Sentamu warns of 'cynical culture'

[cavell]

The Church of England is failing in its duty to spread the message of Christ because it is preoccupied by issues like the ordination of homosexual priests, the Archbishop of York has warned.

Dr John Sentamu said there had been a "corporate failure" by the Church which had become engaged in "endless debates" about matters which had little to do with the Christian faith.

He warned that Britain was in danger of falling into a culture of "illiberal secularism", which denied spiritual faith and which was producing a "very cynical" culture.
"The Church has not been very good at clearly spelling out what the message of Jesus is about," he told the BBC Radio 4 Today programme.

"We have been indulging into a lot of debates which I don't think really have much to do sometimes with the Christian faith."
Dr Sentamu denied his comments were intended as a criticism of the leadership of the Archbishop of Canterbury, Dr Rowan Williams.

However, he acknowledged that one of his concerns was the debate over whether to ordain homosexual priests and bishops which is threatening to split the worldwide Anglican Communion.

"It is a corporate failure of the Church, not actually doing the ministry of Jesus Christ out in the world. All of us as members of the body of Christ need to do more," he said.

"What we should be about is telling people that God in Jesus has come in a human form, died, rose again and his presence, in terms of the spirit, actually transforms lives."
Dr Sentamu described the fall in of average attendances at church services as "worrying", and warned that the decline of traditional faith was having a damaging effect on society.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=447254&in_page_id=1770

[CSMR]

Yes. You do get positive presentations of what Christianity in many individual churches, but not in the public sphere. It requires a lot of energy and dedication to get it outside. Thankfully a few churches do have this.

[cavell]

Yes. You do get positive presentations of what Christianity in many individual churches, but not in the public sphere. It requires a lot of energy and dedication to get it outside. Thankfully a few churches do have this.
You are correct in this CSMR. As a Yorkshireman I can inform you that this recent 'Bishop of York' has brought a fresh invigoure to the outreach of the Church.

Has become renown in the County as a man of Faith.

Not interested in factual things like the Minster took 200 hundred years to build, or been standing for a thousand years, his position of renown with caviare lunches and such. Indeed not

Here we have a modern Christian Leader of the faith. "The faith once delivered to the saint's" A man who is aware that the message of the cross is the answer to national problems.

God Bless this man....and give him a trumpet voice, that this nation may yet again hear the gospel of God. The bible message that "Christ died for our sins, according to the scriptures"

Amen.........Amen Have a lovely Easter.

[Simon_Templar]

I can agree that it is a sad damnable state that the church is taken up with such debates and distracted from doing the actual work of the Kingdom of Heaven. However, I would have to point out that if we want to start telling people that the Spirit of God can transform lives... we would have to, at the very least, agree that lives need to be transformed. If that isn't hard enough these days.. we would also probably have to have some sort of agreement about the kind of transformation which needs to occur.

In the end, when you get right down to the 'brass tacks' as it were... that what all these debates are really about.

[cavell]

When the Apostle Paul came to Corinth he realised that he would need more than a good argument, in his mission to establish a church.

Corinth at that time in history, was as immoral, as fallen, as debauched as any area or city we might recall in the world today. A cosmopolitan city, on the sea, masters and slaves, rich and poor continually passing through.

Entering the synagogue Paul stated that he had not come to Corinth with the wisdom of men.......but "in demonstration of the Holy Spirit and of power"

Take stock as we look at the established church today. It is such a time as this that we need such "demonstration of the Holy Spirit and of power"

We talk of......we quote men......but only God can help the nation today. We are true to the gospel cause, and gospel power, and we know this.

Let us be encouraged as we pray knowing that "nothing is too difficult for Him"

[Adammi]

I don't understand if this article is saying that ordaining homosexuals is the problem or that the ongoing debate about ordaining homosexuals is the problem.

[brightmorningstar]

I think it is both. John Sentamu is a good man of God and a wonderful breath of fresh air in the CofE in my opinion. In fact vital for the CofE which I believe is somewhat behind most of the Christian churches in the UK in getting the good news accross.
As to the debates, we actually have a decision/agreement, its Lambeth 1.10 and Windsor. The problem seems to be the unrelenting pressure and voice of dissenting voices in the church like in the TEC and pressure groups like LGCM, inclusivechurch, changingattitude and the like.
Those who believe Lambeth 1.10 dont want to talk about homosexuality, it is those who dont who keep mentioning and campainging to the contrary.
I think it is also difficult to spread the good news of what Christ has done if it has a major flaw, ie if we celebrate one of the sins that Jesus has died to free us from condemnation of.

[brightmorningstar]

Certainly John Sentamu has been bold and spoken out on a wide range of issues, something many in the UK have been hoping church leaders would do.
He is definately very focussed on God's will and not on man's arguments. I believe when we have to give account to Jesus on judgement day, our reward in heaven will be on what we have have done for the Kingdom, not on who we have argued with.

[cavell]

Certainly John Sentamu has been bold and spoken out on a wide range of issues, something many in the UK have been hoping church leaders would do.
He is definately very focussed on God's will and not on man's arguments. I believe when we have to give account to Jesus on judgement day, our reward in heaven will be on what we have have done for the Kingdom, not on who we have argued with.


Absolutely.......without doubt.

Thanks for pointing that out to us.

[cavell]

I don't understand if this article is saying that ordaining homosexuals is the problem or that the ongoing debate about ordaining homosexuals is the problem.
Both are.......in my bible.....and in my opinion as a result. Rom ch 1 v 16 to end

[brightmorningstar]

What is the motive of this thread exactly. I believe John Sentamu's main point is the gospel as opposed to illiberal secularism. I think the issue of same-sex sex is not for the world, the world needs to know God's love through Jesus Christ. The issue of same-sex sex is for the church and the life through Christ Jesus. The problem is, if the life free from sin, that Christ has made the way for, is changed to include the sin whats the gospel?

[cavell]

What is the motive of this thread exactly. I believe John Sentamu's main point is the gospel as opposed to illiberal secularism. I think the issue of same-sex sex is not for the world, the world needs to know God's love through Jesus Christ. The issue of same-sex sex is for the church and the life through Christ Jesus. The problem is, if the life free from sin, that Christ has made the way for, is changed to include the sin whats the gospel?



What is the motive of this thread exactly.



Certainly John Sentamu has been bold and spoken out on a wide range of issues, something many in the UK have been hoping church leaders would do.
He is definately very focussed on God's will and not on man's arguments. I believe when we have to give account to Jesus on judgement day, our reward in heaven will be on what we have have done for the Kingdom, not on who we have argued with.(brightmorningstar)


You have summed up the 'motive for this thread' in your earlier post. With which I agree 100%


I am becoming more aware, and would make others aware that this man, Archbishop of York, is a 'Champion of Christianity' And what as I see it, our Nation requires today.

This year we are celebrating the 200th anniversary of the abolishment of slavery and slave trading in this country. This was a wonderful achievement accomplished by one man. Changing the nation in this matter forever. (he also abolished the national lottery of that day......ouch)

We need, are desperate I believe for the likes of such men today. Champions of righteousness, veracity, integrity and such. The kind of thought with which our fore fathers made the nation renown. Only such can stem the tide...........

"Righteousness exalteth a nation, but sin is a reproach to any people"

God Bless him is my sincere prayer.

[norbie]

I do agree that the Church needs People like John Sentamo, but...
every coin got two sides. If we can't get 'our house in order first' and show to the World a complete Unity, then Outreach won't work - the World don't believe in us. You hear comments like "look at them, they are preaching to us and look at their own backjard".
I think if we want to outreach to the World we have to be clean ourself, we have to live a Christlike Live "the other 6 days a week".
Its great to have People like this, but we all have to work very hard to make his call believeable to the World.
Norbie

[cavell]

I do agree that the Church needs People like John Sentamo, but...
every coin got two sides. If we can't get 'our house in order first' and show to the World a complete Unity, then Outreach won't work - the World don't believe in us. You hear comments like "look at them, they are preaching to us and look at their own backjard".
I think if we want to outreach to the World we have to be clean ourself, we have to live a Christlike Live "the other 6 days a week".
Its great to have People like this, but we all have to work very hard to make his call believeable to the World.

Norbie


I agree with your sentiments. But we can dismiss the accusation of the world. The Lord is fully aware that we His children are far from perfect.

It is not anything that we can do for God or the Church that will finally add up to anything,.... it is what He has done for us.....that has saving quality...Amen? It is our acceptance, belief, and trust in what he has done on the cross that brings Salvation.

Jesus delivered folks from oppression, and blessed, and healed, and was accused of the most awful things. Even association with the devil.

I mentioned earlier that William Wilberforce took 20 years to bring about the abolishment of slavery in England. 200 years back this year.

But when we think about the church, we think about the power of God. God can do things very quickly. So we His church should not be discouraged.

[brightmorningstar]

It may be worth noting that the unity described in the NT is unity in love and the word of Christ (Col 3), peace in the Spirit, (Eph 4), in faith and the and in the knowledge of the Son of God, to know God through Jesus Christ John 17, with one heart and mouth glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Romans 15.
The church could be unified but not in these things, it could be unified in different things.

[ContraMundum]

Too little, too late. It's over, folks. The church lost. Britian and Europe are doomed and destined for rampant secularism and people seeking their "spirituality" in Islam and Eastern religions. The church imploded in a fog of debate and liberalism. Pack up and move to America. There's enough fundies and evangelicals there to make a safe haven for all Christians. Either that or go to Eastern Europe where ethnic bigotry and unmoving Eastern Orthodoxy keep the place Christian and free from the Satanic Jihad. They don't muck around there. See: Kosovo

[higgs2]

Too little, too late. It's over, folks. The church lost. Britian and Europe are doomed and destined for rampant secularism and people seeking their "spirituality" in Islam and Eastern religions. The church imploded in a fog of debate and liberalism. Pack up and move to America. There's enough fundies and evangelicals there to make a safe haven for all Christians. Either that or go to Eastern Europe where ethnic bigotry and unmoving Eastern Orthodoxy keep the place Christian and free from the Satanic Jihad. They don't muck around there. See: Kosovo

:o :eek: :scratch:

:P

[brightmorningstar]

Well of course Jesus already has the victory, but not necessarily too little to late in political terms anyway. The present straw that breaks the camel's back in the UK is SOR's in my opinion where Christian rights have been trampled over by gay rights, the government may be realising that there are a lot more Christians not happy with this than there are gays and lesbians... so the voting may reflect this. Already the Roman Catholic church is asking its members to quiz election candidates.

Sentamu on the other hand is making positive statements which champion a better way of life through the teaching and example of Jesus Christ, something a large number of people are in favour of.

[cavell]

Hello ContraMundum


Too little, too late. It's over, folks. The church lost. Britian and Europe are doomed and destined for rampant secularism and people seeking their "spirituality" in Islam and Eastern religions. The church imploded in a fog of debate and liberalism. Pack up and move to America. There's enough fundies and evangelicals there to make a safe haven for all Christians. Either that or go to Eastern Europe where ethnic bigotry and unmoving Eastern Orthodoxy keep the place Christian and free from the Satanic Jihad. They don't muck around there. See: Kosovo "ContraMundum"


I see that you have the great man Wesley, in your Avatar. Which one?

While John preached Charles would embrace the message in a hymn written on the back of an envelope. And things were much worse in that day....

Britain and Europe are not doomed. I believe that Europe will take centre world stage in the near future.

Christianity is so different from religions worldwide.
Jesus is alive. We do not worship at the footstool of religious man.

We look around Western countries today and in the matter the religious heart, we could be depressed.

But Christianity does not worship a dead manUp from the grave He arose, with a mighty triumph oe'r his foes......"

Sorry................................losing type

[norbie]

Too little, too late. It's over, folks. The church lost. Britian and Europe are doomed and destined for rampant secularism and people seeking their "spirituality" in Islam and Eastern religions. The church imploded in a fog of debate and liberalism. Pack up and move to America. There's enough fundies and evangelicals there to make a safe haven for all Christians. Either that or go to Eastern Europe where ethnic bigotry and unmoving Eastern Orthodoxy keep the place Christian and free from the Satanic Jihad. They don't muck around there. See: Kosovo
My Dear Friend,
nothing is ever to late, remember what Jesus said about that Satan will never overcome our Christian Church.
But move to America??
Now this would be the last thing to do with their homosexual Bishops???
But I have to agree with you that the Islam is the fastes growing Religion, even in America. And why?
It's our Churches fault. We don't preach the Patriachic Family any more, some of our Women come dressed very sexy even to Church Service, shoulder free, deep decoltee and so on. What I try to say is we have to be more "fair thinkum", more strict in our Religion. We have to speak out against Politican if they are against our Believe and so on..
But Jesus Church will never, ever be finish anywhere!
Norbie

[higgs2]

My Dear Friend,
nothing is ever to late, remember what Jesus said about that Satan will never overcome our Christian Church.
But move to America??
Now this would be the last thing to do with their homosexual Bishops???
But I have to agree with you that the Islam is the fastes growing Religion, even in America. And why?
It's our Churches fault. We don't preach the Patriachic Family any more, some of our Women come dressed very sexy even to Church Service, shoulder free, deep decoltee and so on. What I try to say is we have to be more "fair thinkum", more strict in our Religion. We have to speak out against Politican if they are against our Believe and so on..
But Jesus Church will never, ever be finish anywhere!
Norbie

I don't even know how to respond to this. :confused:

[karen freeinchristman]

Britain and Europe are not doomed. I believe that Europe will take centre world stage in the near future.

Christianity is so different from religions worldwide.
Jesus is alive. We do not worship at the footstool of religious man.

We look around Western countries today and in the matter the religious heart, we could be depressed.

But Christianity does not worship a dead manUp from the grave He arose, with a mighty triumph oe'r his foes......"
:thumbsup: :clap:

My Dear Friend,
nothing is ever to late, remember what Jesus said about that Satan will never overcome our Christian Church.
But move to America??
Now this would be the last thing to do with their homosexual Bishops???
But I have to agree with you that the Islam is the fastes growing Religion, even in America. And why?
It's our Churches fault. We don't preach the Patriachic Family any more, some of our Women come dressed very sexy even to Church Service, shoulder free, deep decoltee and so on. What I try to say is we have to be more "fair thinkum", more strict in our Religion. We have to speak out against Politican if they are against our Believe and so on..
But Jesus Church will never, ever be finish anywhere!
NorbieNorbie, I agree that Jesus' Church will never be finished. :) However...

The Patriarchal society is not going to return (thank the Lord). Marriage should rightly be egalitarian. Equating a drop in Church attendance with the downfall of patriarchy is delusional, in my view.

(I will say, though, that I agree with you on the point that Christian women (and men) should dress modestly so as to avoid provoking others to lust!)

[ContraMundum]

Hello ContraMundum



I see that you have the great man Wesley, in your Avatar. Which one?

That's Charles. :)

Britain and Europe are not doomed. I believe that Europe will take centre world stage in the near future.

I like positive thinking. I'd really like your words on how you see that happening. All I see is doooooooom, doooooooooom I tell ya! :eek:

;)

We look around Western countries today and in the matter the religious heart, we could be depressed.

I am depressed about it. Truly. I fear for the West of Europe. Did you know that at one Mosque in Germany there is around 12 converts to Islam a week (not Muslims being born into Muslim families, or migrants of that faith arriving, no German people converting) and a plummeting church attendance all over the place. Doom.

I honestly think this could be God's punishment too.

[ContraMundum]

The Patriarchal society is not going to return (thank the Lord).

Ummmm....what's with this "Patriarchal society" thing you have mentioned more than once now? Is this a theme at your seminary?

I'd like to see a thread on it, actually.

[karen freeinchristman]

Ummmm....what's with this "Patriarchal society" thing you have mentioned more than once now? Is this a theme at your seminary?

I'd like to see a thread on it, actually.
I'll try to post a thread when time permits. :bow: ;)

[norbie]

I think there needs to be a little more explanation for my above Post. Looks like I did upset our Ladies for which I apologiese.
What I was trying to get across with my "Patriachal Family" was not ment to go back to Abraham's Time and treat Women like Slaves and Servants. You will remember that in the Women Pastors Thread, how much I stood up in Favour of Women Pastors. And full Equality of Women in every way of life.
But the Church doesn't preach Family Values anymore! And this was my point I try to make. My Example here is my own Family: when we got married Elizabeth went to work in an Office. When the first Child arrived she stayed home, then come the second Child. To make a long story short, Elizabeth stayed home for 15 years to be with my two Boys. You must see the Wert in it: when a Child comes home from School for example there was a snack ready, there was someone to listen to all the 'exiting' stories and so on. This can never be replaced in Life, and today they still discuss their Girlfriend with Mum. And after the time home, Elizabeth did a IT Degree at the UNI and is Library Manager today, just to proof it can be done. Thats what I talk about Patriachial Family Values. And I know some of you will stone me for this, but I think that when you put two Women together for Job Valueation, one with two UNI Diploma and one fulltime Mother, the Mother winns.
You must also think that to keep a job cost money in Childcare, Clothes Petrol and so on.
And this is were the Churches have to come in: to preach and promote true Family Values, and our Churches will grow.
BTW I am realy looking forward to Dear Karen starting up a Thread on Patriachal Society,
Norbie

[norbie]

"I am depressed about it. Truly. I fear for the West of Europe. Did you know that at one Mosque in Germany there is around 12 converts to Islam a week (not Muslims being born into Muslim families, or migrants of that faith arriving, no German people converting) and a plummeting church attendance all over the place."

And this is exactly my point: people are searching, and you can be sure that some of the female Converts know exactly their new Place in the Family. And they wanted, they want to look up to their Man, to guide them.
The Women feel protected by the Islamic Religion.
We can learn from this I think.
Norbie

[ContraMundum]

The point is this: people will always be searching for spiritual answers. But, has Western Christianity already soiled its reputation too much to actually have any credibility with serious seekers? I think so.

[norbie]

The point is this: people will always be searching for spiritual answers. But, has Western Christianity already soiled its reputation too much to actually have any credibility with serious seekers? I think so.
Yes you are so right! The Western Church will have to 're-invent' itself to archive credibility.
As we would say here in Australia 'you have to be fair thinkum' in what we do.
It sounds very cruel, but I would say that the example of some so called Christian in the western World turn People away from our Church.
Norbie

[higgs2]

I think there needs to be a little more explanation for my above Post. Looks like I did upset our Ladies for which I apologiese.
What I was trying to get across with my "Patriachal Family" was not ment to go back to Abraham's Time and treat Women like Slaves and Servants. You will remember that in the Women Pastors Thread, how much I stood up in Favour of Women Pastors. And full Equality of Women in every way of life.
But the Church doesn't preach Family Values anymore! And this was my point I try to make. My Example here is my own Family: when we got married Elizabeth went to work in an Office. When the first Child arrived she stayed home, then come the second Child. To make a long story short, Elizabeth stayed home for 15 years to be with my two Boys. You must see the Wert in it: when a Child comes home from School for example there was a snack ready, there was someone to listen to all the 'exiting' stories and so on. This can never be replaced in Life, and today they still discuss their Girlfriend with Mum. And after the time home, Elizabeth did a IT Degree at the UNI and is Library Manager today, just to proof it can be done. Thats what I talk about Patriachial Family Values. And I know some of you will stone me for this, but I think that when you put two Women together for Job Valueation, one with two UNI Diploma and one fulltime Mother, the Mother winns.
You must also think that to keep a job cost money in Childcare, Clothes Petrol and so on.
And this is were the Churches have to come in: to preach and promote true Family Values, and our Churches will grow.
BTW I am realy looking forward to Dear Karen starting up a Thread on Patriachal Society,
Norbie


I'm just trying to clarify: So your concern is that women aren't staying home to raise their children enough these days? ANd the church should be encouraging that?

BTW, I have been a stay at home mom for 10 years, although I've go a quarter time job with my church now. So I'm not personally insulted by your statements because of my personal situation, so be honest.

[Paladin_Mark]

The debate should have ended ages ago. Whats right is pretty clear in my opinion.

I do agree with Sentamu too .

[norbie]

I'm just trying to clarify: So your concern is that women aren't staying home to raise their children enough these days? ANd the church should be encouraging that?

BTW, I have been a stay at home mom for 10 years, although I've go a quarter time job with my church now. So I'm not personally insulted by your statements because of my personal situation, so be honest.
So sorry, I didn't want to insult you or any other Lady, it's just my Few of thinking, of a true Family Life,
Norbie

[higgs2]

So sorry, I didn't want to insult you or any other Lady, it's just my Few of thinking, of a true Family Life,
Norbie

not insulted a bit. Just trying to clarify what you mean.

My single mom friends would say they have a "true Family Life". ANd my priest, who was a stay at home dad for a number of years with their kids while his wife climbed the corporate ladder would also say he has a "true Family LIfe".

:)

[norbie]

not insulted a bit. Just trying to clarify what you mean.

My single mom friends would say they have a "true Family Life". ANd my priest, who was a stay at home dad for a number of years with their kids while his wife climbed the corporate ladder would also say he has a "true Family LIfe".

:)
You got it right, both your single Mother and your Priest would be at home when the Children come home from School.
And this IS the whole point I try to make. Of course time have changed and the Government Policy is mostly directed at 2 money earning Person in a Family, so it is clear that when a Women can climb the corporate ladder she will bring in the needed money.
But here arrise my question: will a Women who is high up the corporate ladder and earn lots of money, and is married for example to a Labour, will she still look up to her man, will he have decission to make for both of them?? Or do we defy the natural way that a Woman will gladly look up to their man??
This are interesting things to discuss from the Christian Point of view, and I mean lovingly discuss in a CF.
Norbie

[higgs2]

You got it right, both your single Mother and your Priest would be at home when the Children come home from School.
And this IS the whole point I try to make. Of course time have changed and the Government Policy is mostly directed at 2 money earning Person in a Family, so it is clear that when a Women can climb the corporate ladder she will bring in the needed money.
But here arrise my question: will a Women who is high up the corporate ladder and earn lots of money, and is married for example to a Labour, will she still look up to her man, will he have decission to make for both of them?? Or do we defy the natural way that a Woman will gladly look up to their man??
This are interesting things to discuss from the Christian Point of view, and I mean lovingly discuss in a CF.
Norbie

Oh dear.

[norbie]

Oh dear.
And what this suppose to mean? LOL
But you and a lot of others are in the Theology Team, so you could explain the biblical relationship between man and woman?
Norbie

[karen freeinchristman]

And what this suppose to mean? LOL
But you and a lot of others are in the Theology Team, so you could explain the biblical relationship between man and woman?
Norbie
Norbie, I don't think being on the Theology Team means that those people are expert theologians! They are simply moderatoring the theology forums for rule breaches.

Your question about the biblical relationship between man and woman is something we will probably get deeper into when I can start a 'patriarchal society' thread.

I question the need for a woman to be earning less money than a man or be in a lower-powered job in order for her to 'look up to' her husband. This is really a question of what qualities we consider to be admirable. Additionally, I question the idea that husbands are supposed to make the decisions in a marriage.

[SirTimothy]

The Biblical model is that the man should lead by service, as Christ leads his church by serving her.

Tim

[cavell]

The Biblical model is that the man should lead by service, as Christ leads his church by serving her.

Tim
Sounds good to me, and I believe it.

A man should love his wife ....."as Christ loved the Church"

Now there's an example.

[ContraMundum]

Yes you are so right! The Western Church will have to 're-invent' itself to archive credibility.
As we would say here in Australia 'you have to be fair thinkum' in what we do.
It sounds very cruel, but I would say that the example of some so called Christian in the western World turn People away from our Church.
Norbie

Well norbie, I don't think the church can be fair dinkum until it sorts itself out. It's impossible to "re-invent" the church, we can only to clean house. However, where the rot has set in permanently , it is impossible even to clean house.

As for hypocrisy in the church, we'll always have that. It's how we deal with it that gives us either a witness for the world to see Christ or a witness against us.

Anyway, I don't think the church can or will recover in Western Europe. It's over.

[karen freeinchristman]

Anyway, I don't think the church can or will recover in Western Europe. It's over.
I'm curious as to why 'Western Europe' is singled out here. Please can you expound on this?

[ContraMundum]

I'm curious as to why 'Western Europe' is singled out here. Please can you expound on this?

I'm gonna be hated for this, but the churches there have forgotten to be missionary, have become to self-obsessed with the controversies that are inevitable with modernism in the church, the scandals and general wishy-washyness have made the church look too accomodating to trends and have basically they have lost street cred.

Furthermore, immigration trends have naturally brought new ideas and in particular introduced other religions to the west. With the credibility of the churches challenged, people seeking to explore their spirituality have been looking to other religions besides Christianity, and those religions have been well equipped to deal with the seekers.
In marketing terms, Christianity flooded the market, and then sought to compensate with a flawed, non-genuine product. Now the customers are buying from the opposition,and the church is still selling the same bad product, which the board of directors seems bent on enshrining forever.

It's over. Too little too late.

[cavell]

Anyway, I don't think the church can or will recover in Western Europe. It's over.


This is such a pity.....and from a Christian man!

The bible says that "without faith it is impossible to please God" The above quote is faithless

Men forget that the Lord God Almighty is in control of the affairs of men. Who said the world, and all that transpires therein had been abandoned by God, or had been left to its own devices? Have I missed an announcement?

God has left man to his own devices, "its all over"......Perish the thought. I am so pleased that the faith I received through saving faith in Jesus, has caused me to be optimistic realising the my God is an Awesome God who reigns in heaven above.

The great man said in his day when all seemed lost, "We have an anchor fastened to that within the vail steadfast and sure"

The Church cannot go under for going over......the Master is on board.

[CSMR]

I'm gonna be hated for this, but the churches there have forgotten to be missionary, have become to self-obsessed with the controversies that are inevitable with modernism in the church, the scandals and general wishy-washyness have made the church look too accomodating to trends and have basically they have lost street cred.
This is very oblivious to the different parts of the Anglican church or to the different churches in the UK. Only some of them are as you say.

[norbie]

I'm gonna be hated for this, but the churches there have forgotten to be missionary, have become to self-obsessed with the controversies that are inevitable with modernism in the church, the scandals and general wishy-washyness have made the church look too accomodating to trends and have basically they have lost street cred.

Furthermore, immigration trends have naturally brought new ideas and in particular introduced other religions to the west. With the credibility of the churches challenged, people seeking to explore their spirituality have been looking to other religions besides Christianity, and those religions have been well equipped to deal with the seekers.
In marketing terms, Christianity flooded the market, and then sought to compensate with a flawed, non-genuine product. Now the customers are buying from the opposition,and the church is still selling the same bad product, which the board of directors seems bent on enshrining forever.

It's over. Too little too late.
I have to agree with you, except the last sentence. It's never to late, God IS in charge and will change the mind of some Church Leaders. Gods Church will never go under - He got a Purpose for everything.
But I agree with the wishy - washyiness, it cost the Church dearly on members and not only in Europe.
Norbie

[higgs2]

I don't know about "The Church" (other than being anywhere the word is purely preached and the sacraments are administered which is a lot of places). But my church is alive and thriving. New propery, building project, new programs, youth group, Godly Play, youth choir, many community service projects, and a lively attendance especially since we are in transition. ANd that's because a lot of people are out there in the world fullfilling their ministries and not going on about the end of THE CHURCH. I have faith! I have hope! I believe in God's promises and his love for us.

[norbie]

I don't know about "The Church" (other than being anywhere the word is purely preached and the sacraments are administered which is a lot of places). But my church is alive and thriving. New propery, building project, new programs, youth group, Godly Play, youth choir, many community service projects, and a lively attendance especially since we are in transition. ANd that's because a lot of people are out there in the world fullfilling their ministries and not going on about the end of THE CHURCH. I have faith! I have hope! I believe in God's promises and his love for us.
Yes, Amen to this!
Norbie

[karen freeinchristman]

This is such a pity.....and from a Christian man!

The bible says that "without faith it is impossible to please God" The above quote is faithless

Men forget that the Lord God Almighty is in control of the affairs of men. Who said the world, and all that transpires therein had been abandoned by God, or had been left to its own devices? Have I missed an announcement?

God has left man to his own devices, "its all over"......Perish the thought. I am so pleased that the faith I received through saving faith in Jesus, has caused me to be optimistic realising the my God is an Awesome God who reigns in heaven above.

The great man said in his day when all seemed lost, "We have an anchor fastened to that within the vail steadfast and sure"

The Church cannot go under for going over......the Master is on board.Amen, brother! :thumbsup:

I don't know about "The Church" (other than being anywhere the word is purely preached and the sacraments are administered which is a lot of places). But my church is alive and thriving. New propery, building project, new programs, youth group, Godly Play, youth choir, many community service projects, and a lively attendance especially since we are in transition. ANd that's because a lot of people are out there in the world fullfilling their ministries and not going on about the end of THE CHURCH. I have faith! I have hope! I believe in God's promises and his love for us.Yes, amen! :clap:

[ContraMundum]

This is such a pity.....and from a Christian man!

The bible says that "without faith it is impossible to please God" The above quote is faithless

Men forget that the Lord God Almighty is in control of the affairs of men. Who said the world, and all that transpires therein had been abandoned by God, or had been left to its own devices? Have I missed an announcement?

God has left man to his own devices, "its all over"......Perish the thought. I am so pleased that the faith I received through saving faith in Jesus, has caused me to be optimistic realising the my God is an Awesome God who reigns in heaven above.

The great man said in his day when all seemed lost, "We have an anchor fastened to that within the vail steadfast and sure"

The Church cannot go under for going over......the Master is on board.

Wait a minute here...while optimism is emotionally satifying to some, reality is a far better way to interpret the world.

Simply put, to say that the church has failed in her mission in Europe and elsewhere is a completely different thing to say that Christ has abandoned her. In fact, I'm kind of insulted that my words would be twisted so absurdly, but I'll let it slide this time.

Fact: the future of the church and as seen in the history of salvation itself, will not be nor has ever been a bed of roses for the elect. God chastises His people and even leads them through tribulations, exiles and persecutions- all according to His will. One would not need to be a terribly well read scholar to work out that God rarely rewards disloyalty and worldliness. However, even though He allows such calamity and has foretold of more to come, He will not abandon His faithful.

It's all well and good to convince oneself that all is OK, but I am reminded of many passages in the OT that speak of such optimism before God-ordained tribulations.

[ContraMundum]

I don't know about "The Church" (other than being anywhere the word is purely preached and the sacraments are administered which is a lot of places). But my church is alive and thriving. New propery, building project, new programs, youth group, Godly Play, youth choir, many community service projects, and a lively attendance especially since we are in transition. ANd that's because a lot of people are out there in the world fullfilling their ministries and not going on about the end of THE CHURCH. I have faith! I have hope! I believe in God's promises and his love for us.

Well, my church is doing fine too. But, we're not in Western Europe facing the decline of our culture- yet. As I said earlier, churches in the US and Eastern Europe will always fare better than those in more liberal societies.

[karen freeinchristman]

I can't speak for the rest of Western Europe, but here in the UK, the decline in the church has many varied reasons. I agree that the church has not been as active in its mission as it should be, but I think that is partly due to the previous condition of being a Christian nation - following on from that has meant we have collectively forgotten how to evangelise, because we havent' had to for centuries. We are still good at the pastoral aspects of mission, but have fallen down in the area of getting the word of the gospel out there. But the church is responding, and great things are happening. It needs to gain more momentum, and I do believe that it will. This is what the optimism is about.

[ContraMundum]

I can't speak for the rest of Western Europe, but here in the UK, the decline in the church has many varied reasons. I agree that the church has not been as active in its mission as it should be, but I think that is partly due to the previous condition of being a Christian nation - following on from that has meant we have collectively forgotten how to evangelise, because we havent' had to for centuries. We are still good at the pastoral aspects of mission, but have fallen down in the area of getting the word of the gospel out there.

Right...and the church is losing the battle of apologetics as well.

But the church is responding, and great things are happening. It needs to gain more momentum, and I do believe that it will. This is what the optimism is about.

I'll believe that when I see it. Right now I think the Church over there is suffering from a form of cognitive dissonance when I hear things like this.

[CSMR]

Well, my church is doing fine too. But, we're not in Western Europe facing the decline of our culture- yet. As I said earlier, churches in the US and Eastern Europe will always fare better than those in more liberal societies.
Liberalism (as used in the US) as a political philsophy/religion has its home in the US. Secularism as a whole is another thing.
Why do you think churches in the US are faring better than in the UK?

[norbie]

Right...and the church is losing the battle of apologetics as well.



I'll believe that when I see it. Right now I think the Church over there is suffering from a form of cognitive dissonance when I hear things like this.
"I'll believe that when I see it"

And God will show you. I only can talk for Australia, the Newcastle Diocese. But our new Bishop is changing our Diocese to a 'Missionary Church'. Layety is trained and study right up to a UNI Degree, its happening and its great. Praise the Lord!
Norbie

[ContraMundum]

Liberalism (as used in the US) as a political philsophy/religion has its home in the US. Secularism as a whole is another thing.

True- although I think theological liberalism is born from Central Europe, not the US. This is generally accepted. However, the US, as with just about everything, has a wide array of points of view, each loudly hailing itself, so on the surface of things it could be seen as the motherland of just about anything.

Why do you think churches in the US are faring better than in the UK?

I think the numbers speak for themselves.

[ContraMundum]

"I'll believe that when I see it"

And God will show you. I only can talk for Australia, the Newcastle Diocese. But our new Bishop is changing our Diocese to a 'Missionary Church'. Layety is trained and study right up to a UNI Degree, its happening and its great. Praise the Lord!
Norbie

Good point. Lots of good stuff happens religiously in Australia.

[norbie]

True- although I think theological liberalism is born from Central Europe, not the US. This is generally accepted. However, the US, as with just about everything, has a wide array of points of view, each loudly hailing itself, so on the surface of things it could be seen as the motherland of just about anything.



I think the numbers speak for themselves.
I believe that "theological Liberalismus" must not be promoted, doesn't matter were it come from. Churches are going to "anything goes" as long as we get new Members. This is wrong I believe and realy not in contend with the Bible.
Norbie

[cavell]

The late Paris Reidhead was a missionary in Africa for many years
and continued his effective ministry in the States pastoring and
preaching. The following excerpt comes from his sermon "Ten Shekels and
a Shirt" (from Judges 17 & 18) and sounds as fresh and pertinent today
as when it was preached in the mid 1960s. Following are exerpts.

PRAGMATISM

Would I be out of line if I were to talk to you for a little while about
utilitarian religion and expedient Christianity? And a youthful God? I
would like to call attention to the fact that our day is a day which the
ruling philosophy is pragmatism. You understand what I mean by
pragmatism, pragmatism means if it works it's true. If it succeeds it's
good. And the test of all practices, all principles, all truth, so
called all teaching, is do they work? Do they work? Now -according to
pragmatism, the greatest failures of the ages have been some of the men
God has honored most.

For instance, whereas Noah was a mighty good ship builder, his main
occupation wasn't ship building, it was preaching. He was a terrible
failure as a preacher. His wife and three children and their wives are
all he had. Seven converts in 120 years, you wouldn't call that
particularly effective.

And then we come down across the years to another man by the name of
Jeremiah. He was a mighty effective preacher, but ineffective as far as
results were concerned. If you were to measure statistically how
successful Jeremiah was, he would probably get a large cipher. For we
find that he lost out with the people, he lost out with royalty, even
the ministerial association voted against him and wouldn't have anything
to do with him. He had everything fail. The only one he seemed able to
please was.... God, but otherwise he was a distinct failure.

And then we come to another well known person, the Lord Jesus Christ,
who was a failure from judging all the standards. He never succeeded in
organizing a church or denomination. He wasn't able to build a school.
He didn't succeed in getting a mission board established. He never had a
book printed.

The question comes then to this, "what is the standard of success and by
what are we going to judge our lives and our ministry?" And the question
that you are going to ask yourself, "Is God an end or is He a means?"
Our generation is prepared to honor successful choices. As long as a
person can get things done or get the job done then our generation is
prepared to say well done.

And so we've got to ask ourselves at the very outset of our ministry,
and our pilgrimage, and our walk, "Are we going to be Levites who serve
God for ten shekels and a shirt?" (Judges 17:7-11), serve men perhaps in
the name of God, rather than God. For though he was a Levite and
performed religious activities, he was looking for a place, which would
give him recognition, a place which would give him acceptance, a place
which would give him security, a place where he could shine in terms of
those values which were important to him. His whole business was serving
in religious activities, so it had to be a religious job. He was very
happy when he found that Micah had an opening. But he had decided that
he was worth ten shekels and a shirt, and he was prepared to sell
himself to anyone that would give that much. If somebody came along and
gave more, he would sell himself to them (Judges 18:18-20). But he put a
value upon himself and he figured then his religious service and his
activities were just a means to an end, and by the same token, God was a
means to an end

Let's be done, once and for all, with utilitarian Christianity that
makes God a means, instead of the glorious END that He is. Let's resign,
let's tell Micah we're through. We're no longer going to be his priests
serving for ten shekels and a shirt. And let's come and cast ourselves
at the feet of the nail pierced Son of God and tell Him that we're going
to obey Him, and love Him, and serve Him, as long as we live BECAUSE HE
IS WORTHY!

http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninf...ID=10180222445 (http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=10180222445)