Alcohol Again

[AJB4]

Okay, I'm quite honestly really freaked out by this subject at the moment. It seems like both parties are on opposite sides - either you think moderate drinking's OK or you don't, basically. It doesn't seem like a big deal but it's freaking me out a bit.

I freaked out a little bit after reading this (http://www.ao.net/%7Efmoeller/winebk.htm). This guy seems very knowledgeable. Oh, and he appears to be from the Restoration Movement Church of Christ?

Being you guys are Greek Orthodox, a lot of you would speak Greek, so you should know better than anyone. Please, I really feel like I need some help with this.

[Oblio]

The Church allows alcohol in moderation.

'nuff said.

[AJB4]

The Church allows alcohol in moderation.

'nuff said.
For you, maybe, but I'm not a part of it yet, so that doesn't really cut the mustard for me.

[Oblio]

I skimmed the article. Eisegesis is the term that comes to mind.

[Smileyill]

I'm not EO, so hopefully I offended nobody. I drink in moderation (as in 1/mth or so), but could easily give it up, if I thought God required me to. I even skimmed the article with that in mind

But I agree with Oblio. I especially found the article's analysis of the water-into-wine miracle poor. The article never even addresses the Last Supper.

I agree we must avoid drunkeness or becoming a stumbling block to a brother, but the Bible permits us to drink alcohol. I generally don't because I dislike spending money on it when real fruit juice tastes better to me.

[Greg the byzantine]

I would like to point out that the modern greek verb "get drunk" "na methisei" (sorry I am not sure of the infinitive) is directly derived from the word "methuo" found in the bible.

It is not some mere coincidence based on some abstract connection between indulgence and drinking.


I just looked this up, and found this link, not that I advocate this site, but just to offer you a different perspective.

http://halleluyah.org/Wine%20in%20the%20Bible.htm



You also have to look at the absurdity of it. There is no need for so many different words for unfermented wine. In most modern languages there are two words in the terms used for wine and wine making. In modern greek there is "mousto" which is the unfermented grape juice which will be fermented to be made into wine, and "krasi" which is the fermented wine. In Italian the word I believe is also "Musto" for the unfermented grape juice and "vino" for the fermented product. However fermented wine also has other names based on its color, flavor, region, etc. Like Zinfandel, Chardonnay, Chianti etc. There is still only one word for the unfermented product.


Also if you are going to take the church's interpretation you have to look at its practices. In the Lytia/artoklasia/vigil the church bless "siton" "oinon" and "eleon" which are translated as Wheat (in the form of bread), wine, and oil. And in fact wine (the fermented product) is blessed. Meaning the church clearly sees the word "oinos" (and this has been practiced for a very long time) to be wine.

Also if we are to say that the Last and Mystical Supper, The Institution of the Holy Communion was a Passover meal or Sedar then there is no question that wine was used, as the traditional drink is wine. Even if you look at Jewish traditions today, prayers are said over WINE at the passover sedar.

[Akathist]

When I was looking at the Church, I saw its history, it is rich worship life, its asceticism and said to myself: This is it, this is the Truth, this is the Church Christ founded.

There was nothing I would ever let interfere with my conversion. So, when I would come accross some tradition (small "t") that I didn't want to follow or be a part of, I would smile and say to myself: "nope, this is not going to be something I will use to keep me out of the Church." The temptation was there to be offended or "freaked out" by this or that, but I refused to give in to it.

I suggest you let this matter go, and focus on your prayer life and reading the Orthodox Study bible with the notes and since you can't drink alcohol now, just don't dwell on it.

[kamikat]

In Italian the word I believe is also "Musto" for the unfermented grape juice and "vino" for the fermented product.

It is also interesting to note that "must" is used by English speakers to specify pulp and juice that is being prepared for fermentation.

As I've said before, pray for peace about this issue, put it aside and come back to it later. It is an act of faith to trust the Church. We can talk until we're blue in the face, but only the Holy Spirit can convict you on this.

[Dewi Sant]

I had a look at the article, and to be honest, I didn't think much of it.


Alcohol, I suppose could be compared to candy.
It is delightful to have a small amount, for it brings joy to the person eating it.
But to eat it continuously causes it to lose its sweetness and also causes for the person eating it to become obese.

I beleive there are many parallels.

[Philothei]

Why use a Jehovan Witness site for information they are not even Christians.... sorry but truth put forth...
No offense but I need proof they believe in the creed and the Holy Trinity and the after life....

P.

[AJB4]

Why use a Jehovan Witness site for information they are not even Christians.... sorry but truth put forth...
No offense but I need proof they believe in the creed and the Holy Trinity and the after life....

P.
Was the website I used Jehovah's Witness? After a short bit of exploring of that site, it links to a site of a Restoration Movement Church of Christ in Australia.

[buzuxi02]

Dear AJ,

Look in your yellow pages and find a store which sells wine making supplies. Go get what is needed and ferment your own grapejuice the same way they did 2000 years ago. Grapejuice turns to wine in 40 days, theres no grapejuice in April when the passover was being celebrated.

The only thing that article should prove to you , is how much people who claim to be authorities on God are actually big time liars.

[Vasileios]

"οίνος ευφραίνει καρδίαν ανθρώπου" from the Psalms. (wine gladdens the heart of man)
οίνος means wine (in today's Greek as well). Whoever suggests that οίνος does not mean wine does not know greek. Period. There are tons of resources from the ancient greek world with οίνος clearly stating it is wine.

This is one of the most absurd attempt to twist words into your own ideas (not you AJB4).

But in the end of the day what we Orthodox trust and believe are what the Fathers before us say is the Truth, preserved in the teachings of the Church. Read the life of the saints (pick one!) and then ask yourself if these men and women had a spiritual problem because they drank wine.

[Michael the Iconographer]

I dont get the issue with alcohol use at all. Alcohol abuse, yes, but alcohol use, no.

[Kristos]

Okay, I'm quite honestly really freaked out by this subject at the moment. It seems like both parties are on opposite sides - either you think moderate drinking's OK or you don't, basically. It doesn't seem like a big deal but it's freaking me out a bit.

I freaked out a little bit after reading this (http://www.ao.net/%7Efmoeller/winebk.htm). This guy seems very knowledgeable. Oh, and he appears to be from the Restoration Movement Church of Christ?

Being you guys are Greek Orthodox, a lot of you would speak Greek, so you should know better than anyone. Please, I really feel like I need some help with this.
Why is this even on your mind? You have 6 years before you are even legally allowed to consure alcohol.

[Michael the Iconographer]

Okay, I'm quite honestly really freaked out by this subject at the moment. It seems like both parties are on opposite sides - either you think moderate drinking's OK or you don't, basically. It doesn't seem like a big deal but it's freaking me out a bit.

I freaked out a little bit after reading this (http://www.ao.net/%7Efmoeller/winebk.htm). This guy seems very knowledgeable. Oh, and he appears to be from the Restoration Movement Church of Christ?

Being you guys are Greek Orthodox, a lot of you would speak Greek, so you should know better than anyone. Please, I really feel like I need some help with this.
Not ALL of us are Greek Orthodox and it is an error to think that because someone is Orthodox they should speak Greek.

[Smileyill]

Why is this even on your mind? You have 6 years before you are even legally allowed to consure alcohol.
I found that making an early decision helps ensure the correct decision when faced with a tempting situation. So I don't nock his question, though I disagree with the article.

[Breaking Babylon]

Why is this even on your mind? You have 6 years before you are even legally allowed to consure alcohol.
You'd understand a little more if you came from the hardline CoC. If they were to have official dogmas, among the top in bold print would be "Alcohol is of the DEVIL."

It's a stumbling block for nearly everyone coming out of the CoC. And when it's been beaten into your mind for years and years, it's scary to just "overlook" certain things when you've been taught it could damn your soul.

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

You don't have to drink alcohol to be Orthodox, AJB4. There are plenty of people who choose to abstain for personal reasons, and that's just fine. You would, however, need to get to a place where you would not be judging other people for drinking in moderation.

I've seen lots of alcohol show up at feasts at Church, but I've never seen anyone get drunk. That would be a huge no-no (very much frowned upon). I've heard stories about people getting drunk at paschal feasts (in non-western countries), but I've never seen it myself. I don't think any priest would approve of it.

[Michael the Iconographer]

You'd understand a little more if you came from the hardline CoC. If they were to have official dogmas, among the top in bold print would be "Alcohol is of the DEVIL."

It's a stumbling block for nearly everyone coming out of the CoC. And when it's been beaten into your mind for years and years, it's scary to just "overlook" certain things when you've been taught it could damn your soul.
My x-wife must not have been hardline Church of Christ because she had no problem drinking wine, beer, champagne or rum.

[Lotar]

My x-wife must not have been hardline Church of Christ because she had no problem drinking wine, beer, champagne or rum.
Maybe she was United Church of Christ?

[Lotar]

I have a friend who used to be a Pentacostle pastor before he converted to Orthodoxy. He had the same thing with being raised to believe that drinking alcohol was a sin. Now he drinks a glass of something here and there, even though he doesn't particularly enjoy it, just so he doesn't get judgemental about it.

[Michael the Iconographer]

Maybe she was United Church of Christ?
No, she was Church of Christ. She made it clear she didn't agree with the CoC views on alcohol. She also wasn't brought up CoC but converted sometime in her early 20s.

[NyssaTheHobbit]

You'd understand a little more if you came from the hardline CoC. If they were to have official dogmas, among the top in bold print would be "Alcohol is of the DEVIL."

It's a stumbling block for nearly everyone coming out of the CoC. And when it's been beaten into your mind for years and years, it's scary to just "overlook" certain things when you've been taught it could damn your soul.

The Nazarene Church, too! I was raised to shun movie theaters (though VCR movies were okay), cigarettes, dancing, and most of all, alcohol. Once, after my mom cleaned a guy's house, he came up to her with two bottles of alcohol and said, "Merry Christmas, Mary!" It made her uncomfortable, but she was gracious. She ended up giving it to my grandpa for Christmas--which he loved.

It was a point of pride for me that I got through my first 21 years without one drop of alcohol. I've also avoided it ever since I came "of age" because, even though my head knew it was okay in moderation, I just didn't feel right drinking it.

I have a friend who used to be a Pentacostle pastor before he converted to Orthodoxy. He had the same thing with being raised to believe that drinking alcohol was a sin. Now he drinks a glass of something here and there, even though he doesn't particularly enjoy it, just so he doesn't get judgemental about it.

Maybe I should try doing that, to get that judgmentalism out--if I can just find a kind I like. :P

[Smileyill]

The Nazarene Church, too! I was raised to shun movie theaters (though VCR movies were okay), cigarettes, dancing, and most of all, alcohol. Once, after my mom cleaned a guy's house, he came up to her with two bottles of alcohol and said, "Merry Christmas, Mary!" It made her uncomfortable, but she was gracious. She ended up giving it to my grandpa for Christmas--which he loved.

It was a point of pride for me that I got through my first 21 years without one drop of alcohol. I've also avoided it ever since I came "of age" because, even though my head knew it was okay in moderation, I just didn't feel right drinking it.



Maybe I should try doing that, to get that judgmentalism out--if I can just find a kind I like. :P
Really no need to drink if you don't like it. Of course don't judge those that do either....

[AJB4]

Why is this even on your mind? You have 6 years before you are even legally allowed to consure alcohol.

That's a fair question. I guess I'm thinking ahead. FYI, in my country, the legal age is 18, which means I only have two and a bit years.

Not ALL of us are Greek Orthodox and it is an error to think that because someone is Orthodox they should speak Greek.

Sorry. I sometimes get the terms Eastern Orthodox and Greek Orthodox mixed up. And a lot of you do speak Greek. Not all of you, but a lot of you probably would.

You'd understand a little more if you came from the hardline CoC. If they were to have official dogmas, among the top in bold print would be "Alcohol is of the DEVIL."

It's a stumbling block for nearly everyone coming out of the CoC. And when it's been beaten into your mind for years and years, it's scary to just "overlook" certain things when you've been taught it could damn your soul.

Thank you for that. As in my case, when your entire family is hardline CoC, it's even more difficult :D