A Church I wish I could find.

[JeffTheLearner]

You know I have felt bad lately about not going to church, yet every place I go does not fit what a church, as Christ at the Head should be. Every “inspired” preacher seems at best incomplete. Within the congregation those who are deemed as pillars seem as the same as those who would stab you in the back for a promotion at work. All the programs to minister to people seems like I’m being rushed to help others and yet I have a log in my eye. Also when I go to Sunday school I feel like I’m learning more on how to compromise scripture then fulfill it.

I want to go to church, yet things seem so wrong and corrupt.

But it made me think,
Is there anyone on else out there who wants the same?

A place where there is no one standing behind a pulpit ready to speak the message of the day, just students with One Teacher. A place where Jesus is the Teacher, and we are the students working on putting His Word on our hearts. Where there is no need for a minister at Head because all support each other and are working toward the same goal and are true Head is seated at the right hand of the Father. A place that is not just a fancy building where people attend on Sundays and Wednesdays. But a literal home where people don’t just gather but live as a family, being like true brothers and sisters. Not a weird cult, but just a bunch of students working in one goal, putting Gods Word in our hearts. Where people praise God with Holy Words, with Mana that came down from heaven, His Words, Psalms of praise etched on all the hearts of those who sing out, and proclaim in joy. Where fellowship with God has nothing to do with the approval of the pastor, but like a journey to the same place sought by all who are in the same boat guided by the same Captain, The Only Begotten. I want to go to a place where Gods Word is Teacher, and as a student I do what I’m commanded to, and encouraged by others doing the same, putting His Word in my Heart, letting Christ into my heart in the most literal sense. Elders being the ones who have accomplished this task, the task of the Gospel, those equipped with the full armor of the Word, which is of God.:thumbsup:

I was wondering if anyone out there taught of the Word thinks this is too far fetched.
Also,
Does anyone else wish there was a place like this?
Is there a place like this?
Are there any out there aside from myself that wishes to put the Word of God on there hearts, and not just all the likable scriptures, but the Whole Gospel, of which is said we RENEW our minds with?
…and if so, do you find yourself with some of the same problems as I do in doing this, and such a place being a great help?

I know what I need to do, but I need help. As for the churches of the norm, they seem as if they are more of a distraction in this task, then a help.

Let me know what you think.

***(Please add in answer, if you care about putting the Word in your heart, or not.)***
-Thanks! Jeff ;)

[carlos123]

Certainly I care and want to put the Word in my heart Jeff. For sure.

I would like to comment on your idea of church Jeff if I might. Have you been following the thread on "No Church"? You might want to read it.

Let me just say that your idea of church sounds more Scriptural to me than most Sunday churches that I know.

If you were in my area (Edmonton, Alberta in Canada) I would say let's get together and make happen what God wants. Together.

Many just can't fathom a paradigm of church that does not include a church building. Many hearts are hardened to the things of God and more prone to defend what is comfortable rather than what is God's.

Religious folks are the worst and they will resist and persecute those who follow after God's heart.

What you want will not be easy to find if you can even find it. I have experienced it before so I can tell you that is most definitely possible. But extremely rare.

My intention at present is to see if the Lord will bless an attempt on my part to start a church modeled after what they had in the New Testament.

I have not found any such church around me and in talking to a wonderful pastor friend and other Christians it seems best to start something new.

Just my two cents worth.

Feel free to email me and talk anytime.

Carlos

[bithiah2]

You know I have felt bad lately about not going to church, yet every place I go does not fit what a church, as Christ at the Head should be. Every “inspired” preacher seems at best incomplete. Within the congregation those who are deemed as pillars seem as the same as those who would stab you in the back for a promotion at work. All the programs to minister to people seems like I’m being rushed to help others and yet I have a log in my eye. Also when I go to Sunday school I feel like I’m learning more on how to compromise scripture then fulfill it.

I want to go to church, yet things seem so wrong and corrupt.

But it made me think,
Is there anyone on else out there who wants the same?

A place where there is no one standing behind a pulpit ready to speak the message of the day, just students with One Teacher. A place where Jesus is the Teacher, and we are the students working on putting His Word on our hearts. Where there is no need for a minister at Head because all support each other and are working toward the same goal and are true Head is seated at the right hand of the Father. A place that is not just a fancy building where people attend on Sundays and Wednesdays. But a literal home where people don’t just gather but live as a family, being like true brothers and sisters. Not a weird cult, but just a bunch of students working in one goal, putting Gods Word in our hearts. Where people praise God with Holy Words, with Mana that came down from heaven, His Words, Psalms of praise etched on all the hearts of those who sing out, and proclaim in joy. Where fellowship with God has nothing to do with the approval of the pastor, but like a journey to the same place sought by all who are in the same boat guided by the same Captain, The Only Begotten. I want to go to a place where Gods Word is Teacher, and as a student I do what I’m commanded to, and encouraged by others doing the same, putting His Word in my Heart, letting Christ into my heart in the most literal sense. Elders being the ones who have accomplished this task, the task of the Gospel, those equipped with the full armor of the Word, which is of God.:thumbsup:

I was wondering if anyone out there taught of the Word thinks this is too far fetched.
Also,
Does anyone else wish there was a place like this?
Is there a place like this?
Are there any out there aside from myself that wishes to put the Word of God on there hearts, and not just all the likable scriptures, but the Whole Gospel, of which is said we RENEW our minds with?
…and if so, do you find yourself with some of the same problems as I do in doing this, and such a place being a great help?

I know what I need to do, but I need help. As for the churches of the norm, they seem as if they are more of a distraction in this task, then a help.

Let me know what you think.

***(Please add in answer, if you care about putting the Word in your heart, or not.)***
-Thanks! Jeff ;)

i believe that if we really seek God, He will lead us to where we are supposed to be, at any given time, IF we are open to His leading. i agree that there are many churches that don't do what they are called to do, pastors are not perfect, some are hirelings, and as long as human beings are involved, there will always be something missing until Christ comes back for us. in Psalms 138:8 the Bible says that God will perfect that which concerns us, which means that He is working on all of us. we don't go to church looking for everything to be right, but hopefully in a congregation where most of the people are trying to please God, we can all inspire and exhort each other to do better.
the church i have been blessed to be a part of has shown me this, and although it is far from perfect i can say that every message i have heard there has been beneficial to my life, and is soley the Word of God, just as you describe. so...again i believe if you really seek God's will, He will lead you to where you are supposed to be, whether it is a small church, a study group, a fellowship, a house church, or even a big church. i don't know. but God knows what is best for you.:groupray:
blessings,
bithiah2
be encouraged

[Giver]

First I believe a Christian church is made up of people who are following Jesus. All have been baptized and as Peter said: (Acts 2:38-39) “Peter answered ‘and everyone of you must be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise that was made is for you and your children, and for al those who are far away, for all those whom the Lord our God will call to himself.”

I also believe a everyone should be equals. Not only that, but also all possessions should be jointly owned. No one should call anything they use his or hers.

If everyone walked in the gifts of the Holy Spirit then the person whom the Holy Spirit would choose would give the teachings. Also because we are human even when we think were giving the message given to us by the Holy Spirit, we make mistakes. So we need people with the gifts of discernment to make sure false the body does not accept teaching.

[sebastian]

With all respect, church is run by people, and a fact you will have to accept is that this will never change, start your own church if you feel that is what God is calling you to do but corrupt and incomplete is what it will be. You can't escape this fact I'm afraid, not this side of heaven.
Another thing I would say is that church isn't about you finding a nice place, it's about you joining in, getting dirty, blood sweat and tears making it a better place. I think you should take your idas to a church and join in, serve that church 100% and try to make it closer to God's church than mans.
That's what church is to me.

[Artificial Intelligence]

Well as they say, ‘find the perfect Church and once you enter it, it is no longer perfect’. One needs to walk before they can fly.

[StevenL]

No Jeff, it isn't too far fetched. It's actually what we were "called out" (ekklesia - the word badly translated as 'church') to do. Most of us are raised so steeped in church tradition that we will always feel "guilty" for not "going to church" (and many other church laws) just because it is ingrained (brainwashed) into our psyche.

If you're blessed to be in fellowship with some other Members of the Body who can assemble like you're describing (the scriptural way), you're very fortunate indeed. Most aren't.

[JeffTheLearner]

carlos123Certainly I care and want to put the Word in my heart Jeff. For sure.

I would like to comment on your idea of church Jeff if I might. Have you been following the thread on "No Church"? You might want to read it.

Let me just say that your idea of church sounds more Scriptural to me than most Sunday churches that I know.

If you were in my area (Edmonton, Alberta in Canada) I would say let's get together and make happen what God wants. Together.

Many just can't fathom a paradigm of church that does not include a church building. Many hearts are hardened to the things of God and more prone to defend what is comfortable rather than what is God's.

Religious folks are the worst and they will resist and persecute those who follow after God's heart.

What you want will not be easy to find if you can even find it. I have experienced it before so I can tell you that is most definitely possible. But extremely rare.

My intention at present is to see if the Lord will bless an attempt on my part to start a church modeled after what they had in the New Testament.

I have not found any such church around me and in talking to a wonderful pastor friend and other Christians it seems best to start something new.

Just my two cents worth.

Feel free to email me and talk anytime.

Carlos

Thanks Carlos, If I was near by in Canada I would love to fellowship with you.

I'm glad you may know what I'm talking about.
I can write it as plain as day, and they still wont know what I'm talking about, Ive said it in many ways... you may know.

As for being baptized in the NAME of Jesus Christ,

"I will bow down toward Your holy templeAnd give thanks to Your name for Your lovingkindness and Your Truth; For YOU HAVE MAGNIFIED YOUR WORD ACCORDING TO ALL YOUR NAME." Psalm 138:2 (NASB)

Another favorite:
"He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and HIS NAME IS CALLED The WORD of God." Rev 19:13 (NASB)

Anyways, you can E-mail me anytime. :)

[Artificial Intelligence]

No Jeff, it isn't too far fetched. It's actually what we were "called out" (ekklesia - the word badly translated as 'church') to do. Most of us are raised so steeped in church tradition that we will always feel "guilty" for not "going to church" (and many other church laws) just because it is ingrained (brainwashed) into our psyche.

If you're blessed to be in fellowship with some other Members of the Body who can assemble like you're describing (the scriptural way), you're very fortunate indeed. Most aren't.Heh so in other words, those that go to Church are in error. Is that why we see God raise up so many people that don’t attend a Church to very great achievements… *trying to think of one*… compared to someone like Billy Graham that has preached the gospel to more people than anyone has ever done in history… even more people than Jesus did himself? But Billy is a Church going dude, so in error; not really one of the “fortunate”. Poor Billy…

Fly, Billy, fly!

[StevenL]

Those who "go to church" are just following a man-made routine that is completely outside the scriptural model. Error? People can do anything they want socially. But to create an institution, command people to belong to it, claim that it is established by Jesus Himself, bind people to a ritualistic order not patterned after the original Testimony.......yep error.

[sebastian]

so what good are you doing to help the body of beleivers, what good do you do on your own to help the community, how do you get encouragement and also rebuking from other beleivers without attending a church?
only diamonds can cut diamonds, your needed by other christians and you in turn need them.

[JeffTheLearner]

I'm not Born of God, if I was I would not be seeking to be Born of the Word. I would "no longer" sin according to scripture, and HIS WORK if I was.

I will do nothing but learn,
I have a log in my eye, why should I go around pointing out specks in the eyes of others.

Ive done it before, Ive learnt I was wrong.
I want support from people seeking the same thing, and being the lowest of them does not matter. The fellowship of those seeking the Power of the Gospel. The Word Inplanted which is able to save our souls.

I only try to speak of what I have been taught.

[sebastian]

I have a log in my eye, why should I go around pointing out specks in the eyes of others.
that verse refers to being critical. you are needed in church to be part of that process of learning to then in turn teach. what good is the aquisition of knowledge if it cannot be shared or applied?
if anyone tells you that you are the lowest, they are wrong.
I dunno how else to put this, but I am in a church plant, we all pull together, side by side to build this church, every single person in our congregation is a blessing and we need them all, every one. I love them all and i'm dead proud of them all from my pastors and leadership team to the children and newly saved. they're my brothers and sisters and they all (pastors and children) teach me and correct me as i (pastors and children) teach and correct them. we all make mistakes at times and sometimes we are wrong but we work through it.
don't hide away from that, man, move to my country and join my church, we'd be grateful for you.

[StevenL]

so what good are you doing to help the body of beleivers, what good do you do on your own to help the community, how do you get encouragement and also rebuking from other beleivers without attending a church?
only diamonds can cut diamonds, your needed by other christians and you in turn need them.
All the activities mentioned can be accomplished without "attending a church".....hard as that is to believe. :)

In fact, if you strip away all the unscriptural activity and get to the real revealed purpose of the gathering of the holy people, you can accomplish them much more effectively.

[sebastian]

wait, you want to leave church so you can gather with christians and study the bible?

[Artificial Intelligence]

Those who "go to church" are just following a man-made routine that is completely outside the scriptural model. Error? People can do anything they want socially. But to create an institution, command people to belong to it, claim that it is established by Jesus Himself, bind people to a ritualistic order not patterned after the original Testimony.......yep error.Ahhh I had it wrong all this time, I can now go to a strip bar on Sunday and be filled with the Holy Spirits; make a difference…, hang out with the nude women and socialize with them in many different ways. Wow, anything! You can’t possibly refute that, right? I mean that would be “ t h e l a w”, right? Who are you to say I can’t? You are teaching to not go to Church, they are all in error that do and are suppose to be just doing what ever they want (besides going to Church), no accountability needed to anyone or anything, no need to get involved and practice ones faith, no need to follow the guidelines for being an Elder of a Church since there is no such Church to have Elders. I mean, that would be error, right? The Elders are suppose to have one wife and all that, so scripture must be in error… or we are all Elders of Church. Hey, I should tell the stripper that this Sunday, I’m an Elder of… something… err but I’ve never been married, any takers here? Darn LAW!

Anyway, I’m done replying to your posts here, you are taking this thread off topic and into an existing debate/discussion; we already have a no Church thread. No one flies unless they can learn to walk first, saying that people whom gather at Church is error, is a terrible error, indeed.

[StevenL]

Ahhh I had it wrong all this time, I can now go to a strip bar on Sunday and be filled with the Holy Spirits; make a difference…, hang out with the nude women and socialize with them in many different ways. Wow, anything! You can’t possibly refute that, right? I mean that would be “ t h e l a w”, right? Who are you to say I can’t? You are teaching to not go to Church, they are all in error that do and are suppose to be just doing what ever they want (besides going to Church), no accountability needed to anyone or anything, no need to get involved and practice ones faith, no need to follow the guidelines for being an Elder of a Church since there is no such Church to have Elders. I mean, that would be error, right? The Elders are suppose to have one wife and all that, so scripture must be in error… or we are all Elders of Church. Hey, I should tell the stripper that this Sunday, I’m an Elder of… something… err but I’ve never been married, any takers here? Darn LAW!

Anyway, I’m done replying to your posts here, you are taking this thread off topic and into an existing debate/discussion; we already have a no Church thread. No one flies unless they can learn to walk first, saying that people whom gather at Church is error, is a terrible error, indeed.
Why, you've learned to add to my words just like you have learned to add to God's Word.

Good work! :D

[StevenL]

wait, you want to leave church so you can gather with christians and study the bible?
Did that long ago. I finally actually began to learn what the Bible really said when I did that. I discoved the "reverends" really didn't know much about what they "preached." And....that the christians who gathered in such a manner had very little interest in what the Bible actually said.....only in performing the weekly ritual.

[carlos123]

Heh so in other words, those that go to Church are in error.


It is NOT going to a building as a church to gather that is in error! Sigh...why does it seem so hard for some to understand sometimes.....

It is the belief that, if you are not attending a Sunday gathering in a specific church building, that you are unchurched. That there is something wrong with you from a Christian perspective. That you are a lone ranger and more subject to deception than those that sit in a pew every Sunday and listen to a sermon.

It is the belief that church = Sunday gathering and attending that is in error.

Gathering in a building on Sunday is no more in error than my gathering with other Christians at a local coffee shop. It is not the outward meeting place that is the issue.

It is people attaching significance to the place of meeting that flies in the face of the Lord inhabiting and being with His people WHEREVER they happen to meet.

Sigh...

Carlos

[Artificial Intelligence]

It is NOT going to a building as a church to gather that is in error! Sigh...why does it seem so hard for some to understand sometimes.....

It is the belief that, if you are not attending a Sunday gathering in a specific church building, that you are unchurched. That there is something wrong with you from a Christian perspective. That you are a lone ranger and more subject to deception than those that sit in a pew every Sunday and listen to a sermon.

It is the belief that church = Sunday gathering and attending that is in error.

Gathering in a building on Sunday is no more in error than my gathering with other Christians at a local coffee shop. It is not the outward meeting place that is the issue.

It is people attaching significance to the place of meeting that flies in the face of the Lord inhabiting and being with His people WHEREVER they happen to meet.

Sigh...

Carlos
Sorry, but I just don’t see regular meetings of Christians going on at my local park or under the lifeguard tower at the beach. The building is not the issue, it’s just the excuse to not meet with the Church and be used. I mean come on’ people aren’t that dense. The building is just a building, but that is where we function from, it’s where we organize from; where we regularly meet. All this rhetoric is against any form of leadership or accountability, it’s nothing more. Sure, go to the coffee shop and sip your coffee and believe you are fulfilling your potential, you won’t convince me that the bible is in error about not forsaking that gathering of the Saints for a magazine off the rack. That’s what you preach though, but that is not what we are commanded. I’m telling you, that is where we gather, you just choose not to believe it and claim the Church meets elsewhere and that those who meet are in error (seeing you agree with him). So don’t gather with the Church so you can gather with the Church? You guys gotta have more logic in your brains than that, or are capable of it at least. *feels grumpy today* bleh outa here

[sebastian]

Quote:
Originally Posted by sebastian View Post
wait, you want to leave church so you can gather with christians and study the bible?
Did that long ago. I finally actually began to learn what the Bible really said when I did that. I discoved the "reverends" really didn't know much about what they "preached." And....that the christians who gathered in such a manner had very little interest in what the Bible actually said.....only in performing the weekly ritual.

so you really just started your own church. I think also your being very judgmental, how can you claim that all the people in churches don't care about the bible?

[mont974x4]

I have found that far too many Christians just want the "I showed up on Sunday morning" check mark and way too many Christians are biblically illiterate and are happy to be spoon fed.


We don't all have to agree on the non-essentials but we should be encouraging eachother to dig into the Word together and explore it together and learn and grow together.

[sebastian]

that happens. but not everywhere, church is what you make it, your part of it like it or not. and those people need examples to follow, maybe you all could be one if it is so impressed on your heart?

[LJSGM]

You know I have felt bad lately about not going to church, yet every place I go does not fit what a church, as Christ at the Head should be. Every “inspired” preacher seems at best incomplete. Within the congregation those who are deemed as pillars seem as the same as those who would stab you in the back for a promotion at work. All the programs to minister to people seems like I’m being rushed to help others and yet I have a log in my eye. Also when I go to Sunday school I feel like I’m learning more on how to compromise scripture then fulfill it.

I want to go to church, yet things seem so wrong and corrupt.

But it made me think,
Is there anyone on else out there who wants the same?

A place where there is no one standing behind a pulpit ready to speak the message of the day, just students with One Teacher. A place where Jesus is the Teacher, and we are the students working on putting His Word on our hearts. Where there is no need for a minister at Head because all support each other and are working toward the same goal and are true Head is seated at the right hand of the Father. A place that is not just a fancy building where people attend on Sundays and Wednesdays. But a literal home where people don’t just gather but live as a family, being like true brothers and sisters. Not a weird cult, but just a bunch of students working in one goal, putting Gods Word in our hearts. Where people praise God with Holy Words, with Mana that came down from heaven, His Words, Psalms of praise etched on all the hearts of those who sing out, and proclaim in joy. Where fellowship with God has nothing to do with the approval of the pastor, but like a journey to the same place sought by all who are in the same boat guided by the same Captain, The Only Begotten. I want to go to a place where Gods Word is Teacher, and as a student I do what I’m commanded to, and encouraged by others doing the same, putting His Word in my Heart, letting Christ into my heart in the most literal sense. Elders being the ones who have accomplished this task, the task of the Gospel, those equipped with the full armor of the Word, which is of God.:thumbsup:

I was wondering if anyone out there taught of the Word thinks this is too far fetched.
Also,
Does anyone else wish there was a place like this?
Is there a place like this?
Are there any out there aside from myself that wishes to put the Word of God on there hearts, and not just all the likable scriptures, but the Whole Gospel, of which is said we RENEW our minds with?
…and if so, do you find yourself with some of the same problems as I do in doing this, and such a place being a great help?

I know what I need to do, but I need help. As for the churches of the norm, they seem as if they are more of a distraction in this task, then a help.

Let me know what you think.

***(Please add in answer, if you care about putting the Word in your heart, or not.)***
-Thanks! Jeff ;)
I want this. Something real.

I believe that God is helping us make his spotless bride before he comes for us. You are evidence of it and many others that desire the "real" thing.

[mont974x4]

Sebastian, you're right..we should be examples. I believe we notice things like this so that we can get to work for His glory and the edification of the saints.

For example, I was asked to teach an adult Sunday School class. The first few months we just did east studies that got us in the practice of looking into the verses and researching the original meanings from the Greek or Hebrew. Later we started going through Matthew with no other study guides..using only the Bible and word study tools going verse by verse.


It's awesome to see God work in people and see them get hungry to study deeper and we have some great discussions.

To Him be the glory and may we all grow to be the men and women He has for us to be so that we do not boast in ourselves but in Christ our Lord and Savior and treasure.

[sebastian]

yeah that's cool, (what are east studies?) I think your spot on. people just need to be shown a little encouragement and the like.

[mont974x4]

That should have been "easy studies" sorry for the confusion from my typo.

I first used the 40-minute studies offered by Precept Ministries. They offer topical studies and have the text from the Bible right in the book. They ask you to go through and mark keywords and then answer questions (without much of their own opinion in them so you have to look at the passage in context and prayerfully come to your own conclusions with God's leading). The 40-Minute name is because they are 6 weeks of lessons that are about 40 minutes each. We did a few of those to get into the habit and moved on from there.

[sebastian]

That should have been "easy studies" sorry for the confusion from my typo.
ooooooooooooooooooooohh....:doh: :D
respect for the work you do man, it's great. it's the stuff that crowns are made of.

[mont974x4]

Thank you but it's all Him. Without His work in me I wouldn't care or take the time.

To Him be all praise, honor and glory and may we be His humble and willing vessels just joyfully watching Him work in us, thorugh us and for His people and His purposes.

[sebastian]

ha, y'know this guy called terry virgo who is linked with my church was talking about this woman who played the piano really well in a worship service, he says to her after, that he really liked her playing, she replies "it was not me but the Lord". he replies saying "it wasn't that good!"
I don't mean to mock but credit is due where it is due!:D

(please don't be offended I'm just joking around!)

[mont974x4]

LOL I get ya, brother.


In the past I have had serious pride issues so I take care when people offer compliments. They are encouraging, needed, and appreciated (and part of edifying each other) but, well, I'm sure you know what I am getting at. LOL


Plus, I have been a lot of compliments lately and I am a bit leery fo the other shoe. :D


I need to remember that joke, I know a few folks that will appreciate it.



Jay

[JeffTheLearner]

Faith Warrior, settle down man!
Anyway how did this post start becoming about (NO CHURCH)?
I did not say that. If you were not too busy trying to justify the doctrines of error (WITH IN) you’re Church. You would have noticed that I was talking about a (DIFFERENT CHURCH), and that I’m looking for one like it.
As for your elders, I don’t know them. Most people who are going to church are married, or seeking to be so and that’s a given. But what about Paul who wrote that letter your talking about to Timothy? Was Paul married? And those whom He said in 1Cor chapter7, that He would rather have them as He? Those of whom he was speaking could not be Elders? But I agree I was wrong in allowing “Elder” status to those who have taken the time to have the whole Gospel put on their heart, and Born of His Seed. I was thinking more along the lines of “They have done it, and they could help others.” I just thought the Church described was focusing on The Word First, which is neglected everywhere, and did not require much responsibility. Maybe Church is the wrong term, maybe School would be a better one. But according to the Word those who have the Word in them, are His and are of His Body, so Id rather refer to it as a Church. So the "Elder" title sould be "Spirit filled Helpers.":thumbsup:
But as for the Elders I have seen, They don’t have the WORD in them, to where they are no longer walking in error. Nope, instead they praise their preacher who brings in millennia old heresy’s by which he was indoctrinated within seminary school (Note: Mat 16:6), to introduce worldly principals, and philosophies mingled with the Word to make their point. Preaching without the full Gospel inscribed on there hearts. They cant be born of God for even with a slack job, and the funding of a whole congregation they still have not set aside the time to put the Gospel on there heart. They preach doctrines on “We are only human” and that “Jesus did NOT destroy the works of the Devil” which is SIN, they preach about “Rebirth” and being “born from above” yet the effects of such a Great Salvation are NOT in effect, which is the Victory over sin through Christ Jesus, who is The Very Word they neglect.
1John 3:9 “No one who is born of God practices sin, because His SEED abides IN him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.”

Read from John 12:44 to the end of chapter 17, Jesus is speaking of Word Keepers, and His prayer is for Word Keepers of His Words, and the Words of His Disciples / Apostles.
John 14:24, "He who DOES NOT LOVE ME, does not KEEP MY WORDS; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father's who sent Me.”

-A snippet of His Prayer,
John 17:6 "I have manifested Your NAME to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and THEY HAVE KEPT YOUR WORD.”
As for this subject I could go on and on, because the Word has been very clear on this teaching.

Anyway to what I was talking about. The church, which is a (different) church. Made up of students, and "Spirit filled helpers"(Non-elders), who are still students, but shod with the Gospel, that of our salvation. Filled with the Spirit, and Truth. By Him who is the ONLY WAY, TRUTH, AND LIFE!
John 6:63, "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; THE WORDS that I have SPOKEN to you ARE SPIRIT AND ARE LIFE.”

If you think this is weird, you deny the Power of the Living Word. Keep your traditions, I don’t care about that, but EXULT the Word over ALL of it. Although I would say Paul did warn in Corinth, and Galatians 5:9, “a LITTLE leaven, leavens the WHOLE LUMP.”
It strikes me as a very strange thing, that people boast of their faith, and believing in Him, yet they have no faith in the Word, as to do what is commanded and put it on their heart.

As for you Sebastian, thank you for your kind invite. But people get angry with me when I try to tell them this, even when expressed at the right time, in a soft manner. They just blow it off. I’m not even rude about it, I’m shy, I wait for others to finish there words, and polite to the extreme. The Church is their property, and they are going to run it anyway they please. If I’m quite about it, I just don’t fit in, and then I say to myself “why am I here?” :D
But your Church sounds nice, I live by many big Churches, and they are very judgmental, and cold, even on issues having nothing to do with Gods Word, or the respect of others …if you know what I mean.
They dishonor the poor man and say he lacks faith, ...which is one of the common things among them, thought the bible says that they are rich in faith (James 2:5).
Anyways, the Faith crowd is the one I fit in most with, I wish they would conform to the Word of God, then I could be helped and then help others, but oh well I'll continue to waite on Gods Help, its better anyway, and maybe I just have itchy pants.
Also Adventist, but I must agree with ALL their doctrines, and I don’t ...to keep it short.
Bible quotes from the (NASB)

[sebastian]

As for you Sebastian, thank you for your kind invite. But people get angry with me when I try to tell them this, even when expressed at the right time, in a soft manner. They just blow it off. I’m not even rude about it, I’m shy, I wait for others to finish there words, and polite to the extreme. The Church is their property, and they are going to run it anyway they please. If I’m quite about it, I just don’t fit in, and then I say to myself “why am I here?”
But your Church sounds nice, I live by many big Churches, and they are very judgmental, and cold, even on issues having nothing to do with Gods Word, or the respect of others …if you know what I mean.
They dishonor the poor man and say he lacks faith, ...which is one of the common things among them, thought the bible says that they are rich in faith (James 2:5).
Anyways, the Faith crowd is the one I fit in most with, I wish they would conform to the Word of God, then I could be helped and then help others, but oh well I'll continue to waite on Gods Help, its better anyway, and maybe I just have itchy pants.
Also Adventist, but I must agree with ALL their doctrines, and I don’t ...to keep it short.
well my church is very small. though we wish to grow, i'm famous for questioning/arguing with my pastor a lot! I don't agree with 100% of the 'official' doctrine. it's healthy, (even if i'm annoying at times) to question otherwise people will do things without thinking. but anyway. I dunno about these churches you speak of, i guess we have them over hear but nobody cares about church types much, it sems to be evangelical or liberal, there are even splits in denominations, the CofE for example.
sorry, i'm rambling. just don't hise yourself away from other christians man, God made you the way you are for a reason. you are part of the church and it needs you and you need it.

[Cris413]

I have found that far too many Christians just want the "I showed up on Sunday morning" check mark and way too many Christians are biblically illiterate and are happy to be spoon fed.


We don't all have to agree on the non-essentials but we should be encouraging eachother to dig into the Word together and explore it together and learn and grow together.

that happens. but not everywhere, church is what you make it, your part of it like it or not. and those people need examples to follow, maybe you all could be one if it is so impressed on your heart?

Sebastian, you're right..we should be examples. I believe we notice things like this so that we can get to work for His glory and the edification of the saints.

For example, I was asked to teach an adult Sunday School class. The first few months we just did east studies that got us in the practice of looking into the verses and researching the original meanings from the Greek or Hebrew. Later we started going through Matthew with no other study guides..using only the Bible and word study tools going verse by verse.


It's awesome to see God work in people and see them get hungry to study deeper and we have some great discussions.

To Him be the glory and may we all grow to be the men and women He has for us to be so that we do not boast in ourselves but in Christ our Lord and Savior and treasure.

Thank you but it's all Him. Without His work in me I wouldn't care or take the time.

To Him be all praise, honor and glory and may we be His humble and willing vessels just joyfully watching Him work in us, thorugh us and for His people and His purposes.


These are some awesome posts! It brings joy to my heart to see brothers giving the glory to God where it belongs.

I was working on a post for this thread to come back to find exactly what was in my heart regarding these things already posted.

I'll go ahead and post my thoughts...but I do not believe anything could have been stated better than in the above posts.

God bless you brothers!

First I would like to say that I personally do not see a problem with brothers and sisters who may be enlightened to see the difficulties or misdirection of some church organizations and/or doctrine. (Of course while keeping in mind the importance of not taking a sledgehammer to the foundation of the “church” and those called by God into leadership)

Obviously these “problems” exist. One man who experienced such problems and was led in a different direction by the Holy Spirit founded my church.

What I would seriously question is whether or not the motivation or dissatisfaction is centered on meeting our own needs OR a calling, as led by the Spirit, to meet the needs of others. To reach out to those IN need ACCORDING TO HIS GOOD WILL AND PURPOSE.

All of the finger pointing and spreading of ill will kinda reminds me of school yard antics. Where kids would point fingers and harass other kids in order to make themselves seem better and more important.

In our search for what's real...let us consider God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. It is His work that's real. The Word is what's real. Nothing of ourselves is righteous. Nothing.

Our desire should not be to tear down nor build up. Those jobs belong to God IMHO.

Our desire and focus should be on and in Jesus Christ; to be willing useful vessels as God calls us and allows us to participate in His Kingdom business for His glory and honor.

[mont974x4]

I think I need to take Sebastian out for coffee. LOL in the old days it would have been a beer.

I was told by a brother in CHrist that in the body..I'm the hemmroid. LOL Meaning, I irritate folks but the diference is I get them thinking and discussing and I challenge them.

[sebastian]

oh and one other thing, you say you won't fit in? maybe, maybe your right. and this may sound nasty but we all have a cross to bear, that, i beleive is mine also.
and incase you think i'm only trying to convince you to join my church. (though you would obviously be more than welcome!) I'm just kidding!

[mont974x4]

Cris,

Thank you for the kind words.


I like your schoolyard analogy.


Iron sharpening iron is a painful painstaking process that has beatiful results when done with skilled hands.

[sebastian]

I think I need to take Sebastian out for coffee. LOL in the old days it would have been a beer.
cheers mate! :D

mine's a cup'o'tea though...

[mont974x4]

LOL not a pint of Guiness?


I'm out...taking the kids swimming and a mini-vacation (night in a motel just cuz)


In Him
Jay

[DRL]

Jeff,
Three years ago I left, for good, the church in which I was raised. I visited many churches and none seemed right to me. In the meantime I prayed and prayed about it. Finally 3 years ago this week, as I was driving, God spoke to me and told me to go to "that church on Russell Rd off 95." The following Sunday I went there. I entered the auditorium and sat down. When I sat down I had the incredible feeling of at last coming home hit me. It is a large church, but this is where God told me to go. I have gotten very active in it and have met some wonderful people. They are not perfect, just as I am not perfect. Our senior pastor says frequently, in our church it is okay not to be okay.
So pray and ask God to show you where he wants you. He will let you know. He let me know and I am no exception.
DRL

[TheCosmicGospel]

Jeff, sounds like you want a church where they teach the Bible and everyone is on fire with excitment and joy, joy, joy.

You want a "honeymoon" church. About every church starts with a "honeymoon" phase. They have a shared vision and they have a goal to be different than all the churches around them and free of their mistakes.

Then they start to grow and have to have some core beliefs and decide what is important and you have 50 people. Without leadreship, it starts to look like the elephant and the 5 blind men. Chaos.

Soon disagreements happen and there is a division on what is more important. To have solid teaching or to keep the group united under more of a variety of interests and concerns? Tastes great! Less filling!

Then you have group consensus, boards, committees, and other levels of decision making.

Only way to keep this from happening is to start with 5 people and replace them on a regular basis. So it is easy to poke others in the eye but remember, you only have two yourself.

Growth of any kind brings new risks.

Maybe you need a church plant to grow in and have a desire to direct and lead. Go for it. Just remember what everyone who has been married knows. Honeymoons don't last forever.

Peace,
Cos

[pdfiddler]

JeffTheLearner-- Your view is like a glass of Cold Water in a parched place!:thumbsup:

[Jeremiah8]

You know I have felt bad lately about not going to church, yet every place I go does not fit what a church, as Christ at the Head should be. Every “inspired” preacher seems at best incomplete. Within the congregation those who are deemed as pillars seem as the same as those who would stab you in the back for a promotion at work. All the programs to minister to people seems like I’m being rushed to help others and yet I have a log in my eye. Also when I go to Sunday school I feel like I’m learning more on how to compromise scripture then fulfill it.

I want to go to church, yet things seem so wrong and corrupt.

But it made me think,
Is there anyone on else out there who wants the same?

A place where there is no one standing behind a pulpit ready to speak the message of the day, just students with One Teacher. A place where Jesus is the Teacher, and we are the students working on putting His Word on our hearts. Where there is no need for a minister at Head because all support each other and are working toward the same goal and are true Head is seated at the right hand of the Father. A place that is not just a fancy building where people attend on Sundays and Wednesdays. But a literal home where people don’t just gather but live as a family, being like true brothers and sisters. Not a weird cult, but just a bunch of students working in one goal, putting Gods Word in our hearts. Where people praise God with Holy Words, with Mana that came down from heaven, His Words, Psalms of praise etched on all the hearts of those who sing out, and proclaim in joy. Where fellowship with God has nothing to do with the approval of the pastor, but like a journey to the same place sought by all who are in the same boat guided by the same Captain, The Only Begotten. I want to go to a place where Gods Word is Teacher, and as a student I do what I’m commanded to, and encouraged by others doing the same, putting His Word in my Heart, letting Christ into my heart in the most literal sense. Elders being the ones who have accomplished this task, the task of the Gospel, those equipped with the full armor of the Word, which is of God.:thumbsup:

I was wondering if anyone out there taught of the Word thinks this is too far fetched.
Also,
Does anyone else wish there was a place like this?
Is there a place like this?
Are there any out there aside from myself that wishes to put the Word of God on there hearts, and not just all the likable scriptures, but the Whole Gospel, of which is said we RENEW our minds with?
…and if so, do you find yourself with some of the same problems as I do in doing this, and such a place being a great help?

I know what I need to do, but I need help. As for the churches of the norm, they seem as if they are more of a distraction in this task, then a help.

Let me know what you think.

***(Please add in answer, if you care about putting the Word in your heart, or not.)***
-Thanks! Jeff ;)
Ah Jeff , a kindred spirit !! The church will become a pure and spotless bride, but until then it's better to be found building towards man's attempt at church than just another grumbler !!

[JeffTheLearner]

You know what Jeremiah8?
I understand your point, and it’s the same point I keep hearing over and over again. Also I am not surprised that for mostly all churches this same theme “Change your Church, but don’t leave!” is one of many main sermons a preacher, pastor, or minister would proclaim throughout the year.
They do an excellent job at convicting the whole congregation of discouraged, frustrated and annoyed people who are sick of the hypocrisy.
Yet, at the same time, what no one seems to notice is that there was no debate.
Yet, no one notices that after that sermon the preacher never goes through a list of things that they should work on changing.
They don’t notice that the preacher was the only one allowed to speak up. The only one allowed behind the pulpit.
Yes! I clearly understand all your points in this, as clear as day!
But I also understand that the rhetoric conversed about in most of all churches is only expressed through that particular denominations representative of that church, and that person only.
Also History tells me otherwise, that no church has changed. They have all stayed the same, and the only ones that have changed were not changed from within. But were changed from an external influence, mostly a newly organized denomination. And the Churches that are changed from within rarely have to do with the assembly of people with in that church, but with the change of leadership, and in most churches the leadership is not elected by you. Denominations elect their unchanging own. And "others" elect their son, daughter, or childhood friend.

…. Please forgive me for saying, “no church has changed”, they do. But mostly for the worst, usually growing more perverse and more compromising of scripture as we are witnessing today.

My point is that, I have heard the sermon about “Keeping with the church, quit complaining and change it” rhetoric.
Yet, that preacher has been there running things his way for five, ten, twenty, thirty years. And nothing has moved him in the past. And nothing is going to move him in the future but God, and age. He knows that all he has to do is preach that sermon once a year, twice if needed, and even in times of emergency. A sermon that is “designed” to make you feel bad.
And the funny thing is that, IT WORKS!

As for you Cos,
The church I’m talking about is not a NEW idea, I am sure this is what the first church was about, and what the disciples following Jesus were doing… PUTTING THE WORD, THE GOSPEL ON THEIR HARTS!

It is obvious that the group of people who do this are the ones referred to in Revelations, which that serpent of old hates so much,
“So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, WHO KEEP the commandments of God AND HOLD TO THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS” Revelations 12:17 -(NASB)

[sebastian]

what do you propose doing then?

[JeffTheLearner]

PUT THE WORD IN YOU, THE GOSPEL.
BECOME A NEW CREATURE IN CHRIST JESUS FIRST!
BECOME A PART OF THE BODY OF CHRIST!
WHICH IS THE CHURCH!
DO THIS FIRST!
AND DO IT BY EATING HIS FLEASH AND DRINKING HIS BLOOD!

...then lets worry about fellowship AS a Church!

Everyone keeps wanting to jump the gun.

I'm just looking for a place where others are doing this.
I'm looking for a place where all are LITERALY MEMORIZING THE GOSPEL.

Psalm 119:11;
"Your WORD I HAVE TREASURED IN MY HEART, THAT I MAY NOT SIN AGAINST YOU."

[sebastian]

PUT THE WORD IN YOU, THE GOSPEL.
BECOME A NEW CREATURE IN CHRIST JESUS FIRST!
BECOME A PART OF THE BODY OF CHRIST!
WHICH IS THE CHURCH!
DO THIS FIRST!
AND DO IT BY EATING HIS FLEASH AND DRINKING HIS BLOOD!

...then lets worry about fellowship AS a Church!

Everyone keeps wanting to jump the gun.

I'm just looking for a place where others are doing this.
I'm looking for a place where all are LITERALY MEMORIZING THE GOSPEL.

Psalm 119:11;
"Your WORD I HAVE TREASURED IN MY HEART, THAT I MAY NOT SIN AGAINST YOU."

you just described the church! am I just really lucky, do I have a really great church, is it really so bad over there? I don't see anything new in what you said at all, i'm sorry.

[JeffTheLearner]

Well first off, I’m in an area where many think that the GRACE OF GOD, means IGNORING HIS LAWS AND WAYS.
If you are in a church that they are concerned about putting the GOSPEL, ALL THE WORDS OF CHRIST IN YOU. Who is the Word! And you dwell among those perfected in Christ Jesus, and the works of the devil have been destroyed in them to where they NO LONGER SIN, because His SEED abides in them.

If this is what goes on in your church. All I got to say man is…

MAN I WISH I WAS IN THE UK!!!
…and also,
Where would be a good place to hang out and eat?

[sebastian]

Well first off, I’m in an area where many think that the GRACE OF GOD, means IGNORING HIS LAWS AND WAYS.
I know you have done so before, and I'm sorry if you have but can you explain exactly how and what and why? I'm not arguing about it but I don't know what it's like over thier, I was 5 when I went to America and all i remeber was being tired! (time difference).
If you are in a church that they are concerned about putting the GOSPEL, ALL THE WORDS OF CHRIST IN YOU. Who is the Word! And you dwell among those perfected in Christ Jesus, and the works of the devil have been destroyed in them to where they NO LONGER SIN, because His SEED abides in them.
None of us are perfect, and we do sin, you can't escape sin, but this is our aim to become as Christlike as possible.
If this is what goes on in your church. All I got to say man is…

MAN I WISH I WAS IN THE UK!!!
…and also,
Where would be a good place to hang out and eat?
anywhere that isn't a traditional British restaurant! :sick:
(but we have great range of international food thank God!:yum: )

[JeffTheLearner]

sebastianQuote


None of us are perfect, and we do sin, you can't escape sin, but this is our aim to become as Christlike as possible.


I think you have been robbed of the TRUTH concerning the gifts of God....
"See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ." (Colossians 2:8)

"You know that He appeared in order to TAKE AWAY SINS; and IN HIM there is NO SIN." (1John 3:5)

"NO ONE WHO ABIDES IN HIM SINS; NO ONE WHO SINS HAS SEEN HIM OR KNOWS HIM." (1John 3:6)

"THE ONE WHO PRACTICES SIN IS OF THE DEVIL; for the devil HAS SINNED FROM THE BEGINNING. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, TO DESTROY THE WORKS OF THE DEVIL. (1John 3:8)

"NO ONE WHO IS BORN OF GOD PRACTICES SIN, because His SEED abides IN him; and HE CANNOT SIN, because he is BORN OF GOD." (1John 3:9)

"WE KNOW THAT NO ONE WHO IS BORN OF GOD SINS; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him." (1John 5:18)

...so Jesus, The Word, The Living Word of the Father was lieing when he said this?
"If you abide in Me, and MY WORDS ABIDE IN YOU, ask whatever you wish, and it WILL BE DONE for you." (John 15:7)
...so somthing which is asked, like "to sin no more" which is a request of His will. That one He cant do?
Your very wrong....
Mat 5:6 "Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied." (Matthew 5:6)

"Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and TAKES AWAY THE WORD FROM THEIR HEART, so that they will NOT BELIEVE and BE SAVED." (Luke 8:12)

To TRULY LOVE CHRIST:
"Jesus answered and said to him, "If ANYONE loves Me, HE WILL KEEP MY WORD; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.
He who DOES NOT LOVE ME DOES NOT KEEP MY WORDS; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father's who sent Me.
THESE THINGS I have SPOKEN to you WHILE ABIDING WITH YOU." (John 14:23-25)

"You are already clean BECAUSE OF THE WORD WHICH I HAVE SPOKEN TO YOU.
"Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you UNLESS YOU ABIDE IN ME. (John 15:3-4)


But my whole point is YES,
You CAN BECOME A NEW CREATURE IN CHRIST JESUS, BY THE WORD, AND THE WORD ALONE!
THE NEW CREATURE DOES NOT SIN!!!!

"For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Romans 6:23)

"Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin." (John 8:34)

"So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed. " (John 8:36)

"Who executes justice for the oppressed; Who gives food to the hungry. The LORD sets the prisoners free." (Psamls 146:7)



P.S. I hope you do pay attention, because this did take me a while to put together. :pray:

[sebastian]

P.S. I hope you do pay attention, because this did take me a while to put together.
nah it's too long, I can't be bothered...






yeah, anyway, 'cos i'm not funny I'll answer you...
we are no longer sinners yes, and I say Amen to all above, but Christians, though new creations in Christ, struggle with sin, it's a fact, and I'm not saying we should give up trying to stop sinning, no way, but to continue on in our faith, should we sin, we repent and carry on, we are free from sin, because it now holds no dominion over us, but people still struggle, we are still capable of sin and sin we do.



(Can I ask you a favour? please stop telling me I follow the traditions of men, pleeeaaaase. very annoying, I'm sure you don't mean it too but I take it as quite an insult and an attack of both my personal integrity and my intelligence, I'm not having a go, just please stop saying it, pleeeease.:))

[JeffTheLearner]

...even though I'm tempted to say that you follow the traditions of men, ...I wont.

...But the empty philosophies of men, I would say yes. I wish you understood.

...I wish people would listen!


P.S. Sorry I hit the post button and I wasnt finished.

[sebastian]

fine, what do you mean when you say 'sinning' or 'sinner'? do you mean the literal translation of that term being somone or something that misses the target, falls short of it's potential" or do you mean someone who does bad things?

[JeffTheLearner]

Here, I'll post it again, maybe I'll trick you into readin it again, and you will understand. :thumbsup: :D

------------------------------------------
I think you have been robbed of the TRUTH concerning the gifts of God....
"See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ." (Colossians 2:8)
"You know that He appeared in order to TAKE AWAY SINS; and IN HIM there is NO SIN." (1John 3:5)
"NO ONE WHO ABIDES IN HIM SINS; NO ONE WHO SINS HAS SEEN HIM OR KNOWS HIM." (1John 3:6)
"THE ONE WHO PRACTICES SIN IS OF THE DEVIL; for the devil HAS SINNED FROM THE BEGINNING. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, TO DESTROY THE WORKS OF THE DEVIL. (1John 3:8)
"NO ONE WHO IS BORN OF GOD PRACTICES SIN, because His SEED abides IN him; and HE CANNOT SIN, because he is BORN OF GOD." (1John 3:9)
"WE KNOW THAT NO ONE WHO IS BORN OF GOD SINS; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him." (1John 5:18)
...so Jesus, The Word, The Living Word of the Father was lieing when he said this?
"If you abide in Me, and MY WORDS ABIDE IN YOU, ask whatever you wish, and it WILL BE DONE for you." (John 15:7)
...so somthing which is asked, like "to sin no more" which is a request of His will. That one He cant do?
Your very wrong....
Mat 5:6 "Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied." (Matthew 5:6)
"Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and TAKES AWAY THE WORD FROM THEIR HEART, so that they will NOT BELIEVE and BE SAVED." (Luke 8:12)
To TRULY LOVE CHRIST:
"Jesus answered and said to him, "If ANYONE loves Me, HE WILL KEEP MY WORD; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.
He who DOES NOT LOVE ME DOES NOT KEEP MY WORDS; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father's who sent Me.
THESE THINGS I have SPOKEN to you WHILE ABIDING WITH YOU." (John 14:23-25)
"You are already clean BECAUSE OF THE WORD WHICH I HAVE SPOKEN TO YOU.
"Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you UNLESS YOU ABIDE IN ME. (John 15:3-4)

But my whole point is YES,
You CAN BECOME A NEW CREATURE IN CHRIST JESUS, BY THE WORD, AND THE WORD ALONE!
THE NEW CREATURE DOES NOT SIN!!!!
"For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Romans 6:23)
"Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin." (John 8:34)
"So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed. " (John 8:36)
"Who executes justice for the oppressed; Who gives food to the hungry. The LORD sets the prisoners free." (Psamls 146:7)

P.S. I hope you do pay attention, because this did take me a while to put together.

[sebastian]

I did read it!!!!!!!!!!

[sebastian]

so are you saying you never sin. is a pretty massive question. do you or not? and if so, tell me what you mean by not sinning.

[JeffTheLearner]

I sin, I commit adultery in my heart, ...fornication too. I lyed to my boss today so I could take one of my vaction days. I covet and I am an enmey to God.

I am hungering, and thirsting for righteusness.
I am putting the Word in me.
I have been a student of Yah, and if I continue in His Word, Jesus said He will by no means turn me down.

Nope, I dont even have the gospel in me. I understand the teaching but, the Word is where the Power of the Gospel is.

...to answer your question, Nope, but I'm working on it.
It is His Beloved Son in Whom The Father was, and is well pleased.
His grace is not by Works, but toward the image, or mark of His Son, The anointed Word.

[sebastian]

So why am I following the traditions of men and your not? we are the same. And being a person who sins like you, must show love and grace to those who sin in my church, (ie. everyone) how can I be a hypocrite and condem them. once one sin is finally put to death another is revealed.
It's not like we justify sin, it's not like we say it's ok, we know it's not, but we know we are cleansed by the blood of Christ.

[JeffTheLearner]

You know that the Jewish people were ordered by God to EAT EVERY SINGLE BIT OF THE PASSOVER LAMB.

Everyone remembers the part about the Blood, and the forgivness of sins.

...but they dont believe the words of Jesus, that HE CAN MAKE YOU A SINNER NO MORE.

Yes, we sin, and we will be forgiven, but He came to destroy the works of the devil. You believe in some of the truth but not all of the truth.
But, I did the same thing. I had to be taught of the Word.
I dont even think it matters what I say to you, maybe He has to show it to you Himself.

So, all I can say is slam that bible. Bang it man. Hit it hard and I dont know.... I found reading a book at a time, brings everything into context.

[sebastian]

You know that the Jewish people were ordered by God to EAT EVERY SINGLE BIT OF THE PASSOVER LAMB.

Everyone remembers the part about the Blood, and the forgivness of sins.

...but they dont believe the words of Jesus, that HE CAN MAKE YOU A SINNER NO MORE.
I KNOW!!!!!!!!!!!!

(however I don't think you know the difference between sin and a sinner) anyway, what your talking about is Christian pefection. which is something I think John wesley spoke of, like 100's of years ago, it's not something people don't know about. we can get to a point where we don't willfully sin, i agree.

[JeffTheLearner]

Sorry bud,
But I dont give 2 licks about what John Wesley said...

"The fear of man brings a snare, But he who trusts in the LORD will be exalted." (Proverbs 29:25)

Jesus said,
"You call Me Teacher and Lord; and you are right, for so I am." (John 13:13)
...not, "you call John Wesley Teacher and Lord; and you are right, for so He is."

Jesus said in John,
"Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin." (John 8:34)

translation: ...eveyone who continues to sin, is a sinner and a slave of the devil.

"No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth." (Matthew 6:24)

...what your saying is that your "Born of God" and you still can sin.
...what I'm saying is that your NOT "Born of God", because you still sin.

My point is people think that being a deciple/student, means your "born of God", ...and scripture says that is error, and is wrong.
But being HIS deciples and putting His Word in you, The Words of The Father, you die, and then become part of the Body of Christ, who is sinless.

What you are saying is that Jesus is a sinner because His Body The Church is allowed to remain defiled.

...I dont think you understand all the implications against Christ Jesus, that your theology projects.

[sebastian]

I don't think your reading my posts properly.
I am saying is that John wesley agrees with you.
so the whole concept of christian perfection is quite well known, your not the only person who thinks like this.

[JeffTheLearner]

...well good.

I hope so.

but why are people not doing that.
I cant find one church online helping, and supporting others to put all of the Word in them.

...all I see is preachers, boasting of their minnistry, making sure to toss in a couple of "thank Gods", so they dont sound too hughty.

...all I see is preachers reading from their Bibles, when those Words should be inscribed on their hearts.

I haven’t seen a place anywhere set up to put the Word on Hearts.
The last Churches that I heard was doing that, was those because of persecution from the Catholic Church, forcing Calvinist, Lutheran, Protestant schools to open where people HAD TO put the WHOLE WORD on their hearts, because if they were caught with a bible, they would have been killed.

[sebastian]

I don't why not man. These guys you mention irritate me too, but not all are like that, they can't be, there has to be honest churches somewhere.

You can't just blame the leaders though, they can only do so much. I know you hate it when I say this, but everyone has to pull thier weight, you can't claim your equality to a pastor or a leader elder priest or whatever and then expect them to force feed you and get you all stoked for God. (I'm not saying that's what you do, just saying).

theres another thread around here somewhere, and I have mentioned on there that there are many prophetic words about how chuches who focus on the word, and ones that focus on the spirit are coming together and when they do it's gonna go boom. so if you can't find anything now, have hope in the future. but till then, you have 3 choices that I can see, join the best church you can find and do your best, stay out of church and remain alone, or start your own. I recomend the first, but that's me. I doubt you'd agree.

[LJSGM]

One thing you seem to be missing out on this topic of the church is the Holy Spirit.

John 14

26But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

Acts 2



38Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

[JeffTheLearner]

LGSGM, I have.

I just dont think you noticed.
I got to get off this and I dont have the time to go over this subject again.
But here are a couple of scriptures maybe I wont have to.

Jesus said about the Spirit:
"It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; THE WORDS THAT I HAVE SPOKEN TO YOU ARE SPIRIT and are LIFE." (John 6:63)

John the baptist, about the Spirit:
"For HE whom God has sent SPEAKS THE WORDS OF GOD; for HE GIVES THE SPIRIT WITHOUT MEASURE. (John 3:34)

Peter preaching the WORDS OF JESUS:
"While Peter was still speaking THESE WORDS, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those WHO WERE LISTENING TO THE MESSAGE." (Acts 10:44)

Paul speaking about the power of Jesus Words, which are the Words of the Father. (the Gospel, of the Beloved) The Word of Anointing, The Word of Baptisim:
"For I am not ashamed of the GOSPEL, FOR IT IS THE POWER OF GOD FOR SALVATION to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek." (Romans 1:6)


...I hope this helps to point things out to you.

[LJSGM]

What do you think we need as a church to become a spotless bride, more strivings in the flesh? What about those that are bound and are weak and helpless, who do not know the freedom in Christ because they have not recieved it, yet are constantly condemned by the church.

Luke 11


46Jesus replied, "And you experts in the law, woe to you, because you load people down with burdens they can hardly carry, and you yourselves will not lift one finger to help them

We need righteous hearts from God through the Holy Spirit.

Romans 1

17For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last,[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=1&verse=17&version=31&context=verse#fen-NIV-27933a)] just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."

Perhaps people just don't know because they have been told lies. Are we going to tell them the truth?

Just some things to think about, no need to feel like I'm attacking you. :)

[JeffTheLearner]

"Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' and behold, the log is in your own eye?" (Matt 7:4)

...you speak against yourself.

As for helping others, I try. But in some ways I'm just not ready, Jesus continues...
"You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye." (Mat 7:5)

Anyways, you think you have (faith) yet reject the power of the Word...
"for the WORDS WHICH YOU GAVE ME I HAVE GIVEN TO THEM; and THEY RECEIVED THEM and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believed that You sent Me." (John 17:8)

faith is in vain when you worship idols
"Therefore speak to them and tell them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "Any man of the house of Israel who sets up his idols in his heart, puts right before his face the stumbling block of his iniquity, and then comes to the prophet, I the LORD will be brought to give him an answer in the matter in view of the multitude of his idols."(Eze 14:4)
...hey He will even make sure they talk to you ....LOL!

"Moreover, He said to me, "Son of man, take into your heart all My words which I will speak to you and listen closely."(Eze 3:10)

I'm just saying,
I am not being LEAGALISTIC, I'm repeating the Truth, and you (false faith) people keep getting ticked off, because you hate the truth.
Live in the lies you made for yourself, worship false idols!
No, the Church already with all their silly rituals, and false traditions, misguide the blind and lost enough.
I condemn no one. I'm just telling the truth about them.
Also pointing out who people should pay attention to THE WORD, THE ONLY BEGOTTON.
....which SHOULD be more liberating, even more so from hypocrites, and the false teachers.

[sebastian]

you (false faith) people keep getting ticked off, because you hate the truth.
Live in the lies you made for yourself, worship false idols!
...which SHOULD be more liberating, even more so from hypocrites, and the false teachers.
and you first quote against LJSGM
"Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' and behold, the log is in your own eye?" (Matt 7:4)

...you speak against yourself.
I wonder man.
your really irritating me, not that you'd care, but people are quoting the bible at you, and then you just call them idol worshipers. if your so right about wanting to study the bible you should be open to hear the word, youdon't have the sole truth, the perfect interpretation of scripture, we false faith people huh? everything you have said to me so far has been taught everywhere, your not some amazing guy who has seen the truth and we are all decieved.

[LJSGM]

calm down...

I'm not trying to take anything out of your eye. :) I'm just trying to contribute something as in thoughts that I've had that might be edifying in some way. You've somehow turned some things that I've learned around into some sort of attack, which I will say once again, they are not. It wasn't even directed anything toward you. To be quite sure I don't even understand your last post, soo....

Galatians 5

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

let us once again try to be kind to each other instead of speaking from our flesh :)

[Floatingaxe]

...well good.

I hope so.

but why are people not doing that.
I cant find one church online helping, and supporting others to put all of the Word in them.

...all I see is preachers, boasting of their minnistry, making sure to toss in a couple of "thank Gods", so they dont sound too hughty.

...all I see is preachers reading from their Bibles, when those Words should be inscribed on their hearts.

I haven’t seen a place anywhere set up to put the Word on Hearts.
The last Churches that I heard was doing that, was those because of persecution from the Catholic Church, forcing Calvinist, Lutheran, Protestant schools to open where people HAD TO put the WHOLE WORD on their hearts, because if they were caught with a bible, they would have been killed.


Then get up here to my church!

Or get down to Bogota Columbia, to Mision Carismatica Internacional! It'll knock your socks off! Google it. Leadership is taken very seriously there and here...

[Lightcreated]

You are not alone, there are many people going through the same thing.
I my self have been trough it, and i thought something was wrong with me untill i learn that GOD is through with the local congragation and He is calling the true believers out.
Because He is judging the that's why the churches have been in such turmoil for the last few years.Remember He said the House of GOD shall be judged 1st, it's in His word read carefully and see for your self.But we are in the final tribulation at this time and we have been for years now, we are very very very close to the last day,very close without any doubt and every1 weather they want to admit it or not can see or feel that we are almost at the last day.

[LJSGM]

You are not alone, there are many people going through the same thing.
I my self have been trough it, and i thought something was wrong with me untill i learn that GOD is through with the local congragation and He is calling the true believers out.
Because He is judging the that's why the churches have been in such turmoil for the last few years.Remember He said the House of GOD shall be judged 1st, it's in His word read carefully and see for your self.But we are in the final tribulation at this time and we have been for years now, we are very very very close to the last day,very close without any doubt and every1 weather they want to admit it or not can see or feel that we are almost at the last day.
Yes, very, very close.

[Cris413]

I think it's important to remember...that in the end times there will be a great falling away. False teachers and false doctrine will multiply.

This should be of no surprise to any believer as God's word warns us of this over and over.

2 Thessalonians comes to mind...

What I think some fail to miss though...in pointing, pointing, pointing at all of the poor examples of Christianity, poor examples of the church and teaching ministries and poor examples of brothers and sisters...is that

Great care and real Spiritual discernment must be given in such matters...broadly labeling ministries and leadership as in error or apostasy... harm is being done to legitimate, Spirit led ministries and believers.

2 Timothy 4:1-5 I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom:

v2 Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching.

v3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers

v4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.

v5 but you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.

So...I think that while we're considering the importance of leading people away from the lies and errors...we need to be more concerned about leading them to the truth so they can be equipped to discern, by His Holy Spirit, the difference.

Simply because we may not agree with something does not make it an absolute error. This is why we need the Word of God to compare these things to Scripture by understanding as led by the Holy Spirit.

As we read through Scripture it is clear that Jesus Christ and the Apostles placed a HUGE importance on public ministries.

[Floatingaxe]

Acts 2:14...
That's when Peter stood up and, backed by the other eleven, spoke out with bold urgency: "Fellow Jews, all of you who are visiting Jerusalem, listen carefully and get this story straight. These people aren't drunk as some of you suspect. They haven't had time to get drunk—it's only nine o'clock in the morning. This is what the prophet Joel announced would happen: "In the Last Days," God says, "I will pour out my Spirit on every kind of people: Your sons will prophesy, also your daughters; Your young men will see visions, your old men dream dreams. When the time comes, I'll pour out my Spirit On those who serve me, men and women both, and they'll prophesy. I'll set wonders in the sky above and signs on the earth below, Blood and fire and billowing smoke, the sun turning black and the moon blood-red, Before the Day of the Lord arrives, the Day tremendous and marvelous; And whoever calls out for help to me, God, will be saved."



The Last Days Revival has to come first! The Church will surge like never before!

Come! Get in on the action!

[LJSGM]

:clap: :hug: :clap:

[LJSGM]

Matthew 23:26

First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.

God is washing the inside of the cup and dish of his church! He's washing our hearts, and healing us!

[Floatingaxe]

Matthew 23:26

First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.

God is washing the inside of the cup and dish of his church! He's washing our hearts, and healing us!


Amen, sis! :thumbsup: :wave:
Making us those honourable vessels He talks about... Amen?

[JeffTheLearner]

Sorry LJSGM,
I'm like a fire cracker at times.:doh:

I have just dealt with so many (Faith without the knowledge of the Word) people. I'm a little sensitive about the subject.
But if your point was that I'm greedy, lazy, evil, and not up to Gods standards. I completely agree with you!
I wish I was.
...but this is the point where everyone tells me, "that’s why Jesus came."

...and I'll say, "I know!"

My point is people are receiving a fake (religious Jesus). And scripture is CLEAR that Jesus is (THE WORD) and The Living Word of The Father.

they tell me... "receive Jesus in your heart. Pray and He will come in."

I tell them Jesus said, "receive My Words, they are not just My Words but The Words of My Father"

I continue... "Jesus is knocking at the door, but you will not let THE WORD IN."
The Word of which time, after time scripture claims of, that the Gospel is the Power, The Word is the armor needed for a believer to be equipped with. The Word is what is said of that will renew your mind.

I keep having to point out the same things over, and over. Sebastian thinks Ive gone loopy, but he does not know all the silly arguments I have been in with people who reject this truth.
O.K. I'll give you an example, I live by Victory Church, they believe in the Word, they talk about the Word, they even heve events named "WORD EXPLOSION", and you know what? ....they dont see any reasion why they should put the Word in them, the Full Gospel. They claim that their faith makes them rich, yet they are poor, thay claim that their faith makes them clothed, but without the Word they are naked.
...They look at me like a nut bag, when I tell them this, yet they are not perfected, telling me "I need more faith", yet its clear as day that I have tons of faith!

"For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also; but THE WORD they heard did not profit them, because it was not UNITED BY FAITH in those who heard." (Heb 4:2)

...the people of the past didnt mix Faith with the Word.
...people today are not mixing The Word with faith!

*MY POINT: FIRST AND FOREMOST JESUS IS THE WORD OF YAH, THE FIRST OF CREATION, THE ONLY BEGOTTEN OF THE FATHER.
YOU REJECT THE WORD, YOU REJECT JESUS, AND THE FATHER!!!

[LJSGM]

The lies that I speak of are people speaking about a duel nature, that we are still sinful, yet have the holy spirit, and that the righteousness that is given by God is just a covering and not actually doing what is right, or being free from sin. I agree with you more then you know (if this is kinda what you're saying) I guess the hard thing is when you use the terminology "Word" of God, since I would probably use the "Holy Spirit" which in effectually the Word of God as well, since there is only ONE God.

Oh, I wouldn't call them lies, most of the time, they have been misled, or misintrepreted, only rarely, I think, do they use this theology as a reason to sin, I think they use it because they just don't understand and have never died to sin yet and still battle with it so they have to come up with a theology that centers around this fact in their lives.

[LJSGM]

1 John 3


7Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous

[JeffTheLearner]

"No one who is Born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and HE CANNOT SIN, because he is born of God." (1John 3:9)

I dont believe in a dual nature, I believe Jesus has defeated sin. The problem is the Word, IMPLANTED which is able to save your soul.

"For THE WORD OF GOD IS LIVING and ACTIVE and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart." (Hebrews 4:12)

...a favorit of those who like to quote two liners, but aside from that, this scrpture is clear about the power of The Word. And its is able to divide sin, from a sinner.

The problem is people dont put EVERY BIT OF THE LAMB IN THEM! Which is ALL HIS SAYINGS, AND WORDS!

"Therefore, putting aside all filthiness and all that remains of wickedness, in humility receive the WORD IMPLANTED, which IS ABLE to save your souls."(James 1:21)

Another thing that makes me shy away from going to many churchs, is at the end of every service they ask,
"is anyone here not Born Again? Raise your hand, Come up."

....man I have to raise my hand every time they ask that, and I have to go up every time. Its kind of annoying because all who are there feeling sympothy should be up there with me. ....LOL!

[MaidforHim]

I typed a reply and CF ate it! So I'll give it another shot briefly... I was where you are now. My husband and I both had bad church experiences when young, so our family was churchless for years and now that we have been blessed with a wonderful church home I can't imagine going back to not having one.:thumbsup:

I expect a church to be
1) Christ Centered
2) To be teaching DIRECTLY from the Bible
3) Not be adding man's ideals and values into the text or church like some how God must have left something out and needs us to fix things for Him.
4) Not to be aiming to please the word, but to share God's truth in it's entirety... no picking and choosing!
5) Have some fruit showing, whether it's a new church with a handful of mature believers and a handful of new baby Christians as fruit or it's a seasoned church with many mature Christians and out reach ministries bearing fruit... there needs to be some fruit.

I would ask you, if you found yourself in a solid church that was new, only having a handful of mature believers and maybe the same amount of more of baby Christians just starting their walk....
Would you reocognize this as a church with a lot of new believers just beginning to realize what it is to walk with Christ or would it look to you as though it were a church were their members walked loosely with Christ?

I am not sure I would have recognized the difference a few years back.:o

I can tell you that having experienced this situation and the extreme opposite... that being a church full of mature believers where they study all the time, but no one new ever gets saved and they rarely, if ever, do they reach out to anyone besides sending a couple bucks to a missionary... I'd choose the new church with lots of new inexperienced believers. (assuming of course this is where the Holy Spirit is leading)

No doubt your experience in seeking a church is not a mistake. It will help you recognize the right church when you find it as long as your prayerfully seeking God's guidance.

Consider though, God may not put you where you think He would.:idea: But he will use you if you follow Him to where HE wants you to be.

If the teaching is solidly founded on the Word, be careful not to judge the body of believers to quickly. Get to know them, go to a Bible study or two, let God guide you. Because Satan does not want you to find that wonderful church home, he doesnt' want you in the Word and when you visit churches satan will be trying to wisper in your ear and pointing out faults.

There really are good churches out there who love and focus on Jesus and teach directly from the word, if you take the time to look you'll find the fruit. I wish you the best in finding the right one for you.

"Why Church?" John 20:19
http://www.calvaryftl.org/AWMedia/Me...k.cfm?fn=C3564 (http://www.calvaryftl.org/AWMedia/MediaDesk.cfm?fn=C3564)


(Until you find a church you can get a lot of good teaching through media ministry at the above site through the navbar on the left.)

If your wanting a Christ centered church that teaches directly from the Bible, this is where we found ours: http://www.calvarychapel.com/?show=Churches (http://www.calvarychapel.com/?show=Churches)


I wish you the best in your search for a Christ centered, Bible teaching, church home. :wave:

Edited to add:
fix links, had them mixed up.

[TheLivingWater]

I think that you'r looking for an non existing church :)
The church you seeks in inside you :)
And even on a lonely island you will have the best church with you :)
The church we gether is a place where people go for theyr own and different reasons :)

[MaidforHim]

Here's a few more teachings that are particularly great on the Church.

What's Church?
What do you think of when you hear the word "church"? Is it a large building with stained glass windows, or does this small word mean something much more? In this three-tape series, Pastor Bob Coy will guide you through the Bible as you learn of God's plan and purpose for His church. See what our Father says our behavior should be as a family of believers. Discover the potential that the church has for reaching an entire world for Jesus Christ.

Description:
What is the Church? A Body-function, A Bride-favor, Believers-faith, Behavior. The church encompases: A course in Christian character, A center for justice, Sanctuary for the saved, object of persecution. It's a house to honor God.

What's Church
http://www.calvaryftl.org/AWMedia/MediaDesk.cfm?fn=T1209

Behavior Becoming a Bride
http://www.calvaryftl.org/AWMedia/MediaDesk.cfm?fn=T1210

Behavior Of The Body
http://www.calvaryftl.org/AWMedia/MediaDesk.cfm?fn=T1211


"Just Like Them Pt.9:Come-Union" 1 Co 11:23
Why is it so important to attend church? There we receive our marching orders and then do! There we consider-observe & discover, stir up-encourage one another in love & good works. Learn why it is attendance is vital.
http://www.calvaryftl.org/AWMedia/MediaDesk.cfm?fn=T1311


"Great God,Great Church" Deut 10:17

What was the greatest ingredient of the first church? The same great God of today! Recognizing God's authority, ability and awesome nature is the way to live life now with hopeful expectation.
http://www.calvaryftl.org/AWMedia/MediaDesk.cfm?fn=T3077

Edited to: fix linnks, I had them mixed up.

[JeffTheLearner]

Yea, I know what your saying Mr. TheLivingWater.:D

Frankly I just weird people the HECK OUT! …LOL!

People keep trying to tell me that I’m "Born of God", and scripture is clear when it says that I’m not.
And when I tell them this, people start saying that I’m looking for ways to justify sin, I don’t justify sin! I even try to do the Sabbath sun down to sun down which has cost me better jobs with better pay.
I don’t go out very much, and everyone who knows me never hears one foul word come out of my mouth.

The thing is, I know my perverted mind. I know I am still of sin. At best according to the Word I’m a slave of sin who despises his master. Heck I’ve been struggling with these stupid things called cigarettes for years. The funny thing is, people who know me think I’m a saint, IM NOT! At best I’m an idiot. I know that Jesus said ,
"Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” (Mat 5:48)

Yea, that weirds people OUT!;)
But thats not the half of it...

To top all that off, if the “not born again” thing don’t throw them off, then I tell them they must put the WHOLE GOSPEL, THE WORD in them.
…I understand peoples hatred of memorizing stuff. But people don’t understand that it is Gods Word that is eternal! People don’t understand that “Those who are seated with Christ Jesus” …”HEVENLY PLACES” they partake of the resurrection of Christ by EATING HIS WORD. ALSO WE DIE HIS DEATH, by EATING HIS WORD.
People don’t understand JESUS THE LIVING WORD IS THE ONLY TEACHER WE NEED!

But anyways....
It was warned by the Apostles themselves long ago that false teachers, and false (speakers of Gods Word) “False Prophets” were in the very Churches they started. Jesus said many False “Christ” will come. You all know the word “Christ” means “Anointed”. Man!!!, most churches I’ve seen as of lately keep saying “Come hear this ANOINTED teaching.” or “Come and see these ANOINTED Ministers”. …..LOL, It spooks me.:help:

All I’m saying is, If you could get the baby Christian to believe He or She is born again, before He or She really is, you could distract them with works, good deeds, long worship ceremonies, and being entertained by long blabbering rants. You could easily keep them captive, and they don’t see any reason to seek the Living Word. Yet, they know something is missing. They remain hungry, and there are many who prophet well from that hunger with positive “feel good” messages to get the hungry by for the week. But their words are dead and they have no life in them!
Jesus told the devil….
“It is written, 'MAN SHALL NOT LIVE ON BREAD ALONE, BUT ON EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDS OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD.'" (Mat 4:4)

[carlos123]

Hi Jeff,

Maybe I shouldn't say this publicly on the thread but seeing as how you have been so open about what you think about everyone else in a public way my hope is that you will take what I say below as you want others to take what you say.

You seem really confused Jeff. I don't relish saying that but after reading through most of this thread that seems to be the case.

You say that Christians do not sin or seem to say that but you admit to sinning a lot. And so forth.

I just don't get where you are coming from Jeff. It's very confusing.

What do you mean by get the Word in you? Do you mean memorizing the Word? Is that what you mean?

If that is what you mean then do you consider persons who are not memorizing the Word Christians?

Are you memorizing the Word? Does that make you a Christian?

Any answers to the above questions would help me to understand what you are saying better.

Thanks.

Carlos

[JeffTheLearner]

...yea, I confuse a lot of people, but I have been very striate about what I know in scripture. But I understand why people do get confused. Most of what I talk about means they have to abandon their doctrines. Which I would remind them that most of those doctrines whether they know it or not were adopted from a Church that worships Mary, among many other false idols, whose main leaders claim they are the replacement of Christ on earth, and added the bible to their banned books list.

But as for your first question…
I did not say “Christians” do not sin. “Christians” do sin, and work toward not sinning,
“for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.”(Romans 2:13)

What I did say was those who are “BORN AGAIN”, “BORN FROM ABOVE”, “BORN OF GOD”, do NOT SIN!
People keep getting confused the difference between a “Christian“, and one who is “Born of God”. And its clear in scripture, but again I don’t blame them.
“ …and when he had found him, he brought him to Antioch. And for an entire year they met with the church and TAUGHT considerable numbers; AND THE DISCIPLES WERE FIRST CALLED CHRISTIANS in Antioch” (Acts 11:26)
People forget or just don’t know what a DISCIPLE is,
From the Strongs:
“‘math-ay-tes' From G3129; A LEARNER, that is, pupil: - disciple.”
…in other words a disciple is a STUDENT, or a LEARNER, like my name …LOL!
So here in scripture it is making STUDENTS equal with the title CHRISTIAN.

But about being “Born of God” I’ll post the same out front scripture that I always post,
“NO ONE who is born of God practices sin, because HIS SEED ABIDES IN HIM; and HE CANNOT SIN, because he is BORN OF GOD.” (1John 3:9)
….as for HIS SEED in this scripture, this will lead to your second question.
"Now the parable is this: THE SEED IS THE WORD OF GOD.” (Luke 8:11)
This is from the parable of “The SEED and The SOWER” which many false teachers well known today take and falsely change the word, “WORD” and change it to “MONEY”, Not in their bibles, but they give a big speech on how this is what you should do with your “MONEY” completely taking the focus off “THE WORD”.

Anyways what do you do with seeds?
Do you put them in a book, and look at them every time you forget what they look like?
Or,
Do you SOW the seeds in the ground, later eating the FRUIT there of?
I hope you chose the later. And if you didn’t I hope you read the WHOLE parable again and pay close attention to how many times Jesus says “THE WORD” and where to “SOW IT”.
Example:
"When anyone hears THE WORD OF THE KINGDOM and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away WHAT HAS BEEN SOWN IN HIS HEART. This is the one on whom SEED was sown beside the road.” (Mat 13:19)

Aside from this not only is The Word compared to SEED, but also to Bread, Mana, Lamb, NAME OF GOD, Light, and Jesus Himself, the Anointed.
“ AND THE WORD BECAME FLESH, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of THE ONLY BEGOTTEN FROM THE FATHER, full of grace and truth.” (John 1:14)
As for the Lamb, John the Baptist testified,
“…and he looked at Jesus as He walked, and *said, "Behold, the Lamb of God!" (John 1:36)
And if Jesus is the Living Word, and the Lamb of God, which many remember because of His Blood poured out for the forgiveness of sins and recall the Passover. Where before dusk the Children of Israel killed so that the plague will Pass Over them. They forget about what Yah commanded after the slaughtering of the Lamb.
“'Do not eat any of it raw or boiled at all with water, but rather roasted with fire, both its head and its legs along with its entrails.
'AND YOU SHALL NOT LEAVE ANY OF IT OVER UNTIL MORNING, but whatever is left of it until morning, you shall burn with fire.
'NOW YOU SHALL EAT IT IN THIS MANNER: with your loins girded, your sandals on your feet, and your staff in your hand; and you shall eat it in haste--IT IS THE LORDS PASSOVER” (Exodus 12:9-11)
….not only does this speak of the state of His followers and His second coming. It clearly is saying EAT THE LAMB, and ALL OF IT! This is something Jesus makes sure to confirm to His disciples by what people call “The Last Supper”.
“And when He had taken some bread and given thanks, He broke it and gave it to them, saying, "THIS IS MY BODY which is given for you; DO THIS IN REMEMBRANCE OF ME." And in the same way He took the cup AFTER THEY HAD EATEN, saying, "This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood.” (Luke 22:19-20)
Also pay attention to this…
“So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless YOU EAT THE FLESH OF THE SON OF MAN and drink His blood, YOU HAVE NO LIFE IN YOURSELVES. He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood HAS ETERNAL LIFE, and I will raise him up on the last day. For MY FLESH IS TRUE FOOD, and My blood is true drink. He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood ABIDES IN ME, AND I IN HIM. As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so HE WHO EATS ME, he also will live because of Me. "This is the bread which came down out of heaven; not as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever." (John 6:53-58)
You know that just normal everyday occurrences testify to many truths of Gods Word.
I know that even though you drain an animal of its blood before you eat it, you cant avoid not eating any blood at all, and if you cook it really good, you still eat the dead blood cells drained of there water base with in the meat.
But if you think I’m going to far in comparing Jesus, our Savior to food listen to His Own Words Jesus said to them,
"I AM THE BREAD OF LIFE; he who comes to Me WILL NOT HUNGER, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.” (John 6:35)

….anyways I could go on, and on, and on about this. I would love to add more but I could only post so much at once. But to answer your question, Yes! You should memorize the Life Giving Word of God. Heck, God used His Word to give Life to All that exist today.
"For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to THE SON ALSO TO HAVE LIFE IN HIMSELF;” (John 5:26)

Now to your other question. Yes I have, various Psalms, Matt Chapter 1 to 7:28, John Chapter 1 to 5:47, and Chapter 12:44 to 18:1 all word for word. But you know what I fiddle farted around I did not Hold fast to what I had, and forgot much of it word for word. People have a saying “you don’t use it, you lose it.” And that’s what I did, and that’s why I started this post looking for such a Church as I mentioned, because with the support and encouragement of others doing the same thing, I may not have slipped up.

"I HOLD FAST my righteousness and will not let it go. My heart does not reproach any of my days.” (Job 27:6)
“Then he taught me and said to me, "Let your heart HOLD FAST my Words; Keep my commandments and live;” (Proverbs 4:4)
"But the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard THE WORD in an honest and good heart, and HOLD IT FAST, and bear fruit with PERSEVERANCE.” (Luke 8:15)
“Now I make known to you, brethren, THE GOSPEL which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, BY WHICH ALSO YOU ARE SAVED, if you HOLD FAST THE WORD which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.”(1Cor 15:1-2)
“I know where you dwell, where Satan's throne is; and YOU HOLD FAST MY NAME, and did not deny My faith even in the days of Antipas, My witness, My faithful one, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells” (Revelations 2:13)

As for His Name…
“I will bow down toward Your holy temple And give thanks to Your name for Your loving-kindness and Your truth; For YOU HAVE MAGNIFIED YOUR WORD ACCORDING TO ALL YOUR NAME.” (Psalm 138:2)
“He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and HIS NAME IS CALLED THE WORD OF GOD.” (Revelations 19:13)
…yea I messed up, and I need to work on putting all His Word in me. I’m still a sinner, and I’m still a Student.

I hope this answers all your questions.:thumbsup:

P.S. Yea I am a bit confrontational, but I have to be, I tried buttering the bread and they wont eat it.
People listen better when you personalize things, also others pay attention while your doing it.

[Tkjjc89]

Did that long ago. I finally actually began to learn what the Bible really said when I did that. I discoved the "reverends" really didn't know much about what they "preached." And....that the christians who gathered in such a manner had very little interest in what the Bible actually said.....only in performing the weekly ritual.

Ditto :hug:

[Tkjjc89]

I don't kow why it is that people don't seem to understand you Jeff. I totally understand and get what you are saying, as I too have been on that very journey you are on also. Almost identical!
I worship the Sabbath the way I feel it is intended to be kept. I also looked at the churches that support just that 1 single commandment, and to my avail, they started in on doctrine that I had no clue what was about. Stuff like the end times and the Catholic Church being part of the antichrist. So, looked not at them anylonger.

I am a student that when I started looking and praying really hard into what the scripture was saying,,,I had to take a serious step back. So much to take in, it was almost scary. Why would Christ say the road is narrow, and though many are called, few get in? I get this. It isn't enough to call yourself anything. It isn't enough to get into rituals of any sort. Picking up the cross and following YAH is something that very very few people can actually do,,,imo. I use the Holy Name of YAH here, as this is God's name. Psalms 68:4

I have been searching for this church you speak of. I know that He showed us ALL the WAY, and for us to get a better understanding of it, is to UNDERSTAND what it was He was saying. Studying the Holy Word helps, but I have a feeling there is more to it than meets the eye. I think I may have found a clue, while praying and studying, but you would have to PM me for that. It goes along with the John 3:3 scope of what Jesus was saying, but since I have not been afforded the time yet, I don't know.

[UNCHURCHED]

God has given me a great vision and now I am waiting for his instructions on where to plant it.

Taking the Churchiness out of the church. Symbolic of removing the religion out of the relationship.

Get rid of the pews, tradtional hymnals, Pulpits, and titles.

Bring in the Couches, chairs, end tables, coffee bar, place for the Kids to hang out, and have your "Pastor" preach amongst his flock. Allow the congreagations to ask questions, Have modern worship music like cool hand luke, Desciple, etc. If the people dont want to come to Jesus, then we will Use the things of the world to bring Jesus to them.

Perhaps I will plant this in my Hometown of Ansonia CT.

[flyingsum0]

Nice!

[Floatingaxe]

Instead of the problem of the "comfortable pew", we'll have the "comfortable couch" potato to deal with!

The idea has merit. After all, the first churches were homes, and cell churches hold their cells in homes, and it works wonderfully--because it is normal! Most of the churches we see now are so far from the original, precisely because religion has crept in.

In Jesus Christ, you will have success!

[JeffTheLearner]

Tkjjc89Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenL http://www3.christianforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=34495656#post34495656)
Did that long ago. I finally actually began to learn what the Bible really said when I did that. I discoved the "reverends" really didn't know much about what they "preached." And....that the christians who gathered in such a manner had very little interest in what the Bible actually said.....only in performing the weekly ritual.

Ditto :hug:

LOL...:D
I dont think I noticed that comment.


"Your commandments make me wiser than my enemies, For they are ever mine. I have more insight than all my teachers, For Your testimonies are my meditation. I understand more than the aged, Because I have observed Your precepts." (Psalms 119:98-100)

UNCHURCHEDGod has given me a great vision and now I am waiting for his instructions on where to plant it.

Taking the Churchiness out of the church. Symbolic of removing the religion out of the relationship.

Get rid of the pews, tradtional hymnals, Pulpits, and titles.

Bring in the Couches, chairs, end tables, coffee bar, place for the Kids to hang out, and have your "Pastor" preach amongst his flock. Allow the congreagations to ask questions, Have modern worship music like cool hand luke, Desciple, etc. If the people dont want to come to Jesus, then we will Use the things of the world to bring Jesus to them.

Perhaps I will plant this in my Hometown of Ansonia CT.

...I love this idea,

but as fot the "Pastor", I think it should be "Jesus, The Word of Yah", "The Head of the Church" ...:P

[TheCosmicGospel]

Why not go to the park? Have cookouts? Cause a Jesus commotion? Hand out tracts? Eat food. Drink drinks. Feed the poor you have invited for the free food. Ask people what their needs are. Cut lawns? Fix cars?

Not sure what you do if it rains. Get wet? Bring an umbrella? Visit another church en masse and really turn some heads.

Peace,
Cos