A Debate on the Doctrine of "Once Saved, Always Saved."

[aggie03]

I am very pleased to be able to begin this formal debate with Raizerin in which we will discuss the doctrine of “Perseverance of the Saints”, or commonly known as “Once Saved Always Saved”. It is indeed my hope and prayer that all who are interested might find this exchange beneficial as we seek to know more perfectly the will of God through His inspired word, the Bible. I would also ask of all who read through this debate, that they study the Scriptures and look over the verses that are presented. The point of entering into this discussion is not to prove oneself to be correct and your opponent to be wrong, but rather to learn what God is teaching through the His word. If it can be shown Biblically that my position and beliefs are in error, then I will gladly conform to be in agreement with the Bible. I only ask that others be willing to do the same.

I therefore stand ready to affirm, with the word of God as my foundation, the statement “Once an individual has become a saint, it is possible for them to forfeit their eternal salvation.” I will begin with a few definitions, an outline and a brief introductory argument.

Saint - One separated from the world and consecrated to God, an individual Christian.

Forfeit - To lose, or lose the right to by some error or offense of commission or omission.

Salvation – the point at which your sins are removed.

Eternal Salvation – dealing with the final destination of the soul, a saint remaining faithful until death will dwell everlastingly and eternally in heaven with God. This salvation, once obtained is incapable of being lost. Salvation, or being “saved”, and eternal salvation are not synonymous.

In Christ – a term that is used to describe those who have become saints and not violated the conditions established for eternal salvation (fallen from grace)

Security – the quality or state of being secure. Does not imply a permanent quality or state, but only that one can or does exist.

Sinner – one who habitually and continually practices sin. One who continually walks in darkness

Topic I

Major Premise: Security Exists for those who are Christians
Minor Premise: That Security does not exists without conditions
Conclusion: It is possible for a Christian to forfeit their eternal salvation upon violation of said conditions

Topic II

“IF”

Topic III

Various things that can happen to faith

Topic IV

Hebrews, Galatians and Peter

Topic V

The Vine, the branches and the Vinedresser

Topic IV

Covenant Relationship

After having presented this outline for the topics that are to be discussed, I will begin presenting material for the logical argument presented under “Topic I”.

Major Premise: Security exists for those who are Christians.

I believe that there are conditions that are placed upon our salvation, and that theses conditions, once met, afford the individual security in knowing that they have the remission of sins, or are “saved”.

In Romans 10:17 we are told that our faith comes from hearing the word of Christ. In John 1:12 we are told that those who receive Christ, or believe in Him, are given the right to become sons of God. Luke 13:3,5 tells us that we must repent in order to keep from perishing. Romans 10:9,10 and Acts 8:37 show us that confessing Christ as Lord is part of our salvation. Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, 1 Peter 3:21, Acts 22:16 tells that we are to be baptized for the remission of our sins, and that in doing so we are saved.

The Scriptures collectively teach us that if we first hear, upon that hearing believe, if that belief leads us to first repent and then confess and finally be baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit for the remission of our sins, then we will be saved.

After an individual has done all these things, what greater source of security can there be? God has provided us with the conditions for our salvation, if we but meet them, then through His grace we are forgiven our sins. We are washed, we are cleansed, we are sanctified, we are justified in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Having thus provided a basis for the major premise, I will continue on with the minor:

Minor Premise: The security that exists is not without conditions.

1 John 1:6-10 ASV

If we say that we have fellowship with him and walk in the darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: (7) but if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanseth us from all sin. (8) If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. (9) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (10) If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

It is very clear that there are things that are expected of us once we become children of God, one of which is that we walk in the light. These verses show us if we walk in the light, if we do the things that have been commanded of us, then the blood of Jesus cleanses us from our sins. The necessary implication is, therefore, that if we do not walk in the light, if we do not do the things which are commanded of us, then the blood of Jesus will not cleanse us of our sins.

Luke 13:3 ASV

I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all in like manner perish.

Luke 13:5 ASV

I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

These verses make it very clear that there is something that we have to do in order to keep from perishing. It is not impossible for a saint to sin or enter into a process of habitual sin. However, when we couple these verses from Luke 13 with the previously quoted material from 1 John 1, we learn that God has provided a “life preserver” for us. If we sin while we are yet His children, if we will but confess our sins and repent of them, then He is just, and faithful and righteous to forgive us of those sins. However, if we do not confess those sins, say that we have not sinned, or we do not repent, God will not forgive us of those sins that we have committed and we shall also likewise perish.

Having thus provided evidence for the fact that our security is not without conditions I will proceed to the conclusion drawn from the major and minor premises.

Conclusion: It is possible for a Christian to forfeit their eternal salvation upon violation of said conditions.

Believing is a condition placed upon our salvation. The fact that any condition exists on our salvation makes that salvation conditional. In the same way, the fact that any conditions on the security of our eternal salvation exist also make our eternal salvation conditional.

We are told, in the instance provided, that the absence of repentance will result in our perishing because we have omitted a condition that has been put in place by God. These principles, plainly taught in the Scriptures, are directly contrary to those professed by the doctrine of “once saved, always saved”. Therefore I stand resolved upon the word of God that “once an individual has become a saint, it is possible for them to forfeit their eternal salvation.”

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[Schae7]

Salvation-deliverance from the power and penalty of sin; spiritual deliverance from sin and death
Deliverance- The act of delivering or state of being delivered; liberation or rescue
Eternal-without beginning or end; lasting forever, perpetual, ceaseless, not subject to change, immutable
Save-to deliver from sin
Saved-deliverance from sin has already occurred
Destroy-to injure beyond repair; demolish, to put an end to, to make ineffective or useless
Cancel- to make void; to call off
The premise that security exists for those who are Christian is not in dispute. Nor is the premise that the security exists with conditions. The conclusion that has been drawn from these premises is in dispute. I believe that while the first and second premise have both been proven the conclusion has not been.
"The Scriptures collectively teach us that if we first hear, upon that hearing believe, if that belief leads us to first repent and then confess and finally be baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit for the remission of our sins, then we will be saved."
"God has provided us with the conditions for our salvation, if we but meet them, then through His grace we are forgiven our sins. We are washed, we are cleansed, we are sanctified, we are justified in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ."
In the event of being baptized by the Holy Spirit, confessing our sins and repenting , you are saved. This is past tense. The action has already occurred. A person is saved because they have received and been baptized by the Holy Spirit. John 14:15-17 "If you love me, you will obey what I command. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever—the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and willbe in you." This verse says that some people will not accept the Holy Spirit. These people will not be saved. For those who do accept the Spirit, those saved; it will be with them forever. 2 Corinthians 1:22 "And He has identified us as his own by placing the Holy Spirit in our hearts as the first installment of everything he will give us." This clearly says that those who are saved, God has claimed his own. Romans 8:9-11 "You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you." Once a person fulfills the "conditions" set forth they are saved. They are filled with the Holy Spirit, which lives within them forever. The Holy Spirit from then on controls them. That being the case they would have to continue to fulfill the conditions set forth. They have no choice but to. Colossians 1:15-19; 2:13-14 "You were dead because of your sins and because your sinful nature was not yet cut away. Then God made you alive with Christ. He forgave allour sins. He canceledthe record that contained the charges against us. He took it and destroyed it by nailing it to Christ’s cross." Once Christ is accepted your sins are cut away. All of them, past and future. The record holding your sins is destroyed. Verses in the bible also support the fact that once God has done something it is final. This means that once you are saved it is final. The light will always overcome the darkness once the light is accepted. Jeremiah 29:11 "For I know the plans I have for you," declares the Lord, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future." John 1:5 "The light shines through the darkness, and the darkness can never extinguish it." John 1:12-13 "Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God." God’s time is not our time and God can see all, past present and future. He knows when a person truly accepts His gift. This is supported by Psalm 139. There is a time for everything (Ecclesiastes 3:1-8) and it only stands to reason that there is an exact time that a person accepts Christ and is saved. I will close by saying that I believe many people think they have received salvation but only God knows. When a person truly receives eternal salvation it is irreversible. Everything God does is final. Ecclesiastes 3:14 "I know that everything God does will endure forever; nothing can be added to it and nothing taken from it. God does it so that men will revere him."

[aggie03]

Salvation-deliverance from the power and penalty of sin; spiritual deliverance from sin and death
Deliverance- The act of delivering or state of being delivered; liberation or rescue
Eternal-without beginning or end; lasting forever, perpetual, ceaseless, not subject to change, immutable
Save-to deliver from sin
Saved-deliverance from sin has already occurred
Destroy-to injure beyond repair; demolish, to put an end to, to make ineffective or useless
Cancel- to make void; to call off

Some of the definitions you propose have already been established for this debate. If you wish to pose a contrary definition, you must first refute the established ;).

The premise that security exists for those who are Christian is not in dispute. Nor is the premise that the security exists with conditions. The conclusion that has been drawn from these premises is in dispute. I believe that while the first and second premise have both been proven the conclusion has not been.

I would ask that you carefully consider the statement that you have just made. The argumentation I’ve presented was in the form of a syllogism, a logical argument based upon two premises, a major and a minor, through which a logical conclusion is drawn.

The major premise needs no explanation, simply read it – security exists for those who are Christians.

The minor premise is that the security which exists is not without conditions. A condition is a premise upon which the fulfillment of an agreement depends – a covenant. Both of these mean that there is an unknown situation upon which an agreement hinges. Let’s consider the following:

I give you a check for $100.00. The check itself is an agreement that $100 of my money will be transferred to you. With this agreement there are certain conditions. First, you must take the check. If you never take the check, then you will never fulfill the agreement. Secondly, you must be the person to whom the check is written; if you are not part of the agreement then you have no claim to the money. Thirdly, you must take the check to a financial institution of some kind and cash it. If you never do this, then the agreement is never fulfilled.

The fulfillment of the agreement hinges on these conditions. If any of these three conditions are violated, then the agreement is never fulfilled and the $100 is forfeited.

In the very same manner exists our security. There are conditions placed upon it, that if they are not met, then the agreement, the covenant, of an eternity in heaven if forfeited.

You have agreed with the major and minor premise I have presented, but denied the conclusion, which is a logical and necessary understanding derived from the two premises. The conclusion which you have arrived at, being in agreement with the major and minor premises makes no sense. I do not mean this to be derogatory, but it appears that you have arrived at that conclusion because of a personal bias, not because of a thought out, logical process. Would you please elaborate on your thinking here so I can better understand where you’re coming from?

"God has provided us with the conditions for our salvation, if we but meet them, then through His grace we are forgiven our sins. We are washed, we are cleansed, we are sanctified, we are justified in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ."

In this quote you have provided the perfect example of a condition. IF you do something THEN the agreement will be fulfilled. IF we meet the conditions for salvation, THEN we can receive the promise of the forgiveness of sins. I wish that you would apply this logic to the major and minor premises mentioned earlier.

In the event of being baptized by the Holy Spirit, confessing our sins and repenting , you are saved. This is past tense. The action has already occurred. A person is saved because they have received and been baptized by the Holy Spirit.

I don’t think that Holy Spirit baptism has anything to do with it, but rather water baptism for the remission of our sins (Acts 8:36-39, the eunuch rejoiced after he was baptized in water) – but as this is not the purpose of our debate, I will leave it at that.

I must stress that you remember the definition of salvation we are using: the point at which your sins are forgiven – this is different than our eternal salvation. The two are not synonymous!

I would also like to pose a couple questions for you now: Do you have eternal life right now? Are you never going to die? The answer to both of these questions is no – you do not have eternal life right now, but rather the promise of eternal life. This is a promise, a covenant, between God and those who are His children. Remember, there are conditions on which this covenant stands – you have already agreed to this in the beginning of your first post!

John 14:15-17 "If you love me, you will obey what I command. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever—the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and willbe in you." This verse says that some people will not accept the Holy Spirit. These people will not be saved. For those who do accept the Spirit, those saved; it will be with them forever.

I would ask that first of all you go back and look at the context of this passage. Who is Jesus talking to (you’ll have to go back into chapter 13 to find out)? Are you one of the Apostles?


2 Corinthians 1:22 "And He has identified us as his own by placing the Holy Spirit in our hearts as the first installment of everything he will give us." This clearly says that those who are saved, God has claimed his own. Romans 8:9-11 "You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you." Once a person fulfills the "conditions" set forth they are saved. They are filled with the Holy Spirit, which lives within them forever. The Holy Spirit from then on controls them. That being the case they would have to continue to fulfill the conditions set forth. They have no choice but to.

I do not believe in a literal indwelling of the Holy Spirit, it seems, as you believe, but rather I believe that the Holy Spirit can dwell within us through the word. Every time something is mentioned in the Scriptures that the Holy Spirit can do, the word does the same thing. We are told to let the word dwell richly within us (Colossians 3:16). This is not the focus of our debate, so this is where I will stop. If you so desire, I might cite examples if called to. And, again, as you are not one of the Apostles, the quote you have made from John 14 does not apply to you.

You have quoted Colossians 1:15-19; 2:13-14; they read as follows:

Colossians 1:15-18 ASV

who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; (16) for in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him; (17) and he is before all things, and in him all things consist. (18) And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

This seems to have no relevance to our discussion, though one of my favorites :).

Colossians 2:11-14 ASV

in whom ye were also circumcised with a circumcision not made with hands, in the putting off of the body of the flesh, in the circumcision of Christ; (12) having been buried with him in baptism, wherein ye were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead. (13) And you, being dead through your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, you, I say, did he make alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses; (14) having blotted out the bond written in ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us: and he hath taken it out that way, nailing it to the cross;

The verse that you have quoted in no way supports once saved always saved. I have additionally quoted v.11-12 in order that the proper context might be understood. This is dealing with the remission of our sins apart from the Old Covenant. We are taught here that this occurs at the point of baptism, and that circumcision is not necessary any longer. The written record, the bond of ordinances against us, is not a record of our sins, but the Old Covenant. God does remember our sins (1 Cor 6:11), He just no longer holds them against His children.

I will close by saying that I believe many people think they have received salvation but only God knows. When a person truly receives eternal salvation it is irreversible.

When a person truly receives eternal salvation, they will be in heaven with God. At that point it is forever. Until one has died, while they yet walk in this life, they are capable of falling from grace because they only have the promise of eternal life, which, as you have agreed, is based upon conditions.



Everything God does is final.

I believe that you have misapplied the Scripture you used to try and make this point, but in doing so you have provided an excellent springboard into the next topic ;). I would like to ask you a couple of questions, and then I’ll begin. Was the Old Covenant final? Was the Sabbath final? Was the adherence to Law of Moses final? Was the tabernacle made with hands final?

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[aggie03]

TOPIC II: “IF”

Perhaps one of the most overlooked words in the Scriptures is the word “IF”. I would venture to say that there is more power in this single word than many people either want or know.

The word “if” acting in the capacity as a conjunction is properly defined as meaning “in the event that” or “on condition that”. It is my prayer that as we go through various Scriptures that contain the word “if” it will become more apparent that our eternal salvation is conditional and capable of being forfeited.

Matthew 5:13 ASV

Ye are the salt of the earth: butif the salt have lost its savor, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing,but to be cast out and trodden under foot of men.

If it loses its flavor, is it still good? No, it is cast out.

Romans 8:13 ASV

for if ye live after the flesh, ye must die;but if by the Spirit ye put to death the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

IF we live after the flesh, THEN we shall surely die.

Romans 11:20-22 ASV

Well; by their unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by thy faith. Be not highminded, but fear: (21) for if God spared not the natural branches, neither will he spare thee. (22) Behold then the goodness and severity of God: toward them that fell, severity; but toward thee, God's goodness,if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

This is very straightforward – IF we continue in His goodness we have his goodness, otherwise we have the severity of God and THEN we are cut off.

Galatians 5:2 ASV

Behold, I Paul say unto you, that,if ye receive circumcision, Christ will profit you nothing.

Paul is writing to Christians. He tells them that IF they receive circumcision THEN Christ will profit them nothing – they will forfeit the promise of eternal life.

Galatians 6:8-9 ASV

For he that soweth unto his own flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth unto the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap eternal life. (9) And let us not be weary in well-doing:for in due season we shall reap,if we faint not.

If we stop doing what God has said, then we will have lost the promise of our eternal salvation.

Colossians 1:21-23 ASV

And you, being in time past alienated and enemies in your mind in your evil works, (22) yet now hath he reconciled in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and without blemish and unreproveable before him: (23) ifso be that ye continue in the faith, grounded and stedfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel which ye heard, which was preached in all creation under heaven; whereof I Paul was made a minister.

We are without blemish and able to presented as holy before God IF we continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, not moved away from the hope of the gospel. IF any of these are not met, THEN we are not presented as holy and blameless before God.

1 Timothy 5:8 ASV

But if any provideth not for his own,and specially his own household,he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an unbeliever.

IF we do not provide for our own, THEN we have denied the faith and are worse than an unbeliever. Will an unbeliever be saved? No. Those who do not take care of their will be worse than an unbeliever!

Hebrews 3:14 ASV

for we are become partakers of Christ,if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence firm unto the end:

IF we do not hold fast the beginning of our confidence, firm unto the end, THEN we have no part in Christ. Keep in mind, this letter is addressed to Christians!

James 1:26 ASV

If any man thinketh himself to be religious, while he bridleth not his tongue but deceiveth his heart,this man's religion is vain.

IF we cannot control our tongue, THEN our religion is vain – it is to no effect! How will an ineffective religion save us? It can’t! Keep in mind, James is writing to Christians.

1 John 2:3 ASV

And hereby we know that we know him,if we keep his commandments.

We know God IF we keep His commandments. This means that IF we do not keep them, THEN we do not know God.

Therefore I stand on the word of God, resolved that it is possible for us to lose the promise of our eternal salvation.

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[Schae7]

You have agreed with the major and minor premise I have presented, but denied the conclusion, which is a logical and necessary understanding derived from the two premises. The conclusion, which you have arrived at, being in agreement with the major and minor premises makes no sense. I do not mean this to be derogatory, but it appears that you have arrived at that conclusion because of a personal bias, not because of a thought out, logical process. Would you please elaborate on your thinking here so I can better understand where you’re coming from?
More than one logical conclusion can be drawn from the major and minor premise. I believe my conclusion to be thought out and logical. I do agree that security exists for those who are Christians. I also agree that there are conditions that need to be met to obtain that security. I think it is a far reach to say the major and minor premise mean that you can forfeit eternal salvation. Once the conditions are met eternal salvation is yours.

The fulfillment of the agreement hinges on these conditions. If any of these three conditions are violated, then the agreement is never fulfilled and the $100 is forfeited.
Fulfillment of the agreement hinges on those conditions. By the same token when you become Christian you fulfil the conditions of salvation.

Let’s say that you were to watch a person cross the street and see someone else keep that person from being hit. You might assume he was saved. But if you were able to see the whole picture, you would see that the person walked away safely from the first car only to be hit by another. It would be safe to say that in the whole picture of life, that person was never saved. He was always going to be hit by a car. God is able to see our whole lives this way. He knows at which point we are actually saved. He knows when we won’t turn from him and when we will repent from our sins. God sees the whole picture.



In this quote you have provided the perfect example of a condition. IF you do something THEN the agreement will be fulfilled. IF we meet the conditions for salvation, THEN we can receive the promise of the forgiveness of sins. I wish that you would apply this logic to the major and minor premises mentioned earlier

This is a very valid point. IF you become Christian THEN you become saved. Again saved is past tense. It has been done.



I would also like to pose a couple questions for you now: Do you have eternal life right now? Are you never going to die? The answer to both of these questions is no – you do not have eternal life right now, but rather the promise of eternal life. This is a promise, a covenant, between God and those who are His children. Remember, there are conditions on which this covenant stands – you have already agreed to this in the beginning of your first post!

You are correct. I have God’s promise of eternal life. I believe that if God promises something it is as good as done. I have agreed that there are conditions. These conditions will be met if you are truly saved. They won’t be met if you are not saved.



I would ask that first of all you go back and look at the context of this passage. Who is Jesus talking to (you’ll have to go back into chapter 13 to find out)? Are you one of the Apostles?

I don’t believe it matters that Jesus was talking to the Apostles. Jesus meant his life to be our example and the things he said were not meant for just the Apostles.



I do not believe in a literal indwelling of the Holy Spirit, it seems, as you believe, but rather I believe that the Holy Spirit can dwell within us through the word. Every time something is mentioned in the Scriptures that the Holy Spirit can do, the word does the same thing. We are told to let the word dwell richly within us (Colossians 3:16). This is not the focus of our debate, so this is where I will stop. If you so desire, I might cite examples if called to. And, again, as you are not one of the Apostles, the quote you have made from John 14 does not apply to you.

If the Holy Spirit and the word serve the same purpose, then it doesn’t matter which term I use. My use of the term Holy Spirit still applies.

Colossians 1:15-18 – Umm…I’m not sure where I was going with that.http://www.christianforums.com/images/smilies/scratch.gif Sorry.http://www.christianforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

The verse that you have quoted in no way supports once saved always saved. I have additionally quoted v.11-12 in order that the proper context might be understood. This is dealing with the remission of our sins apart from the Old Covenant. We are taught here that this occurs at the point of baptism, and that circumcision is not necessary any longer. The written record, the bond of ordinances against us, is not a record of our sins, but the Old Covenant. God does remember our sins (1 Cor 6:11), He just no longer holds them against His children.
The main point is that God no longer holds his sin against His children. Those that are saved.



Until one has died, while they yet walk in this life, they are capable of falling from grace because they only have the promise of eternal life, which, as you have agreed, is based upon conditions.

They only have the promise from God? As I said, a promise is as good as done if it’s from God. A Christian, believer, follower of Christ will repent. In doing so they will fulfil the conditions.

Everything God does is final.

I should restate that. Everything that God means to be is final is final. God means a person's salvation to be final. Once God saves a person they are saved. May I ask why you believe Ecclesiastes 3:14 was misused?


Galatians 5:2 ASV

Behold, I Paul say unto you, that,if ye receive circumcision, Christ will profit you nothing.

Paul is writing to Christians. He tells them that IF they receive circumcision THEN Christ will profit them nothing – they will forfeit the promise of eternal life.


Paul is writing to churches founded in Galatia. Acts 13:48 says all who were appointed for eternal life, believed. In other words, those God chose believed. This doesn’t mean that all the churches were full of Christians. Those who were Christian would do as told and therefor meet the conditions. If we stop doing what God has said without repenting, we were never saved. I won’t go through each example placed forth but I will say that IF we don’t follow the Lord’s teachings THEN we were never saved. http://www.christianforums.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

(I have no idea why the last paragraph is underlined. I'm far from a computer personhttp://www.christianforums.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif)

[aggie03]

I believe that a reposting of two definitions that have not been refuted will cover many of the things that Schae7 has presented thus far in the debate.



Salvation – the point at which your sins are removed.

Eternal Salvation – dealing with the final destination of the soul, a saint remaining faithful until death will dwell everlastingly and eternally in heaven with God. This salvation, once obtained is incapable of being lost. Salvation, or being “saved”, and eternal salvation are not synonymous.



Becoming a Christian, being saved from your sins, does not place you immediately in heaven with God, thus you have not obtained your eternal salvation. You have the promise of eternal life with God – IF – you do all of the things He says are necessary (see my last post concerning the word IF).



More than one logical conclusion can be drawn from the major and minor premise.



I do not believe so. Consider the definitions as they have been outlined. Do you have eternal life right now? Are you going to die someday? Are you in heaven with God right now?



Fulfillment of the agreement hinges on those conditions. By the same token when you become Christian you fulfil the conditions of salvation.



But you have not fulfilled the requirement of Revelation 2:10, which says that we cannot receive the crown of life unless we life faithfully till death. Your eternal salvation may still be forfeited.



Let’s say that you were to watch…God sees the whole picture.



Do you believe in predestination then? Do you believe that you have absolutely no choice in the matter? Can you not choose to become a Christian? Are you merely a puppet? God can see the whole picture, the past, future and present –but this does not preclude us from having free will and the ability to choose what we do. God judges us based on our choices as compared to the word He has given us (John 12:48).



Again saved is past tense. It has been done.



And IF after you have become a Christian you turn your back on God THEN you no longer have the promise of eternal life.



I have God’s promise of eternal life.



That is correct – but you have admitted that there are conditions on this promise. This means that there unknown, meaning as of yet unmet, situations upon which this promise hinges. This means that IF you violate one of the conditions, THEN you lose that promise. Remember Revelation 2:10…faithful until death.



I believe that if God promises something it is as good as done.



God’s promises have often come with conditions which must either be met or maintained. When these are not met or maintained then the promise is lost. I am not questioning the willingness of God to keep His promises. A promise is not what is, but something that is to come, or in the process of coming. You do not have eternal life right now, but you will IF you do the things God has said – living faithfully till death being a major part of that.



1 Samuel 12:13-25 ASV



Now therefore behold the king whom ye have chosen, and whom ye have asked for: and, behold, Jehovah hath set a king over you. (14) If ye will fear Jehovah, and serve him, and hearken unto his voice, and not rebel against the commandment of Jehovah, and both ye and also the king that reigneth over you be followers of Jehovah your God, well: (15) but if ye will not hearken unto the voice of Jehovah, but rebel against the commandment of Jehovah, then will the hand of Jehovah be against you, as it was against your fathers. (16) Now therefore stand still and see this great thing, which Jehovah will do before your eyes. (17) Is it not wheat harvest to-day? I will call unto Jehovah, that he may send thunder and rain; and ye shall know and see that your wickedness is great, which ye have done in the sight of Jehovah, in asking you a king. (18) So Samuel called unto Jehovah; and Jehovah sent thunder and rain that day: and all the people greatly feared Jehovah and Samuel. (19) And all the people said unto Samuel, Pray for thy servants unto Jehovah thy God, that we die not; for we have added unto all our sins this evil, to ask us a king. (20) And Samuel said unto the people, Fear not; ye have indeed done all this evil; yet turn not aside from following Jehovah, but serve Jehovah with all your heart: (21) and turn ye not aside; for then would ye go after vain things which cannot profit nor deliver, for they are vain. (22) For Jehovah will not forsake his people for his great name's sake, because it hath pleased Jehovah to make you a people unto himself. (23) Moreover as for me, far be it from me that I should sin against Jehovah in ceasing to pray for you: but I will instruct you in the good and the right way. (24) Only fear Jehovah, and serve him in truth with all your heart; for consider what great things he hath done for you. (25) But if ye shall still do wickedly, ye shall be consumed, both ye and your king.



In this passage the Israelites have asked for a king. God gives them a promise with conditions – if they hearken unto the voice of Jehovah then they, and their king, will prosper. If they, or their king, hearken not unto the voice of Jehovah, then they will be consumed. Have you ever heard of the Babylonian captivity? The Assyrian Captivity? They hearkened not unto the voice of Jehovah and they were consumed. They violated the conditions of God’s promise, and they lost it.



I don’t believe it matters that Jesus was talking to the Apostles. Jesus meant his life to be our example and the things he said were not meant for just the Apostles.



It does matter who Christ was talking to. Let’s look at another passage where it does matter.



Mark 16:17-20 ASV



And these signs shall accompany them that believe:in my name shall they cast out demons; they shall speak with new tongues; (18) they shall take up serpents, and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall in no wise hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. (19) So then the Lord Jesus, after he had spoken unto them, was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God.(20) And they went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word by the signs that followed. Amen.



I believe that this passage is talking about a very specific group of people. Can you be bitten by a deadly serpent and not die? Can I? No. Can you drink Drain-O without dissolving your gustatory system? Neither can I. Can you lay your hands on a sick person and heal them? Neither can I. Verse 20 tells us what these signs were for – they were to confirm the word of God.



Ephesians 3:4-5 ASV



whereby, when ye read, ye can perceive my understanding in the mystery of Christ; (5) which in other generations was not made known unto the sons of men,as it hath now been revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit;



The mystery of Christ is the things that were hidden but are now revealed – this is the word of God, which the miracles were intended to prove. So who was Mark 16:17-20 written about to? The holy Apostles and prophets in the Spirit. They had these signs and wonders so that others might know they spoke from God. It’s very important that we understand this before we try and drink Drain-o, because it’s something that you and I could not do without dying. It is important to whom the things are written.



Everything God does is final.



Is the Sabbath final? What about all the sacrifices from the Old Covenant? Do you give a grain offering (Lev. 2), fine flour with oil and frankincense? What about a drink offering? A sin offering? Do you still circumcise your children on the 8th day? Do you stone disobedient children? No – these things have been done away with.

{rest of post continued below}

[aggie03]

{see first half of post above}

I will continue now with the next argument to be presented:



THINGS THAT CAN HAPPEN TO FAITH



SHIPWRECK



1 Timothy 1:18-20 ASV



This charge I commit unto thee, my child Timothy, according to the prophecies which led the way to thee,that by them thou mayest war the good warfare; (19) holding faith and a good conscience;which some having thrust from them made shipwreck concerning the faith: (20) of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I delivered unto Satan, that they might be taught not to blaspheme.



Paul is telling Timothy to war the good warfare by holding onto faith and a good conscience. Then he says that there are those who have not done so, and thereby have shipwrecked their faith. Hymenaeus and Alexander are examples of people to whom this has happened.



Can a shipwreck happen if the boat is never launched into the water? No. A shipwreck of faith cannot occur unless one is a Christian already.



DEPARTED



1 Timothy 4:1-3 ASV



But the Spirit saith expressly,that in later times someshall fall away from the faith,giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons, (2) through the hypocrisy of men that speak lies, branded in their own conscience as with a hot iron; (3) forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by them that believe and know the truth.



The Spirit, that is the Holy Spirit who is God, has expressly said that some would fall away. This means that they were saved, then they are going to fall away and not be saved. This is GOD saying this! The people who have begun to “give heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of deamons”, are they saved? No! Were they saved? Well of course, or else they had nothing to fall away from! They have departed from the faith!



DENIED



1 Timothy 5:8 ASV



But if any provideth not for his own, and specially his own household,he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an unbeliever.



Is the person here who Paul is talking about a believer? Well, they have to be because Paul contrasts them with those who don’t believe. This verse explicitly states that it is possible for one who is a Christian to deny the faith, and the end result is that they are worse than an unbeliever. Are unbelievers saved? No. Neither is anyone who once had the faith yet now denies it.



ASTRAY



1 Timothy 6:10 ASV



For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil:which some reaching after have been led astray from the faith,and have pierced themselves through with many sorrows.



He would have to be speaking of Christians here as one has been led astray FROM the faith. If a person cannot be led astray from the faith, why mention it? Can we be led astray from the faith and still be saved?



1 John 2:3 ASV



And hereby we know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.



If we are led astray then we are not keeping the commandments. If we don’t keep the commandments then we don’t know God. Can we not know God and still be saved? No.



OVERTHROWN



2 Timothy 2:16-18 ASV



But shun profane babblings: for they will proceed further in ungodliness, (17) and their word will eat as doth a gangrene: or whom is Hymenaeus an Philetus; (18) men who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already, and overthrow the faith of some.



There are those who have erred from the faith, and through their false teaching it is possible that the faith of another might be overthrown. Does an overthrown king still rule? Is an overthrown law still bound on the people? Does an overthrown faith save? No.



The verses cited speak of five things which can happen to our faith. If any one of them happens to a person's faith, that person would certainly be lost – unless…



James 5:19-20 ASV



My brethren, if any among you err from the truth,and one convert him; (20) let him know, that he who converteth a sinner from the error of his wayshall save a soul from death, and shall cover a multitude of sins.



If the soul being converted from the error of its way is saved from death, then those errors meant that it was no longer saved!!! You have to remember now, James is talking to Christians!



If any of the 5 things I have listed happens to one’s faith they are in danger of death unless they repent and turn again to God.



It is for these reasons, and more yet forthcoming that I stand upon the word of God resolved that it is possible for one to lose the promise of their eternal salvation.

{Original material 6,870 Character}

[Disciple 3]

Here is something I wrote on another forum on this issue. (http://thechristianbbs.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=001993)

[buck]

Your saved once By repenting and asking for God forgiveness.
You may Wandering away and live in sin and go to hell if you don't repent and ask for forgiveness, but your still saved because you ask to be the first time.
Being does not get you to heaven, repenting and doing God will does.

[stelow]

So if one was saved then their faith was shipwrecked is their salvation lost forever? Can faith be rebuilt or is there a point of no return?

[aggie03]

Your saved once By repenting and asking for God forgiveness.
You may Wandering away and live in sin and go to hell if you don't repent and ask for forgiveness, but your still saved because you ask to be the first time.
Being does not get you to heaven, repenting and doing God will does.
I'm not quite certain that I understand the point that you are trying to make. You seem to be stating that a "saved" person can be in hell. What exactly, then, are they "saved" from?

[aggie03]

So if one was saved then their faith was shipwrecked is their salvation lost forever? Can faith be rebuilt or is there a point of no return?
The prodigal son came back, did he not? Certainly one may turn from their sins and return again to God :) Is there a point where someone will not come back? According to the writer of Hebrews 6 there seems to be. :(

[Chazper]

The prodigal son came back, did he not? Certainly one may turn from their sins and return again to God :) Is there a point where someone will not come back? According to the writer of Hebrews 6 there seems to be. :(

I think this thread is NOT about returning to God but rather loosing salvation. Can someone who is saved loose his salvation?

Yes I believe so...even just 1 Timothy 1:18-20 will do

What are the warnings in Hebrews 6 for if we can't loose our salvation?

Kudos to Aggie!!! :thumbsup: