Interpretation of Daniel 7's little horn

[Your Neighbor]

Who is Daniel 7's little horn?

Daniel 7, New American Bible (Catholic)
1 1 (http://www.nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/daniel/daniel7.htm#foot1) In the first year of King Belshazzar of Babylon, Daniel had a dream as he lay in bed, and was terrified by the visions of his mind. Then he wrote down the dream; the account began: 2 2 (http://www.nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/daniel/daniel7.htm#foot2) In the vision I saw during the night, suddenly the four winds of heaven stirred up the great sea, 3 from which emerged four immense beasts, each different from the others. 4 3 (http://www.nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/daniel/daniel7.htm#foot3) The first was like a lion, but with eagle's wings. While I watched, the wings were plucked; it was raised from the ground to stand on two feet like a man, and given a human mind. 5 4 (http://www.nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/daniel/daniel7.htm#foot4) The second was like a bear; it was raised up on one side, and among the teeth in its mouth were three tusks. It was given the order, "Up, devour much flesh." 6 5 (http://www.nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/daniel/daniel7.htm#foot5) After this I looked and saw another beast, like a leopard; on its back were four wings like those of a bird, and it had four heads. To this beast dominion was given. 7 6 (http://www.nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/daniel/daniel7.htm#foot6) After this, in the visions of the night I saw the fourth beast, different from all the others, terrifying, horrible, and of extraordinary strength; it had great iron teeth with which it devoured and crushed, and what was left it trampled with its feet. 8 I was considering the ten horns it had, when suddenly another, a little horn, sprang out of their midst, and three of the previous horns were torn away to make room for it. This horn had eyes like a man, and a mouth that spoke arrogantly. 9 7 (http://www.nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/daniel/daniel7.htm#foot7) As I watched, Thrones were set up and the Ancient One took his throne. His clothing was snow bright, and the hair on his head as white as wool; His throne was flames of fire, with wheels of burning fire. 10 A surging stream of fire flowed out from where he sat; Thousands upon thousands were ministering to him, and myriads upon myriads attended him. The court was convened, and the books were opened. 11 I watched, then, from the first of the arrogant words which the horn spoke, until the beast was slain and its body thrown into the fire to be burnt up. 12 The other beasts, which also lost their dominion, were granted a prolongation of life for a time and a season. 13 8 (http://www.nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/daniel/daniel7.htm#foot8) As the visions during the night continued, I saw One like a son of man coming, on the clouds of heaven; When he reached the Ancient One and was presented before him, 14 He received dominion, glory, and kingship; nations and peoples of every language serve him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that shall not be taken away, his kingship shall not be destroyed. 15 I, Daniel, found my spirit anguished within its sheath of flesh, and I was terrified by the visions of my mind. 16 I approached one of those present and asked him what all this meant in truth; in answer, he made known to me the meaning of the things: 17 "These four great beasts stand for four kingdoms which shall arise on the earth. 18 But the holy ones of the Most High shall receive the kingship, to possess it forever and ever." 19 But I wished to make certain about the fourth beast, so very terrible and different from the others, devouring and crushing with its iron teeth and bronze claws, and trampling with its feet what was left; 20 about the ten horns on its head, and the other one that sprang up, before which three horns fell; about the horn with the eyes and the mouth that spoke arrogantly, which appeared greater than its fellows. 21 For, as I watched, that horn made war against the holy ones and was victorious 22 until the Ancient One arrived; judgment was pronounced in favor of the holy ones of the Most High, and the time came when the holy ones possessed the kingdom. 23 He answered me thus: "The fourth beast shall be a fourth kingdom on earth, different from all the others; It shall devour the whole earth, beat it down, and crush it. 24 The ten horns shall be ten kings rising out of that kingdom; another shall rise up after them, Different from those before him, who shall lay low three kings. 25 9 (http://www.nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/daniel/daniel7.htm#foot9) He shall speak against the Most High and oppress the holy ones of the Most High, thinking to change the feast days and the law. They shall be handed over to him for a year, two years, and a half-year. 26 But when the court is convened, and his power is taken away by final and absolute destruction, 27 Then the kingship and dominion and majesty of all the kingdoms under the heavens shall be given to the holy people of the Most High, Whose kingdom shall be everlasting: all dominions shall serve and obey him." 28 10 (http://www.nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/daniel/daniel7.htm#foot10) The report concluded: I, Daniel, was greatly terrified by my thoughts, and my face blanched, but I kept the matter to myself.

[Oblio]

Thanks for the query, and welcome to TAW.

I don't know the answer to your question, perhaps someone can help.

[Akathist]

Who is Daniel 7's little horn?


I would say he was a King that came up and won battles against three nations and then later lost his own power. He had a bad disposition from the sounds of things.. (arrogant tongue).

Daniel is where the three Holy Youths came from that we speak of in our Matins service weekly. I actually had never discovered where they came from before this question was asked, thank you.

[Your Neighbor]

Thanks for the query, and welcome to TAW.

I don't know the answer to your question, perhaps someone can help. I admire the honesty. Does someone here know?

Little horn:
Will somehow be responsible for removal or subduing of 3 kings (horns). (Daniel 7:8, 24)
Will speak great words against God (blasphemy). (Daniel 7:8, 20, 25)
Will war against the saints of God and prevail against them. (Daniel 7:25)
Will think to change times and laws. (Daniel 7:25)
Comes up among the 10 horns from the 4th beast (Roman Empire). (Daniel 7:8, 24)
Will arise after the 10 horns which in turn arise after the time represented by the body of the 4th beast. (Daniel 7:8, 24)
Will be different from those before it, which were political powers. (Daniel 7:24)
The saints will be given into his hand until a time and times and dividing of time. (Daniel 7:25)
Will have a look more stout than the other horns and is responsible in some way for the removal of 3 of the original 10, so this strongly suggests that it is more powerful than those around it. (Daniel 7:20, 8, 24)
Will continue to exist until it ultimately is destroyed. (Daniel 7:11, 26)

[kamikat]

looks like it might be the anti-christ. In which case, we make no predictions on who it will be.

[Kristos]

Where have you looked? I'm guessing there is some sort of Patristic commentary on this...

[Simon_Templar]

The little horn of Daniel 7 bears a striking resemblance to the 1st beast in Revelation 13. My guess is that they are one and the same. Or at least they both refer in part to a man who will arise at the end. He will be a gentile, probably bearing some sort of connection to the ancient roman empire.

For the 10 horns, these are also spoken of in Revelation 17. They represent ten kings who are given power for a short time. It is possible that rather than ten individual kingdoms, they could be some sort of ruling council, maybe of a multinational body or some such thing. The little horn displaces 3 of the ten and then exalts himself.

[ma2000]

I've read somewhere... I wish I'd remember where... that the beasts are ancient empires... The last one is the Roman Empire and the horn a Roman king. (or so they said in there)

Hope it helps.

[Akathist]

I've read somewhere... I wish I'd remember where... that the beasts are ancient empires... The last one is the Roman Empire and the horn a Roman king. (or so they said in there)

Hope it helps.

In trying to find the answer I also found vague references that the Orthodox view this as ancient empires. The problem is that the sources are not EO sources so I didn't want to quote them.

[ma2000]

I've searched about it.... I didn't find any "official" Orthodox stance. The ones I found were connected to the beast in the Apocalipse.
I've also found the view with the ancient empires, but on non-orthodox sites.

[Your Neighbor]

Do Orthodox agree with this from Daniel 2?

http://www.remnantofgod.org/dan2-timeidol.jpg

And this of Daniel 7?
http://www.sabbathtruth.com/images/who_changed/afsg15-2.jpghttp://www.sabbathtruth.com/images/who_changed/afsg15-3.jpghttp://www.sabbathtruth.com/images/who_changed/afsg15-4.jpghttp://www.sabbathtruth.com/images/who_changed/afsg15-5.jpg
I am quite surprised at the responses given thus far. There seems to be a great need in understanding these prophecies.

I am here to learn what Orthodox teach about this.

[kamikat]

We don't really focus on prophecies of this nature.

[Oblio]

The dates for Rome seem to be wrong as it overlaps the conversion of St. Constantine.

[Simon_Templar]

The dates for Rome are listed to the fall of the western empire with the last emperor as Romulus Agustolus.

The dates listed are given as they are the accepted times of those empire's 'golden age' or period of power. However, the prophecy, if carefuly read, indicates that all of the beasts are still present at the end when the Kingdom of heaven comes and takes away their dominion.

It is likely that they not only symbolize the ancient empires which would dominate the earth, but also the spiritual principalities which drove those nations and which still exist.

[xristos.anesti]

This question seems to be related to Seventh Day Adventist understanding of Daniel and Revelation. They base their evangelisation on these two books - that is, have lot of fancy mathematics that blind people who are not experts in history, and using these they show to the people that, ultimately, they (SDA) are the true church and that everyone else will allign with antichrist and, consequently, perish.

The picture(s) presented above is(are) the same as the one(s) given by this group in their evangelisations.

Maybe some other groups use the same pictures and methodology, but to me - a former adventist - this walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

As far as the question is concerned - the Church has never measured time and calculated the day of arrival (which these theories ultimately lead to) as it is not a thing that was suggested to be done, quite the contrary - these theories about Daniel lead into the SDA "great controversy" theory that SDA uses to prove their theology.

As I said above - a lot of fancy mathematics that to the uniformed seems to be ultimate proof of SDA correctness.

Before you know it - you accept it and... well one can just imagine.

So, the question is not something Orthodox think about.

We do not measure time.

ICXC
NIKA

[Shubunkin]

I think the JWs have a similar view of the End Times. I even have one of their books, but ultimately with all of the fancy exegesis and having one book of the Bible interpret the other parts, especially Revelation, there are a lot of things that can go wrong with that type of thing. I believe those horns represent ancient kingdoms, and has nothing to do with our future. I do not know what the Orthodox belief is on this, yet, but I am interested in learning. All I know is one can be led down the garden path with such studies. So buyer beware. If anyone has the answers to this, it would the Orthodox. :)

[Simon_Templar]

This question seems to be related to Seventh Day Adventist understanding of Daniel and Revelation. They base their evangelisation on these two books - that is, have lot of fancy mathematics that blind people who are not experts in history, and using these they show to the people that, ultimately, they (SDA) are the true church and that everyone else will allign with antichrist and, consequently, perish.

The picture(s) presented above is(are) the same as the one(s) given by this group in their evangelisations.

Maybe some other groups use the same pictures and methodology, but to me - a former adventist - this walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

As far as the question is concerned - the Church has never measured time and calculated the day of arrival (which these theories ultimately lead to) as it is not a thing that was suggested to be done, quite the contrary - these theories about Daniel lead into the SDA "great controversy" theory that SDA uses to prove their theology.

As I said above - a lot of fancy mathematics that to the uniformed seems to be ultimate proof of SDA correctness.

Before you know it - you accept it and... well one can just imagine.

So, the question is not something Orthodox think about.

We do not measure time.

ICXC
NIKA
I'm not an adventist, nor have I ever been. But I can tell you that these ideas did not originate with the SDA. At most the latched onto them and began using them.

Charts like the one shown are pretty common to virtually every evangelical protestant denomination.

I assume with the calculation of dates you are referring to the 70 weeks prophecy of Daniel chapter 9. The interpetation which involves figuring out the times and thus showing that daniel fortold the day of Christ's triumphal entry are pretty amazing. They in no way show any denomination is the correct one. They simply show that God gave daniel a prophecy which fortold the coming of the messiah.

As Jesus said, lamenting over Jerusalem "if you had but known your time". They should have known their time because God told them exactly when it was coming.

Perhaps the SDA try to use stuff like this for their own ends, but they didn't come up with it, and they don't own it by any means.

[Shubunkin]

Well I was told by my SF that the Orthodox Church is basically Amillenialism, and he had listened to another priest talk about the end times. He said that he is a "pan-millenialist" which means when the end times comes, it will all "pan out" somehow! Okay, I agree with that!! ;)

[Your Neighbor]

We don't really focus on prophecies of this nature. One may not need to "focus." But, is this an admission that Orthodox ignore prophecy?

[Your Neighbor]

The dates for Rome seem to be wrong as it overlaps the conversion of St. Constantine. But do you have an understanding that the 4 kingdoms that are specifically ponited out are indeed, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and then Rome? Are not these the 4 world empires described in Daniel 2 and Daniel 7?

[Oblio]

I have no such understanding. My point was, that IF it were Rome, then the dates were incorrect, because the Rome that would be listed in your hypothetical interpretation would not be the Holy Roman Empire. IOW, at best, the end date should coincide with Rome being Christianized.

[Your Neighbor]

This question seems to be related to Seventh Day Adventist understanding of Daniel and Revelation. No. It has nothing to do with SDA's or JW's. This is a prophecy from God! It was given to Daniel the Prophet in the Old Testament! Why should there be no actual fulfillment?

[Oblio]

One may not need to "focus." But, is this an admission that Orthodox ignore prophecy?

No.

I've read the Major and Minor Prophets Liturgically in church many times. Isaiah in particular is read heavily during Lent.

[Your Neighbor]

Simon_Templar, I came to this forum to ask Orthodox, not Anglicans. Please take no offense, but I'm interested in their opinion.

[Oblio]

No. It has nothing to do with SDA's or JW's. This is a prophecy from God! It was given to Daniel the Prophet in the Old Testament! Why should there be no actual fulfillment?

Perhaps not, but at least one ex-SDA recognized the tract photos as SDA. If I may ask, what is your church affiliation ?

[Oblio]

Our Creed states of the Holy Spirit:

... Who spoke by the Prophets ...

[Your Neighbor]

... another priest talk about the end times.... This is not merely "end times"! This covers HISTORY. From the time of Babylon continuously until v. 27 - "the kingship and dominion and majesty of all the kingdoms under the heavens shall be given to the holy people of the Most High."

See below:

[Oblio]

Neighbor,

I will remind you as a member of TAW (and an Orthodox Christian) that you may ask sincere questions of our faith.

Preaching, arguing, debating, and proselytizing is frowned upon.

[Your Neighbor]

21 For, as I watched, that horn made war against the holy ones and was victorious 22 until the Ancient One arrived; judgment was pronounced in favor of the holy ones of the Most High, and the time came when the holy ones possessed the kingdom. 23 He answered me thus: "The fourth beast shall be a fourth kingdom on earth, different from all the others; It shall devour the whole earth, beat it down, and crush it. 24 The ten horns shall be ten kings rising out of that kingdom; another shall rise up after them, Different from those before him, who shall lay low three kings. 25 He shall speak against the Most High and oppress the holy ones of the Most High, thinking to change the feast days and the law. They shall be handed over to him for a year, two years, and a half-year. 26 But when the court is convened, and his power is taken away by final and absolute destruction,27 Then the kingship and dominion and majesty of all the kingdoms under the heavens shall be given to the holy people of the Most High, Whose kingdom shall be everlasting: all dominions shall serve and obey him." 28 The report concluded: I, Daniel, was greatly terrified by my thoughts, and my face blanched, but I kept the matter to myself.

[VickiY]

Neighbour,

The Orthodox do not speculate and form their own opinions on things. What people here are trying to tell you is that the subject has never come up in enough of a manner to make any of us ask what the Orthodox Church believes about it. You will not get answers from any of us speculating on things we do not know the Church's position on. I suggest that if the matter truly interests you, you should e-mail an Orthodox Theologian and ask.

Not trying to be harsh, but we don't form individual interpretations of things.

[Your Neighbor]

Neighbor,

I will remind you as a member of TAW (and an Orthodox Christian) that you may ask sincere questions of our faith.

Preaching, arguing, debating, and proselytizing is frowned upon.I plan no preaching, arguing, debating, or proselytizing here. I simply want to know, even if I have to prod, what is your position on specific verses in Daniel 7. That's all.

[RobNJ]

I plan no preaching, arguing, debating, or proselytizing here. I simply want to know, even if I have to prod, what is your position on specific verses in Daniel 7. That's all.


That , as with everything else in the cosmos, it will happen according to God's will, at the time of God's choosing. How & when this will be, is not our place to speculate.

[Oblio]

Our position is as Vicky stated. We do not read Scripture and formulate 'what it means', and certainly not dogmatically. If we were to do so, there would be a myriad of Orthodox denominations that would dwarf Protestants in number. We believe what the Church has always believed.

[Shubunkin]

This is not merely "end times"! This covers HISTORY. From the time of Babylon continuously until v. 27 - "the kingship and dominion and majesty of all the kingdoms under the heavens shall be given to the holy people of the Most High."

See below:



Not according to the JW book I own... but yes, that is another topic... this vision of Daniel does prefigure the end times according to them. I did not mean to get off topic, but by the way this thread was going, it seemed to be.

[Shubunkin]

Our position is as Vicky stated. We do not read Scripture and formulate 'what it means', and certainly not dogmatically. If we were to do so, there would be a myriad of Orthodox denominations that would dwarf Protestants in number. We believe what the Church has always believed.
If the Church Fathers were not thoroughly consumed by these prophecies (in this sense) then why should we be... is the idea I get. Is this correct? I am here to learn, too. :)

[xristos.anesti]

The prophecies are not something that Church deals with in this way... If no father ever dealt with Daniel in such way, there is a reason for it.

If it was important for the Church, someone would have wrote about it.

That is beside point, what is the point here is that no-one saw these verses to mean this until 200 years ago, just like any other thing that was borne 200 years ago THE Church is a little bit cautious about it. This is because it is not what we believed since the early time.

So, as an asnwer on your question - if not seeing those verses the way you do means that we ignore it - then yes, we do ignore them.

Or even if we see it the very same way, which I doubt, the fact that no-one here has any idea about it means that - honestly - it does not represent a high priority in Orthodox theological thought.

Many years.

[Simon_Templar]

Simon_Templar, I came to this forum to ask Orthodox, not Anglicans. Please take no offense, but I'm interested in their opinion.
yes, but they've given you their opinion, and you don't seem to be listening, or you don't seem satisfied... if all you want is their opinion, you have it. Why keep pressing them then?

[buzuxi02]

'There shall rise together ten kings of the romans, reigning in different parts perhaps, but all about the same time , and after these an eleventh, the antichrist, who by his magical craft shall seize upon the roman power, and of the kings who reigned before him, three he shall humble, and the remaining seven he shall keep in subjection for himself." -St Cyril of Jerusalem

In hindsight the kings mentioned in Rev 17.10 (and most likely explains the 10 kings and the one little horn of daniel)most likely refer to Augustus thru Nero (first 5 emperors).

The 'one who is' may refer to Vespasian who was the emperor of Rome when he ordered his son Titus to destroy the temple in 70 a.d.

The seventh may represent Titus himself who succeeded his father Vespasian as emperor upon his death. And the eighth was Domitian who was the son of Vespasian and younger brother of Titus. Domitian was the one who was emperor during the writing of the book of Revelation and exiled St. John to Patmos .

Whats interesting is that between Nero and Vespasian there were 3 emperors that only lasted a combined of 18 months , all dying in tragic circumstances:

Galba- mordered by Otho
Otho- committed suicide
Vitellius- murdered by Vespasian's forces after his capture during the short civil war for the throne of Rome

This would make a total of 11 kings, of which 3 were 'uprooted'
here is a list of the roman caesars:

List of Roman Emperors - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Roman_Emperors)

[Akathist]

The Orthodox way of thinking is very different then the western Christian (non Catholic, non Orthodox Christian). When "Sola Scriptura" was introduced in the West, the need for analysis of everything with a firm definition of what things meant and coordinating every aspect of the bible with itself began. Various opinions were developed in the West about such matters and were shared down through the years.

The East (EOC) apparently has not felt the need to address Daniel 7's horn prophesy... I suspect this is because we felt no need to justify an antiCatholic agenda by trying to demonstrate who they think is the antiChrist. We simply do not buy into this agenda.

Nevertheless, the Book of Daniel is a very important book to us Orthodox. See my comment above about the Three Holy Youths ... literally every single week in one or more services we quote from the book of Daniel in reference to these young martyrs. There is also prophsey from Daniel about the "Son of Man" reference used by Christ.

Prophesy related directly to Christ is especially important to us.

However, we do not feel that everything needs to be clearly defined. We leave a lot to mystery. The discussion of the end times is one of them. We don't interpret Revelation in the same way as most of the Western Christians (again, I am referring to nonCatholic and nonOrthodox... what we would call "protestants".)

The end of days is something we are taught to expect at any time and we pray all the time that we would not be found idle and not ready for Christ's second coming. But we don't believe it is our place to try to predict when this would happen.

We also have no reason to try to proove who is the "antiChrist" that is something that is done usually as an antiCatholic arguement (IMO). We read the bible differently and dont' feel the need to focus on such matters as who is the antichrist, when this or that spiritual battle took place and when will the next one, etc etc. Instead, our interpretation focuses on our picking up our Crosses and following Christ.

When I briefly asked a Priest (not mine, another who I spoke with briefly) about Daniel 7 he said: "What does that have to do with the price of tea in China? If it is not about your salvation, there is not much reason to focus on it."

[Your Neighbor]

That , as with everything else in the cosmos, it will happen according to God's will, at the time of God's choosing. I would think all Christians can agree. How & when this will be, is not our place to speculate. OK. Fine. I understand your position. But, do you really consider it speculating when finding the past fulfillment of what God has already told us would come to pass? A principle of this is found in St. John's Gospel, chapter 14:29 - "And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe."

[Your Neighbor]

If it was important for the Church, someone would have wrote about it.

I certainly now know your position.
But I think somebody inspired by God has written about it. God inspired Daniel to have that dream of ch. 7 and he recorded it in scripture. That is beside point, what is the point here is that no-one saw these verses to mean this until 200 years ago...

Daniel 12
9 He said, "Go your way, Daniel, for these words are concealed and sealed up until the end time.
10 "Many will be purged, purified and refined, but the wicked will act wickedly; and none of the wicked will understand, but those who have insight will understand.


I see that the purpose for my thread has been achieved. I now know your position. You don't have insight about what the little horn in Daniel 7 is.

That last inspired statement in red is a fact. I hope EO will understand...

[Your Neighbor]

This thread can be closed, as far as I am concerned, TAW moderators. Thanks for fielding my questions.

[xristos.anesti]

You are being dishonest, you stated that this has nothing to do with SDA and there it is in your signature, word by word taken from Ellen G White, a quote from “her” book Desire of ages. I know no-one who is a non-SDA who will quote from this plagiariser – except maybe a Reformed SDA or Reformed Reformed SDA.

You can not honestly expect an honest answer whilst being dishonest.

Many years.

[Your Neighbor]

You are being dishonest, you stated that this has nothing to do with SDA and there it is in your signature, word by word taken from Ellen G White, a quote from “her” book Desire of ages. I know no-one who is a non-SDA who will quote from this plagiariser – except maybe a Reformed SDA or Reformed Reformed SDA.

You can not honestly expect an honest answer whilst being dishonest.

Many years.Don't accuse me of dishonesty! "This" (this thread) has to do with the E . Orthodox interpretation of Daniel 7's little horn. Don't change this into what another church believes. I'm not asking what another church believes, and I am not telling you what I believe about the little horn in this thread, either.

(I happen to agree with the message in my signature. Should I start another thread asking EO if you think Christ cannot overcome sins in a contrite soul, too?)

[kamikat]

I think we've had enough of this thread. The OP's question has been answered.