Can we talk about women preaching/teaching?

[cremi]

I know this topic has been talked about to a degree, but I would really like to study it more in depth.

I used to be of the "women must be silent" camp, but the more I've really read about the goings on in the NT church, I've seen that women often had stronger roles than I had first realized. Even going back to the OT, in passages such as 2 Kings 22, where God uses Huldah, a married woman as his prophet to speak to some of Josiah's men.

1 Corinthians 14:34
34 The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says.
35 If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church.

This is the key passage often used to silence women in the churches, but in looking at the whole--chapters 12, 13 and 14, the main message does not seem to be about women, but about how everyone needs to conduct themselves in a way that will not lead to confusion during worship.
These are some of my questions:
What is preaching?
Is preaching forbidden for women?
In all circumstances?
What if authority has been given her to preach?
What is teaching?
How does preaching differ from teaching?
Are women forbidden from teaching men?

Please don't feel you need to answer all questions. I've just been in one "camp" for so long, that it's a bit scary to be feeling like I may have been wrong.

Thanks in advance.

[Frame1520]

I know this topic has been talked about to a degree, but I would really like to study it more in depth.

I used to be of the "women must be silent" camp, but the more I've really read about the goings on in the NT church, I've seen that women often had stronger roles than I had first realized. Even going back to the OT, in passages such as 2 Kings 22, where God uses Huldah, a married woman as his prophet to speak to some of Josiah's men.

1 Corinthians 14:34
34 The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says.
35 If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church.

This is the key passage often used to silence women in the churches, but in looking at the whole--chapters 12, 13 and 14, the main message does not seem to be about women, but about how everyone needs to conduct themselves in a way that will not lead to confusion during worship.
Thses are some of my questions:
What is preaching?
Is preaching forbidden for women?
In all circumstances?
What if authority has been given her to preach?
What is teaching?
How does preaching differ from teaching?
Are women forbidden from teaching men?

Please don't feel you need to answer all questions. I've just been in one "camp" for so long, that it's a bit scary to be feeling like I may have been wrong.

Thanks in advance.

Yowsa! I'm going to have to work on my response to have scriptural backing for everything! I'm sure (as you and I both know) you will get a variety of answers on this! Although, I think we have agreed on this in the past. I'll be happy to answer once I get my thoughts together...its been a hectic day so far.

[WesWoodell]

I think that its very important to understand what was going on in Corinth at the time of Paul's writing.

That would be a good place to start, I believe.

[JazzyChaz]

the main message does not seem to be about women, but about how everyone needs to conduct themselves in a way that will not lead to confusion during worship.



I would agree...because there were many women prophets, and many women helped lead the early churches...I think Paul was talking about "chatterboxes" who couldn't keep silent while the message was being taught...

[WesWoodell]

Jazzy, where do you get the idea that "many women helped lead the early churches" ?

Just curious.

[JazzyChaz]

Jazzy, where do you get the idea that "many women helped lead the early churches" ?



Cf Judges 4:4-6 Deborah was a judge: "Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lappidoth, was leading Israel at that time. She held court under the Palm of Deborah between Ramah and Bethel in the hill country of Ephraim, and the Israelites came to her to have their disputes decided.

Cf Phillipians 4:3 Euodia and Syntyche: "these women who have contended at my side in the cause of the gospel.

Cf Luke 2: 36, 38 There was also a prophetess, Anna, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was very old; she had lived with her husband seven years after her marriage. ...She never left the temple but worshiped night and day, fasting and praying

Cf Acts 21:8 Philip the evangelist, one of the Seven...had four unmarried daughters who prophesied.

and there are more...they may not have preached sermons, but they prophesied, and at times, lead Israel as judges.

The woman at the well became an evangelist to the Samaritans after Jesus "shared the Gospel" with her.

[ParsonJefferson]

Here's my "short" answer (I've got a meeting soon)...

I don't think "Women Pastors" is a good idea - on two fronts:

1. The role of Pastor is best compared to a Preaching Elder. Elders are to be Godly men. There are all manner of Scriptural indications to back this up.

2. Women Pastors "tend to" not be very effective. Please don't take this as an attack - it's not. Most women pastors that I've known are extremely liberal theologically - and their ministry seems to be more centered around "Hey, I can be a pastor just as well as any man can be!" rather than a calling from God.


I know this sounds needlessly harsh, but it's not intended to be. Please excuse my hurried response. I can elaborate more later - and I'm sure I'll NEED to further explain! ;) Please don't send out a posse in the meantime!

[cremi]

Here's my "short" answer (I've got a meeting soon)...

I don't think "Women Pastors" is a good idea - on two fronts:

1. The role of Pastor is best compared to a Preaching Elder. Elders are to be Godly men. There are all manner of Scriptural indications to back this up.

2. Women Pastors "tend to" not be very effective. Please don't take this as an attack - it's not. Most women pastors that I've known are extremely liberal theologically - and their ministry seems to be more centered around "Hey, I can be a pastor just as well as any man can be!" rather than a calling from God.


I know this sounds needlessly harsh, but it's not intended to be. Please excuse my hurried response. I can elaborate more later - and I'm sure I'll NEED to further explain! ;) Please don't send out a posse in the meantime!Oh don't worry--no rotten tomatoes will be thrown by me.;)

In my experience, which is really very little, I have tended to see that men do not seem to respond to women preachers/teachers as well as they do men. My husband is one of those. I too agree that women should not have the role of Elder.

Now before anyone throws out the obvious verse, let me do it for you.

1 Timothy 2:12
12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.

I don't have an issue with this verse, but I guess part of my question entails, what exactly constitutes teaching and does it only apply in a corporate worship setting?

For example, Priscilla and Aquilla (Romans 16:3, 1 Corinthians 16, 2 Timothy 4) Did not Priscilla teach with Aquilla and even perhaps Paul?

What about a small group setting? Is it okay for a woman to facilitate a group discussion--as opposed to lead one?

Okay..I'll stop for now and let those of you with more to share post your stuff.

[spiritfilledjm]

I think women pastors are great but I have to agree with you on the front of "Men don't respond well to women pastors" I know that Joyce Meyer has a real call on her life to preach and be an evangelist but I doubt you will ever see me listen to one of her CD's or read one of her books. Not that she's bad or anything I just don't really get anything out of her. It's like me and CS Lewis, great author...just didn't get anything out of anything he wrote.

[Loveaboveall]

I have read the verses in Corinthians and Timothy many times. The interpretation that women cannot teach in a bible study or in any other way actually give instruction to a man does not match up with what the rest of the bible teaches.

1 corinthians 11:5 "But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with [her] head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven."

How is a woman supposed to prophesy if she cannot speak to men about spiritual things. Why would God bestow upon her the gift of prophecy if the church could not benefit from it? By the way do we require women to cover their heads when they pray in todays church?

I interpret these scriptures to be speaking specifically about a husband and wife. In 1 cor 14 a woman is not to question a husband when he is prophesying or in any other way "bring down" what he is saying. She is to wait till they get home to ask further questions. In Timothy Paul speaks directly about the family unit with Adam and Eve how can we read into this to suggest that a woman cannot preach to ANY man? She is to be in subjection to her husband, not ALL men.

[cremi]

I have read the verses in Corinthians and Timothy many times. The interpretation that women cannot teach in a bible study or in any other way actually give instruction to a man does not match up with what the rest of the bible teaches.

1 corinthians 11:5 "But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with [her] head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven."

How is a woman supposed to prophesy if she cannot speak to men about spiritual things.I don't think I said she couldn't speak to men about spiritual things--my questions are more specifically about teaching and preaching. I'm well aware that women in the NT church prayed and prophesied, but do you see examples of women preaching? I'm not sure I have. Teaching? Yes...but under what circumstances. Does that make sense as to what I'm trying to get at?
Why would God bestow upon her the gift of prophecy if the church could not benefit from it? By the way do we require women to cover their heads when they pray in todays church?Well, actually, that's a whole different topic that I would also like to talk about--just not on this thread.

I interpret these scriptures to be speaking specifically about a husband and wife. Really? It seems in Timothy that Paul is specifically talking about conduct in worship. I have a hard time seeing the marriage relationship being talked about. In 1 cor 14 a woman is not to question a husband when he is prophesying or in any other way "bring down" what he is saying. She is to wait till they get home to ask further questions.Hmmm...interesting again. I don't see that Paul is addressing marriage at all here. Again, he is talking about orderly worship. He talks about tongues and what is proper and then further down in the chapter, is again talking about orderliness. Someone correct me here if I am wrong or missed something, but I believe there was mcuh chaos going on in the Corinthian church. People (women included) were prophesying at the same time, and people were speaking in tongues at the same time and often times, without an interpreter. That scene did not make for a very pleasant or orderly worship, so Paul gave instructions as to how things should be ordered. As I stated in my OP, I'm not so sure this is about women's conduct, as much as it is about what was going on in the church--overall.

In Timothy Paul speaks directly about the family unit with Adam and Eve how can we read into this to suggest that a woman cannot preach to ANY man? She is to be in subjection to her husband, not ALL men.I don't think I ever said a woman had to be in subjection to all men...my question was what is acceptable as far as women preaching and/or teaching? The verses in Timothy seem pretty clear that women are not to teach men or have authority over them--in a worship setting. He then explains why this is the case by going back to Adam and Eve and reminding Timothy that Adam was created first and that it was Eve who was decieved and became the sinner first.

As a woman, I certainly don't like reading that part either, but I can't deny it simply because I don't like it. Yes, we are to submit to our husbands, but we are also to submit to those in authority over us. I would say that also applies to church leaders.

So far though, no one has given me the idea of the difference between preaching and teaching...or let's just throw prophesying into the mix. Obviously women were given the gift of prophecy and did prophecy in the church. How is prophecy different from preaching?

Come on guys...

[mrconstance]

Here's my "short" answer (I've got a meeting soon)...

I don't think "Women Pastors" is a good idea - on two fronts:

1. The role of Pastor is best compared to a Preaching Elder. Elders are to be Godly men. There are all manner of Scriptural indications to back this up.

2. Women Pastors "tend to" not be very effective. Please don't take this as an attack - it's not. Most women pastors that I've known are extremely liberal theologically - and their ministry seems to be more centered around "Hey, I can be a pastor just as well as any man can be!" rather than a calling from God.


I know this sounds needlessly harsh, but it's not intended to be. Please excuse my hurried response. I can elaborate more later - and I'm sure I'll NEED to further explain! ;) Please don't send out a posse in the meantime!
Parson,

Do the churches you've been in disbar a man from serving as an elder if one of his children is not a believer? Do you check to make sure that his children are obedient to him?

Paul's laws and instructions make a lot more sense if you consider the principles of 1 Corinthians: we are free as Christians to do anything, but we must not create barriers to keep people away from Christ. Many of his laws are put in place to ensure that Christians are able to witness to the people around them. Thus, Christians in bondage to pagans--whether pagan masters, parents, or husbands--are to obey and serve as good examples. Christian elders, as the representatives of the community, must be visibly suited to roles of authority so that they can be seen with respect by all who deal with them (Christians and pagans).

And as for your second point, that women preachers tend to be liberal: what do you expect, when most conservative churches, seminaries, and Bible colleges won't teach women to preach? I met a conservative woman who was repeatedly told to go to seminary. She didn't because, as she put it, "the seminaries I want to go to won't take me." If you're a Biblically based Christian, and you refuse to support the training of women as preachers, and then you complain that women preachers aren't Biblically based, you only have yourself to blame.

Alan

[Iconoclast85]

1tim2;11-14,,,,,,and 1tim3:1-16,,,,explain that clearly there are no woman pastors. Men only are qualified,for Eve was decieved. Pricilla and aquila were not in the church setting. Paul by the Spirit teaches what "must" be in the church in chapter 3,,,,,man elders,deacons

[ParsonJefferson]

Parson,

Do the churches you've been in disbar a man from serving as an elder if one of his children is not a believer? Do you check to make sure that his children are obedient to him?

Paul's laws and instructions make a lot more sense if you consider the principles of 1 Corinthians: we are free as Christians to do anything, but we must not create barriers to keep people away from Christ. Many of his laws are put in place to ensure that Christians are able to witness to the people around them. Thus, Christians in bondage to pagans--whether pagan masters, parents, or husbands--are to obey and serve as good examples. Christian elders, as the representatives of the community, must be visibly suited to roles of authority so that they can be seen with respect by all who deal with them (Christians and pagans).

And as for your second point, that women preachers tend to be liberal: what do you expect, when most conservative churches, seminaries, and Bible colleges won't teach women to preach? I met a conservative woman who was repeatedly told to go to seminary. She didn't because, as she put it, "the seminaries I want to go to won't take me." If you're a Biblically based Christian, and you refuse to support the training of women as preachers, and then you complain that women preachers aren't Biblically based, you only have yourself to blame.

Alan

First of all, I think we'd need to agree on what, exactly, the role of a Pastor is. I firmly believe that the closest thing - Biblically - that you can compare a Pastor to is a "preaching elder".

And I'm not complaining that women preachers aren't "biblically based". What I'm saying is that most (not all) of the women pastors I've known are excessively liberal - to the point of demanding "gender neutral" language Bibles. And most of them seem to have the motive for pastoring of, "Hey, if a man can do this, I can too!"

Big difference.

[mrconstance]

First of all, I think we'd need to agree on what, exactly, the role of a Pastor is. I firmly believe that the closest thing - Biblically - that you can compare a Pastor to is a "preaching elder".

And I'm not complaining that women preachers aren't "biblically based". What I'm saying is that most (not all) of the women pastors I've known are excessively liberal - to the point of demanding "gender neutral" language Bibles. And most of them seem to have the motive for pastoring of, "Hey, if a man can do this, I can too!"

Big difference.
For the record, the pastor of the church where I was trained thought of himself as a preaching elder. My biggest challenge in this church is getting the elders to understand that I'm neither their boss nor their employee, but one of them. I use the title "pastor" because many people I meet feel that it's important to use some kind of title, and "pastor" is much preferable to "Reverend."

But you kind of ignored part two of my post: women preachers tend to be liberal because conservative colleges won't train them. Instead of blaming women for their predicament, you should encourage the schools who provide what you consider to be sound teaching to train women for ministry.

[JDIBe]

But you kind of ignored part two of my post: women preachers tend to be liberal because conservative colleges won't train them. Instead of blaming women for their predicament, you should encourage the schools who provide what you consider to be sound teaching to train women for ministry.

...Or an equally plausable explanation is that conservative Christian women do not believe their God-given role is in the pulpit.



Why would a conservative school (which doesn't believe it is sound teaching for a woman to be a pulpit minister) train conservative women (who don't believe it is sound teaching for them to be a pulpit minister) to be.......a pulpit minister?

[ParsonJefferson]

But you kind of ignored part two of my post: women preachers tend to be liberal because conservative colleges won't train them. Instead of blaming women for their predicament, you should encourage the schools who provide what you consider to be sound teaching to train women for ministry.

Well, I'm sorry but I really don't see it that way.

If a pastor is a "preaching elder" and elders are men, wouldn't it be kind of a paradox for us to endorse training women to be "preaching elders"?

On the other hand, there WERE and ARE women students where I did both under-grad and grad work. They have access to all the same classes, if they so choose to take them.


Now... I'm going to go way out on the non-politically correct limb here and be bluntly honest. The vast majority of women pastors are divorced (sometimes multiple times) and/or lesbians and/or man-haters. This has little to do with theological training. And regardless of theological education, they're going to gravitate toward denominational churches that lean that way.

[Patrick1978]

I think women speakers can be very powerful, but I think their teaching and preaching should be geared for their female counterparts. My wife looks forward to hear from her Christian sisters and takes advantage of any events that may come her way. When she attends these events, she gets motivated and lifted up.

Wes said we should look at the problems at Corinth at the time. I agree with him, but Paul said, "in the Churches." I doubt he was restricting that comment only to the Churches or Church at Corinth.

Priscilla and Aquilla is a matter I will have to look more into. I think its important to see that Aquilla was with her and we don't know how much a role she had in teaching.

If women are allowed to teach and preach, how come Jesus didn't make any female apostles. Something to think about also.

Women are an available asset to any congregation. Phoebe is an example of this.

Patrick

[Patrick1978]

I don't think I said she couldn't speak to men about spiritual things--my questions are more specifically about teaching and preaching. I'm well aware that women in the NT church prayed and prophesied, but do you see examples of women preaching? I'm not sure I have. Teaching? Yes...but under what circumstances. Does that make sense as to what I'm trying to get at?
Well, actually, that's a whole different topic that I would also like to talk about--just not on this thread.

Really? It seems in Timothy that Paul is specifically talking about conduct in worship. I have a hard time seeing the marriage relationship being talked about. Hmmm...interesting again. I don't see that Paul is addressing marriage at all here. Again, he is talking about orderly worship. He talks about tongues and what is proper and then further down in the chapter, is again talking about orderliness. Someone correct me here if I am wrong or missed something, but I believe there was mcuh chaos going on in the Corinthian church. People (women included) were prophesying at the same time, and people were speaking in tongues at the same time and often times, without an interpreter. That scene did not make for a very pleasant or orderly worship, so Paul gave instructions as to how things should be ordered. As I stated in my OP, I'm not so sure this is about women's conduct, as much as it is about what was going on in the church--overall.
I don't think I ever said a woman had to be in subjection to all men...my question was what is acceptable as far as women preaching and/or teaching? The verses in Timothy seem pretty clear that women are not to teach men or have authority over them--in a worship setting. He then explains why this is the case by going back to Adam and Eve and reminding Timothy that Adam was created first and that it was Eve who was decieved and became the sinner first.

As a woman, I certainly don't like reading that part either, but I can't deny it simply because I don't like it. Yes, we are to submit to our husbands, but we are also to submit to those in authority over us. I would say that also applies to church leaders.

So far though, no one has given me the idea of the difference between preaching and teaching...or let's just throw prophesying into the mix. Obviously women were given the gift of prophecy and did prophecy in the church. How is prophecy different from preaching?

Come on guys...
Does prophesy take place today? I think that is a question we have to ask, but on another thread of course..

Yes, I think there is a difference between prophecing and teaching. When one prophecied, he or she was speaking for God. When one teaches, he or she is speaking from their perceived knowledge of his or her topic.

Patrick

[ParsonJefferson]

I think women speakers can be very powerful, but I think their teaching and preaching should be geared for their female counterparts. My wife looks forward to hear from her Christian sisters and takes advantage of any events that may come her way. When she attends these events, she gets motivated and lifted up.

Wes said we should look at the problems at Corinth at the time. I agree with him, but Paul said, "in the Churches." I doubt he was restricting that comment only to the Churches or Church at Corinth.

Priscilla and Aquilla is a matter I will have to look more into. I think its important to see that Aquilla was with her and we don't know how much a role she had in teaching.

If women are allowed to teach and preach, how come Jesus didn't make any female apostles. Something to think about also.

Women are an available asset to any congregation. Phoebe is an example of this.

Patrick

I think the Beth Moore Conferences are a good example of this. GREAT for women, partly because they are specifically geared toward women - which is wonderful! But you won't find a man there, unless his wife has FORCED him to go, or he's on payroll.

[SEA89]

on this topic i would say i disagree because god choose man to do the peaching but that doesn't mean woman can't spead gods word in a different way. for example woman can teach bible classes ,or even teach a study group. may god be with you , SEA89 :D

[carlos123]

Hi cremi,

I really appreciate your heart in wanting to know what God thinks. That's wonderful to behold!

I won't be participating in this thread much if at all since it seems more of a discuss your opinions thread than a look into the text as written thread. May I however, make a suggestion cremi?

If you want to know what God thinks about this, pick a verse, any verse dealing with women's conduct in a church setting and then pray and ask God to open your mind to understand what is written. In the plain meaning of what is said.

Stick to seeking the Lord for an understanding of what was said to those it was written to without consideration of whether what is said is applicable to today or not.

Once you arrive at an understanding of what was said to those that it was said to, pick another verse and do the same with it.

Keep doing that until you have done that with several verses so as to build a general conviction about what was said and why it was said to those in New Testament times. Then pray and ask the Lord to give you understanding as to whether what you have learned should be applied today. If so, stick to your conviction and most importantly...apply it.

There are tons of opinions on this all over the place. It can get downright confusing listening to all the various opinions.

Anyway just my two cents for what it's worth.

God Bless.

Carlos

[Splayd]

The problem I found when I studied this was that there appeared to be contradictions between the "plain meaning" of the texts and the practical examples we have from scripture. It's one of those topics I keep meaning to share more about in this forum but it's so much work ;)

Ultimately, I reached the conclusion that women can indeed preach and/or teach. I also believe they can be Deacons. I don't think they should be "the pastor" though.

Peace

[carlos123]

The problem I found when I studied this was that there appeared to be contradictions between the "plain meaning" of the texts and the practical examples we have from scripture. It's one of those topics I keep meaning to share more about in this forum but it's so much work ;)

Ultimately, I reached the conclusion that women can indeed preach and/or teach. I also believe they can be Deacons. I don't think they should be "the pastor" though.

Peace

Hi Splayd!

Just a thought...I think we shouldn't reject the plain meaning of things because something else seems to contradict the plain meaning.

I think of free will vs predistination.
I think of James and Paul with regard to salvation by works and faith.
And other issues.

Many such contradictions do not pan out to be so in time and after further reflection. Sometimes we just need to accept two seemingly contradictory truths. Not saying this is such but I guess I would be careful to reject the plain meaning of a set of verses because of examples that seem to contradict those same verses.

Carlos

[Splayd]

Oh I agree. I wouldn't dismiss any verse from scripture, but I'm also not inclined to consider verses entirely in isolation, from a Western 21st century midset.

In truth - I don't see any actual contradictions in scripture, but there are certainly things that might appear to be at first glance. When confronted with such things I don't find it particularly useful to simply pick a side. Rather - I dig deeper to see how they're reconciled. Having spent a great deal of time researching this particular matter - I'm confident with the conclusion I reached without having to compromise anywhere.

Peace

[BigRichard]

Help end Atheism! Go to www.jeebusnation.com and tell those atheists that they are wrong about God in their forums. They are out to become e-celebrities with their filth! Stand up and defend God from another atheist website. They have forums and let's go people! Christians need to take charge! Post on their forums!

[RefrusRevlis]

Hi Cremi, from what I can understand a woman can and should teach anyone, just not in the public worship "Church come together in one place". A woman may teach a man in a private context: Priscilla and Aquilla taught Apollos the way of God more accurately (Acts 18:26), but they "took him [aside]" and did this - ie privately. So any public meeting of the church would be the place where this restriction applies. As for women being pastors, a pastor, elder or bishop/overseer are all the same role, so a woman could not fulfill this role, since one of the requirements is being the husband of one wife Titus 1:6, 1 Timothy 3:2).
Refrus
:wave:

[AJB4]

Just putting the Bible aside for a moment:

Why would a woman not be able to preach and teach like men? It just seems incredibly sexist to me. Are women not as knowledgeable and have just as much to offer as men?

Maybe Paul just didn't like women...

[RefrusRevlis]

Just putting the Bible aside for a moment:

Why would a woman not be able to preach and teach like men? It just seems incredibly sexist to me. Are women not as knowledgeable and have just as much to offer as men?

Maybe Paul just didn't like women...


The question is not about ability, it's about what the Bible authorises. If we go against what the Bible says is permissible then we move into a dangerous area. Paul's teachings did not change (1 Corinthians 4:17) - the prohibitions in 1 Corinthians 14 were not only for that place at that time (Don't forget, there's also 1 Timothy 2:11-12). The words he spoke were divinely inspired (2 Timothy 3:16-17).
Paul loved women, he loved all people, that is why he was prepared to suffer so many things for the sake of the gospel (2 Cor. 11:23-33).
Refrus

[annie1speed]

AJB4, at the risk of incurring the wrath of Cremi again, let me ask you, why would you put the Bible aside? When we put the Bible aside, when we put our wishes and desires ahead of God and His 'instruction book', isn't that when we get in the most trouble?

Eve couldn't see why she and Adam could not eat the fruit of that one particular tree in the garden either. But God had His reasons that human minds could not fathom.

As a woman I may not speak from the pulpit, but that doesn't mean my influence is non-existent. Women have opportunities to teach and influence in many ways besides official public speaking in church services. Let's not be setting the Bible aside though.

Annie

[RefrusRevlis]

As a woman I may not speak from the pulpit, but that doesn't mean my influence is non-existent. Women have opportunities to teach and influence in many ways besides official public speaking in church services. Let's not be setting the Bible aside though.

Amen to that:amen:

[mrconstance]

AJB4, at the risk of incurring the wrath of Cremi again, let me ask you, why would you put the Bible aside? When we put the Bible aside, when we put our wishes and desires ahead of God and His 'instruction book', isn't that when we get in the most trouble?

Eve couldn't see why she and Adam could not eat the fruit of that one particular tree in the garden either. But God had His reasons that human minds could not fathom.

As a woman I may not speak from the pulpit, but that doesn't mean my influence is non-existent. Women have opportunities to teach and influence in many ways besides official public speaking in church services. Let's not be setting the Bible aside though.

Annie
The problem is that the Bible doesn't say you "can't speak from the pulpit" since the Bible doesn't mention pulpits at all. We don't need to set aside the Bible; we need to stop reading our own assumptions into the Bible.

[cremi]

Wow...I'm happy to see this topic is still going. I apreciate everyone's thoughts here--really.


Priscilla and Aquilla is a matter I will have to look more into. I think its important to see that Aquilla was with her and we don't know how much a role she had in teaching.

If women are allowed to teach and preach, how come Jesus didn't make any female apostles. Something to think about also. Good thoughts---I have also pondered that and also why we do not read about female preachers in the NT.
Hi cremi,
I really appreciate your heart in wanting to know what God thinks. That's wonderful to behold!

I won't be participating in this thread much if at all since it seems more of a discuss your opinions thread than a look into the text as written thread. May I however, make a suggestion cremi?Thank you for those thoughts, however, my intention here was to study---rather than throw out opinions of my own or to have this thread be only opinion based. That being said, if you choose to come back and participate, PLEASE provide scripture and let's discuss why you believe as you do. That is what I'm looking for.

If you want to know what God thinks about this, pick a verse, any verse dealing with women's conduct in a church setting and then pray and ask God to open your mind to understand what is written. In the plain meaning of what is said. At the risk of perceiving that I'm being talked down to here--I have done as you have suggested. I'm just seeking some good study here.

Hi Cremi, from what I can understand a woman can and should teach anyone, just not in the public worship "Church come together in one place". A woman may teach a man in a private context: Priscilla and Aquilla taught Apollos the way of God more accurately (Acts 18:26), but they "took him [aside]" and did this - ie privately. So any public meeting of the church would be the place where this restriction applies. As for women being pastors, a pastor, elder or bishop/overseer are all the same role, so a woman could not fulfill this role, since one of the requirements is being the husband of one wife Titus 1:6, 1 Timothy 3:2). I am in agreement that women cannot be elders/bishops/overseers/pastors. I also have come to the conclusion that teaching in private is a bit different and that part of what made it acceptable for Priscilla, was that Aquilla was with her. The verse in Timothy though, does not mention preaching specificially. It says:
1 Timothy 2:12
12I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.
There is no mention of preaching here-which is why I asked earlier if there was a difference in preaching and teaching. I have always equated the two--preaching and teaching--but perhaps I was wrong?

So then I have pondered where the line is. A small group setting. Not a formal "worship", yet what if a woman appears to be "leading" the bible study? (I'm talking men and women at the bible study)I'm still very uncomfortable with the idea of a woman leading a bible study in mixed situations. Yet, I've been a part of many bible studies where the "leader" wasn't really leading, didn't know how to teach the study, or had his facts wrong. In those cases, I "took" the lead by asking some questions or correcting some errors on his part.

Is it okay for a woman to give communion thoughts? Technically, she is just sharing her thoughts--not really a preaching or teaching moment.

Just putting the Bible aside for a moment

Why would a woman not be able to preach and teach like men? It just seems incredibly sexist to me. Are women not as knowledgeable and have just as much to offer as men?

Maybe Paul just didn't like women...
Maybe---but I doubt it. God made women and he made us strong. I think in some senses, we've had to be held down a bit becasue we could easily let our ability to influence, overtake quite a few men. In part, I believe that is why women have been instructed to "hush" up a bit.

But more importantly, God inspired Paul to write the letters that he did. He met him on the road to Damascus, blinded him, and worked such a miracle in his heart that I can't see God then putting Paul in such a place, as to write the epistles--only to degrade women. God has always lifted women up--not the other way around.

You really can't step away from the bible, because without that understanding, anything we are talking about here is meaningless.

AJB4, at the risk of incurring the wrath of Cremi again,<snip>Your comments, thoughts and scriptures are always welcomed on any of my threads.:) When we put the Bible aside, when we put our wishes and desires ahead of God and His 'instruction book', isn't that when we get in the most trouble?

Eve couldn't see why she and Adam could not eat the fruit of that one particular tree in the garden either. But God had His reasons that human minds could not fathom.Good thoughts here. Thank you.

The problem is that the Bible doesn't say you "can't speak from the pulpit" since the Bible doesn't mention pulpits at all. We don't need to set aside the Bible; we need to stop reading our own assumptions into the Bible. And this is what in part--has prompted my questions and this thread. Technically no--the bible doesn't mention pulpits--but I'm assuming that annie meant that as a woman, she was not allowed to preach. (correct me if I'm wrong annie) Literally though--does that also mean a woman cannot give her testimony from the pulpit? Does that mean she can't give communion thoughts from pulpit?

From my studies, I cannot find an example in the NT church of women preaching or teaching men in a public setting. However, women did prophesy. That does say to me that God used women, even in public worship settings. They were not always completely silent, but were used by God for a purpose. Have we silenced women too much?

Carry on...:)

[annie1speed]

Thanks Cremi. That is what I meant. By my nature I much prefer speaking one on one to people over a public forum anyway. BUT if I wanted to publicly address a mixed group, it would not be um, appreciated. :D

Annie

[Loveaboveall]

Thanks Cremi. That is what I meant. By my nature I much prefer speaking one on one to people over a public forum anyway. BUT if I wanted to publicly address a mixed group, it would not be um, appreciated. :D

Annie


Annie,

I would let you teach at my bible study any day.;)

You have been given the gift of teaching as testified by your position as a professor of Chemistry with an IQ well over 150 I am sure:thumbsup: . You know your bible, WELL, and you demonstrate the love of Jesus in your heart. What more could you ask from a person in leading out a bible study?

[annie1speed]

Hey Loveaboveall,

What am I going to do with you? When you talk about my IQ its kind of like a fish story (gets bigger every time ;) ).

Seriously, I can say all of those things about you. What a blessing to have Christian friends to study with.

Annie

[RefrusRevlis]

The verse in Timothy though, does not mention preaching specificially. It says:
1 Timothy 2:12
12I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.

1 Tim 2:8-12
I desire therefore that the men ray everywhere, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting; 9 in like manner also, that the women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with propriety and moderation, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing, 10 but, which is proper for women professing godliness, with good works. 11 Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. 12 And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence.

We must limit the scope of this passage, otherwise women would not be permitted to speak at all (v12). This would not make sense. The word "everywhere" - does not mean in every possible place, but in every place where christians assemble for public worship. It is quite clear that women could teach (Priscilla for instance). As for the definition of "preaching" versus "teaching" - I will post on this later, Lord willing.

Refrus

[wonderwoman]

Some really good questions posed in the OP.

If Jesus came today rather than 2000 yrs ago, I wonder if he would have chosen both women and men as apostles?

I think the argument used against women leaders with "well Jesus only chose male apostles" is a weak one, since no one, in that time, would have ever followed a woman as women were not only uneducated but viewed as second class in almost every way. The fact that he only chose men as apostles doesn't equate to me that God would not or does not consider a female to have authority to teach or preach in a public setting.

There are arguments for both sides on this topic, but at the end of the day, I ask myself, why would God consider a woman to be ill equipped to be a preacher/teacher in a public setting innately? Is this an innate incapability that he programmed her with? If so, why? Why would gender be a deciding factor?

Someone here sited one of the reasons he didn't think female pastors were a good idea was because most of the female pastors he knew were "man-hating" lesbian-condoning and too liberal etc. I could make a pretty long list of really bad male pastors both liberal and conservative..... What does that teach me about authority? Nothing.

If Paul appointed "preaching elders" as males, wouldn't that have just been consistent since only males were the ones who were educated at that time? Is my assumption about the little education provided for women incorrect? Jewish women and some gentile women were literate but how equipped would they have been in those days to be preachers and teachers? Just because Paul appointed men, does that necessarily follow that only men are called to do the job just because they're men? Is gender the pre-requisite or is it a lot more than that?