Tongues ???

[Sonfest Rocker]

ur views on speaking in tongues?

[brightmorningstar]

Mostly in private prayer and in worship.

[DeoJuvante]

Article 24 - 'It is a thing plainly repugnant to the Word of God, and the custom of the Primitive Church, to have publick Prayer in the Church, or to minister the Sacraments in a tongue not understanded of the people.'

That saith, many of (such as my church) often use Latin and Ancient Greek (and occasionally even other languages) in the liturgy. I guess it could be argued that we all know what 'kyrie eleison' means.

[Aymn27]

ur views on speaking in tongues?





It is Scriptural and "available" for Christians today....It is not something that should be paraded about but something that should be used in private devotions...or if in a public worship setting there should be an interpreter present. In my Vineyard church, we believe, practice and many have the gift (which is the least of the gifts) - but only once in the last year or so that I've been going has anyone "spoke in tongues" where the entire congregation could hear and it was immediately interpreted by another....

Prophecy is a much greater gift - it builds up the church - it is the gift I've been seeking from the Lord.

[brightmorningstar]

Yes Aymn27. I fully agree.

[longhair75]

I have been to Pentecostal services where various members of the congregation would spontaneously be overtaken by the Holy Spirit and begin to speak in an unknown tongue.

In context, I admit that my scepticism would not allow me to be persuaded that these were actual Visitations by the Holy Spirit.

[DeoJuvante]

I suspect that most Anglicans would be quite sceptical of glossolalia. It is certainly not something that I would expect to see in an Anglican church.

[Aymn27]

I suspect that most Anglicans would be quite sceptical of glossolalia. It is certainly not something that I would expect to see in an Anglican church.
There are numerous Anglican churches that allow for such in their services....in the US (and I believe in the UK as well) these, along with evangelical Anglican congregations, have seen the greatest amount of growth. The weekend retreat for ALPHA gives a teaching on the gifts of the Spirit....

While I consider myself a "charismatic" - I would emphasize that these manifestations of the gifts (ie tongues) are not a "necessary" sign of a true believer (as opposed to what many pentecostal groups teach)..

On a personal note, when I was "baptized" in the Spirit - I was already a Christian, but my experience gave me an added dimension to my faith walk. I believe that most who experience this would agree. I think the danger is in becoming prideful and believing that those who do not operate out of the same spirituality are "not as good" Christians as those who do...

[Adammi]

Mostly in private prayer and in worship.
This would describe my use of this gift also.

[DeoJuvante]

There are numerous Anglican churches that allow for such in their services....in the US (and I believe in the UK as well) these, along with evangelical Anglican congregations, have seen the greatest amount of growth. The weekend retreat for ALPHA gives a teaching on the gifts of the Spirit....

While I consider myself a "charismatic" - I would emphasize that these manifestations of the gifts (ie tongues) are not a "necessary" sign of a true believer (as opposed to what many pentecostal groups teach)..

On a personal note, when I was "baptized" in the Spirit - I was already a Christian, but my experience gave me an added dimension to my faith walk. I believe that most who experience this would agree. I think the danger is in becoming prideful and believing that those who do not operate out of the same spirituality are "not as good" Christians as those who do...

:eek: I would be seriously disturbed if I saw this sort of thing in an Anglican church. My diocese tends towards to the catholic end of the spectrum though, so I'm not likely to. If someone is speaking a bona fide foreign language that's one thing, but if its gibberish (and, yes, it often is and, yes, it is possible to tell the difference between gibberish and an actual language), how can that possibly be justified?

[brightmorningstar]

The first time I saw this I was disturbed. But this does happen a little in my Anglican church which is about as diverse as you can get in terms of age, nationality, race and social status. I think you will find tongues common enough in churches that are growing in the UK and impacting society.... but I wouldnt expect it by deafult in any Anglican church.

[Colabomb]

It is clear that God has moved upon men in the past to speak languages not understood by the speaker. And I do believe the gift is alive today.

I don't believe that everyone who claims to have the gift of tounges does, nor do I think that the gift of toungues is what many say it is.

But I do believe it exists, and I have no reason to doubt someone who claims to have that gift.

[RadixLecti]

It is clear that God has moved upon men in the past to speak languages not understood by the speaker. And I do believe the gift is alive today.

I don't believe that everyone who claims to have the gift of tounges does, nor do I think that the gift of toungues is what many say it is.

But I do believe it exists, and I have no reason to doubt someone who claims to have that gift.
My view exactly.

[Tomoz]

:eek: I would be seriously disturbed if I saw this sort of thing in an Anglican church. My diocese tends towards to the catholic end of the spectrum though, so I'm not likely to. If someone is speaking a bona fide foreign language that's one thing, but if its gibberish (and, yes, it often is and, yes, it is possible to tell the difference between gibberish and an actual language), how can that possibly be justified?

With regards to the 'gibberish', Paul does speak in 1Cor 13 about speaking not only in the 'tongues of men', but also of angels. I think the gift of tongues can be either, and it is the 'tongues of angels' that he refers to as needing interpretation rather than translation - that is the tongue that would sound like gibberish to us. It is justified if someone can interpret.

I personally think it is a real gift available today, but that it isn't meant for everyone. And its place is for private use in prayer and personal edification unless someone can interpret and the whole church will be edified.

[Naomi4Christ]

:eek: I would be seriously disturbed if I saw this sort of thing in an Anglican church. My diocese tends towards to the catholic end of the spectrum though, so I'm not likely to. If someone is speaking a bona fide foreign language that's one thing, but if its gibberish (and, yes, it often is and, yes, it is possible to tell the difference between gibberish and an actual language), how can that possibly be justified?
I would be disturbed to come across it in an actual service because that is not what we are meant to do with that gift.

It is for private prayer, when our own language is not good enough to express our prayers. When others are within listening range, there should be an interpreter on hand.

When I have seen tongues used in a more public setting is during times of getting really deep with God - so perhaps in a homegroup or church houseparty. Even then, everyone is praying alone, and some praying in tongues and displaying other manifestations of the spirit.

A corporate example of tongues is singing in tongues, and this is a very beautiful thing.

[Sonfest Rocker]

homegroup was the first place i had ever seen ppl speaking in tongues
and tuesday night i experienced tongues for the first time it was amazing

[DeoJuvante]

It sounds undignified.

[Sonfest Rocker]

It sounds undignified.
huh?

[brightmorningstar]

Well tongues, as in from the Spirit, may sound undignified to some and dignified to others but that isnt the point of it, it is spoken to God. 1 Cor 14. It has also been ponted out/taught to me that I should attempt to interpret what I speak in tongues. Any corporate wroship in tongues should also be ordered, the Holy Spirit is order not confusion.

[Sonfest Rocker]

im still confused
maybe i shouldnt have asked

[norbie]

For me, speaking in Tounges comes in on Pentecost when the Apostel spoke and every Person from different Countries could understand in their Language.
But I had a very bad Experiance in a Uniting Church, there was a man standing beside me and 'spoke in tounges' it was shocking and horrible for me, like a mental disturbed lalled something.
As Paul said if you haven't got an interpreter - I will stay away from it.
Norbie:scratch:

[Colabomb]

im still confused
maybe i shouldnt have asked

No Haley, you should have asked. I'm sorry if you feel put off by some posts, but I'm glad to see you taking a larger part on the board. Please feel free and welcome to bring things like this up on the board. Its great to see you participating :)

[SirTimothy]

Tongues is one of those topics that I'm fairly well read up on. I believe that there are two seperate gifts which are commonly described as 'tongues'. Firstly there is what occured on Pentecost, which is where you are speaking the gospel in a language unknown to you. I know of cases where this has happened today. Sometimes it'll happen for a church and there will ALWAYS be an interpretation if it is intended to be spoken out to the congregation.
And secondly there is the oft-scoffed at 'nonsense' which in fact the Apostle Paul rates quite highly, calling it 'Speaking in a tongue'. He says that you are not 'speaking to man, but to God'... (I forget the references.) What this gift is about is speaking and releasing to God all the things that we cannot speak or say. There have been several cases in churches I've ben involved in where it has caused healing from depression, from anger, from stomach ulcers, etc. It is a lesser gift than prophecy, yes, but it is nonetheless a huge thing, and I am so glad the Holy Spirit has chosen to bestow this gift on you, Haylea. It's incredible when it happens, true communication between us and God. What more could you ask for? :)

[brightmorningstar]

Dear SirTimothy,
Can I thank you for that explanation which I think is one of the best I have heard. :thumbsup: :) ... I fully agree

[Aymn27]

Tongues is one of those topics that I'm fairly well read up on. I believe that there are two seperate gifts which are commonly described as 'tongues'. Firstly there is what occured on Pentecost, which is where you are speaking the gospel in a language unknown to you. I know of cases where this has happened today. Sometimes it'll happen for a church and there will ALWAYS be an interpretation if it is intended to be spoken out to the congregation.
And secondly there is the oft-scoffed at 'nonsense' which in fact the Apostle Paul rates quite highly, calling it 'Speaking in a tongue'. He says that you are not 'speaking to man, but to God'... (I forget the references.) What this gift is about is speaking and releasing to God all the things that we cannot speak or say. There have been several cases in churches I've ben involved in where it has caused healing from depression, from anger, from stomach ulcers, etc. It is a lesser gift than prophecy, yes, but it is nonetheless a huge thing, and I am so glad the Holy Spirit has chosen to bestow this gift on you, Haylea. It's incredible when it happens, true communication between us and God. What more could you ask for? :)
Yes, great post...the only thing that I would point out is that even at Pentecost the people thought the apostles were "drunk" early in the morning...so I think by inference we can conclude that their speech was "gibberish"...to some. Perhaps those present could understand one apostle but the others sounded like drunk men....

And tongues is truly a great gift....it is an amazing blessing and brings a tremendous amount of peace to the pray-er....

[Simon_Templar]

Its interesting that at pentecost there were people present from something like 14 or more different geographical reagions, and each one of them heard the apostles speaking in their own local dialect.

Now, it could be understood that each of the apostles were speaking a different language... or it could be that they were simply speaking a miraculous heavenly language which each person heard as their own language.

It is also interesting that many people present did hear only gibberish. One would think that if they were in fact speaking different dialects of greek, hebrew, aramaic, arabic etc, many of those would be recognized, even if they were not understood.

I realize its just my opinion, but I think the apostles we not miraculously speaking human languages they did not know. I think that the people who were meant to hear, miraculously heard their own language.


As for the speaking of tongues as gibberish. Its tempting to think that something which sounds like gibberish can't really be language. There are, however, some human languages which are truly bizzare to hear. The one that comes immediately to mind is that of the african aboriginal bush tribes. Some of their languages literally consist mostly of clicking and whistling. It sounds more like bird calls than actual language.

Paul also makes it clear in 1st corinthians that often times tongues is not a language known to anyone present. However in such circumstances it should be reserved as a personal devotion and a personal discipline to edify your spirit.

Tongues is something which is abused alot within charismatic circles because it is visible, and it is high profile, and it becomes a way of showing off your spirituality etc.

It is, however, still a gift/manifestation of the Spirit which was given for our benefit and the benefit of the church.

[higgs2]

I'm quite skeptical, and I also feel uncomfortable with the entire concept. So I pretty much ignore it completely, since it never happens to my knowledge in my presence. I love and respect many people who seem to have this as an important part of their spiritual life, so by not addressing it I don't dis them and don't have to be uncomfortable either.

:D Avoidance is not a technique I normally use in my life, but it seems to work really well for me regarding this issue :)

[pmcleanj]

While not in any way denying God's ability to produce any miracle that God chooses, I conclude from my own experience that the primary way in which God works in the world, is through natural manifestations of scientific laws, which God sanctifies by God's supernatural grace.
Humans have a "speech reflex" -- a hard-wired nervous-system response to complete movements of the muscles of the tongue, larynx and ombrasure, once started, in such a way that they create phonemes. These reflexes are reinforced through practice (many hours a day over thousands of days) to strengthen the reflex that produces the phonemes used in your own language. If you relax conscious control of your tongue, and let your voice muscles "go", you will reflexively begin making speech-like sounds. This technique is taught in theatre school and used by "extras" routinely, when they need to produce realistic "background hub-bub" and have run out of things to talk about.

When emotionally overwhelmed, or when made inarticulate by awareness of God's greatness or of his own inadequacy, a Christian can use this phenomenon to pray when no words can express the content of his prayer. Because God hears the intended prayer, we are nonetheless communing with God. And because the Spirit gives us the words, we are not limiting our prayer with our own inadequate powers of speech.

Anglicans like me, who have spent decades immersed in the glorious language of Thomas Cranmer's incomparable prayer=book prose, rarely resort to glossalalia. Our speech reflex automatically guides our vocal structures to produce phonemes that sound like "Almighty and everlasting God, who of thy great love to mankind hast promised use remission of all our sins through the inestimable saving grace of thy Son Jesus Christ great oblation, receive we humbly beseech the the prayers and petitions of us thy humble servants...." and so on.

From a good modern evangelical perspective, ;) it's still gibberish. But God understands it, too, and it's really good gibberish.

[DeoJuvante]

Linguists have analysed the type of glossolalia that does not form a recognisable language. What they have found is that it almost always consists of an evenly distributed set of phonemes from the speaker's native language. In my eyes, at least, this is not a heavenly language, it is gibberish.

[Tomoz]

Linguists have analysed the type of glossolalia that does not form a recognisable language. What they have found is that it almost always consists of an evenly distributed set of phonemes from the speaker's native language. In my eyes, at least, this is not a heavenly language, it is gibberish.

I personally don't really think that means much - there aren't that many language-specific phonemes, compared to the number that are common to several languages. So it isn't as though tongues spoken by a french speaker sounds totally different to tongues spoken by a german speaker, by an english speaker, by a japanese speaker etc.

I don't personally speak in tongues, but I have no reason to doubt it's authenticity as it is biblical and I have charismatic friends who are completely down-to-earth, devout, 'normal' human beings. In fact, the question of the existence or non-existence of tongues doesn't seem to be an issue in the NT, just the correct use of the gift. But I can understand that it may seem strange to anyone who hasn't encountered it in any form, directly or indirectly - just, as Pamela said, formal liturgy could knock someone for six.

[DeoJuvante]

I personally don't really think that means much - there aren't that many language-specific phonemes, compared to the number that are common to several languages. So it isn't as though tongues spoken by a french speaker sounds totally different to tongues spoken by a german speaker, by an english speaker, by a japanese speaker etc.

I don't personally speak in tongues, but I have no reason to doubt it's authenticity as it is biblical and I have charismatic friends who are completely down-to-earth, devout, 'normal' human beings. In fact, the question of the existence or non-existence of tongues doesn't seem to be an issue in the NT, just the correct use of the gift. But I can understand that it may seem strange to anyone who hasn't encountered it in any form, directly or indirectly - just, as Pamela said, formal liturgy could knock someone for six.
So what? While a particular phoneme may be common to many different languages, the set of phonemes used by a language is generally quite distinctive. And I'm not arguing that those who perform glossolalia are not genuine, I just don't believe that it's an act of the Spirit (because the evidence points in a different direction). I'm actually rather scandalised to find that so many Anglicans do. I thought we were more grounded than that.

[Naomi4Christ]

So what? While a particular phoneme may be common to many different languages, the set of phonemes used by a language is generally quite distinctive. And I'm not arguing that those who perform glossolalia are not genuine, I just don't believe that it's an act of the Spirit (because the evidence points in a different direction). I'm actually rather scandalised to find that so many Anglicans do. I thought we were more grounded than that.
We are, hopefully, grounded in Scripture.

[Sonfest Rocker]

i really feel as tho i shouldnt bring any more of my questions here
im sorry i asked to start off with
ok
Im sorry

[DeoJuvante]

i really feel as tho i shouldnt bring any more of my questions here
im sorry i asked to start off with
ok
Im sorry
There's no need to be sorry :)

Our debates get a little spirited sometimes but that doesn't mean that we're angry or anything. It's just that Anglicanism is quite varied and sometimes (OK, often) our ways of doing things can be quite different. But please don't be scared off by it.

[brightmorningstar]

I think the danger is that is people get the impression or worse still give the impression, that because tongues are associated with being born of the Spirit,one has to speak in tongues to be a true believer. Of course the sign of the Holy Spirit is that one believes the scriptures, Jesus says the Holy Spirit will remind us of all He said. Its easier to test the Spirit with the word than tongues without interpretation.
People can feel very left out in company of people praying or worshipping in tongues

[higgs2]

i really feel as tho i shouldnt bring any more of my questions here
im sorry i asked to start off with
ok
Im sorry

please don't apologize. Nothing bad has happened. People are discussing this and that is great. We don't all have to agree on everything :)

[Sonfest Rocker]

please don't apologize. Nothing bad has happened. People are discussing this and that is great. We don't all have to agree on everything :)
well im outta here
i didnt want an arguement
ok
so
bye

[Iosias]

ur views on speaking in tongues?






Ceased during apostolic times

[Colabomb]

So what? While a particular phoneme may be common to many different languages, the set of phonemes used by a language is generally quite distinctive. And I'm not arguing that those who perform glossolalia are not genuine, I just don't believe that it's an act of the Spirit (because the evidence points in a different direction). I'm actually rather scandalised to find that so many Anglicans do. I thought we were more grounded than that.

What do you mean by "grounded"?

[Aymn27]

Ceased during apostolic times
can you prove that?

[apsalmistspraise]

my thoughts are: why would God use the Pentecost way just once if it worked and then tell ppl to stop. It says in the Bible that when the Perfect shall come and I'm sorry but the perfect COULD NOT BE THE BIBLE as the Bible in John 1 says in the beginning was the WORD and the Word was God and the word was with God the same was in the beginning with God. then not even 6 verses later it refers to the Word being the one that John the Baptist would shed light on which was Jesus. So Jesus IS THE PERFECT. so until the second coming there will be tongues... My view.

[higgs2]

well im outta here
i didnt want an arguement
ok
so
bye

:) You wanted people's views on this topic, which you got. Now people are discussing those views. Good thread, good for you for starting it! And it's just fine to decide not to participate too.

Take care. :)

[higgs2]

can you prove that?

LOL! It seems to me that proof is difficult from all directions in reference to this topic :D I don't think anyone can "prove" much of anything.

[pmcleanj]

... there aren't that many language-specific phonemes, compared to the number that are common to several languages. So it isn't as though tongues spoken by a french speaker sounds totally different to tongues spoken by a german speaker, by an english speaker, by a japanese speaker etc.

...it may seem strange to anyone who hasn't encountered it in any form, directly or indirectly - just, as Pamela said, formal liturgy could knock someone for six.

... And I'm not arguing that those who perform glossolalia are not genuine, I just don't believe that it's an act of the Spirit (because the evidence points in a different direction)...
I have read the same studies that show that, while not apparent to an untrained ear, under linguistic analysis tongues spoken by a german speaker are totally different from tongues spoken by a japanese speaker.

But it is quite possible that the natural speech reflex, while operating entirely within the natural range of learned phonemes that characterize a particular language, are *still* a manifestation of the Holy Spirit.

When a person is inspired by the Holy Spirit to prophecy, even in his own native tongue, that is still an inspired utterance. When a person is inspired to pray, following the guidance of the Holy Spirit but using prayer vocabulary informed by an intimate and prolonged study of Cranmer's sacred prose, that too may be an inspired utterance. So why not acknowledge the Holy Spirit when a person uses the phonemes of his native tongue to express prayer that goes beyond words -- especially in private worship that is not intended for intellectual edification but only for expressing that relationship with God that goes beyond words.

It doesn't have to be supernatural to be of the Holy Spirit. Quite the opposite. And for Anglicans, formal liturgy meets our need for a means of expressing prayer beyond words, in a more historically Anglican way than does glossalalia.

[ContraMundum]

I've never heard anyone speak with the Biblical gift of languages. To my understanding, the word "glossa" in the Greek refers to languages, that is, speech with words, grammar, syntax and meaning. It's the opposite of "gibberish", which is unintelligible words. I believe I've heard the latter and not the former.

Now, as far as I know, Paul says it is better to pray in such a way that both the mind and spirit benefit, as well as others around you. In the context of liturgy, what passes as tongue speaking these days is completely useless and in fact unscriptural. (see 1 Cor 14: 10-19). What people do in their own time is of no consequence to the congregation in public worship, however, and lots of people seek to pray in unknown languages. It's their business, I stay out of it.

[ContraMundum]

I think the danger is that is people get the impression or worse still give the impression, that because tongues are associated with being born of the Spirit,one has to speak in tongues to be a true believer. Of course the sign of the Holy Spirit is that one believes the scriptures, Jesus says the Holy Spirit will remind us of all He said. Its easier to test the Spirit with the word than tongues without interpretation.
People can feel very left out in company of people praying or worshipping in tongues
A cult started in Australia with just those beliefs. They believe that to be saved one must have the Holy Spirit, and the only evidence of that is "tongue speaking". So, they get the Giver mixed up with the gift and restrict Him to evidences He is not contained to.

[apsalmistspraise]

Contra...u say It's the opposite of "gibberish", which is unintelligible words. I believe I've heard the latter and not the former.

Now, as far as I know, Paul says it is better to pray in such a way that both the mind and spirit benefit, as well as others around you. In the context of liturgy, what passes as tongue speaking these days is completely useless and in fact unscriptural. (see 1 Cor 14: 10-19). What people do in their own time is of no consequence to the congregation in public worship, however, and lots of people seek to pray in unknown languages. It's their business, I stay out of it.


And it is good that you would stay out of someone's personal prayer time and worship BUT at the same time I need to say that I for one ALSO thought that it was gibberish and asked God to impart through his Holy Spirit some for m of proof to me as to the fact that tongues would benefit me and that it wasnt just gibberish. within the same day God gave me 3 sylables put togehter that I had no clue on. I questioned it rightly to God because of Baptist faith, i truly didnt believe in tongues being used today. I thought they were fake as well or at least people were being creative. lol well Ah-Dah-Lay means "come on" and I have never had spanish or any other language lesson other than learning English from birth and I was singing Ah-Dah-Lay Ah-dah-Lay Ah-day Lay , most Holy one. Draw near and let me see the beauty of your Ways, the Glory of your desire. The affect of your heart that you have for me.... I WAS SINGING FOR HIM TO COME NEAR to me in another language. and at first I thought it gibberish even though I felt that it meant something and that is why i looked up sylables put together and it came up as spanish. soooooooooooooooooooo yes I believe based on experience.

[apsalmistspraise]

Contr- A cult started in Australia with just those beliefs. They believe that to be saved one must have the Holy Spirit, and the only evidence of that is "tongue speaking". So, they get the Giver mixed up with the gift and restrict Him to evidences He is not contained to.

NOT EVERY christian that shows manifested gifts of the spirit believes this. In fact I believe along with many others that I know personally that once you accept Christ as your only home for heaven and believe in what HE did on calvary then one is SAVED. AND we also believe that once that happens the holy spirit enters in. Whether one shows manifestations of the gift of the spirit is of one free will to exercize it by ASKING of God to impart His gifts to them. which is what i did and what has happened? I have grown more towards God not away. My bible studies have returned more learned on and understood from understanding that passes my own and I have KNOWN when the Holy spirit wanted me to impart an encouraging word on another.

[ContraMundum]

Contra...u say It's the opposite of "gibberish", which is unintelligible words. I believe I've heard the latter and not the former.

Now, as far as I know, Paul says it is better to pray in such a way that both the mind and spirit benefit, as well as others around you. In the context of liturgy, what passes as tongue speaking these days is completely useless and in fact unscriptural. (see 1 Cor 14: 10-19). What people do in their own time is of no consequence to the congregation in public worship, however, and lots of people seek to pray in unknown languages. It's their business, I stay out of it.


And it is good that you would stay out of someone's personal prayer time and worship BUT at the same time I need to say that I for one ALSO thought that it was gibberish and asked God to impart through his Holy Spirit some for m of proof to me as to the fact that tongues would benefit me and that it wasnt just gibberish. within the same day God gave me 3 sylables put togehter that I had no clue on. I questioned it rightly to God because of Baptist faith, i truly didnt believe in tongues being used today. I thought they were fake as well or at least people were being creative. lol well Ah-Dah-Lay means "come on" and I have never had spanish or any other language lesson other than learning English from birth and I was singing Ah-Dah-Lay Ah-dah-Lay Ah-day Lay , most Holy one. Draw near and let me see the beauty of your Ways, the Glory of your desire. The affect of your heart that you have for me.... I WAS SINGING FOR HIM TO COME NEAR to me in another language. and at first I thought it gibberish even though I felt that it meant something and that is why i looked up sylables put together and it came up as spanish. soooooooooooooooooooo yes I believe based on experience.
Hi friend,

Well, that is your experience, and that's all well and good. I already speak several tongues- I've been an avid student of languages since my youth and knocked a couple over at university too. The difference between and those at Pentecost (and beyond, I would say) and people like myself is that the Holy Spirit didn't instantaneously impart full and complete ability to speak those languages in a miraculous intervention to me like He did to the Apostles. In fact, when I speak, say Danish, I have an accent that tells people I'm not a born and bred Danish speaker. It's imperfect and incomplete. Not so for the Apostles in the Book of Acts, as we read. They had such a powerful manifestation of the gift of languages that people marvelled at it and understood them clearly. No need of repetition for clarity because of a broken foreign accent.

Now, I know many people (since Kenneth Hagin first proposed this angle on tongues, if I'm not mistaken) believe God gives us a prayer language of our very own in the same way we would teach our own children to speak, so the gift of tongues is imperfect itself, I have to say I remain a little sceptical in the light of the scriptures. But still, I could be wrong.

[ContraMundum]

Contr- A cult started in Australia with just those beliefs. They believe that to be saved one must have the Holy Spirit, and the only evidence of that is "tongue speaking". So, they get the Giver mixed up with the gift and restrict Him to evidences He is not contained to.

NOT EVERY christian that shows manifested gifts of the spirit believes this. In fact I believe along with many others that I know personally that once you accept Christ as your only home for heaven and believe in what HE did on calvary then one is SAVED. AND we also believe that once that happens the holy spirit enters in. Whether one shows manifestations of the gift of the spirit is of one free will to exercize it by ASKING of God to impart His gifts to them. which is what i did and what has happened? I have grown more towards God not away. My bible studies have returned more learned on and understood from understanding that passes my own and I have KNOWN when the Holy spirit wanted me to impart an encouraging word on another.
I know not every person who speaks in tongues believes that- such a belief is particular to that cult I mentioned. Most charismatic Christians I know are basically sound in their soteriology.

[apsalmistspraise]

Now, I know many people (since Kenneth Hagin first proposed this angle on tongues, if I'm not mistaken) believe God gives us a prayer language of our very own in the same way we would teach our own children to speak, so the gift of tongues is imperfect itself, I have to say I remain a little sceptical in the light of the scriptures. But still, I could be wrong.
____________________________________________________

Kenneth may have told people about it at his church and I hate when people get the credit for something that is God appointed. It was God who gave the scriptures. God breathed through man writing them but they are the inspired words of God. And there would never had to have been a 1 and 2 Corinthians if there weren't going to be the use of tongues later on down the road. YES some do misuse it. that is why there is a guideline to follow in the bible. BUT it is not for me to judge whether ones heart and intent is in line with God's gift f manifestation. some do certain things in ignorance while others look for direction. for me, if I am doing it in accordance to scripture then I have no dealing with hypocrisies on my end. but I only speak for myself.

[apsalmistspraise]

such a belief is particular to that cult I mentioned.

Why do you call kenneth haggin's ministry a cult? There are many wonderful Christian teaching the word of God. I think God uses people in all denominations to reach the world for Christ and Kenneth's church is still going strong. And reaching many with the Love of Christ.

[ContraMundum]

No, no no. This has all gone pear shaped. Please read more carefully.

a) Kenneth Hagin did not start the cult I was referring to that is in Australia. I never said he did. I was saying that he started the doctrine that tongue speaking was imperfect and needed to be learned as a child learns to speak. He taught that God would give people utterances and that with practice they could learn to speak. He taught also that these were private prayer languages uniquely given to each individual.

b) The cult in Australia (Revival Centres, Inc.) states that no one is saved unless they speak in tongues (because this is the only evidence of having the Holy Spirit, they say). I do not think normal pentecostals or charismatics believe this. I never said they do.

c) Kenneth Hagin deserves the credit for inventing the doctrine, because as far as I can tell he is the first one to put this unusual teaching into writing. Thus, I don't think he is teaching anything remotely "God appointed" and can call it like I see it.

d) Let's read before we type, ok? :)

[apsalmistspraise]

No, I just misunderstood. please forgive me :) I still would rather not judge Kenneth's ministry as many have come to know Jesus as savior through his church.

[ContraMundum]

No, I just misunderstood. please forgive me :) I still would rather not judge Kenneth's ministry as many have come to know Jesus as savior through his church.
Cool. Kenneth Hagin deserves to be remembered as a man seeking after God in my opinion. He got things wrong, but we all do. He was a gracious and humble person by all accounts. I'm pretty sure we'll see him in Heaven if we can get that close to the throne,

[Aymn27]

Cool. Kenneth Hagin deserves to be remembered as a man seeking after God in my opinion. He got things wrong, but we all do. He was a gracious and humble person by all accounts. I'm pretty sure we'll see him in Heaven if we can get that close to the throne,
Too bad we will have no idea what he's saying:sigh: :cry: ^_^

[Simon_Templar]

No, no no. This has all gone pear shaped. Please read more carefully.

a) Kenneth Hagin did not start the cult I was referring to that is in Australia. I never said he did. I was saying that he started the doctrine that tongue speaking was imperfect and needed to be learned as a child learns to speak. He taught that God would give people utterances and that with practice they could learn to speak. He taught also that these were private prayer languages uniquely given to each individual.

b) The cult in Australia (Revival Centres, Inc.) states that no one is saved unless they speak in tongues (because this is the only evidence of having the Holy Spirit, they say). I do not think normal pentecostals or charismatics believe this. I never said they do.

c) Kenneth Hagin deserves the credit for inventing the doctrine, because as far as I can tell he is the first one to put this unusual teaching into writing. Thus, I don't think he is teaching anything remotely "God appointed" and can call it like I see it.

d) Let's read before we type, ok? :)
actually it is standard pentecostal doctrine that speaking in tongues is the required initial evidence of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. This is stated in their 'creeds'.

However, most pentecostals believe that being baptized in the Holy Spirit is different than merely having the Spirit active in your life. Thus most do not believe that speaking in tongues is necessary for salvation.

The Holy Spirit working in your life is necessary to salvation. Pentecostals and Charismatics usually believe that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is a seperate event which occurs after salvation and is specificly purposed to empower someone who is already a believer to do the work of the Kingdom. Pentecostals tend to believe that tongues are a necessary evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

[Father Rick]

Well..

I've tried to post in this thread for days now, and every time something has happened.

First, let me disclose upfront, for those who may not know, that I come from a strong Pentecostal/Charismatic background-- and yes, I do speak in tongues in private prayer. There have also been a few occasions when God has used me in the manifestation gift of tongues (with accompanying interpretation) as a means of delivering a prophetic message for a congregation.


I have noticed, that for many, the issue of tongues is one of the most controversial within church circles. Even within Charismatic circles, tongues seems to be the one manifestation that creates controversy.

Historically, we see the origination of this particular manifestation on the day of Pentecost. We see repeated episodes recording in scripture. We also have solid evidence from Church Tradition that such did not end with the apostolic era, but continued. In post-Biblical times St. Irenæus (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/08130b.htm) tells us that "many" of his contemporaries were heard "speaking through the Spirit in all kinds (pantodapais) of tongues" ("Contra haer.", V, vii; Eusebius, "Hist. eccl.", V, vii). St. Francis Xavier (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/06233b.htm) is said to have preached in tongues unknown to him and St. Vincent Ferrer while using his native tongue was understood in others. From this last phenomenon Biblical glossolaly differs in being what St. Gregory Nazianzen (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/07010b.htm) points out as a marvel of speaking and not of hearing. Exegetes (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/cathen/05692b.htm) observe too that it was never used for preaching, although Sts. Augustine and Thomas seem to have overlooked this detail.

taken from NewAdvent (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14776c.htm) There is other documentation throughout Church History of the preserverance of the charism of tongues. While I can't find the source right now, I know there is documentation of St. Francis of Assisi being observed "dancing in the fields, playing the violin and singing in a language that noone could understand-- although it sounded similar to Latin".

Many don't realize just how deeply the charism of tongues in engrained, even within liturgical tradition. For instance, the infamous "slap on the cheek" by the bishop at confirmation originates with the charism of tongues. The pattern from the early days of the church was that when the apostles/bishops laid their hands on a believer to receive the "gift of the Spirit" that the believer would "speak in tongues and prophesy". Therefore, the bishop would lay their hands on the confirmand, then gentle slap them on the cheek as a way of saying "now start speaking".

As to whether the languages spoken are true languages or merely "gibberish", there have been numerous studies done, with differing conclusions. Some studies have come back saying that these are simply inarticulate sounds... other say that they have the form of language, yet not of a known language. Scripture speaks of the Spirit praying through us with "groanings and moanings which cannot be uttered". Repeatedly the prophets state that, in the Messianic age (aka the Church age), people would praise God with "stuttering lips and a stammering tongue". Since there are such prophecies, even "gibberish" could fall into this classification.

There have also been studies done (anectdotal by nature) of cases where the language spoken was, indeed, a language unknown by the speaker, yet recognized by others present. Personally, I know of 2 instances where this occurred. In one case, it was a 10 year old boy from my church who began to speak fluent spanish while in prayer-- which was understood/interpreted by hispanics who were present. In the second case, it was a "tongues and interpretation" given in public worship. In this case, a friend of mine, Kennedy Mkutu, from Kenya recognized the language spoken as being the dialect of the people who lived directly south of him in Kenya-- and the interpretation into English as being the most accurate translation possible. These manifestations of this charism would be perfectly in keeping with both scritpural and historical evidences.

As to the acceptance of tongues within the contemporary church, some of you are already aware that the modern Charismatic movement was "birthed" with an Anglican priest praying the Liturgy of the Hours. This is detailed in his book, 9:00 in the Morning, by Dennis Bennett. The Charismatic movement is actually strongest in the catholic churches, with 190,000,000 RC's claiming to be Charismatic (more than all other Charismatic/Pentecostal groups put together)... not to mention within Anglican, Old Catholic, and like circles.

[Wigglesworth]

Pamela, your posts are quite impressive to this Pentecostal. I don't know what phonemes are, but I like your answers.

Tongues are good. I find myself spontaneously breaking out in prayer in tongues when I leave mass sometimes, or when I leave a meeting with someone that has turned out to be an obvious divine appointment. For me, it is sometimes a way of praise that is greater than my expression of thoughtful words.

I like Kenneth Hagin, too.

Peace be with you.

:crossrc:

[Paladin_Mark]

It is Scriptural and "available" for Christians today....It is not something that should be paraded about but something that should be used in private devotions...or if in a public worship setting there should be an interpreter present. In my Vineyard church, we believe, practice and many have the gift (which is the least of the gifts) - but only once in the last year or so that I've been going has anyone "spoke in tongues" where the entire congregation could hear and it was immediately interpreted by another....

Prophecy is a much greater gift - it builds up the church - it is the gift I've been seeking from the Lord.

I agree with Aymn27 :)

[Aymn27]

I agree with Aymn27 :)
well of course you do...you're a smart person, witty, good looking, and well-liked.....

birds of a feather flock together..no? :P