hades prevailing.Please reread what I wrote. I did not say the "Body of Christ" is like "Hades prevailing." I said "separating" the Body of Christ, which is the Church is like Hades prevailing against the Church. To make denominations and saying that all denominations are acceptable to me makes it seem like indeed that Hades has prevailed against the Church.

It may seem like it to you, but it couldn't possibly be True. Do you agree? That Jesus isn't a Liar?Well, of course Jesus isn't a liar, and I do not accept that you can just be part of any denomination. I believe there is one true Church, a true denomination, which was pre-denominational to begin with. I am part of an ancient, unchanging tradition started by the Apostles themselves. That is what I chose. Otherwise, if I believe in denominational pluralism, I would call Christ a liar.

Why is this True for you? Do you want to become an atheist?I mentioned why it's true to me. I did the research, I read the Bible, studied history, and questioned myself and my beliefs. No, I do not want to become an atheist. Things are not about what you want, but about what is the Truth, whether or not you want it.

How would you ever know if there is ONE True Denomination?I personally struggled how I would ever know if there is ONE true religion. I personally struggled with and looked through other beliefs, debated, researched, fell into despair. But it takes a lot of soul searching, being honest with yourself, consistency, and most importantly PRAYER. No one can convert you except God Himself.

I don't care if there is a True Denomination; and either way I am going to remain a believer in Christ.See, this is the problem. You already made up your mind, which is why you take offense at the things that I say. I've had pluralist friends. They've taken offense when I tell them "There's only one way to the Father, and that is through Christ." You should discern in yourself between what you want to believe, and what is the Truth.

"If I am a believer in God, I can and should never associate myself with atheists."
If that is your belief, then stick to it.
But, what kind of a job do you have? to not work with any atheists?
If your next-door neighbor was an atheist, you would never talk with him?
How do you know if the grocery store checker is a Christian?I'm terribly sorry for the ambiguous language, which is not what you thought I meant.

When I say "I should never associate myself with atheists," it does not mean "I should never have atheist friends" or "I should never buy anything from an atheist." That is so far from what I am saying. What I am saying is that I shouldn't call myself an atheist or consider myself as an atheist. An atheist will believe in no God. I should never associate myself with that belief, or as part of a group with that belief. If I am a Christian who believes there is one true denomination, then I should not consider myself someone of other denominations. That doesn't mean I should not talk to them or alienate myself from them.

Neither am I saying to be a racist or a bigot. I am to love everyone as myself. If I am a Republican, why should I support Democratic reforms or ideas. I have democratic friends, but I'm anti-Democratic. Do you now understand what I'm saying, or did I confuse you more. :)

I am happy to associate with anyone that God has decided to put in my path.
If a person is an atheist, I will not get into many Spiritual talks with him.
Jesus talks about loving every person, atheist or not.
Jesus talks about helping people not of your religion (Good Samaritan).
You act as you feel God is leading you. I will do the same.Amen, my brother.

"Don't get me wrong here. I don't condemn you or anyone else to Hell ... But I do condemn inconsistency."
I'm not sure what you mean by this.The common misconception of my views is that if anyone is not part of my Church, that anyone outside the Church will go to Hell. While we believe that anyone outside the Church is "not saved," that does not mean anyone outside the Church gets a one-way ticket to eternal damnation. There are those in our Church that do not deserve to even be called Christian, and there are those outside the Church, who even atheists, are more Christian, more Orthodox than me. Therefore, I like to be consistent and true to myself to find a sure Church, but not to judge others, when I should be concerned most with my own spiritual life, which is why I like to consider the Church as a hospital for a sick and sinful person like myself.

While I am shaky with this quote, I think it's appropriate to use it:

"We know where the Church is; we don't know where it isn't." (HE Metropolitan Kallistos Ware, The Orthodox Church)

God bless you. :)

[pgp_protector]

I'd say God allowed it.
God Allowed Kings, but He didn't want Kings.

[JAS4Yeshua]

I'd say God allowed it.
God Allowed Kings, but He didn't want Kings.
:amen: I agree with this.

I think it comes down to "God's permissive will" vs. "His perfect will." God wanted the church to be one in Him, not clingling to any one denomination or teaching, but to Him alone. He wanted us to reach the Lost for Him as One Body of believers. Instead, we have divided among ourselves, whether for good or for ill.

[minasoliman]

I'd say God allowed it.
God Allowed Kings, but He didn't want Kings.
I agree with this to the extent that we should learn from other denominations, and not shun them to a damned state. I put others above myself not to put myself down, but as a humbling point in my life, that I am no better than you or anyone else.

At the same time, while God permits things to happen, I know for sure that he does not permit the gates of Hades to prevail against His Church. On this faith I stand and I hold dearly too. It is my hope and my salvation and my love that I stick with the Church that heals my ailing soul.

God bless.

[Ravenonthecross]

Let us not quibble over denominations, but instead strive through prayer, and through careful discernment,and research into early church history as to how the church existed in the first several centuries and not only imitate it, but seek to find, and join such a church. For the Early Church existed prior to the major schisms of denominations and is predenominational. This being so, we are to seek as much as possible to join this church, and remain penitent, loving, charitable, and kind to all as members of Christ's Body. So if we do join the church as the early church is, we shall truly see Christ's body---ergo, His church before the major divisions, and strive to live in the ways that the Early Church was, because it was made the way Christ established and the Holy Ghost guided, therefore, it must be correct in truth, and thus we should strive with all our might to not only be apart of such a church as that which existed from three or four centuries of the church, but strive to fulfill Christ's commandments. It is probably most clearly exemplified in the early church as those Christians who lived most near to the New Testament Church, and were in fact that church, and of those who lived saintly lives as unique ways to live ( to live in the footsteps of Christ that is) as we strive on our journey unto obedience to our Lord Christ Jesus.
May the Blessed Trinity bless you, and have mercy on us all!
sincerely,
Ravenonthecross

[Mankin]

God allowed it just like he allows separate countries to be formed, but that does not mean he specifically cares for it. He knew that humans would have different opinions on Scripiture and how best to worship Him. I think that all denominations are slightly off in what is EXACTLY correct, but we will all worship and know Scripiture EXACTLY correct when we get to heaven. While I do think that there are some things that some other denominations have gotten incorrect, that does not narrow my view. We cannot know fully what God thinks, for he is All Might and All Powerful and we will never trully understand this until we get to heaven. God still blesses and accepts everyone from every denomation that is under Christ. :amen:

[Rhamiel]

I really like how the Catholic Church does it ( I assume there might be similar things in the Orthodox Churches) we have differant rites so that litergical differances and cultures can be respected, and in the Latin Rite we have the dominicans and franciscans and jesuits and a lot of other orders who each focus on a differant way of living the gospel

[EmperorConstantine]

I really like how the Catholic Church does it ( I assume there might be similar things in the Orthodox Churches) we have differant rites so that litergical differances and cultures can be respected, and in the Latin Rite we have the dominicans and franciscans and jesuits and a lot of other orders who each focus on a differant way of living the gospel
Two rites in Eastern Orthodoxy: normal (Eastern) and Western. The Western Rite's Liturgy was written in the 1920's based off of (I think) Anglican Liturgy.

Eastern Rite has four different Divine Liturgies (DL). DL of St. James which was written by St. James (yes, the Apostle). The DL of St. Basil (4th century), DL of St. John Chrysostom (4th or 5th century).

St. James's Liturgy is loooong and only done once a year on St. James's feast day except I think churches in Jerusalem use this Liturgy quite often. St. Basil's Liturgy is an abridged form of St. James's Liturgy lasting only, on average, two hours. St. John Chrysostom's Liturgy is usually about 90 minutes and is an abridged form of St. Basil's Liturgy.

The Divine Liturgy of Pre-sanctified Gifts is usually used during Lenten weekdays. St. John Chrysostom's Liturgy is used most of the year and St. Basil's is used on Sundays during Lent and a few other feast days.


The problem that I find with the Roman Catholic Church's different rites is that all the popes have been of the Latin Rite. Also the Eastern Rite Catholics are generally ignored amongst the Latin Rite users. Because the Eastern Catholics are ignored so much, I think that creates a bit of superiority for the Latin Rite. Just my thought.

[minasoliman]

Well, and then you got the OO Church, with the Coptic rite, the Armenian rite, the Syriac rite, the Celtic rite, the Ethiopian rite (similar to Coptic), and Western rite parishes part of the Malankara churches.

All these attest to the diversity in worship in Orthodox and Catholic Churches, the "ancient" churches. I think what we have in common in these rites was an ordered liturgical service, and that is one of the important issues of faith in an Orthodox Church. As an Orthodox Christian, one would find it disagreeable and actually wrong to not pray liturgies with a proper Eucharist to partake of. A Church without the Eucharist therefore is considered disastrous, which one can understand why the disapproval of denominations. If one considers that part of the faith and dogma that the Eucharist is essential, and other churches don't see the Eucharist as we do, then why include us in the fold of "acceptable churches" if you abhor the practice of Eucharist for example. In fact, we as Orthodox consider the Eucharist to be essential and very important. So, if other denominations consider it as "not important" (let alone wrong), you would have to exclude those churches that do consider it as important because we don't believe in "options."

God bless.

[Timyone]

"Did God intend the church to have separate denominations?"

I guess God DID want separate Denominations.
If not, we would not have them.

In Christianity, there is a Denomination for every type of Christian.
Baptists are there for people who don't believe in Miracles.
Church of Christ is there for people who DO.
The Lutherans are there for Protestants who wish they were Catholics (just kidding).
And, all Denominations believe in their Pastor getting married.

Doctrine is powerful stuff. A little change can upset MANY people. A lot of Christians have a very clear idea of what they believe. They don't want to hear opposing viewpoints being declared by their Pastor. So, they go to a Worship center where they don't hear things they don't believe.

Even in the earliest Church times, different Preachers taught different Doctrine.
Denominations started because people were tired of having to abide by the "divine" interpretations of the Pope. So, even if every Denomination was dis-created, people would re-start Denominations soon enough.

wow!!!!!! this statement doesnt seem to agree with any of the churches i know in Australia!!! im guessing theres a massive difference between here and where ever you are!!

[mont974x4]

No, denominations were not His design and IMO was addressed in 1 Cor 3.

I find the divisions quite sad. Instead of focusing on minor differences we need to focus on Him who unites us.

[crawfish]

I don't think division was ever part of God's plan for us. We have denominations now for the same reason God allowed divorce under the old law - because our hearts are hard.

I may not agree with everything every denomination teaches - some I oppose quite strongly, in fact - but I believe the mere act of dividing ourselves from other Christians based on those disagreements is displeasing to God. I'd much prefer to be your disagreeing brother than your sworn enemy. :)

[Don5925]

Without getting into the heavy theology of it all, I offer this:
What caused the 30,000 some denominations there is purported to be? In the case of the apostolic churches cries of heresy and politics caused the splits. But skip all of the first 1000 or so years of history and look at the other splits, mergers, and re-splits. It just doesn't seem logical to me that God's true hope was to have humanity celebrate the death and resurrection of his son in 30,000 (and growing/shrinking/growing) different ways. If we accept that God is all powerful, then sure he allowed it, but wanted it? Can't see it.

[SharonL]

Sorry - did not read the rules before posting - I should not be posting here.

[LeliAne]

Without getting into the heavy theology of it all, I offer this:
What caused the 30,000 some denominations there is purported to be? In the case of the apostolic churches cries of heresy and politics caused the splits. But skip all of the first 1000 or so years of history and look at the other splits, mergers, and re-splits. It just doesn't seem logical to me that God's true hope was to have humanity celebrate the death and resurrection of his son in 30,000 (and growing/shrinking/growing) different ways. If we accept that God is all powerful, then sure he allowed it, but wanted it? Can't see it.

I second this opinion!:amen:

[Hishandmaiden]

I don't know whether God wants denomination or not, but I do think He wants all of us to be different and yet united.

Unity in diversity.

Think of the garden of Eden.
There are many trees, and each produces fruits of its own kind.
So long as it is not the tree of good and evil, that deny Jesus as the savior, it is lovely, I think, in God's eyes. :)

[Everlasting]

Because Gods' will leads our paths, I would have to agree that seperate denominations became a part of Gods' church, and it's building. I think that contentions in the word, are what holds the church back, from evolved unity. We all must hold true that the New Testament is the key: The way to the Lord, is through Jesus Christ His son.

Everlasting


:crosseo:

Moon over Key Biscayne

:crossrc:

[Don5925]

I think the signature line for hishandmaiden pretty well puts things in the appropriate context. A student is not above the teacher not servant above the master.

I guess we just need to agree on who the original teacher(s)were as well as the master. Don

[MoNiCa4316]

I don't think this was a part of God's plan (but..who knows?), but we can all have unity by loving one another. We are already united by being in Christ.

[LivingWordUnity]

Jesus (God in the flesh) wills the following:

“that they may be one, even as we [Jesus and the Father] are one” (John 17:11)
“that they may all be one” (John 17:21)
“that they may be one” (John 17:22)
“that they may become perfectly one” (John 17:23)

Do you see a pattern? Here's more...

"I urge you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree in what you say, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and in the same purpose." (1 Cor. 1:10)

"One Lord, one faith, one Baptism." (Eph. 4:5)

[MoNiCa4316]

LivingWordUnity, how do you interpret "one faith"?
I think that faith is what we believe in and trust, not our opinions or views. We all put our trust in Jesus, even if we belong to different denominations....so I think we all have 'one faith'. Also, I believe we can only come to God because He is calling us, so the faith of all Christians comes from the Holy Spirit, and we are united in Christ. So I don't think that different denominations have different faiths.
Anyway, I don't think it's possible for human beings to all have the same opinions about everything. But if we love one another as Jesus told us to, then we wouldn't let differences of opinion become divisions. (I'm talking about disputable matters, like in Romans 14, not basic doctrine that's in the Bible. If someone doesn't believe in the Resurrection, for example, it's no longer a mere difference of opinion but a mistake, and we should try to help the person - with love).

What do you think? :)


God bless


monica

[mont974x4]

We have one faith and it comes from Him, the author and perfector of faith. We just exercise that faith in diferent ways. This isn't necessarily a bad thing and is in no way limiting His work in us and through us.

[Spiritofprophecy]

Greetings in the name of Jesus:

God is Omnipotent; and all things work towards the Glorification of God or bringing in the Kingdom.

Denominations are and must Be Gods Intent for man; And through man Gods eventual will shall be done. His word shall not return void, but shall accomplish Gods will.

But God is using Sin and evil of men to bring about Gods end.

I use the rotten fruit example: Only man can without Jesus become " rotten fruit" And God gives choice to man to be rotten:.

But Knowing our choice of faith or rotten. God then places all trees and fruits to rot as God so chooses, that the rotten fruit and faithful, can both work together to bring about Gods will for man. God allows the evil of men to rot and fall where God so chooses, that the stench of mans evil smell of rotten fruit, may motivate and move man to where God so chooses. And denominations are part of Gods rotten fruit of the Church of God, Which is " precepts of man" Isaiah 29;13.

Example is Judas, and Hitler, God Knows of the evil of men, and uses this evil to instruct men in future of what evil does. And all men have evil and darkness, but how much light and passion for Gods truths do men have.
Hitlers result, pushed Jews to return to israel.

I hope I have not confused the issue, and angered or offended any by my opinion based in Understanding of Gods words.

I pray the peace of God upon C.F. and all who use it.