The Real Orthodoxy

[JustinHesychast]

Forgive me for yet another thread... a lot on my mind lately. OK, so... I know this cradle Orthodox. They have been to TAW before and says that converts vs. cradles are like night and day. A Russian Orthodox is much different from an American convert, for example. And not in a particularly good way (they thought otherwise :P).

This may... I dunno, touch on a few toes. Forgive me. But my friend said that TAW was largely fundamentalists who disliked everything Western. As opposed to, say, a Russian cradle, who was more open to Western teachings and nowhere near as fundamentalist. My friend also said that cradles party hard... like, big time hard, on major holidays such as Easter or Christmas. Lots of sausage and lots of alcohol. As in, to the point of being drunk big time.

I'm kind of worried, now. :help:

[repentant]

Don't worry. Some cradles go overboard because Orthodox to them is more cultural than religious. I have seen this. I see both as being fundemantal. I am fundemantal. I think Orthodox is Orthodoxy, and should never change to please anyone. Most convert's I have seen, well mostly on TAW, seem to be the same. I also think converts are more pious then most cradles I know. They seem to be more into it than the avg. cradle. I guess it is because converts chose it for what it is, and weren't born into it, so that Greek and Orthodox culture, or Russian and Orthodox culture, etc. don't get mixed up with them. You would be surprised how many cradle Greeks I know, think some Greek customs are actually Orthodox traditions, and they are not.

[JustinHesychast]

Yes, I don't know why I thought it'd be any different than a Protestant church. My church has its people who "play church", and I suppose Orthodoxy is the same. I just expected that everyone who was Orthodox was... I dunno, different.

*is too naive*

[Dewi Sant]

I'm sorry your friend said such hurtful things, both about cradle vs. convert and this community.


No person is born Orthodox.

Everyone has to be born anew.


I would have thought that the person who, willingly has faced the troubles of converting to Orthodoxy, particularly in places where Orthodoxy is little prevalent is more Orthodox than the person who was born into an Orthodox family and goes for Pascha once a year.

Of course, there is no such thing as 'more Orthodox'. What I really meant was, the first person, the 'convert' so to speak, is of greater reward than the person who has known nothing but Orthodoxy.


My friend also said that cradles party hard... like, big time hard, on major holidays such as Easter or Christmas. Lots of sausage and lots of alcohol. As in, to the point of being drunk big time.

For many, this is the only festivals they go to.
At my home parish, we do feast greatly on Pascha..and I confess, I brought the Ouzo this year ^_^ (forgot how potent that stuff is ;) )


Orthodoxy is not about being drunk, or eating too much. It is about prayer.





Something I also don't like is this whole Greek versus Russian divide. In reality, no such divide exists, but I have read on the internet, Russians calling Greeks heretics (I haven't yet seen the reverse....but there are more Russians than Greeks, so I'm more likely to hear their voice.). They call Greeks heretics for using organs in their music, yet, I have never been to such an Orthodox service.


Please, do ignore any derogatory comments on the Orthodox Faith.

It is quite ineffable and certainly deserves no wordy attack.

[repentant]

I must say I really dislike the organs in Church. But I wouldn't say it is heretical. Some just like to throw that word around. But of course I believe the organ issue is mostly prevelant in Greek Churches in America, but never in a Monstery.

Some people like organs*. I think they drown out the choir. The organ is usually much louder than the choir. not to mention in a few of the hymns, it sounds like I am at a baseball game..

*Of course this is usually from the converts, who are used to it I guess..most of the yiayias, don't like it either

[JustinHesychast]

I just always thought getting drunk to celebrate His birthday or His dying for us to be secular because of what the holidays have turned into in modern society.

[kamikat]

Well, I come from an odd background. I am a convert but was raised with a cradle dad. Sure, at every event (holidays, weddings, baptisms) there were big parties. I'm sure even the converts here will tell you they partied after the Pascha service. There's nothing wrong with that. We fast so we can really enjoy the feasting. I wouldn't say a cradle is more open to Western teaching, but that most converts have left the Western teaching to become Orthodox. Every church has it's pew warmers, we're no different.

[kamikat]

I just always thought getting drunk to celebrate His birthday or His dying for us to be secular because of what the holidays have turned into in modern society

It's not secular. We abstain from alcohol for 40 days before Christmas or Lent. We learn to be thankful for the things we fast from. Enjoying them on a happy occasion is only natural.

[JustinHesychast]

So getting drunk is a sin except on major holidays? *boggles*

[repentant]

So getting drunk is a sin except on major holidays? *boggles*

No...

[kamikat]

So getting drunk is a sin except on major holidays? *boggles*

Did I say "everyone gets wasted"? No, we don't all get wasted. Having one or two drinks doesn't get you wasted. For some, not even 3 or 4 drinks would get them wasted. It's a sin to get wasted, throwing up drunk. It's not a sin to have a drink with dinner or a couple beers on the weekend. I'm assuming that since you're a teenager, you probably have never had a drink. One doesn't get wasted on the first sip.

[JustinHesychast]

Ah, OK. It sounded like there was a big party where people get wasted. :P Sorry!

And yes, I have. Bleck. Disgusting stuff. I've only tried beer and some wine coolers, though. And something clear and strong. I forgot what it was. Or maybe it was a light brown... *shrug*

[repentant]

You're 15, lay of the alchohol...:cool:

[Dewi Sant]

Wine must never be chilled.
Red wine never, ever, ever, ever should be chilled!!!

Beer is not that clear pale colour, beer is good, British ale, full of iron and rich in colour and taste. :)

Liqueors must always be served warm and if mixed, must be served with a warm mixer also.



For a good wine grape, I suggest Merlot, though, to a beginner, Valpollicella.
Surprisingly I find Bulgaria is producing some excellent Merlot at the moment.

For beer, I suggest (though it may be difficult to get over there), Lancaster Bomber. It is a rich dark Bitter which is brewed here, in the North West of England in the traditional way by the well established Thwaites brewers. It is so beautiful...no beer compares!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v376/Christopher88/Bomber.jpg

OK, takes off drink hat. :)



Don't drink underage...find a country which will serve you :P

[Dewi Sant]

lol, my post was slightly out of place.

I never thought of Britain as really having a culture but when I hear of people never having wine for so many years, it amazes me.

I've had wine with every Sunday (and important) meal since I can remember. Never have I got drunk.

I don't know what the law is in the States, but over here, 18 is the limit for purchasing alcohol, 14 if with parents/guardians and a meal, 5+ at home (private property) with parents.


I think it is a most ridiculous system in America where children are not allowed to have alcohol, so when they reach the age limit, they 'binge'.

[E.C.]

Some cradles and/or converts, mainly the fanatical sort, seem to have this opinion of themselves that they are the only true Orthodox in the world; they are just short of being Christ reincarnate. From my experience this seems to be in cradles more so than converts.

Christmas and Pascha are times of nothing but shear celebration and happiness. For me, they are the two out of a few times of the year when all I can do is smile. :D

Celebrate, party, but keep it all under control. Cradle or convert.

[Dewi Sant]

Some cradles and/or converts, mainly the fanatical sort, seem to have this opinion of themselves that they are the only true Orthodox in the world; they are just short of being Christ reincarnate. From my experience this seems to be in cradles more so than converts.

Christmas and Pascha are times of nothing but shear celebration and happiness. For me, they are the two out of a few times of the year when all I can do is smile. :D

Celebrate, party, but keep it all under control. Cradle or convert.

That is so increadibly true!

Infact, the very remembrance of Pascha makes the muscles in my face spasm into some peculair shape revealing my teeth, mainly noticeable round the mouth :D

It got so bad at Pascha that when the priests came out to declare "CHRIST IS RISEN!!!", I had to stop singing because I couldn't sing and hugely smile at the same time.

Woah! That is the greatest moment of my life!

CHRIST IS RISEN!!!


Oh the price I would pay to put Pascha in a box.

[ufonium2]

I have belonged to one parish that was probably 50/50, Slavs/converts, one that was all-convert-all-the-time, and my current parish is mostly Arab, probably 70%, with quite a few Slavs and Greeks as well.

My personal observations, which are just that:

The Russians at my home parish were far more "fundamentalist" than the average convert. We're talking six-year-olds standing perfectly still for three hours worth of church. In fact, that's kind of a stereotype of Russians in America, especially of ROCOR churches.

The all-convert-all-the-time parish was anti-Eastern if they were anti-anything. They even used these horrendous "American tones" that sounded like a failed freshman music composition project, simply because they were American and not Russian or Greek. They were also at least as bigoted towards "ethnic Orthodox" as I've ever seen a cradle be about converts.

The Arabs at my church don't normally show up for vespers. But, they shoulder the majority of the organizational burden of the church, including charity and outreach. They also don't burn out after a few years like some of the more zealous converts have a tendency to do, so maybe there's something to be said for that approach.

I don't think there are two Orthodox worlds as your friend seems to think. But we're not monolithic, and I think that's a good thing. Trust me, parishes where everyone has the same background and behaves the same way are creepy. Variety is the spice of life.

[Photios]

I've most always gotten along great with the cradles I've met. I have met the overzealous converts, but many do go through a phase like that, which I have often heard referred to jokingly as "convertitis."

AS, when the time comes, you'd probably like mixed drinks, or possibly mead. I like whisky for the taste, and because I can control myself better when I drink it. I just know when I'm at the lower limit before I have too much. Roughly three shots an hour, if you're wondering.

[E.C.]

I've gotten along with almost all the cradles I know.

The best are the babushkas. When I was in Miami, there was this 85 year-old Romanian lady who made THE best food I have tasted.


Hold off on the booze until you're legal.

[jckstraw72]

So getting drunk is a sin except on major holidays? *boggles*

unfortunately some Orthodox seem to think this ... it boggles my mind also that alcohol is seen as necessary at a holiday and basically every outing. its not that ppl drink that bothers me, its that they very nearly idolize alcohol, to the point of sitting only with certain ppl in restaurants so the 21 yr olds can be together at a table, or going out of their way to get a 6 pack to watch a movie (if its only about the taste then how come no one stops to pick up a carton of orange juice ever?), or even trying to talk ppl who dont drink into having a shot with them, or underagers getting upset that they werent supposed to drink at Pascha. if you need alcohol to celebrate Pascha then theres a serious problem there. if Christ is Risen doesnt do it for ya, then what exactly are you celebrating?

[Akathist]

You're 15, lay of the alchohol...:cool:


:amen:

[Photios]

You're 15, lay of the alchohol...:cool:

Really.

It's not as great as people make it out, no matter how much of it you drink.

[gzt]

oh, piffle. don't get so emo about every little thing. I mean, yeah, this web board is a little unbalanced, but not really in the way you'd think. I certainly would agree that this board is not representative of what you find in a parish, it's the internet and people are weird. But, you know, don't worry about it so much.

some of us drink on occasion. regrettably, some do to a sinful extent on occasion.

[RobNJ]

This may... I dunno, touch on a few toes. Forgive me. But my friend said that TAW was largely fundamentalists who disliked everything Western. As opposed to, say, a Russian cradle, who was more open to Western teachings and nowhere near as fundamentalist. My friend also said that cradles party hard... like, big time hard, on major holidays such as Easter or Christmas. Lots of sausage and lots of alcohol. As in, to the point of being drunk big time.


http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a74/NJRob/fractured-fairy-tales-logo2copy.jpg

'nuff said

[choirfiend]

unfortunately some Orthodox seem to think this ... it boggles my mind also that alcohol is seen as necessary at a holiday and basically every outing. its not that ppl drink that bothers me, its that they very nearly idolize alcohol, to the point of sitting only with certain ppl in restaurants so the 21 yr olds can be together at a table, or going out of their way to get a 6 pack to watch a movie (if its only about the taste then how come no one stops to pick up a carton of orange juice ever?), or even trying to talk ppl who dont drink into having a shot with them, or underagers getting upset that they werent supposed to drink at Pascha. if you need alcohol to celebrate Pascha then theres a serious problem there. if Christ is Risen doesnt do it for ya, then what exactly are you celebrating?
That's the nature of being with immature college children who come from drinking families and enjoy drinking---and has nothing to do with Orthodoxy. It just about growing up and not acting like an idiot. Keep waiting, maybe they'll get there in 5-10 years.

It also has to do with maturely enjoying a drink or two with a meal and not wanting to be restricted from doing so b/c ppl at the table are under 21.
And it has to do with taste--that's exactly why they dont pick up a carton of orange juice---Orange juice doesn't taste like beer!

[kamikat]

I found that at 21, everyone was like that. However, as taste changes, so does behavior. It's easy to drink a ton of Miller Lite and get wasted. When one starts to develope a taste for good beer, most people don't chug back 6 packs of $20 beer.

[jckstraw72]

And it has to do with taste--that's exactly why they dont pick up a carton of orange juice---Orange juice doesn't taste like beer!

my point was that other drinks are good, but no one cares to go out of their way to buy them. ppl act like alcohol is necessary to have when you get together. for instance, for our superbowl party someone sent a facebook message saying it will have anything you want! so i said i want a Compline at halftime (i wasnt fully serious, but i certainly wouldnt have minded doing one), but of course theres no way thats going to happen at a superbowl party, but you can sure bet theres going to be tons of alcohol and someone specifically making mixed drinks for everyone. why must there be alcohol, but no ones going to want to pray at halftime? its things like that that get on my nerves.

and yeah i know its not an Orthodox issue, but i certainly hear a good bit of excuses from Orthodox ppl ... oh well that 18 yr old is Russian so of course he must drink!

[Monica, child of God]

Some converts are zealous and some cradles are zealous. In general it isn't really great to focus too much on other people's faith and praxis whether ideal or less than. It can easily lead to judging. Whether or not people around you are working our their salvation, you should be. In the end you will only have to answer for yourself.

As for the alcohol: I haven't seen anything way over the top during the holidays but that is just my experience. Yes there is beer and wine including champagne and people drink enough to "gladden their hearts" as the psalm says. Feasting can be a holy thing.

M.

[Thekla]

Well, with so many people around, alcohol probably cuts down on the
transmission of bacteria, viruses, etc.:thumbsup:

[Michael the Iconographer]

I just always thought getting drunk to celebrate His birthday or His dying for us to be secular because of what the holidays have turned into in modern society.
If Christ being risen from the dead is not a reason in the world to have a celebration, then there is no other reason to celebrate ANYTHING at all!

[jckstraw72]

If Christ being risen from the dead is not a reason in the world to have a celebration, then there is no other reason to celebrate ANYTHING at all!

i think he meant that getting in drunk in order to celebrate, or getting drunk on those days is what is secular.

[Michael the Iconographer]

i think he meant that getting in drunk in order to celebrate, or getting drunk on those days is what is secular.
Getting drunk should not be done, but there is nothing wrong with having a glass or two of wine or beer to celebrate the Resurrection!

[Dewi Sant]

May I say that I think the best way to explain this is simply to go to an Orthodox Feast and take part.

At Pascha, I don't remember anyone getting drunk and yet, everyone enjoyed themselves greatly.

It is, the feast of the resurrection, not a drinking contest.

Infact, it is meat which people were most concerned with.


It isn't long now till Holy Nativity :) (1/3rd through year already!?! Would you believe it!)

[kamikat]

This is just a theory, but I think the reason many Christian groups think alcohol is a sin is because they don't get the cycle of feasting and fasting. Many Christian groups don't celebrate Easter and Christmas because they are of "pagan" or Catholic origin. To be honest, this is the reason I only spent 1 year in a liberal church of Christ. They didn't do anything special for the holidays. To someone raised without real Christian holy days, how can understand what it means to celebrate in a Christian way. All they see if people getting drunk at frat parties or 4th of July picnics. We, as Christians, fast in order to understand the feasting. We understand what it is to celebrate, in a truly human way, Christ! We don't condone getting drunk at frat parties or 4th of July picnics, either. But someone from a drinking-is-a-sin group would never be exposed to responsible Christian celebrating.

[Akathist]

This is just a theory, but I think the reason many Christian groups think alcohol is a sin is because they don't get the cycle of feasting and fasting. Many Christian groups don't celebrate Easter and Christmas because they are of "pagan" or Catholic origin. To be honest, this is the reason I only spent 1 year in a liberal church of Christ. They didn't do anything special for the holidays. To someone raised without real Christian holy days, how can understand what it means to celebrate in a Christian way. All they see if people getting drunk at frat parties or 4th of July picnics. We, as Christians, fast in order to understand the feasting. We understand what it is to celebrate, in a truly human way, Christ! We don't condone getting drunk at frat parties or 4th of July picnics, either. But someone from a drinking-is-a-sin group would never be exposed to responsible Christian celebrating.

I especially agree with the idea that many other Christians don't get our "Feasts" mainly because they don't do a communal fast or they don't do a very long church organized fast.

We celebrate what should be celebrated by having fun and eating and having a bit to drink. Did i overeat during the Feasts...Yes. I did. Did I drink alchohol. Yes, I had a taste of flavored vodka as there was a table set up with several different flavors. I tasted one. I didn't drink too much but I ate too much. Is eating too much a sin? yes. Alcohol drinking is no worse a sin then my overeating.

How is this different then a party where a group celebrates a football game and over eats and drinks beer, etc? Or the party for graduating college where often drinking is involved as well as lots of rich food.

The difference is that we are celebrating the Risen Christ! We are honoring the tradition of our church. We are breaking a very long hard fast.

My Priest says that if we will not feast we should not fast.

[Orthocat]

Everything should be done in moderation, as excess is a way of satisfying the passions, be it drink, food, or anything else that can lead to temptations of the flesh.

Don't try to compare protestant beliefs and views with that of the Orthodox. The Holy Oil will always rise to the top of the grape juice, as the two cannot be reconciled.

My little group has cradle Greek, Russian, Romanian, Egyptian, Spanish, and us convert mutt Americans. :cool: I have never noticed any cliques, outside of language barriers which we are all working to overcome. (I have learned the Lord's Prayer in Greek pretty well and am now working on the Russian).


Concern yourself with God and prayer and worship, and you won't consider who's with what group and what they are drinking. That is nothing but thoughts of the evil ones attempting to creep in and distract from a higher purpose.

Peace.

[Michael the Iconographer]

This is just a theory, but I think the reason many Christian groups think alcohol is a sin is because they don't get the cycle of feasting and fasting. Many Christian groups don't celebrate Easter and Christmas because they are of "pagan" or Catholic origin. To be honest, this is the reason I only spent 1 year in a liberal church of Christ. They didn't do anything special for the holidays. To someone raised without real Christian holy days, how can understand what it means to celebrate in a Christian way. All they see if people getting drunk at frat parties or 4th of July picnics. We, as Christians, fast in order to understand the feasting. We understand what it is to celebrate, in a truly human way, Christ! We don't condone getting drunk at frat parties or 4th of July picnics, either. But someone from a drinking-is-a-sin group would never be exposed to responsible Christian celebrating.
Brilliantly said!!!

[Lotar]

I don't really get the whole convert vs cradle thing. Some people assume that converts must be pious because they made the effort to convert, and that cradles are less pious because they were born into it. It all seems kind of stupid to me. I know converts who rarely go to services and rarely follow the advice of their spiritual father, and I know cradles who attend just about every service as humanly possible and are just plain beautiful saintly people.

At least in my experience, there is no real link between piety and at what age the person was baptized.


Oh, and beer, wine, whiskey, ect. are all much beter than orange juice. ;) :P

[jckstraw72]

Oh, and beer, wine, whiskey, ect. are all much beter than orange juice.

surely thou jesteth!

[ufonium2]

surely thou jesteth!


I hate orange juice. I would rather drink lemon juice, or possibly lysol. I want to go brush my teeth right now, just thinking about orange juice:sick:

[jckstraw72]

I hate orange juice. I would rather drink lemon juice, or possibly lysol. I want to go brush my teeth right now, just thinking about orange juice

truly thou art impoverished then!

[All4Christ]

I think it's just a mindset that is hard to overcome, as someone coming from a conservative evangelical protestant background - coming into a Orthodox Church. Do I believe drinking is a sin? No. Am I used to people drinking in church? Definitely not. In the evangelical churches - if they are to the point that they don't think it's a sin - they at least don't do that in church because they see it as "avoiding the appearance of all evil". So - I can see both points. You're right - drinking isn't wrong - and drinking can be perfectly fine in a celebration - or in other places for that matter - in moderation. I see nothing wrong with that. Is it a change...and a rather foreign concept to me? Absolutely.

[Akathist]

I think it's just a mindset that is hard to overcome, as someone coming from a conservative evangelical protestant background - coming into a Orthodox Church. Do I believe drinking is a sin? No. Am I used to people drinking in church? Definitely not. In the evangelical churches - if they are to the point that they don't think it's a sin - they at least don't do that in church because they see it as "avoiding the appearance of all evil". So - I can see both points. You're right - drinking isn't wrong - and drinking can be perfectly fine in a celebration - or in other places for that matter - in moderation. I see nothing wrong with that. Is it a change...and a rather foreign concept to me? Absolutely.

It took a bit for me to get used to it too.

The first time I took my friend who used to be Lutheran and is now wiccan (ugh) to visit my parish was one of the times when we had wine in the coffee hour. (It must have been a minor feast as this is not a common weekly thing for us.) I know she likes wine so I offered to get her a glass.

Her words were: "Any church that serves wine for coffee hour is a church I might join."

Who knows, maybe she will someday.

[NyssaTheHobbit]

Forgive me for yet another thread... a lot on my mind lately. OK, so... I know this cradle Orthodox. They have been to TAW before and says that converts vs. cradles are like night and day. A Russian Orthodox is much different from an American convert, for example. And not in a particularly good way (they thought otherwise :P).

This may... I dunno, touch on a few toes. Forgive me. But my friend said that TAW was largely fundamentalists who disliked everything Western. As opposed to, say, a Russian cradle, who was more open to Western teachings and nowhere near as fundamentalist. My friend also said that cradles party hard... like, big time hard, on major holidays such as Easter or Christmas. Lots of sausage and lots of alcohol. As in, to the point of being drunk big time.

I'm kind of worried, now. :help:

Hmmm....I haven't seen this hard partying so far. I've been through both Christmas and Easter, and the biggest partying I saw were people eating good food and drinking a cup or two of wine. These are nearly all cradles.

I have to wonder if part of it is jurisdiction? I've heard some of the churches are more strict, such as Armenian. I'm in the Greek Orthodox Church; rather than telling me that everyone else does it "wrong" and this is where I should be, my priest and others are telling me I need to go where I feel comfortable and spiritually edified, and that worship is not "wrong" if it's truly glorifying God. Not what I expected to hear, especially after finding something different on the OCA website and in other places. Of course, one older convert seems to have more of a mindset like mine, that Orthodoxy is the best way to go and we should get the word out. (Of course, our church is a third elderly and rather small, so we need to get the word out, anyway.)