Schism

[Rhamiel]

Hello my Eastern friends, since my time here on CF I have learned experienced so many awesome examples of Orthodox Christians defending the idea of “the Church” as an institution created by God to guide mankind. My question is what is keeping the Church in schism? What can the west do to help heal this divide? And why do you guys have the awesome beards? Ok the last part was a joke.
Pax Christi

[Photios]

Hello my Eastern friends, since my time here on CF I have learned experienced so many awesome examples of Orthodox Christians defending the idea of “the Church” as an institution created by God to guide mankind. My question is what is keeping the Church in schism? What can the west do to help heal this divide? And why do you guys have the awesome beards? Ok the last part was a joke.
Pax Christi

The last part a joke! But that's the most important question! :P

I'll let others field the first questions, and chime in if I feel the urge.

[Michael the Iconographer]

Hello my Eastern friends, since my time here on CF I have learned experienced so many awesome examples of Orthodox Christians defending the idea of “the Church” as an institution created by God to guide mankind. My question is what is keeping the Church in schism? What can the west do to help heal this divide? And why do you guys have the awesome beards? Ok the last part was a joke.
Pax Christi
We have awesome beards because they look even better in icons than in real life!!! :D

[Hoankan]

For my catechism, my SF had me read a book, 'The Truth; What every Catholic should know about the Eastern Orthodox Church'. I can't remember who wrote it, but it was a good read and informative. I would recommend you check it out.

[Rhamiel]

thank you for the book recommendation

[MariaRegina]

You can obtain that book from Regina Orthodox Press, who is the publisher.

[Jacob4707]

For my catechism, my SF had me read a book, 'The Truth; What every Catholic should know about the Eastern Orthodox Church'. I can't remember who wrote it, but it was a good read and informative. I would recommend you check it out.

It's by Clark Carlton, and some people consider him a bit polemical and his arguments not always the best or totally accurate. You can read his essay to Evangelicals considering Catholicism here:

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/tca_carltonrome.aspx

The site has this to say about Carlton's book:

Carlton, Clark, The Truth: What Every Roman Catholic Should Know About the Orthodox Church. Salisbury, MA: Regina Orthodox Press (http://www.reginaorthodoxpress.com/), 1998. Well written and researched, this book takes a firm Orthodox stance concerning Roman Catholicism. The author succinctly and clearly explains the issues that separate the Roman Catholics from the Orthodox Church. There is one fairly serious omission worth noting. On p. 86, footnote 18, Mr. Carlton refers the reader to Fr. John Meyendorff's A Study of St. Gregory Palamas for a more in-depth treatment of the 14th-century Palamite Controversy. The reader should know that Fr. John's study is seriously flawed to the point of being wholly misleading, if not worthless. This was forcefully and thoroughly demonstrated by Fr. John Romanides in his masterful two-part review of A Study (http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/frjr_notes1.aspx)(The Greek Orthodox Theological Review, Vol. VI [Winter 1960-61] and Vol. IX [Winter 1963-64]).

[Photios]

The problem with the site Orthodoxinfo, is that they can be incredibly legalistic at times. I always take them with a small grain of salt.

[buzuxi02]

THE Church is never in schism because the gates of Hades shall nit prevail against it. Theres only a falling away from the Church, the one holy catholic and apostolic church remains just that.

[repentant]

A good book to read is "Rush to Embrace" by Fr. Alexey Young. St. Nikodemos Publishing.

[Philothei]

Hello my Eastern friends, since my time here on CF I have learned experienced so many awesome examples of Orthodox Christians defending the idea of “the Church” as an institution created by God to guide mankind. My question is what is keeping the Church in schism? What can the west do to help heal this divide? And why do you guys have the awesome beards? Ok the last part was a joke.
Pax Christi




This is not excatly the "reason" for the institution of the Church: to guide mankind. The purpose of the Church is to save mankind. Just that correction so that we off to a good start. :liturgy:

Second why your interest on the Schism? Maybe you should tell us why your Church wants to remain in Schism and not to come back to the one Holy catholic and apostolic Church where historically belonged.:angel:

The West can do many things among recognizing that there is no papal supremacy and all Patriarchates are equal. This is the starting point for any kind of understanding among our churches IMO. This is the number one stumbling stone.

God bless,
Philothei

[rusmeister]

THE Church is never in schism because the gates of Hades shall nit prevail against it. Theres only a falling away from the Church, the one holy catholic and apostolic church remains just that.

That is exactly it.

This is not excatly the "reason" for the institution of the Church: to guide mankind. The purpose of the Church is to save mankind. Just that correction so that we off to a good start. :liturgy:

Isn't that: we BE off... :P


Second why your interest on the Schism? Maybe you should tell us why your Church wants to remain in Schism and not to come back to the one Holy catholic and apostolic Church where historically belonged.:angel:


The West can do many things among recognizing that there is no papal supremacy and all Patriarchates are equal. This is the starting point for any kind of understanding among our churches IMO. This is the number one stumbling stone.

God bless,
Philothei

Agree, but I'm sure Catholics don't want to "be in schism". It's all (for them, as well as us) a question of which Church fell away. Just don't want to seem offensive to our Catholic brothers.

[Michael the Iconographer]

The Onion Dome has the most accurate account of the mechanisms that led to the schism that I have read to date!

[Akathist]

I think the Catholic Church and many of the people inside it genuinely wish that the Eastern Orthodox would come into their church and be in full union with them.

However, the problem is that there is some very important differences in beliefs and practices that the Eastern Orthodox just can't agree with. In my opinion, Papal infallability is the main thing because while that stands, no other changes can be made to thier doctrines about things such as purgatory, graces to get out of purgatory (which seem like a point system to me but I probably misunderstand it.), the conception of Mary being somehow different then the conception of anyone else (though we agree about the incarnation of the Lord.) The changes in the CC's Mass over the recent decades. The filliogue of course is the first thing that comes to many people's mind but I think these other things are big too. So is allowing married Priests. I can't see the CC agreeing to that. The asceticism of fasting has different standards between the two Churches. This might not seem like a big deal, but if we were really in the process of uniting I am sure this issue would quickly become a big deal.

The return of relics taken from Constantinople was a good thing. The return of the rest of the items would also be a very good thing. But beside that, there would need to be some changes that I don't think the CC would be willing to do and without those changes, I dont' see the EOC coming into union with them.

That said, I have a lot of respect for the CC church, and I can see a lot of similarities between the two churches. I took RCIA many many years ago and just before finding the EOC was going to daily Mass. In many ways, those daily Masses prevented me from killing myself as I was in that bad a condition emotionally at the time. So, I am very grateful. I have met and am friends with many wonderful Christians in the Catholic Church. There are just a few things that I don't agree with.

[Michael the Iconographer]

Am I the only one here who sees major errors in RCC teaching?

[Philothei]

Am I the only one here who sees major errors in RCC teaching?
Of course not!!! Time for you to bring in your Pappyarch!!!:bow: :bow: :bow:

lol...
Philothei :crosseo:

[Michael the Iconographer]

Of course not!!! Time for you to bring in your Pappyarch!!!:bow: :bow: :bow:

lol...
Philothei :crosseo:

Tikhon is a very nice dog, until you try to take something from him, then he has a fierce growl. I am sure he would handle the situation very adeptly.

LOL!

Has anyone else ever noticed how focused many Roman Catholics are on bringing an end to the schism? I wonder why? I was that way as a Roman Catholic too, but now that I am Orthodox I don't see any need to rush to bring the rest of Christianity back into Orthodox Christianity.

[kamikat]

Not just you, Michael. I'm sure most, if not all of us, who are ex-Catholics see it. I also feel no rush. Individuals will come into the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church at their own pace. The Roman church will repent of it schism and re-join the Church only in God's time.

[Michael the Iconographer]

Not just you, Michael. I'm sure most, if not all of us, who are ex-Catholics see it. I also feel no rush. Individuals will come into the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church at their own pace. The Roman church will repent of it schism and re-join the Church only in God's time.
But first it must realize it is in schism and that many of it's teachings are problematic (that is the best word I can find to describe it), especially those new marian doctrines.

[Mary of Bethany]

I think Catholics don't realize just how very different the whole mind-set of Catholicism is from Orthodoxy. It's that Western "scholastism", "rationalism" - whatever you want to call it, that thinks it has to quantify everything. Like merits and indulgences. How do you quantify God's grace????

And it has to define everything to a "t", which takes away Holy Mystery, and tries to explain God and His workings in ways that were never meant to be defined.

And the fact that they apply the canons more as a "one size fits all" instead of as guidelines to be used as medicine for the healing of individual persons, at the discretion of their priest/Bishop.

I realize these are huge generalizations, but I'm using them to point out the fact that our differences are much more than specific theological points - it's a whole different way of thinking about the faith.

Mary

[Michael the Iconographer]

I think Catholics don't realize just how very different the whole mind-set of Catholicism is from Orthodoxy. It's that Western "scholastism", "rationalism" - whatever you want to call it, that thinks it has to quantify everything. Like merits and indulgences. How do you quantify God's grace????

And it has to define everything to a "t", which takes away Holy Mystery, and tries to explain God and His workings in ways that were never meant to be defined.

And the fact that they apply the canons more as a "one size fits all" instead of as guidelines to be used as medicine for the healing of individual persons, at the discretion of their priest/Bishop.

I realize these are huge generalizations, but I'm using them to point out the fact that our differences are much more than specific theological points - it's a whole different way of thinking about the faith.

Mary
Thank you, that is so very well said!

[Rhamiel]

I must first point out that I am a little dismayed with some of the negativity being displayed here. The Roman Church did not leave the One Holy Apostolic Church, nor did the Orthodox Churches. One very real Church united by the sacraments but still, unfortunately, in formal schism.
Akathist, you mentioned that the unmarried priesthood in the Roman Catholic Church is problematic but I think of this as a discipline in the West and not the Concern of the East, no offense but since you talk about respect and quality among patriarchs would not this fall under a spiritual discipline set forth by the Bishop of Rome.
Also Purgatory was brought up. What is the Orthodox view of the soul after death?

[kamikat]

The Roman Church did not leave the One Holy Apostolic Church, nor did the Orthodox Churches. One very real Church united by the sacraments but still, unfortunately, in formal schism. [/SIZE]

Our churches are not united by the sacraments. Being united by the sacraments would entail that we allow RC to receive the sacraments in our churches. We do not. I know that if there are extrordinary circumstances, Orthodox Christians may receive in Catholic churches, but this is not the norm. We do not believe that the RC church has a valid Apostolic succession and all that entails.

[Rhamiel]

Our churches are not united by the sacraments. Being united by the sacraments would entail that we allow RC to receive the sacraments in our churches. We do not. I know that if there are extrordinary circumstances, Orthodox Christians may receive in Catholic churches, but this is not the norm. We do not believe that the RC church has a valid Apostolic succession and all that entails.

Thank you for that clarification

[Akathist]

I must first point out that I am a little dismayed with some of the negativity being displayed here. The Roman Church did not leave the One Holy Apostolic Church, nor did the Orthodox Churches. One very real Church united by the sacraments but still, unfortunately, in formal schism.
Akathist, you mentioned that the unmarried priesthood in the Roman Catholic Church is problematic but I think of this as a discipline in the West and not the Concern of the East, no offense but since you talk about respect and quality among patriarchs would not this fall under a spiritual discipline set forth by the Bishop of Rome.
Also Purgatory was brought up. What is the Orthodox view of the soul after death?

I would appreciate it if you would quote me and point out where I was in any way disrespectful in my comments. I pointed out that I disagreed or found some practices and doctrines problematic to reunion but I don't believe I was in any way disrespecful. Therefore, please enlighten me so that I can take corrective action in the future.

Our views of the soul after death is Number 1: "It is a mystery". Number 2: "It is a Mystery." Number 3: "God is able to handle that without any direction from us...... and it is a mystery."

We have various opinions expressed about the soul in the afterlife that are all acceptable opinions but we have no concrete doctrine that says first this happens, then this happens, etc etc. What we all agree with is that there is a final judgement when Christ return, a resurrection of the body and eternal life. We believe that the Saints intercede for us, as does the Theotokos. We believe that it is good for us and them to pray for the deceased. The details are fuzzy.

[Philothei]

I would appreciate it if you would quote me and point out where I was in any way disrespectful in my comments. I pointed out that I disagreed or found some practices and doctrines problematic to reunion but I don't believe I was in any way disrespecful. Therefore, please enlighten me so that I can take corrective action in the future.

Our views of the soul after death is Number 1: "It is a mystery". Number 2: "It is a Mystery." Number 3: "God is able to handle that without any direction from us...... and it is a mystery."

We have various opinions expressed about the soul in the afterlife that are all acceptable opinions but we have no concrete doctrine that says first this happens, then this happens, etc etc. What we all agree with is that there is a final judgement when Christ return, a resurrection of the body and eternal life. We believe that the Saints intercede for us, as does the Theotokos. We believe that it is good for us and them to pray for the deceased. The details are fuzzy.
Rather that qualify them as "fuzzy" I would say they are not pertinent to our salvation. We already know what we have for our salvation.

P.

[Rhamiel]

Akathist, I did not mean to imply that you were the one who was being negative, I am sorry if I gave off that impression.

[EmperorConstantine]

Hello my Eastern friends, since my time here on CF I have learned experienced so many awesome examples of Orthodox Christians defending the idea of “the Church” as an institution created by God to guide mankind. My question is what is keeping the Church in schism? What can the west do to help heal this divide? And why do you guys have the awesome beards? Ok the last part was a joke.
Pax Christi
Jesus had a beard. We are called to imitate Christ, so why not? :P



Seriousness now. The main issue that is keeping the Roman Church from Orthodoxy is a number of things, remember the way we see it is that Rome left:
1) lack of history. I went to a Catholic school for nine years of my (in progress) education. One things I always found interest was how there was this 1,000 year gap between Pentecost and the Crusades. Then when we got to the Crusades was the first time I've EVER heard of some foreign "Greek Church" that abandoned the pope. I also had never heard of any sort of Christianity in Eastern Europe except for the Jews.

2) pride in being Catholic with an ultra closed mind. The main attitude I've seen from many ardent/fanatical Catholics is the argument "You're not with the pope, thus you are a heretic! Repent!" You get the general idea.

3) all sorts of added stuff. Transubstantiation ring a bell? Filioque? Papal supremacy? Immaculate Conception? Priestly celibacy? The list goes on.


One thing that I think Rome would have to do is rethink a lot of their stuff such as things listed above. I think that if Rome would ever really try to reunite, they'd essentially have to become Orthodox. It would be a slow process that is waaaay to complex. (Yes, I did give this some serious thought one day ;))

[Akathist]

Rather that qualify them as "fuzzy" I would say they are not pertinent to our salvation. We already know what we have for our salvation.

P.


Yes, I was "fuzzy" in what I said. What I meant was that we don't try to have detailed answers to things we consider a mystery... it all doesn't have to make sense or be all thought out... the image of it in our minds can be out of focus....

much like what Saint Paul said about seeing in the glass darkly now and then later being able to see clearly.

[Michael the Iconographer]

I must first point out that I am a little dismayed with some of the negativity being displayed here. The Roman Church did not leave the One Holy Apostolic Church, nor did the Orthodox Churches. One very real Church united by the sacraments but still, unfortunately, in formal schism.
Akathist, you mentioned that the unmarried priesthood in the Roman Catholic Church is problematic but I think of this as a discipline in the West and not the Concern of the East, no offense but since you talk about respect and quality among patriarchs would not this fall under a spiritual discipline set forth by the Bishop of Rome.
Also Purgatory was brought up. What is the Orthodox view of the soul after death?
You are in error here. The Roman Church is NOT sacramentally united to Orthodox Christianity. That union was officially ended in 1054 AD.

[Philothei]

The Roman Church did not leave the One Holy Apostolic Church, nor did the Orthodox Churches. One very real Church united by the sacraments but still, unfortunately, in formal schism.




Big mistakes:

1.There is one Church that left and that is Roman Catholic church, or better put the Sea of Rome, or the Partiarchate of Rome.:priest:

2. the term "Orthodox Churches" the way it is used here is also wrong they are Partriarchates who remained parts of the One catholic and apostolic Church" (not Churches this is misinformation).

3. We are not "one real church united by the sacraments, and not formaly united." If you insist in using the term "Church" ok but we are not united. As it is the Patriarch of Rome who allienated his Sea from the rest of "The One catholic and apostolic Church of Christ".
Also just because we accept the sacrament of baptism (so we accept all baptisms that are done in the name of the Trinity also from our Protestant Churches, -talkng about SCOBA) does not mean we are in communion.:liturgy:


Peace,
God bless,
Philothei:crosseo:

[Michael the Iconographer]

The Roman Church did not leave the One Holy Apostolic Church, nor did the Orthodox Churches. One very real Church united by the sacraments but still, unfortunately, in formal schism.




Big mistakes:

1.There is one Church that left and that is Roman Catholic church, or better put the Sea of Rome, or the Partiarchate of Rome.:priest:

2. the term "Orthodox Churches" the way it is used here is also wrong they are Partriarchates who remained parts of the One catholic and apostolic Church" (not Churches this is misinformation).

3. We are not "one real church united by the sacraments, and not formaly united." If you insist in using the term "Church" ok but we are not united. As it is the Patriarch of Rome who allienated his Sea from the rest of "The One catholic and apostolic Church of Christ".
Also just because we accept the sacrament of baptism (so we accept all baptisms that are done in the name of the Trinity also from our Protestant Churches, -talkng about SCOBA) does not mean we are in communion.:liturgy:


Peace,
God bless,
Philothei:crosseo:

Clap!!!

[MichaelArchangelos]

About married priests: Roman Catholicism allows priests of the Eastern Rites (Byzantine, Melkite, Maronite, etc) to be married. Only priests of the Latin Rite must be celibate.

The following post on OrthodoxForum I think quite clearly shows what would need to happen for a true union with Rome.

A TRUE union with Rome - What would have to happen (http://www.orthodoxforum.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=518)

(By the way, the poster uses the term "Latins" to refer to Roman Catholics, and the "Latin Church" to refer to the Roman Catholic Church)

[Michael the Iconographer]

About married priests: Roman Catholicism allows priests of the Eastern Rites (Byzantine, Melkite, Maronite, etc) to be married. Only priests of the Latin Rite must be celibate.

The following post on OrthodoxForum I think quite clearly shows what would need to happen for a true union with Rome.

A TRUE union with Rome - What would have to happen (http://www.orthodoxforum.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=518)

(By the way, the poster uses the term "Latins" to refer to Roman Catholics, and the "Latin Church" to refer to the Roman Catholic Church)
Rome does not allow married men to be ordained Byzantine Rite priests in the United States. As recently as 1999 the late Metropolitan Judson, Byzantine Catholic Metropolitan of Pittsburgh and Primate of the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church (one rank short of Patriarch) attempted to ordain 2 married men and was stopped by 2 Vatican Cardinals who used the exucse that it would "confuse the faithful."

[Philothei]

As far as celibacy, it is something that developed in the West... Let us not forget the Bishops were married too up to the third century AD...Where most of the Apostles married? Yes! They were married men with families to be exact every hierarch should be married. that was the practice of the Church.

God bless,
Philothei

[Michael the Iconographer]

Celibacy is the least of the issues that divide the two churches.

[Akathist]

Celibacy is the least of the issues that divide the two churches.

I am not sure that is correct. The fact is that each of these differences play a role in the seperation of the two Churches and repeatedly this particular one has been tested by the Eastern Rite Catholics. I had also read the same thing you mentioned above about how the Eastern Rite was restricted from ordaining married Priests.

If the Papal Infallability was removed, and some of the doctrinal issues were ironed out, the two churches would still have a lot of issues to work out when it comes to practices.

Look that the Tripikon (spelling?) issues being worked out to bring ROCOR back into full communion. They were talking about details of slight things about the wording of things in the Liturgy, or something like that last I heard. And this is with a body that has been seperated from only part of the EOC for 50 years. It will be a much longer and arduous process if there were ever any real chance of unity with the CC and the EOC.

[Michael the Iconographer]

I am not sure that is correct. The fact is that each of these differences play a role in the seperation of the two Churches and repeatedly this particular one has been tested by the Eastern Rite Catholics. I had also read the same thing you mentioned above about how the Eastern Rite was restricted from ordaining married Priests.

If the Papal Infallability was removed, and some of the doctrinal issues were ironed out, the two churches would still have a lot of issues to work out when it comes to practices.

Look that the Tripikon (spelling?) issues being worked out to bring ROCOR back into full communion. They were talking about details of slight things about the wording of things in the Liturgy, or something like that last I heard. And this is with a body that has been seperated from only part of the EOC for 50 years. It will be a much longer and arduous process if there were ever any real chance of unity with the CC and the EOC.
I would suggest the western "scholastic" mindset is the biggest non-doctrinal issue that separates Orthodox Christianity from the west.

[kamikat]

In my mind, it's papal infallibility. If the pope is infallible, then he has the authority to change or add new doctrines at will. We, as Orthodox Christians, hold our "unchangable doctrines" as one of the important "selling points" (for lack of a better term) of our faith.

[Jacob4707]

THE Church is never in schism because the gates of Hades shall nit prevail against it. Theres only a falling away from the Church, the one holy catholic and apostolic church remains just that.

My understanding is that while the Roman Catholic Church regards the (Eastern) Orthodox Church as being in schism, the Orthodox Church regards the Roman Catholic Church as being apostate. I.e., there isn't just a division (schism) between the two Churches. Rather, the RCC is regarded as having fallen away from the Faith and is no longer "The Church." If that is true, then the only movement towards reconciliation that the Orthodox will be open to is that Rome move towards Orthodoxy, as Orthodoxy is not moving anywhere, nor interested in moving anywhere.

[Philothei]

I would suggest the western "scholastic" mindset is the biggest non-doctrinal issue that separates Orthodox Christianity from the west.
Yes, I agree the world view is much complicated than doctrinal issues and dogma. On the other hand the doctrine "shapes" the mindset of the people. Orthodox ethos takes a life time to change...

thought of sharing this article that me and hubbie are currently reading it is too big to post here.

http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles7/HilarionSalvation.php


It gives a taste of the Resurrection East versus West.


P.

[RobNJ]

Yes, I agree the world view is much complicated than doctrinal issues and dogma. On the other hand the doctrine "shapes" the mindset of the people. Orthodox ethos takes a life time to change...

thought of sharing this article that me and hubbie are currently reading it is too big to post here.

http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles7/HilarionSalvation.php


It gives a taste of the Resurrection East versus West.


P.

I saved that article as a PDF :thumbsup:

[Akathist]

Yes, I agree the world view is much complicated than doctrinal issues and dogma. On the other hand the doctrine "shapes" the mindset of the people. Orthodox ethos takes a life time to change...

thought of sharing this article that me and hubbie are currently reading it is too big to post here.

http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles7/HilarionSalvation.php


It gives a taste of the Resurrection East versus West.


P.

Thank you. I printed it out as reading long articles on line is bothering my eyes lately.

[NyssaTheHobbit]

Ooh, an article on one of my favorite subjects. Time to print!

[EmperorConstantine]

It took centuries of digression and isolation for East and West to split.

It would take just as long, if not longer, for either to have a realistic chance of reunification.

I just figure this: pray for the missionaries. Orthodoxy is on the rise, maybe we can have a very significant foot in Western Europe's door.

[Michael the Iconographer]

It took centuries of digression and isolation for East and West to split.

It would take just as long, if not longer, for either to have a realistic chance of reunification.

I just figure this: pray for the missionaries. Orthodoxy is on the rise, maybe we can have a very significant foot in Western Europe's door.
I agree, there certainly will be no rush to union between the two, as some from OBOB have suggested there might be.

[Akathist]

I agree, there certainly will be no rush to union between the two, as some from OBOB have suggested there might be.

If the CC wants to rush forward on their part of reunification that would be fine by me. However, I don't see us as even giving this idea much serious consideration so I doubt the EOC would be joining their rush.

[Michael the Iconographer]

If the CC wants to rush forward on their part of reunification that would be fine by me. However, I don't see us as even giving this idea much serious consideration so I doubt the EOC would be joining their rush.
The EOC sees no rush to union, but if you talk to very many RCC's you will often sense a rush to union in their talk. It is as if they are missing something that we have and they desperately want.

[Akathist]

The EOC sees no rush to union, but if you talk to very many RCC's you will often sense a rush to union in their talk. It is as if they are missing something that we have and they desperately want.

I agree with you. The way some Catholics talk about the need for union has even included words like ... connecting with the other lung of the church... . I think that there must be something they are seeking. I realize it could be as simple as fulfillment of Christ's wish that we all be one, as He and the Father (and Holy Spirit) are one. But, I think that some of the contemporization of things is bothering some Catholics even though they want to stay in their parish with their family and friends, and perhaps they wish to bring the EOC in to give back some of the ancient flavor of the worship.

But, I could be wrong. What I hear from some Catholic friends is that they wish we were one because they actually agree with the doctrines of the EOC, but they don't want to leave their parish and friends. Perhaps these are the minority.

[kamikat]

I agree with you. The way some Catholics talk about the need for union has even included words like ... connecting with the other lung of the church... .

If they are using the "other lung" verabge it's because they misunderstand what "other lung" means. When that phrase was first used, it was used to describe the Eastern Catholics. Most Roman Catholics are either unaware of Eastern Catholics or they just don't even think about them at all.

But, I could be wrong. What I hear from some Catholic friends is that they wish we were one because they actually agree with the doctrines of the EOC, but they don't want to leave their parish and friends. Perhaps these are the minority.

Maybe of the younger folks, but the older ones were raised to believe that any Catholic who left communion with Rome is damning themselves to hell without a chance for salvation. They may agree with EOC doctrines but are afraid for their immortal souls.

[EmperorConstantine]

The EOC sees no rush to union, but if you talk to very many RCC's you will often sense a rush to union in their talk. It is as if they are missing something that we have and they desperately want.
I think the first spot on the EOC's "Reunion List" is actually the Oriental Orthodox.

If they are using the "other lung" verabge it's because they misunderstand what "other lung" means. When that phrase was first used, it was used to describe the Eastern Catholics. Most Roman Catholics are either unaware of Eastern Catholics or they just don't even think about them at all.
You want to hear something sad? I never heard of Eastern Rite Catholics until I heard of Orthodoxy. I did not hear of Orthodoxy from Catholic school.

Basically, non-Latin rites are usually ignored or treated as "others".

[Michael the Iconographer]

If they are using the "other lung" verabge it's because they misunderstand what "other lung" means. When that phrase was first used, it was used to describe the Eastern Catholics. Most Roman Catholics are either unaware of Eastern Catholics or they just don't even think about them at all.



Maybe of the younger folks, but the older ones were raised to believe that any Catholic who left communion with Rome is damning themselves to hell without a chance for salvation. They may agree with EOC doctrines but are afraid for their immortal souls.
I had alot of work to do freeing myself of that mindset that I would be damning myself to hell for eternity before I was able to accept Chrismation in the Orthodox Church. I actually did not feel 100% comfortable with the Chrismation until after it was all said and done when Fr. Basil welcomed me home to the Holy Orthodox faith and told me that that night I had fulfilled my catholic faith.

[kamikat]

I had alot of work to do freeing myself of that mindset that I would be damning myself to hell for eternity before I was able to accept Chrismation in the Orthodox Church. I actually did not feel 100% comfortable with the Chrismation until after it was all said and done when Fr. Basil welcomed me home to the Holy Orthodox faith and told me that that night I had fulfilled my catholic faith.

Same here!

[Michael the Iconographer]

Same here!
Glad to know I am not the only one.

[kamikat]

The Sunday before my chrismation, I was introduced to a woman who had converted from Catholicism 15 years ago. She had raised several children in the EOC, had sent 2 of them to Orthodox seminary and was bothered by that issue until her oldest son started sharing stuff from seminary with her.

[Michael the Iconographer]

The Sunday before my chrismation, I was introduced to a woman who had converted from Catholicism 15 years ago. She had raised several children in the EOC, had sent 2 of them to Orthodox seminary and was bothered by that issue until her oldest son started sharing stuff from seminary with her.
I was able to let go of that issue the night I was Chrismated, but only through the grace of God.