Was Satan an Angel or Jesus' Brother?

[Rediscoveringgod]

Some people believe that Satan was the brother of Jesus and Jesus was chosen by God to be our Savior instead of his brother, Satan. But others say Satan was an Angel who turned other Angels against God and they followed him. I always thought Angels were created by God to worship Him. That they had no other choice. So, how could Satan, if he were an Angel, turn against God? Was he created? Also, was the serpent who tempted Eve actually Satan?

[arielette]

Hi Rediscoveringgod:

"Some people believe that Satan was the brother of Jesus and Jesus was chosen by God to be our Savior instead of his brother, Satan"

Wow, I have never heard that before. Can you tell me who put forth this theory?

Love in Christ

[lily101]

I have been a christian for 10 years and have found that evry person has a difrent walk with God.

For me...I believe God gives me all the answeres I need in the Bibel. The Bibel says satan was an angel that had fallen. And because of my faith that is all I need to know.
Please go to the Bibel. Make a study of it for yourself. I hope you find the answeres your heart is looking for.

[flyingsum0]

Nice I love conspiracy theories :)

[JTLauder]

To give the OP the benefit of the doubt that she's asking a genuine question, I think it's valid to try to answer this.

As with anything Biblical, it's always important to be able to back it up. My first response would be to ask whoever's making these assertions for Biblical passages for reference. Having said that, since I've never studied this topic, I don't have the Biblical references at the top of my head, but maybe others do to confirm or deny what I say here.

I believe that the idea of Satan (or Lucifer) being Jesus' brother is part of the Mormon theology. There may be other groups who teach this, but I know that Mormons believe this. This is clearly false and no where does it say that in the Bible.

There's been debate over whether the serpent in the Garden of Eden was Satan himself or another demon. Truth is, we probably don't really know for sure, but it has been traditionally thought that way. Whether it really is him or not, the serpent represents the evil deceptive force of Satan and all those fallen angels that have aligned themselves with him.

I don't think it says anywhere in the Bible that angels were created without a will or freedom of choice. But the fact that Lucifer was able to turn away from God and take others with him would suggest he had the ability to do that. Now why God would allow him to do that is another question.

[HypnoToad]

Yeah, the Satan-was-Jesus'-brother thing is a Mormon belief, and I (like JT said) haven't seen it professed by any other religions.

Based on Scripture, I'm pretty certain that 1) Satan was the serpent - Revelation refers to Satan as "that old serpent" twice; and 2) Satan was once an angel who subsequently rebelled against God.

Scripture doesn't speak directly about angels having free will, so we're left to theorizing based on what we know. Thomas Aquinas wrote some interesting things on angels and their free will; you can search for it on the internet. (If you're not logically-minded, it may be hard to follow.)

Basically, angels have a "perfect" free will. What this means is that, once they make a decision, it is permanent. So, after first being made, they had the choice to follow God or rebel. Satan and about 1/3 of the angels chose to rebel, the others chose to follow.

Since this is a choice of a "perfect" free will, it will never change. So the rebellious ones will never repent, and the faithful will never turn away. It's the fact that they won't change their minds which can make it seem now like they don't have a choice. But in fact they do have a free choice, but it only needs to be made once for them, and they've already made it.

[FenderElctrc]

satan is not Jesus' brother. He was an angel, but was disobedient to God, so he departed from God and is now completely against God.

[mont974x4]

angel

[Paulwa]

God does not want autotonomous worship, he gave each created angel the option. It has to havfe been that way for satan and his legions to choose against God. Satan was a highly created angel in Gods hierachy od angels. Jesus was always with God and not a created being. He was the Word and the Word created all that is. Jesus is an equal part of the Godhead and He is the physical representation of God Himself..they are one in spirit in bond with the Holy Spirit.
My take on this subject. Jesus or God the Father could squash satan like a bug if they so desired...but it is not their nature they are righteousness and justice in perfection. All will be right in the end.
Paul

[RebeccaF]

I've heard before that Satan was a fallen angel, but never knew where in the Bible to find the story. Could someone point me to it? Thanks. :)

[SNPete]

Some people believe that Satan was the brother of Jesus and Jesus was chosen by God to be our Savior instead of his brother, Satan. But others say Satan was an Angel who turned other Angels against God and they followed him. I always thought Angels were created by God to worship Him. That they had no other choice. So, how could Satan, if he were an Angel, turn against God? Was he created? Also, was the serpent who tempted Eve actually Satan?The Mormons teach that Satan and Jesus are brothers. However the Bible teaches that Satan is a fallen angel and Jesus is God.

Here are some links to Mormon sites which explain what they teach.

http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,11-1-13-6,00.html (http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,11-1-13-6,00.html)

This tells of the Mormon Jesus and how Satan is Coequal with Jesus
*********
http://www.frontiernet.net/~bcmmin/term.htm (http://www.frontiernet.net/~bcmmin/term.htm)

Look under Jesus Christ. Jesus is Spirit brother of Satan.

Given the choice, I will believe what the Bible teaches rather than the Mormon religion.

[FreeinChrist]

Some people believe that Satan was the brother of Jesus and Jesus was chosen by God to be our Savior instead of his brother, Satan. But others say Satan was an Angel who turned other Angels against God and they followed him. I always thought Angels were created by God to worship Him. That they had no other choice. So, how could Satan, if he were an Angel, turn against God? Was he created? Also, was the serpent who tempted Eve actually Satan?


What you heard is a belief of the LDS church (Mormons). However, their is no Biblical support for this.
Regarding Satan as an angel who fell:
From blueletterbible:

Eze 28:11Again the word of the LORD came to me saying,
Eze 28:12 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Eze&chapter=28&version=nas#) "Son of man, take up a lamentation over the king of Tyre and say to him, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "You had the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
Eze 28:13 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Eze&chapter=28&version=nas#) "You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering: The ruby, the topaz and the diamond; The beryl, the onyx and the jasper; The lapis lazuli, the turquoise and the emerald; And the gold, the workmanship of your settings and sockets, Was in you. On the day that you were created They were prepared.
Eze 28:14 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Eze&chapter=28&version=nas#) "You were the anointed cherub who covers, And I placed you {there.} You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked in the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:15 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Eze&chapter=28&version=nas#) "You were blameless in your ways From the day you were created Until unrighteousness was found in you.
Eze 28:16 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Eze&chapter=28&version=nas#) "By the abundance of your trade You were internally filled with violence, And you sinned; Therefore I have cast you as profane From the mountain of God. And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub, From the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:17 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Eze&chapter=28&version=nas#) "Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor. I cast you to the ground; I put you before kings, That they may see you.
Eze 28:18 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Eze&chapter=28&version=nas#) "By the multitude of your iniquities, In the unrighteousness of your trade You profaned your sanctuaries. Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you; It has consumed you, And I have turned you to ashes on the earth In the eyes of all who see you.
Eze 28:19 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Eze&chapter=28&version=nas#) "All who know you among the peoples Are appalled at you; You have become terrified And you will cease to be forever.'""

a cherub is an angel
How could he have been right in the presence of God and fallen? Many point to this:

Isa 14:12 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Isa&chapter=14&version=kjv#) How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [how] art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
Isa 14:13 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Isa&chapter=14&version=kjv#) For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
Isa 14:14 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Isa&chapter=14&version=kjv#) I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
Isa 14:15 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Isa&chapter=14&version=kjv#) Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

[walshclan]

Here are some verses that I found about the dark one.

Rev 12:4 His tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that he might devour her child the moment it was born

Isa 14:12 How you have fallen from heaven,
O morning star, son of the dawn!
You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations!

Ezekiel 28:16 So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God,
and I expelled you, O guardian cherub,
from among the fiery stones.


In Him,

Connie

[RebeccaF]

Thanks for the references FreeInChrist and walshclan. :) I'm reading through the Bible for the first time and I'm only up to Jeremiah - I just hadn't made it to Ezekial yet.

[andross77]

Some people believe that Satan was the brother of Jesus and Jesus was chosen by God to be our Savior instead of his brother, Satan. But others say Satan was an Angel who turned other Angels against God and they followed him. I always thought Angels were created by God to worship Him. That they had no other choice. So, how could Satan, if he were an Angel, turn against God? Was he created? Also, was the serpent who tempted Eve actually Satan?

Mormon's believe Jesus and Satan are brothers. Christians do not believe this. Christians believe the bible which tells us that Satan was a created being like the rest of us. He was created as the most beautiful angel in all of heaven. But (at least at the beginning) angels had free wills just like we do and he decided he wanted to usurp God and when he got thrown out of heaven, he deceived many angels (now, demons) and brought them to fight along side him.

To answer your questions:

1. Jesus and Satan are NOT brothers.
2. Satan was created (as a good angel who later sinned)
3. Satan was the serpent in the Garden who deceived Eve.

[StevenL]

Truth:

We really don't know much about who or what Satan is or where he came from. The Scriptures are just not sufficiently forthcoming to say one way or the other on many of the various theories and conjectures that exist within the religious world. Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 do NOT mention satan so any connection between satan and either of these passages is merely speculation.....an ADDITION to what is written.

So I always take with a grain of salt any "I-know-for-sure-so-listen-to-my-answers" teachers. :) No offense at all meant to any of them.

I do know that the Adversary WAS having the power of death......but now he DOESN'T. That's good enough for me.

God bless.

[andross77]

Truth:

We really don't know much about who or what Satan is or where he came from. The Scriptures are just not sufficiently forthcoming to say one way or the other on many of the various theories and conjectures that exist within the religious world. Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 do NOT mention satan so any connection between satan and either of these passages is merely speculation.....an ADDITION to what is written.

So I always take with a grain of salt any "I-know-for-sure-so-listen-to-my-answers" teachers. :) No offense at all meant to any of them.

I do know that the Adversary WAS having the power of death......but now he DOESN'T. That's good enough for me.

God bless.

If you had taken any level of Biblical Exegesis instruction you would understand that Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 are 100% talking about Satan. Saying that it is just a guess is taking the lazy route and not studying it in depth yourself. Sit down and ask any theologian or college level professor of Scripture and they will tell you that it talks about Satan. Not to start an argument here but...

[StevenL]

If you had taken any level of Biblical Exegesis instruction you would understand that Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 are 100% talking about Satan. Saying that it is just a guess is taking the lazy route and not studying it in depth yourself. Sit down and ask any theologian or college level professor of Scripture and they will tell you that it talks about Satan. Not to start an argument here but...
that's sorta funny. :)

[Rediscoveringgod]

Thanx so much for all the answers you all gave. And, yes I have a Mormon background. I have been really studying the Bible and my Mormon friend and I still discuss things, but I just can't believe all the scripture that actually talk about Satan. It was very helpful. Pray for my Mormon friends that they can take that big step and begin to see how much of a cult they are in.

[Tildyd]

Think Satan is just Jesus' shadow.

[DArceri]

Who is Satan?
He was the mightiest, the most beautiful, the most powerful of all of God's angels; and He sinned, we are told in both Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28.

And what was the nature of his sin? It was simply one thought—not an act, not even a word—but a thought to himself when he said in his own heart, "I will be like unto God."

For that he was thrown out of Heaven and took with him a great host of other angels. They are collectively today known as demons. Satan, or the Devil, is simply the leader of those demons. He, like them, is a fallen angel.

[StevenL]

Nice theories....but the Scripture doesn't really SAY all of those things. I enjoy reading people's theories though.

[JeffTheLearner]

Jesus is the ONLY BEGOTTEN of THE FATHER.
Jesus is THE FIRST OF CREATION!
If The Father Created The WORD FIRST, to make the things that exist, and He is FROM the BOSOM of The Father, then....
Jesus IS THE WORD!
Satan is a creation from The WORD!

[DArceri]

Nice theories....but the Scripture doesn't really SAY all of those things. I enjoy reading people's theories though.

WHATS'S your thoughts on ISAIH 14:12-14

12How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

13For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

[jdale72]

Adam was made prefect full of wisdom and prefect in bueaty. God dwelled in that first temple filling with him with all that He was. Adam glowed with the glory of God with nothing held from him, but the knowledge of good and evil. Having such glory he thought it to be his own and corrupted his wisdom by reason of his splendor. It was the serpent who provided God with his faithful service by tempting Eve. That murder and lair from the beginning

[Jeremiah8]

Some people believe that Satan was the brother of Jesus and Jesus was chosen by God to be our Savior instead of his brother, Satan. But others say Satan was an Angel who turned other Angels against God and they followed him. I always thought Angels were created by God to worship Him. That they had no other choice. So, how could Satan, if he were an Angel, turn against God? Was he created? Also, was the serpent who tempted Eve actually Satan?
No satan was neither, he was a cherub and the head worshipper of God, lucifer means "one bearing light". he just became proud (pride b4 the fall anyone?!) and wanted to take God's place as ruler of the universe and be worshipped himself.

Scriptural proof :- Ezekiel 28:11-19 & Isaiah 14:12-14.

[Nadiine]

Some people believe that Satan was the brother of Jesus and Jesus was chosen by God to be our Savior instead of his brother, Satan. But others say Satan was an Angel who turned other Angels against God and they followed him. I always thought Angels were created by God to worship Him. That they had no other choice. So, how could Satan, if he were an Angel, turn against God? Was he created? Also, was the serpent who tempted Eve actually Satan?
Ezekiel 28 has some insight into Lucifer. That he was a created cherub who fell from his position due to pride (wanting to be equal to God).

The bible also tells us that 1/3 of the angels fell with him (in Revelation I believe). So they do have some free will to rebel.

As far as Satan being the serpent... my theory is that Satan (as an angel- turned evil spirit) posessed a snake and spoke thru it to Eve. I'm not 100% convinced that a snake talked literally - but that he inhabited the snake using it to speak thru.
I believe the same of the Donkey that talked - spirits speaking thru an animal rather than it being able to literally talk. (makes more sense to me anyways with what we know of demons using people to speak thru).

Anyways, it's a Mormon belief and it's not biblical at all in any capacity.

[gratefulgrace]

I think it is best to study the scriptures that speak of Christ and Who He is rather than trying to focus on Satan. I recently completed a study on Colossians it is a very good one for telling us who Jesus is. Here are a few scriptures from Chapter 1 but the entire book is great.

Col 1:13 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Col&chapter=1&version=nlt#) For he has rescued us from the one who rules in the kingdom of darkness, and he has brought us into the Kingdom of his dear Son. Col 1:14 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Col&chapter=1&version=nlt#) God has purchased our freedom with his blood and has forgiven all our sins. Col 1:15 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Col&chapter=1&version=nlt#) Christ is the visible image of the invisible God. He existed before God made anything at all and is supreme over all creation. Col 1:16 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Col&chapter=1&version=nlt#) Christ is the one through whom God created everything in heaven and earth. He made the things we can see and the things we can't see-kings, kingdoms, rulers, and authorities. Everything has been created through him and for him. Col 1:17 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Col&chapter=1&version=nlt#) He existed before everything else began, and he holds all creation together. Col 1:18 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Col&chapter=1&version=nlt#) Christ is the head of the church, which is his body. He is the first of all who will rise from the dead, so he is first in everything. Col 1:19 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Col&chapter=1&version=nlt#) For God in all his fullness was pleased to live in Christ, Col 1:20 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Col&chapter=1&version=nlt#) and by him God reconciled everything to himself. He made peace with everything in heaven and on earth by means of his blood on the cross.
Here is a link to our church website were you can listen to great teaching on Colossians for yourself. http://www.canyonheightschurch.ca/multimediaresources-sermons.htm Blessings Jan

[MrSnow]

Although the idea that Jesus and Satan are spirit brothers is in fact a Mormon belief, the belief that Jesus is a created being just like Satan is actually a belief commonly taught by Word of Faith preachers. If you tune into TBN, CBN, etc, you will find a host of teachers telling you that Jesus was created at a point in time, just as Satan was. For anyone who loves to be fed by those people, I strongly encourage you to thoroughly investigate their beliefs.

To clarify somewhat the difference between "created" and "begotten":

John 1 tells us that the Word was in the beginning. It tells us that He was with God. Then it tells us that He was God. It tells us that all things were created by the Word. It tells us that the word became flesh and dwelt among us. Our God and creator took on flesh and was (is) man.

I am not God. This computer is not God. The sun is not God. But we know that all things were created by God. When God created the universe, He made something that was other than Himself. If all in nature were God, then we could bow down and worship anything that we see. But God is completely other than creation. This universe was created by God, but it is not God.

But Christ was begotten by God, not created. "But," you might ask, "what about the fact that Christ is 'first-born' of all creation?" To answer that I would point to the fact that Christ is also "first-born of the dead". "First-born" is a title. It shows dominion. It shows position. The first-born in a family got the birthright. It just tells us that Christ is preeminent over all things. Notice that it does not say that Christ is the "first created thing", or "the first thing to die". Rather, He is the "first-born" of both.

To shed a little light on "begotten", I would turn to Psalm 2. "The LORD said to me, "You are my Son; today have I begotten You." Not only does it say that the LORD (which, in Hebrew, is YHWH, which is often rendered as Yahweh) has begotten the Son, but that this act of begetting is done TODAY. "TODAY have I begotten You". But when is "today"? When did the Father say this to the Son? This "today" is always. It is always "today" with God. The Father has begotten the Son "Today", meaning that the Father has always begotten the Son, and that the Father is always begetting the Son.

Not so with Satan. He was created at a specific point and is a creature. Satan has created nothing. He is not sovereign. He may have more "power" than humans do, but that is still on the order of created "power". He is not God's equal. He is not Christ's equal (who is, of course, God). He is not the yang for the yin.

[gratefulgrace]

Although the idea that Jesus and Satan are spirit brothers is in fact a Mormon belief, the belief that Jesus is a created being just like Satan is actually a belief commonly taught by Word of Faith preachers. If you tune into TBN, CBN, etc, you will find a host of teachers telling you that Jesus was created at a point in time, just as Satan was. For anyone who loves to be fed by those people, I strongly encourage you to thoroughly investigate their beliefs.

To clarify somewhat the difference between "created" and "begotten":

John 1 tells us that the Word was in the beginning. It tells us that He was with God. Then it tells us that He was God. It tells us that all things were created by the Word. It tells us that the word became flesh and dwelt among us. Our God and creator took on flesh and was (is) man.

I am not God. This computer is not God. The sun is not God. But we know that all things were created by God. When God created the universe, He made something that was other than Himself. If all in nature were God, then we could bow down and worship anything that we see. But God is completely other than creation. This universe was created by God, but it is not God.

But Christ was begotten by God, not created. "But," you might ask, "what about the fact that Christ is 'first-born' of all creation?" To answer that I would point to the fact that Christ is also "first-born of the dead". "First-born" is a title. It shows dominion. It shows position. The first-born in a family got the birthright. It just tells us that Christ is preeminent over all things. Notice that it does not say that Christ is the "first created thing", or "the first thing to die". Rather, He is the "first-born" of both.

To shed a little light on "begotten", I would turn to Psalm 2. "The LORD said to me, "You are my Son; today have I begotten You." Not only does it say that the LORD (which, in Hebrew, is YHWH, which is often rendered as Yahweh) has begotten the Son, but that this act of begetting is done TODAY. "TODAY have I begotten You". But when is "today"? When did the Father say this to the Son? This "today" is always. It is always "today" with God. The Father has begotten the Son "Today", meaning that the Father has always begotten the Son, and that the Father is always begetting the Son.

Not so with Satan. He was created at a specific point and is a creature. Satan has created nothing. He is not sovereign. He may have more "power" than humans do, but that is still on the order of created "power". He is not God's equal. He is not Christ's equal (who is, of course, God). He is not the yang for the yin.
Awesome post the point about First Born being a title was also covered in the sermon link I ended my post with in the semon on April 20 Why does the Church Say Jesus is Supreme..
Jan

[david1988]

Hi Rediscoveringgod:

"Some people believe that Satan was the brother of Jesus and Jesus was chosen by God to be our Savior instead of his brother, Satan"

Wow, I have never heard that before. Can you tell me who put forth this theory?

Love in Christ
"Some people believe that Satan was the brother of Jesus and Jesus was chosen by God to be our Savior instead of his brother, Satan"

The Mormons teach that Satan and Jesus are brothers and are offspring of God. They also believe that we are also the offspring of God and we're also brothers of Jesus and Satan. The difference between us and Satan is that we chose to follow God and receive bodies, whereas Satan chose to rebell against God and will never receive a body.

[gratefulgrace]

I hope you don't believe that?

[Simon_Templar]

The scriptures say a little about Satan, but usually in prophetic or metaphorical language so its difficult to know exact details.

The scriptures from Isaiah and Ezekiel have already been mentioned. They are two of the chief sources of information that people rely upon.

Both cases begin as prophecies against a human king, one the king of Tyre, the other the King of Babylon. However, they appear to mix references both to the human king, and also to a spiritual entity, perhaps who was either posessing, or the driving force behind the human king.

For example, between these two references we are told that the entity addressed was #1, in the garden of Eden, #2 walked among the congregation of the most high, #3 was created with amazing attributes compared to being covered in gems, and having musical instraments built right into his throat. #4 is called "the annointed cherub who covers" #5 is referred to with the hebrew word "Halel" (which is sometimes translated as "lucifer"). #6 he is said to have walked on the sides of the north.

These attributes are not applicable to any human being and can only be accurately applied to an angelic being.

For example, the references to being in the congregation of the most high and walking on the sides of the north are both references to being in heaven. One referes to being among the angel hosts, the other is the hebraic idiom for the location of heaven (on the sides of the north).

Obviously no living human walked in the garden of Eden.

Then there is the fact that this entity is referred to as a cherub, which is one of the chief classes of angelic beings in hebrew understanding. The annointed cherub who covers could be a reference to a guardian, but it is also very possibly a reference to the fact that in hebrew understanding there were several arch angels who stood around the throne of God and covered the throne with their wings. This could be an indication that the entity being described here was one of those arch angels.

then there is the fact that the person here is refered to as Halel. Contrary to popular usage, Halel/lucifer is not a proper name. Halel means "praise" in hebrew and it was the name used to describe either the north star, or the morning star. It is used a number of times in hebrew tradition (including the scriptures in the book of Job) to refer to angels.

So we are not being told that the devil's name is "lucifer" which was the Latin name for the morning star.. rather this is a generic description which was commonly applied to any angel. It should read something like "O Morning star, son of the dawn" or "O North star, son of the dawn".

In Job the same word is used when it says "were you there at the dawn of creation when the morning stars sang together."

It seems very likely that Satan was the serpent in the graden, although again not necessarily so. However, Satan is referred to with the title "serpent of old" a couple of times, one being in Revelation 12. This seems to suggest that he probably was the serpent.

However, that is circumstantial evidence at best. Not definitive. The serpent, whatever it was, was also a physical creature, and apparently it was somewhat different than the serpents we know today.

[epyon]

Fallen Angel

[Elife3]

A fallen angel.

[plmarquette]

I've heard before that Satan was a fallen angel, but never knew where in the Bible to find the story. Could someone point me to it? Thanks. :)
Isaiah chapter 14.12-14 oh angel of light why have you fallen .. the " I wills of satan , the reason for the fall "

Revelation 12.1-12 the battle in heaven , and satan and his homies cast down to earth

[GraceLikeRainFallsDown]

The Mormons teach that Satan and Jesus are brothers and are offspring of God. They also believe that we are also the offspring of God and we're also brothers of Jesus and Satan. The difference between us and Satan is that we chose to follow God and receive bodies, whereas Satan chose to rebell against God and will never receive a body.

I had Mormon missionaries at my door last week and asked them about this.

What I got from them was similar to what you are saying. . . they believe that Jesus and Satan are brothers like how we call each other brothers and sisters in Christ. It is on a spiritual level. Since God created every angel and person, they believe we are all children of God and therefore brothers and sisters. So, we are brothers and sisters with all the angels as well. (good or bad) I guess Satan is their "black sheep" of the family. ;)

Now, they may not have represented the official views of the Mormon Church. Since they were missionaries, I could only think their answer was taught to them as their other answers are for everything else I asked them.

[stone]

The reason why mormons can't post in the christians only forums, is because they do not believe the nicene creed.

What i understand about the nicene creed and the time that it was composed, and the reason for it, is something amongst the lines of something written being needed as an article of faith to weed out heretics and heresy, stuff like that.

Makeing J-sus an angel removes him from the triune theoligies.

Angels are refferred to as "the sons of g-d".

What most people don't understand is that the book of revelations is a prophetic book of the end times, that means these are events that have not taken place yet here in our time. Maybe some of the early chapters are now beginning to come to pass, but there is most of it that has not yet. Includeing the prophetic vision of satan being cast to the earth with a third of the stars.

[gratefulgrace]

The reason why mormons can't post in the christians only forums, is because they do not believe the nicene creed.

What i understand about the nicene creed and the time that it was composed, and the reason for it, is something amongst the lines of something written being needed as an article of faith to weed out heretics and heresy, stuff like that.

Makeing J-sus an angel removes him from the triune theoligies.

Angels are refferred to as "the sons of g-d".

What most people don't understand is that the book of revelations is a prophetic book of the end times, that means these are events that have not taken place yet here in our time. Maybe some of the early chapters are now beginning to come to pass, but there is most of it that has not yet. Includeing the prophetic vision of satan being cast to the earth with a third of the stars.


This is not the only interpretation of Revelation. Many bible scholars feel it refers to many eras past present and future (Satans fall being a past event) and is not an exact timeline only to the future. For example it is generally believed that Revelation chapter's 2 and 3 were specific messages to the named churches active at the time. The messages are universal and can be applied today but were specific to their time and circumstances. Some references were veiled as John was under arrest and wanted to make sure that his message got off of Patmos uncensored. Most Old Testament prophetical books are also like that with immediate fulfillment to verify the authenticity of the prophetic utterance and a future fulfillment to look forward to.
Jan

[Godslilgurlalways]

Some people believe that Satan was the brother of Jesus and Jesus was chosen by God to be our Savior instead of his brother, Satan. But others say Satan was an Angel who turned other Angels against God and they followed him. I always thought Angels were created by God to worship Him. That they had no other choice. So, how could Satan, if he were an Angel, turn against God? Was he created? Also, was the serpent who tempted Eve actually Satan?
He was an angel his name was lusafer(spelled wrong I think). He was on of the prettiest angels there. I think at one point you could even consider him one of Jesus' closet angels at one point and time.If I remember the story about it correctly he had such a beautiful voice.He rebelled against God and he wanted to try and take over the kingdom of God.He made the choice to rebel.Him and 1/3 of the angels that were following him and all.So he was cast out/departed from God and never to return.

[stone]

ok, here is more information on this topic straight from scripture.

A good place to start:


Genesis 3:14-15 14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: 15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

***

What i would point out here is the seed. Notice, Satan will have children as well.

***

6:1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

[gratefulgrace]

I am not sure of your point. Is not satan's seed those that rebel against the God of Heaven and believe the LIE that "YE SHALL BE AS GOD knowing good and evil". As we know from ancient history there were definitely more of those around than the few that chose to believe the initial promise given to Adam. The message was getting lost. Hence God calls for the flood and saved only the small remnant from Noah's family. I do not believe it is supernatural beings having sex with women, but those appointed by God (descendansts of Seth) to carry His message to the world who are falling away from God. Through the flood God narrows down the playing field and eventually ends up working exclusively through the descendants of Abraham to bring the Messiah.(THE SEED)

[dvd_holc]

Do we look to the flesh for our relationship with God? No, for not all of Abraham's flesh was accounted as the seed, but those who were elected through grace and mercy of God. As it is written: Then He said, "Take now your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I shall tell you."

[stone]

I am not sure of your point. Is not satan's seed those that rebel against the God of Heaven and believe the LIE that "YE SHALL BE AS GOD knowing good and evil". As we know from ancient history there were definitely more of those around than the few that chose to believe the initial promise given to Adam. The message was getting lost. Hence God calls for the flood and saved only the small remnant from Noah's family. I do not believe it is supernatural beings having sex with women, but those appointed by God (descendansts of Seth) to carry His message to the world who are falling away from God. Through the flood God narrows down the playing field and eventually ends up working exclusively through the descendants of Abraham to bring the Messiah.(THE SEED)


By reading this, you acknowledge that you do not accept the written sciptures as authentic, and know this, what is written in the 1st 5 books, was written down word for word from the l-rd, to the ear of Moses and onto a scroll. IF you do not believe what is written in scriptures, then you have chosen not to believe the scriptures.

[stone]

Job 1:6-12 6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. 7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. 8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? 9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought? 10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land. 11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face. 12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

***

Notice that satan is not confined, and that he is with the other sons of g-d and travels with them.

[Simon_Templar]

Somethings to consider in regard to Satan and the fall from heaven in revelation etc.

Jesus, just before his crucifixion made the statement "I beheld Satan fall from heaven like lightening". Then when he was in the Garden (if memory serves) he said the evil one was coming.

Then later in the epistles, we are told that Satan prowls the earth like a roaring Lion in great wrath because he knows his time is short.

All of that suggests to me that the battle in heaven, described in revelation 12 took place around the time of the ascension and that sometime around then, Satan was cast down to the earth.

[dvd_holc]

Somethings to consider in regard to Satan and the fall from heaven in revelation etc.

Jesus, just before his crucifixion made the statement "I beheld Satan fall from heaven like lightening". Then when he was in the Garden (if memory serves) he said the evil one was coming.

Then later in the epistles, we are told that Satan prowls the earth like a roaring Lion in great wrath because he knows his time is short.

All of that suggests to me that the battle in heaven, described in revelation 12 took place around the time of the ascension and that sometime around then, Satan was cast down to the earth.Jesus' commit "fall from heaven" is from Luke 10:18...which was after the return of His Sanhedrin (70 or in some translations 72 elders) from there mission to announcing the kingdom of God with a call for repentence and the displayed ability to cast out demons which they were unable to do a couple verses before....also, there other battles mentioned such in Daniel 10:13.

Further, Satan prowling is derived around is from Job and Psalms (55, 59, and 104).

And I also affirm that it was vindication and enthrownment of Jesus that casted Satan from the heavenly realms of rule. Now, Jesus is the King and is in the process of submission of the whole creation back to the way God intended.

[stone]

Mt 25:41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

notice he speaks of this prophetically, this has yet to come to pass. Also notice, satan has angels, seed.

[stone]

38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.


Above angels is in red, why would an angel persuade against the word of g-d? We are warned to not listen to angels if they give a message not inline with the scriptures. now you know why.

[garfieldthecatman]

Some people believe that Satan was the brother of Jesus and Jesus was chosen by God to be our Savior instead of his brother, Satan. But others say Satan was an Angel who turned other Angels against God and they followed him. I always thought Angels were created by God to worship Him. That they had no other choice. So, how could Satan, if he were an Angel, turn against God? Was he created? Also, was the serpent who tempted Eve actually Satan?

John 3:16 "God so loved the world he gave his ONE and ONLY son, that whoever believes in him will not perish but have everlasting life." That's only one example out of butt loads that Jesus is referred to as the ONE and ONLY of God.

[gratefulgrace]

By reading this, you acknowledge that you do not accept the written sciptures as authentic, and know this, what is written in the 1st 5 books, was written down word for word from the l-rd, to the ear of Moses and onto a scroll. IF you do not believe what is written in scriptures, then you have chosen not to believe the scriptures.

Why on earth would you make such an accusation against me. That is entirely untrue I have no idea what you are basing it on either. We are called Sons of God and we are not angelic beings.Tthere is debate about that passage of scripture and you are entitled to believe it and interpret it in that manner (actual demons had sex with women) but I choose not to. Peace Jan

[gratefulgrace]

Do we look to the flesh for our relationship with God? No, for not all of Abraham's flesh was accounted as the seed, but those who were elected through grace and mercy of God. As it is written: Then He said, "Take now your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I shall tell you."
Yes indeed well said, again God was narrowing down and preparing the specific family for Messiah to arise from. Peace Jan

[stone]

Why on earth would you make such an accusation against me. That is entirely untrue I have no idea what you are basing it on either. We are called Sons of God and we are not angelic beings.Tthere is debate about that passage of scripture and you are entitled to believe it and interpret it in that manner (actual demons had sex with women) but I choose not to. Peace Jan

Where is this debate?

[stone]

Heb 13:2Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.

[stringer]

wats going on

[salida]

I would ask myself where in the Bible does it say this?

The bible does say that satan is a fallen angel and Jesus is the Son of God.

The brother thing is a mormon doctrine.

[Simon_Templar]

Why on earth would you make such an accusation against me. That is entirely untrue I have no idea what you are basing it on either. We are called Sons of God and we are not angelic beings.Tthere is debate about that passage of scripture and you are entitled to believe it and interpret it in that manner (actual demons had sex with women) but I choose not to. Peace Jan
We are indeed referred to as sons of God. However, in the OT the hebrew phrase B'nai Ha Elohim (sons of God) is only ever used of angels. The context and the linguistics, as well as other biblical, and extra biblical sources both tend to support the idea that angels are being referred to not humans.

Up until around 200-300 AD it was believed by both Jewish and Christian scholars that Genesis 6 referred to angels. Around 200-300 in both Jewish and Christian circles there was a shift of teaching on this because famous scholars on both sides began to teach that it was referring to men rather than angels.

This shift in teaching, in my opinion, however, was not based on evidence from the text or anything like that, but rather on the opinion that the idea of angels interbreeding with humans was unacceptable.

Plainly put, there is no solid evidence or reason from the text, or history to argue that Genesis six refers to men instead of angels. The only real basis for arguing this has been basically that some people find the idea too incredible.

[gratefulgrace]

Gen 6:1 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Gen&chapter=6&version=niv#) When men began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them,
Gen 6:2 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Gen&chapter=6&version=niv#) the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose.
Gen 6:3 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Gen&chapter=6&version=niv#) Then the Lord said, “My Spirit will not contend with man forever, for he is mortal; his days will be a hundred and twenty years.”
Gen 6:4 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Gen&chapter=6&version=niv#) The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.
Gen 6:5 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Gen&chapter=6&version=niv#) The Lord saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time.
Gen 6:6 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Gen&chapter=6&version=niv#) The Lord was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain.
Gen 6:7 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Gen&chapter=6&version=niv#) So the Lord said, “I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth—men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air—for I am grieved that I have made them.”
Gen 6:8 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Gen&chapter=6&version=niv#) But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord.
You are correct in admitting that there has over the years been some debate about these scriptures. Sons of God may have refered to Angels but did it also refer to demons. If God was angry enough to provide the consequence of the flood to mankind and all he had created on the earth would HE not also have said something about dealing with these Sons of God for their sinful behaviour. If in fact it was was fallen angels (aka demons) and not the angels that retained their first estate in true fidelity to God, would they then also be refered to as Sons of God. Just asking.
Also I apologize to the IP as I think we have strayed fromthe topic of this thread and will say no more on this topic. You can reply to me with a PM if you wish. Jan

[gratefulgrace]

Mt 25:41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

notice he speaks of this prophetically, this has yet to come to pass. Also notice, satan has angels, seed.
I am still not convinced that these are anything but the 1/3 of the host of heaven that fell when Satan rebelled against the Lord (see link below). http://blueletterbible.org/faq/nbi/41.html


And for those that follow him in his rebellion here on earth see below quote also from the Blue Letter bible web page.
2. Satan Became The Author Of Sin

Because he was the first sinner, he is the author of, and basis for, all subsequent sin. Jesus said to the religious rulers of His day.

You are from your father the Devil, and you choose to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies (John 8:44).

Satan can not truly create anything only God is the Creator and has given the power to create new human life to man. I do not believe scripture teaches that He has given that power to Satan. Even Jesus stated that the angels neither marry or are given in marriage so how can they truly have seed.
Peace Jan

[Eleknar]

I believe that Satan was an Angel created by God. He has free will, just like all the other angels, which is why he was able to rebel and take other angels with him. I also believe he was the serpent who deceived Eve in the garden.

[ozell]

hi all :wave:

satan is a angel created by Jesus

Ezek 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

13: Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

14: Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

15: Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

16: By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

17: Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.


Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!


Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

ozell

[biblelife]

Jesus has not brothers because he is God. Devil is creation of God.

[biblelife]

Here is Bible text about devil: "You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering, carnelian, topaz, and jasper, chrysolite, beryl, and onyx, sapphire, carbuncle, and emerald; and wrought in gold were your settings and your engravings. On the day that you were created they were prepared. With an anointed guardian cherub I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God; in the midst of the stones of fire you walked. You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created, till iniquity was found in you." Ezekiel 28,13-15

[DavidPresently]

Some people believe that Satan was the brother of Jesus and Jesus was chosen by God to be our Savior instead of his brother, Satan. But others say Satan was an Angel who turned other Angels against God and they followed him. I always thought Angels were created by God to worship Him. That they had no other choice. So, how could Satan, if he were an Angel, turn against God? Was he created? Also, was the serpent who tempted Eve actually Satan?

The Scriptures clearly declare Jesus (Yahshua (Joshua) in Hebrew and Yeshua in Aramaic) to be the "only begotten" of the Father.

Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and tabernacled among us. And we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and of truth.

Joh 1:18 No one has seen God at any time; the Only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

1Jo 4:9 In this the love of God was revealed in us, because God sent His only begotten Son into the world that we might live through Him.

Zec 12:10 And I will pour on the house of David, and on the people of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of prayers. And they shall look on Me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for Him, as one mourns for his only son, and shall be bitter over Him, as the bitterness over the first-born.

The Hebrew word there for "only"

H3173
יחיד
yâchîyd
yaw-kheed'
From H3161; properly united, that is, sole; by implication beloved; also lonely; (feminine) the life (as not to be replace): - darling, desolate, only (child, son), solitary.

The Greek word in the NT references for "only"

G3439
μονογενής
monogenēs
mon-og-en-ace
From G3441 and G1096; only born, that is, sole: - only (begotten, child).

This same word is used in Hebrews regard in Isaac, however.

Heb 11:17 By faith Abraham, being tested, offered up Isaac. And he who had received the promises offered up his only-begotten son,

This helps us to understand that Jesus is not the "only" but the unique, being the only exact Son, but that other sons exist.

Job 1:6 MKJV And a day came when the sons of God came to present themselves before Jehovah. And Satan also came among them.

Job 2:1 MKJV And it happened that a day came when the sons of God came to present themselves before Jehovah. And Satan also came among them to present himself before Jehovah.

Job 38:7 MKJV when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Psalms 82:6 MKJV I have said, You are gods; and all of you sons of the Most High.

John 1:12 MKJV But as many as received Him, He gave to them authority to become the children of God, to those who believe on His name,

Romans 8:29 Webster For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the first-born among many brethren.


The point being to show that there are different "sons of God," but there is only ONE Son of God in the since that Jesus is.

It is very difficult to say what Satan was before being such (Satan is a Hebrew word and means "adversary"). We are never actually told directly what he was, if ever anything different. Certain passages that don't actually mention Satan (adversary) are taken to be about him. Such is even given a name "Lucifer," though that name never appears in the Hebrew Scriptures of those accounts.

In Isaiah 14:12, the word in Hebrew translated as "Lucifer" is actually the name "Haylel" and means literally to shine forth.

Was "Haylel" who Satan was before? It doesn't say in the Scriptures, it is assumed in tradition. In the Scriptures, in that context in Isaiah, the king of Babylon, a man, was being spoken about in figurative (parable type) language as a prophecy against him.

I'm not saying that Satan wasn't an angel before, I'm saying that scripturally, it is very difficult to PROVE it. It really isn't important and the Scriptures don't clarify such because God is trying to tell us that what happened before the first Adam was created, and what happens after "the new heavens and new earth" is not what we are to focus on - we are to focus on NOW and what God wants from us in this age.

Spending a lot of time in concern about such theories, is certainly a waste of our time. And arguing over it is even more a waste of time.

We can simply trust that the Father knows who Satan is and what his purpose is for now, and that God is Sovereign over all. Job 1 clearly shows that Satan has to get his boundaries of operation from God, and does not have free reign. If he had free reign, he'd have killed us all by now. We should remember this and magnify God, not Satan. People who focus too much on Satan and worry about him are magnifying him and his power, not God and his ultimate Power.

Our attention is to be on Jesus, and follow him. We only need to know how to deal with overcoming the serpent now, as we have been given every weapon to overcome him and reign with Jesus and our Father in heaven.

This is what is unique about the Son, Jesus, and the rest of us who are born of the Spirit and considered sons, and those mentioned such as in Job that in some way are also considered sons.

Colossians 1:13-17 MKJV For He has delivered us from the power of darkness and has translated us into the kingdom of His dear Son; (14) in whom we have redemption through His blood, the remission of sins. (15) who is the image of the invisible God, the First-born of all creation. (16) For all things were created in Him, the things in the heavens, and the things on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers, all things were created through Him and for Him. (17) And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist.

That is all we need to know. What we are clearly told about the one we are to focus on, the one all the Scriptures speak about and point us to, the Son of God our Savior and Lord, the only Way to the Father for us.

We don't need to make theories up on unimportant subjects. There is one Son of God, firstborn of all creation, who created all things and for whom all things were created (in this creation being spoken of). Every other son is thus under him in every way, and there is no equal to him, from any other class of "sons of God."

[sonofkorah]

Some people believe that Satan was the brother of Jesus and Jesus was chosen by God to be our Savior instead of his brother, Satan. But others say Satan was an Angel who turned other Angels against God and they followed him. I always thought Angels were created by God to worship Him. That they had no other choice. So, how could Satan, if he were an Angel, turn against God? Was he created? Also, was the serpent who tempted Eve actually Satan?


That's a very good Morman question. However, morman's aren't allowed to post in the Christian only section.

[rhettsmum]

Um, if you'd read the whole thread, you'd see that the OP is a former Mormon, who is trying to reconcile what she has been taught previously with what the Bible actually teaches.


I really have no new scriptures to add, but I just wanted to say to the OP that I think it's great that you want to learn more about Jesus. God wants us to know him intimately - how else do we come to truly love? Also, it's wonderful to talk with other believers about any questions you have, as long as you remember that the truest answers are contained in God's Word, the Bible. Don't neglect reading them for yourself! And pray, pray, pray for God to give you clarity and understanding. Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find it.

[sonofkorah]

Um, if you'd read the whole thread, you'd see that the OP is a former Mormon, who is trying to reconcile what she has been taught previously with what the Bible actually teaches.


I really have no new scriptures to add, but I just wanted to say to the OP that I think it's great that you want to learn more about Jesus. God wants us to know him intimately - how else do we come to truly love? Also, it's wonderful to talk with other believers about any questions you have, as long as you remember that the truest answers are contained in God's Word, the Bible. Don't neglect reading them for yourself! And pray, pray, pray for God to give you clarity and understanding. Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find it.

I didn't care to read the whole thread and I am a former morman myself.

I answered the OP. Do you have anything else snotty to add?

Do you have some sort of insight to the question I might have been unaware of? Are you somehow more qualified to answer than I am?

[genestealerbroodlord]

Thanx so much for all the answers you all gave. And, yes I have a Mormon background. I have been really studying the Bible and my Mormon friend and I still discuss things, but I just can't believe all the scripture that actually talk about Satan. It was very helpful. Pray for my Mormon friends that they can take that big step and begin to see how much of a cult they are in.

Hi there.:wave:

I

[genestealerbroodlord]

That's a very good Morman question. However, morman's aren't allowed to post in the Christian only section.

I

[jive4005]

It sure would have been easier for God if He hadn't handed out all that free-will. To us, to the angels...

But He wanted some somebody(s) with some similarites to Him... so, voila!

The deal with satan is... he became (yes BECAME... he didn't start out this way) prideful. He thought he was too good to obey God. He hates us now and wants to get us to worship him, just like we worship God. The liar is recruiting followers so he can flaunt them in God's face. Truth.

Don't go jumping on religiuous stuff and start confusing it with God.

satan is a wiley but toothless evil fallen angel...
Jesus the Christ (the annointed and chosen of God) is God's own Son. All else is folly.

[Totalalisa]

I have been a christian for 10 years and have found that evry person has a difrent walk with God.

For me...I believe God gives me all the answeres I need in the Bibel. The Bibel says satan was an angel that had fallen. And because of my faith that is all I need to know.
Please go to the Bibel. Make a study of it for yourself. I hope you find the answeres your heart is looking for.
the Bible is the word and the word is the truth

[Spiritofprophecy]

Greetings in the Name of Jesus:

I pray my words do not offend any, but this is a controversial subject.

Satan it is written. Is "the Spirit of Disobedience".


Lucifer which is written Only in one place in Scriptures. Isaiah 14;12; and in Isaiah 14;16 It says Lucifer is a Man. If any man reads all of Isaiah 14 in total. With open mind seeking interpretation of spirit: I have not doubt they will determine Lucifer is " King of babylon" and " He is a man". its written" How hast thou fallen from heaven O Lucifer". As the spirit tells me, Gods will is done in heaven " lords Prayer". And if Gods will is done in heaven angels falling would be a contradiction unto sound doctrine; but As All Christians should know; Christians can have names blotted out of book of life. God and Jesus dwells in the hearts of Men of God, and those who then deny God once saved. Would be as if they Fell from heaven. Which is Lucifer man who renounced Jesus, being once Christian.

I love those of christ, And ask they be offended not by my words; and know I did not intend to offend any man.

May the Love of Jesus be upon this room.

[sonofkorah]

Is there anywhere on this forum, mormons would be welcome to post?

Im asking, as i am an ex-mormon and know a lot of mormons who would like to talk to non-mormon christians, in a friendly, welcoming place, where they wouldnt be bashed.

I still love my mormon friends and would love for them to be part of this wonderful forum, even if there where parts of it they couldnt post.

As I stated earlier, I am an ex-morman myself. There apparently are places on this website that all can mix into, but to be honest I'm not real sure how all that works.

Here's one for you, and perhaps you will understand. When I became a morman, and more specifically, when I was investigating becoming a morman, do you know what the primary drive was for me? I belived that if there was any such thing as a God, that He was alive and working still among His creation.

Do you see the signifigance? Every "christian" church I had been exposed to up until that point, had basically taught that God was here two thousand years ago, but now He's dead. Here's the instructions He left...do this and you go to heaven, don't do them and you go to hell.

Fortunately I knew that if there is such a thing as God, then He lives forever. ;) :)

[rhettsmum]

I didn't care to read the whole thread and I am a former morman myself.

I answered the OP. Do you have anything else snotty to add?

Do you have some sort of insight to the question I might have been unaware of? Are you somehow more qualified to answer than I am?
Wow, sonofkorah, where did that rudeness come from? I don't believe I'm the one being snotty here. I never said I am 'more qualified' to answer any question than you, but maybe you should get all the information before you start shooting off your mouth. You did not, in fact, answer the question the OP was asking. You just told her not to post here because she's Mormon, which isn't accurate.

I hope you aren't this rude to everybody you come in contact with.

[Spiritofprophecy]

the Bible is the word and the word is the truth
greetings in the name of Jesus

In reference to Post;. about falling angels. or Satan as an angel. No where is it written. KJV

This interpretation; which is wrong, comes from Isaiah 14; and to revelations 12. Both of these are sealed last day prophecy chapters, Interpreted in middle ages, in context of falling angel Dante's inferno lexicon;

Now if " thy Kingdom come thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven" ( Lords prayer) meaning Gods will is done in heaven. which Falling angels and rebellion in heaven would contradict;

"How hast thou fallen from heaven O lucifer" Isaiah 14;12, is Question; and Mystery, ; How did this happen? and Isaiah 14;16 Says Lucifer is a man.

You Must read all of Isaiah 14 to discern. Christians know people fall from heaven; once christians then falling away, and termed fallen from heaven. Lucifer is Man fallen from heaven once christian, who then through corrupting power renounces Jesus.

Rev 12;1 is woman of 12 star crown. this is 12 tribes of Israel ..woman has child " rule earth with rod of Iron" Jesus.verse 5. The dragon is satan, which Jesus defeats on cross. Same defeat;Same Satan. This defeat is another view, of same defeat of Satan by Jesus. rev 12 is very symbolistic Prophecy.

Only man rebels and sins. and Satan represents that "war in heaven".

" Satan is the spirit of disobedience". and Satan means Accuser. And its that power in heaven, which was cast down. God listens not to accusations anymore, but sees through Jesus blood.

I speak this doctrine: of Gods will in heaven. As a Classic view and Held by Jesus and all jews in classic period, proven by him calling Peter Satan. Classic jewish and Jesus doctrine of Satan as falling angel existed not. Its Middle ages Christian new doctrine from Interpretations of prophecies sealed from true interpretations until end times; which doctrines not rooted in classic Jewish doctrines did arise. Jews never had satan as angel persona, but as evil tempting spirit dwelling in men. Called " spirit of disobedience unto God". and why Jesus did Call peter Satan.

By christians Not knowing the true persona of Satan. Satan becomes the great deceiver. Using mans own desire of denial of self evil, to form New doctrine that mans disobedience can find a scapegoat.

Its written that God shall not allow man to be tempted by more than what is common unto man. 1 cor 13;10
This is very controversial to some. I pray my words of Opinion, do not offend any.
May God bless C.F. and all who use it.

[Ben12]

Now the religious system teaches that Ez 28:13 and Is 14:12 are speaking of Satan and the KJ Bible is the only version that uses the word Lucifer. It is not even a Hebrew word.


Moffat translation says "What a fall from heaven O Shining star of the dawns" Rotherham"How hast thou fallen from heaven, O shining One, son of the dawn!"Amplified "how are you fallen from heaven O light-bearer and day star, son of the morning!"

2 Pet 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts.


Rev 22:16 I JESUS have sent mine angel to testify unto you these thing sin the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

The word Lucifer in the Strong's Concordance says it is a title applied to the king of Babylon. The word itself means the morning star. In the natural it is speaking of a King and in the spiritual it is speaking of Adam. The word MAN means a mortal, an individual, a male person. I could rest my case on just that one verse alone, but why would Peter under the direction of the Holy Spirit compare Jesus as the Day star with Lucifer the Devil?
It is the erroneous translation of the KJ that infers such.
Lucifer was never an Arc Angel, he was a MAN. (Satan is a spirit.)

Is14:15 says he was brought down to hell, (sheol, place of the dead) the side of the pit. Satan is never thrown in the grave because he has no part in a natural death as he is a spiritual being. Only MAN dies and is placed in a grave. Evil spirits only go to a place called Tartarus and Satan the high ranking one is sent to the lake of fire.( which is not hell)

When Adam was placed in Eden he was perfect. When Adam fell he fell from a lofty realm. He was cast out of that realm. Adam because of the fall caused Kingdoms to shake and made the world as a wilderness. The fall brought us down into this realm of vanity. Adam was the1st Adam and Jesus is the last Adam.

Even the Jews knew the true name of Satan. They called him Beelzebub. Satan was created a tool

Isaiah 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his works; and I have created the waster to destroy. (See God created Satan)


Jesus in Jn 8:44 Said Ye are of your father, the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the BEGINNING and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar and the father of it. John writes in

1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the BEGINNING. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil..


I cannot see that Satan had two beginnings. The word beginning in the Greek means beginning. Not first he was an angel, second he was a murder and liar. Which one was he? Do we take the RCC's translation or do we take the correct translation of the word Lucifer?

In the beginning Man was full of light and Satan was full of darkness. God is not working on a plan B. He has had a plan and a purpose from the beginning and Satan was a part of that plan. Simply a tool. Never an angel.

This is my stand and I feel that you have a choice to believe the word of God or to accept a false doctrine made up in the minds of religious men.

[Spiritofprophecy]

Greetings in the name of Jesus;.

Now if Satan or Lucifer are angels which fell from heaven or there is rebellion in heaven.

If either of these two are true;. then I can say without reservation and doubt; that the Lords prayer is false;. Saying Gods will is done in heaven. for if rebellion exists in heaven, and angels fall from heaven;. then that is not Gods will...and Its also not 2000 years of jewish tradition. But new doctrine of Middle ages concepts.

Lucifer is a man. Satan is spirit; Infact Satan is Peter says Jesus. As all men are Satan when spirit of Satan is in them. Satan spirit in lucifer Once christian, caused Lucifer to fall from heaven, as man, who renounce his former estate " Jesus" to placate his desires for world power, claiming himself God. Jesus did not contradict Jewish concepts and precepts of Satan. but afirmed them. and fulfilled the Law. And defeated Satans power in heaven. how? by Not sinning and obeying Gods will always. And yet then becomming sin and dying on cross being made sin for all. And by this breaking sins hold on death eternal, through his sinless blood. Which Only defeated Satans power in heaven to Accuse man. Satan on earth alone to deceive man. He does a good Job. 1 cor. 10;12 " there hath no temptation taken youi but such as is common to man" also.." the root of all evil, is the love of money". Explain How Satan Loves money without man.?


I pray my words do not offend any.
God bless C.F. and all who use it.

[GraceLikeRainFallsDown]

then that is not Gods will..


Lucifer is a man. Satan is spirit;

I pray my words do not offend any.
God bless C.F. and all who use it.

How do you know what God's will is? It may very well have been God's will for Satan to fall.

Lucifer is a Bible translation error not a man. I may not be understanding what you are trying to say here. Under your thoery (if I understand what you were saying) Satan enters in and out of all humans. How does he enter a Christian when the Holy Spirit is already dwelling there. It seems like it would be too crowded.;)

Please clarify if I misunderstood you.

[LeliAne]

Although the idea that Jesus and Satan are spirit brothers is in fact a Mormon belief, the belief that Jesus is a created being just like Satan is actually a belief commonly taught by Word of Faith preachers. If you tune into TBN, CBN, etc, you will find a host of teachers telling you that Jesus was created at a point in time, just as Satan was. For anyone who loves to be fed by those people, I strongly encourage you to thoroughly investigate their beliefs.

To clarify somewhat the difference between "created" and "begotten":

John 1 tells us that the Word was in the beginning. It tells us that He was with God. Then it tells us that He was God. It tells us that all things were created by the Word. It tells us that the word became flesh and dwelt among us. Our God and creator took on flesh and was (is) man.

I am not God. This computer is not God. The sun is not God. But we know that all things were created by God. When God created the universe, He made something that was other than Himself. If all in nature were God, then we could bow down and worship anything that we see. But God is completely other than creation. This universe was created by God, but it is not God.

But Christ was begotten by God, not created. "But," you might ask, "what about the fact that Christ is 'first-born' of all creation?" To answer that I would point to the fact that Christ is also "first-born of the dead". "First-born" is a title. It shows dominion. It shows position. The first-born in a family got the birthright. It just tells us that Christ is preeminent over all things. Notice that it does not say that Christ is the "first created thing", or "the first thing to die". Rather, He is the "first-born" of both.

To shed a little light on "begotten", I would turn to Psalm 2. "The LORD said to me, "You are my Son; today have I begotten You." Not only does it say that the LORD (which, in Hebrew, is YHWH, which is often rendered as Yahweh) has begotten the Son, but that this act of begetting is done TODAY. "TODAY have I begotten You". But when is "today"? When did the Father say this to the Son? This "today" is always. It is always "today" with God. The Father has begotten the Son "Today", meaning that the Father has always begotten the Son, and that the Father is always begetting the Son.

Not so with Satan. He was created at a specific point and is a creature. Satan has created nothing. He is not sovereign. He may have more "power" than humans do, but that is still on the order of created "power". He is not God's equal. He is not Christ's equal (who is, of course, God). He is not the yang for the yin.
Welldone brother and Amen

[gratefulgrace]

If not a created being "angel" then what exactly. Not created eternal? Who/what then is Satan exactly Spiritofprophecy?. I thought satan just meant adversary and it is not necessarily a given name maybe Lucifer is his given name. gg

[Simon_Templar]

I wrote this previously, but it seems the same stuff is being rehashed so I'll post it again.

Lucifer is not a proper name. It is a latin idiom which was used to translate the Jewish idiom "halel" which meant "morning star". Lucifer was the latin word for the morning star. It literally means "light bearer".

The hebrew term "halel" is used as a descriptive term for Angels. To my knowledge it is never used of a man.

For instance the same term is used in Job to describe the angel choirs that sang at the creation of the world.

So in the Latin translation of the bible, the word lucifer was used to translate halel. It was just a fluke of usage that people began to think of Lucifer as a proper name for the devil, rather than what it actually meant "morning star", which was an angelic reference.

As for 'traditional hebrew views' on the subject. The hebrew lore dealing with angels is a little confused and I'm not an expert, but the most likely candidate for "the devil" would probably be the Angel Samael. The devil is possibly sometimes also refered to as Ashmadai in hebrew legend which is where the latin name "Asmodeus" comes from.

[Spiritofprophecy]

I wrote this previously, but it seems the same stuff is being rehashed so I'll post it again.

Lucifer is not a proper name. It is a latin idiom which was used to translate the Jewish idiom "halel" which meant "morning star". Lucifer was the latin word for the morning star. It literally means "light bearer".

The hebrew term "halel" is used as a descriptive term for Angels. To my knowledge it is never used of a man.

For instance the same term is used in Job to describe the angel choirs that sang at the creation of the world.

So in the Latin translation of the bible, the word lucifer was used to translate halel. It was just a fluke of usage that people began to think of Lucifer as a proper name for the devil, rather than what it actually meant "morning star", which was an angelic reference.

As for 'traditional hebrew views' on the subject. The hebrew lore dealing with angels is a little confused and I'm not an expert, but the most likely candidate for "the devil" would probably be the Angel Samael. The devil is possibly sometimes also refered to as Ashmadai in hebrew legend which is where the latin name "Asmodeus" comes from.
Greetings in the Name of Jesus:

If what you say is true of Lucifer hebrew roots. Then Lucifer would be thought as a Angel, which he is not in hebrew or any hebrew writing: And as one who lived and studied in Israel for three Years. I know This is Not a Jewish doctrine of Isaiah 14; And to my understanding of Day Star it is of earthly derivation; and denotes Great man of earth. which would completely align with Antichrist Concept of Lucifer. As would each and every Scripture in Isaiah 14. Also correlate and match deeds and action of the end time antichrist Man. Not to Mention that it clearly says in Isaiah 14;16 that he is a man. But this as all Prophecies most Hebrews read but believe are sealed, Only Christians through Jesus interpretations of many prophecies continue in this context of interpretation; But all true interpretation must not contradict sound established doctrine. Such as Gods will is done in heaven (Lords Prayer). Omitting falling angels. Or rebellion in heaven. Interpretation of this Kind began in the middle ages, and have not Jewish roots, and Interpretations of prophecies not interpreted by Jesus, which denotes Last day sealed prophecies which are the only Prophecies not interpreted by Jesus are last days sealed by God. Which Isaiah 14 is last day sealed prophecy. 11th century is not last day, and unsealing of prophecies not interpreted by Jesus.

Very controversial subject to many; I pray no one takes offense at my words. God bless C.F. and all who use it.

[gratefulgrace]

But didn't Satan come before God in Heaven in the story of Job. If he is not an actual entity who was that then. And again my question if not an angel then WHAT. Thanks Jan

[JolieHeart]

Interesting thread and posts.

[Spiritofprophecy]

But didn't Satan come before God in Heaven in the story of Job. If he is not an actual entity who was that then. And again my question if not an angel then WHAT. Thanks Jan
greetings in the name of Jesus:

Someone mentioned Job and satan. Job was way after Adam and eve. And after Noah. I believe.

But to stick to the point: There is only One true power in the universe, and its God: which I claim is also Jesus.

This One super power God; allowed One thing alone to be out side Gods will; and its Man. Now man Can still do Gods will or disobey. And the disobedient man or spirit which desires to be disobedient. Is called " spirit of Satan" So any time man thinks or does anything out side what Gods will is for man. Its Satans spirit in man. And its the Only Only place Satan resides. And God created this evil through man. And Only Man does evil. As " the root of all evil is the Love of money". Which Only man can love and does love. Its also the dragon. Mans love of money which give power to the beast. " Capitalism" or image of the beast, dollar pound yen,etc. As scripture of money says " it is, and is not, and yet is."

And every temptation of satan or evil of man, is rooted in mans desires of love of money. 1 cor. 10;13 " there hath no temptation taken you but such that is common unto man". think about that. Its all common out of man.

To say some super power evil makes us do things is wrong, and is a cop out on our own lack of control. We know we are responsible for our own evil. Which scripture confirms.

I pray no one takes offense at my words.
God bless Christian Forum and all who use it.

[gratefulgrace]

greetings in the name of Jesus:

Someone mentioned Job and satan. Job was way after Adam and eve. And after Noah. I believe.

But to stick to the point: There is only One true power in the universe, and its God: which I claim is also Jesus.

This One super power God; allowed One thing alone to be out side Gods will; and its Man. Now man Can still do Gods will or disobey. And the disobedient man or spirit which desires to be disobedient. Is called " spirit of Satan" So any time man thinks or does anything out side what Gods will is for man. Its Satans spirit in man. And its the Only Only place Satan resides. And God created this evil through man. And Only Man does evil. As " the root of all evil is the Love of money". Which Only man can love and does love. Its also the dragon. Mans love of money which give power to the beast. " Capitalism" or image of the beast, dollar pound yen,etc. As scripture of money says " it is, and is not, and yet is."

And every temptation of satan or evil of man, is rooted in mans desires of love of money. 1 cor. 10;13 " there hath no temptation taken you but such that is common unto man". think about that. Its all common out of man.

To say some super power evil makes us do things is wrong, and is a cop out on our own lack of control. We know we are responsible for our own evil. Which scripture confirms.

I pray no one takes offense at my words.
God bless Christian Forum and all who use it.

I am sorry that I didn't phrase my question more clearly. If you read the story of Job it says that Satan actually came and stood before God in heaven. I was responding to the argument earlier(not sure who by) that satan is only used in the form of human evil like the spirit of evil inhabits mankind or something like that to do his will. I contend he is a created supernatural being that can move as he wills albeit ultimitely under GOD's control. gg

[gratefulgrace]

Here is the reference I am referring to.Job 1:6 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Job&chapter=1&version=nkjv#) Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan[fn2] (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Job&chapter=1&version=nkjv#_fnt_2) also came among them.
Job 1:7 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Job&chapter=1&version=nkjv#) And the LORD said to Satan, "From where do you come?" So Satan answered the LORD and said, "From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it."
Job 1:8 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Job&chapter=1&version=nkjv#) Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil?"
Job 1:9 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Job&chapter=1&version=nkjv#) So Satan answered the LORD and said, "Does Job fear God for nothing?
Job 1:10 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Job&chapter=1&version=nkjv#) "Have You not made a hedge around him, around his household, and around all that he has on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land.
Job 1:11 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Job&chapter=1&version=nkjv#) "But now, stretch out Your hand and touch all that he has, and he will surely curse You to Your face!"
Job 1:12 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Job&chapter=1&version=nkjv#) And the LORD said to Satan, "Behold, all that he has is in your power; only do not lay a hand on his person." So Satan went out from the presence of the LORD.

[Spiritofprophecy]

Greetings in the name of Jesus:

Dear Gratefulgrace:

I am sure it was My post who said Satan exists as the human evil, and only in this form. As this of Job is another symbolic vision of Satan speaking to God condemning man. In this Case Job: Its the same satan which is defeated by Jesus:

How did Jesus defeat Satan? by the cross, and perfect blood covering Our sins: think about that: covering My sins, and yours, even jobs; Satan fell from heaven, Kicked: and also its written, His power in heaven to " accuse man" That Power was our sins seen by God: which is evils power unto God which is gone. WE still have our sin in flesh, and on earth Satan is the Prince of this world as Mans vanity and lusts and love of money is the prince of this world. But God hears not that sin, because its defeated by blood.

This is a 3000 year old jewish concept of Satan. And it does coincide all doctrines and contradicts no sound doctrine. And yes Satan did speak in Gods ear about Job. until Jesus removed his ability to accuse. And Satan the word, Means " Accuser"
I wanted to say, I appreciate your comments and views: and you are an honor Unto God by your manner and respect and patience as if a saint. I shall praise God for your spirit.


I pray No one takes offense by my words.
God bless C.F. and all who use it.

[gratefulgrace]

Who do you say was tempting Jesus here?

Mat 4:7 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Mat&chapter=4&version=nkjv#) Jesus said to him, "It is written again, 'You shall not tempt the LORD your God.'"
Mat 4:8 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Mat&chapter=4&version=nkjv#) Again, the devil took Him up on an exceedingly high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory.
Mat 4:9 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Mat&chapter=4&version=nkjv#) And he said to Him, "All these things I will give You if You will fall down and worship me."
Mat 4:10 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Mat&chapter=4&version=nkjv#) Then Jesus said to him, "Away with you, Satan! For it is written, 'You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve.'"
Mat 4:11 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Mat&chapter=4&version=nkjv#) Then the devil left Him, and behold, angels came and ministered to Him.

Also in Revelation we are told that Satan accuses the Bretheren and we overcome him by the Word of the Lamb and our testimony.
Rev 12:9 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Rev&chapter=12&version=nkjv#) So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Rev 12:10 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Rev&chapter=12&version=nkjv#) Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, "Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.
Rev 12:11 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Rev&chapter=12&version=nkjv#) "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.
Rev 12:12 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Rev&chapter=12&version=nkjv#) "Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time."

[Spiritofprophecy]

Who do you say was tempting Jesus here?

Mat 4:7 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Mat&chapter=4&version=nkjv#) Jesus said to him, "It is written again, 'You shall not tempt the LORD your God.'"
Mat 4:8 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Mat&chapter=4&version=nkjv#) Again, the devil took Him up on an exceedingly high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory.
Mat 4:9 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Mat&chapter=4&version=nkjv#) And he said to Him, "All these things I will give You if You will fall down and worship me."
Mat 4:10 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Mat&chapter=4&version=nkjv#) Then Jesus said to him, "Away with you, Satan! For it is written, 'You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve.'"
Mat 4:11 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Mat&chapter=4&version=nkjv#) Then the devil left Him, and behold, angels came and ministered to Him.

Also in Revelation we are told that Satan accuses the Bretheren and we overcome him by the Word of the Lamb and our testimony.
Rev 12:9 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Rev&chapter=12&version=nkjv#) So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Rev 12:10 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Rev&chapter=12&version=nkjv#) Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, "Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.
Rev 12:11 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Rev&chapter=12&version=nkjv#) "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.
Rev 12:12 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Rev&chapter=12&version=nkjv#) "Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time."
Greetings in the name of Jesus:

Dear GratefulGrace;

It is a very good question: and if true on one it also must be true in all cases: Which if one looks discerningly it proves out itself in Mat 4;7-ll. First we must acknowledge Jesus took upon himself all humanity and flesh as you and I. and rules from God also applied to Jesus. 1 cor 10;13 its written How God shall not allow man to be tempted by more than what is " Common unto man". And Jesus was also being tempted by this measure. But because of differences of each man the commonality does vary. Lets say a rich man is tempted today to make Great money using slave labor in india, and his spirit in thought takes him to India to envision this desire of flesh. Which as Jesus was taken to see all kingdoms of man. Which only he knew of. Knowing in flesh he could be ruler of all and worshiped in flesh. This is common, of Jesus self temptation; to placate his flesh.The Other example is the stones into Bread. We cannot do this, so we cannot of our vanity tempt ourselves with this. But Jesus could do this: and his Hunger commonality tempted his flesh to relieve this suffering of Hunger to use his power from God. And he commented, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. His flesh was actually tempting his Godly power, to submit to his fleshly desires. Which even we have Godly powers to a small degree. Which also we can be tempted to misuse for greed of money as done today. But matthew 4; does reaffirm that the flesh was speaking to Jesus, and the Kingdoms he saw: were from his Godly Knowledge and imagination desires of flesh. As we all have them. Called dreams. Where usually our evils of flesh of Satan originate.

Now On rev 12; first it is a revelation prophecy very symbolic. which also includes end time prophecy. which according to Jesus would mean the truth is sealed unto the end times. Which is What God originally sealed; and which Jesus confirmed and revealed all things Except that which was sealed. And only end time prophecies were not revealed by Jesus. Meaning that today, its you and me who are to be revealed in spirit rev 12. and all sealed verses. Which is not 11th & 12th Century middle ages interpretations; of sealed Prophecies not interpreted by Jesus.

Rev 12 Key as all Keys is Jesus: which is verse 5. " the son who is to rule the world with a rod of Iron"; the mother who born him is of 12 Crowns Is Israel verse 1.

And all of rev 12 is a symbolic interpretation of the entire existence of Israel.

Now your question of verse 7, dragon and his angels.
verse 9 tells you dragon is Satan.

Now the truth here: is this is another view of what you already Know. JEsus on cross and resurrection defeats satan and his followers. And rev 12 is a symbolic, same view of satan and angels( men) fighting Jesus or Michael, and Michael Jesus defeats Satan. Same satan and same defeat of satan. just in different view. And place not found in heaven any more verse 8. verse 9 As before Jesus now Michael cast satan out of heaven. with same Satan who " deceiveth ". and verse 10 Says exactly what Jesus in other verses did: " Accuser cast down". 11-12 Is as Jesus Christ or the blood of lamb stories you know: the rest is prophecy about Israel and what has happened since Jesus. And I shall allow the spirit to speak to you on that meaning, as you see Israelis history.

remember rev 12 is very symbolic prophecy.

Forgive me if you do not agree: but this is what the spirit did reveal unto me as truth of God in accordance with all doctrines established in past.

The other correlating verse used for Satan And heaven is Isaiah 14;12 " How hath thou fallen from heaven o lucifer".? As a question query verse this always denotes mystery verse. which was not Interpreted by Jews or Jesus; since its also end time verse. And key is Isaiah 14;16. where Lucifer is "man". Man fell from heaven in end times. Today> As antichrist ; born Christian claims to be as God. and then rejects his Christian beliefs. and as all christians who turn from God: does fall from heaven. Which is the only way men fall from heaven. Is by believing, and then falling away. And Falling from heaven. Sorry about the length of answer.

I pray my post does not offend any. God bless C.F. and all who use it.

[gratefulgrace]

Greetings in the name of Jesus:

Dear GratefulGrace;

It is a very good question: and if true on one it also must be true in all cases: Which if one looks discerningly it proves out itself in Mat 4;7-ll. First we must acknowledge Jesus took upon himself all humanity and flesh as you and I. and rules from God also applied to Jesus. 1 cor 10;13 its written How God shall not allow man to be tempted by more than what is " Common unto man". And Jesus was also being tempted by this measure. But because of differences of each man the commonality does vary. Lets say a rich man is tempted today to make Great money using slave labor in india, and his spirit in thought takes him to India to envision this desire of flesh. Which as Jesus was taken to see all kingdoms of man. Which only he knew of. Knowing in flesh he could be ruler of all and worshiped in flesh. This is common, of Jesus self temptation; to placate his flesh.The Other example is the stones into Bread. We cannot do this, so we cannot of our vanity tempt ourselves with this. But Jesus could do this: and his Hunger commonality tempted his flesh to relieve this suffering of Hunger to use his power from God. And he commented, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. His flesh was actually tempting his Godly power, to submit to his fleshly desires. Which even we have Godly powers to a small degree. Which also we can be tempted to misuse for greed of money as done today. But matthew 4; does reaffirm that the flesh was speaking to Jesus, and the Kingdoms he saw: were from his Godly Knowledge and imagination desires of flesh. As we all have them. Called dreams. Where usually our evils of flesh of Satan originate.

Now On rev 12; first it is a revelation prophecy very symbolic. which also includes end time prophecy. which according to Jesus would mean the truth is sealed unto the end times. Which is What God originally sealed; and which Jesus confirmed and revealed all things Except that which was sealed. And only end time prophecies were not revealed by Jesus. Meaning that today, its you and me who are to be revealed in spirit rev 12. and all sealed verses. Which is not 11th & 12th Century middle ages interpretations; of sealed Prophecies not interpreted by Jesus.

Rev 12 Key as all Keys is Jesus: which is verse 5. " the son who is to rule the world with a rod of Iron"; the mother who born him is of 12 Crowns Is Israel verse 1.

And all of rev 12 is a symbolic interpretation of the entire existence of Israel.

Now your question of verse 7, dragon and his angels.
verse 9 tells you dragon is Satan.

Now the truth here: is this is another view of what you already Know. JEsus on cross and resurrection defeats satan and his followers. And rev 12 is a symbolic, same view of satan and angels( men) fighting Jesus or Michael, and Michael Jesus defeats Satan. Same satan and same defeat of satan. just in different view. And place not found in heaven any more verse 8. verse 9 As before Jesus now Michael cast satan out of heaven. with same Satan who " deceiveth ". and verse 10 Says exactly what Jesus in other verses did: " Accuser cast down". 11-12 Is as Jesus Christ or the blood of lamb stories you know: the rest is prophecy about Israel and what has happened since Jesus. And I shall allow the spirit to speak to you on that meaning, as you see Israelis history.

remember rev 12 is very symbolic prophecy.

Forgive me if you do not agree: but this is what the spirit did reveal unto me as truth of God in accordance with all doctrines established in past.

The other correlating verse used for Satan And heaven is Isaiah 14;12 " How hath thou fallen from heaven o lucifer".? As a question query verse this always denotes mystery verse. which was not Interpreted by Jews or Jesus; since its also end time verse. And key is Isaiah 14;16. where Lucifer is "man". Man fell from heaven in end times. Today> As antichrist ; born Christian claims to be as God. and then rejects his Christian beliefs. and as all christians who turn from God: does fall from heaven. Which is the only way men fall from heaven. Is by believing, and then falling away. And Falling from heaven. Sorry about the length of answer.

I pray my post does not offend any. God bless C.F. and all who use it.

I take no offense but I find your interpretation of The temptation of Jesus to be unlike anything I have ever heard taught before even after 35 years as a committed Christian and 44 years as a Believer. It is hard to know what parts of Scripture is figurative and which is literal and I do understand that Revelatioin is a panorama of spiritual truth and not all of it is "yet to come" so to speak. A lot shows us the work of the Lord that has already been accomplished. However I do not see where it says that the idea of Satan is just that an idea. In all my readings of scripture it appears that this is a very real very malevolent being that hates God and hates his family. He attempted to devour the woman and the child born to her described in Revelation but supernatual delivernce came to them. Jesus very explicitly told the pharasaical leaders that even though biologically they were the descended from Abraham they were really children of their father the devil.

Jhn 8:30 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?translation=NIV&book=Jhn&chapter=8#) Even as he spoke, many put their faith in him.
Jhn 8:31 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?translation=NIV&book=Jhn&chapter=8#) To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples.
Jhn 8:32 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?translation=NIV&book=Jhn&chapter=8#) Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”
Jhn 8:33 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?translation=NIV&book=Jhn&chapter=8#) They answered him, “We are Abraham's descendants and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?”
Jhn 8:34 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?translation=NIV&book=Jhn&chapter=8#) Jesus replied, “I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin.
Jhn 8:35 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?translation=NIV&book=Jhn&chapter=8#) Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever.
Jhn 8:36 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?translation=NIV&book=Jhn&chapter=8#) So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.
Jhn 8:37 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?translation=NIV&book=Jhn&chapter=8#) I know you are Abraham's descendants. Yet you are ready to kill me, because you have no room for my word.
Jhn 8:38 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?translation=NIV&book=Jhn&chapter=8#) I am telling you what I have seen in the Father's presence, and you do what you have heard from your father.”
Jhn 8:39 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?translation=NIV&book=Jhn&chapter=8#) “Abraham is our father,” they answered.
“If you were Abraham's children,” said Jesus, “then you would do the things Abraham did.
Jhn 8:40 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?translation=NIV&book=Jhn&chapter=8#) As it is, you are determined to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things.
Jhn 8:41 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?translation=NIV&book=Jhn&chapter=8#) You are doing the things your own father does.”
“We are not illegitimate children,” they protested. “The only Father we have is God himself.”
Jhn 8:42 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?translation=NIV&book=Jhn&chapter=8#) Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me.
Jhn 8:43 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?translation=NIV&book=Jhn&chapter=8#) Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say.
Jhn 8:44 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?translation=NIV&book=Jhn&chapter=8#) You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
Jhn 8:45 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?translation=NIV&book=Jhn&chapter=8#) Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me!

Jesus seems to speak of the devil in the same manner that he is uses in speaking of His Father, as a literal being. He is of the FATHER they are of the devil the father of lies. How can we literally believe in the One true God the Father through Jesus words and then n