Hmm Basic Ideas?

[Salamon]

Hello all! I am going on a missions trip to Montenegro soon and was told that I should learn about Eastern Orthodox since it is very prevalent over there. So if you dont mind can you all share the basic ideas and principles associated with Eastern Orthodox? I dont really know much about it so anything will be helpful!

[EmperorConstantine]

Is this to know things out of sincere curiosity or to use as ammo for gaining converts?

[Jacob4707]

We had someone come on this forum a couple months ago with the exact same question - i.e., he was going to Moldova or some other Orthodox country, and wanted to learn about Orthodoxy - but his intent was to go as a Protestant evangelist/missionary there, and he started "preaching" to people here at TAW about what "the gospel is." It eventually developed into a genuine conversation here, so I hope he went away from TAW with a desire to learn about these other "Christians" and Orthodoxy instead of continue on his "mission" to "save" people who are already Christians.

[Salamon]

Hey yall thanks for taking interest in this thread! I am genuinely curious I like to know about everything I come in contact with and what the people stances are. As you saw or can see by my icon I am Calvinist and do not necessarily agree with everything Eastern Orthodox teaches, but I believe that if someone asks me where I stand on something and they are Eastern Orthodox I want to be able to talk to them about it! If yall dont want to share that is fine. I really dont mind but I am still trying to find out about it and I thought the Eastern Orthodox site on CF could help!

[Akathist]

Hey yall thanks for taking interest in this thread! I am genuinely curious I like to know about everything I come in contact with and what the people stances are. As you saw or can see by my icon I am Calvinist and do not necessarily agree with everything Eastern Orthodox teaches, but I believe that if someone asks me where I stand on something and they are Eastern Orthodox I want to be able to talk to them about it! If yall dont want to share that is fine. I really dont mind but I am still trying to find out about it and I thought the Eastern Orthodox site on CF could help!

First, why would you waste your time doing missionary work with Christians?

Second, you surely would Never give ANY indication here at CF that Eastern Orthodox are not Christian, Right?

Third, I think if you want to know something about Eastern Orthodox and your motives are pure... that is you view us all as Christians then why advertise to us that you are going to try to convert our brothers and sisters as a missionary?

Ask some specific questions and even though I am not pleased with your clear motives, I will answer but only specific questions, I will not try to write a book explaining things to you, but I will give you honest answers.

[Salamon]

I would rather you not tell me how to divert people away from Eastern Orthodoxy I would rather you just help me to understand what it is! I dont want to start a debate here just because I asked about what you believe is the truth! I would rather just get the info somewhere else if that is the case. But every man and woman should be able and more than willing to explain what they believe to others! If they are not then are they fulfilling their duty as Christians?

[Philothei]

Hey yall thanks for taking interest in this thread! I am genuinely curious I like to know about everything I come in contact with and what the people stances are. As you saw or can see by my icon I am Calvinist and do not necessarily agree with everything Eastern Orthodox teaches, but I believe that if someone asks me where I stand on something and they are Eastern Orthodox I want to be able to talk to them about it! If yall dont want to share that is fine. I really dont mind but I am still trying to find out about it and I thought the Eastern Orthodox site on CF could help!
What she said and some more. What excatly do you want to know that you cannot obtain from the internet Go to www.goarch.com (http://www.goarch.com) and you will find all that you need.... we cannot possibly give you all dogma, beliefs and history of the One, catholic and apostolic Church that its history starts since 33 AD, contrary to Calvinistic theology.....that developed since 1500s.

I pray you find the true Church in Montenegro. One my friends was Nazarene and convered to Orthodoxy in a mission trip to Russia :) .... God's speed and


God bless,
Philothei

[Salamon]

:confused: Ok that was weird the post before changed by the time I posted my last one:confused:

So like suggested in the last post by Akathist I will ask specific questions. If you dont like them please let me know and I will delete or not post them. Please remember I know nothing of Eastern Orthodoxy so please dont take any offence to anything I post.

So what would you say if I asked you "How can I be saved" what do you believe is the way to salvation?

[EmperorConstantine]

I would rather you not tell me how to divert people away from Eastern Orthodoxy I would rather you just help me to understand what it is! I dont want to start a debate here just because I asked about what you believe is the truth! I would rather just get the info somewhere else if that is the case. But every man and woman should be able and more than willing to explain what they believe to others! If they are not then are they fulfilling their duty as Christians?
Well, since you are not on a proselytizing mission...

Ask away. Popular questions include history, schism and do you do ______ type of questions.

[Salamon]

What she said and some more. What excatly do you want to know that you cannot obtain from the internet Go to www.goarch.com (http://www.goarch.com) and you will find all that you need.... we cannot possibly give you all dogma, beliefs and history of the One, catholic and apostolic Church that its history starts since 33 AD, contrary to Calvinistic theology.....that developed since 1500s.

I pray you find the true Church in Montenegro. One my friends was Nazarene and convered to Orthodoxy in a mission trip to Russia :) .... God's speed and


God bless,
Philothei

Thanks for the web site I will check it out maybe it can answer some of my questions!!:)

[EmperorConstantine]

www.oca.org is also an excellent source!

[Akathist]

I would rather you not tell me how to divert people away from Eastern Orthodoxy I would rather you just help me to understand what it is! I dont want to start a debate here just because I asked about what you believe is the truth! I would rather just get the info somewhere else if that is the case. But every man and woman should be able and more than willing to explain what they believe to others! If they are not then are they fulfilling their duty as Christians?

Ok, well, you asked for it.

Here is the beliefs of the Eastern Orthodox Church as written by men who was in charge of this Church beginning in the middle 300's A.D. from information they learned from previous leaders who in turn learned directly from the Apostles:

We believe in ONE God, Father
Almighty,
Maker of Heaven and Earth, and of all things visible and invisible.
And in ONE Lord Jesus Christ,
Son of God,
Only-Begotten,
Begotten of the Father before all ages.
Light from Light;
True God from True God; Begotten, not made; of one essence with the Father
through whom all things were made;
Who for us men and for our salvation
came down from heaven, and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary and became man.
And He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, suffered,
and was buried. And on the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven,
and sits at the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again with glory
to judge the living and the dead; Whose Kingdom shall have no end.

And in the Holy Spirit,
Lord, Giver of Life,
Who proceeds from the Father ;
Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified;
Who spoke through the prophets.

In one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.

I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. I look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life in the age to come.

AMEN.


This statement of our beliefs is so important to us that we recite it every Sunday in our services and every day in our homes when we say our prayers.

If there is something said above that you think warrents conversion away from I would be interested in your sending me a pm explaining it to me. This way you are not debating publically.

Before you go to Montenagro, I strongly recommend that you visit a local Orthodox Church on a Sunday morning and experience our worship. That way, you will really know something about us, for reading about us tells you nearly nothing.

To find a local Orthodox Church go to this website: http://orthodoxyinamerica.org/

(BTW that website has excellent beginner information about Orthodoxy too.)

[Philothei]

I am happy to help. Preferably it is better to read and get some ideas and then ask your questions. Also to get a better picture try to get to a church and attend services and make appointment with a priest. Our faith is more "experiential" than anything else. It is the kind of faith you experience by using your 5 senses.

God bless,
Philothei

[Philothei]

Sorry EC that is the site that came to my mind did not mean not to include the OCA church :( I apologize if I have not included others maybe you all can suggest more sites.

P.

[Salamon]

To find a local Orthodox Church go to this website: http://orthodoxyinamerica.org/

(BTW that website has excellent beginner information about Orthodoxy too.)

This has allot of information on it Thanks!!

[EmperorConstantine]

Sorry EC that is the site that came to my mind did not mean not to include the OCA church :( I apologize if I have not included others maybe you all can suggest more sites.

P.
No problem!

At least it was posted. :)

[jckstraw72]

just throwing this out there -- a missions trip doesnt necessarily mean preaching and what not. it can meet feeding the poor, repairing facilities, etc.

[EmperorConstantine]

just throwing this out there -- a missions trip doesnt necessarily mean preaching and what not. it can meet feeding the poor, repairing facilities, etc.
Ah well. We still remember what's-his-face from before going to Moldova.

[Akathist]

just throwing this out there -- a missions trip doesnt necessarily mean preaching and what not. it can meet feeding the poor, repairing facilities, etc.

Yet, Montenagro is not in that bad a shape. They were not hit by NATO, and I don't think they were damaged by the Kosovo or Croatia wars. My memory might not be good, but I understood that when they parted from Serbia the word was that they were in good shape over all.

We have a lot of very poor people in the United States. I wish more mission trips would be spent right here.

[Oblio]

Welcome to TAW :)

If you are sincere, (and I suspect you are), my guess is that you will eventually become Orthodox after visiting here or abroad. Many converts come to the Church just as you have started your journey. May God grant you what is profitable for your soul.

[Salamon]

just throwing this out there -- a missions trip doesnt necessarily mean preaching and what not. it can meet feeding the poor, repairing facilities, etc.

You are right. We are going to reach lost people (not saying that those lost are Eastern Orthodox) But we will also be on a mission of mercy serving and helping people with repairs to houses and other physical labor.

[Oblio]

Have you thought about helping the local Churches ?

After all, they know the language and culture of the people, and they are Christian :) And they will be there after you leave.

[EmperorConstantine]

We have a lot of very poor people in the United States. I wish more mission trips would be spent right here.
I think it is sad that the homeless population is greater than that of Canada which is roughly 40 million people.

You are right. We are going to reach lost people (not saying that those lost are Eastern Orthodox) But we will also be on a mission of mercy serving and helping people with repairs to houses and other physical labor.
Oh good! People do need help everywhere. Please keep an open mind when there concerning people's beliefs.

[Oblio]

IIRC Reformed/Calvinists aren't too keen on icons. That being the case, you might consider putting an Orthodox prayer rope in their care packages. It will help feed their soul, and not offend your sensibilities.

[EmperorConstantine]

Saying Christ is Risen! In Slavonic or Serbian will just make the local grandmas ecstatic. Assuming it will be Pascha season when you're going.

Many things that Protestants do not like, they don't like because the Roman Catholics did it. Orthodox have reasons for doing things the way we do. We have icons for a reason, priests for a reason, confession for a reason etc etc. Many Protestants are told all are "un-Biblical" and full of "Catholic heresy" but hearing why things are done from people who practice it is different from just hearing the automatic heresy. Basically, you need a new point of view.

[zhilan]

I don't understand. Are you trying to convert Orthodox people? I haven't seen a clear yes or no answer here yet.

[EmperorConstantine]

I don't understand. Are you trying to convert Orthodox people? I haven't seen a clear yes or no answer here yet.
Most of me is assuming no... but then again, I've not heard the entire truth before...

[Oblio]

If not in the Pentecostarion, can he just say 'Clinton is the spawn of satan' in Serbian :idea:

[Akathist]

If not in the Pentecostarion, can he just say 'Clinton is the spawn of satan' in Serbian :idea:

^_^ ^_^ ^_^

I wished I had learned that phrase before going to Serbia for my visit there!

I had so many people come up to me and say: "Thank you for the bombs."

I was so unprepared for that. I just always said "I am sorry." (or I said that, my then fiancee interpreted, it is hard to say what he said I said.)

[Akathist]

Have you thought about helping the local Churches ?

After all, they know the language and culture of the people, and they are Christian :) And they will be there after you leave.

You know that is the best idea I have seen in ages and ages. The local churches would also know who was in the most need of help and maybe they would have good interpretors. Plus, they could use the resources provided long after the mission trip ended!

[Oblio]

I remember one of my first conversations on Mt. Athos with an elderly Papou, the only English he could stammer after he was informed I was from the US was: [pounding fists on table and scowling] 'Bush, BOOM, BOOM ... Bush, BOOM BOOM'

[Philothei]

I remember one of my first conversations on Mt. Athos with an elderly Papou, the only English he could stammer after he was informed I was from the US was: [pounding fists on table and scowling] 'Bush, BOOM, BOOM ... Bush, BOOM BOOM'
lol.... lol... Now I can go to sleep smiling Oblio thank you.

I love this kind of communication. I can see the pappou actually doing that too ^_^

P.

[ufonium2]

Can I make a suggestion? Eastern Kentucky. There are plenty of poor people, substandard housing, etc., and more importantly plenty of people who need church. And they speak English. And it's close enough that you could build a meaningful relationship with the community, rather than a kind of "drive-by" missionary work you would do halfway around the world with people you'll never see again.

[RobNJ]

If not in the Pentecostarion, can he just say 'Clinton is the spawn of satan' in Serbian :idea:



^_^

[Guineverelyndy]

To the OP: I'm a former Calvinist in the process of converting to Orthodoxy. I think there are a few others here as well. I wouldn't be able to answer your questions as well as the others because I'm still learning, but I do understand the perspective you're coming from. ;)

[Kristos]

Before we become too critical of another doing mission work, shouldn't we first look at ourselves. I would have to say that we (Orthodox) are light years behind Protestants in the mission field. It's almost sinful I would say. One day a year we take a collection for missionaries, and then we go back to our building project, our icon painting project or whatever. My parish does not even have Missions in their budget! Why should the mortgage surpase the Mission?

[kamikat]

So what would you say if I asked you "How can I be saved" what do you believe is the way to salvation?
Sorry that everyone seems a little defensive. We've had a rash of people coming to TAW with not so pleasant motives.
To answer this question directly, we believe you must put your trust in Christ, pick up your cross (meaning struggle to turn away from your passions, ie besetting sins) and follow Him throughout your life and persevere through to the end of your days. We don't believe salvation is a one time event, but a daily choice to follow His teachings. As the saying goes, we are saved (on the original day of Resurrection), we are being saved (by our daily choice to live for God) and we will be saved (upon our earthly death).

[Guineverelyndy]

From what I understand, the Orthodox concept of salvation is not entirely different from what drives the Calvinist need for "the persistence of the saints." But while a Calvinist will say that real faith will endure to the end, and that is the sign of a true Christian, an Orthodox believer would say that real faith MUST endure to the end and they don't judge.

Am I saying that right?

[choirfiend]

Yes, because there is no predestination, so it's not like someone just HAS real faith and therefore MUST persevere til the end.

[Petronius]

Well,

Helping materially is good everywhere in the world, see New Orleans catastrophy. In Montenegro is little need to help materially or spiritually. You may find eventually that the incomes in USD are not that big, but you may also notice that the level of prices is also significantly lower so the purchase power of the population is adequate.
If you want to help really, go to Darfour, go to Burma, go to Haiti.
Good luck !

[Simon_Templar]

I remember one of my first conversations on Mt. Athos with an elderly Papou, the only English he could stammer after he was informed I was from the US was: [pounding fists on table and scowling] 'Bush, BOOM, BOOM ... Bush, BOOM BOOM'
Not that I care to defend Bush or Clinton. And for the record I was against US military involvement in kosovo and serbia etc.

However, I find it somewhat... ironic.... that people who have been engaged in ongoing ethnic war and slaughter for at least 500 years, in which both sides have committed terrible atrocities and genocides, feel self-righteous enough to criticize american intervention.

My reasons for being against intervention were that I didn't think we could do any good. We aren't going to end over 500 years of blood feud by a NATO 'peace keeping' mission. However, I also don't think the parties who have been intermittantly slaughtering each other for 500 years have a real moral high ground from which to object.

my first thought in response to the "thank you for the bombs" comment was that I would have replied "for those who no longer have voices, thank you for the genocide".

[Akathist]

Before we become too critical of another doing mission work, shouldn't we first look at ourselves. I would have to say that we (Orthodox) are light years behind Protestants in the mission field. It's almost sinful I would say. One day a year we take a collection for missionaries, and then we go back to our building project, our icon painting project or whatever. My parish does not even have Missions in their budget! Why should the mortgage surpase the Mission?


Actually the Orthodox Church does a not of missions work. If your parish needs to improve this that is great. However, we are not "light years behind Protestants in the mission field" by any stretch. Their "mission" is to take people out of our Chruch were we find our salvation and they pretend they are doing "humanitarian work" to do so.

When the Eastern Orthodox do mission work it is with the intention of actually helping people in a nonjudgemental manner.... or reaching out to our own to teach them more about their own faith.... never to use manipulations to get people to walk away from where they worship and how they worship.

I was trained to do "evangelical work" when I was a Pentecostal (Independent Trinitarian) but the training was at a local Southern Baptist Church. When I think about the methods people are going to be using on my brothers and sisters in their "mission work" my skin crawls.

[Dust and Ashes]

Our new priest, at St. Paul Orthodox :liturgy: Mission :preach: Station, was one of the Campus Crusade folks who came East with Fr. Peter Gillquist. He told me that he and many others were asked to go on a mission to some Orthodox countries after the Soviet Union fell. They went and worked with the local Churches to help them prepare for the Evangelical missionaries who were chomping at the bit to get into the former Soviet Union.

He said they specifically asked for converts because they know Protestant theology and could be more effective in teaching how to counter Evangelical arguments. I would LOVE to get involved in something like this, myself.

[NyssaTheHobbit]

I was trained to do "evangelical work" when I was a Pentecostal (Independent Trinitarian) but the training was at a local Southern Baptist Church. When I think about the methods people are going to be using on my brothers and sisters in their "mission work" my skin crawls.

What methods are those? Just out of curiosity....

[Salamon]

Thank you all!! You have overwhelmed me with information! It will take awhile to read all of it. If I have any questions I will come back and ask! Thank you so very much! God bless, Chris

[xristos.anesti]

...

[Kristos]

Actually the Orthodox Church does a not of missions work. If your parish needs to improve this that is great. However, we are not "light years behind Protestants in the mission field" by any stretch. Their "mission" is to take people out of our Chruch were we find our salvation and they pretend they are doing "humanitarian work" to do so.

When the Eastern Orthodox do mission work it is with the intention of actually helping people in a nonjudgemental manner.... or reaching out to our own to teach them more about their own faith.... never to use manipulations to get people to walk away from where they worship and how they worship.

I was trained to do "evangelical work" when I was a Pentecostal (Independent Trinitarian) but the training was at a local Southern Baptist Church. When I think about the methods people are going to be using on my brothers and sisters in their "mission work" my skin crawls.
Not really.

[Shubunkin]

To understand Orthodoxy you really need to read up on Church history as well. :) In my opinion.... that helped me, anyway.

[Akathist]

Not really.

please back that up with some information.

Here is my evidence to pack up what I said, and here you can clearly see that the goal is not to convert protestants to Eastern Orthodoxy with this mission work: http://www.iocc.org/


In seeking to provide assistance to the poor, either in response to emergencies or long term socio-economic development needs, IOCC's fundamental policy is to develop a sustainable indigenous capacity to carry out such programs. All programs are guided by the two goals of program integrity and the highest standards of stewardship to donors.
Overseas offices are established by IOCC when, and if, the Orthodox hierarchy of the country in question have made a request; if there is a need to use IOCC skills to enhance the capacity of the Church and other institutions to reach the poor more effectively; and if the scale of the program requires an on-site presence to monitor targeting of beneficiaries, program implementation and reporting.
IOCC's mandate is to undertake purely humanitarian activities.

IOCC Mission Statement
International Orthodox Christian Charities Inc. (IOCC) was established by the Standing Conference of Canonical Orthodox Bishops in the Americas (SCOBA) as the official humanitarian aid agency of Orthodox Christians to work in cooperation with the Orthodox Churches worldwide.
The mission of IOCC is to respond to the call of our Lord Jesus Christ, to minister to those who are suffering and are in need throughout the world, sharing with them God's gifts of food, shelter, economic self-sufficiency and hope.
In carrying out this mission, IOCC assumes the highest professional standards and renders itself fully accountable to the public and its donors. Assistance is provided solely on the basis of need. (Revised May 1997)




What types of services does IOCC provide?
Community Development and Mobilization programs increase the ability of local organizations to address local challenges.
Refugee Return and Assistance programs facilitate the safe reintegration of refugees into their home countries.
Youth Development and Services programs foster youth leadership and youth participation in their communities.
Business Development programs give people the tools to work their way out of poverty with dignity.
Agriculture and Food Production programs help rural populations raise their levels of nutrition, standard of living and agricultural productivity.
Disaster and Emergency Relief programs address the immediate needs of people suffering from natural disaster, war or civil unrest.
Education and Training programs nurture local leaders and organizations which advocate for their communities and promote the general welfare.
Social Welfare programs provide material and technical assistance to social welfare institutions such as hospitals, orphanages and homeless shelters.
Shelter Construction and Repair programs.

I didn't see evangelize "the lost" on that list at all. Nor did I see, find people who think they are christian and convince them to leave thier Church and convert to ours.

[Akathist]

While I am at it, here is the humanitarian aid Eastern Orthodox in America are doing in Montenagro:



IOCC provides the following services:
1) Community Development and Mobilization programs, increasing the ability of community-based organizations to provide local solutions to local problems.
IOCC builds the organizational capacity of a core group of local non-governmental organizations (NGOs) and IDP (internally-displaced person) associations, strengthening and expanding their network, enabling them to efficiently represent and advocate for the rights of displaced people, participate in the decision-making processes related to their status and to implement projects that provide the necessary assistance to IDPs in order to help them make informed choices about their future.
2) Refugee Return and Assistance programs that facilitate the reintegration of refugees into their home countries.
In cooperation with the UN High Commissioner for Refugees and the European Commission Humanitarian aid Office, IOCC supports permanent returns to Bosnia-Herzegovina through the provision of legal assistance, information dissemination, transportation of household belongings, agriculture mechanization and return support kits that contain household appliances, tools and other items that facilitate a new beginning.
3) Agriculture and Food Production programs, helping rural populations raise their levels of nutrition, standard of living and agricultural productivity.
IOCC promotes the establishment of agricultural associations and cooperatives, enhancing their organizational capacity and building a regional agricultural consultant network. Through this intervention, IOCC enables rural populations to secure regular food supplies, participate at all levels in the decision-making processes related to sustainable agricultural and rural development, and familiarize themselves with the latest developments in agricultural science and technology.
4) Education and Training programs that equip beneficiaries with transferable lifelong skills.
In cooperation with the Technical University "BA" and an extensive network of local partners, IOCC is working to educate people of all ethnic backgrounds, thus increasing their employment opportunities and making them less dependant on social welfare and humanitarian assistance.
5) Business Development programs that give people the tools to work their way out of poverty with dignity.
IOCC continues to build on its micro-loan experience developed since 1997. IOCC provides the working capital necessary for dozens of agro-businesses and small businesses. Despite the precarious economic situation, IOCC currently achieves a 100 percent loan repayment rate.
Other recent programs include: a dental hygiene campaign implemented with the goal of improving dental hygiene habits and awareness for elementary school children; legal counselling for displaced people and other victims of injustice; and income-generating activities for people with handicaps. Since 1992, IOCC has implemented humanitarian programs in Serbia and Montenegro worth more than $54 million, providing assistance to more than 1.5 million people.