A Muslim Kosovo? Europe?

[repentant]

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/ID17Ak01.html

Interesting article.

[buzuxi02]

Europe soon to be called Eurabia.

The serbs are the only ones left, willing to stand up for their way of life. I hope they never align with the west and instead with Russia.
I just wish my countrymen of greece were more like the serbs and less like the spineless liberal cowards that they have become.

[TrueHope]

Thankfully, you can't include my husband in that category. He Loves what Russia stands for and is extremely disappointed in his government. He is so anti-Muslim. Our immediate neighbors are Turkish and Albanian. He, along with many others here are angry that Greece has let the "traitors" into his country. He had an opportunity to work in Serbia, and was so excited, but it fell through. Luckily there are many priests here who are really trying to educate their congregations as to what's really happening and to stick to their beliefs no matter what will happen.

[repentant]

eleuqeria h qanatos!!!

Just had to say it...

[TrueHope]

eleuqeria h qanatos!!!

Just had to say it...
....um....:scratch:...what does that mean? :confused:


:)

[TrueHope]

[quote=repentant;33992257]eleuqeria h qanatos!!!

Hah...The post came up different than when I had my response screen. Nice trick on the boards part. Got it!!!!
Freedom or Death.

[eoe]

ελευθερία ή θάνατος

[EricTheRed]

I wish the Serbs the best. I would like to think that the US would get off its butt and help the fight against Islam worldwide. But I do not see this happening with the election looming

[EmperorConstantine]

The Serbs stopped the Muslims once. They can do it again.

Stupid oil-mongers and their power. When will they realize that they are helping the executioner?

[Shubunkin]

I so wish we could find alternate (and cleaner) fuels for our cars. I'd buy one tomorrow if they had something reliable that doesn't quit on the freeway suddenly. Things that work... and help our the planet, possibly.

[nestoj]

What happens – happens.

nestoj
God helps

[Akathist]

What happens – happens.

nestoj
God helps

That is my point of view. I feel resigned that I have no power over such matters and reading history, I see that there is the work of God in even the worst of situations.

I do fear the increase of Islamic fundamentalist into the Balkins though. I fear for our Churches there and my brothers and sisters in Christ.

I met this lovely man not long ago who was held in a camp run by the Albanians. He is EO and was tortured there resulting in permenmently disabled. When I see stuff like this I think of him and how he represents many many others who have been hurt.

Then I think of his wonderful humility and grateful nature and how he said that he is better for all that he went through and stronger in his faith. What a testimony he was to me when I was not yet in the Church.

[zhilan]

Wow, this thread makes me ashamed.

[Komnenos]

Well as Im living in a Muslim country I will give my 2 cents. The only time Christians are threatened here are during Grey Wolf rallys. For those of you who dont know the Wolves are a Turkish fundamentalist group who want the Patriarchate and all Christians out of Turkey. Its a real shame. I hope Europe (and Turkey) wake up and start fighting the Evil Islamic Fundamentalists

[ufonium2]

Were the Wolves responsible for the murder of those Christian publishers this week? I just saw the headline but didn't get a chance to read the article.

[EmperorConstantine]

Well as Im living in a Muslim country I will give my 2 cents. The only time Christians are threatened here are during Grey Wolf rallys. For those of you who dont know the Wolves are a Turkish fundamentalist group who want the Patriarchate and all Christians out of Turkey. Its a real shame. I hope Europe (and Turkey) wake up and start fighting the Evil Islamic Fundamentalists
History repeats itself and tells us: all the pieces are there. We just don't know its checkmate until it is too late.

[CuriousityKilledThe]

He is so anti-Muslim. .

Because being anti-Muslim is a Christian characteristic all Orthodox should be proud of! :thumbsup:

(Islam is the religion, Muslim is the person)

[Orthosdoxa]

No need for sarcasm.

Islam is the religion, Muslim is the person

I agree saying anti-Islam would be better. I'd be willing to bet it's closer to the truth, anyway. My own priest is anti-Islam, having a long history of his own family members down throughout the ages having been murdered by Muslims for refusing to convert. ( I at one point thought it was only one, but in a more recent conversation he said there was several.)

It grinds me when Christians defend a demonically inspired religion as valid or have hissy fits when it's criticized. But individual Muslims are not placed all in the same box by most of us who are anti-Islam (despite some people on here foolishly judging otherwise.). I feel sorry for so many of those people in the Middle East who've been prevented through sharia law from even learning about anything else. Hub told me tonight about a radio show that was talking about how crowds of civilians in Iraq were hanging around outside military bases, begging for Bibles. That tells you something right there.

[repentant]

Only if they read a Bible, they get raped...sick

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,21567726-2,00.html

[Matrona]

Because being anti-Muslim is a Christian characteristic all Orthodox should be proud of! :thumbsup:

(Islam is the religion, Muslim is the person)

:D

I get tired of having to defend Islam to people who should know better. It's a religion, not a disease or a hive-mind. Fundamentalism and extremism are the real diseases, and those are not limited to spreading along religious lines. Even Christians have been known to catch those on occasion.

And I can't think of anything else Westerners and non-Muslims can do to effectively perpetuate terrorism and inter-religious strife, other than to cultivate these stereotypes based along religious lines ("They're a hive mind!" "Those turban-wearing terrorists!") because it helps extremist/fundamentalist Muslim leaders keep the perception of Western societal stratification (with Muslims perpetually at the bottom, constantly being stepped-on by Westerners) alive in young Muslims vulnerable for recruiting... by making that perception an accurate one.

[Orthosdoxa]

I saw that Repentant. :( Sick.

[Orthosdoxa]

I get tired of having to defend Islam to people who should know better.Well, Matrona, there's a simple solution to that. Stop assuming that everyone who sees it differently than you must not have thought it through and needs you to educate them.

[Matrona]

Well, Matrona, there's a simple solution to that. Stop assuming that everyone who sees it differently than you must not have thought it through and needs you to educate them.

Perhaps you should focus your attention inward and ask yourself why you assume that I assume you haven't thought this through just because I disagree with you. From the way you articulate your opinions on Islam and related subject matter, it is readily apparent to me that you haven't given the matter a great deal of scholarly attention. And that's okay. Studying the religions isn't everyone's cup of tea. But until you decide you can do that, it would be best to withhold these broad, sweeping judgments regarding Islam, because even if your judgments were correct, it's wrong to reach them with those means.

[Orthosdoxa]

ROFLOL!

First you imply my "assumption" is incorrect, then you prove it was right by saying, it is readily apparent to me that you haven't given the matter a great deal of scholarly attention.

Every time you post, it becomes more and more clear how judgmental you are, despite having fits when people "judge" Islam.

I'm sure you'll fire off something back, and that's okay. I'm not going to go tit for tat with you. I'll let you have the last word and win. Perhaps some day you'll grow up and practice what you preach. But I'm not holding my breath.

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

What on earth is wrong with "judging" a false god? If we are Orthodox Christians, then we believe what the Creed says, that there is one God in Three Persons and one True Church. There are no other religions that have equal validity with Christianity. There is one God and his prophet is not Mohammad. It is not wrong to call a false god/religion evil. On the contrary, I think it quite wrong to call evil good based on academic "enlightenment".

It has been agreed upon that we do not hate muslims. This is good. I think we can also agree (well, most of us, anyway) that when muslims decide to obey the Koran by killing "infidels" (aka Christians), this is a very evil thing.

[Orthosdoxa]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta again.

Now we wait for the Thought Police to tell us, oh, but we DO hate Muslims, we just don't know it.

Thanks for a post with a lot of common sense. I needed to see one.

[Akathist]

What on earth is wrong with "judging" a false god? If we are Orthodox Christians, then we believe what the Creed says, that there is one God in Three Persons and one True Church. There are no other religions that have equal validity with Christianity. There is one God and his prophet is not Mohammad. It is not wrong to call a false god/religion evil. On the contrary, I think it quite wrong to call evil good based on academic "enlightenment".

It has been agreed upon that we do not hate Muslims. This is good. I think we can also agree (well, most of us, anyway) that when Muslims decide to obey the Koran by killing "infidels" (aka Christians), this is a very evil thing.

I agree with you except for the part I highlighted above. You see, the Koran does not teach the killing of infidels. That is an interpretation of parts of the Koran by some of the Islamic groups, but it is not itself inside the Koran.

I don't agree with Islam at all. I have read the Koran all of it once (every word) and a second time parts of it. The second time I read parts of it for a college course on Islam, the first because I was dating an Islamic convert who wanted me to convert as well.

Hope that is enough scholarly research to please everyone in this thread. However, if not, my major in College was a double major of Religion and Anthropology and I graduated with honors.

This said my conclusion is that Islam is not based on Truth. It is based on people's ideas of truth, and for those believers it is the truth. Whether it is a different god then the one I worship is not something I put much thought into anymore. I used to say, "yes" or "probably". However, since becoming EO, I now say: "I no longer have an opinion about this matter. It is between them and God... by that I mean the Holy Trinity. Their salvation is not something I decide, or even have a vote in.

However, I am required by the teaching of my faith to love others, even if someone acts like my enemy, I am to love them. Therefore, I love the Muslim, but disagree with Islam.

I hate terrorism, but love the misguided person who acts in such a violent destructive manner.

This does not mean however, that I want to see Kosovo become another Muslim state. I don't because I am concerned about my brothers and sisters in Christ who live there. I am also concerned about the historical sites that are a part of the EOC's heritage located there.

[Orthosdoxa]

I heart you, Akathist. :hug: :kiss:

[Akathist]

some quotes from the Koran that show that it teaches peaceful defensive behavior, not terrorism:


Invite all to the way of your lord* with wisdom and beautiful preaching.
And argue with them
in ways that are best and most gracious...
And if you punish,
let your punishment be proportional
to the wrong that has been done to you.
But if you show patience, that is indeed the best course.
Be patient, for your patience is from god*.
And do not grieve over them,
or distress yourself because of their plots.
For god* is with those who restrain themselves,
and those who do good.
Qur'an 16:125-128
(*I removed the capitalization of this word to prevent offending anyone here.)


Goodness and evil are not equal.
Repel evil with what is better.
Then that person with whom there was hatred,
may become your intimate friend!
And no one will be granted such goodness
except those who exercise patience and self-restraint,
none but people of the greatest good fortune.
Qur'an 41:34-35

[Akathist]

I heart you, Akathist. :hug: :kiss:

Thanks, I :hug: :kiss: you back my sister.

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

I agree with you except for the part I highlighted above. You see, the Koran does not teach the killing of infidels. That is an interpretation of parts of the Koran by some of the Islamic groups, but it is not itself inside the Koran.

I don't agree with Islam at all. I have read the Koran all of it once (every word) and a second time parts of it. The second time I read parts of it for a college course on Islam, the first because I was dating an Islamic convert who wanted me to convert as well.

Hope that is enough scholarly research to please everyone in this thread. However, if not, my major in College was a double major of Religion and Anthropology and I graduated with honors.

This said my conclusion is that Islam is not based on Truth. It is based on people's ideas of truth, and for those believers it is the truth. Whether it is a different god then the one I worship is not something I put much thought into anymore. I used to say, "yes" or "probably". However, since becoming EO, I now say: "I no longer have an opinion about this matter. It is between them and God... by that I mean the Holy Trinity. Their salvation is not something I decide, or even have a vote in.

However, I am required by the teaching of my faith to love others, even if someone acts like my enemy, I am to love them. Therefore, I love the Muslim, but disagree with Islam.

I hate terrorism, but love the misguided person who acts in such a violent destructive manner.

This does not mean however, that I want to see Kosovo become another Muslim state. I don't because I am concerned about my brothers and sisters in Christ who live there. I am also concerned about the historical sites that are a part of the EOC's heritage located there.

I'm sure you know more Koran than I do, so I'll take your word for it. I took a middle eastern studies class once where we briefly discussed it. I remember a verse we discussed that instructed men to beat their wives into submission, or something along that line. That stuck with me. Nonetheless, many muslims seem to perceive that the Koran promotes violence against "infidels", and whether or not they are "extremists" is a subject of debate, and one I'd rather not go into.;)

Oh, and I do not believe for a second that they serve the same God as we do, but again, not something we need to debate.:) I appreciate your post, Akathist.

[Akathist]

"And among His signs is this, that He created for you mates from among yourselves, that you may dwell in tranquility with them, and he has put love and mercy between your (hearts)..." Qu'ran 30:21



"O you who believe! You are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should you treat them with harshness, that you may take away part of the marital gift you have given them, except when they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary, live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If you take a dislike to them, it may be that you dislike a thing through which Allah brings about a great deal of good (Qur'an 4:19)."

I don't remember reading anywhere in the Koran about wife beating being acceptable, though there is parts about wives being obedient to thier husbands..... just like St. Paul's quote. If taken out of content... and missing the part about the husband must love his wife as Christ loves the Church (sacrificially), one might make the same assumption about the Bible.

This does not mean that there is not a problem with domestic violence within the Muslim community. But, it is not because this is what the Koran teaches, but rather, because it is a cultural matter.

When I married a Serbian, I was warned.. I was told "Serbian men beat their wives." My husband is divorced from his first wife. He said when he went to the court for the interview related to the divorce his exwife was asked "did he beat you?" The answer was "no". My husband said a lot of Serbian men do beat their wives, but not all of them, and not the majority either. It is a cultural part of some families.

And we all know, the Bible does not teach men to beat their wives.

Again, I don't agree with Islam. I really don't. I don't want it to take over Kosovo. But I think it is fair to relate information accurately. Just as I don't like it when people say I "worship" icons, I think it is important to be fair to all faiths and try to relate things as they are taught.

That said, I think some clerics in islam might teach that the beating of wives into submission or to punish is part of the faith... in very fundamental groups.

(BTW, I once heard a Pentecostal preacher say that punishing one's wife is a man's duty too and that wives should submit at all times, and especially to that punishment. It doesn't mean Pentecostal's teach wife beating is OK, only that one preacher.)

[Orthosdoxa]

There are many passages in the Koran which encourage violence against nonbelievers. (do a google search and you'll find many web pages that highlight all those passages.) Then there are those that are more benign, like Akathist posted. Either way, the Koran has been used by millions upon millions and millions of Muslims down throughout the ages as reason to kill non-Muslims. Consistently, ever since Moohammud made it up. I first took an interest in Islam in high school and have read on and off about the history of it ever since. There is simply no denying history and what has happened in the name of their god for over a millenia now. Whether that type of violence is what the Koran "intended" is a debate that is not winnable by anyone here, as no one had a TV into Mo's mind when he was inventing all this stuff. I know what I think, as do others.

Therefore, it is only the results of Islam I can look at it to decide what kind of religion it is. Evidently I'm not skolerlee enuff for some people here, (and we ALL know scholasticism is the goal of the Christian life, right? ;)) but I know what I've read. However, I can't see that that's even the main point. The main point is the people. And for all the millions that behave violently, there are other millions who are lost, trapped, and thanks to sharia law (which comes from the Koran), under threat of death if they even TRY to look for another way. It is very sad. And sharia is spreading, which is a discussion for another thread.

Pray for our brothers and sisters in Serbia and the Middle East, Indonesia and elsewhere whose lives are constantly under threat by Islamists. And pray for the rest of the Muslim world that they will let go of the religion inspired by demons and embrace the True Light of Christ.

And PS to GDE - I'm totally with you on the same god thing or not. If the Trinity is the backbone of our theology, how can we serve the same God as those who fiecely deny it and even spit on the idea?

[Orthosdoxa]

Actually, Akathist, there is a Hadith which says it's okay to beat wives. But I don't know how much each individual Muslim group listens to those, if they're equal to the Koran or what.

[Akathist]

Actually, Akathist, there is a Hadith which says it's okay to beat wives. But I don't know how much each individual Muslim group listens to those, if they're equal to the Koran or what.

From what I understad the Hadiths is treated as secondary to the Koran and if they contradict the Koran, they are disregarded.... by SOME Muslims.

Others, see the Hadith as being equal to the Koran and base their interpretation of the Koran on the Hadiths.

There is a Hadith by mohammad about how men are to be kind and gentle to their wives too... but I don't have a source on that.

I agree with you about the need to pray for our fellow EO in countries that are Muslim. I believe there is very real prejudices against Christian's in those countries and that their lives are not very easy at all.


O Lord save thy people,
And bless thine inheritance.
Grant victories to the Orthodox Christians,
Over their adversaries.



Shining with pure rays,Holy Cross sheds its divine light
upon the nations darkened by beguilement of error,
and it reconciles them to Christ who was crucified on it
granting peace to our souls.
–Matins Canon Canticle 5 / September 14: Feast of the of the Elevation of the Life-giving Cross [September 14: Feast of the of the Elevation of Life-giving Cross]

[Edial]

How do people that say that Koran does not promote violence against People of the Book (meaning Christians and Jews) explain these Koran verses?

Sura 9 (http://www.submission.org/suras/sura9.htm)-29: “Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.”

Sura 47 (http://www.submission.org/suras/sura47.html)-4: “When you meet the unbelievers, strike off their heads; then when you have made wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives”

I know that some people promote that the Koran presents mercy to others.
They also quote verses from Koran about showing mercy.

But don't these verses apply towards OTHER Muslims?

Thanks,
Ed

[EmperorConstantine]

What I want to know, is why the politicians roll over whenever there is so much evil starring them in the face.

[CuriousityKilledThe]

If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. Deuteronomy 13:7-12

Yeah, look at that evil Islam, with all its decrees to kill non-believers.

Oh wait... this is from the Torah? This is what Jews are supposed to believe? Er... nevermind.

Maybe, just maybe, religious beliefs don't simplistically and mechanically determine the behavior of their adherents. Otherwise, Jews should regularly kill non-Jews and should regularly stone adulteresses and homosexuals.

And maybe if we could realize this, we would understand that terrorism and the atrocities that occur in Muslim Asia are a complex social phenomena that stem from almost innumerable variables of which religion is only one factor. And that unthinkingly linking "Islam" with "violence" is a terrible, terrible mistake, bound to produce no good whatsoever, a mistake that is too reminiscent of the tendency in the 60s to equate being black with being "inferoir" and in the 40s to equate being Jewish with being the source of all of Europe's problems. Perhaps the world is more complex than the simple binaries we prefer.

But I guess it's a lot easier to pull quotes out of the Koran as if that's really, you know, saying anything. If you prefer not to think, at least be balanced and rant about Jews and their backwards, violent laws, and that those aberrational "peaceful Jews" who don't stone their adulteresses "aren't real Jews."

Or maybe people can keep their religious beliefs, as the Jews have done, yet outgrow the violence which is common in the Torah. Oh, if that's the case, maybe we should stop complaining about Islam and look for the real sources of these problems.

[EricTheRed]

Thats a nice passage. I wonder how muslims get past their Holy Book disagreeing with itself.

[Matrona]

Maybe, just maybe, religious beliefs don't simplistically and mechanically determine the behavior of their adherents. Otherwise, Jews should regularly kill non-Jews and should regularly stone adulteresses and homosexuals.

And maybe if we could realize this, we would understand that terrorism and the atrocities that occur in Muslim Asia are a complex social phenomena that stem from almost innumerable variables of which religion is only one factor. And that unthinkingly linking "Islam" with "violence" is a terrible, terrible mistake, bound to produce no good whatsoever, a mistake that is too reminiscent of the tendency in the 60s to equate being black with being "inferoir" and in the 40s to equate being Jewish with being the source of all of Europe's problems. Perhaps the world is more complex than the simple binaries we prefer.

But I guess it's a lot easier to pull quotes out of the Koran as if that's really, you know, saying anything. If you prefer not to think, at least be balanced and rant about Jews and their backwards, violent laws, and that those aberrational "peaceful Jews" who don't stone their adulteresses "aren't real Jews."

Or maybe people can keep their religious beliefs, as the Jews have done, yet outgrow the violence which is common in the Torah. Oh, if that's the case, maybe we should stop complaining about Islam and look for the real sources of these problems.

Thanks for popping in and making such a great post, Curiosity. :clap: I really appreciate the support you give whenever it's needed for conversations like this.

The reason I can't stand Islam-bashing, aside from the fact that it is factually and morally wrong, is because I've seen this rhetoric drive people away from Orthodoxy and away from Christ, and I've seen people embrace heretical ideas that have developed in opposition to this kind of behavior. It is sufficient to counter Islam on theological principles alone. Incidental cultural practices, and the incursion of fundamentalist ideas on people who practice a given religion, have no place in serious intellectual discourse on the validity of a religion itself.

So it really hurts me to see Orthodox saying these kinds of things. There's got to be somewhere deep down that all of us know this is wrong, not just people like me. All of you know that I never claimed that Islam is itself a valid religion; that's a painfully ironic accusation if I've ever seen one, as one of the topics I'm considering for a major project essentially calls for me to demonstrate the exact opposite. I understand that it's easier for some people to classify my beliefs in a pre-developed category rather than dealing with me as an individual, but I guess that example just shows what they know.

[repentant]

If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. Deuteronomy 13:7-12

Yeah, look at that evil Islam, with all its decrees to kill non-believers.

Oh wait... this is from the Torah? This is what Jews are supposed to believe? Er... nevermind.

Maybe, just maybe, religious beliefs don't simplistically and mechanically determine the behavior of their adherents. Otherwise, Jews should regularly kill non-Jews and should regularly stone adulteresses and homosexuals.

And maybe if we could realize this, we would understand that terrorism and the atrocities that occur in Muslim Asia are a complex social phenomena that stem from almost innumerable variables of which religion is only one factor. And that unthinkingly linking "Islam" with "violence" is a terrible, terrible mistake, bound to produce no good whatsoever, a mistake that is too reminiscent of the tendency in the 60s to equate being black with being "inferoir" and in the 40s to equate being Jewish with being the source of all of Europe's problems. Perhaps the world is more complex than the simple binaries we prefer.

But I guess it's a lot easier to pull quotes out of the Koran as if that's really, you know, saying anything. If you prefer not to think, at least be balanced and rant about Jews and their backwards, violent laws, and that those aberrational "peaceful Jews" who don't stone their adulteresses "aren't real Jews."

Or maybe people can keep their religious beliefs, as the Jews have done, yet outgrow the violence which is common in the Torah. Oh, if that's the case, maybe we should stop complaining about Islam and look for the real sources of these problems.


The verse you posted says about people who try to preach false god's to you, it does not say kill people who are different then you, which is what Islam says. Can you think of a reason why this is in the OT? Think about it...

[repentant]

Verse 9:123 - "Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you."

Verse 48:29 - "Muhammad is Allah's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another."

Verse 66:9 - "Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites, and deal sternly with them. Hell shall be their home, evil their fate."

5:17 - "Unbelievers are those who declare: 'God is the Messiah, the son of Mary.'" (do we have the same God?)

Verse 4:101 - "The unbelievers are your inveterate foe."

[Orthosdoxa]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to repentant again.

rassum frassum...

it's easier for some people to classify my beliefs in a pre-developed category

Oh, you mean like you do to others? You make so many accusations against others that you will never see that you yourself do. It makes it hard to take you seriously.

And I just got a pm today from someone who thanked me for my posts, saying that your posts appeared to promote Islam and drove her away from Orthodoxy in the past. So you don't hold the moral high card here. Nobody does. I don't hate Muslims. I do hate Islam. It's not a sin to hate a false belief system, but evidently you believe defending it makes you morally superior.

[Vasileios]

I see no reason to defend Islam, after all for 400 years my country was occupied by the Ottomans and the Church suffered greatly under their rule.

However, I think what Matrona and Curiosity are trying to do is to prevent a simplicity being displayed here, that Islam is the source of all evil. I agree with them on that part at least. This is far too convenient to be true.

The arguments against Islam can be made against Christianity and we all know it. We have heard countless times OT verses being quoted to us, the history of the Crusades, the sheer stupidity and total lack of judgement and reason by a lot of Christians etc, etc.

Even Orthodox are not immune. Live in an Orthodox country for a while and you will see that anyone can come up with something bad to say about Orthodoxy even.

So, it can go both ways in that sense. People who blame Christianity in that way obviously have not bothered with Christianity in the first place seriously enough.

Now, I am not saying someone should bother with Islam seriously but I am saying that perhaps the souls of billions of people, their history, their culture, their choices, their countries, their economies cannot be summed up by a few statements on how bad Islam is and how that is the source of all evil.

Perhaps most of you know that Muslims knew Aristotle and Plato and other Greek philosophers way before the Europeans...(apart from us Greeks! :P) There were points in history where the arts, philosophy and science flourished under Muslim states. Therefore it is reasonable to believe that what we see today in Taliban states or Al-Qaeda videos are not the only version of Islam out there.

It is as dangerous to put every soul and civilisation in one bag, even if that is easier. I am afraid that this sentiment is largely due to the current political situation with the West.

I can tell you that we Orthodox here who have spent centuries next to Muslim states (and the Serbs and the Russians I think will probably agree) that we have a hard time choosing who is the worst: Muslims or "Christians". We should know better to blame everything on religion. After all, when Constantinople had to choose between the papist tiara or the Ottoman fesi, she took the second choice. Why was that? They feared the compromise of the Christian faith more than living under the muslim rule.

anyway, this post probably does not make much sense. forgive me.

[Kas]

i'M GLAD THE SERBS HAVE KEPT THERE TEETH, AND i AM ASHAMED THAT SOME CALL ME BRITISH...I'M NOT BRITISH I', CHRISTIAN AND WOULD FIGHT AGAINST AMERICAN AND BRITISH SOILDIERS TOMMOROW IF IT MEANT HELPING THE CHRISTIANS IN SERBIA...CHRISTIANS NEEDS TO REDISCOVER THEIR UNIVERSAL SOLIDARITY AND FIND THEIR BACKBONE AND TAKE THE FIGHT TO ISLAM...IN KOSSOVA...BUT ALSO...EVERYWHERE ELSE...PEACE IS AN ILLUSION, ITS CHRISTIANITY OR NOTHING...

WE CHRISTIANS NEED TO STOP LEANING NATIONALISTIC LIBERAL IDENTITIES AND IDEOLOGIES AND REST COMPLETELY ON THE TEACHINGS OF THE FAITH...AGAINST MOSLEMS, ISLAM AND THEIR AMERICAN AND BRITISH LAPDOGS!

kAS

[Orthosdoxa]

The arguments against Islam can be made against Christianity and we all know it.

Actually, I have an answer for this common but groundless argument, but I'm wearying of this topic. Perhaps later.

cannot be summed up by a few statements on how bad Islam is and how that is the source of all evil.

Oh, come on. No one said that. Be fair.

It is as dangerous to put every soul... in one bag

No one's done that. Perhaps you missed my earlier posts?

I am afraid that this sentiment is largely due to the current political situation with the West.

Wrong again, at least for me. As I said earlier, I've been studying Islam for 15+ years, having taken an interest in HS. The history books I've read lead me to this conclusion long ago.

I do appreciate your reasonable tone, rather than the screechy "KNOWBUDDY IZ AZ SKOLERLEE AS MEEE!" we see on this topic, on this and other threads. I could definitely have a reasonable dialogue with you on this topic. For the moment, though, I've lost interest. Perhaps I'll revisit this in a few days.

Have a good day.

[The Prokeimenon!]

When was the last time a Christian or Jew used one of those violent OT verses as a justification to fly an airplane into a skyscraper or behead an innocent person?

Rdr Moses

[Kas]

I don't remember reading anywhere in the Koran about wife beating being acceptable, though there is parts about wives being obedient to thier husbands..... just like St. Paul's quote. If taken out of content... and missing the part about the husband must love his wife as Christ loves the Church (sacrificially), one might make the same assumption about the Bible.

This does not mean that there is not a problem with domestic violence within the Muslim community. But, it is not because this is what the Koran teaches, but rather, because it is a cultural matter.

When I married a Serbian, I was warned.. I was told "Serbian men beat their wives." My husband is divorced from his first wife. He said when he went to the court for the interview related to the divorce his exwife was asked "did he beat you?" The answer was "no". My husband said a lot of Serbian men do beat their wives, but not all of them, and not the majority either. It is a cultural part of some families.

And we all know, the Bible does not teach men to beat their wives.

Again, I don't agree with Islam. I really don't. I don't want it to take over Kosovo. But I think it is fair to relate information accurately. Just as I don't like it when people say I "worship" icons, I think it is important to be fair to all faiths and try to relate things as they are taught.

That said, I think some clerics in islam might teach that the beating of wives into submission or to punish is part of the faith... in very fundamental groups.

(BTW, I once heard a Pentecostal preacher say that punishing one's wife is a man's duty too and that wives should submit at all times, and especially to that punishment. It doesn't mean Pentecostal's teach wife beating is OK, only that one preacher.)
I don't remember reading anywhere in the Koran about wife beating being acceptable, though there is parts about wives being obedient to thier husbands..... just like St. Paul's quote. If taken out of content... and missing the part about the husband must love his wife as Christ loves the Church (sacrificially), one might make the same assumption about the Bible.


its in there I've read it myself...the quran instructs a man to beat his widfe to discipline her...

[Matrona]

"KNOWBUDDY IZ AZ SKOLERLEE AS MEEE!"

Funny how the only post in this thread written in all-caps was written in agreement with you.

And I just got a pm today from someone who thanked me for my posts, saying that your posts appeared to promote Islam and drove her away from Orthodoxy in the past. So you don't hold the moral high card here. Nobody does. I don't hate Muslims. I do hate Islam. It's not a sin to hate a false belief system, but evidently you believe defending it makes you morally superior.

Anyone who needs clarification on my beliefs is welcome to PM me. I don't promote Islam or any other false religion. What I promote is understanding and relating to Islam as any other religion, instead of painting it as some kind of demonically-sustained super-evil.

[repentant]

Islam is evil, there is no other brush to paint it with. The scaredy cat West (USA, England, France, etc) is so terrified of the Islam extremists* that they must use this difference between the extremists, and the rest of Islam, as not to casue an even worse uprise... Fact is, the extremists are truer to their faith, than the none extremists..

*What is an extremist?

Main Entry: ex·trem·ism
Pronunciation: ik-'strE-"mi-z&m
Function: noun
1 : the quality or state of being extreme
2 : advocacy of extreme measures or views : RADICALISM

So pretty much, Muslim extremists are the Muslims who take the Quran and the religion of Islam to the extreme.

This can be compared to Monks being Orthodox Extremsist. They take Orthodoxy to the extreme, where as the rest of us aren't as extreme. Does that make thier Orthodoxy not Orthodox?

Of course I am not comparing our Holy Monks, to these evil people, juts using the fact that extremist does not mean they are promoting a different Islam..

[EmperorConstantine]

A few thoughts...

My problem is not with Muslims themselves, but with Islam itself.

Even Orthodox are not immune. Live in an Orthodox country for a while and you will see that anyone can come up with something bad to say about Orthodoxy even.
Really? Pardon my ignorance, for I've never been to an Orthodox country, but how come?

When was the last time a Christian or Jew used one of those violent OT verses as a justification to fly an airplane into a skyscraper or behead an innocent person?
I can't help but agree here.

Islam is evil, there is no other brush to paint it with.
That is true. However not every last Muslim is evil.


I've been thinking lately. We all know that Muhammad was a false prophet. We also know that in Eastern culture, helping people is showing hospitality, even journalists that have gone to Muslim countries were astounded that "such oh so horrible people!" could be so helpful even to those that are not Muslim.

Now, we do know of those verses that say "kill the unbelievers!". Here's my thought: is it possible that Muhammad tried to completely change and possibly unite a culture all because he had a deep grudge with Christians? Is it possible that the extremists are just a would-be "perfect Muslim"?

If this is the case, than we'd better get to know the kind-hearted folks real fast.