Baptism Before Communion

[nowsthetime]

I was just wondering what is the opinion of people who are saved and serve God and clearly have a relationship with God but not yet baptized. In my case, I just came from a denomination where baptism was not something really that important, and I am currently in the process of getting an official baptism set up... but my chaplain suggested it'd be a good idea not to take communion until baptism (and I have been taking it previously as well as with other churches).

To my understanding, the Bible has no precondition for baptism to take communion, while it does mention other preconditions for the Lord's supper. I simply believe its possible to have a good firm relationship with God without having baptism, but I think baptism is necessary because God asks us to be baptized... We should do it out of obedience (not talking of Lutheran doctrine here, just straight scripture).

I guess my view is a bit more methodist... I was just wondering what other's thoughts were. I am not sure how I feel about that... Its not a super big deal, I don't suppose, but its frustrating because Holy Communion is such a spiritual act, and its something I feel I...well, I dont want to say need, but I do want to say need at the same time. I definitely don't feel I've taken communion when I shouldn't have... But I am interested in others response.

[TCat]

I don't know if it's ok for me to post here as I attend an LC-MS but I can say that my pastor has said that people who are not baptised are welcome to take communion in our church.
My co-worker recently joined my church and has not been baptised yet and was abstaining from communion at her mothers suggestion. Our pastor told her that she was welcome to join in as long as she understood and agreed with the communion confession which we read before partaking.
Maybe it is up to the individual serving communion but then that gets into a whole other bunch of issues.
Baptism is important as is communion but I don't know that they must be done in any order.

TCat

[Renatus]

... (and I have been taking it previously as well as with other churches) ...
That's already Lutheran Dogma. "Sola Scriptura", the Bible is the only base of faith and theological questions for us. ;)

But back to topic.
In my own experience I cannot really say if it is necessary to be baptized before taking the communion. I have been baptized as a baby and my first communion I took in the age of 14, so I haven't ever had that problem. I think the bible don't answer this question clearly, but we have to look who is allowed to take the communion. In the bible Jesus says to his follower to do the communion, for this reason I think only someone, who has accepted Jesus is allowed to take the communion. The others could also take them, but it would be useless for them, because they don't know what a communion means.
In my opinion the baptism is not the important act to accept Jesus, it is the spiritual reborn, which Jesus explained in John 3, 1-21. In that point of view the baptism only is the completation of this act.
But another more important point is that you have to know, what you are doing by taking the communion. In the age of 14 I was more or less an unbeliever. I believed in god, but I hadn't accepted Jesus. As I get my first communion I really don't know what it is good for or what it did represent. It didn't harm me I think, however somebody has to know what a communion does mean to satisfy it.
So I think that is the important thing, to know what you are doing by taking a communion.

[RegularGuy]

The ELCA's position is that "Communion is the birthright of the baptized." So, it is preferable that Baptism precede Communion.

Baptism is the Sacrament by which we are incorporated into the family of God. Communion is the family meal.

If I'm not mistaken, it is also the general practice of the United Methodist Church to Baptize first, then Commune.

[Willy]

It has been the tradition of the church that baptism does indeed precede communion. Baptism is the entrance rite into the church. Communion is the meal of the family. Having said that, though, these days I think this is a tough issue. We have quite a few folks who were not baptized as infants or as an adult. They experience in communion the welcome of God that causes them to want to be baptized. While I continue to say "all those who are baptized are welcome", I in no way would withhold communion from those unbaptized people who come to the table of Jesus.

[nowsthetime]

thanks for all your responses. i truly appreciate it. I'm learning a lot.

one of the things i get confused with is why the thought of "Sola Scriptura" and then the denomination taking an official stance that is not either plainly said in the Bible, and in my opinion is not even discreetly in the Bible. There are preconditions given like you must be in the right place with the Lord and stuff like that.. (I can't find the verse right off..maybe Corinthians something.. i dont remember).

Maybe i just missed something.

Thanks again for the responses. I'm still pretty young and learning!

[Renatus]

one of the things i get confused with is why the thought of "Sola Scriptura" and then the denomination taking an official stance that is not either plainly said in the Bible, and in my opinion is not even discreetly in the Bible. There are preconditions given like you must be in the right place with the Lord and stuff like that.. (I can't find the verse right off..maybe Corinthians something.. i dont remember).
That's all a thing of interpretation.
How Willy says
It has been the tradition of the church that baptism does indeed precede communion. Baptism is the entrance rite into the church. Communion is the meal of the family. ...
Jesus told that family, in the Bible his followers, to do the communion. Baptism is a step to enter this family, how Willy writes.

[nowsthetime]

thanks for the response. its a bit more understandable now.

like, i still think the church is just adding in more laws that the Bible implies in the instance. the Bible doesn't use the analogy that communion is the meal of the family OR baptism is the entrance rite into the church (i very well CAN be mistaken, please correct me if so). I realize baptism is something commanded by the Lord (which is a reason considering which I want to get baptized), but I don't think it's an absolute necessity for salvation (example, the good thief on the cross with Jesus). If I wasn't baptized, I think it would be an act of obedience. Concerning the good thief thing, maybe God is merciful in those situations because of the circumstances... I have no idea. But I'm starting to veer off on a tangent.

I just believe you can be apart of "the family" without baptism, and I'm 100% positive that you can live in a relationship with the Lord without baptism... It'd just be disobeying the Lord in not getting baptized... But it's not like that's never happened before. Due to circumstances of ignorance, it seems as if one could not be baptized but yet partake in the other commandment of the Lord (the Holy Communion).

But thanks for the responses. I now better understand and respect the view of the church, but just disagree with it. :)

[Renatus]

like, i still think the church is just adding in more laws that the Bible implies in the instance.
I think you have to differ between the churches itselves. Some denominations add something, some have a tradition or another base of their believe besides the bible. You even see, if a group only uses the bible, they would come to different opinions, because of their own interpretation.

The Baptism itself is not added by any church or denomination, it's ordered by Jesus himself in Matthew 28, 19. If it is not important, Jesus had not ordered it. The importance of baptism you can see in the fact, that Jesus also had been baptized in order to recieve the holy spirit (Mt 3, 13 - 17; Mk 1, 9-11; etc).

That's my opinion to this topic, maybe I will decide to be baptized again, because of my spiritual reborn, but that I don't know at the moment.

[nowsthetime]

I think you have to differ between the churches itselves. Some denominations add something, some have a tradition or another base of their believe besides the bible. You even see, if a group only uses the bible, they would come to different opinions, because of their own interpretation.

The Baptism itself is not added by any church or denomination, it's ordered by Jesus himself in Matthew 28, 19. If it is not important, Jesus had not ordered it. The importance of baptism you can see in the fact, that Jesus also had been baptized in order to recieve the holy spirit (Mt 3, 13 - 17; Mk 1, 9-11; etc).

That's my opinion to this topic, maybe I will decide to be baptized again, because of my spiritual reborn, but that I don't know at the moment.
oh absolutely. i understand that baptism is not an added law, i was speaking of baptism as a prereq for communing solely. both baptism and communing are a sort of commandment from the Lord.... but as far as baptism before communing, I just have yet to find it.. and my reasoning to think that its not a prereq will just echo what i said in my previous post.

as far as getting baptized again... i'll pray for you concerning that situation :)

[Renatus]

oh absolutely. i understand that baptism is not an added law, i was speaking of baptism as a prereq for communing solely. both baptism and communing are a sort of commandment from the Lord.... but as far as baptism before communing, I just have yet to find it.. and my reasoning to think that its not a prereq will just echo what i said in my previous post.
Oh ok, then I misunderstand you in that concern.
I think you will find your way.
In the end it only is a little issue as measured by the real important thing, which Jesus preached.

as far as getting baptized again... i'll pray for you concerning that situation :)
Thank you for that. :thumbsup:

[BigNorsk]

The ISB (http://www.studylight.org/enc/isb/view.cgi?number=T1147)E has a pretty good article on baptism. Giving an explanation that is fairly complete, though I think it doesn't go into the baptism unto Moses, where the whole nation of Israel, including infants carried in the arms of others, were baptised. It's a very interesting baptism because we get to follow everyone who participated in it. And we find that the adults did not persist but turned from God and so they perished in the wilderness having been erased from God's book, while the infants and other young people received the promised land through their faith.

And I would mention you used the word absolutely concerning the Lutheran position on baptism. While Lutherans would say baptism is necessary for salvation, it has never been the position that it is absolutely necessary. If it would have been the article on justification would have been grace alone on the merits of Christ alone through faith and baptism.

Marv

[nowsthetime]

The ISB (http://www.studylight.org/enc/isb/view.cgi?number=T1147)E has a pretty good article on baptism. Giving an explanation that is fairly complete, though I think it doesn't go into the baptism unto Moses, where the whole nation of Israel, including infants carried in the arms of others, were baptised. It's a very interesting baptism because we get to follow everyone who participated in it. And we find that the adults did not persist but turned from God and so they perished in the wilderness having been erased from God's book, while the infants and other young people received the promised land through their faith.

And I would mention you used the word absolutely concerning the Lutheran position on baptism. While Lutherans would say baptism is necessary for salvation, it has never been the position that it is absolutely necessary. If it would have been the article on justification would have been grace alone on the merits of Christ alone through faith and baptism.

Marv
thanks for the link. im not really questioning the importance of baptism. like i said, im getting things set up for baptismit. the question i raised is if its necessary as a precondition for communing.

[KagomeShuko]

Right, generally baptism is first, but a person with faith is most likely not going to be denied a place at the Lord's table, especially since the Lord calls all the faithful and Luther even said it is enough to just believe yourself as baptized!

http://www.elca.org/questions/Results.asp?recid=54
http://www.elca.org/worship/worship/sacraments/umg.html#part_two