Elders vs Pastors? [Archive] - Christian Forums

Balance

28th April 2007, 09:13 PM

The modern day practice of having a board of elders presiding over a local church alongside a head pastor is extra-biblical. Such a pattern of church government is nowhere to be found in the New Testament. Even the word “pastor” is not a word that was used in New Testament times to refer to church leaders as is so commonly done today. Furthermore one will not find a single example of one person being a head pastor anywhere in the New Testament. Sad to say the pattern of church leadership that one sees in the Biblical example is virtually non-existent today.

Where you make your error is in overlooking the Greek word for 'overseer'. Translated into English as Pastor, Bishop, Elder and overseer.

The Biblical example that you claim is virtually non-existant has been in existance since the first church at Jerusalem.

Stephan was a deacon

James the Brother of Jesus was a pastor

Timothy was the head pastor in a church that numbered 20,000+

Mark was a Bishop in Alexandria when he was murdered for his faith

Luke was an Evangelist out of the church in Jerusalem.

The first persecution under Nero targeted the leaders - overseers, pastors, bishops of the churches including Erastus, chamberlain of Corinth; Aristarchus, the Macedonian, and Trophimus, an Ephesians, converted by St. Paul, and fellow-laborer with him, Joseph, commonly called Barsabas, and Ananias, bishop of Damascus; each of the Seventy.

You might want to do a little more research.

and yes, your page sounds like you have a BIG BIG axe to grind.

Cris413

28th April 2007, 10:55 PM

Perhaps I don't understand the purpose of your paper or your website. Is it to reach out in truth and in the Spirit...or merely a forum to vent your frustrations?

I'm not a Bible Scholar or in leadership of any kind. Most of us are simply seeking to grow in the Spirit and be willing, useful vessels to God. To serve Him and give Him glory.

To be a more obedient, fruitful Christians today than we were yesterday.

What is your paper designed to do? Is it designed to encourage or discourage?

Who is your target audience? Pastors? Teachers? Elders? Believers? Non-believers? Malcontents?

I may not be qualified to critique your writing skills or your knowledge or lack there of, regarding Scripture. My only qualification may be, as a Christian, to express the impact your words had on my heart.

I was not inspired. I felt it was angry and I was not encouraged. It saddened me really...

Even the title of this thread encourages division and distrust...

I'm sorry I have no more to offer than that.

God bless

carlos123

28th April 2007, 11:11 PM

Thanks for your input Balance.

May I point out that few of the examples you give are found in the Bible?

That is to say that...

Stephen was a deacon. You are correct. But what does that have to do with the subject of elders and pastors?

James the brother of Jesus was a pastor? Hmm... chapter and verse please?

Timothy was a head pastor?? Where does it say that? In a church of 20,000?? Where is that found please.

Mark was Bishop in Alexandria? Maybe so. But how does that point to an error in my saying that the Biblical model as was practiced in the New Testament is virtually non-existant today?

Luke an evangelist? Could be. Chapter and verse please. But if so again...what does that have to do with the subject of my paper??

Trust me Balance I have no problem admitting error if that is the case. God forbid that I should sit here and say God's Word says something that isn't so. But quite frankly I cannot for the life of me grasp where I am in error from the examples you gave.

You say that I sound like I have a big axe to grind. Could be. I don't yet see it. But could be. But can you be more specific? I mean Cris413 said I come accross totally angry. The next poster might say that I sound selfish. Another one that I come accross like I am having a temper tantrum.

Could you be more specific? Why do I sound like I have a big axe to grind? What do I say that makes it sound like that?

I mean I can't admit to something that I have no handle on being able to admit if somebody does not do me the kindness of helping me understand what it is that I am saying that makes me so and so.

I am not resisting correction. Not at all. I just want to get a better handle on whether what you and Cris have said is true or not. Just because you guys say it is don't make it so :). Could be but not neccessarily.

I mean goodness gracious what would you guys have said to what Jesus said to the Pharisees in His day? That He was judgmental? That he had a great big axe to grind? That He was rude?

Just because I am speaking about something that is not ... shall we say very acceptable. Just because it does not put modern, North American church leadership, in a very good light does not mean that I am speaking in unrighteous anger or that I have a big axe to grind.

Specifics please...if and you don't mind. I sure would appreciate it.

Carlos

carlos123

28th April 2007, 11:35 PM

Thanks again Cris413 (I wish I knew how to quote previos replies. Haven't figured that one out yet).

I understand.

My paper or web site if you will is to reach out to Christians in general to see if the Lord might not put it on the heart of some to join me in seeking Him on these things. I am sick of churchianity. I am sick of lukewarm and halfhearted Christianity. I believe that it can be different. I believe that we can once again see the kind of love and committment and blessing experienced by New Testament Christians in terms of how the Lord worked through them and the kind of fellowship they had.

And so...I am creating a web site to see what the Lord may do with it.

Instead of complaining about church as it is or how it falls short I want to trust God to do something about it through me and others who are willing to consider and be obedient to what the Bible says about these things.

It's a way to reach out to fellow Christians.

My paper and web site is not designed to encourage or discourage. It is designed to speak the truth as I understand it to be from God. North American Christians have in general grown comfortable and complacent. I believe that the Lord has given me a heart to speak in such a way that He can cut accross that in the circles of relationship around me. But I have to be carefully and prayerfully consider how to best say things that He may lay on my heart. I make a lot of mistakes. I sometimes say things judgmentally. Unlovingly. But I will no longer sit by and say nothing to all the Christian baloney going on around me (not saying that everything Christian around me is baloney - just a lot of it).

My target audience is Christians in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada. In the city I live in. I will go door to door with a flyer pointing to my web site and get together with any who might want to discuss these things in more depth.

I appreciate your input Cris413 even if you are not a biblical scholar or English essayist. There is no need to be either. God can still speak through you and correct me through you.

In regard to your last statement Cris413 about the title of this thread being divisive...may I say that Jesus Himself said that He came not to bring peace but division (Luke 12:51).

Truth...real truth...divides Cris413. It divides between those who are for it and submit to it and those who do not. It reveals by our reaction to it where our hearts are at.

Don't get me wrong. There is to be sure bad division. Of the kind that God opposes in the Body. But division based on what His Word says is not neccessarily a bad thing if that division is caused by some not siding with His truth because they are unwilling to hear and put it into practice.

If I speak truth regarding elders and pastors and that truth causes division between those who are willing to embrace God's way of church leadership and those who are not (assuming what I say is Scripturally sound) then that division is a good one. If what I say is not Scriptural and I stick to my guns and act to purposely cause division in the Body, God Himself will oppose me.

I hope that makes sense.

Carlos

Cris413

29th April 2007, 12:14 AM

Well...the problem I see with this...from the perspective if you came to my door with your flyer...is that I would much prefer to hear the gospel message.

I think I would be a little dismayed if someone came to my door with a flyer suggesting I question my church leadership. (which I love btw)

The church leadership I'm familiar with is nothing like what you're describing.

Yes, we have a pastor and elders and somehow they all seem to work together with the Body to serve and glorify God.

As for division...there is unity in the Spirit...Ephesians 4 is a good place to start reading.

The division is in the flesh...not in the Spirit. Jesus does not come to divide the Spirit...but the flesh from the Spirit. At least this is my understanding.

I would expound on this further...but it's late and I need to get up early for church.

Maybe I should print out a copy of your webpage and take it to my pastor...since most of it seems to be directed at his work for God.

Perhaps he can give me the input you desire?

In the meantime...I'm glad you're seeking this prayerfully...please continue to do so, perhaps asking God to reveal to you what He wants you to do to further His kingdom...rather than dismantle it.

walshclan

29th April 2007, 12:47 AM

Carlos:

I see a number of problems with your study. I would love you to figure out why you dislike the current style of churches and whether your dislike of them is personal (you've been personally hurt by them) or whether you think it is actually that the church is less Godly.

1. Christ set us free from legalism. How we set up the church does not concern him, whether we are a community of people who have a good relationship with him DOES concern him. The JOB of our leaders is made clear, but it is not spelled out like in the old testament how the church should be set up.

2. Many churches have elders that do help lead the flock and minister to the people of the congregation. Our church is lead by elders but I don't think that makes it any more or less Godly than another church. What makes a church Godly is the peoples hearts.

3. Timothy was an elder and was quite young. He was called to be an elder/minister because of his prophesying abilities and his Godliness. If we try to make all elders older experienced men we miss the Timothy's of the world.

4. We don't follow the leader of the church anyhow, (1Cor1:12) we follow Christ. So it is immaterial whether we have 1,2,or 20 people at the front of the church. The leader of the church is Christ and He says "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation." Mark 16:15 We are all supposed to preach the good news, not just the minister/elders.

5. There are things that Jesus commands for us to do, like "Go and preach the good news" and there are things that God commands us to do that Christ released us from "Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" . Finally there were things that were a certain way during NT times that we were not commanded about. If God had thought this mportant He would have had Paul or Peter or Luke or John say something about how a church must be a certain way.

In Him,

carlos123

29th April 2007, 01:07 AM

Well...the problem I see with this...from the perspective if you came to my door with your flyer...is that I would much prefer to hear the gospel message.

Hmmm...well...since my flyer is directed at the few in a neighborhood...namely the Christians, sharing the gospel is not something that would be neccessary. Unless and until I got to know those who might respond such that I might discover some that were not real Christians and end up sharing the gospel with them :).

My flyer by the way wil not be about "Elders vs Pastors". That's just one of my web pages. My flyer will be very short and mainly focused in getting Christians to go to my web site to see more. It will (hopefully) tickle their interest to go to the web site. Some local Christians have already told me that if they saw my flyer they would be curious enough to go to my web site.

I think I would be a little dismayed if someone came to my door with a flyer suggesting I question my church leadership. (which I love btw)
Hmmm...I can see that I might need to reword some of what I said Cris413 or otherwise add something to it such that one's do not think I am suggesting that they in particular question their church leaders in particular. What I would want and what I believe the Lord wants is that we question the whole system of church tradition that has resulted in the modern day style of leadership. Not that any one leader is ungodly, unwilling, or otherwise.

Mind you that church leadership is just ONE of many issues that I will address on my web site. Others are the role of women in church, head coverings, church discipline, what is the Word of God, overall church practice in the New Testament, and so forth.

The church leadership I'm familiar with is nothing like what you're describing.
Hmm...your input has made it imperitive that I re-read and pray over my paper Cris413. Which I will most certainly do!

For it is not a particular church leader that I am wanting to describe or speak against. Rather I want to draw attention to the biblical model of church leadership as opposed to the current one and why it would be good and God honoring to get back to New Testament practice.

Yes, we have a pastor and elders and somehow they all seem to work together with the Body to serve and glorify God.
They sound like good people Cris413 and you sound blessed to have them as church leaders. But at the same time Cris (I hope it's okay to call you that - I am tired of writing out the numbers :)) I would encourage them to ask themselves whether the model of church leadership they are presently following is a tradition of man or based on the biblical example. If not the biblical example then I would suggest that as good as they may be, they are falling short of being all that God would have them be as leaders.

As for division...there is unity in the Spirit...Ephesians 4 is a good place to start reading.
For sure Cris. Unity in the Spirit is a great thing!

The division is in the flesh...not in the Spirit. Jesus does not come to divide the Spirit...but the flesh from the Spirit. At least this is my understanding.
Hmm...good point. You see...you are a biblical scholar after all :).

I would say that those who are unwilling when faced with a truth that God would have us apply are operating in the flesh though they may still be Christian.

I would expound on this further...but it's late and I need to get up early for church.
No problem Cris. I very much appreciate your input and that of Balance.

Ahh...I get to sleep in :). There are some distinct advantages to being ... well ... shall we say a person who does not attend church inside buildings on Sunday mornings on any regular basis if at all? Like me.

May the Lord bless you in church tommorrow Cris!

Maybe I should print out a copy of your webpage and take it to my pastor...since most of it seems to be directed at his work for God.
Feel free Cris. Pastors usually don't have much time to discuss these types of issues with me but I would love to hear your pastor's input through you or directly if he has any.

Perhaps he can give me the input you desire?
Your input has been valuable Cris. I was looking mainly to whether what I said was Scriptural (no one has really responded to that) and the spirit in which I said it (you and Balance said some things which may or may not be - I don't think they are but I am open to more specifics if anyone has a mind to correct me further).

In the meantime...I'm glad you're seeking this prayerfully...please continue to do so, perhaps asking God to reveal to you what He wants you to do to further His kingdom...rather than dismantle it.No intention to dismantle His kingdom here Cris. None. God forbid! I want His kingdom to advance. Greatly. But I want to see it advance on His terms and in His way. Not ours as in man's tradition.

Carlos

Floatingaxe

29th April 2007, 01:17 AM

I was wondering if someone could critique the first web page I have completed in what I hope will be a web site full of such pages. Once I get 10 or so pages up I will create flyers and distribute various versions in selected neighborhoods in the city I live in with a goal of seeing Christians come together to discuss these things and seek the Lord on what to do to bring about true New Testament Christianity.

My first page is on how the leadership structure commonly found in most North American churches is extra-biblical and how the model of New Testament leadership is virtually non-existant.

I am especially interested in knowing how it comes accross. Am I saying things in the right spirit? Why or why not? Is what I say Scriptural? Why or why not?

Any input would be appreciated.

Here is the link:

http://christian-at.awardspace.com/elders-and-pastors.html

Thanks.

Carlos

I agree with your opinions. Our church is one whose pastors all agree on one thing: the pastor-centric church is not biblical. As a cell church, we all are taught to aspire leadership as co-pastors with them, as not merely leaders in the church, but primarily leaders in the community, and the world at large. :thumbsup:

carlos123

29th April 2007, 01:18 AM

Hmmm...

Thanks for your input walshclan!

Hmm...I will have to address whether the model of church government that is in the New Testament is something that God would have us apply today. I can see that there might some question as to whether that is and whether such a model is important to apply or not.

What I have said in my paper by the way is not new. Many, many Christians believe what I have said in my paper. The problem is that most are not willing to do much of anything about it since it would invariably require a great big change in current church practice. Many churches like corporations resist change even if that change is good.

Off the top of my head I would say it's not legalistic to say that we should apply what the New Testament teaches either explicitly or by example. I love the Lord and want to do things His way is all.

Carlos

walshclan

29th April 2007, 01:54 AM

carlos123

29th April 2007, 02:44 AM

Hmmm....a verse comes to mind...tearing...hmmm....

Jesus said that new wine must be put into new wineskins. If not the new wine will tear the old.

Hmm...I'll have to think about that.

Might not be so good to ask advice about things like this from Christians at large since many are used to the old wine and resist the new or so it would seem from what Jesus said.

Seems that what Jesus said might apply to trying to get the church to change it's ways. My intention has not been to change the church but to start something new. I've given up on getting the church in general to change. Won't happen. It's as bad as trying to get a corporation to change it's corporate practice.

Hmmm...indeed. I'll have to pray about all this.

Thanks walshclan.

Carlos

mannequinsmile

29th April 2007, 03:26 AM

Well-done Carlos. I agree with your website. Also, your replies to posts are very clear and well spoken, eloquent. I love how you equated getting a church to change with getting a corporation to change. Indeed, corporations have done well modeling themselves after the modern church. This is the principle behind “be ye not of the world”. The modern evangelical church has adopted a man born, carnal infrastructure that is the absolute pinnacle of being of the world.

Also...

Hmmm...
I will have to address whether the model of church government that is in the New Testament is something that God would have us apply today. I can see that there might some question as to whether that is and whether such a model is important to apply or not.

This a very important question, albeit an unpopular one. Keep it up!!!

JTLauder

29th April 2007, 04:00 AM

I haven't studied this issue before, so I can't comment exactly what the Bible says about the different roles of church members in leadership role. So I will comment on how I perceive your essay comes across (because that's what you asked for), my experiences with church leadership, and my thoughts on the matter.

I would agree that your essay has a hint of anger as if you were taking this issue on personally. To point out where I pick that up, it's especially evident at the end. "Church leaders would have to be willing to cut their own throats to see it happen." And that whole paragraph actually. That's a very graphic image you have in head about church leaders' attitude.

And in your last paragraph, "I say that it is better to be a church with no recognized leadership at first than to be one with the wrong model of leadership." That statement is unbiblical. With no leadership, there would just be total chaos where everyone is trying to speak at once and wanting things to go their way. Paul in numerous places tries to establish protocol for churches to avoid just such chaos.

Another example is your solution is to start new churches. It's one thing to promote your point by creating new churches that follow your model of church leadership from the congregation. But you emphasis is not only leadership from the congregation, but a total rejection of any leaders from people with formal seminary education. Regardless of your position on church leader professionals taking sole leadership responsibilities, it would be wrong to completely reject them as possible leaders too.

My experiences with the few churches I've been privy to church leadership happenings does not involve the pastor being the sole voice of the church. The pastor is the spiritual leader, but in regards to church administration, the board of deacons (respected members of the congregation) actually makes all the decisions including firing or hiring the pastor for the church.

I would completely disagree with your statement of current church leaders being unresponsive to raising up church leaders because they are "protecting their turf, in maintaining control", not that there are not churches like this, but doubt that's the norm.

I think this one church I was once a part of that had the biggest problems with church leadership serves as an example of perhaps what I consider to be a bigger problem in regards to this issue for most churches. Actually it's a two-pronged issue and they perpetuate the problem together.

This church I used to attend when I was a young Christian had a very few people doing all the work all the time for the church. They all cried out for church leadership and totally depended on the pastor for all guidance and decisions. When a group of us decided to step up and do our point, we were suddenly confronted with the fact that we had no experience, teaching or basis to know what to do. That's the first part of the problem--no Biblical teaching or discipleship.

When others, especially those who complained about the church leadership, were approached about what they might do to help contribute, almost always we heard the same response--"no thanks." They all had their excuses, but mostly it was either 1) they didn't know how to do something (what they were asked to do), or 2) they didn't have the time to devote to it.

Excuse #1 I already pointed out--no real teaching in the church, which is more common than we'd like. Excuse #2 is perhaps a more common and very sad attitude. Congregations want dedicated vocational pastors and leaders because they are unwilling to be an active member in ministry. They just want to attend Sunday worship, then go back to their regular lives. Church officiating is what they pay someone else to do.

If you were really concerned about steering churches towards more active participants, instead of completely rejecting current churches, it would be much more constructive and edifying to both the churches and the Christians in them by 1) emphasizing more Biblical teaching and discipling and 2) encouraging members to take an active participation in growing their own church rather than sitting on their butts hoping someone else will do it.

mannequinsmile

29th April 2007, 04:30 AM

I have total and utter faith that God is gracious enough to lead us, without the crowd control practices of many churches today. If you describe a church without human leadership as chaos, where does your faith lie? Remember when the Jews wanted a human leader in place of God? Now I understand that throughout the Bible, God elected many leaders, both in the old and new testament. Why?
Paul set up many protocols for the church. Why?

I propose, that such things were done due to a handicap on the part of the individuals, usually due to a lack of faith, or an inability to accept Gods ways. So, God in his graciousness, and Paul, in his wisdom, provides fail-safes.
However, I believe these fail-safes are NOT the ideal way that God would have us live. They are essentially, crowd control. Just as the law wasn’t perfect, God still prescribed it. Why? Mainly, I believe he did because that was the only way the Jews could have a relationship with God at the time, due to their inability.
Us, being carnal, tend to hold on to these fail safes, stubbornly and with great passion.

Iosias

29th April 2007, 05:37 AM

You may like this (http://www.pbministries.org/books/gill/Practical_Divinity/Book_2/book2_03.htm)! :)

eNathan

29th April 2007, 06:53 AM

vbmenu_register("postmenu_34297363", true); vbmenu_register("postmenu_34329921", true);[wash my mouth] I agree wtih walshclan in that the "structure" of the church doesn't matter, but it is what the church amounts to (spiritually) that does. But I do believe that America's current "church-establishment" does need much improvement. Can this be brought about by a change in the church's operational structure (e.g., elders not pastors)? Could be.. vbmenu_reg

By the way, carlos123 , are you planning to make this an actual "website-parse" for people to go to and view? Drop me a PM if your interested in some web development.

Nadiine

29th April 2007, 08:17 AM

I would agree that your essay has a hint of anger as if you were taking this issue on personally. To point out where I pick that up, it's especially evident at the end. "Church leaders would have to be willing to cut their own throats to see it happen." And that whole paragraph actually. That's a very graphic image you have in head about church leaders' attitude.

And in your last paragraph, "I say that it is better to be a church with no recognized leadership at first than to be one with the wrong model of leadership." That statement is unbiblical. With no leadership, there would just be total chaos where everyone is trying to speak at once and wanting things to go their way. Paul in numerous places tries to establish protocol for churches to avoid just such chaos.
In another thread, he claims that the church building also isn't called God's house... also unbiblical.
(My post refuting that serious innaccuracy):
http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=34325945&postcount=201
(and you can read his subsequent replies there) http://www.christianforums.com/t5197778&page=2

Anyone can make webpages - I've made hundreds myself... BUT IF YOU'RE GOING TO PREACH & TEACH ABOUT GOD PUBLICLY, YOU BEST BE GIVING ACCURATE BIBLICAL INFO and not stumbling people along the way!!
James 3:1
Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren,
knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment.

Another example is your solution is to start new churches. It's one thing to promote your point by creating new churches that follow your model of church leadership from the congregation. But you emphasis is not only leadership from the congregation, but a total rejection of any leaders from people with formal seminary education. Regardless of your position on church leader professionals taking sole leadership responsibilities, it would be wrong to completely reject them as possible leaders too.

I wonder if this ideology would work at College campuses & schools? Refuse professors & teachers with a formal education to be taught only by the students instead?
Now there's a concept I hadn't thought of! :idea: :doh:

1 Cor 12:
28 And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues.

As I see it, TEACHERS are specifically called & GIFTED to teach. How does that teach us that our Pastors/Shepherds can't be formally educated in Greek, Hebrew, History/culture & whatever else??

I also see the TEACHERS teaching, not refusing elder authority & taking charge all themselves. God is a God of ORDER, not chaos.
WHERE DOES THE BIBLE TEACH THEY CANNOT HAVE FORMAL EDUCATION??
I love how people SPIN their own ideology onto God's word as if to make new scriptures that don't exist. (this is what the pharisees did by the way; ADDED RESTRICTIONS & RULES TO WHAT DIDN'T EXIST)

Read 1 Tim. 3 for some guidelines of elders: (find me where it prohibits formal education):
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Timothy%203;&version=49;

To close: people have personal issues & private agendas... and I see more judging of the church and church attendee's than I think is healthy today.

Everyone wants to lead, no one wants to SERVE in humility; accepting spiritual authority placed over them.
Intead of church being WORSHIP TO GOD, it's turned into people wanting power, or judging & finding fault with church goers & how a church is run.

IT'S ABOUT GOD, NOT US and not how WE think it should be run & by whom. I thank God that He will make all things right one day. I truly pray for that day - as sobering as it may be.

But the people who think they have it all together & are the epitomy of what a "model Christian" is & know spiritual "truth", are oftentimes the most deluded & confused imo. Those who judge are judging for a reason - more is going on inwardly as I've experienced.

Nadiine

29th April 2007, 08:27 AM

I agree with your opinions. Our church is one whose pastors all agree on one thing: the pastor-centric church is not biblical. As a cell church, we all are taught to aspire leadership as co-pastors with them, as not merely leaders in the church, but primarily leaders in the community, and the world at large. :thumbsup:
The church I just left is Pastor-centric (even tho the board isn't set up to make it so).
What happened is, the Pastor slowly took all authority and the board lost control.
(I say the board lost control becuz they weren't doing their duties in unison). Any board members who would oppose the Pastor found themselves fired from their position.

And to this day, the church is losing members regularly. Even still, he's still teaching sound doctrine. So people are STILL led & fed by him, even tho he's doing some pretty sinful things in his position.
He's basically become the boss of the entire church & all are beneath him. The issue isn't his full authority imo, IT'S THE ABUSE OF IT.

Imo, I have no problem with a Pastor being "boss"... I'm actually FINE w/ that.
But ONLY IF the Pastor/shepherd WAS WALKING CLOSELY W/ THE LORD & not abusing the seat of authority (in sin).

IF that happens, then I think the board of elders has to step in.
That's how I see it.

Nadiine

29th April 2007, 08:43 AM

Carlos:
And you think that by fixing this problem you will improve these churches? What will it do for a church that is already alive and vibrant? The minister will no longer be the head of the church and the congregation were used to his leadership and you put in some other men (who are wise but aren't used to running a church) and you may end up ruining the church.

How does this help the body of Christ? You may end up losing the more fragile of the flock all in the name of making things more like they were back in the NT times. If you want to start a home church with this setup go ahead...that is your right....find some people that agree with you and start a church but don't do it by tearing down the church as it is. How does that help?

But God works in each of our lives differently so I would just ask you to do this in a way that only glorifies God's name and makes his bride the church stronger. I know you can find a way to make the church beautiful in her "Fine linen, bright and clean" (rev 19:8). I will only ask that you ask God's will and you think about how your plan will affect the fragile in the church.
In Him,

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
In the end, that's what I"m seeing, TEARING DOWN THE CHURCH in order to uplift another -
MANY, MANY CHURCHES ARE ALREADY ALIVE AND VIBRANT and working well.

I think we should have a read of Rev. 2, God's report card on the churches: past, present (at that time) and future. MOST had problems that God required them to address.
It was that way then as it will be today - BUT THERE ARE CHURCHES GOD IS PLEASED WITH. Imo, the ones God is pleased with are those that stick to sound doctrine & not tolerating worldliness within it.

I'm glad some people see the real issue: JUDGMENT.

And lastly, since it's only the MINORITY of churches that had no rebukes from Christ, what makes us think that this "new" church format is going to "reform" church and be the RIGHT model that supposedly FIXES THE CHURCH PROBLEM?
It won't becuz it's the minority of churches that have nothing wrong with them (foretold by God already) -

It ends up being an individual issue - what each person needs from their church, how THEY personally like it run, how THEY personally like being taught (and by whom).

StevenL

29th April 2007, 12:20 PM

The modern "church" structure is indeed unscriptural and, in fact, dangerous. But it is just another sign of the general state of apostasy that the "church" has been experiencing and propogating for the last few thousand years.

A gathering that is controlled by "The Pastor" will always be lead into error. Without fail.

carlos123

29th April 2007, 01:25 PM

Nadine,

Thanks for taking the time to give me more of your input. Unfortunately you seem to range far and wide into saying or implying all kinds of things that I have said or meant or am that I did not say or mean or am. It seems that when I address one of your points it's compounded in your responses with another ten that need addressing.

Dare I say that you yourself are doing the very thing you seem to think I do ... namely judging me in a condemning way?

You said...

In another thread, he claims that the church building also isn't called God's house... also unbiblical.
(My post refuting that serious innaccuracy):
http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=34325945&postcount=201
(and you can read his subsequent replies there) http://www.christianforums.com/t5197778&page=2
Nadine why do you address me in the third person as though others are in need of warning as to my supposed unbiblicalness? Your thread does not refute my so-called serious innacuracy. It makes it evident rather that you think the terms and outlook of "God's House" in the Old Testament applies to the New. As one poster said when Jesus died the veil in the Temple was torn in two indicating that the Old Covenent and it's practices was replaced by the New.

... BUT IF YOU'RE GOING TO PREACH & TEACH ABOUT GOD PUBLICLY, YOU BEST BE GIVING ACCURATE BIBLICAL INFO and not stumbling people along the way!!
Who am I stumbling? And why do you judge me as being a cause of stumbling when you have not even made a solid case that I am giving out biblically innacurate info?

I wonder if this ideology would work at College campuses & schools? Refuse professors & teachers with a formal education to be taught only by the students instead?
You misunderstand what I have been saying Nadine. Colleges need professors and teachers. They couldn't operate otherwise. I never even implied that we should get rid of such in secular colleges. The church is different. You seem to completely ignore the teaching role of the Holy Spirit of God. In every Christian.

Regardless I have never said that there should not be gifted teachers in the church. Don't know what you are trying to say here other than implyng how ridiculous you think my position is by sharing the example of Colleges without professors.

Now there's a concept I hadn't thought of!
Instead of correcting me in love you ridicule me and use sarcasm to make your point. Is that loving or Christlike?

As I see it, TEACHERS are specifically called & GIFTED to teach. How does that teach us that our Pastors/Shepherds can't be formally educated in Greek, Hebrew, History/culture & whatever else??
Again you say that I am saying something I never did. Yes, I said that one does not need a formal, Bible school education to be a leader in the church. That is Biblical. I never said that they can't be formally educated though. To deny someone being recognized as a Pastor/Elder just because they are formerly educated would be unbiblical.

I also see the TEACHERS teaching, not refusing elder authority & taking charge all themselves. God is a God of ORDER, not chaos.
Where did I ever say that teachers should refuse elder authority and take charge?? I never said any such thing or even implied it.

WHERE DOES THE BIBLE TEACH THEY CANNOT HAVE FORMAL EDUCATION??
It doesn't teach such a thing. Never said it did. Only that one does not need a formal education as in going to Biblie school to be an elder/pastor.

I love how people SPIN their own ideology onto God's word as if to make new scriptures that don't exist.
You accuse me of being judgmental yet you yourself sit there and judge me of spinning my own ideology so as to make scriptures that don't exist without any solid Scriptural basis for saying that about me.

To close: people have personal issues & private agendas... and I see more judging of the church and church attendee's than I think is healthy today.
I have some personal issues, yes. I need loving correction and help to discern those. Private agendas? Nope. I have made plain what my desire is. Nothing private or hidden there.

Tell me something Nadine. You have not answered my questions regarding what Jesus and Paul said in judgment of others around them. Was Jesus judgmental for calling the Pharisees hypocrites. Was Paul for saying that the statement that Cretianas are liars, evil beasts, and gluttons was true? Was he judgmental of Cretians?

If they were not judgmental and I am deemed by you as being so because of what I say about the North American church why the difference?

Everyone wants to lead, no one wants to SERVE in humility; accepting spiritual authority placed over them.
I would prefer not to lead. Leading as God intends is probably the hardest job in the world. Underpaid and overworked. Serving in humility is the way to intimacy with God. I sure want more of that in my life. As for accepting spiritual authority I am all for it. Authority and learning to respond to any and all authority in a right way is vital to spiritual health. But that does not mean that I am to keep quiet when the spiritual authorities as we have them in the North American church in general are not even set up in line with the biblical model of church leadership.

Intead of church being WORSHIP TO GOD, it's turned into people wanting power, or judging & finding fault with church goers & how a church is run.
Who wants power Nadine? Do I? What are we supposed to do regarding faults in the church? Say nothing? Do nothing? Let things continue as they are?

IT'S ABOUT GOD, NOT US and not how WE think it should be run & by whom.
Couldn't agree with you more. Let's get back to the biblical model of church leadership.

But the people who think they have it all together & are the epitomy of what a "model Christian" is & know spiritual "truth", are oftentimes the most deluded & confused imo. Those who judge are judging for a reason - more is going on inwardly as I've experienced.Hmm...are you saying that I think I am all together? Am I the epitomy of a model Christian? Do you Nadine know any spiritual truth (you sure come accross like you think you do)? Am I deluded and confused?

Do you see what I mean? You imply all kinds of things about me and others who have said things about the subjects of various threads that are simply conjecture and inuendo. You don't correct in a loving way or Christ-like way. You imply. That's not good Nadine.

Carlos

carlos123

29th April 2007, 01:30 PM

Thanks very much for your input JTLauder!! Precisely the kind of input I wanted. Praise God!

I will take what you said and pray over it and make some changes to my page and perhaps to my heart as well in so far as the mouth speaks out of that which fills the heart. Perhaps there is indeed in me some level of fleshly anger that I need to let go of.

Regarding one point you brought up...there were churches in the New Testament that had no recognized leaders. At all. Elders had not yet matured in them to be so. Paul appointed them only after an absence of a year or more on his return journey to those churches. Don't have the references handy but it's there in Acts.

Carlos

Cris413

29th April 2007, 05:55 PM

I guess the thing that really concerns me about this is first...why put so much time and effort into something that is not focused on sharing the Gospel?

My thoughts are that if you spent half as much time sharing the Good News as you are sharing the bad news…well…I personally consider there would a lot of real fruit produced rather than fanning the flames of certain individuals malcontent.

I didn’t take you paper to church this morning. I did, however, have a long talk with our pastor and I was simply amazed he broached the subject before I had a chance to mention it. It’s funny how God works sometimes.

I thought it was also interesting that he did not want to do this. He was quite happy where he was. God kept tugging on his heart…and here he is. He is the first one to tell you that it’s all about God not about him or the leadership. The Holy Spirit is the leader of the church.

Got me to thinking…God calls us for His purpose and good will. This seems to be the strategy through out the Bible. Many great men of God were simply going about their business…God calls them…they’re reluctant and God keeps calling them until they yield. Moses, Noah, Jonah… Wow Paul…look at how amazingly the Lord worked in him. I think becoming an apostle was pretty much the last thing on Paul’s mind on the road to Damascus.

This is much different than: I see this problem I want to fix now let me find approval. Sometimes God will let you do what you want regardless of whether or not it’s right. I guess that would be the free will thingy. And sometimes…God simply says NO!

The important thing to me is to rest “peacefully” in Him. Be quiet and let Him speak to you and tell you what He wants you to do.

You can’t have any anger in your heart what so ever. Again, I would strongly encourage you to search your heart and be open to what God has to say about your paper and your intent.

Couple other points I would like to share:

When I read through Revelation and what Jesus has to say to the churches...I don't see where He judges the church leadership structure but rather the heart and fruit of the church.

Also, your comment regarding the renting of the curtain…I believe this signifies the barrier between sinful man and Holy God removed. That because of the perfect sin sacrifice of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ on the cross…we now have access to God the Father through Him.

Praise His Holy Name!

carlos123

29th April 2007, 06:49 PM

Hi Cris,

I guess the thing that really concerns me about this is first...why put so much time and effort into something that is not focused on sharing the Gospel?

For the same reason that your pastor does not focus solely and always on sharing the Gospel. I am sure he has spent far and away more time on things other than the Gospel than I ever have on the issue of Elders vs Pastors.

My thoughts are that if you spent half as much time sharing the Good News as you are sharing the bad news…
I don't see what I am sharing as bad news Cris. I see it as neccessary news. Neccessary to understanding in part why the church of today is nothing like the New Testament church. Neccessary to giving one's a chance under the guidance of the Holy Spirit to do something about it. Elders vs Pastors is not the end all of everything by the way. It just happens to be the first page I wrote for my web site.

This (the way men of God in times past did not want to go and do something but were called by God anyway - my paraphase) is much different than: I see this problem I want to fix now let me find approval.
Just so you know Cris I don't want to fix anything in the church at large. I mean it would be great if things could be fixed. Don't get me wrong. But I don't personally want to be involved in trying to change things. I've tried and it simply doesn't work. People are used to doing things a certain way and resist change. Big time. Even if God's Word says clearly that things should be done differently.

As for approval...well...I know without a doubt that I will not get much if any for saying the things I say. I am not seeking approval from man Cris. If I was I certainly would not set myself up as a target by focusing on how we can be more like the New Testament church. Which will undoubtedly draw attention to the way things are as being...shall we say less than the best...if our current church practice is not what God intends.

Interestingly enough most of what I hear on this forum in response to what I am saying is things along the lines of...I am content with the way things are...I like the way things are...nobody is perfect so it's okay...God uses everyone...etc.., etc.. Not in those words exactly but essentially that the church as it is, is about the best that we can expect and that we should be content with it.

I don't hear anybody saying...you know...I don't agree with you off the bat Carlos but maybe you might have something there. Let me pray and think about it some. Or ... let's seek the Lord on this Carlos...I think you are wrong in some things but I am open to looking at His Word in a fresh way with you.

I don't know Cris. It just seems like people...and I don't mean you specifically...are not very open and teachable to whatever the Lord might want to show us. Instead I see a lot of stubborness and resistance to anything that might require us to change from what we are comfortable doing.

The issue is not how much or how little God is using current churches. What we are comfortable doing. The way we would like it to be. Or any other such consideration.

The issue is what does God's Word say. It says what it says for a reason. It's up to us to discover what those reasons may be and to follow after God in childlike trust and obedience.

I don't want to be another sheep following after the status quo and never thinking or wondering if God might want it to be different (I am speaking in general Cris - again not saying that about you specifically).

I read the New Testament and I see something very, very different there in terms of church. I can't count the number of times I have gotten before the Lord and cried my heart out before Him asking Him why it is that there is such a difference and why it is that I cannot seem to find what they had there. I want to touch Jesus in His Body and instead I end up bumping into hypocrites, deceived so-called Christians, stubborness, persons who want to control me, unloving persons, and you name it.

Christians in North America are just shock full of excuses as to why what is in the Word and more specifically in the New Testament can't be today. I'm sick of it.

I ask myself where Jesus is and quite frankly I don't see Him very often among the Christians. And there are reasons for that I think. We have let go of what is written in the Word and have gone off into all kinds of directions that God never intended for His Body.

I believe God wants to use me along with others to bring about a resurgence of New Testament Christianity. I could be wrong. But I can't help but wonder if the burden of my heart to see New Testament Christianity come alive again and for me to be a part of that - even if just a lowly sheep among giants of faith, is my calling.

Yes, I get it wrong often in terms of how I say things but I think my heart is in the right place if I am not mistaken.

I simply can't sit in a regular church anymore knowing what I know. Reading what I have read in the New Testament. I want Jesus and to touch Him and be touched by Him in ways that regular church attendance just doesn't provide for.

I just can't be a spectator in church anymore Cris. Going Sunday after Sunday and sitting there watching or at most participating by standing up and sitting down. Standing up and sitting down. Listening and hearing. Sometimes even singing. It's good. But no one takes the time after church to really get to know me and to let me get to know them.

Church on the whole has become this activity we Christians do for a few hours every week. It has ceased to be the vibrant, loving, all consuming relationship of love with God and one another that typified church in the New Testament.

I want that intense, all consuming church I see in New Testament times. I am not content to have it be this activity that I go to once a week.

You can’t have any anger in your heart what so ever.
May I encourage you to rethink that? Jesus had lots of anger in his heart when He made a whip of chords and drove the money changes out of the Temple. Anger, righteous anger, is not wrong or sinful. I am not sure that all anger in me is entirely righteous so I am still praying and thinking about that but I don't believe that one must be entirely free of any kind of anger to be used by God.

Again, I would strongly encourage you to search your heart and be open to what God has to say about your paper and your intent.
I am Cris and with God's help will continue to be.

Carlos

StevenL

29th April 2007, 07:36 PM

Cris413

29th April 2007, 08:03 PM

I guess I may be at a disadvantage. My church experiences have for the most part been wonderful.

I didn't feel led to stay at the churches where the Lord spoke to my heart in such a way which told me this is not the Way or the right church for us. Sometimes that took as little as 15 minutes...sometimes a few days or a few months.

I suggested no anger in your heart while seeking the will of God. God knows when anger is appropriate or not.

You feel your anger is justified...who am I to try and tell you differently. My suggestion is merely to seek God with a peaceful heart and be still and listen to Him.

I do beg to differ Carlos, it's always about the Gospel Message. Our lives are to be evident of that each and every day.

One small favor I would like to ask...should we have conversation in this forum again please do not paraphrase my words as quote even if you note you are paraphrasing.

I personally take great effort not to deviate from the actual post when I quote someone.

I never paraphrase their words to appear as a direct quote and if I <snip> out part of their comments I make that clear as well and encourage other readers to take the full post in context always leaving the little arrow thingy...I may not be 100% faithful in this...but I would never ever rephrase someone's words.

Please, Carlos, show me the same courtesy should you choose to quote me again.

It's kinda interesting the parallel though...you didn't care for the way I worded something...so you took it upon yourself to change it...as well as disregard other, and what I consider more pertinent considerations.

My apologies if you felt I was speaking to you with some hostile intent...my intent was to encourage you to seek God with a peaceful heart and to incorporate the Gospel message into your thoughts on this.

I genuinely feel that is what it should be all about...God's Kingdom business. I think a good rule of thumb should be in all that we do...does this glorify God?

I know I miss the mark on this more often than I should...but praise God

OK...here's a wow moment...I was looking for the Scripture regarding He who began a good work in you..(as I personally don't like to paraphrase Scripture either)...and this is what I found instead:

Philippians 1:15-18

v15 Some indeed preach Christ even from envy and strife, and some also from goodwill:

v16 The former preach Christ from selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing to add afflection to my chains;

v17 but the latter out of love, knowing that I am appointed for the defense of the gospel.

v18 What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is preached and in this I rejoice, yes, and will rejoice.

Now, I personally feel this was a Word to me...but you can gleen from it what you like...

What I originally was looking for was:

Philippians 1:6 being confident of this very thing, that he who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ.

I'm not sure why I can never remember where this verse is...because it is certainly on my heart when the Holy Spirit convicts me of something....

May God guide and direct each and every one of us by the power of His Holy Spirit in the Name of Christ Jesus.

Nadiine

29th April 2007, 08:09 PM

Carlos. I have read your letter carefully.

It's very good. I have done the same study and reached some of the same conclusions. I don't detect any language that would indicate excessive "anger" or indignation. Even if it were there, I wouldn't fault you for it. We should be indignant concerning false leadership and positions among the called-out people of God. The letter is full of sound Scriptural truth. I will look forward to future writings. I hope you will make them available here.

One point I would like to add to your thoughts that I found very interesting: A favorite phrase used by preachers and teachers, "...it's better to GIVE than to receive...." was actually spoken to the ELDERS (pastors) at Ephesus. Paul's departing word to the elders. (Acts 20) He told the elders that it was better for THEM TO GIVE TO THE FLOCK than for the flock to be giving to them. For some reason I've never heard this taught to the "laity" in its proper context.

Anyway, keep up the good work. I know you've already experienced the anger and indignation of those who have been so thoroughly indoctrinated into the present false structure. Don't let it stop you from doing what you know the Lord wants you to do. You will get MUCH MORE of it before you're done. But you have a much better attitude toward your work than many, including myself. I pray God's strength and power for you as you finish your course. Don't give up or faint.....even if you don't visibly experience immediate fruit from your labors. Your labor in the Lord WILL NOT BE FORGOTTEN by the One Whose opinion and favor really counts.

You have blessed this sheep with your work and you will likely not even know me until after the resurrection. Remember He's taking one from a city..two from a place...and leading us all to Zion.

God bless you brother.
I'm amazed you can say this when this same person claimed this:
There is no such thing as a "House of the Lord". I find it utterly ridiculous when people start acting differently because they are in a building the church meets in on Sundays and then act totally different still when they are outside in everyday life. I think Jesus would call those who conduct themselves as such hypocrites.
My reply: Psalm 5:7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=23&chapter=5&verse=7&version=49&context=verse)
But as for me, by Your abundant lovingkindness I will enter Your house, At Your holy temple I will bow in reverence for You.

2 Kings 12:4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=12&chapter=12&verse=4&version=49&context=verse)
[ The Temple to Be Repaired ] Then Jehoash said to the priests, "All the money of the sacred things which is brought into the house of the LORD...

1 Chronicles 22:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=13&chapter=22&verse=1&version=49&context=verse)
[ David Prepares for Temple Building ] Then David said, " This is the house of the LORD God, and this is the altar of burnt offering for Israel."

1 Chronicles 29:3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=13&chapter=29&verse=3&version=49&context=verse)
"Moreover, in my delight in the house of my God, the treasure I have of gold and silver, I give to the house of my God, over and above all that I have already provided for the holy temple

Mt. 21:
12 And Jesus entered the temple and drove out all those who were buying and selling in the temple, and overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who were selling doves.
13 And He said to them, "It is written, 'MY HOUSE SHALL BE CALLED A HOUSE OF PRAYER'; but you are making it a ROBBERS' DEN."

Mt 12:3-4
3 But He said to them, "Have you not read what David did when he became hungry, he and his companions,
4 how he entered the house of God, and they ate the consecrated bread, which was not lawful for him to eat nor for those with him, but for the priests alone?

Then to claim that now that Christ is resurrected there's no "house" of God - yet the NT beleivers GATHERED CORPORATELY together in a system that Paul outlined for proper leadership.

I don't put much stock into a teacher that would make such a claim and it has nothing to do with me being "indoctrinated" as if I'm some nonthinking idiot just following the masses of ignorant clueless believers.

He also said this:
Please don't take this the wrong way Nadine but you seem to be very much into thinking that unless one attends a Sunday church that they are not attending church at all.

We are the church and we are called to corporately gather together - which becomes "church" where we are. This is why this same tradition has been handed down and Christian theologians & scholars alike ATTEND worship services at designated places.

Acts 14:23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=51&chapter=14&verse=23&version=49&context=verse)
When they had appointed elders for them in every church, having prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord in whom they had believed.

Acts 14:27 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=51&chapter=14&verse=27&version=49&context=verse)
When they had arrived and gathered the church together, they began to report all things that God had done with them and how He had opened a door of faith to the Gentiles.

Acts 15:4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=51&chapter=15&verse=4&version=49&context=verse)
When they arrived at Jerusalem, they were received by the church and the apostles and the elders, and they reported all that God had done with them.

Acts 15:41 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=51&chapter=15&verse=41&version=49&context=verse)
And he was traveling through Syria and Cilicia, strengthening the churches.

I don't have time to continue, but to close,
I'm not an indoctrinated follower blinding letting the ignorant traditionalists lead me around. I take issue w/ his previous posts & that is why I have taken opposition - at the very least have alerts about what's being taught.
I don't just believe everything people tell me; God's word will bear it out fully.

Nadiine

29th April 2007, 08:28 PM

excerpt from your page:

We need to get back to this simple but effective Biblical model of church leadership.

It will not happen through the established churches. Church leaders would have to be willing to cut their own throats to see it happen. For to do so would involve them opening the door wide to other men becoming leaders and learning to work with other leaders in humility. Many church leaders of today seem more interested in protecting their turf, in maintaining control, and will not readily submit to the Biblical model.

The only way that I see the Biblical model becoming a reality again is for Christians in general to start new churches based on that model. Learning from the Lord how to implement it to His honor and glory. It will not happen otherwise.

This is where I feel your page falls apart.

You are completely removing the work of GOD in this equasion. IF you were right, the entire church would have already folded & fallen apart.

It's not ONLY the Pastor/teachers that are responsible for people, WE TOO must study God's word as the Bereans did to make sure what we're being taught is correct.
We cannot squarely place blame of Christian failure solely on the shoulders of the church just becuz it has a Pastor & elders both.
If ANYONE can teach, then they should be able to (as you suggest).

Further, they didn't need formal education, since they lived in the same times the NT church was started while the Apostles were still helping raise the NT churches.
TODAY, in different cultures 2000 yrs later, and from 2 separate (intricate) languages & the barriers those produce - hindering us from proper understanding, there's no reason why we shouldn't have EDUCATED teachers.
The bible doesn't FORBID it. Does it?

As an example, I'd like to use Apollos from Acts who was preaching incorrectly about baptism. Priscilla took him aside and properly taught him.
So he learned from a source closer to knowing the truth on baptism.

Education isn't a MUST / MANDATORY for a Pastor, but I personally prefer one to better relay details for me.

You're ignoring GOD'S WORK in this equasion of wanting to abolish the entire church structure - many churches ARE thriving today.
As if God cannot work with what's in place now? I flatly disagree.

Cris413

29th April 2007, 08:47 PM

excerpt from your page:

This is where I feel your page falls apart.

You are completely removing the work of GOD in this equasion. IF you were right, the entire church would have already folded & fallen apart.

It's not ONLY the Pastor/teachers that are responsible for people, WE TOO must study God's word as the Bereans did to make sure what we're being taught is correct.
We cannot squarely place blame of Christian failure solely on the shoulders of the church just becuz it has a Pastor & elders both.
If ANYONE can teach, then they should be able to (as you suggest).

Further, they didn't need formal education, since they lived in the same times the NT church was started while the Apostles were still helping raise the NT churches.
TODAY, in different cultures 2000 yrs later, and from 2 separate (intricate) languages & the barriers those produce - hindering us from proper understanding, there's no reason why we shouldn't have EDUCATED teachers.
The bible doesn't FORBID it. Does it?

As an example, I'd like to use Apollos from Acts who was preaching incorrectly about baptism. Priscilla took him aside and properly taught him.
So he learned from a source closer to knowing the truth on baptism.

Education isn't a MUST / MANDATORY for a Pastor, but I personally prefer one to better relay details for me.

You're ignoring GOD'S WORK in this equasion of wanting to abolish the entire church structure - many churches ARE thriving today.
As if God cannot work with what's in place now? I flatly disagree.

:thumbsup: :amen:

Particularly the last statement!

God bles you sister!

carlos123

29th April 2007, 11:00 PM

Cris,

I guess I may be at a disadvantage. My church experiences have for the most part been wonderful.

I wouldn't call that a disadvantage Cris :).

You feel your anger is justified...
Why do I get misunderstood so often...sigh...I never said any unrighteous anger in me is justified. I think no such thing. If I am righteously angry that is a different thing. I think we all should have some level of righteous anger as to what church has become (in general) in North America.

I do beg to differ Carlos, it's always about the Gospel Message. Our lives are to be evident of that each and every day.
You don't seem to have gotten the point of what I said Cris...yes the gospel message is key and central to all Christianity but I was responding to your point that I should spend more time on the gospel message than on my paper. I said that not even your pastor spends all his time on the gospel message. A point you seemed to have missed entirely.

One small favor I would like to ask...should we have conversation in this forum again please do not paraphrase my words as quote even if you note you are paraphrasing.
Will do Cris. Sorry about that. I just found it easier in my previous post to paraphrase but I can see the wisdom of including anybody's words in a direct quote.

It's kinda interesting the parallel though...you didn't care for the way I worded something...so you took it upon yourself to change it...as well as disregard other, and what I consider more pertinent considerations.
Don't assume Cris. I did not paraphrase because I did not care for how you worded something. Nothing of the sort even crossed my mind. I paraphrased because it was easier for me to do so than to carefully put quote/end quotes around just the right words you wrote.

Incidentally those were good verses you shared. Thanks!

The one about Paul rejoicing even if the gospel was preached from false motives spoke to my heart. That I should rejoice no matter what the form of church government is used in any given church, if the gospel message is getting out. While still speaking about how things should be...of course :).

Carlos

mannequinsmile

30th April 2007, 01:38 AM

Did anyone read my post on page two? I’m just curious as to what certain people think....;)

Cris413

30th April 2007, 07:24 AM

Cris,

I wouldn't call that a disadvantage Cris :). I wouldn't call it a disadvantage either...my point being that not everyone can relate to what you're saying. Because there are good Spirit led churches out there. We just need to find them.

Why do I get misunderstood so often...sigh...I never said any unrighteous anger in me is justified. I think no such thing. If I am righteously angry that is a different thing. I think we all should have some level of righteous anger as to what church has become (in general) in North America.Again, a partial quote. I believe my complete thought was "You feel your anger is justified...who am I to try and tell you differently. My suggestion is merely to seek God with a peaceful heart and be still and listen to Him" - Again, a lot gets lost in the meaning when we cut and snip portions of complete thoughts. Perhaps the misunderstanding rests with you. Because my complete thought reads as "who am I to judge your anger" with a suggestion to seek God with a peaceful heart.

A lot of people cut and snip portions of quote...mainly to make their responses make more sense or seem more justified without taking into consideration the complete thought or context of the post.

You don't seem to have gotten the point of what I said Cris...yes the gospel message is key and central to all Christianity but I was responding to your point that I should spend more time on the gospel message than on my paper. I said that not even your pastor spends all his time on the gospel message. A point you seemed to have missed entirely. Again, you chose not to quote the most important part of the statement and failed to quote it intirely which was: "I do beg to differ Carlos, it's always about the Gospel Message. Our lives are to be evident of that each and every day."

Will do Cris. Sorry about that. I just found it easier in my previous post to paraphrase but I can see the wisdom of including anybody's words in a direct quote. There are a lot of things in life that are easy short cuts...doesn't make it right. Seems a lot of people take the same thing into consideration when it come to Scripture...easier to paraphrase what I think it says then to actually look it up. Or...this is the only portion that agrees with what I'm thinking so why should I read before or after to get the full context of the message. It's easier to stay home and bash the church on my web page than to find a good church where I'll grow in the Spirit and glorify and serve God in His house.

Don't assume Cris. I did not paraphrase because I did not care for how you worded something. Nothing of the sort even crossed my mind. I paraphrased because it was easier for me to do so than to carefully put quote/end quotes around just the right words you wrote. Again, easier isn't always right, appropriate, accurate or beneficial.

Incidentally those were good verses you shared. Thanks!

The one about Paul rejoicing even if the gospel was preached from false motives spoke to my heart. That I should rejoice no matter what the form of church government is used in any given church, if the gospel message is getting out. While still speaking about how things should be...of course :).

Carlos

I'm glad the Scripture spoke to your heart. It spoke to my heart in a few ways...First that God can use even those with selfish ambition to His purpose. Also...that the important thing was getting the Gospel out there. Also, who am I to judge someones motives...as long as the gospel is going forward.

God knows the condition of each or our hearts and what our motivation is. He will deal with each according to His Holy and Righteous Judgement...I believe particularly those in leadership as they are held to a higher accountability.

God still sits on His throne. He is in control.

We are to be about His business as He calls us. Not about our own business for our own purpose.

Nadiine

30th April 2007, 08:48 AM

I wouldn't call it a disadvantage either...my point being that not everyone can relate to what you're saying. Because there are good Spirit led churches out there. We just need to find them.
My husband and I must be some wierd fringe...:scratch: We've had to move many times in the past, and EVERY TIME we've looked for a new church, we found one very quickly if not immediately...
GREAT churches that I hated to leave.

We had to leave our past church due to the Pastor's "shenanigans" (to put it mildly), and POOF, the very next church we went to is phenomenal... I only wish we had changed a year earlier!
I don't want to bore everyone w/ the details about what makes it so awesome :holy:.

There are a lot of things in life that are easy short cuts...doesn't make it right. Seems a lot of people take the same thing into consideration when it come to Scripture...easier to paraphrase what I think it says then to actually look it up.
To Carlos: if you need to quote somebody, highlight their content, rite click & COPY it. Then in your post, click the "quotation" symbol up top, it places those quote symbols there automatically - all you do is position your cursor in btwn the quote tags, rite click & PASTE.
OR, paste the person's content, then highlite all of it, while it's highlighted, go up & click that Quote symbol up top & it puts the tags (brackets) around the text for you.
At least that's how I do it. I do some cut & pasting of quote brackets if responding in segments tho.

God knows the condition of each or our hearts and what our motivation is. He will deal with each according to His Holy and Righteous Judgement...I believe particularly those in leadership as they are held to a higher accountability.
:thumbsup: Absolutely. This is why I worry about people who just REBEL against something clearly taught in the bible. The motive is, "I DON'T WANT TO" or 'I DON'T HAVE TO". :swoon: :o
The issue in all this for me is, people know what Hebrews says & that the NT examples it directly, YET IGNORE THAT & willfully do something else.

I've never said we have to go 24/7/365... but it's another issue entirely to rebel against corporate assembly as if it's disdainable or legalistic when God ordained it specifically for us to do. :sigh:

Cris413

30th April 2007, 10:02 AM

Thanks Nadiine for a fine example of posting to partial portions of someone's post.

Totally in context.

:thumbsup:

carlos123

30th April 2007, 03:52 PM

Did anyone read my post on page two? I’m just curious as to what certain people think....;)

Yes I had read them mannequinsmile. Sorry I did not respond earlier. Especially to thank you for the post where you said to me "well done"! Much appreciated.

Carlos

carlos123

30th April 2007, 04:14 PM

Incidentally for anyone that is interested I spent some time before the Lord asking Him how He would have me word things and whether there was indeed unrighteous anger expressed in the paper that I had written. I was more than willing for Him to show me that there was.

I ended up with no conviction that there was unrighteous anger in what I said. Sorry if that conflicts with what some of you think.

I did however see where I had overly generalized statements regarding pastors such that all pastors everywhere ended up appearing in a bad light through what I said. That wasn't right and God honoring and came accross as pastor bashing. I do apologize for that.

So...

I rewrote large portions of what I said. I did not change the essence of my paper. We MUST get back to the early church model of government, among other things, if we are to see the church of today be all that God meant for it to be. Sorry if some of you disagree with that or think church as it is today is just great. Your particular church may be wonderful for you but I am speaking of the church at large. Of what church has become overall. What I say may apply more or it may apply less to different individual congregations. Or it may not apply at all if any given church is following the biblical model of leadership spoken of in the New Testament. Most are not following the New Testament model.

Below is a link to my revised page. Some of you may think it changed little. Sorry if you feel that way but I stand behind what I have said in this revised version and feel the Lord would have me say it.

Here is the revised page...

http://christian-at.awardspace.com/elders-vs-pastors.html

I also found a very interesting site that has a book I plan to purchase called "Pagan Christianity". It appears to be very good and eye opening. If anyone is interested here is a link to a sample chapter...it's very good!

http://ptmin.org/pagan_sample.htm

I do not know Frank Viola nor have I read any of his books but this one looks like a real winner!

I should make clear that I am not including a link to his book because I am making money or anything of the sort from sales of his books. It just seems to be a good book I found in line with some of what I have been saying.

Carlos