Our concepts of the afterlife

[Nurbz]

how accurate are they?

Hell is one of the more talked about aspects, such as the classical firey eternal torment, but I've also heard other religious figures suggest that hell would be cold, away from the light of God, or even that there wouldn't be any torment, just a seperation from Christ. A lot of our classical images came from the medieval catholic church's writings or Dante's Inferno. Or Heaven for that matter, the bible doesn't mention clouds or anything along those lines, just a massive city and lots of singing. I suppose I've been thinking about it lately and my thoughts have been centering on what will we do when we're there, but most everyone talks about getting there most.

Honestly, I was first saved because I didn't like the idea of burning alive, but since I've followed the more peaceful loving aspects of Jesus' example. However, after a special on TV about the afterlife I've been thanking.. what are we going to do with eternity? Fellowship with Jesus and singing are really the only things discussed, but really... constant singing would bore me after a few millenia.

Anyone else have these thoughts or questions?

[whatfor]

I though simular, maybe you wouldn't think it boring then.
Maybe your attitudes change

[Tavita]

Well, first off, we won't be living in heaven forever, we'll be living in the new earth and God the Father and Jesus will dwell with us and 'in' us. We will all be ONE.

Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of Heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they will be His people, and God Himself will be with them and be their God.


If you read Revelations 20 through 22 you will have a glimpse of life in the new earth...


Rev 22:3 And every curse will no longer be; but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His servants will serve Him.
Rev 22:4 And they will see His face, and His name will be in their foreheads.
Rev 22:5 And there will be no night there. And they need no lamp, or light of the sun; for the Lord God gives them light. And they will reign forever and ever.


If you read Revelation 2 and 3, Jesus addresses the angels of the churches and shows what we will be doing if we overcome...


Rev 2:7 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat of the Tree of Life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Rev 2:17 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give to him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knows except he who receives it .

Rev 2:26 And he who overcomes and keeps My works to the end, to him I will give power over the nations.
Rev 2:27 And he will rule them with a rod of iron, as the vessels of a potter they will be broken to pieces, even as I received from My Father.
Rev 2:28 And I will give him the Morning Star.

Rev 3:4 You have a few names even in Sardis who have not defiled their garments. And they will walk with Me in white, for they are worthy.
Rev 3:5 The one who overcomes, this one will be clothed in white clothing. And I will not blot out his name out of the Book of Life, but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

Rev 3:12 Him who overcomes I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will go out no more. And I will write upon him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of Heaven from My God, and My new name.

Rev 3:21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me in My throne, even as I also overcame and have sat down with My Father in His throne.

Sounds pretty exciting to me!!


The scriptures also say...

(2Ti 2:12 MKJV) If we suffer, we shall also reign with Him. If we deny Him, He also will deny us.

(Rev 5:10 MKJV) And You made us kings and priests to our God, and we will reign over the earth.

(Rev 20:6 MKJV) Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. The second death has no authority over these, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him a thousand years.

There will be lots of praise and worship to our God too. And don't forget how much we will learn of the history of God's dealing in the earth since Adam, and all those questions we have will be answered. And just imagine scooting around the universe checking out God's new creation!

Cheers!

[Nurbz]

so all faithfull since the beginning of humanity will be given positions of power over the mortals for a thousand years? Then what?

I'm not being sarcastic here, but I'm more confused.. so much importance is placed on BEING saved, but not much about the end result

[Artificial Intelligence]

Well, I don’t know about you, but I plan to spend a lot of time walking thru the forests with my pet wolf and pet bird while I strum my guitar. Maybe take trips in my flying saucer (UFO type thing) to different planets to play a little golf. Play some very sophisticated video game type games. Take a cruise with buddies around the world on our motorcycles. Attend all the remembrance feasts such as Passover and such. Sometimes I’ll just hang out in God’s temple and let the world go by. Ultimately, whatever you think it will be like, won’t even cover a sliver of everything it will be.

[flyingsum0]

Well, I don’t know about you, but I plan to spend a lot of time walking thru the forests with my pet wolf and pet bird while I strum my guitar. Maybe take trips in my flying saucer (UFO type thing) to different planets to play a little golf. Play some very sophisticated video game type games. Take a cruise with buddies around the world on our motorcycles. Attend all the remembrance feasts such as Passover and such. Sometimes I’ll just hang out in God’s temple and let the world go by. Ultimately, whatever you think it will be like, won’t even cover a sliver of everything it will be.

This could actually be the best description of Heaven Ive ever read...

As for Hell, seperation from God, His love and all teh love I currently have in my life pretty much seems like suffering enough...

[christianmomof3]

I'm not being sarcastic here, but I'm more confused.. so much importance is placed on BEING saved, but not much about the end result

I think the importance of BEING saved should concentrate on NOW and what we are doing now, not in the future after we are dead when no one really knows what will happen anyway.

I think we should not worry about what will happen after we die and concentrate on living our lives in Christ NOW.

We need to be those who pursue Christ and enjoy Him, share Him, live Him NOW. If we are doing that, that is all that we can do. Speculation about the unknown future afterlife is a waste of time.
All that we know is that if we pursue Christ, our eternal future will be with Him. That is good enough for me.

[Artificial Intelligence]

This could actually be the best description of Heaven Ive ever read...
Hey thanks haha, you think that was a good general description, you should hear me go on and on about my future house some day… and yes you can visit, we can shoot some pool. Then there is my vacation house, it will be located on another planet of course since my gardens will be just too big to fit on Earth with everything going on here. The new heavens and new earth will be just so incredibly active, lots of things to see and do; it’ll never get boring. :thumbsup:

As for dieing, I already did, I’m not going to die again. If anything I may be vacant from the body for what may be a very short period of time as things are looking here on old planet earth (time being short) but then again I may be one of the fortunate that wont endure that and simply be transformed into the resurrected state. I see nothing wrong with looking toward the future, after all it is the hope that is within us and that hope really does take the grind out of the here and now so we can push on. So, anything that is pure, that is good, that is enjoyable in the experience, that is what will be in heaven and new earth. If I can muster my wildest imaginations (and that I have ;) ), it will fall short of the immensity of what it will really contain, but that does not stop me from imagining even the smallest of details that I am capable of.

[Floatingaxe]

how accurate are they?

Hell is one of the more talked about aspects, such as the classical firey eternal torment, but I've also heard other religious figures suggest that hell would be cold, away from the light of God, or even that there wouldn't be any torment, just a seperation from Christ. A lot of our classical images came from the medieval catholic church's writings or Dante's Inferno. Or Heaven for that matter, the bible doesn't mention clouds or anything along those lines, just a massive city and lots of singing. I suppose I've been thinking about it lately and my thoughts have been centering on what will we do when we're there, but most everyone talks about getting there most.

Honestly, I was first saved because I didn't like the idea of burning alive, but since I've followed the more peaceful loving aspects of Jesus' example. However, after a special on TV about the afterlife I've been thanking.. what are we going to do with eternity? Fellowship with Jesus and singing are really the only things discussed, but really... constant singing would bore me after a few millenia.

Anyone else have these thoughts or questions?


I am in the middle of a great book called "Heaven", by Randy Alcorn. Fantastic and all Biblically based. He has studied Scriptural references exhaustively and come up with a wonderful understanding of Heaven, the New Earth. There are many references, all throughout scripture, but no definitive passage that speaks of it, so he has put it all together and prayerfully out forth a concept that is biblical. I don't believe we are not supposed to be in the dark about our eternal home--God has put enough information in His Word to make it something we should be aspiring for.

I highly recommend this book because of the Christlike way the concept is handled. It is exciting, yet doesn't include any fables! Excellent! :wave:

[Jeremiah8]

There's no need to be confused by these things, it's for this reason that God has allowed certain people to experience both heaven and hell, "type 23 minutes in hell" into google for clarification on what hell is like and books I know of with people going to heaven are "Heaven, close encounters of the God kind" by Jesse Duplantis and "The Final Quest" by Rick Joyner, although the latter was a series of visions as opposed to an actual visit to heaven !!

Please don't right these books off as the words of nutters without 1st seeking God's opinion on the matter, k !!

[DArceri]

so all faithfull since the beginning of humanity will be given positions of power over the mortals for a thousand years? Then what?

I'm not being sarcastic here, but I'm more confused.. so much importance is placed on BEING saved, but not much about the end result
Your problem is that you are thinking in the "flesh". The things you will miss is all wordly things. God promises a "new heaven and a new earth" (rev 21:1). We will have transformed bodies "like his glorious body" (phil 3:21). ....There will be "an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands" (2 cor 5:1). It is impossible for us to fully comprehend what we will be capable of in the resurrection. There will be no more death, no more mourning, no more crying, no more pain. Remember the first time you ever fell in love with someone and nothing could ruin your day because she just told you she loved you back. Nothing could ruin your day at that moment. Think of that same kind of love "100-fold" and for eternity.

[Nadiine]

how accurate are they?

Hell is one of the more talked about aspects, such as the classical firey eternal torment, but I've also heard other religious figures suggest that hell would be cold, away from the light of God, or even that there wouldn't be any torment, just a seperation from Christ. A lot of our classical images came from the medieval catholic church's writings or Dante's Inferno. Or Heaven for that matter, the bible doesn't mention clouds or anything along those lines, just a massive city and lots of singing. I suppose I've been thinking about it lately and my thoughts have been centering on what will we do when we're there, but most everyone talks about getting there most.

Honestly, I was first saved because I didn't like the idea of burning alive, but since I've followed the more peaceful loving aspects of Jesus' example. However, after a special on TV about the afterlife I've been thanking.. what are we going to do with eternity? Fellowship with Jesus and singing are really the only things discussed, but really... constant singing would bore me after a few millenia.
Anyone else have these thoughts or questions?


About Hell/Gehenna:
I can't see how anyone can manipulate hell/Gehenna OUT of the Christian doctrine! :scratch: No doubt people don't want it to be true, so they'll find ways to remove it.

I think Peter said it best here:
2 Peter 3:15-16
..just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you,
as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

The bottom line to me is this, ETERNITY IS WAY TOO LONG TO BE WRONG ABOUT ETERNAL PUNISHMENT & gamble with my Soul!!! :eek: :holy:

Mark 8:36 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=8&verse=36&version=49&context=verse)
"For what does it profit a man to gain the whole world,
and forfeit his soul?"

About Heaven:
Whatever Heaven is, God won't lead us along this far thru the life we know, to bring us into sheer BOREDOM wherever we spend eternity w/ Him.
We'll be directly in His presence, how will that become boring to a soul that's been purified and renewed??

As I see scripture, it talks about us 'judging angels' in the future. So I think there will be people & angels that we may be in charge of at some point -
& I understand that we won't literally be in the heaven God resides in right now either - He makes a new heaven & new earth (just restores our present earth) and we will live here w/ His new Jerusalem hovering above us.
Zechariah speaks of us going up there yearly too. I think there will be TONS of things going on in our new life. I don't sit & think about what all there will be, I just trust God that He'll provide what we've strived for.

[Nadiine]

I am in the middle of a great book called "Heaven", by Randy Alcorn. Fantastic and all Biblically based. He has studied Scriptural references exhaustively and come up with a wonderful understanding of Heaven, the New Earth. There are many references, all throughout scripture, but no definitive passage that speaks of it, so he has put it all together and prayerfully out forth a concept that is biblical. I don't believe we are not supposed to be in the dark about our eternal home--God has put enough information in His Word to make it something we should be aspiring for.

I highly recommend this book because of the Christlike way the concept is handled. It is exciting, yet doesn't include any fables! Excellent! :wave:
:wave: I know a few others that highly recommend that book too - one of them is a Pastor.

I know whatever God has in store for us will be AWESOME; namely when we know the other alternative!!! :eek: :cry:

[Cris413]

<snip> I don't sit & think about what all there will be, I just trust God that He'll provide what we've strived for.

Amen sister! :amen:

I consider how awesome it is now to have the Holy Spirit of God...how much more awesome will it be when this earthly shell is removed!

It blows my little mind to consider...we were created to worship and fellowship with Him.. To give Him glory, honor and praise; the Master and Creator of all things! How awesome it will be when we can do that without the fetters of this world!

[Nadiine]

Amen sister! :amen:

I consider how awesome it is now to have the Holy Spirit of God...how much more awesome will it be when this earthly shell is removed!

It blows my little mind to consider...we were created to worship and fellowship with Him.. To give Him glory, honor and praise; the Master and Creator of all things! How awesome it will be when we can do that without the fetters of this world!
:amen:
I consider Paul too - after all he had suffered & been thru and God gave him special insight (he said he was taken into the 3rd heaven) - said that NOTHING could compare to what awaits us - what God has in store for us.
What do I have to worry about? My biggest issue is that I want my beloved pets that I loved so dearly and miss dearly (they ARE my kids;) ) to be with me wherever I am. But even then, if God doesn't provide that, I know for a fact that I won't miss them then.
I just hope that in this life since it's all I know and understand.

[Floatingaxe]

:amen:
I consider Paul too - after all he had suffered & been thru and God gave him special insight (he said he was taken into the 3rd heaven) - said that NOTHING could compare to what awaits us - what God has in store for us.
What do I have to worry about? My biggest issue is that I want my beloved pets that I loved so dearly and miss dearly (they ARE my kids;) ) to be with me wherever I am. But even then, if God doesn't provide that, I know for a fact that I won't miss them then.
I just hope that in this life since it's all I know and understand.


Awww, Honey, I am sure you must believe as I do that all things earthly are but a shadow of the heavenly. Do you?

In that case, those animals that you have come to love are a shadow of what is to come! In the New Earth, you shall have animals galore--take your pick! And you can love them and nurture them forever and ever--never a loss to bear! And if you consider those things important to you now--they will be there as well...we don't stop being ourselves, do we?

[VictoryInHIM67]

As for Hell, seperation from God, His love and all teh love I currently have in my life pretty much seems like suffering enough...

though i dont believe this will be the SOLE aspect of hell, i do feel it will be a large amount of its suffering.

when i had backslid and turned my back on Christ, he gave me a vision of the end times.

there was no demons, or anything that you would expect.

i was just alone, and felt the presence/spirit of the Lord leave the earth..
i KNEW i had missed it.

the terror of a world/life without out God was much more terrifying then any nightmares i have ever had.

so i think the agony of the seperation will be a part of hell, i also value the scripture at its word, and feel there will be the fiery pit, and gnashing of teeth

[GrannieAnnie]

I don't really care what Heaven will be like.....I'm just happy to be going.

Praise God....

Annie

[aspirine]

how accurate are they?

Hell is one of the more talked about aspects, such as the classical firey eternal torment, but I've also heard other religious figures suggest that hell would be cold, away from the light of God, or even that there wouldn't be any torment, just a seperation from Christ. A lot of our classical images came from the medieval catholic church's writings or Dante's Inferno. Or Heaven for that matter, the bible doesn't mention clouds or anything along those lines, just a massive city and lots of singing. I suppose I've been thinking about it lately and my thoughts have been centering on what will we do when we're there, but most everyone talks about getting there most.

Honestly, I was first saved because I didn't like the idea of burning alive, but since I've followed the more peaceful loving aspects of Jesus' example. However, after a special on TV about the afterlife I've been thanking.. what are we going to do with eternity? Fellowship with Jesus and singing are really the only things discussed, but really... constant singing would bore me after a few millenia.

Anyone else have these thoughts or questions?
Others have pointed out that the popular view of Hell as a place of Eternal Torment is not found in the Hebrew Scriptures.
Neither is Heaven as a place of eternal bliss. I checked it out for myself and they are correct, those pagan concepts are not in the Hebrew scriptures.
And you are very correct about much of the imagery coming from Dante's poetry. Niven and Pournell did a modern retelling of it in the 70's called Inferno. It is a fun read.

Look up the member FoonNerfdahl and his postings. He covered this rather well.

[Floatingaxe]

Others have pointed out that the popular view of Hell as a place of Eternal Torment is not found in the Hebrew Scriptures.
Neither is Heaven as a place of eternal bliss. I checked it out for myself and they are correct, those pagan concepts are not in the Hebrew scriptures.
And you are very correct about much of the imagery coming from Dante's poetry. Niven and Pournell did a modern retelling of it in the 70's called Inferno. It is a fun read.

Look up the member FoonNerfdahl and his postings. He covered this rather well.


Revelation 14:1ob-11
And they will be tormented with fire and burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and the Lamb. The smoke of their torment will rise forever and ever, and they will have no relief day or night, for they have worshiped the beast and his statue and have accepted the mark of his name.”

[Cris413]

Psalm 11:4 The Lord is in His holy temple, The Lord's throne is in heaven. His eyes behold, His eyelids test the sons of men

John 14:1-3 "Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me.

v2 "In My Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you

v3 "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also


This sound more like a promise than a poem to me...

[aspirine]

Revelation 14:1ob-11
And they will be tormented with fire and burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and the Lamb. The smoke of their torment will rise forever and ever, and they will have no relief day or night, for they have worshiped the beast and his statue and have accepted the mark of his name.”
I wrote "The Hebrew Scriptures". Citing a metaphorical book like the Rev. is no proof at all.

[Floatingaxe]

I wrote "The Hebrew Scriptures". Citing a metaphorical book like the Rev. is no proof at all.


Why is it not proof? It's Jesus ! God's Word is God's Word. John saw and John heard all about it.

[Cris413]

I wrote "The Hebrew Scriptures". Citing a metaphorical book like the Rev. is no proof at all.
Psalm 11:4 The Lord is in His holy temple, The Lord's throne is in heaven. His eyes behold, His eyelids test the sons of men

It's kind of heartbreaking...there are so many caught up in the study of this and that...even Scripture sometimes...that in intense search for knowledge...they miss the heart of understanding. They miss the peace and blessed assurance of God's promises.

John 14:3 "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also

[Nadiine]

I wrote "The Hebrew Scriptures". Citing a metaphorical book like the Rev. is no proof at all.
Um, did you happen to read chapter one? He tells him to write what "WAS", what "IS" and "WHAT IS TO COME" IN SUCCSESSIVE ORDER, that's not metaphor, that's a literal account of past, present time and future events to come.
The MEANINGS aren't metephor, the visions are likenesses - they describe literal events to come.

Jesus said He gave signs for us to know what is to come and approximately when. Iif we don't bother to read those very things as literal, then we will be as the 'thief in the night' and the virgin with no oil in her lamp (ready and waiting for her groom's return).

Jesus reprimanded the pharisees for knowing the signs in the sky for weather, yet they didn't percieve the time their Messiah was coming (which they SHOULD HAVE) given the scripture detail in their OT.

It's not metaphor, they're to let us know past, present & future.

[Nadiine]

I have to wonder why God bothered with a Bible if He had people write metaphorical GARBALDY GOOP so we'd have no way to know anything from it? :swoon:

What was the point of all the men of God who wrote these books that were preserved over thousands of years, just so we'd come to realize it was all basically worthless to relay any substantial truth to anyone:scratch: "just take a stab in the dark at what it might mean -- you're all on your own kids!!!"

:doh: :doh: :doh: :help:

[Nadiine]

though i dont believe this will be the SOLE aspect of hell, i do feel it will be a large amount of its suffering.

when i had backslid and turned my back on Christ, he gave me a vision of the end times.

there was no demons, or anything that you would expect.

i was just alone, and felt the presence/spirit of the Lord leave the earth..
i KNEW i had missed it.

the terror of a world/life without out God was much more terrifying then any nightmares i have ever had.

so i think the agony of the seperation will be a part of hell, i also value the scripture at its word, and feel there will be the fiery pit, and gnashing of teeth
I had the same experience you did when I was deeply backslidden & in the nightclub scene.

I remember waking up in a hot sweat from the fear of what I saw.
I had run to my church parking lot and no one was there & the sky was all lit up orange. Terrifying - I knew I was too late and I was just horrified.
That still wasn't enough to get me to turn from my lifestyle, but I always lived in heavy conviction.

It's indescribable the peace you feel when you've come back to Him. I don't worry about my future like that anymore.
Eternity is just way too long to choose the world over God. :idea:

[BustedFlat]

I wrote "The Hebrew Scriptures". Citing a metaphorical book like the Rev. is no proof at all.

Will Deuteronomy - Chapter 32 count as "Hebrew Scripture"? Although all 66 books are "Hebrew" as most, if not all the writers were Jews, the one exception being Nebuchadnezzar, who wrote a chapter in Daniel. John was a Jew, so Revelation would have to be classified as "Hebrew".

Deu 32:22 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Deu&chapter=32&verse=22&version=kjv#22)
For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.
Deu 32:23 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Deu&chapter=32&verse=23&version=kjv#23)¶I will heap mischiefs upon them; I will spend mine arrows upon them.Deu 32:24 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Deu&chapter=32&verse=24&version=kjv#24)
[They shall be] burnt with hunger, and devoured with burning heat, and with bitter destruction: I will also send the teeth of beasts upon them, with the poison of serpents of the dust.

Jesus spoke also of Hell Fire:

Mat 5:22 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Mat&c=5&v=22&version=NKJV#22) But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, 'Raca!' shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire.

Mat 10:28 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Mat&c=10&v=28&version=NKJV#28) And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Mar 9:43 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Mar&c=9&v=43&version=NKJV#43) If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched--

And we must not forget the story of Lazuras the begger:

Luk 16:22 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Luk&chapter=16&version=NKJV#) "So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
Luk 16:23 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Luk&chapter=16&version=NKJV#) "And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

[Nadiine]

I had the same experience you did when I was deeply backslidden & in the nightclub scene.

I remember waking up in a hot sweat from the fear of what I saw.
I had run to my church parking lot and no one was there & the sky was all lit up orange. Terrifying - I knew I was too late and I was just horrified.
That still wasn't enough to get me to turn from my lifestyle, but I always lived in heavy conviction.

It's indescribable the peace you feel when you've come back to Him. I don't worry about my future like that anymore.
Eternity is just way too long to choose the world over God. :idea:
An added note on this thought - I always wonder why all the BLESSINGS and BENEFITS found in the Bible are taken literally, but all the verses that COST us something or aren't pleasant to us, are "metaphorical" :scratch:
Did anyone stop to ask, what the metaphor MEANS? Even behind each parable is a truth meaning teaching a literal principle. All except for the "hell" stuff. Those don't relay any literal truth...

Jesus also knows that only HE knew the real truth about what exists in the afterlife (heaven/hell/eternality of our souls, etc.), so why is Jesus giving detailed info. about hell using terms of FIRE, and to gouge your eyes out & cut your hands off if they cause you to sin, that it would be better to enter heaven maimed than go to a fiery horrible place forever???
Isn't Jesus causing purposeful confusion and misleading us all to make such an outrageous statement on something we have no way of knowing (ie. what happens after death) IF IN FACT THERE IS NO FIERY PLACE OF TORMENT that people go to eternally???

I propose that Jesus knew exactly what He was saying and was purposely using those extreme terms to relay that this place exists and it's terrible - & to do all you can to avoid going there; even to gouging out your own eyes & chopping off limbs if they cause you to sin.

All the negatives seem to be metaphors, and all the blessings & benefits that we get are literal? :confused: :scratch:

"Things that make you go, hmmmmmmmmmmm". :idea:

[aspirine]

Why is it not proof? It's Jesus ! God's Word is God's Word. John saw and John heard all about it.
Because the veracity of the inspired nature of the Book is in dispute and has been in dispute for around 2000 years. It is an example of metaphorical Hebrew mysticism, and as such it is open to interpretation, and as such it is not open to literal interpretation.

[aspirine]

Psalm 11:4 The Lord is in His holy temple, The Lord's throne is in heaven. His eyes behold, His eyelids test the sons of men

It's kind of heartbreaking...there are so many caught up in the study of this and that...even Scripture sometimes...that in intense search for knowledge...they miss the heart of understanding. They miss the peace and blessed assurance of God's promises.

John 14:3 "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also
It is heartbreaking that people would interpret that psalm to be about the pagan heaven of eternal life that the Romans created when the Roman Empire coopted the religion of Jesus. But there not being a Heaven of Eternal Bliss or a Hell of Eternal torment does not affect the love that the devoted have for YHVH. It simply is NOT relevant to how I live my life. I follow His ways because they are good and not because of any expectation of a pie in the sky reward.

As for John it takes a preexisting belief in a Heaven of Eternal Bliss to see 14.3 as indicating that.

[FaceForward]

There is no such thing as the "afterlife" for the Christian. If you are born again, you are right now merely at the beginning of your eternity.

Live it now.

[Floatingaxe]

There is no such thing as the "afterlife" for the Christian. If you are born again, you are right now merely at the beginning of your eternity.

Live it now.


Amen! :thumbsup:

[FaceForward]

:eek: :eek:

To be honest, I wasn't expecting anybody to understand that!!!! :D :D

Amen. :)

[Cris413]

<snip> It simply is NOT relevant to how I live my life. I follow His ways because they are good and not because of any expectation of a pie in the sky reward.
A lot of people follow Buddha for the same reason

As for John it takes a preexisting belief in a Heaven of Eternal Bliss to see 14.3 as indicating that.

I choose to follow the word of God as led by the Holy Spirit.

I've posted as I felt led to do so. I have no doubt in the truths revealed in His word. The gospel of Jesus Christ.

I choose not to argue Scripture...also something that I have come to understand through God's word as led by the Holy Spirit.

God bless you! :hug:

[aspirine]

NADIINE AND BUSTEDFLAT

Chapter one of Genesis Nadiine? Or Chapter one of John? I do not want to sidetrack the thread into a discussion that has been debated over and over on another subforum.

BustedFlat, When I write scripture, I mean the same scripture James and Paul ment. The first five books. I also respect the Prophets of YHVH who consistently preach the same basic messege of YHVH, but they do not carry the same weight
as the first five books.

Sure D32 counts. I do not see the pagan hell of eternal torment there. It looks like something fare different

32: 15 is sort of where it begins as a concept I think. Now I am going to have to look up D32 the Song of Moses right? It has to be read as a whole to really understand it.

This independen Poem is held to have been
inserted by the Deteronomistic historian in his edition of the work. Parts of 31 refer
to the Song and were inserted by the same historian. who wrote those parts of 31.

So 32: 1-20 refer to hiding of the face and rejecting God. The second section is Moses calling the skies and earth as witness to the prophecy Moses then makes about the people provoking Gods anger so that He leaves them prey to other nations. These things are stated
as a prophecy of an actual situation that
"corresponds to the exile rather than the
time of Josiah. " (Richard Elliot Freeman)

(I do not care for numbered verses because they tend to make it to easyto take things out of context. 20 starts with an "And".

20 And He said, "let me hide my face from them: I'll see what their end will be. For they're a generation of overthrows, children with no trust in them.
21 They made me jealous with no-god. They provoked me with their nothings. And I: I'll make then jealous with no-people. I'll make them angry with a foolish nation.
22 For Fire has ignited in my anger and burned to Sheol at bottom and consumed land and its crop and set teh mountains' foundations ablaze. I'll mass bad things over them. I'll exhaust my arrows on them, sapped by hunger and devoured by
flame, and bitter destruction and animasl' teeth I'll let loose at hem with venom of serpents of the dust. Outside: A sword will bereave and inside: terror, both young man and virgin, suckling with aged man.

26 I'd say, "I'll erase them. I'll make their memory cease from mankind"

(BUSTEDFLAT that indicates that it is not an endtime reference.)
(The sentence continues)
27 if I didn't fear my enemy's anger.in case their foes would misread, in case they'd say, "Our hand was high, and it wasn't YHWH who did all this!"

This is obviously NOT a mention of an eternal hell nor is it an endtime prophecy.

As for the book of LUKE and it Pauline orientation, it is NOT scripture. And it is a story to illustrate a point. It is also I think, if I remember correctly, the same story the pagan-influenced theologins used to introduce purgatory into Christianity.

I could continue but there is too much noise now as we must prepare dinner.

I trust my soul to YHVH.
YHVH says all souls belong to HIM. He can do whatever he wants to with them.

[Cris413]

There is no such thing as the "afterlife" for the Christian. If you are born again, you are right now merely at the beginning of your eternity.

Live it now.
I agree...a better terminology would be "everlasing life" which begins the moment we accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior...John 3:16

We will, however, pass from this world into the Kingdom...be it by physical death of this fleshly vessel or Rapture.

[GrannieAnnie]

I'd like to be able to fly......I'd really like to be able to fly.....just hold out my arms and take off...:clap: I'm scared of flying and heights now, but THEN....I reckon all fear would be gone....since I was a little girl I've wanted to be able to fly.....a bit like superman I guess when I think about it.....OK...so apart of me has never grown up...:D

Alright...seriously now.....I really don't care what Heaven will be like either...just as long as I'm with JESUS...it's gonna be good.

Hell...mmm, I don't think anyone can imagine how terrible that would be....and I don't intend ever finding out.

Annie

[kristofferdaniel]

In the kingdom of God all the obedient will live in eternal bliss!

[Lightcreated]

Hell is eternal separation from God, we can never understand that with our little earthly minds.But you better believe it will be infinitely more terrible than we can ever comprehend.

[andross77]

how accurate are they?

Hell is one of the more talked about aspects, such as the classical firey eternal torment, but I've also heard other religious figures suggest that hell would be cold, away from the light of God, or even that there wouldn't be any torment, just a seperation from Christ. A lot of our classical images came from the medieval catholic church's writings or Dante's Inferno. Or Heaven for that matter, the bible doesn't mention clouds or anything along those lines, just a massive city and lots of singing. I suppose I've been thinking about it lately and my thoughts have been centering on what will we do when we're there, but most everyone talks about getting there most.

Honestly, I was first saved because I didn't like the idea of burning alive, but since I've followed the more peaceful loving aspects of Jesus' example. However, after a special on TV about the afterlife I've been thanking.. what are we going to do with eternity? Fellowship with Jesus and singing are really the only things discussed, but really... constant singing would bore me after a few millenia.

Anyone else have these thoughts or questions?

CAPITAL (i.e. excellent!) question my brother. Who in their right mind would want to go to heaven if it was 100% singing, harping and cloud-sitting??? No one if they were honest. They would rather serve God on this beautiful Earth where they can visit waterfalls, eat steaks (or veggie burgers), have pets, learn crafts, exercise and get fit, give money to help people out, etc.

I hope you read this post b/c i want to point you to the most amazing book you can read on the topic: Heaven by Randy Alcorn. It is a LONG book and he is very redundant, BUT it is the most inspiring and biblically accurate description of heaven i have ever read (outside of the Bible).

You can not believe the lies of today's media and stars. There will be no parties in Hell. People will not being hanging out in Hell with their buddies getting to do their own thing and not worrying about God's rules anymore or "religious fanatics". Hell will not be pleasurable for people that mostly fill their time with dark deeds now. Satan won't even reign in Hell!!

Hell is worse than the worst thing that you will ever witness, say or think about during your entire life. It will be lonely, cold, hot, painful, hopeless, dark, scary, endless, etc. It is everything we hate or fear in this life, plus more (hateful and fearful things), with NONE of the good.

Sorry to get off topic, but it relates to heaven. Heaven is obviously and by definition the exact opposite of Hell. It is everything we love and enjoy in this life, plus more (lovely and enjoyable things), with NONE of the bad.

Of course we know there will be no tears, no sadness and not even the possibility of sin, but what else? There will be cities and mountains and valleys and streams and oceans and clouds and planets and suns and stars and fresh air and trees and people of every nation, tongue and tribe. *breathe in* We will have banquets and adventures and fly fishing and fulfilling work and fellowship with Jesus and face-to-face interaction with God and all the time in the world to do it b/c it is eternal!

This is just a short post on this huge topic so i can't whip out all the verses that support what i'm saying but that's why i suggest you read that Heaven book by Randy Alcorn and i also challenge you to search out Scripture for passages talking about Heaven (not just Matt. 28 and Revelation. I mean Ezekiel and Psalms and 1 Corinthians and the rest of Scripture. There is MUCH that is described and anticipated by the biblical writers).

But it is VERY easy to argue from reason. Why would God take us from some place more enjoyable to some place LESS enjoyable as a reward for following him on Earth? It doesn't make logical sense. God is a God of creativity so why would he limit us to singing and harping? Don't you think he'll continue exercising his creative juices in heaven, making planets and flora and fauna and things we haven't even imagined yet? I would say it's a safe bet to say he would.

Don't fall for one of Satan's biggest traps: to convince someone who is already claimed by Christ that heaven is going to be boring and repetitive and thoughtless and same-ole, same-ole. Then the further lie that people will be partying in hell under their own rules (you have to be pretty lost to believe that last sentence, but some people do). Nothing could be farther from the truth and it is our duty as Christians to get EXCITED for what is to come.

This life is SUPER IMPORTANT as it determines our eternal fate and provides us with many or no rewards as we enter heaven. BUT, it is just the beginning of a super long (actually never-ending) adventure with our Father and Saviour that will get better and better all the time. :clap: :angel: :P ^_^ :tutu:


There will be a new heaven and a new earth and it will be 10x....no more like 100x.....who am i kidding, INFINITELY more exciting, cool, exhilarating, fun, enjoyable, laugh-inducing, cheery, appetizing, satisfying, humbling, and joyous than ANYTHING we are experiencing now.

[Floatingaxe]

CAPITAL (i.e. excellent!) question my brother. Who in their right mind would want to go to heaven if it was 100% singing, harping and cloud-sitting??? No one if they were honest. They would rather serve God on this beautiful Earth where they can visit waterfalls, eat steaks (or veggie burgers), have pets, learn crafts, exercise and get fit, give money to help people out, etc.

I hope you read this post b/c i want to point you to the most amazing book you can read on the topic: Heaven by Randy Alcorn. It is a LONG book and he is very redundant, BUT it is the most inspiring and biblically accurate description of heaven i have ever read (outside of the Bible).

You can not believe the lies of today's media and stars. There will be no parties in Hell. People will not being hanging out in Hell with their buddies getting to do their own thing and not worrying about God's rules anymore or "religious fanatics". Hell will not be pleasurable for people that mostly fill their time with dark deeds now. Satan won't even reign in Hell!!

Hell is worse than the worst thing that you will ever witness, say or think about during your entire life. It will be lonely, cold, hot, painful, hopeless, dark, scary, endless, etc. It is everything we hate or fear in this life, plus more (hateful and fearful things), with NONE of the good.

Sorry to get off topic, but it relates to heaven. Heaven is obviously and by definition the exact opposite of Hell. It is everything we love and enjoy in this life, plus more (lovely and enjoyable things), with NONE of the bad.

Of course we know there will be no tears, no sadness and not even the possibility of sin, but what else? There will be cities and mountains and valleys and streams and oceans and clouds and planets and suns and stars and fresh air and trees and people of every nation, tongue and tribe. *breathe in* We will have banquets and adventures and fly fishing and fulfilling work and fellowship with Jesus and face-to-face interaction with God and all the time in the world to do it b/c it is eternal!

This is just a short post on this huge topic so i can't whip out all the verses that support what i'm saying but that's why i suggest you read that Heaven book by Randy Alcorn and i also challenge you to search out Scripture for passages talking about Heaven (not just Matt. 28 and Revelation. I mean Ezekiel and Psalms and 1 Corinthians and the rest of Scripture. There is MUCH that is described and anticipated by the biblical writers).

But it is VERY easy to argue from reason. Why would God take us from some place more enjoyable to some place LESS enjoyable as a reward for following him on Earth? It doesn't make logical sense. God is a God of creativity so why would he limit us to singing and harping? Don't you think he'll continue exercising his creative juices in heaven, making planets and flora and fauna and things we haven't even imagined yet? I would say it's a safe bet to say he would.

Don't fall for one of Satan's biggest traps: to convince someone who is already claimed by Christ that heaven is going to be boring and repetitive and thoughtless and same-ole, same-ole. Then the further lie that people will be partying in hell under their own rules (you have to be pretty lost to believe that last sentence, but some people do). Nothing could be farther from the truth and it is our duty as Christians to get EXCITED for what is to come.

This life is SUPER IMPORTANT as it determines our eternal fate and provides us with many or no rewards as we enter heaven. BUT, it is just the beginning of a super long (actually never-ending) adventure with our Father and Saviour that will get better and better all the time.:tutu:


There will be a new heaven and a new earth and it will be 10x....no more like 100x.....who am i kidding, INFINITELY more exciting, cool, exhilarating, fun, enjoyable, laugh-inducing, cheery, appetizing, satisfying, humbling, and joyous than ANYTHING we are experiencing now.


Yep! :thumbsup: I am about halfway through "Heaven"! It is the best, most thoroughly Scriptural approach to the subject I have seen.

I advise everyone to get a copy of "Heaven" by Randy Alcorn.

[Lightbearer3]

Wouldn't it be cool if we could go back in time when we get to heaven and watch Jesus in His earth life? What if there are links to the past and we swirl through a worm hole and visit history while it is being made? Perhaps we will be able to watch all of history unfold before our very eyes! Imagine watching Jesus teach the sermon on the mount, witness His walking on the water, be there when He raised Lazarus from the dead, see John on the island of Patmos, be at the wedding at Canna when Jesus turned water into wine, hear paul preach, be on the ship with Paul and end up on that stange island where the viper bit him...oh I think I would like this very much. Not only these but all the others we never heard of; the great giants of faith down through the ages who lived by faith, but it was written down no where...like your grandmom...or mine.

Just a thought

[FaceForward]

I am convinced that once I finally shuffle off this mortal coil, I will awake to find that all that has ever been, and all that has ever been prophecied to happen, will have already happened. And as I watch from heaven my pastor presiding over my funeral, he and I will both already be there in heaven to talk about it!!! :D :D

Time was the first creation of God, and as His kids, we are above it too. :)

[Floatingaxe]

Wouldn't it be cool if we could go back in time when we get to heaven and watch Jesus in His earth life? What if there are links to the past and we swirl through a worm hole and visit history while it is being made? Perhaps we will be able to watch all of history unfold before our very eyes! Imagine watching Jesus teach the sermon on the mount, witness His walking on the water, be there when He raised Lazarus from the dead, see John on the island of Patmos, be at the wedding at Canna when Jesus turned water into wine, hear paul preach, be on the ship with Paul and end up on that stange island where the viper bit him...oh I think I would like this very much. Not only these but all the others we never heard of; the great giants of faith down through the ages who lived by faith, but it was written down no where...like your grandmom...or mine.

Just a thought


Oh man! I would love that!!! :tutu: