Where in the Law does it say women should be silent??

[carlos123]

Oh Carlos :doh: ....I never said, nor implied that roles for men and women were not different or have no distinction. Those were your words...not mine


I might have misread what you said Cris. I will re-read it later when I can access the Internet again. By the way my answers to objections is not neccessarily directed at you only but more so at various objections that have been raised on this thread. Gal 3:28 seems to be a favorite one to use on the part of those who do not believe that God has different roles for men and women in the church but that women can be all and do all that men are called by God to do.

Please bear with me as I go to another location to get on the Internet. There are several in town that let me piggyback on their connections (by permission). The one I have now closes down at 4:30 PM (15 minutes from now).

Carlos

[Cris413]

Objection to married women being admonished to be silent in church assemblies: Galatians 3:28 says that there is neither male or female and that we are all one in Christ so presumably a woman can therefore do anything and everything a man can do including the act of speaking out in church assemblies. <snip>

Carlos...let me begin by saying...I have no disagreement with Scripture. Again...my selection of Galatians was in context with the gifts of the Spirit...

What I do take in measure...it that you continually add your own perseptions to what posters express. You add your own words...which twist the thoughts presented by others.

It is your presumption, Carlos, that my post implied a thought that:

"a woman can therefore do anything and everything a man can do including the act of speaking out in church assemblies" Your words...not mine

:swoon:

[BustedFlat]

Parts belonging to men? Huh?

God's Word is totally God's message to mankind. His Word is infallible and perfect. The problem is with man and his lack of understanding. To understand God's Word correctly, you must allow the Holy Spirit to reveal truth to you, spending time in prayer before reading. Then understanding is given and it jives with everyone else's understanding, who is also led by the Spirit.

Much disunity comes from man's personal agenda.
One of the mind blowing things about the word of God, the whole Old Testament was translated in to Greek 280 years before the birth of Christ. Why is that important? It gives a record we have a date certain for that proceeds the birth of Christ by nearly 3 centuries. This is not oral history, the prophets had their words recorded and dated long before the actual events took place. Unlike the prophecies that were fulfilled in the Old Testament times, we now have a precise historical record of the prophecies of Christs first coming well before it happened, as well as the record of what happened during his lifetime.


We still have access to some of those manuscripts today. We can know with certainty that they are an accurate and faithful translations because The Lord Himself often quoted from that version. The Holy Spirit gives us insight in to what events fulfilled what prophecies through the New Testament writers.


We can be sure that Daniel was a prophet and wrote chapter 9 of Daniel from Matt 25:15 and Mar 13:14, and Isaiah was a prophet and wrote all the book of Isaiah, as Jesus quotes him at least 6 times, from diverse places as chapter 61 (Luke 4:16) chapter 6, 29 and 53 in John 12:36-41.


Moses is often quoted and accredited, by Jesus thought out the four Gospels, so we can take it as a fact that the Torah was written by him and him alone. We are also to understand that God has high regard for what was written there.


There is some problems with the translations from Greek and Hebrew into English as well as there are some problems with the translation from 16th century English into 21th century English and some problems with the hand written transcripts through out history, but those do not detract from the global message of the bible and only introduce problems if you concentrate on trying to make doctrine from one single word or passage rather than taking in to account everything that was said involving a subject in the rest of the bible, all 66 books.

[Cris413]

I might have misread what you said Cris. I will re-read it later when I can access the Internet again. By the way my answers to objections is not neccessarily directed at you only but more so at various objections that have been raised on this thread. Gal 3:28 seems to be a favorite one to use on the part of those who do not believe that God has different roles for men and women in the church but that women can be all and do all that men are called by God to do.

Please bear with me as I go to another location to get on the Internet. There are several in town that let me piggyback on their connections (by permission). The one I have now closes down at 4:30 PM (15 minutes from now).

Carlos

Thank you! Might I suggest...that if you choose to respond to posts...that you read them first...rather than skimming through to find your particular point of argument.

Actually think about what is written rather than thinking about your rebuttal or how you can refute it.

If you have an assumption...or something doesn't seem right to you...I dunno...maybe ask a question or two before you leap into your corrections and objections.

Just a couple thoughts to ponder. Please excuse my frustration, Carlos, but really...my intent is not to attack you...but to give you pause that perhaps by taking these things into consideration...a better understanding may be had by all...

Peace

And I really do appreciate your consideration that perhaps you misread my thoughts...again...thank you

:)
</IMG>

[Floatingaxe]

One of the mind blowing things about the word of God, the whole Old Testament was translated in to Greek 280 years before the birth of Christ. Why is that important? It gives a record we have a date certain for that proceeds the birth of Christ by nearly 3 centuries. This is not oral history, the prophets had their words recorded and dated long before the actual events took place. Unlike the prophecies that were fulfilled in the Old Testament times, we now have a precise historical record of the prophecies of Christs first coming well before it happened, as well as the record of what happened during his lifetime.


We still have access to some of those manuscripts today. We can know with certainty that they are an accurate and faithful translations because The Lord Himself often quoted from that version. The Holy Spirit gives us insight in to what events fulfilled what prophecies through the New Testament writers.


We can be sure that Daniel was a prophet and wrote chapter 9 of Daniel from Matt 25:15 and Mar 13:14, and Isaiah was a prophet and wrote all the book of Isaiah, as Jesus quotes him at least 6 times, from diverse places as chapter 61 (Luke 4:16) chapter 6, 29 and 53 in John 12:36-41.


Moses is often quoted and accredited, by Jesus thought out the four Gospels, so we can take it as a fact that the Torah was written by him and him alone. We are also to understand that God has high regard for what was written there.


There is some problems with the translations from Greek and Hebrew into English as well as there are some problems with the translation from 16th century English into 21th century English and some problems with the hand written transcripts through out history, but those do not detract from the global message of the bible and only introduce problems if you concentrate on trying to make doctrine from one single word or passage rather than taking in to account everything that was said involving a subject in the rest of the bible, all 66 books.


Yep, uh-huh, right, correctimundo, Amen! :thumbsup: :wave:

[LJSGM]

The bible says that we will be judges over the earth. Paul says judge for yourselves. Should we not then judge what is right for our own fellowships? What is the most edifying way for everyone pertaining this? What is the most loving?

[freyajem]

Seems to me miss freyajem has done a flip flop... :eek:

LOL.....would seem so wouldn't it. I did some thinking and reading and searching. I didn't really do a flipflop. I just stopped, took a good look at what I was reading here, took it to God and saw the whole thing for what it is. Didn't exactly change my mind. Just saw the light.

Hit me right between the eyes......how come it has to be word for word, as is, no changes, no passing Go, UNTIL it comes to what God says for women. And then all of a sudden word for word changes and interpretation(which I am not allowed to do) takes place by women.

[carlos123]

LOL.....would seem so wouldn't it. I did some thinking and reading and searching. I didn't really do a flipflop. I just stopped, took a good look at what I was reading here, took it to God and saw the whole thing for what it is. Didn't exactly change my mind. Just saw the light.

Hit me right between the eyes......how come it has to be word for word, as is, no changes, no passing Go, UNTIL it comes to what God says for women. And then all of a sudden word for word changes and interpretation(which I am not allowed to do) takes place by women.

Hmmm...that's an interesting observation freyajem. I hadn't noticed that but I think you have something there.

By the way I commend you for being honest about what is going on in your heart regarding this issue. That took both courage and humility to say what you did.

Carlos

[carlos123]

Hi Cris,

I found an internet connection again and have lots of time to post tonight so....

Oh Carlos :doh: ....I never said, nor implied that roles for men and women were not different or have no distinction. Those were your words...not mine

What I said was that God understands His creation male and female and uses both as He calls, equips and gifts for His good will and purpose.


In looking back over what you said Cris I did see what you were saying as backing up the thought that there are no role distinctions for men and women in the church. You are correct in seeing that in my responses. I should have asked you more about your view before responding as I did but again bear in mind that my objection answering post was not so much directed at you as at the general objection of thinking that there are no role distinctions in the church.

Carlos

[carlos123]

Cris...I am going to follow your good advice and ask before jumping in with correction or to make a point :thumbsup:

When you say that God gifts all, both men and women, as He wills (a point I heartedly agree with by the way) are you saying that women can exercise whatever gift they are given in the same way as men can in a church assembly?

That is, if a man is given the gift of prophecy and a women is likewise given the same gift are you saying that both can speak up in a church assembly and declare their prophecy equally? Despite what 1 Cor 14:34 says about married women being silent in church?

Carlos

[Blake4000]

In a Godly society, women have a role. They are to be mothers and wifes to the Husband who will earn the money/bread and the wife, look after him and children, and the home. Thats their place according to the bible. Man will guide the family.

[Athene]

Cris...I am going to follow your good advice and ask before jumping in with correction or to make a point :thumbsup:

When you say that God gifts all, both men and women, as He wills (a point I heartedly agree with by the way) are you saying that women can exercise whatever gift they are given in the same way as men can in a church assembly?

That is, if a man is given the gift of prophecy and a women is likewise given the same gift are you saying that both can speak up in a church assembly and declare their prophecy equally? Despite what 1 Cor 14:34 says about married women being silent in church?

Carlos

They can exercise whatever gift they have providing it is done in an orderly fashion. That's the whole point of 1 Cor 14, it's a call for orderly worship. In most churches there is a time (in my church it is after worship) where people who have prophetic words can get up and share them with the church, but can you imagine what it would be like if anybody got up at anytime to share, interupting the speaker or in the middle of a hymn, chaos!!

It doesn't cause chaos in worship if a woman married or not goes up at the appropriate time to share a words she has recieved from God. It's absoultely nonsensical to say that married women should not speak in church because given the context of the passage it strongly implies that whenever a married woman opens her mouth to speak within chuch it causes disorder. It makes no sense, no sense at all I tell you.

In earlier posts you have said something along the lines that the reason for this verse is to stop women from taking the spotlight and that instead they should devote their energies to encouraging their husbands to use speaking gifts, that's the basic gist is it not?

But looking at Eph 5 we see that husbands are the head of the wife, and Christ is the head of the church. Let's look at tha metaphor, does Christ order us around, tell us what to do? Does Christ insist we devote our energies to encouraging him instead of using our gifts for other ministries? No and no!! Christ builds us up and encourages us, he gives us strength, he enables us. And this is what husbands should do for their wives. Headship does not equal entitlement, it does not mean getting the whole family to jump to your tune. It's about making sure your wife is growing into the person God wants her to be, so if a man has a wife with a strong prophetic gifting then as her head he is obliged to encourage her to use it, to build her up, to not hold her back. It's a tall order and to be honest not many men are up to the task, but if a man truly wants to be the head of his wife then that is what he must do.

[Floatingaxe]

They can exercise whatever gift they have providing it is done in an orderly fashion. That's the whole point of 1 Cor 14, it's a call for orderly worship. In most churches there is a time (in my church it is after worship) where people who have prophetic words can get up and share them with the church, but can you imagine what it would be like if anybody got up at anytime to share, interupting the speaker or in the middle of a hymn, chaos!!

It doesn't cause chaos in worship if a woman married or not goes up at the appropriate time to share a words she has recieved from God. It's absoultely nonsensical to say that married women should not speak in church because given the context of the passage it strongly implies that whenever a married woman opens her mouth to speak within chuch it causes disorder. It makes no sense, no sense at all I tell you.

In earlier posts you have said something along the lines that the reason for this verse is to stop women from taking the spotlight and that instead they should devote their energies to encouraging their husbands to use speaking gifts, that's the basic gist is it not?

But looking at Eph 5 we see that husbands are the head of the wife, and Christ is the head of the church. Let's look at tha metaphor, does Christ order us around, tell us what to do? Does Christ insist we devote our energies to encouraging him instead of using our gifts for other ministries? No and no!! Christ builds us up and encourages us, he gives us strength, he enables us. And this is what husbands should do for their wives. Headship does not equal entitlement, it does not mean getting the whole family to jump to your tune. It's about making sure your wife is growing into the person God wants her to be, so if a man has a wife with a strong prophetic gifting then as her head he is obliged to encourage her to use it, to build her up, to not hold her back. It's a tall order and to be honest not many men are up to the task, but if a man truly wants to be the head of his wife then that is what he must do.


Excellent!

It is the mark of a Godly husband who does all he can to promote his wife to serve God with all her giftings. Amen! A Godly man is not threatened by his wife's spiritual strengths, but is blessed in having the Lord's favour on his own house because of her.

That is the mark of a husband loving her as Christ loves the Church...He serves Her and has given His life for Her.

I am so blessed to have a husband like that. He serves. My husand points the way to Christ because of the way He loves me. He makes it easy to see Christ and His direction for me because of his encouragement. A man who loves like this encourages his wife to be all she can be and all she has been called to be in Christ. He would never stand in her way, insisting on his own way. When he encourages her ministry, God is pleased and blesses him and his household.

[Cris413]

Cris...I am going to follow your good advice and ask before jumping in with correction or to make a point :thumbsup:

When you say that God gifts all, both men and women, as He wills (a point I heartedly agree with by the way) are you saying that women can exercise whatever gift they are given in the same way as men can in a church assembly?

That is, if a man is given the gift of prophecy and a women is likewise given the same gift are you saying that both can speak up in a church assembly and declare their prophecy equally? Despite what 1 Cor 14:34 says about married women being silent in church?

Carlos

Scripture more than adequately...supports women speaking in church as well as being in leadership in church.

1 Corinthians 14:29 Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said.

v30 And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop.

v31 For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged.

v32 The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets

v33 For God is not a God of disorder but of peace.

Please notice...Paul is talking about prophesy...not asking questions. I think it's pretty clear the gift of prophesy is a gift of the Spirit.

It is also clear in Scripture that women can and do prophecy...

So either Scripture contridicts itself...or someone has taken 1 Corinthians 14:34 out of context...

v35 goes on to say If they want to inquire about something (notice Paul does not say prophecy) they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.

Now...has Paul said these same things regarding Priscilla or Phoebe? Phoebe who was a deaconess? Or Priscilla when she and Aquila admonished Apolos for his error?

So either God contradicts Himself throughout His word...or the absolute and literal interpretation of one verse in the Bible that women should not speak in church is not being interpreted correctly.

Think I'll go with God's word being inerrant and infallable and that Paul is speaking in 1 Corinthians 14:34 about women in the congregation being disruptive in church by asking questions in an inappropriate manner.

[carlos123]

Hi Cris,

Scripture more than adequately...supports women speaking in church as well as being in leadership in church.

1 Corinthians 14:29 Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said.

v30 And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop.

v31 For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged.

v32 The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets

v33 For God is not a God of disorder but of peace.

Please notice...Paul is talking about prophesy...not asking questions. I think it's pretty clear the gift of prophesy is a gift of the Spirit.


We can agree that Paul is talking about prophecy in the above verses Cris. For sure. And that the gift of prophesy is a gift of the Spirit...yes.


It is also clear in Scripture that women can and do prophecy...


Yes...the Scripture is clear regarding that too. That women were given the gift of prophecy in the New Testament. There are certainly examples of that.


So either Scripture contridicts itself...or someone has taken 1 Corinthians 14:34 out of context...


I do not agree with either Cris. I mean I do not agree that the Scriptures contradict themselves or that someone has taken 1 Cor 14:34 out of context. It says what it says.

I do not seek to make certain verses fit my idea of what Scripture teaches. I take what the Scriptures say at face value and try to understand how all the verses on this issue fit into God's way of things.

I see no contradiction at all in upholding what 1 Cor 14:34 says. In the context and taking all of Scripture into account.


v35 goes on to say If they want to inquire about something (notice Paul does not say prophecy) they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.

Now...has Paul said these same things regarding Priscilla or Phoebe? Phoebe who was a deaconess? Or Priscilla when she and Aquila admonished Apolos for his error?

So either God contradicts Himself throughout His word...or the absolute and literal interpretation of one verse in the Bible that women should not speak in church is not being interpreted correctly.


The verse in question is the one we are presently discussing but it is by no means the only one that talks to this issue. I can think of several more but here is a particularly relevant set of verses I think that lines up with what Paul said in 1 Cor 14:34 about married women being silent.

1 Timothy 2:12

Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence.


I am not reading these verses out of context or mis-interpreting them when I support what they say in the plain meaning of the words used.

You on the other hand seem to ignore the plain meaning of these verses and cry foul when I am for us practicing what they say.


Think I'll go with God's word being inerrant and infallable and that Paul is speaking in 1 Corinthians 14:34 about women in the congregation being disruptive in church by asking questions in an inappropriate manner.

Yes...you can go with whatever belief you care to go with Cris. We all can. But if you want to truly stick to God's word then may I suggest that you adhere to the plain meaning of what is said in all verses? Seeming contradiction or not we do not have the option as Christians to simply negate or deny the plain meaning of any verses because they seem to contradict others.

I see no contradiction between any of these verses and others. Women are given the gift of prophecy. That is clear. But Paul admonished some, married women, to be silent in church assemblies. That is not a contradiction Cris. That is Paul clarifying when married women can practice that gift.

To say that is contradictory would be like saying that Paul contradicted himself again by saying that we should all seek to prophecy and then restricting that gift to only be exercised by at most 2 or 3.

I appreciate you sharing your views Cris but it seems to me that you are not taking what the verses say at face value. Rather you are negating what they say based on your assumption that to take them at face value would be contradictory to other things Paul said. or that doing so would be..well..to mis-interpret them.

In other words no matter what, to you, they simply cannot say what they say at face value.

I say we get back to the plain meaning of what is said in the Word and stop discussing assumptions, speculations, conjectures, and otherwise that negate the plain meaning of what is said about married women being silent in church assemblies.

Carlos

[Athene]

Yes...you can go with whatever belief you care to go with Cris. We all can. But if you want to truly stick to God's word then may I suggest that you adhere to the plain meaning of what is said in all verses? Seeming contradiction or not we do not have the option as Christians to simply negate or deny the plain meaning of any verses because they seem to contradict others.


That's completely wrong, if our interpretation of scripture is contradicted elsewhere we should not hold onto that interpretation but closely review it. The fact that you insist on a plain reading and reject the historical and cultural context, the fact that your reject the Greek word studies which shows that the word 'speak' actually more closely translates as 'chatter'. The fact that you refuse to even look at the other Bible verses which show your view to be in gross error says to me you are not interested one bit in finding out what the Bible truely says.

That's not right . . . . it's not even wrong.

Floatingaxe, Cris and whoever else has contributed, read this paragraphy posted by our friend Carlos, read it carefully. He's interested in learning the truth, he's got his 'plain meaning' of scripture and even though it is contradicted and he admits so himself he won't budge because if you rip this verse out of the Bible and ignore the rest of the passage, and ignore the historical context, and ignore other verses in the Bible of women being called to speak and prophesy then it does say women should be silent in church.

We all know that you cannot build a doctrine on a single verse if it is contradicted elsewhere in the Bible . . . . maybe one day Carlos will too . . . .

[Floatingaxe]

That's completely wrong, if our interpretation of scripture is contradicted elsewhere we should not hold onto that interpretation but closely review it. The fact that you insist on a plain reading and reject the historical and cultural context, the fact that your reject the Greek word studies which shows that the word 'speak' actually more closely translates as 'chatter'. The fact that you refuse to even look at the other Bible verses which show your view to be in gross error says to me you are not interested one bit in finding out what the Bible truely says.

That's not right . . . . it's not even wrong.

Floatingaxe, Cris and whoever else has contributed, read this paragraphy posted by our friend Carlos, read it carefully. He's interested in learning the truth, he's got his 'plain meaning' of scripture and even though it is contradicted and he admits so himself he won't budge because if you rip this verse out of the Bible and ignore the rest of the passage, and ignore the historical context, and ignore other verses in the Bible of women being called to speak and prophesy then it does say women should be silent in church.

We all know that you cannot build a doctrine on a single verse if it is contradicted elsewhere in the Bible . . . . maybe one day Carlos will too . . . .


Exactly! Thank you, Athene!

[Cris413]

Carlos...you error in the same way in your thought that 1 Timothy 2:12 supports your thoughts (in plain meaning) that women should remain silent in church as in
1 Corinthians 14:34

David Guzik is the director of Calvary Chapel Bible College, Germany. He previously served as the Senior Pastor of Calvary Chapel Simi Valley. David has published excellent study materials which have been edifying the Blue Letter Bible community for almost five years.

Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence.

David Guzik writes regarding 1 Timothy 2:12:

a. Let a woman learn in silence: This unfortunate translation has led some to believe that it is forbidden for women to even speak in church meetings. Paul uses the same word translated silence in 1 Timothy 2:2 (http://blueletterbible.org/kjv/1Ti/1Ti002.html#2), and it is translated peaceable there. The idea is without contention instead of total silence.

i. In other places in the New Testament, even in the writings of Paul, women are specifically mentioned as praying and speaking in the church (1 Corinthians 11:5 (http://blueletterbible.org/kjv/1Cr/1Cr011.html#5)). To learn in silence has the idea of women receiving the teaching of the men God has chosen to lead in the church, with submission instead of contention.

I totally agree with Athene you are quite incorrect in your literal and absolute (plain meaning) Of 1 Corinthians 14:34 as well as in your thought that 1 Timothy 2:12 supports your plain meaning.

So, again, I will choose to stay with the understanding of these verses as I've been taught over the past 16 or so years, by various Pastor/Teachers, anointed men of God called to serve Him with the gift of pastoring and teaching as led by the Holy Spirit.

And this pretty much ends my discussion of this subject with you Carlos...

Peace

[Floatingaxe]

Carlos...you error in the same way in your thought that 1 Timothy 2:12 supports your thoughts (in plain meaning) that women should remain silent in church as in
1 Corinthians 14:34

David Guzik is the director of Calvary Chapel Bible College, Germany. He previously served as the Senior Pastor of Calvary Chapel Simi Valley. David has published excellent study materials which have been edifying the Blue Letter Bible community for almost five years.

Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence.

David Guzik writes regarding 1 Timothy 2:12:

a. Let a woman learn in silence: This unfortunate translation has led some to believe that it is forbidden for women to even speak in church meetings. Paul uses the same word translated silence in 1 Timothy 2:2 (http://blueletterbible.org/kjv/1Ti/1Ti002.html#2), and it is translated peaceable there. The idea is without contention instead of total silence.

i. In other places in the New Testament, even in the writings of Paul, women are specifically mentioned as praying and speaking in the church (1 Corinthians 11:5 (http://blueletterbible.org/kjv/1Cr/1Cr011.html#5)). To learn in silence has the idea of women receiving the teaching of the men God has chosen to lead in the church, with submission instead of contention.

I totally agree with Athene you are quite incorrect in your literal and absolute (plain meaning) Of 1 Corinthians 14:34 as well as in your thought that 1 Timothy 2:12 supports your plain meaning.

So, again, I will choose to stay with the understanding of these verses as I've been taught over the past 16 or so years, by various Pastor/Teachers, anointed men of God called to serve Him with the gift of pastoring and teaching as led by the Holy Spirit.

And this pretty much ends my discussion of this subject with you Carlos...

Peace


Excellent post, Cris! :bow:

[Cris413]

<snip>
There is some problems with the translations from Greek and Hebrew into English as well as there are some problems with the translation from 16th century English into 21th century English and some problems with the hand written transcripts through out history, but those do not detract from the global message of the bible and only introduce problems if you concentrate on trying to make doctrine from one single word or passage rather than taking in to account everything that was said involving a subject in the rest of the bible, all 66 books.

This diffenately is worthy of a repeat. I do encourage reading the full post.

While yes there are problems with various translations... God's message is not lost to those who sincerely and with dedication seek Him and study His word by the power of the His Holy Spirit into wisdom and understanding.

I might also add there is great value in being under the shepherdship and teaching of an anointed Pastor/Teacher called by God.

[MaidforHim]

Carlos...you error in the same way in your thought that 1 Timothy 2:12 supports your thoughts (in plain meaning) that women should remain silent in church as in
1 Corinthians 14:34

David Guzik is the director of Calvary Chapel Bible College, Germany. He previously served as the Senior Pastor of Calvary Chapel Simi Valley. David has published excellent study materials which have been edifying the Blue Letter Bible community for almost five years.

Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence.

David Guzik writes regarding 1 Timothy 2:12:

a. Let a woman learn in silence: This unfortunate translation has led some to believe that it is forbidden for women to even speak in church meetings. Paul uses the same word translated silence in 1 Timothy 2:2 (http://blueletterbible.org/kjv/1Ti/1Ti002.html#2), and it is translated peaceable there. The idea is without contention instead of total silence.

i. In other places in the New Testament, even in the writings of Paul, women are specifically mentioned as praying and speaking in the church (1 Corinthians 11:5 (http://blueletterbible.org/kjv/1Cr/1Cr011.html#5)). To learn in silence has the idea of women receiving the teaching of the men God has chosen to lead in the church, with submission instead of contention.

I totally agree with Athene you are quite incorrect in your literal and absolute (plain meaning) Of 1 Corinthians 14:34 as well as in your thought that 1 Timothy 2:12 supports your plain meaning.

So, again, I will choose to stay with the understanding of these verses as I've been taught over the past 16 or so years, by various Pastor/Teachers, anointed men of God called to serve Him with the gift of pastoring and teaching as led by the Holy Spirit.

And this pretty much ends my discussion of this subject with you Carlos...

Peace

Thanks for sharing the great teaching that supports and clarifies the meaning of these verses Cris.

I think Cris has summed up exactly how I feel about this too.
:wave:

[carlos123]

So, again, I will choose to stay with the understanding of these verses as I've been taught over the past 16 or so years, by various Pastor/Teachers, anointed men of God called to serve Him with the gift of pastoring and teaching as led by the Holy Spirit.


Yes...I think that about sums up your position Cris. Namely that you make a choice to go with what you been taught (your words) by men who are led by the Spirit.

I personally prefer to go to the written Word myself and to seek God and ask Him for understanding through His Spirit directly. Does that make me always right and others wrong? No way. But it does mean that I do not look to others to define what I will or will not believe. Nor do I look to others to defend what I believe. I prefer to let the Word stand on it's own.

I believe David may have a point in what he says about this set of verses. I am not certain of that because he takes liberties in commenting on other verses in his extensive commentary that I do not think one should. Nevertheless I want to remain open to what he says about 1 Timothy 2:12 and at some point will digg around some to better discern whether what he is saying is actually the case.

At the very least I am glad you brought up a good point of disagreement with what I was saying that makes sense and that I will have to look into and I thank you for that!

Carlos

[Floatingaxe]

Yes...I think that about sums up your position Cris. Namely that you make a choice to go with what you been taught (your words) by men who are led by the Spirit.

I personally prefer to go to the written Word myself and to seek God and ask Him for understanding through His Spirit directly. Does that make me always right and others wrong? No way. But it does mean that I do not look to others to define what I will or will not believe. Nor do I look to others to defend what I believe. I prefer to let the Word stand on it's own.

I believe David may have a point in what he says about this set of verses. I am not certain of that because he takes liberties in commenting on other verses in his extensive commentary that I do not think one should. Nevertheless I want to remain open to what he says about 1 Timothy 2:12 and at some point will digg around some to better discern whether what he is saying is actually the case.

At the very least I am glad you brought up a good point of disagreement with what I was saying that makes sense and that I will have to look into and I thank you for that!

Carlos


Cris has done exactly as we are called to do...follow after God-appointed men and women for sound teaching. We need to be taught, Carlos. God places people over us.

Hebrews 13:7
Remember your leaders who taught you the word of God. Think of all the good that has come from their lives, and follow the example of their faith.

Hebrews 13:17
Obey your spiritual leaders, and do what they say. Their work is to watch over your souls, and they are accountable to God. Give them reason to do this with joy and not with sorrow. That would certainly not be for your benefit.

[Cris413]

Cris has done exactly as we are called to do...follow after God-appointed men and women for sound teaching. We need to be taught, Carlos. God places people over us.

Hebrews 13:7
Remember your leaders who taught you the word of God. Think of all the good that has come from their lives, and follow the example of their faith.

Hebrews 13:17
Obey your spiritual leaders, and do what they say. Their work is to watch over your souls, and they are accountable to God. Give them reason to do this with joy and not with sorrow. That would certainly not be for your benefit.


Thank you sister,

Excellent Scripture...unfortunately...there are many "solo sheep" that's pretty evident in the threads regarding attending church.

I think there are many, many reasons God refers to us as sheep. A few of the most important IMO is that sheep need a shepherd and should flock together. It's generally the straying or lagging sheep that are vulnerable to trouble and danger.

Jesus Christ is the Good Shepherd and in all things we look to Him. I do think...just as He sent out the Disciples...He calls and anoints some as pastors and teachers and we would all do well to be under the care and teaching of an anointed Pastor-Teacher.

IMHO it would be foolish to ever consider we know so much that there is nothing to be learned from others anointed by God. Particularly those called according to His purpose with the gift of teaching and/or pastoring.

Even pastors and teachers understand the importance and value of being accountable to one another. No man is an island unto himself. I’m sure Timothy greatly valued and followed Paul’s teaching.

We are to learn without contention as the Word tells us. This doesn't mean, however, that we blindly follow the teaching of others. There are many self-proclaimed pastors and teachers that teach false doctrine and mislead many.

The point being it’s by the Holy Spirit we judge the fruit of our teachers. Good pastors will teach directly from the Word (preferably exponentially) and always encourage independent study and quiet time alone with God.

[LJSGM]

Human differences are sometimes a problem.
Conflicts can arise.
Some Christians are hot, some cold.
Some are lukewarm.
Some are simply "bumps on the log."
Some are stumbling stones.
Some have backgrounds of faith,
some have worldly pasts.
Some carry with them the baggage of prejudices,
and wrong teachings.

There are many differences and troubles in church congregations because of differences.

Even revival does not take away all conflicts from a congregation.
Revival is not a state of perfection of all the saints.

There were many conflicts in the early church during the former rain revival.

Acts 15 (http://www.biblegateway.net/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&x=0&y=0&passage=Acts+15%3A) is a conflict about whether circumcision is mandatory for Christians.

Both sides had zeal for God. Both were sincere.
Both felt they were totally right.
The arguments became open and in front of all.

God even had the writer of Acts to record this major conflict.
There are lessons to be learned by us of the latter rain revival in the debate that took place
within the early church on this subject.

There are always sincere, but misguided, people
within congregations
who want to set up rules and regulations,
doctrines, teachings, etc,
which have little or no basis in God's Word.
They can do much harm, and create heartache and misery.


Paul indicated that the one who has added regulations beyond those necessary is the weak one. In our congregations, there is a tendency to look at the one without the added regulations as the weak one. This is totally incorrect.

Some say, for instance, that a "spiritual" saint is a vegetarian. These saints who take on that added rule seem to flaunt it before other Christians who have not accepted that concept. They try to infer that they have found the true way, and the non-vegetarians are weaker, uneducated spiritually. Look at what Paul said of that controversy!

Romans 14:1-2 (http://www.biblegateway.net/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&x=0&y=0&passage=Romans+14%3A1-2)
"Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations. For one believeth that he may eat all things; another, who is weak, eateth herbs."


Who is the weaker saint? It is the one who has added an unnecessary rule. This debate on food was an area of dispute within the early church, as it often is in the latter rain revival. People can make different choices on diet and nutrition, but when they try to add it to the necessary items in salvation, or measure someone's spirituality by their choice in diet, it is wrong, and shows a weakness spiritually.

The plan of salvation is so simple. God simply wants us to repent of our sins and alienation from Him, and accept the death of Jesus as our redemption. With this simple step, we receive salvation.

John 3:3 (http://www.biblegateway.net/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&x=0&y=0&passage=John+3%3A3)
"Except ye.............ye cannot be saved."

The middle part of the above verse
is changed in many congregations.

In certain parts of the church age, saints have attempted to add regulations to that verse.

In the early church, one attempt was to add...
"be circumcised after the manner of Moses."

In other times and places, it has become-

"abstain from pork...",
"be baptized in water...",
"speak in an unknown tongue...",
"belong to 'such and such' a church",
"keep the Jewish customs and feasts",
"pay 10 % of your income to...",
"keep the Sabbath day,
"not be divorced",
"not remarry, if divorced...",
"have the proper hair length",
"have the proper hemline",
"use the correct version of the Bible",
etc.

Even here, we see some add some
teaching, that if you do not agree with it,
you are lost in error and deserve
great condemnation...

Is that proper, or not?



Here's a thought from someone else (not me), but very good.

[JolieHeart]

Sooo... Where in the Law, does it say for women to be silent please?

Not where in the Bible. Where in the law please?

GBU all :)

[carlos123]

Sooo... Where in the Law, does it say for women to be silent please?

Not where in the Bible. Where in the law please?

GBU all :)

Hi JolieHeart :wave:

It doesn't. My thread topic, I am the one who started this thread, was due to a misunderstanding on my part that the law said so somewhere. I mis-read what Paul was saying.

He said that the law says that a woman should be under obedience, not that she be silent. The silence being spoken of in the verses that were discussed on this thread was an expression of obedience.

Carlos

PS. I was just passing through JolieHeart and saw your post. If you want to discuss this more please PM me as I will unsubscribe myself from this thread - I am too busy with another thread to engage much if at all in posting on this one.

[JolieHeart]

Thank you Carlos for explaining. My apologies for not getting all that when reading through the posts. I tried to keep up but didn't do so well. Every poster has been a blessing and I've learned a lot. :)

GBU all :)

[Floatingaxe]

unfortunately...there are many "solo sheep" that's pretty evident in the threads regarding attending church.




Yes, Cris. It is very evident even here. It is such straggling sheep that we must not give ear to. People who choose to know God without the benefit of those who are elders in the faith are being stiff-necked sheep. They lead the sheep away from the Shepherd.

The Lord Jesus instructs us to honour those God blesses us with. To eschew His provision for teachers is to slap His hand away. It is an insult to God.

1Thessalonians 5:12
Dear brothers and sisters, honor those who are your leaders in the Lord’s work. They work hard among you and give you spiritual guidance.

And these once more:

Hebrews 13:7
Remember your leaders who taught you the word of God. Think of all the good that has come from their lives, and follow the example of their faith.

Hebrews 13:17
Obey your spiritual leaders, and do what they say. Their work is to watch over your souls, and they are accountable to God. Give them reason to do this with joy and not with sorrow. That would certainly not be for your benefit.

[LJSGM]

Yes, Cris. It is very evident even here. It is such straggling sheep that we must not give ear to. People who choose to know God without the benefit of those who are elders in the faith are being stiff-necked sheep. They lead the sheep away from the Shepherd.


When has this been about solo sheep? I especially think you judge others a bit too harshly when it's not your place.

And leading them away from the Shepherd? I don't see anyone leading anyone else away from the Shepherd Jesus. Stick to the OP please

[Floatingaxe]

When has this been about solo sheep? I think you judge a bit to harshly when it's not your place.


It is our responsibility as children of the Most High God to judge rightly, to be watchmen on the wall.

Those who do not belong to a flock of other believers have a sure tendency to become tangental in their "issues" and the big giveaway is when they say they would much rather study the Word on their own, refusing the benefit of sitting at the feet of spiritual elders that God has so wonderfully placed in their lives.

Big giveaway. Our job is to recognize that and run.

[LJSGM]

It is our responsibility as children of the Most High God to judge rightly, to be watchmen on the wall.

Those who do not belong to a flock of other believers have a sure tendency to become tangental in their "issues" and the big giveaway is when they say they would much rather study the Word on their own, refusing the benefit of sitting at the feet of spiritual elders that God has so wonderfully placed in their lives.

Big giveaway. Our job is to recognize that and run.

But you do not know ANYONE's situation on this forum or God's will for their lives, so how can you so unrightly judge them?

[LJSGM]

Romans 14

4Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand (not the church or other believers).

5One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. 8If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. 9For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. 10You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat.

[Floatingaxe]

But you do not know ANYONE's situation on this forum or God's will for their lives, so how can you so unrightly judge them?


It is suspicious when someone is asked about their leaders' views on a subject matter and he/she refuses to offer an answer.

A ready and open response is what is desirable from a sister or brother in Christ.

[LJSGM]

It is suspicious when someone is asked about their leaders' views on a subject matter and he/she refuses to offer an answer.

A ready and open response is what is desirable from a sister or brother in Christ.
Do someone ask me a question?

[Floatingaxe]

Do someone ask me a question?


Dear fellow posters:

I have PM'd dear LJSGM and have apologized for my perceived judgmentalism in this thread.

I apologize to the rest of you! :bow:

My remarks were indeed harsh, not without containing a valid warning, but I admit they were not actually intended for this particular thread.

Please forgive this old battleaxe! :blush:

[FollowTheLamb]

Has the OP question been answered yet? If not, here is the original verse posted:

1 Corinthians 14:34
Let your women keep silent in the churches: for it is not permitted for them to speak; but they are commanded to be obedient, as says the law. 35 (sword:///I%20Corinthians%2014:35) And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

OK, where is the commandment found in the law? Gen. 3:16: "Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."

The law does not command the woman to be silent. Paul said the law commands a woman to be obedient. "He shall rule over thee." Does that answer your question?

[Merciel]

Has the OP question been answered yet? If not, here is the original verse posted:

1 Corinthians 14:34
Let your women keep silent in the churches: for it is not permitted for them to speak; but they are commanded to be obedient, as says the law. 35 (sword:///I%20Corinthians%2014:35) And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

OK, where is the commandment found in the law? Gen. 3:16: "Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."

The law does not command the woman to be silent. Paul said the law commands a woman to be obedient. "He shall rule over thee." Does that answer your question?


That wasn't a command. He was describing the consequences of their sin. That's like saying that God commanded the Israelites to eat their own children when He warned them of the consequences of apostasy.

[FollowTheLamb]

Merciel,
I understand your viewpoint. Let's look at it another way. Let's say that you and your new husband were in the room with a judge. The judge points his gavel at you and says to you, "He shall rule over you." Now what part is the judge commanding you to play?

[Floatingaxe]

That wasn't a command. He was describing the consequences of their sin. That's like saying that God commanded the Israelites to eat their own children when He warned them of the consequences of apostasy.


Yes, that is right! :thumbsup:

[carlos123]

It is suspicious when someone is asked about their leaders' views on a subject matter and he/she refuses to offer an answer.

A ready and open response is what is desirable from a sister or brother in Christ.

I happend to be passing by Flo and noticed what you said.

Do you realize that you are spreading slander about me on this thread? A thread I have ceased to be a part of?

I was the one you asked that too on another thread. Your questions were way off topic to the thread in question and I saw them as just stirring up strife so I chose to ignore them (for both reasons). We were discussing head coverings and what my leaders thought of the issue had nothing whatever to do with the topic under discussion (what Paul meant to say to those in Corinth about head coverings).

As it is Flo I would not discuss any such things with you at this point for no matter what I say you seem to see evil in me to no end and end up twisting what I say to suit your own view of me. A view that allows you to conveniently ignore what I say about various Biblical issues including how you come accross in the various posts where you express yourself.

Incidentally I remember asking you once about your relative willingness to do something that God might want of you and your exact words were, if I remember correctly "that's between me and God". I find it strange that you would want me to give you a ready and open response to whatever question you put to me, even if off-topic, when you will not do the same with questions that I ask of you. Strange indeed.

You can go on slandering me on this thread if you wish Flo. What I mean is that I won't see it since I don't usually pass by this thread any more and am not subscribed to it, receiving no notice that any response has been made. I say what I did to make sure others are not so easily taken in by your slanderous accusations against me.

Carlos

[Floatingaxe]

Huh?????????????