Sabbath Instituted in creation?, Written vs Reasoned

[Cribstyl]

Q1: If someone new to the bible would study Gen 2:1-3 in context, would they have reason to believe that Sabbath rest was given to Adam?

In Gen 2:2-3 Moses use 10 noun/pronouns to say that God alone "ceased" (rested) from creating all things.

Q1a: How can we add that man was given God's rest or even a sign of God rest at this timeframe?

The word "rested" implies that God was finished His work rather than being tired and needed a day to recover. What reenforces this understanding are the phrase in both verse this text " verse2 and 3"...from all His work.."


Gen 2:2 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Gen/Gen002.html#2) And on the seventh 07637 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?strongs=07637) day 03117 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?strongs=03117) God 0430 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?strongs=0430) ended 03615 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?strongs=03615) his work 04399 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?strongs=04399) which he had made 06213 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?strongs=06213) ; and he rested 07673 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?strongs=07673) on the seventh 07637 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?strongs=07637) day 03117 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?strongs=03117) from all his work 04399 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?strongs=04399) which he had made 06213 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?strongs=06213) .

Gen 2:3 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Gen/Gen002.html#3) And God 0430 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?strongs=0430) blessed 01288 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?strongs=01288) the seventh 07637 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?strongs=07637) day 03117 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?strongs=03117), and sanctified 06942 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?strongs=06942) it: because 03588 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?strongs=03588) that in it he had rested 07673 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?strongs=07673) from all his work 04399 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?strongs=04399) which God 0430 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?strongs=0430) created 01254 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?strongs=01254) and made 06213 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?strongs=06213) .

[Cribstyl]

Q1: If someone new to the bible would study Gen 2:1-3 in context, would they have reason to believe that Sabbath rest was given to Adam?

In Gen 2:2-3 Moses use 10 noun/pronouns to say that God alone "ceased" (rested) from creating all things.

Q1a: How can we add that man was given God's rest or even a sign of God rest at this timeframe?

The word "rested" implies that God was finished His work rather than being tired and needed a day to recover. What reenforces this understanding are the phrase in both verse this text " verse2 and 3"...from all His work.."


Gen 2:2 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Gen/Gen002.html#2) And on the seventh 07637 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?strongs=07637) day 03117 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?strongs=03117) God 0430 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?strongs=0430) ended 03615 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?strongs=03615) his work 04399 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?strongs=04399) which he had made 06213 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?strongs=06213) ; and he rested 07673 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?strongs=07673) on the seventh 07637 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?strongs=07637) day 03117 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?strongs=03117) from all his work 04399 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?strongs=04399) which he had made 06213 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?strongs=06213) .

Gen 2:3 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Gen/Gen002.html#3) And God 0430 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?strongs=0430) blessed 01288 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?strongs=01288) the seventh 07637 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?strongs=07637) day 03117 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?strongs=03117), and sanctified 06942 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?strongs=06942) it: because 03588 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?strongs=03588) that in it he had rested 07673 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?strongs=07673) from all his work 04399 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?strongs=04399) which God 0430 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?strongs=0430) created 01254 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?strongs=01254) and made 06213 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?strongs=06213) .

Some people believe that God kept a sabbath, rather than God "ceased". This is why God's rest is not a weekly day but rather the place of His throne outside of time.

Hebrew chapter 3 and 4 proves that No man entered God's rest until Christ was resurrected.

[Jimlarmore]

The Bible uses the word sanctified to discribe what God did for the Sabbath day. Sanctified is defined as set aside for holy use. Everything God did during the creation week was for man the crowning glory of His creation. We were created in the image of God and were made perfect. Jesus who is fully God told us why the Sabbath was made when He said the Sabbath was made for man not man for the Sabbath. So if we follow the words of Christ it is certain why the Sabbath was made, it was for man. BTW, there were no Jews around at creation only one man and one woman.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

[Cribstyl]

The Bible uses the word sanctified to discribe what God did for the Sabbath day. Sanctified is defined as set aside for holy use. Everything God did during the creation week was for man the crowning glory of His creation. We were created in the image of God and were made perfect. Jesus who is fully God told us why the Sabbath was made when He said the Sabbath was made for man not man for the Sabbath. So if we follow the words of Christ it is certain why the Sabbath was made, it was for man. BTW, there were no Jews around at creation only one man and one woman.

God Bless
Jim Larmore
Thanks Jim for keeping your reply to one point.

First, "Sabbath day" is not in dialog in the text, God's seventh day of creation is.
Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.



God's seventh day is figurative of when God ceased His six days of creation and entered His rest on the throne.
The place of God's rest is sanctified by God and can never be defiled by man.

Do men defile the sabbath? Yes all the time

The day of rest given to man as a Sabbath was not kept in the days that it was given.
The fact that sabbaths are periodically and are commanded to be kept, mean that men are to sanctify the sabbath given to them by God.

CRIB

[reddogs]

Q: If someone new to the bible would study Gen 2:1-3 in context, then read the rest of the Bible have reason to believe that Sabbath rest was given to Adam?

A: Yes, ITS CLEAR AS A BELL, as God repeats it many times in scripture and also defines it in the NT who it was made for at creation and Jesus kept the Sabbath.........

Deuteronomy 5:12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=5&chapter=5&verse=12&version=9&context=verse)
Keep the sabbath day to sanctify it, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee.
Deuteronomy 5:11-13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=5&chapter=5&verse=11&end_verse=13&version=9&context=context) (in Context) Deuteronomy 5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=5&chapter=5&version=9&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Deuteronomy 5:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=5&chapter=5&verse=14&version=9&context=verse)
But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou.
Deuteronomy 5:13-15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=5&chapter=5&verse=13&end_verse=15&version=9&context=context) (in Context) Deuteronomy 5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=5&chapter=5&version=9&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Deuteronomy 5:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=5&chapter=5&verse=15&version=9&context=verse)
And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.
Deuteronomy 5:14-16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=5&chapter=5&verse=14&end_verse=16&version=9&context=context) (in Context) Deuteronomy 5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=5&chapter=5&version=9&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Isaiah 58:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=29&chapter=58&verse=13&version=9&context=verse)
If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:
Jeremiah 17:24 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=30&chapter=17&verse=24&version=9&context=verse)
And it shall come to pass, if ye diligently hearken unto me, saith the LORD, to bring in no burden through the gates of this city on the sabbath day, but hallow the sabbath day, to do no work therein;
Matthew 12:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=12&verse=8&version=9&context=verse)
For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
Mark 2:27 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=2&verse=27&version=9&context=verse)
And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
Mark 2:26-28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=2&verse=26&end_verse=28&version=9&context=context) (in Context) Mark 2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=2&version=9&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Mark 2:28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=2&verse=28&version=9&context=verse)
Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.
Mark 6:2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=6&verse=2&version=9&context=verse)
And when the sabbath day was come, he began to teach in the synagogue: and many hearing him were astonished, saying, From whence hath this man these things? and what wisdom is this which is given unto him, that even such mighty works are wrought by his hands?It didnt say the Sabbath was made for the fish, or birds or animals, it said it was made for man (and Adam was the first man) and Jesus should know as He is Lord of the Sabbath and was there at creation.


The weekly Sabbath day is a foretaste of the "rest" of the millennial kingdom. The Bible is replete with instructions pointing out how to keep the Sabbath, the meaning of the Sabbath, the blessings of keeping the Sabbath, and why the seventh day of the week is important to mankind.

God Sanctified Sabbath on Seventh Day of Creation
Genesis 2:1-3 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had made; and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it [set it apart, made it holy]: because that in it He had rested from all His work which God created and made.
The Creator placed His presence in the Sabbath by resting on that day. He "sanctified" the Sabbath, i.e., separated it, set it apart for holy use or purpose. He, not man, made the Sabbath Holy Time. There were not six days of creation, but seven. On the Seventh Day, the Creator ended His work, not His creating. He created the Sabbath by His rest. He wasn't tired, Isaiah 40:28, but He was refreshed on the Sabbath day, Exodus 31:17, by gaining the satisfaction of contemplating what He had created.
The Sabbath day from Creation has never been lost. Human calendar changes have never upset the weekly cycle. Jewish historians have carefully preserved the Calendar and the weekly cycle down through the ages.

Patriarchs Kept the Sabbath
There is a 2,500-year gap after the Bible mentions the Sabbath in Genesis until it is again brought up at the time Israel leaves Egypt and arrives at Sinai. Nevertheless, it is provable scripturally that the patriarchs kept the Sabbath.

Noah Kept Sabbath and Preached it to Others
Genesis 6:9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.
II Peter 2:5 And [God] spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly.
Psalms 119:172 My tongue shall speak of Thy word: for all Thy commandments are righteousness.

Abraham Obeyed Laws and Commandments
Genesis 26:4-5 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Isaac and Jacob Followed Abraham's Obedience
Hebrews 11:8-10, 13, 20-21, 23 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God . . . . These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth . . . . By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come. By faith Jacob, when he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff . . . . By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king's commandment.
The Sabbath and the seven-day week have continuously been observed. "The Sabbath was recognized as a weekly day of rest in Babylonia as early as 3800 B.C.," (Peloubet's Bible Dictionary, article "Sabbath," p. 573). Epics of Creation, on clay tablets found in the ruins of Babylon, Nineveh, Nippur and Ashur, were in circulation before the time of Abraham. They tell of the seventh day as a "holy day" on which we should "cease from all business," (Halley's Bible Handbook, p. 62). The Sabbath is an ancient venerable institution.

Jesus Kept Sabbath as Special Day of Service


Mark 1:21-22 And they went into Capernaum; and straightway on the Sabbath day He entered into the synagogue, and taught. And they were astonished at His doctrine: for He taught them as one that had authority, and not as the scribes.

Mark 6:2, 5 And when the Sabbath day was come, He began to teach in the synagogue: and many hearing Him were astonished, saying, From whence hath this man these things? and what wisdom is this which is given unto Him, that even such mighty works are wrought by His hands? . . . . And He could there do no mighty work, save that He laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them.
Luke 4:16, 31 And He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up: and, as His custom was, He went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up for to read . . . . And came down to Capernaum, a city of Galilee, and taught them on the Sabbath days.
Luke 13:10 And He was teaching in one of the synagogues on the Sabbath.

The Sabbath is Made for Man
Matthew 12:1-8 At that time Jesus went on the Sabbath day through the corn; and His disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn, and to eat. But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto Him, Behold, Thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the Sabbath day. But He said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him; How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests? Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the Sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath, and are blameless? But I say unto you, That in this place is One greater than the temple. But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless. For the Son of man is Lord even of the Sabbath day.
Mark 2:23-28 And it came to pass, that He went through the corn fields on the Sabbath day; and His disciples began, as they went, to pluck the ears of corn. And the Pharisees said unto Him, Behold, why do they on the Sabbath day that which is not lawful? And He said unto them, Have ye never read what David did, when he had need, and was an hungred, he, and they that were with him? How he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest, and did eat the shewbread, which is not lawful to eat but for the priests, and gave also to them which were with him? And He said unto them, The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath: Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the Sabbath.

[Jimlarmore]

Clearly, when you think about the definition of the word sanctified as set aside for holy use you need to ask yourself for whose use was this day set aside for? God only? Where in this text or context do we find support for that idea? It says God rested from all of His work on the 7th day and set it aside for special use.

If we look at the fouth commandment in Ex 20 we find that right after God commands us to keep the day holy and not to do any work it gives us the reason we are to do that , when it says, "For in six days the Lord made the heaven and the earth, the sea and all that in them is and rested the 7th day wherefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it,". This tells us that the Sabbath is a memorial of creation and man indeed was thought of when the Sabbath was established at creation. That the reason we are to keep the Sabbath is because God is the creator and requires us to keep it holy. It's a day set aside for man to rest both physically and spiritually. A day of delight where we can commune with out creator and receive a special blessing.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

[Cribstyl]

The Bible uses the word sanctified to discribe what God did for the Sabbath day. (No, it describe why. "because God rested on the 7th day)

Sanctified is defined as set aside for holy use. (No. defines as "set aside")

Everything God did during the creation week was for man the crowning glory of His creation. (unrelated)
We were created in the image of God and were made perfect. (unrelated)

Jesus who is fully God told us why the Sabbath was made when He said the Sabbath was made for man not man for the Sabbath. (unrelated, (argument); God's rest is not the sabbath)

So if we follow the words of Christ it is certain why the Sabbath was made, it was for man. BTW, there were no Jews around at creation only one man and one woman. (unrelated,(argument); Christ meant when it was given to men)

God Bless
Jim Larmore
Your assessment above are comments that go beyond what is written in Genesis by Moses account.

Clearly, when you think about the definition of the word sanctified as set aside for holy use you need to ask yourself for whose use was this day set aside for? God only? Where in this text or context do we find support for that idea? It says God rested from all of His work on the 7th day and set it aside for special use.

Sorry for a long post but I have to post this


Absolutely false.. the word qadash {kaw-dash'} is defined as; to consecrate, sanctify, prepare, dedicate, be hallowed, be holy, be sanctified, be separate.

When you said "set aside" I agreed with you but when you said "for special use" you went too far in you definition of what sanctified means.
The text tell us why it was sanctified....
".....sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made."


This does not imply "holy use by man" Nor does this text give us liberty to talk about Adam entering God's rest.

Again I say, what is sanctified by God, for God own purpose cannot be defiled by man. That is why noone had entered God's rest until Christ died upon the cross.
But we all know that the children of Israel defiled the sabbath.

Hbr 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left [us] of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
( How could it be one of seven days if one could come short of it?)

Hbr 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard [it].
( "Us" and "them" are Jew and gentiles who the heard the Gospel preached, they did not profit because of unbelief in Jesus Christ but we have faith in Him)


Hbr 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
(Believers in Jesus can enter God rest. I swore that some can enter , the exact rest He entered where He finish creating the world)

Hbr 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh [day] on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.

As written in Gen2:2,3..about THE SEVENTH DAY where God rest from all his creating.


Hbr 4:5 And in this [place] again, If they shall enter into my rest.
(And again after that saying "If they shall get into my rest)


Hbr 4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:

(So if God rest was still vacant it's a place not a day)

Hbr 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
(Today, (Now) is the day to get in, if He's calling you

Hbr 4:8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
If they were in God rest why even mention another day?

Hbr 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
God's rest is available to people

Hbr 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God [did] from his.
The people that enter God's rest are tranformed

Hbr 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Let's work at it

Respectfully
CRIB

[Cribstyl]

Q: If someone new to the bible would study Gen 2:1-3 in context, then read the rest of the Bible have reason to believe that Sabbath rest was given to Adam?

A: Yes, ITS CLEAR AS A BELL, as God repeats it many times in scripture and also defines it in the NT who it was made for at creation and Jesus kept the Sabbath.........

It didnt say the Sabbath was made for the fish, or birds or animals, it said it was made for man (and Adam was the first man) and Jesus should know as He is Lord of the Sabbath and was there at creation.:scratch: What you are saying is clear as a bell, is not so clear in your answer?

Christ is saying that, sabbath was given for men to enjoy as a day of rest, rather that men were created for the purpose of keeping the sabbath."

My point is that Christ is not talking about a creation timeline as you use this text, but rather the purpose of the sabbath when it was given to men.

In Genesis 4th day account, God set the Sun and the Moon in motion to rule day and night and seasons........... So, the 7th day week cycle was created before man was born on the 6th day.


Gen 1:14 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Gen&chapter=1&verse=14&version=kjv#14)¶And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:



CRIB

[reddogs]

Well, lets turn the question around...
Q.If you read Gen 2:1-3, what day did God at creation rest, bless, make holy?
A. The Seventh day, not the sixth, fifth, fourth, third, second or first, but the seventh.



1 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array.
2 By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested [a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Gen%202:1-3&version=31#fen-NIV-33a)] from all his work. 3 And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.
Gen 2:1-3

[Cribstyl]

Well, lets turn the question around...
Q.If you read Gen 2:1-3, what day did God at creation set aside as the Sabbath?
A. The Seventh day, not the sixth, fifth, fourth, third, second or first, but the seventh.



1 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array.
2 By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested [a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Gen%202:1-3&version=31#fen-NIV-33a)] from all his work. 3 And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.
Gen 2:1-3

The seventh day was the day God rested.
The seventh day was the day God gave the Children of Israel as a Sabbath. Ex16 shows the first sabbath.

Text proves that the seventh day is a sign for Israel to prove that their God is the God that created the world in six days and rested on the seventh.

Exd 31:13 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Exd/Exd031.html#13) Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it [is] a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that [ye] may know that I [am] the LORD that doth sanctify you.


The first three commandment proves that they worshipped other God after comming out of Egypt and they had to be commanded not to continue making God jealous. So the forth commandment was evidence that they worship the creator.

So Yes we agree that the seventh day is the Sabbath. Disagreement comes when we get ahead of understanding what is written.

CRIB

[Jimlarmore]

[/color]
Your assessment above are comments that go beyond what is written in Genesis by Moses account.


I am only defining what sanctify means here. It is defined even by your own words as set aside for holy use. You say I go beyond what is indicated here but you are spinning the real meaning of the texts in question.

Let's use some logic shall we? Please anwer me this question. Did God need to rest from His work on the 7the day? Why did God sanctify this day and make it different than the other six? Was it for God that it was sanctified only or was it for man? The fact that God is forever the same and Holy anyway, it doesn't make sense that the Sabbath was made and sanctified for God's use only. No way, God according to Jesus Christ made the Sabbath for man's use. The Sabbath was a period on the end of the sentence we call the creation week. However, it did a lot more than that. By resting from His work God gave us an example of the holy rest we are to enter into as well. The Sabbath was to be called a delight the Holy of the Lord. The Sabbath is the Lord's day and is a sign between God and His people.



Absolutely false.. the word qadash {kaw-dash'} is defined as; to consecrate, sanctify, prepare, dedicate, be hallowed, be holy, be sanctified, be separate.

Here's the definition from a on-line dictionary:

tr.v. sanc·ti·fied, sanc·ti·fy·ing, sanc·ti·fies 1. To set apart for sacred use; consecrate.
2. To make holy; purify.
3. To give religious sanction to, as with an oath or vow: sanctify a marriage.
4. To give social or moral sanction to.
5. To make productive of holiness or spiritual blessing.


When you said "set aside" I agreed with you but when you said "for special use" you went too far in you definition of what sanctified means.
The text tell us why it was sanctified....
".....sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made."

Why wouldn't set aside for sacred use also be considered special use? Why do you feel that is going too far? I don't get it.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

[Cribstyl]

[/color]

I am only defining what sanctify means here. It is defined even by your own words as set aside for holy use. You say I go beyond what is indicated here but you are spinning the real meaning of the texts in question.

Let's use some logic shall we? Please anwer me this question. Did God need to rest from His work on the 7the day? Why did God sanctify this day and make it different than the other six? Was it for God that it was sanctified only or was it for man? The fact that God is forever the same and Holy anyway, it doesn't make sense that the Sabbath was made and sanctified for God's use only. No way, God according to Jesus Christ made the Sabbath for man's use. The Sabbath was a period on the end of the sentence we call the creation week. However, it did a lot more than that. By resting from His work God gave us an example of the holy rest we are to enter into as well. The Sabbath was to be called a delight the Holy of the Lord. The Sabbath is the Lord's day and is a sign between God and His people.


[/b]

Here's the definition from a on-line dictionary:


[/color]

Why wouldn't set aside for sacred use also be considered special use? Why do you feel that is going too far? I don't get it.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

The text say that God set aside the seventh day for Himself to rest from creating not from being tired (strawman).

10 noun/pronoun in Gen 2:2,3 tells us that it's all about God and not about man.
Yes man was created on the sixth day, but let's not add to God's creation account as it is written :doh:

When you say "Holy use"...then somehow "reason" man entering rest.....I'm not having it.;)

Text say that God sanctified the seventh day because "He finished,"(Gen 2:2) "He ended his work" (Gen2:2,3)....that's what is written, so that's what we can apply to understanding.

In Love
CRIB

[ricker]

Clearly, when you think about the definition of the word sanctified as set aside for holy use you need to ask yourself for whose use was this day set aside for? God only? Where in this text or context do we find support for that idea? It says God rested from all of His work on the 7th day and set it aside for special use.

If we look at the fouth commandment in Ex 20 we find that right after God commands us to keep the day holy and not to do any work it gives us the reason we are to do that , when it says, "For in six days the Lord made the heaven and the earth, the sea and all that in them is and rested the 7th day wherefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it,". This tells us that the Sabbath is a memorial of creation and man indeed was thought of when the Sabbath was established at creation. That the reason we are to keep the Sabbath is because God is the creator and requires us to keep it holy. It's a day set aside for man to rest both physically and spiritually. A day of delight where we can commune with out creator and receive a special blessing.

God Bless
Jim Larmore
Hope it's OK if I butt in. Notice in the Genesis account Moses doesn't say when it was blessed and sancified. Since Moses wrote Genesis long after God gave him the ten, it could very well be he was writing about the blessing and sanctifying God did in giving the Sabbath to the Israelites. This certainly makes sense considering there is no mention of the Sabbath before the exodus. Moses uses these anachronisms in other places in his writings.
Also, in Duet. the authority given for the Sabbath command is the Israelites deliverance from Egypt. Seems to apply to only a specific people to me.
Also the plain Word of God says in Nehemiah 9: " 13 "You came down on Mount Sinai; you spoke to them from heaven. You gave them regulations and laws that are just and right, and decrees and commands that are good. 14 You made known to them your holy Sabbath and gave them commands, decrees and laws through your servant Moses."
So the COI knew all about the Sabbath before the manna? Care to try to explain away that passage? God bless! Ricker

[Cribstyl]

Hope it's OK if I butt in. Notice in the Genesis account Moses doesn't say when it was blessed and sancified. Since Moses wrote Genesis long after God gave him the ten, it could very well be he was writing about the blessing and sanctifying God did in giving the Sabbath to the Israelites. This certainly makes sense considering there is no mention of the Sabbath before the exodus. Moses uses these anachronisms in other places in his writings.
Also, in Duet. the authority given for the Sabbath command is the Israelites deliverance from Egypt. Seems to apply to only a specific people to me.
Also the plain Word of God says in Nehemiah 9: " 13 "You came down on Mount Sinai; you spoke to them from heaven. You gave them regulations and laws that are just and right, and decrees and commands that are good. 14 You made known to them your holy Sabbath and gave them commands, decrees and laws through your servant Moses."
So the COI knew all about the Sabbath before the manna? Care to try to explain away that passage? God bless! Ricker
:thumbsup: Welcome to CF, welcome friend, Those are some of my understandings found in scripture as well :D

When Jesus said "it is written" that was confirmation that the books called "The Law and the Prophets" are the word of God. And epecially the fact the Jesus also said the He came to make every written prophecy of the word true.

To think that when Paul spoke about the Children of Israel in Romans 9 He made it clear that.....4 Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises.

Proving that all the rest of world was not called of God untill Christ died.

Rom 9:25 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Rom&chapter=9&verse=25&version=kjv#25)As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

Rom 9:26 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Rom&chapter=9&verse=26&version=kjv#26)And it shall come to pass, [that] in the place where it was said unto them, Ye [are] not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

We should celebrate when God adopted us as His children, we're joint heirs. Why should were act as if God commanded us to keep the sabbath?

My point is every man were not given the sabbath or God would have held them accountable for what they transgress.
When God destroyed the world in the flood, no mention that they broke the sabbath. If sabbath was given, that would have sent a clear message about Sabbath to all the world, especially to Noah and His family. God command them to eat meat, without blood, but no sabbath command.

From the time that sabbath was given it was reenforces hundred of times to whom it was given.

CRIB

[Cribstyl]

I've asks Rabbis about the Shabbat

Chabad.org: Ask the Rabbi { Incident No. 428736 }

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
:: On 2/6/2007 you wrote:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

With all due respects.

Was Adam given the law or sabbath, when did G-d first given His laws?


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
:: On 2/7/2007 Chana Benjaminson responded:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

B"H

Dear CRIB,

G-d gave some laws orally to Adam and Abraham and these were
transmitted to Isaac, Jacob and the children of Israel who observed the laws
which were then given in entirety at Mount Sinai.

If you need further assistance feel free to contact us again,

Best wishes,

Chani Benjaminson
Chabad.org (http://chabad.org/)
P.S. Daily Life & Practice in Judaism:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
:: On 3/7/2007 you responded:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Thank you....Was the shabbath one of those laws and is there any
reference to know which laws were first given at Sinai. I've heard of the
Noahide laws, what were those laws.


thank you
CRIB

Please use the following link to reply to this message:
http://www.chabad.org/go.asp?p=resp&id=616294,428736,78,625727 (http://www.chabad.org/go.asp?p=resp&id=616294,428736,78,625727)
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
On 3/13/2007 Chana Benjaminson responded:
~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~

B"H

the Ten Commandments were given at Sinai as is recorded in Exodus,
chabad.org/2896, (http://chabad.org/2896,) for the noahide laws see:

http://www.chabad.org/62221 (http://www.chabad.org/62221)
http://www.chabad.org/1313 (http://www.chabad.org/1313)
http://www.chabad.org/132930 (http://www.chabad.org/132930)
http://www.momentmag.com/features/oct06/2006-10_Noahides.htm (http://www.momentmag.com/features/oct06/2006-10_Noahides.htm) l


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Eila]

It's a day set aside for man to rest both physically and spiritually. A day of delight where we can commune with out creator and receive a special blessing.


You mentioned that the Sabbath was a day to rest physically and spiritually. How do you work spiritually the rest of the week?

Also, what is the special blessing that you mention?

[reddogs]

So the Sabbath was given orally to Adam, I guess that goes without saying as they all were told directly the creation story by Adam himself in the many generations he lived.

[Jon0388g]

You've said:
This is why God's rest is not a weekly day but rather the place of His throne outside of time.

and:


God's seventh day is figurative of when God ceased His six days of creation and entered His rest on the throne.
The place of God's rest is sanctified by God and can never be defiled by man.

Do men defile the sabbath? Yes all the time

But then, you said:

Your assessment above are comments that go beyond what is written in Genesis by Moses account.

Double standards, Crib?


Where is anything about God resting on His throne? This infers that God was so exhausted after all His creation He had to slump in His chair.

Exodus 20:8-11 references the Creation account. It also explicitly says "therefore, God blessed the Sabbath day..."

This plainly shows the same seventh-day that was blessed in Genesis is exactly what is called "Sabbath" in Exodus. No twisting needed Crib.

Also, you cannot get around the fact that the seventh-day Sabbath was blessed and sanctified pre-fall in Eden. It could not have served as any shadow/type to a rest in Christ, or whatever. This is a mute argument.

Jon

[Cribstyl]

So the Sabbath was given orally to Adam, I guess that goes without saying as they all were told directly the creation story by Adam himself in the many generations he lived.

Where do you get that understanding from?
Here are what protestant majority believes

http://www.gotquestions.org/Saturday-Sunday.html

What day is the Sabbath, Saturday or Sunday? Do Christians have to observe the Sabbath day?



http://www.gotquestions.org/images/1x1-blue.gif http://www.gotquestions.org/images/mp3-audio.gif (http://www.gotquestions.org/audio/Sabbath-Saturday-Sunday.mp3)

Question:"What day is the Sabbath, Saturday or Sunday? Do Christians have to observe the Sabbath day?"

Answer: It is often claimed that "God instituted the Sabbath in Eden" because of the connection between the Sabbath and creation in Exodus 20:11. Although God's rest on the seventh day (Genesis 2:3) did foreshadow a future Sabbath law, there is no biblical record of the Sabbath before the children of Israel left the land of Egypt. Nowhere in Scripture is there any hint that Sabbath-keeping was practiced from Adam to Moses.
The Word of God makes it quite clear that Sabbath observance was a special sign between God and Israel: "And Moses went up to God, and the Lord called to him from the mountain, saying, "Thus you shall say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel: 'You have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles' wings and brought you to Myself. Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be a special treasure to Me above all people; for all the earth is Mine'" (Exodus 19:3–5).
“Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever; for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed” (Exodus 31:16–17).

..............
The Sabbath was given to Israel, not the church. The Sabbath is still Saturday, not Sunday, and has never been changed. But the Sabbath is part of the Old Testament Law, and Christians are free from the bondage of the Law (Galatians 4:1-26; Romans 6:14). Sabbath keeping is not required of the Christian—be it Saturday or Sunday. The first day of the week, Sunday, the Lord's Day (Revelation 1:10) celebrates the New Creation, with Christ as our resurrected Head. We are not obligated to follow the Mosaic Sabbath—resting, but are now free to follow the risen Christ—serving. The Apostle Paul said that each individual Christian should decide whether to observe a Sabbath rest, “One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind” (Romans 14:5). We are to worship God every day, not just on Saturday or Sunday.

That's what you'll find out if you apply the bible to understanding rather that "reasoning with no biblical evidence"


CRIB

[djconklin]

Nowhere in Scripture is there any hint that Sabbath-keeping was practiced from Adam to Moses.

That is argument from silence; the Bible also doesn't say much about people wearing underwear either. That doesn't mean that they didn't. There's no record of them washing their hands before eating or after having gone to the bathroom (or using TP!), but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. The fact that Moses didn't have to explain what the Sabbath was a month before Sinai indicates that they knew what it was about. The fact that in over 100 languages (created at the Tower of Babel) the seventh day of the week is known as "sabbath" indicates that they knew what it was at that time.

[djconklin]

But the Sabbath is part of the Old Testament Law, and Christians are free from the bondage of the Law (Galatians 4:1-26; Romans 6:14).

And yet when it is all boiled down 9 out of the 10 still apply to you today: you cannot worship other gods, you can't use God's name as a swear word, you can't make idols and bow down to them, you can't kill, commit adultery, etc., etc.. Now why would we have to obey 9 but not the one that points to God was your Creator? Why do they always leaved out mentioning the rationale for that law? Why is it that the law that starts with the word "remember" we are free to disobey? But, not the other nine?

[Cribstyl]

Nowhere in Scripture is there any hint that Sabbath-keeping was practiced from Adam to Moses.


That is argument from silence; the Bible also doesn't say much about people wearing underwear either. That doesn't mean that they didn't. There's no record of them washing their hands before eating or after having gone to the bathroom (or using TP!), but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. The fact that Moses didn't have to explain what the Sabbath was a month before Sinai indicates that they knew what it was about. The fact that in over 100 languages (created at the Tower of Babel) the seventh day of the week is known as "sabbath" indicates that they knew what it was at that time.

:doh: I disagree, That statement is either true or false.
The fact is, you believe it's false but you have no proof:D

Rather than you showing biblical proof that Sabbath was kept from Adam-Moses, you raised some fasle arguments.

A) Sabbath arguments are not "from silence" in the bible, once sabbath was given, it's became one of the consistent violations noted in text (unlike your strawman examples )

B) There is a record of the first sabbath (Ex16)

C) 40yrs of manna means, 40yrs of Sabbaths before Sinai, So yes, they REMEMBERED the Sabbath and how to keep it holy before they were given commandment.


In addition to these facts God declared in text when He gave the sabbath to the children of Israel and not any clue that anyone from Adam-Moses heard of a Sabbath.


Example: Let's say, I baked cakes and named them #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7.
Let's say I gave you #7 as a gift to keep.
What I have given you is #7 as a gift. The gift didnt come to you until I gave it to you.

My example is to show that until I give #7 to you, it's not called a gift(sabbath) but my #7. So after it's given as a gift, we can say that God gave a sabbath.

That why Genesis 2 says "God rested on the Seventh day" and not the sabbath day because it was'nt given as yet.

In Ex16 God used sabbath to prove if they would accept #7 as a gift or not.. For 40yrsThey did not keep it..The words of Moses is clear when God first gave the sabbath...." Exd 16:23 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Exd&chapter=16&verse=23&version=kjv#23)And he said unto them, This [is that] which the LORD hath said, To morrow [is] the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD:

Exd 16:25 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Exd&chapter=16&verse=25&version=kjv#25)And Moses said, Eat that to day; for to day [is] a sabbath unto the LORD: to day ye shall not find it in the field.


Then in Ex20 God commanded that they keep it and gave the reason to keep it because it was His #7. So those who relate cake #7 as a gift back when I baked it have to prove that I gave it away in the begining


My argument is cake#7 became a gift when it was given to man, and not when I baked it in the begining.

Gen 1 through Gen 2:1-3 speaks only about the actions of God creating the world.

Sheeze.....I hope you reply in review of my comments.


Peace
CRIB

[Cribstyl]

150AD JUSTIN: Moreover, all those righteous men already mentioned [after mentioning Adam. Abel, Enoch, Lot, Noah, Melchizedek, and Abraham], though they kept no Sabbaths, were pleasing to God; and after them Abraham with all his descendants until Moses... And you [fleshly Jews] were commanded to keep Sabbaths, that you might retain the memorial of God. For His word makes this announcement, saying, "That you may know that I am God who redeemed you." (Dialogue With Trypho the Jew, 150-165 AD, Ante-Nicene Fathers , vol. 1, page 204)


200AD TERTULLIAN: Let him who contends that the Sabbath is still to be observed a balm of salvation, and circumcision on the eighth day because of threat of death, teach us that in earliest times righteous men kept Sabbath or practiced circumcision, and so were made friends of God. .. ...Therefore, since God originated Adam uncircumcised, and inobservant of the Sabbath, consequently his offspring also, Abel, offering Him sacrifices, uncircumcised and inobservant of the Sabbath, was by Him commended... Noah also, uncircumcised - yes, and inobservant of the Sabbath - God freed from the deluge. For Enoch, too, most righteous man, uncircumcised and inobservant of the Sabbath, He translated from this world... Melchizedek also, "the priest of most high God," uncircumcised and inobservant of the Sabbath, was chosen to the priesthood of God. (An Answer to the Jews 2:10; 4:1, Ante-Nicene Fathers Vol. 3, page

[Cribstyl]

[/font]

And yet when it is all boiled down 9 out of the 10 still apply to you today: you cannot worship other gods, you can't use God's name as a swear word, you can't make idols and bow down to them, you can't kill, commit adultery, etc., etc.. Now why would we have to obey 9 but not the one that points to God was your Creator? Why do they always leaved out mentioning the rationale for that law? Why is it that the law that starts with the word "remember" we are free to disobey? But, not the other nine?

That's "reasoning gone wild". Christ commands us to love, and those are His 2 commandments.

Confusion about commandments comes when His apostles teaches His commandments to love, and Sabbatarian claim that they reference to the 10.com, (are you guilty)


We all know that God is Holy, so sin has always been unrighteousness. So dont we were approve of sinful conduct. When we love out enemies, killing and stealing is not love.

Text says "we not under the law".. We're not under Law, this mean we're under love.

As a Holy vessel unto God, He walks in us and teaches us His ways (His covenant promise.) The Laws with the penalty of death are for those who live in the world.


CRIB

[Cribstyl]

You've said:

This is why God's rest is not a weekly day but rather the place of His throne outside of time.
and:



God's seventh day is figurative of when God ceased His six days of creation and entered His rest on the throne.
The place of God's rest is sanctified by God and can never be defiled by man.

Do men defile the sabbath? Yes all the time


But then, you said:

Your assessment above are comments that go beyond what is written in Genesis by Moses account.



Double standards, Crib?

Where is anything about God resting on His throne?

This infers that God was so exhausted after all His creation He had to slump in His chair.

:D :D That's funny Jon , but that's false reasoning.
..................................................................
Reply to your accusation of double standards
#1By all the text written about "God's rest" the sabbath proves to be a sign of God's rest not the real thing, so the reason why I say on His rest is on the throne is because Christ was the first(firstfruit) to enter God's rest, and He was given a seat on the right hand side of the father. God's throne does not represent rest for a tired God, it represents among other things The seat of The Kings of Kings, the seat of authority and judgement.
#2.Text doesnt say that God rested weekly, the text teaches that God's rest meant "to cease" He was finished His work of creation. So he's collecting retirement from His creation business:D .
So with no additional day of work implied the question is how long is His rest?
To read text that shows, that noone entered God rest until Christ did, is tangerble proof that God's rest was not a 24hrs day but rather, 6000yrs and still waiting for you to get into it.;)
God's rest is a place at the end of time. He is both the begining and the end, thus not restricted to time like finite creatures.



Exodus 20:8-11 references the Creation account. It also explicitly says "therefore, God blessed the Sabbath day..."

This plainly shows the same seventh-day that was blessed in Genesis is exactly what is called "Sabbath" in Exodus. No twisting needed Crib.

Friend, I understand your beliefs but I disagree base on understanding scripture.
Exd 20:8 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Exd&chapter=20&verse=8&version=kjv#8)¶Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

This text commands the Children of Israel (COI) to keep the sabbath day holy....(But this is not an entrance to God's rest.)

Exd 20:9 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Exd&chapter=20&verse=9&version=kjv#9)Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
This text commands the COI to confine work to 6 days

Exd 20:10 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Exd&chapter=20&verse=10&version=kjv#10)But the seventh day [is] the sabbath of the LORD thy God: [in it] thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that [is] within thy gates:
This text command the COI to use the 7th day as a Sabbath, a day of rest for them and and everyone within their borders eveth the animals and visitors (No sabbath implied to those outside their borders)

Exd 20:11 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Exd&chapter=20&verse=11&version=kjv#11)For [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them [is], and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Because, God made everything in heaven and earth in 6days and rested on the seventh day.

For that reason the sabbath day is blessed and made a holy day.




Also, you cannot get around the fact that the seventh-day Sabbath was blessed and sanctified pre-fall in Eden. It could not have served as any shadow/type to a rest in Christ, or whatever. This is a mute argument.

Jon


Sheeze, too many issues means we're just making noise and not comming to agreement on anything.

Pick one and lets back it up with truth.
IN PEACE
CRIB

[Cribstyl]

Help me Oh God to be reasonable in dailog with people I dont agree with............They seem to be offended when I ask them straight questions. It seem as if unless I'm following their post they wont dialog with me. They abruptly run off or they're find someone who they can pour their teachings on. Season my words with honey and help me to be a better commi, commu, comunicat..........you know.

:amen:

CRIB:cool:

[Cribstyl]

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/shabbat.html#Zachor


The Nature of Shabbat

The Sabbath (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/Shabbattoc.html) (or Shabbat, as it is called in Hebrew) is one of the best known and least understood of all Jewish observances. People who do not observe Shabbat think of it as a day filled with stifling restrictions, or as a day of prayer like the Christian Sabbath. But to those who observe Shabbat, it is a precious gift from G-d (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/g-d.html), a day of great joy eagerly awaited throughout the week, a time when we can set aside all of our weekday concerns and devote ourselves to higher pursuits. In Jewish literature, poetry and music, Shabbat is described as a bride or queen, as in the popular Shabbat hymn Lecha Dodi Likrat Kallah (come, my beloved, to meet the [Sabbath] bride). It is said "more than Israel has kept Shabbat, Shabbat has kept Israel."
Shabbat is the most important ritual observance in Judaism (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/judaism.html). It is the only ritual (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/ritual.html) observance instituted in the Ten Commandments (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/command.html). It is also the most important special day, even more important than Yom Kippur (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/holiday4.html). This is clear from the fact that more aliyahs (opportunities for congregants to be called up to the Torah (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/The_Written_Law.html)) are given on Shabbat than on any other day.
Shabbat is primarily a day of rest and spiritual enrichment. The word "Shabbat" comes from the root Shin-Bet-Tav, meaning to cease, to end, or to rest.
Shabbat is not specifically a day of prayer (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/praytoc.html). Although we do pray on Shabbat, and spend a substantial amount of time in synagogue praying, prayer is not what distinguishes Shabbat from the rest of the week. Observant Jews pray every day, three times a day. See Jewish Liturgy (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/liturgy.html). To say that Shabbat is a day of prayer is no more accurate than to say that Shabbat is a day of feasting: we eat every day, but on Shabbat, we eat more elaborately and in a more leisurely fashion. The same can be said of prayer on Shabbat.
In modern America, we take the five-day work-week so much for granted that we forget what a radical concept a day of rest was in ancient times. The weekly day of rest has no parallel in any other ancient civilization. In ancient times, leisure was for the wealthy and the ruling classes only, never for the serving or laboring classes. In addition, the very idea of rest each week was unimaginable. The Greeks thought Jews were lazy because we insisted on having a "holiday" every seventh day.
Shabbat involves two interrelated commandments: to remember (zachor) the Sabbath, and to observe (shamor) the Sabbath.

[Cribstyl]

Zachor: To Remember

We are commanded to remember Shabbat; but remembering means much more than merely not forgetting to observe Shabbat. It also means to remember the significance of Shabbat, both as a commemoration of creation and as a commemoration of our freedom from slavery in Egypt.
In Exodus 20:11 (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Bible/Exodus20.html), after Fourth Commandment is first instituted, G-d explains, "because for six days, the L-rd made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and on the seventh day, he rested; therefore, the L-rd blessed the Sabbath day and sanctified it." By resting on the seventh day and sanctifying it, we remember and acknowledge that G-d is the creator of heaven and earth and all living things. We also emulate the divine example, by refraining from work on the seventh day, as G-d did. If G-d's work can be set aside for a day of rest, how can we believe that our own work is too important to set aside temporarily?
In Deuteronomy 5:15 (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Bible/Deuter5.html), while Moses (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/moses.html) reiterates the Ten Commandments, he notes the second thing that we must remember on Shabbat: "remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the L-rd, your G-d brought you forth from there with a might hand and with an outstretched arm; therefore the L-rd your G-d commanded you to observe the Sabbath day."
What does the Exodus have to do with resting on the seventh day? It's all about freedom. As I said before, in ancient times, leisure was confined to certain classes; slaves did not get days off. Thus, by resting on the Sabbath, we are reminded that we are free. But in a more general sense, Shabbat frees us from our weekday concerns, from our deadlines and schedules and commitments. During the week, we are slaves to our jobs, to our creditors, to our need to provide for ourselves; on Shabbat, we are freed from these concerns, much as our ancestors were freed from slavery in Egypt.
We remember these two meanings of Shabbat when we recite kiddush (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/Shabbat2.html) (the prayer over wine sanctifying the Sabbath or a holiday (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/holiday0.html)). Friday night kiddush refers to Shabbat as both zikkaron l'ma'aseh bereishit (a memorial of the work in the beginning) and zeicher litzi'at mitzrayim (a remembrance of the exodus from Egypt).
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CRIB'S Comments: These sabbath truths do not contradict Genesis or Exodus, they are well recieved and consistent with the flow of the bible especially the Old Testament.

First observation is the Jews called the sabbath command the 4th commandment.....Why do catholics call it #3:confused:

In Ex20:8-11 They seperate the commandment from the explantion. This proves the reason for the sabbath being first instituted at Sinai is because of what God did in creation,(God rested on the seventh) rather than making a silent connection of God giving Adam the sabbath.


CRIB

[Cribstyl]

www.jewfaq.org/shabbat.htm (http://www.jewfaq.org/shabbat.htm)

[reddogs]

Yet Gods truth on the Sabbath still stands.....


Here is a good thread on this..
http://www.christianforums.com/t5139627-only-for-sabbath-observers-7th-day-or-1st-day.html

[reddogs]

Hallowed by the Creator's rest and blessing, the Sabbath was kept by Adam in his innocence in holy Eden; by Adam, fallen yet repentant, when he was driven from his happy estate. It was kept by all the patriarchs, from Abel to righteous Noah, to Abraham, to Jacob. When the chosen people were in bondage in Egypt, many, in the midst of prevailing idolatry, lost their knowledge of God's law; but when the Lord delivered Israel, he proclaimed his law in awful grandeur to the assembled multitude, that they might know his will, and fear and obey him forever.

From that day to the present, the knowledge of God's law has been preserved in the earth, and the Sabbath of the fourth commandment has been kept. Though the papalpower succeeded in trampling under foot God's holy day, yet even in the period of his supremacy there were, hidden in secret places, faithful souls who paid it honor. Since the Reformation, there have been some in every generation to maintain its observance. Though persecution, a constant testimony has been borne to the perpetuity of the law of God, and the sacred obligation of the creation Sabbath.

[reddogs]

If you have no way to worship God, how can you truly have a relationship with Him and come to Love him. That's why the Sabbath was given as a gift and to keep paganism and heathenism from substituting worship to the sun gods of Baal or the earth gods, or wooden gods or any gods other than the true Creator.

[reddogs]

"In the beginning God (http://www.sabbathtruth.com/Sabbath_Jesus.asp) created the heaven and the earth." "And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it." Genesis 1:1; 2:2, 3.

God made the Sabbath at the time of Creation, after He made the world and everything in it. God rested on the Sabbath and blessed and sanctified it (set it apart for a holy use).

"And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:" Mark 2:27

The Sabbath and the family were alike instituted in Eden, and in God's purpose they are perpetually linked together. On this day more than on any other, it is possible for us to live the life of Eden. It was God's plan for the members of the family to be associated in work and study, in worship and recreation, the father as priest of his household, and both father and mother as teachers and companions of their children. But the results of sin, having changed the conditions of life, to a great degree prevent this association. Often the father hardly sees the faces of his children throughout the week. He is almost wholly deprived of opportunity for companionship or instruction. But God's love has set a limit to the demands of toil. Over the Sabbath He places His merciful hand. In His own day He preserves for the family opportunity for communion with Him, with nature, and with one another.

The Sabbath is a sign of creative and redeeming power; it points to God as the source of life and knowledge; it recalls man's primeval glory, and thus witnesses to God's purpose to re-create us in His own image. The Sabbath of the Lord bears His name and seal. "It is a sign," He says, "between Me and you; . . . that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you." because "in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day, and hallowed it." Exodus 31:13; 20:11.

[reddogs]

The Sabbath
"Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the seventh day God ended his work which he made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made." Genesis 2:1-3

Jesus
"And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up for to read." Luke 4:16

Jesus
"And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." Matthew 19:16-17

Jesus
"But pray ye that your flight be not in winter, neither on the Sabbath day." Matthew 24:20.
Jesus asked his disciples to pray that in the flight from the doomed city of Jerusalem they would not have to flee on the Sabbath day. This flight took place in 70 A.D. (40 years after the Cross).

His Followers
"And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments and rested the Sabbath day according to the commandment." Luke 23:56

Paul
"And Paul, as his manner was went in unto them, and three Sabbath days reasoned with them out of the Scriptures" Acts 17:2

Paul And Gentiles
"And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath. And the next Sabbath came almost the whole city together to hear the Word of God." Acts 13:42, 44.
Here we find Gentiles in a Gentile city gathering on the Sabbath. It was not a synagogue meeting in verse 44, for it says almost the whole city came together, verse 42 says they asked to hear the message the "next Sabbath."

Josephus
"There is not any city of the Grecians, nor any of the Barbarians, nor any nation whatsoever, whither our custom of resting on the seventh day hath not come!" M'Clatchie, "Notes and Queries on China and Japan" (edited by Dennys), Vol 4, Nos 7, 8, p.100.

Philo
Declares the seventh day to be a festival, not of this or of that city, but of the universe. M'Clatchie, "Notes and Queries," Vol. 4, 99

[Cribstyl]

Yet Gods truth on the Sabbath still stands.....


Here is a good thread on this..
http://www.christianforums.com/t5139627-only-for-sabbath-observers-7th-day-or-1st-day.html


.....As long as the Sun and Moon stay in their places


Gen 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

Gen 1:15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

Gen 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: [he made] the stars also.

Gen 1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

Gen 1:18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that [it was] good.

[reddogs]

Early Christians
"The primitive Christians had a great veneration for the Sabbath, and spent the day in devotion and sermons. And it is not to be doubted but they derived this practice from the Apostles themselves, as appears by several scriptures to the purpose." "Dialogues on the Lord's Day," p. 189. London: 1701, By Dr. T.H. Morer (A Church of England divine).

Early Christians
"...The Sabbath was a strong tie which united them with the life of the whole people, and in keeping the Sabbath holy they followed not only the example but also the command of Jesus." "Geschichte des Sonntags," pp.13, 14

2nd Century Christians
"The Gentile Christians observed also the Sabbath," Gieseler's "Church History," Vol.1, ch. 2, par. 30, 93.

Early Christians
"The primitive Christians did keep the Sabbath of the Jews;...therefore the Christians, for a long time together, did keep their conventions upon the Sabbath, in which some portions of the law were read: and this continued till the time of the Laodicean council." "The Whole Works" of Jeremy Taylor, Vol. IX,p. 416 (R. Heber's Edition, Vol XII, p. 416).

Early Church
"It is certain that the ancient Sabbath did remain and was observed (together with the celebration of the Lord's day) by the Christians of the East Church, above three hundred years after our Saviour's death." "A Learned Treatise of the Sabbath," p. 77

Note: By the "Lord's day" here the writer means Sunday and not the true Sabbath," which the Bible says is the Sabbath. This quotation shows Sunday coming into use in the early centuries soon after the death of the Apostles. Paul the Apostle foretold a great "falling away" from the Truth that would take place soon after his death.

2nd, 3rd, 4th Centuries
"From the apostles' time until the council of Laodicea, which was about the year 364, the holy observance of the Jews' Sabbath continued, as may be proved out of many authors: yea, notwithstanding the decree of the council against it." "Sunday a Sabbath." John Ley, p.163. London: 1640.

Egypt (Oxyrhynchus Papyrus) (200-250 A.D.)
"Except ye make the sabbath a real sabbath (sabbatize the Sabbath," Greek), ye shall not see the Father." "The oxyrhynchus Papyri," pt,1, p.3, Logion 2, verso 4-11 (London Offices of the Egypt Exploration Fund, 1898).

Early Christians-C 3rd
"Thou shalt observe the Sabbath, on account of Him who ceased from His work of creation, but ceased not from His work of providence: it is a rest for meditation of the law, not for idleness of the hands." "The Anti-Nicene Fathers," Vol 7,p. 413. From "Constitutions of the Holy Apostles," a document of the 3rd and 4th Centuries.

Africa (Alexandria) Origen
"After the festival of the unceasing sacrifice (the crucifixion) is put the second festival of the Sabbath, and it is fitting for whoever is righteous among the saints to keep also the festival of the Sabbath. There remaineth therefore a sabbatismus, that is, a keeping of the Sabbath, to the people of God (Hebrews 4:9)." "Homily on Numbers 23," par.4, in Migne, "Patrologia Graeca," Vol. 12,cols. 749, 750.

Palestine to India (Church of the East)
As early as A.D. 225 there existed lallrge bishoprics or conferences of the Church of the East (Sabbath-keeping) stretching from Palestine to India. Mingana, "Early Spread of Christianity." Vol.10, p. 460.

India (Buddhist Controversy, 220 A.D.)
The Kushan Dynasty of North India called a famous council of Buddhist priests at Vaisalia to bring uniformity among the Buddhist monks on the observance of their weekly Sabbath. Some had been so impressed by the writings of the Old Testament that they had begun to keep holy the Sabbath. Lloyd, "The Creed of Half Japan," p. 23.

Early Christians
"The seventh-day Sabbath was...solemnised by Christ, the Apostles, and primitive Christians, till the Laodicean Council did in manner quite abolish the observations of it." "Dissertation on the Lord's Day," pp. 33, 34

[reddogs]

They want the Sabbath truth to be hidden ever since they made the laws to change it to the pagan day os the sun:

"On the venerable day of the Sun let the Magistrates and the people residing in the cities rest, and let all workshops be closed." Edict of Constantine A.D. 321

The nominal conversion of Constantine, in the early part of the fourth century, caused great rejoicing; and the world, cloaked with a form of righteousness, walked into the church. Now the work of corruption rapidly progressed. Paganism, while appearing to be vanquished, became the conqueror. Her spirit controlled the church. Her doctrines, ceremonies, and superstitions were incorporated into the faith and worship of the professed followers of Christ.

This compromise between paganism and Christianity resulted in the development of "the man of sin" foretold in prophecy as opposing and exalting himself above God. That gigantic system of false religion is a masterpiece of Satan's power--a monument of his efforts to seat himself upon the throne to rule the earth according to his will....."excerpts from An Era of Spriritual Darkness"

[Cribstyl]

If you have no way to worship God, how can you truly have a relationship with Him and come to Love him. That's why the Sabbath was given as a gift and to keep paganism and heathenism from substituting worship to the sun gods of Baal or the earth gods, or wooden gods or any gods other than the true Creator.

Jhn 4:23 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jhn/Jhn004.html#23) But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.


Jhn 4:24 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jhn/Jhn004.html#24) God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.



What prophet or apostles are you quoting? Or is this another Gospel:scratch:
Dont get mad............Truth is the understanding of God's word. Where is the source of "your truth" found?

[reddogs]

But the day you worship is important to God as He set the Sabbath for worship and not the day of another god, that is were Gods truth and false traditions of man will be cut to the quick, and some will be told "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

[Eila]

They want the Sabbath truth to be hidden ever since they made the laws to change it to the pagan day os the sun:

What do you make of Jesus being raised from the dead (the most notable event ever!) on the pagan day of the sun?

What do you make of the Holy Spirit descending and infilling believers on the pagan day of the sun?

What do you make of the COI being commanded to have a sacred assembly on the pagan day of the sun?

[Eila]

But the day you worship is important to God as He set the Sabbath for worship and not the day of another god, that is were Gods truth and false traditions of man will be cut to the quick, and some will be told "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

Do you only worship God on one day a week? Is is wrong to worship God the rest of the week? Are there other gods who actually claim a day for worship? Worshiping God on a Sunday is working iniquity?

[Cribstyl]

If you have no way to worship God, how can you truly have a relationship with Him and come to Love him. That's why the Sabbath was given as a gift and to keep paganism and heathenism from substituting worship to the sun gods of Baal or the earth gods, or wooden gods or any gods other than the true Creator.

In spirit and in truth. It's like having unlimited anytime minutes on my cellphone.:D

Ask yourself when did COI began worship rather than resting on the Sabbath day?:scratch:

[Cribstyl]

www.jewfaq.org/shabbat.htm (http://www.jewfaq.org/shabbat.htm)
Sabbath cant be more real than is presented by this websight listed. Where are the Sabbatarians to agree or disagree with what is written here about the Sabbath.:scratch:

As Christians we are greatful for the hisotry of the Jewish people. We're even more thankful when they make The books of Moses true and easy to swallow.

It is my pray that God would bless them with even a greater revelation of Him.:amen:

[reddogs]

What man says matters not, what the Creator says to the created is what matters.......

Genesis 1:27 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=1&verse=27&version=31&context=verse)
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

[Cribstyl]

What man says matters not, what the Creator says to the created is what matters.......

Genesis 1:27 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=1&verse=27&version=31&context=verse)
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.


That text only validates that God is the creator of man....what is your point Reddogs?:scratch:


Here is what the creator says about His sabbaths.

Eze 20:12 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Eze/Eze020.html#12) Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I [am] the LORD that sanctify them.

So, Are you calling God a liar?:eek:

Why would God say that His sabbaths was given "between Himself and them" if His sabbath was ever given to Adam as a moral law for everyone to keep?

Who should we say "them" references?

Should we ignor bible text to make "reasoning" as truth and God's word optional?

CRIB

[djconklin]

Worshiping God on a Sunday is working iniquity?

I wouldn't call it iniquity, but since you asked you to worship Him on the Sabbath why wouldn't you?

[Eila]

I wouldn't call it iniquity, but since you asked you to worship Him on the Sabbath why wouldn't you?

I would think He wants us to worship Him everyday.

[mpossoff]

I would think He wants us to worship Him everyday.Yes we are to worship Him everyday of course but He also said:

“ Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God......“

Marc

[freeindeed2]

Yes we are to worship Him everyday of course but He also said:

“ Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God......“

Marc
If Jesus did not fulfill the law as he said he would, then not one 'jot or tittle' has disappeared from it and Israel is still obligated to keep it in it's entirety, including the sign of the old covenant/10 commandments, the Sabbath.

[Your Neighbor]

If Jesus did not fulfill the law as he said he would, then ...
Fulfilling something doesn't end it, unless you think all righteousness came to an end when Jesus was baptized!

Matt 3
14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? 15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

freeindeed2, tell the cop when he pulls you over for speeding that you fulfilled the speed limit 5 years ago, and see if he agrees that the speed limit doesn't apply anymore.

[mpossoff]

Fulfilling something doesn't end it, unless you think all righteousness came to an end when Jesus was baptized!If people would take the time and find out the Greek behind the translation they will discover that fulfill doesn't mean 'end it'.

In short fulfill in the Greek pleroo (Strong's 4137) meaning "fill up" "make complete" "fully preach" "to supply" and "to perfect

Think not that I am come to kataluo(to utterly destroy" or "overthrow completely) the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to pleroo( "make complete" "fully preach" "to supply" and "to perfect)

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in NO wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

Heaven and earth will pass away before the Law (Torah) will. Not one jot or tittle will be altered "until all be fulfilled." Has all been fulfilled? Has Jesus returned? Has all Israel been regathered back into the land of Israel? Has the Heavenly Kingdom been established here on earth? Not one stroke in Law ( Torah) will be changed in any way until all is fulfilled.

Marc

[freeindeed2]

Fulfilling something doesn't end it, unless you think all righteousness came to an end when Jesus was baptized!

Matt 3
14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? 15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
We're talking about the law-the old covenant here. We gain, or are credited with, the righteousness of Christ apart from the works of the law.

freeindeed2, tell the cop when he pulls you over for speeding that you fulfilled the speed limit 5 years ago, and see if he agrees that the speed limit doesn't apply anymore.
On what basis would my claim have any validity? How would I fulfill something that obviously condemned me? I would stand guilty before the judge, unless someone else were to stand in my place and taken my sentence for me.

The analogy fails because it doesn't take into account that we were born with a sinful nature. We are born infected to the core and Jesus is the only way to experience the transforming power of His Spirit living within us. We aren't sinners because we sin, we sin because we're sinners. That's why we need a Savior who became sin for us in order that we could be made righteous before God. He HAS ALREADY satisfied completely God's anger that was against us before being credited with His righteousness.

[freeindeed2]

If people would take the time and find out the Greek behind the translation they will discover that fulfill doesn't mean 'end it'.

In short fulfill in the Greek pleroo (Strong's 4137) meaning "fill up" "make complete" "fully preach" "to supply" and "to perfect"

Think not that I am come to kataluo(to utterly destroy" or "overthrow completely) the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to pleroo( "make complete" "fully preach" "to supply" and "to perfect)

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in NO wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

Heaven and earth will pass away before the Law (Torah) will. Not one jot or tittle will be altered "until all be fulfilled." Has all been fulfilled? Has Jesus returned? Has all Israel been regathered back into the land of Israel? Has the Heavenly Kingdom been established here on earth? Not one stroke in Law ( Torah) will be changed in any way until all is fulfilled.

Marc
Then you're in big trouble. If Jesus didn't fulfill (make complete) the law as he said he had come to do, then not even ONE 'jot or tittle' could possibly have disappeared from the entire law (all 613 Mitzvah). That would mean it's ALL still in place, including the penalties for breaking it commanded by God.

[mpossoff]

Then you're in big trouble. If Jesus didn't fulfill (make complete) the law as he said he had come to do, then not even ONE 'jot or tittle' could possibly have disappeared from the entire law (all 613 Mitzvah). That would mean it's ALL still in place, including the penalties for breaking it commanded by God.

Didn't the prophet say(unquote): He was bruised for our iniquity?

Was it or was it not prophesised that He would save us from iniquity and the penalties?

Are you saying that the Savior was a new concept in the New Testament and that it wasn't even thought of' in the Old Testament?

Marc

[freeindeed2]

Didn't the prophet say(unquote): He was bruised for our iniquity?

Was it or was it not prophesised that He would save us from iniquity and the penalties?

Are you saying that the Savior was a new concept in the New Testament and that it wasn't even thought of' in the Old Testament?

Marc
Marc, how would you pull the idea that Christ was a 'new concept' from what I posted? Sorry, that's a complete disconnect.

Did Jesus do what he said? Did he fulfill the law or not? If not then not 'one jot or tittle' has changed or disappeared from the law, including the penalty. It sounds like you're saying that he removed the penalty and parts of the law disappeared, but not all. So, in essence, Jesus fulfilled some parts but not others and he took the penalty. So if we break the parts that he did not fulfill is there still a penalty for doing so? Do you see the inconsistency in what you seem to be proposing?

If he didn't fulfill it all, then it is ALL still in force.

[mpossoff]

Marc, how would you pull the idea that Christ was a 'new concept' from what I posted? Sorry, that's a complete disconnect.

Did Jesus do what he said? Did he fulfill the law or not? If not then not 'one jot or tittle' has changed or disappeared from the law, including the penalty. It sounds like you're saying that he removed the penalty and parts of the law disappeared, but not all. So, in essence, Jesus fulfilled some parts but not others and he took the penalty. So if we break the parts that he did not fulfill is there still a penalty for doing so? Do you see the inconsistency in what you seem to be proposing?

If he didn't fulfill it all, then it is ALL still in force. He fulfilled the Law meaning in the Greek: fully preach, perfect, supply. He didn't end or abolish the law.What about the prophets?

Has all been fulfilled by the prophets?

But the Messiah hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, and hath been a curse for us; (for it is written, Cursed is everyone that is hanged on a tree;)

Not the law he has redeemed us but from the curse of the law. 'The wages of sin are death'

The Law itself isn't a curse which is often mis-interprated as such.

Marc