Is Jesus God or the Son of God? [Archive]

Catherineanne

30th April 2007, 09:12 AM

Anyway... Christ is God but he is not God the Father.

Rather he is the son of God. In which God the Father begets him.

Also he took the form of man, therefore he is not man perse.

This is slightly muddled thinking, I am afraid.

There is only one God in Christianity. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit is not three different people, but one person in three different guises or manifestations.

Christ is indeed God himself. He is not the son of God in the sense that he is begotten of God in the same way that a boy is begotten of his father. Such a relationship would end up with two different people, which is not what we have in the Triune God.

Christ is both fully God and fully man; this is the great mystery of the Incarnation.

The subtleties of this are very difficult to grasp, and even harder to convey to others, but if we hang on to the basic premise that there is only one God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, then we are in line with the Nicene Creed, and with any luck in line with the universal church and the communion of saints.

Chazper

1st May 2007, 12:56 AM

This is slightly muddled thinking, I am afraid.

There is only one God in Christianity. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit is not three different people, but one person in three different guises or manifestations.

Christ is indeed God himself. He is not the son of God in the sense that he is begotten of God in the same way that a boy is begotten of his father. Such a relationship would end up with two different people, which is not what we have in the Triune God.

Christ is both fully God and fully man; this is the great mystery of the Incarnation.

The subtleties of this are very difficult to grasp, and even harder to convey to others, but if we hang on to the basic premise that there is only one God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, then we are in line with the Nicene Creed, and with any luck in line with the universal church and the communion of saints.

Muddled thinking you say. I believe that God the Father and Jesus are one, but not the same way as other muddled thinkers believe.

Quick questions:

Do you disagree that Jesus and God the Father are two different person?

If you disagree, do you believe that Jesus IS God the Father and God the Father IS Jesus?

B®ent

2nd May 2007, 04:46 AM

This is to deny the Holy Trinity, an essential Christian truth. Not to sound harsh, but if anyone denies that Jesus is God, they are not Christians at all.

We are in complete agreement.

- Brent

Catherineanne

2nd May 2007, 11:19 AM

Quick questions:

Do you disagree that Jesus and God the Father are two different person?

If you disagree, do you believe that Jesus IS God the Father and God the Father IS Jesus?

It doesn't matter tuppence what I personally believe.

Our faith tells us that God the Father and God the Son are one and the same, because this is what Christ himself says.

They are not two different persons, therefore, but indeed it is the case that Our Lord is God and God the Father is Our Lord. And the Holy Spirit is the spirit of both the Father and the Son.

Anyone who thinks differently is not in line with the Nicene Creed. I hesitate to make prounouncements about what is and what is not Christianity, but it is difficult to see how anyone can be admitted into the Christian fold who does not accept that Christ is God, because this is the foundation and cornerstone of our whole faith.

Chazper

3rd May 2007, 11:29 AM

It doesn't matter tuppence what I personally believe.

Our faith tells us that God the Father and God the Son are one and the same, because this is what Christ himself says.

Where in the Bible can you read that God the Father and Jesus are the same?

The Bible says that Jesus and the Father are one.
I and my Father are one.

but does that mean that they are the same? ^_^

Tell me,

Homer shall marry Marge
and the two shall become ONE flesh

Following your logic that they are the same...
is Homer Marge?
Or is Marge Homer?

That is not biblical logic.

:preach: Mark 10: 6-8 But from the beginning of the creation, God ‘made them male and female.’[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%2010:6-8;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-24589a)] 7 ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, 8 and the two shall become one flesh’;[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%2010:6-8;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-24591b)] so then they are no longer two, but one flesh.

They are not two different persons, therefore, but indeed it is the case that Our Lord is God and God the Father is Our Lord. And the Holy Spirit is the spirit of both the Father and the Son.

God the Father is not Jesus, they are not the same for God the Father is greater than Jesus. Those who believe otherwise is not according to the real christian faith.

John 14: 28Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for MY FATHER IS GREATER THAN I.

So how are they one? In what sense?
Is there such thing as a Trinity or Holy Trinity? (http://www.truthcaster.com/) Under the featured videos you shall find the answer. Hope this helps.

Chazper

3rd May 2007, 11:33 AM

We are in complete agreement.

- Brent

Is There such a thing as a Trinity or Holy Trinity?... (http://www.truthcaster.com/)Please take a look under the featured videos. :thumbsup:

bluemarkus

17th May 2007, 03:37 AM

he is both

the letter is dead, the spirit gives life

Mathetes the kerux

18th May 2007, 07:52 AM

Thank you, all. :wave:

So, if I come across Christians who insist that Jesus is the Son of God but not God, are they mistaken, or are there denominations which teach this? :confused:

glo
There are heretical movements that teach this but they are not "Christian."

Jesus said that one must believe that He is the "I AM" of Exodus 3 in order for them to even be saved . . . IE belief that He is God is essential for salvation. If one believes otherwise then they are not Christian.

Mathetes the kerux

18th May 2007, 07:54 AM

Where in the Bible can you read that God the Father and Jesus are the same?

The Bible says that Jesus and the Father are one.
I and my Father are one.

but does that mean that they are the same? ^_^

Tell me,

Homer shall marry Marge
and the two shall become ONE flesh

Following your logic that they are the same...
is Homer Marge?
Or is Marge Homer?

That is not biblical logic.

:preach: Mark 10: 6-8 But from the beginning of the creation, God ‘made them male and female.’[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%2010:6-8;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-24589a)] 7 ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, 8 and the two shall become one flesh’;[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%2010:6-8;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-24591b)] so then they are no longer two, but one flesh.

God the Father is not Jesus, they are not the same for God the Father is greater than Jesus. Those who believe otherwise is not according to the real christian faith.

John 14: 28Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for MY FATHER IS GREATER THAN I.

So how are they one? In what sense?
Is there such thing as a Trinity or Holy Trinity? (http://www.truthcaster.com/) Under the featured videos you shall find the answer. Hope this helps.
The "greater" refers to position and authority not ontology.

Mathetes the kerux

18th May 2007, 09:15 AM

Where in the Bible can you read that God the Father and Jesus are the same?

The Bible says that Jesus and the Father are one.
I and my Father are one.

but does that mean that they are the same? ^_^

Tell me,

Homer shall marry Marge
and the two shall become ONE flesh

Following your logic that they are the same...
is Homer Marge?
Or is Marge Homer?

That is not biblical logic.

:preach: Mark 10: 6-8 But from the beginning of the creation, God ‘made them male and female.’[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%2010:6-8;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-24589a)] 7 ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, 8 and the two shall become one flesh’;[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%2010:6-8;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-24591b)] so then they are no longer two, but one flesh.

God the Father is not Jesus, they are not the same for God the Father is greater than Jesus. Those who believe otherwise is not according to the real christian faith.

John 14: 28Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for MY FATHER IS GREATER THAN I.

So how are they one? In what sense?
Is there such thing as a Trinity or Holy Trinity? (http://www.truthcaster.com/) Under the featured videos you shall find the answer. Hope this helps.
The clip of your "bro. eli" is a classical straw man set up.

The teacher doesn't even understand the Greek.

Chazper

18th May 2007, 09:16 AM

The "greater" refers to position and authority not ontology.

So THEY don't have the same position and authority? Meaning THEY are the same person? :confused:

-----------------------------
Here's another one.

:preach: John 17:1 After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: "Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you.

If Jesus is God the Father, why did he have to look toward heaven and prayed to the Father if He is also the Father?

Is He just over acting (looking toward heaven)? Is He just playing with words (Father... Glorify your Son)? No way!!!! Christ has more sense that! :thumbsup:

Ask Bro. Eli and the Bible will answer http://esoriano.wordpress.com/

Mathetes the kerux

18th May 2007, 09:23 AM

So THEY don't have the same position and authority? Meaning THEY are the same person? :confused:

-----------------------------
Here's another one.

:preach: John 17:1 After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: "Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you.

If Jesus is God the Father, why did he have to look toward heaven and prayed to the Father if He is also the Father?

Is He just over acting (looking toward heaven)? Is He just playing with words (Father... Glorify your Son)? No way!!!! Christ has more sense that! :thumbsup:

Ask Bro. Eli and the Bible will answer http://esoriano.wordpress.com/
Why ask Eli? Just read for yourself.

Jesus is NOT the father . . . but He is God as the Father is God.

They do NOT possess the same position or authority . . . like George Bush. He has more authority and position than I do . . . but in essence there is NO difference. We are both Humans and share the same ontological makeup . . . yet our positions and the authority that we wield are not the same.

Chazper

18th May 2007, 09:25 AM

The clip of your "bro. eli" is a classical straw man set up.

The teacher doesn't even understand the Greek.

That is your opinion and accusation without proof. ;)

Ask Bro. Eli and the Bible will Answer: http://esoriano.wordpress.com/

Chazper

18th May 2007, 09:28 AM

Jesus is NOT the father . . . but He is God as the Father is God.

Thanks for your acceptance... that Jesus is NOT the Father :amen:

Mathetes the kerux

18th May 2007, 09:45 AM

That is your opinion and accusation without proof. ;)

Ask Bro. Eli and the Bible will Answer: http://esoriano.wordpress.com/
Proof? He doesn't dive into the Greek of the word meizon (greater) and its meaning. BECAUSE THE MEANING directly contradicts what he is teaching.

He uses the RC statement of Trinity to set up and attack a doctrine that is held by many MORE than just the RC. That is a straw man . . . not my opinion but the fact of what he does.

Mathetes the kerux

18th May 2007, 09:46 AM

Thanks for your acceptance... that Jesus is NOT the Father :amen:
To say that Jesus is the Father is Modalistic Monarchianism or Sabellianism (known today as the Oneness movement) and is not orthodox Christianity. But Jesus IS God the same as the Father is God.

Mathetes the kerux

18th May 2007, 09:51 AM

Dude do you realize that this guy Bro. Eli believes that there are multiple gods!? That is ploytheism! He calls is a congregation of gods!

DiscipleDave

20th May 2007, 11:40 AM

I have come across this kind of discussion between Christians in various other places.

I am wondering if there are denominational differences in this opinion?

Personally, I was taught that Jesus is God, and that the term 'son of God' is merely used to refer to him taking on human form and fulfilling God's will on earth.

Do the differences in opinion lie in the interpretation of 'son of God', or are there actual denomination differences here?

glo

Jesus Christ is my God, and He is the Son of the Father in Heaven. Jesus Christ is my God, my Master, my Lord, my Savior, my Everything, and He sits on the right side of the Father in Heaven, and the left side of the Father sits the Holy Ghost, and these three are one, they these three are my God. If you have seen the Holy Ghost, you have seen the Father. If you have seen the Son, you have seen the Father, if you have seen the Son you have seen the Holy Ghost, if you have heard from the Holy Ghost, you have heard from the Son, if you have heard from the Son, you have heard from the Father.

When you understand this Scripture:

Mk:10:7: For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife;8: And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.

When you understand the meaning of those verses, you will understand the meaning of the Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost also being ONE.

IN His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ
DiscipleDave
^i^

Chazper

21st May 2007, 07:48 AM

Dude do you realize that this guy Bro. Eli believes that there are multiple gods!? That is ploytheism! He calls is a congregation of gods!

Hi Mathetes,

Is there something wrong if there are many gods? Is it wrong if God acknowledges that there are gods?

:preach: Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods?

If it is written in the bible and I think you have heard Bro. Eli discussed that, why should you be surprise that there are gods?

What is important is... Christians have one God the Father from whom all things came. Taking in consideration the biblical meaning of the word "one"... just like how the husband is one with his wife.

Jesus is God... the Father is God... Jesus is not the Father... that we agree. :thumbsup:

------------------------------------------------------------
Ask Soriano and the Bible will answer! http://esoriano.wordpress.com/ http://www.truthcaster.com/

Mathetes the kerux

21st May 2007, 08:32 PM

Hi Mathetes,

Is there something wrong if there are many gods? Is it wrong if God acknowledges that there are gods?

:preach: Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods?

If it is written in the bible and I think you have heard Bro. Eli discussed that, why should you be surprise that there are gods?

What is important is... Christians have one God the Father from whom all things came. Taking in consideration the biblical meaning of the word "one"... just like how the husband is one with his wife.

Jesus is God... the Father is God... Jesus is not the Father... that we agree. :thumbsup:

------------------------------------------------------------
Ask Soriano and the Bible will answer! http://esoriano.wordpress.com/ http://www.truthcaster.com/
Dude . . . you must intepret Scripture with Scripture.

what about these?

Isa 45:14
14 Thus says the LORD,
"The products of Egypt and the merchandise of Cush
And the Sabeans, men of stature,
Will come over to you and will be yours;
They will walk behind you, they will come over in chains
And will bow down to you;
They will make supplication to you:
' Surely, God is with you, and there is none else,
NO OTHER GOD.
NASU

Isa 45:21
21 " Declare and set forth your case;
Indeed, let them consult together.
Who has announced this from of old?
Who has long since declared it?
Is it not I, the LORD?
And there is no other God besides Me,
A righteous God and a Savior;
There is none except Me.
NASU

Deut 4:35
35 "To you it was shown that you might know that the LORD, He is God; there is no other besides Him
NASU

Isa 44:6
6 "Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts:
'I am the first and I am the last,
And there is no God besides Me.
NASU

Isa 43:10
You are My witnesses," declares the LORD,
"And My servant whom I have chosen,
So that you may know and believe Me
And understand that I am He.
Before Me there was no God formed,
And there will be none after Me.
NASU

Isa 46:9
9 "Remember the former things long past,
For I am God, and there is no other;
NASU

1 Tim 2:5
5 For there is one God,
NASU

Sorry dude . . . God says Himself that there is only one true God . . . all others are false.

Jesus' quote is from an OT passage in Psalms where the word for God (elohiym) is used in connection to the judges of Israel who acted in the stead of God in reference to judging matters in Israel . . . God was being sarcastic in calling them "gods."

The passage that Bro. Eli qutoes to try and prove polytheism is a linguistic apparatus used by the Hebrews to show YHWH's superiority over the gods of the pagan nations . . . not to try and prove that there are indeed multiple gods. Paul says that the idols represent demons dude.

Chazper

28th May 2007, 09:06 AM

Dude . . . you must intepret Scripture with Scripture.....

Sorry dude . . . God says Himself that there is only one true God . . . all others are false.

Jesus' quote is from an OT passage in Psalms where the word for God (elohiym) is used in connection to the judges of Israel who acted in the stead of God in reference to judging matters in Israel . . . God was being sarcastic in calling them "gods."

The passage that Bro. Eli qutoes to try and prove polytheism is a linguistic apparatus used by the Hebrews to show YHWH's superiority over the gods of the pagan nations . . . not to try and prove that there are indeed multiple gods. Paul says that the idols represent demons dude.

Elohim - is this plural in sense or singular?

Don't get me wrong, if polytheism is the worship of many gods... you must understand that we don't worship those gods ^_^

Yeah, I know all of those verses especially those verses that are misused by people who claim that Jesus is just a man because there can only be one God. No need to remind me of those :thumbsup: Those people did not won even a single debate from our side.

Anyway, back to Psalm. We are talking about "gods"... not God Almighty... hope you got that bro.

What is the reason why God called them "gods"? Is it...

a.) because God was just being sarcastic?
b.) because they are His Children? (Psalms 82:6)
c.) because the word of God came from them? (John 10:35)

If your answer is letter "a", where can you read that God uses sarcasm (stating the opposite of the intended meaning)?

Why would Jesus use a "sarcastic" statement to defend himself from people who accuse him of blasphemy because he calls himself God? That would be illogical right? Those people would just say to Jesus... "Do you mean that there are many Gods? There is no other God beside Him! God is just being sarcastic when He said Ye are gods".

Don't be like them. Please don't get offended, but I prefer "b" and "c" for they are biblical.

When God states something... you can be sure that it is true... for it is impossible for God to lie. (Titus 1:2)

I believe that the Bible does not need to be interpreted, what we need to do is search.

Isaiah 34:16 (http://www.christianforums.com/passage/?book_id=29&chapter=34&verse=16&version=9&context=verse)
Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them.

And that is how Bro. Eli answers every question... he reads the Bible http://esoriano.wordpress.com/

P.S.
Idols, false gods, jesus born on dec 25, jesus with long hair, jesus who had sex with magdelene, jesus made from stone/wood/plastic etc.... I say burn them all!!! Agree?

Mathetes the kerux

30th May 2007, 09:34 AM

Elohim - is this plural in sense or singular?

Don't get me wrong, if polytheism is the worship of many gods... you must understand that we don't worship those gods ^_^

Yeah, I know all of those verses especially those verses that are misused by people who claim that Jesus is just a man because there can only be one God. No need to remind me of those :thumbsup: Those people did not won even a single debate from our side.

Anyway, back to Psalm. We are talking about "gods"... not God Almighty... hope you got that bro.

What is the reason why God called them "gods"? Is it...

a.) because God was just being sarcastic?
b.) because they are His Children? (Psalms 82:6)
c.) because the word of God came from them? (John 10:35)

If your answer is letter "a", where can you read that God uses sarcasm (stating the opposite of the intended meaning)?

Why would Jesus use a "sarcastic" statement to defend himself from people who accuse him of blasphemy because he calls himself God? That would be illogical right? Those people would just say to Jesus... "Do you mean that there are many Gods? There is no other God beside Him! God is just being sarcastic when He said Ye are gods".

Don't be like them. Please don't get offended, but I prefer "b" and "c" for they are biblical.

When God states something... you can be sure that it is true... for it is impossible for God to lie. (Titus 1:2)

I believe that the Bible does not need to be interpreted, what we need to do is search.

Isaiah 34:16 (http://www.christianforums.com/passage/?book_id=29&chapter=34&verse=16&version=9&context=verse)
Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them.

And that is how Bro. Eli answers every question... he reads the Bible http://esoriano.wordpress.com/

P.S.
Idols, false gods, jesus born on dec 25, jesus with long hair, jesus who had sex with magdelene, jesus made from stone/wood/plastic etc.... I say burn them all!!! Agree?
I do agree.

But God is being rhetorical. In context:

Ps 82:5-7
They do not know nor do they understand;
They walk about in darkness;
All the foundations of the earth are shaken.
6 I said, "You are gods,
And all of you are sons of the Most High.
7 "Nevertheless you will die like men
And fall like any one of the princes."
NASU

It is clearly a case of linguistic usage. In any case . . . it doesn't refer to the existence of other "gods" . . . it refers to the exhaltation of the Judges of Israel . . . MEN . . . not gods.

Jesus' quote has the sense of "since they were found to be considered in God's stead . . . and they were men . . . I, who am God, comes to you and you fret that I AM indeed the Great I AM?"
You must remember context . . . the statement isn't being used by Jesus to teach that there are indeed multiple gods . . . but to teach by revealing the hypocrisy and lack of understanding by those coming against Him.

And those Oneness who would desire to use the Isaiah quotes to show that Jesus isn't God . . . obviously haven't read the same titles ascribed to YHWH ascribed to Christ in Revelation.

Elohyim is plural . . . but is also used in singular as well.

Mathetes the kerux

30th May 2007, 09:38 AM

Elohim - is this plural in sense or singular?

Don't get me wrong, if polytheism is the worship of many gods... you must understand that we don't worship those gods ^_^

Yeah, I know all of those verses especially those verses that are misused by people who claim that Jesus is just a man because there can only be one God. No need to remind me of those :thumbsup: Those people did not won even a single debate from our side.

Anyway, back to Psalm. We are talking about "gods"... not God Almighty... hope you got that bro.

What is the reason why God called them "gods"? Is it...

a.) because God was just being sarcastic?
b.) because they are His Children? (Psalms 82:6)
c.) because the word of God came from them? (John 10:35)

If your answer is letter "a", where can you read that God uses sarcasm (stating the opposite of the intended meaning)?

Why would Jesus use a "sarcastic" statement to defend himself from people who accuse him of blasphemy because he calls himself God? That would be illogical right? Those people would just say to Jesus... "Do you mean that there are many Gods? There is no other God beside Him! God is just being sarcastic when He said Ye are gods".

Don't be like them. Please don't get offended, but I prefer "b" and "c" for they are biblical.

When God states something... you can be sure that it is true... for it is impossible for God to lie. (Titus 1:2)

I believe that the Bible does not need to be interpreted, what we need to do is search.

Isaiah 34:16 (http://www.christianforums.com/passage/?book_id=29&chapter=34&verse=16&version=9&context=verse)
Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them.

And that is how Bro. Eli answers every question... he reads the Bible http://esoriano.wordpress.com/

P.S.
Idols, false gods, jesus born on dec 25, jesus with long hair, jesus who had sex with magdelene, jesus made from stone/wood/plastic etc.... I say burn them all!!! Agree?
Ploytheism is the worship of many gods . . . but can also be considered just the belief in many gods . . . while worshipping one . . . although the proper term would be henotheism

See here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henotheism

Christians are supposed to be monotheists . . . as was their Jewish roots and Christ Himself.

Chazper

1st June 2007, 10:03 AM

Mathetes the kerux

1st June 2007, 01:30 PM

Jesus' quote has the sense of "since they were found to be considered in God's stead . . . and they were men . . . I, who am God, comes to you and you fret that I AM indeed the Great I AM?"
You must remember context . . . the statement isn't being used by Jesus to teach that there are indeed multiple gods . . . but to teach by revealing the hypocrisy and lack of understanding by those coming against Him.
-Mathetes the kerux

Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods?
- Christ

Sorry but I prefer what Christ said... I also believe that those "gods" are humans... and they are called "gods" by God.

The word "god" is sacred. God knows how to use the word "god" and its meaning far better than us humans. So if calls His children "gods"... so be it. I will not say that they do not exist just because the meaning of the word "god" does not fit to my own perceived meaning of the word.

But this what I hold to be true.

:preach: 5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords), 6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live. I Cor. 8

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Atheists vs. Bro. Eli http://esoriano.wordpress.com/
No the word GOD is not sacred . . . the name YHWH is. Elohiym and theos are both used across the board for the true God and false gods alike. Your contention doesn't hold.

Again look at the passage in Psalms . . . God was denouncing them . . . not granting them status . . . and the point is that they were not gods anyway . . . they were men. This is clear from the passage.

Jesus uses the term theos from the LXX quote . . . but the Hebrew is elohyim . . . which is used for "great ones" as well as for God or gods . . . and is a term used for the demonic gods of the pagan nations as well as for YHWH.

Paul calls them "so-called" because they are NOT gods at all but demons.

Your hermeneutic is not informed about the langauges.

Mathetes the kerux

1st June 2007, 01:33 PM

Jesus' quote has the sense of "since they were found to be considered in God's stead . . . and they were men . . . I, who am God, comes to you and you fret that I AM indeed the Great I AM?"
You must remember context . . . the statement isn't being used by Jesus to teach that there are indeed multiple gods . . . but to teach by revealing the hypocrisy and lack of understanding by those coming against Him.
-Mathetes the kerux

Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods?
- Christ

Sorry but I prefer what Christ said... I also believe that those "gods" are humans... and they are called "gods" by God.

The word "god" is sacred. God knows how to use the word "god" and its meaning far better than us humans. So if calls His children "gods"... so be it. I will not say that they do not exist just because the meaning of the word "god" does not fit to my own perceived meaning of the word.

But this what I hold to be true.

:preach: 5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords), 6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live. I Cor. 8

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Atheists vs. Bro. Eli http://esoriano.wordpress.com/
The outcome is still the same . . . they are NOT gods . . . they are men.

You were using the Johannine quote to try and prove the existence of other gods . . . but they weren't other gods at all . . . they were men. Ontologically they are created beings . . . and not God or gods. So the end is still the same . . . you can't use the passage to defend the existence of multiple deities . . . for they were men in essence regardless of title.

Chazper

3rd June 2007, 10:19 AM

The outcome is still the same . . . they are NOT gods . . . they are men.

You were using the Johannine quote to try and prove the existence of other gods . . . but they weren't other gods at all . . . they were men. Ontologically they are created beings . . . and not God or gods. So the end is still the same . . . you can't use the passage to defend the existence of multiple deities . . . for they were men in essence regardless of title.

they are men... they were men... they are men... they are created beings... ^_^

You sound like a broken record dude. I'm not in disagreement with that. I am not saying that they are NOT men. Give me a break man.

What I am saying, based on the bible... God said to those men that they are "gods". I'll believe what God had said over what others may say...

:preach: If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater:

You remind me of those false christians that does not believe that Jesus is God... even if they read it in the bible they still don't believe it. They just go on mumbling their own preconceived ideas and interpretations. Don't be like them dude.

:preach: And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.

------------------------------------------------
Atheists vs. Bro. Eli Soriano http://esoriano.wordpress.com/

LivingWordUnity

4th June 2007, 12:21 AM

Jesus is God and the Son of God the Father. You've heard of the Blessed Trinity haven't you?

If Jesus were not divine, He would just be a victim, and His death on the cross would not save anyone.

The Old Testament says that there is no Savior other than God. The New Testament says that Jesus is our only Savior.

Therefore Jesus is God.

Mathetes the kerux

4th June 2007, 12:08 PM

they are men... they were men... they are men... they are created beings... ^_^

You sound like a broken record dude. I'm not in disagreement with that. I am not saying that they are NOT men. Give me a break man.

What I am saying, based on the bible... God said to those men that they are "gods". I'll believe what God had said over what others may say...

:preach: If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater:

You remind me of those false christians that does not believe that Jesus is God... even if they read it in the bible they still don't believe it. They just go on mumbling their own preconceived ideas and interpretations. Don't be like them dude.

:preach: And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.

------------------------------------------------
Atheists vs. Bro. Eli Soriano http://esoriano.wordpress.com/
Ok . . . just for giggles . . . here is the conext of the conversation and your logic . . . or maybve you haven't been clear. But here is the quote:

Is there something wrong if there are many gods? Is it wrong if God acknowledges that there are gods?

:preach: Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods?

If it is written in the bible and I think you have heard Bro. Eli discussed that, why should you be surprise that there are gods?

Your arguement is that the bible says that there are many gods . . . but it doesn't say that at all. Your proof text was a obscure text, that when interpreted in context, doesn't support your point . . . but rather on further investigation reveals that God was addressing mortal created men.

That has been the issue.

God may have given them title of elohyim (which isn't always translated as "god" anyway) . . . but He did not create within them deity . . . the attribute of self existence. They remained men. So there is NO doctrine of "multiple gods" in the Bible.

The Bible is clear that there is ONE God . . . all others are not gods at all . . . but false idols created by the fallen minds of men and fallen angels. Fierce monotheism has always been, and always will be, a centerpiece of the faith of Christianity . . . a tenet that we have inherited from our Judaic roots.

Broken record . . . funny chaz.

Chazper

5th June 2007, 08:36 AM

Your arguement is that the bible says that there are many gods . . . but it doesn't say that at all.

I'm just reading/posting the verses...

God may have given them title of elohyim So now you believe that God acknowledges them as elohyim :)

(which isn't always translated as "god" anyway) . . . whatever it may be translated you said that God acknowledges them as "gods".

Let us get this straight... do you agree with the following.

"A man can not be a god even if God says so."

if you agree... Here is my challenge just to end this broken record thing...

If I can read in the bible that a man was made into a god by God Himself. Will you accept that your preconceived meaning of the word god is unbiblical?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ask Bro. Eli Soriano and the Bible will Answer! http://esoriano.wordpress.com/

Mathetes the kerux

5th June 2007, 09:21 AM

I'm just reading/posting the verses...

So now you believe that God acknowledges them as elohyim :)

whatever it may be translated you said that God acknowledges them as "gods".

Let us get this straight... do you agree with the following.

"A man can not be a god even if God says so."

if you agree... Here is my challenge just to end this broken record thing...

If I can read in the bible that a man was made into a god by God Himself. Will you accept that your preconceived meaning of the word god is unbiblical?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ask Bro. Eli Soriano and the Bible will Answer! http://esoriano.wordpress.com/
The question is one of ontology . . . does God make men into gods . . . the answer is NO. God never changes the inherent make-up of man.

The title "elohiym" was bestowed upon the judges of Israel because they were acting in the stead of God in judging by righteousness the people of God. The passage is one of sarcasim . . . mockery if you will. Every passage must be interpreted within its context to determine meaning . . . hermeneutics 101.

So the meaning of elohiym (much like the word yom) is broad . . . not sacred at all . . . applied broadly in the Bible . . . and doesn't convey some eisogetical sense of God making men into gods.

Chazper

7th June 2007, 08:03 AM

The question is one of ontology . . . does God make men into gods . . . the answer is NO. God never changes the inherent make-up of man.

I'm not concern of the inherent make-up of man. What I am concern at is the rightful use of the word "god" by God Himself in the Bible.

You have your own preconceived meaning of the word "god", but what I am after is the biblical meaning of the word from the rightful authority of the word... God.

Do you accept my challenge or not?

Here is my challenge just to end this broken record thing of yours...

If I can read in the bible that a man was made into a god by God Himself. Will you accept that your preconceived meaning of the word god is unbiblical?

Mathetes the kerux

7th June 2007, 01:44 PM

I'm not concern of the inherent make-up of man. What I am concern at is the rightful use of the word "god" by God Himself in the Bible.

You have your own preconceived meaning of the word "god", but what I am after is the biblical meaning of the word from the rightful authority of the word... God.

Do you accept my challenge or not?

Here is my challenge just to end this broken record thing of yours...

If I can read in the bible that a man was made into a god by God Himself. Will you accept that your preconceived meaning of the word god is unbiblical?
You can't read that He made them into gods . . . this Chaz has been the point. Not my preconcieved notion . . . I know exactly what the terms YHWH, Adonai, El Shaddai, El, El Elyon, Elohyim, etc mean. The only one sacred to God is the tetragram YHWH and the association of Adonai in the stead of YHWH in the Jewish worship rites.

An ascription of a terms does not necessitate a change in ontology . . . you neve have God changing men into gods. Period.

I accept your challenge . . . give me a break down of the Hebrew Chaz . . . you must prove that the passage proof texts you assumption . . . have at it . . . lets see what you can do.

Chazper

8th June 2007, 09:43 AM

you neve have God changing men into gods. Period.

I accept your challenge . . . give me a break down of the Hebrew Chaz . . . you must prove that the passage proof texts you assumption . . . have at it . . . lets see what you can do.

For clarification those men are not YHWH no disagreement in that. The Bible doesn't say that they should be worshiped. The Bible doesn't say that they will not die. The bible doesn't say that they are equal to God. The Bible doesn't say that they are no longer man. The Bible doesn't say that they are co-creator... etc. etc.

What the Bible does say is that they are "gods". And the Bible say that someone, a man was made god by God Himself.

I will not interpret nor should you. I will just read/post the verse with the hebrew equivalent that a man was made god <elohiym - No. 430> by God <YHWH - No. 3068> Himself.

Is http://www.bju.edu/bible/ good for you? Or if you want some other online english bible that will link the word to it's corresponding hebrew word... just provide one.

Do you still accept the challenge?

Note: I'm not doing this to ridicule you... what I hope is for us to learn to accept what the Bible say versus our preconceived perceptions/beliefs that were passed down by centuries of false doctrines.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ask Bro. Eli Soriano and the Bible will Answer! http://esoriano.wordpress.com/

Mathetes the kerux

8th June 2007, 05:45 PM

What the Bible does say is that they are "gods". And the Bible say that someone, a man was made god by God Himself.

No . . . that is not what it says. It says that God CALLED them gods . . . not that they were MADE gods. Good read the verse . . . that is all that it says. You are insinuating generation . . . that God MADE them into gods (however you define their status). He did not. The verse is too obscure to read anything more into it than that.

The verse would have to say " YHWH fell upon the mere mortals and changed them into what they were not before . . . He made them into divine beings" in order to construe what you are saying. But this is not what is said.

Elohyim is used of the judges who stood in God's stead (ex. 22:8-9) for men who were not gods but called "mighty ones."

The same term is used to describe the false idols worshipped by the heathen . . . yet we know that they are demons and not gods at all . . . neither are the idols . . . they are wood and stone and metal . . . not gods at all but yet given the title elohyim. Molech, Baal, Ashtoreth, the idols of Egypt . . . gods? No . . . not at all . . . but given the title even though ontologically they were not gods at all.

The Bible is full of these examples.

You would have to prove that not only did God title them . . . but God changed them . . . otherwise all you have is a title of honor and not a change in essence. And without a change in essence/nature/ontology they are NOT gods and He never made them into gods . . . but just entitled them with an ascription of honor.

Not to mention the Hebraic poetry . . . the first stanza is synonomous with the second . . . "ye are gods" is interpreted by "all sons of the most high." This further shows that it was not a change in ontology . . .

Chazper

10th June 2007, 12:52 AM

No . . . that is not what it says. It says that God CALLED them gods . . . not that they were MADE gods.

take it easy... cool down... clear your mind... you are not even trying to understand what i'm saying... see what you did... you are putting those two sentence as one...

The first one came from Psalms 82:1 - God CALLED them gods. Agree? I believe you agree. That's one.

And the other one is my CHALLENGE for you. Since you said that "you neve(r) have God changing men into gods. Period." I will show you otherwise.

Do you still accept my challenge or not?

Here is my challenge just to end this broken record thing of yours...

If I can read in the bible that a man was made god by God Himself. Will you accept that your preconceived meaning of the word god is unbiblical?

I will not interpret nor should you. I will just read/post the verse with the hebrew equivalent that a man was made god <elohiym - No. 430> by God <YHWH - No. 3068> Himself.

Is http://www.bju.edu/bible/ good for you? Or if you want some other online english bible that will link the word to it's corresponding hebrew word... just provide one.

Do you accept or will you decline the challenge?

Mathetes the kerux

10th June 2007, 01:08 AM

see what you did... you are putting those two sentence as one...

No Chaz . . . you did this:

What the Bible does say is that they are "gods". And the Bible say that someone, a man was made god by God Himself.

Emphasis mine.

Perhaps you aren't explaining yourself clearly . . . all I am doing is responding to your assertions.
No man was ever
made god by God Himself.
and
with the hebrew equivalent that a man was made god

Men were CALLED (not MADE) el ohyim (not even always translated as "god") by YHWH (ehayah esher ehayah . . . I am that I am). Hence God (YHWH) SAID (speech . . . not divine creative process of anykind), not MADE.

And yes I ACCEPT YOUR CHALLENGE

(for the second time)

-Z-

11th June 2007, 04:48 AM

Why proceed with the challene if you are unwilling to translate? Are you afraid of the original language and it's meaning as interpreted using the principles of hermeneutics? If you won't translate it I WILL so either way you are going to be proven wrong. Just let me know.

Chazper

12th June 2007, 06:52 AM

Z,

Who are you talking to? That is not willing to translate? :confused:
I think Matt is willing to use online tools to see the equivalent Hebrew words of the verse that I will present... to see the words "elohiym" and "YHWH". Just no self interpretation Matt ok.

Matt,

Since you accepted my challenge... is http://www.bju.edu/bible/ good for you? It has direct link to the Hebrew equivalent of the words in a verse. We will use it to see the Hebrew equivalent of the verse that I will present. If you prefer another reference or if you have another easy way to see the equivalent Hebrew word in an English verse do let me know before I present the verse.

Why proceed with the challene if you are unwilling to translate? Are you afraid of the original language and it's meaning as interpreted using the principles of hermeneutics? If you won't translate it I WILL so either way you are going to be proven wrong. Just let me know.

Mathetes the kerux

13th June 2007, 06:14 AM

Z,

Who are you talking to? That is not willing to translate? :confused:
I think Matt is willing to use online tools to see the equivalent Hebrew words of the verse that I will present... to see the words "elohiym" and "YHWH". Just no self interpretation Matt ok.

Matt,

Since you accepted my challenge... is http://www.bju.edu/bible/ good for you? It has direct link to the Hebrew equivalent of the words in a verse. We will use it to see the Hebrew equivalent of the verse that I will present. If you prefer another reference or if you have another easy way to see the equivalent Hebrew word in an English verse do let me know before I present the verse.
Just post the interlinear . . . that is what I have on my comp.

But it seems like the link is OK.

Chazper

14th June 2007, 07:13 AM

Men were CALLED (not MADE) el ohyim (not even always translated as "god") by YHWH (ehayah esher ehayah . . . I am that I am). Hence God (YHWH) SAID (speech . . . not divine creative process of anykind), not MADE.

And yes I ACCEPT YOUR CHALLENGE

(for the second time)

Here is the challenge

If I can read in the bible that a man was made god by God Himself. You will accept that your preconceived meaning of the word god is unbiblical. If I can't read such, I will accept that my belief is unbiblical.

Conditions:
I will not interpret nor should you. I will just read/post the verse with the hebrew equivalent that a man was made god <elohiym - No. 430> by God <YHWH - No. 3068> Himself.

We will use http://www.bju.edu/bible/ to see the corresponding hebrew word.

The challenge was accepted with all of the above conditions.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Exodus 7:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet. - KJV

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

17 out of 18 English Bible used the word "god".

See corresponding Hebrew equivalent of the word "LORD" and "god". http://www.bju.edu/bible/bible.php?b=exod&c=7&v=1&d=7&w=1

LORD: Y@hovah {yeh-ho-vaw'}
god: 'elohiym {el-o-heem'}

Only two possible reply. Either you accept that God made a man into a god (in this case God (YHWH) made Moses a god (elohiym) to Pharaoh), or you will try to make your own self interpretation to rationalize your preconceived meaning of the word "god". But you have accepted the conditions of this challenge, so I believe you will hold to your word.

This end my participation on this little debate of ours. I invite everyone to study, scrutinize, examine our faith.

To God be the glory!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ask Bro. Eli Soriano and the Bible will answer http://esoriano.wordpress.com/

Mathetes the kerux

14th June 2007, 07:48 AM

Here is the challenge

If I can read in the bible that a man was made god by God Himself. You will accept that your preconceived meaning of the word god is unbiblical. If I can't read such, I will accept that my belief is unbiblical.

Conditions:
I will not interpret nor should you. I will just read/post the verse with the hebrew equivalent that a man was made god <elohiym - No. 430> by God <YHWH - No. 3068> Himself.

We will use http://www.bju.edu/bible/ to see the corresponding hebrew word.

The challenge was accepted with all of the above conditions.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Exodus 7:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet. - KJV

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

17 out of 18 English Bible used the word "god".

See corresponding Hebrew equivalent of the word "LORD" and "god". http://www.bju.edu/bible/bible.php?b=exod&c=7&v=1&d=7&w=1

LORD: Y@hovah {yeh-ho-vaw'}
god: 'elohiym {el-o-heem'}

Only two possible reply. Either you accept that God made a man into a god (in this case God (YHWH) made Moses a god (elohiym) to Pharaoh), or you will try to make your own self interpretation to rationalize your preconceived meaning of the word "god". But you have accepted the conditions of this challenge, so I believe you will hold to your word.

This end my participation on this little debate of ours. I invite everyone to study, scrutinize, examine our faith.

To God be the glory!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ask Bro. Eli Soriano and the Bible will answer http://esoriano.wordpress.com/
Ok . . .

OT:430
occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright (c) 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Elohiym is not always "god" in the sense of diety . . . it depends on context . . .

so lets look at the context

"I have made you" a variant of Na'than . . . to appoint . . . ascribe . . . assign . . . bestow . . . consider
OT:5414
a primitive root; to give, used with greatest latitude of application
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright (c) 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

A very broad term . . . that connotes bestowal

verses

As'ah . . . to MAKE/CREATE
OT:6213
a primitive root; to do or make
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright (c) 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

or even more specific

Ba'rah . . . a term that connotes brand NEW creation . . . something that was not and now is . . . a change in beingness . . . or ontology
OT:1254
a primitive root; (absolutely) to create
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright (c) 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

a term ONLY ascribed to God in creating.

So . . . Ex. does NOT say He CREATED man into a god . . . but that He bestowed on him title in the stead as a representative of God. This is the problem with trying to read English from a Hebrew text . . . so sorry . . . God did not MAKE man (in the sense of creating in him godhood . . . making him a "god") into a god . . . the text would have to read Ba'rah . . . it does not. So Bro. Eli and you Chaz. are wrong . . . there is one true God and no others. You contention is wrong.

Chazper

14th June 2007, 08:42 AM

Ok . . .

Elohiym is not always "god" in the sense of diety . . . it depends on context . . .

so lets look at the context

"I have made you" a variant of Na'than . . . to appoint . . . ascribe . . . assign . . . bestow . . . consider

A very broad term . . . that connotes bestowal

verses

As'ah . . . to MAKE/CREATE

or even more specific

Ba'rah . . . a term that connotes brand NEW creation . . . something that was not and now is . . . a change in beingness . . . or ontology

a term ONLY ascribed to God in creating.

So . . . Ex. does NOT say He CREATED man into a god . . . but that He bestowed on him title in the stead as a representative of God. This is the problem with trying to read English from a Hebrew text . . . so sorry . . . God did not MAKE man (in the sense of creating in him godhood . . . making him a "god") into a god . . . the text would have to read Ba'rah . . . it does not. So Bro. Eli and you Chaz. are wrong . . . there is one true God and no others. You contention is wrong.

There you go... your own interpretation. And your misleading the viewers to what I believe. :doh:See post 34 http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=35312061&postcount=34

:preach: 5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords), 6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live. I Cor. 8

Don't mislead the readers about my belief. I read... you self interpret.

Mathetes the kerux

15th June 2007, 06:36 AM

There you go... your own interpretation. And your misleading the viewers to what I believe. :doh:See post 34 http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=35312061&postcount=34

:preach: 5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords), 6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live. I Cor. 8

Don't mislead the readers about my belief. I read... you self interpret.
Do you read Hebrew? Do you read Greek? Aramaic

If not, and you look to English or any other non-biblical language, THEN YOU ARE READING SOMEONE'S INTERPRETATION.

You arguement is therefore fundamentally flawed Chaz.

In debates like this, it is not sufficient to just read . . . you MUST dive into the nuance and linguistic usage of the language. I have done this to enage in this:

my statement:

Dude do you realize that this guy Bro. Eli believes that there are multiple gods!? That is ploytheism! He calls it a congregation of gods!

to which you replied . . .

Is there something wrong if there are many gods? Is it wrong if God acknowledges that there are gods?

and

why should you be surprise that there are gods?

Your position is that there are many gods . . . but that only the one true God is to be worshipped . . . am I wrong?

My case against you . . . is that while people, demons, pieces of wood . . . may be referred to as gods . . . it IS NEVER IN THE SAME SENSE AS THE ONE TRUE GOD and therefore must be understood differently . . . this is supported by linguistic analysis . . . contextual analysis . . . interpreting Scripture with other Scripture.

It seems as if Bro. Eli is laying this foundation . . . of multiple gods to try and maintain that Jesus is a god . . . but not THE GOD . . . God the Father.

So in lieu of this . . . I have to say NO. The Bible depicts terms ascribed to some that are the term "god" but that does not make them in essence truly gods . . . they are not ontologicaly gods at all . . . therefore . . . while they may be CALLED gods . . . the reality is that they ARE NOT REALLY gods at all.

Your above quoted statements are not statements that say "God just called them gods" but ARE statements of reality being that there ARE gods . . .

-Z-

17th June 2007, 01:19 AM

The fundamental flaw in your argument Chaz is that you are not allowing for the word god to have any meaning but for diety. This is false. Have you looked into the root of the word god? What does it mean in the original hebrew aramaic whatever. It is not restricted to diety. Nor is the term lord restricted to diety. They are a far cry in direct interpretation from a title such as 'YHVH'. Reading from our extremely weak language doesn't cut it MOST OF THE TIME.

Mathetes the kerux

19th June 2007, 06:32 AM

Spiritofprophecy

2nd August 2007, 03:25 PM

Greetings in the name of Jesus: :)

This is one of the most misunderstood verses in Bible.

To say " Jesus is the son of God" meaning Gods offspring descendant, as our fleshly sons are; is a total miss understanding of Jewish terms.

" Son of God" is to say Flesh indwelt by God. or God becoming flesh. Begotten of God, or comes from.

Some say the Real God cannot be divided; which God cannot, But God can have many arms and faces. And an Omnipotent God can do anything, including becoming flesh to suffer and die. Some cannot accept that God would want or have desire to do such a thing. Which would be to Judge Gods motives and desires; which is folly of man to Judge God.

If God is Omnipotent; it Means, and mandats Only One God: then Jesus is either God or not. And if Jesus is God, he must also be with or part of The Almighty God, just in the flesh.

As so many scriptures do attest and avow. And the day shall come when every tongue shall Wag, " Jesus is Lord" :thumbsup:

I pray no one takes offense by my words. God bless all in C.F. and all who use it.
</IMG>

epyon

6th August 2007, 06:57 PM

Jesus sit at the right hand side of God.

Spiritofprophecy

7th August 2007, 06:22 PM

Jesus sit at the right hand side of God.
Greetings in the name of Jesus:

I would like to give some historic truth to " sit on the right side of God"..this term is used as a term of (jewish root)is someone in authority. or position of authority.
God being spirit, and Jesus also: seeing Jesus, you also see the father. is Gods Image, as Man is the image of God. which God is Jesus. in right side in place of authority.

One God Omnipotent. means Undivided, but has many names and faces and offices of power.

I pray my words do not offend any. God bless Christian Forums and all who use it.

PaladinGirl

7th August 2007, 06:24 PM

Jesus is both the Son of God and God!

Spiritofprophecy

7th August 2007, 06:36 PM

Here is the challenge

If I can read in the bible that a man was made god by God Himself. You will accept that your preconceived meaning of the word god is unbiblical. If I can't read such, I will accept that my belief is unbiblical.

Conditions:
I will not interpret nor should you. I will just read/post the verse with the hebrew equivalent that a man was made god <elohiym - No. 430> by God <YHWH - No. 3068> Himself.

We will use http://www.bju.edu/bible/ to see the corresponding hebrew word.

The challenge was accepted with all of the above conditions.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Exodus 7:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet. - KJV

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

17 out of 18 English Bible used the word "god".

See corresponding Hebrew equivalent of the word "LORD" and "god". http://www.bju.edu/bible/bible.php?b=exod&c=7&v=1&d=7&w=1

LORD: Y@hovah {yeh-ho-vaw'}
god: 'elohiym {el-o-heem'}

Only two possible reply. Either you accept that God made a man into a god (in this case God (YHWH) made Moses a god (elohiym) to Pharaoh), or you will try to make your own self interpretation to rationalize your preconceived meaning of the word "god". But you have accepted the conditions of this challenge, so I believe you will hold to your word.

This end my participation on this little debate of ours. I invite everyone to study, scrutinize, examine our faith.

To God be the glory!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ask Bro. Eli Soriano and the Bible will answer http://esoriano.wordpress.com/

Dear chazper:

I agree with some of your words; but the use of Jehovah, which is not written in KJV. does not translate as God or elohiem, or Lord.

In hebrew God is Eloheim, Lord is Adoniah. and yahweh, is " God is" And Johovah. would be if spoken would be " God that exists" or " God the God is"

Let me add one more thing " Yahweh" is strickly Hebrew. and two words combined yah and weh, and both words are two of the most used words in hebrew. Used in many different forms. and weh pronounce today as Zay or zey is the most used verb tense today. As in past

yahweh has two meaning depending on who says it;
If God himself comes to us and says,yahweh yahweh. Its I am that I am. but If I say. "Yahweh hath sent me." or any Human.; its God is hath sent me. yah is always short form for God, lest god say ya, which means its "I".

showing how simplictic and generic those two words are; yah or ya and weh are "I" and " am". which also can be termed. "exist."

I pray my words do not offend any, God bless C.F. and all who use it.